S04.E07: Chapter Seven: The Massacre at Hawkins Lab

[Quark]

This episode was bonkers. That twist at the end - genius.

The cast of this show is absolutely fantastic.

[Snow Fairy]

On 6/12/2022 at 8:11 PM, Taryn74 said:

I'm not 100% on this, but I think what happened is that the explosion pulled Hopper into the Upside Down, and then he popped back out of the Upside Down at the "sister site" in Russia. There was probably already a Gate in Russia, which would explain how they had a demogorgon. The Russians who we saw knock Hopper out were watching the video feed and saw Joyce turn the keys and pieced together what was happening and just proceeded from there.

That's my working theory at the moment.

When they changed scenes in this episode, there was a scene in Russia with the snow and my husband and I both said it looked like the Upside Down because the snow falling. I am glad we were not the only ones thinking that

[threebluestars]

I was starting to think One was a clone of Papa, so I didn't see the reveal he was One coming. I never pick up on these twists lol.

[DrSpaceman73]

I knew he was going to turn out to be 001. 

Did not at all see the rest coming.  

These are some long ass episodes!  Each one is like movie length. 

[Clanstarling]

16 hours ago, threebluestars said:

I was starting to think One was a clone of Papa, so I didn't see the reveal he was One coming. I never pick up on these twists lol.

I'm not generally good at picking up on the twists either. So you have company. 😊

[Emily Thrace]

On 6/14/2022 at 10:44 PM, Starry-Eyed said:

That super bugged me, since I interpreted Nancy's instant dive after Steve to be about Barb - she lost one friend to the Upside Down because of inaction/not paying attention, and like hell is she letting it happen ever again. Vecna targeting her guilt over Barb seemed to confirm that too.

Steve is my favorite character, but I would really rather not see him and Nancy together. IDK why, but Nancy is extremely shippable with all the "older teen" characters, though. Pretty sure Nancy's straight, but there's some chemistry between her and Robin, and even Eddie seems slightly attracted to her, and that doomed newspaper kid was definitely very into her

Yeah upon rewatch I agree with you. For Nancy that moment was more about Barb than Steve. I think Eddie misinterpreted it. He is a 19 year old and judging by his interactions with Chrissy not all that experienced at love himself. 

I think the idea of Steve and Nancy annoys me less than the idea that Steve deserves Nancy because he is just such a"nice guy". Its just such a gross retrograde incel idea. Nancy shouldn't have to be with Steve because its what Steve wants. Or because fans like Steve better. Men aren't entitled to their dream girl just by showing basic human kindness and decency. If the show goes this route with Nancy who has had the strongest feminist arc I would be very disappointed.

I don't know if Vecna is the sole intelligence behind the upside down. I have always assumed the upside down itself has its own intelligence and it learns and grows from everyone that enters it. I mean why would Vecna know or even care what's in Nancy's diary? I feel like there must be something else at work there. I do wonder if Vecna sent the Demogorgen to reach out to El in the mind space. If he was trying to reach out or even attack her.

[DrSpaceman73]

Oh I definitely think it was about barb not Steve.  Thought it was pretty clear. 

[Sarah 103]

On 6/14/2022 at 11:44 PM, Starry-Eyed said:

IDK why, but Nancy is extremely shippable with all the "older teen" characters, though. Pretty sure Nancy's straight, but there's some chemistry between her and Robin, and even Eddie seems slightly attracted to her, and that doomed newspaper kid was definitely very into her

I think it's because she isn't one thing. There are multiple sides to her personality, and because of that, it's easier to see her with different people.  

14 hours ago, Emily Thrace said:

I think the idea of Steve and Nancy annoys me less than the idea that Steve deserves Nancy because he is just such a"nice guy". Its just such a gross retrograde incel idea. Nancy shouldn't have to be with Steve because its what Steve wants. Or because fans like Steve better. Men aren't entitled to their dream girl just by showing basic human kindness and decency.

I totally agree with on "Men aren't entitled to their dream girl just by showing basic human kindness and decency." Steve has gone above and beyond "showing basic human kindness and decency." He has gotten involved and put himself in danger multiple times when he could have walked away, starting in the first season when he saw something strange at the Bryer house just as he was about to get in his car and leave and continuing this season when he went into the boat instead of staying with the younger teens and making the dive into the Upside-Down. To me, Steve deserves Nancy because he's proven that he can be a hero and that isn't the popular jerk he was at the start of season 1. Whether or not Nancy wants him is up to her, and it's clear that for now, she isn't interested in him as a boyfriend.

Nancy has been written as the kind of girl who doesn't need a boyfriend. Her entire life has never revolved around who she's dating and relationships. If she decides she wants a romantic relationship with someone, it will be because it's what she wanted, not because of the shippers on deck. 

I trust that if the writers go in the direction of having Nancy and Steve get back together, the writers will create a moment, a scene, or a storyline where the two of them getting back together makes perfect sense and doesn't seem rushed, out of place, or pure fanservice. 

If Eddies survives (which I doubt) I kind of like the idea of Eddie and Nancy going out on a date, but I don't think it would work out between them. I like the idea of them at least trying. 

[Hotel Snarker]

The shot of the teens leaving the Wheeler house on bikes transitioning to the older crew on bikes in the Upside Down was so sweet. Wouldn’t have been a season of Stranger Things without people cycling somewhere with great purpose.

A+ casting for the little boy to play Jamie Campbell's younger self. When we first saw the kid a few episodes ago I thought his eyes looked a little weird and now it all makes sense. In hindsight that's such an obvious tell that they were the same person. Thoroughly enjoyed that ending, I'm proud that I saw the twist that the guard is 001 and that 001 is Vecna as soon as they mentioned 001. However, 001 being the Creel son was the twist I didn't see coming and I loved every second of it because it really cleared up why Vecna just targeted a random family and the way a lot of my questions and theories just came together was really satisfying.

So in a way Eddie’s uncle was right when he said Creel was to blame for Chrissy’s death.

So, so glad Steve had his ass-kicking moment this series, even if it was too short.

Touching reunion for Hopper and Joyce. That smile from Hopper at the end made the slow build up worth it.

Dustin is such a Chad. He got Suzie, Steve, and Eddie all vying for his affections and approval.

Having to wait over a month to find out what that damn painting is all about. I was dying to see it.

This episode and Dear Billy are the two best episodes in the series, probably. I hope this isn’t recency bias but this was an absolute grand slam from the Duffer Brothers. Some people have felt like Stranger Things has become too crazy and exaggerated, but this episode was a clear reminder to me that these dudes know what they’ve been doing from the start. I hope we get some stuff that changes how we see seasons 2 and 3 as well.

I hope Nancy survives. Imagine Mike and Jonathan going to Hawkins and hearing she's dead.

[Starry-Eyed]

On 6/18/2022 at 1:40 PM, Taryn74 said:

Yeah, the showrunners really messed up IMO when they had current El IN most of the scenes from her memories instead of WATCHING her younger self during all of the flashback scenes. It was just too confusing and made it look like some of them took place years before others, when really they all took place in 1979.

I interpreted that as them desperately trying to find a way to allow Millie Brown to play these key emotional moments for her character despite the fact that she can't remotely pass for an eight year old anymore. The amount of de-aging effects they would have needed would have been extremely expensive and would have looked like garbage. Relying on a child actor (and being constrained in choice to one that could pass for a young Millie Brown) probably wouldn't have been a great choice either.

Definitely agree that it was confusing at times, though.

[lidarose9]

I rewatched all the previous seasons to get back up to speed for watching the new one, and just finished. I feel a little traumatized. Maybe it's me, but seeing these kids bullied, beat up, terrorized, shot at, kidnapped, etc. is borderline too much for me. They are *children*. I've also been watching a lot of TV for the last 2+ years thanks to covid and am a whole lot more critical than I was (I think) when this show first started.

I had zero time and interest for any of the Russia/Alaska thing, none at all apart from Murray, who I would watch read the phone book. It was so obvious they were just dragging that whole thing out as long as they could padding it with completely unnecessary and uninteresting and irrelevant action to keep the Joyce/Hopper reunion for a big payoff moment. Ugh. They could have done all of that in 2 episodes.

I don't find it entertaining to watch a young girl being brutalized mentally and physically for HOURS AND HOURS. I feel really sorry for some of these actors. Can you imagine what it was like for Millie Bobby Brown to go to work every day and do the same traumatized reactions over and over, the tears, the anger, the screams. And really what was the point? Again, they could have wrapped ALL of that up in a 2-episode arc. HUGE LONG portions of that storyline were complete filler.

Having the gang broken into so many little groups, in different locations was confusing to me. I wish they'd had some titles plastered over the opening scene when they'd jump around. We got a bunch of new characters thrown at us and it was a lot to keep track of. I don't see why they even needed that subplot about the bad people torturing that govt guy. (I fast-forwarded through it.) I'm so tired of torture. It's a lazy plot device.

I also found a whole lot of the comic funny moments needlessly prolonged. We get it! Adults are out of touch! Yes, Dustin's funny! OK move on!

Will has been a big nothing. His only function this season is to look troubled and touch the back of his neck. Why have they done basically NOTHING with his character. Jonathan and Will are both just along for the ride. Everybody else gets actual agency, things happen, they do stuff.

I like the way Mike looks cuz that's how high school freshmen look: they spring up tall and haven't filled out yet, so they're strangely angular, bony-looking, their features not quite in proportion. It's totally realistic. The 80s were all about big hair and bad haircuts. I think he looks just right for his character, the same way Dustin is a bit chubby, still has his baby fat. They are KIDS.

Every time Robyn opens her mouth, I want to slap her. I understand this is her character: the motormouth, the nervous talker, but holy cow. That actor does a great job at making her annoying as hell.

I don't care about love triangle. This is what kids do: they get together, break up, get back together, realize that was a bad idea, find someone new, move on. Couples in high school almost never stay together in the long run. (Yes, I know, some do.) Same with Will crushing on Mike, if that's what it is. Mike may simply be outgrowing their friendship and that is painful for Will. This is 100% normal for teenagers.

Steve's character so easily could have been like Billy, a typical big man on campus, and I love what they've done with his character. Except he is apparently able to hold his breath under water for 5 minutes without drowning. (This is a major pet peeve of mine.)

I do appreciate the way they have taken pains to highlight how hard high school is for kids, even without supernatural threats. Broken families, alcoholics parents, bullying at school, the cliques. At the beginning of this season, the gang is not really a gang anymore, even the ones in Hawkins. To me that is realistic. Max is self-isolating, Lucas is experimenting with the possibility of being popular and making new friends, Will's kind of lost and lonely (like usual), and Jonathan's fallen in with a stoner crowd, when he used to have actual ambition. Mike's been distancing himself from both his best friends (El and Will). Dustin continues to carry the torch for the gang but really it sounds like other than their D&D games, they're just not as close now. And that is exactly what happens in high school.

The whole thing with the Jock Posse would easily have been left out and nothing would have suffered. However, the jock leader (can't remember his name) makes sense to me, in that a lot of times (especially in small towns), high school sports heroes are made to feel they *need* to take a leadership role in any given situation, that it's expected. He'll run for mayor when he grows up.

That Satanic Panic thing was real. The vast majority of us laughed at it. But for a small percentage, it was a big deal. I actually know people who believed it was real and who claim to this day to have knowledge of it. People can believe really crazy things -- we have ample evidence of that right now.

And yes, not everybody dated in high school and not everybody had sex. I don't want to see children being sexualized. (This show does pretty good with that, at least so far.)

And yes, in the mid-80s, it was a VERY big deal to be anything other than straight, again, especially in a small town. 

Also it has finally dawned on me that Hawkins, like the town in Buffy The Vampire Slayer, is located at some kind of psychic crossroads where this kind of shit happens. It helps me to understand why this little town is so full of monsters.

In spite of all that complaining, I do love this show. I just want it to be its best self. I also have the same major gripe about it that I've had with EVERY season of this show: It's too fucking dark! I don't mean depressing, I mean actual DARK. Half the time I can't see wtf is going on. I thought it was a mistake in the first season and was really disappointed they didn't take the opportunity to improve in the second season, and it's been the same all throughout. SO much in this show happens at night, in dark places. GIVE US A BREAK for god's sake. I am so tired of a black screen with two flashlights bouncing around on gross stuff.

OK. I'm ready for Part 2.

[Rankles]

Having rewatched this episode in preparation for Volume 2, I’m now even more convinced that Steve’s either a goner or will undergo some sort of transformation in the finale… 😟

I’ve had the feeling we’re not going to get a happy ending to this season since probably the first episode, with the possible foreshadowing of Dustin failing to defeat Vecna after rolling an 11 (could mean nothing, but it’s interesting they had him roll that number?).
 

Would say this episode is behind only Dear Billy as the best of the season so far. Henry’s big reveal was very well done, and it was good to see the Demogorgon causing carnage again. Hope “Enzo” makes it out of there alive, think him and Hopper could go on to be good friends. Very much doubt he survives though.

[Rankles]

I’ve been rewatching the show from the beginning over the last 2-3 weeks, as a refresher ahead of Volume 2 this Friday, and came across a couple of moments in S1 that I thought could suggest the Duffers have had Vecna planned out well in advance.

Most notable one is in E6 (The Monster), when El has her flashback to when she made contact with the Demogorgon in the Void/mind space. During that whole scene, you can hear a clock ticking in the background. Obviously could be completely unrelated, though there’s no real reason for it to be there otherwise.

Also, back in the first episode, there’s what could be construed as a clock chiming twice when Will crashes his bike. 

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

7 hours ago, Rankles said:

I’ve been rewatching the show from the beginning over the last 2-3 weeks, as a refresher ahead of Volume 2 this Friday, and came across a couple of moments in S1 that I thought could suggest the Duffers have had Vecna planned out well in advance.

Most notable one is in E6 (The Monster), when El has her flashback to when she made contact with the Demogorgon in the Void/mind space. During that whole scene, you can hear a clock ticking in the background. Obviously could be completely unrelated, though there’s no real reason for it to be there otherwise.

Also, back in the first episode, there’s what could be construed as a clock chiming twice when Will crashes his bike. 

I don't recall the audio clues of the chiming clocks, but in the very first episode, I always thought it a bit strange that the house's door lock disengaged itself after Will ran home and as he tried to hide from the Demogorgon, before he was lost in the Upside-Down.  Especially after we saw that Eleven (& others like her, IE One/Vecna) could do the same through telekinesis.  But as far as we know, Demogorgons don't have special abilities/powers like that.

Whether that is a hint of Vecna having been planned out from the beginning or not, I have no idea, but its something that stuck out to me.

Edited June 30, 2022 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[Taryn74]

48 minutes ago, Rankles said:

Most notable one is in E6 (The Monster), when El has her flashback to when she made contact with the Demogorgon in the Void/mind space. During that whole scene, you can hear a clock ticking in the background.

Interesting! I know for sure there was the chiming clock in S3 when Billy was pulled into the upside down the first time, I went back and checked after someone mentioned it. I bet the clues have been there all along and we just didn't know to look for them. I'm excited to go back and do a rewatch after the next two episodes.

One thing I'm looking forward to watching for is signs that One had an influence on Kali before she ran away. I'm almost positive she advised El on how to harness and control her powers the same way that One did when he was talking El into helping him escape. I'd be willing to bet he was grooming Kali before he was grooming El, but Kali outsmarted him and used his help to run away herself instead of setting him free.

[Rankles]

3 minutes ago, Taryn74 said:

Interesting! I know for sure there was the chiming clock in S3 when Billy was pulled into the upside down the first time, I went back and checked after someone mentioned it. I bet the clues have been there all along and we just didn't know to look for them. I'm excited to go back and do a rewatch after the next two episodes.

One thing I'm looking forward to watching for is signs that One had an influence on Kali before she ran away. I'm almost positive she advised El on how to harness and control her powers the same way that One did when he was talking El into helping him escape. I'd be willing to bet he was grooming Kali before he was grooming El, but Kali outsmarted him and used his help to run away herself instead of setting him free.

Didn’t notice the one in S3 tbh. I’ll have to re-rewatch that one! 🙃

[mledawn]

I really like seeing how Vecna/One could be traced back to S1 by folks who invest the time to look for these Easter eggs. Then I remember the Duffers forgot Will’s birthday was established in cannon, so my faith in this overarching tale is wavering a bit…

BUT it is neat all the same!

[Rankles]

2 hours ago, mledawn said:

I really like seeing how Vecna/One could be traced back to S1 by folks who invest the time to look for these Easter eggs. Then I remember the Duffers forgot Will’s birthday was established in cannon, so my faith in this overarching tale is wavering a bit…

BUT it is neat all the same!

Seriously, they had 365 days to choose from for that scene. How did they manage to go with the same day twice?!

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

No clue if this ties into One/Vecna, either, but I've always found it weird that instead of just killing & eating Will and Barb, the Demogorgon(s?) did whatever it was doing to them in the Upside-Down.  Barb didn't survive the process, and Will was a bit dead before they revived him, but it seemed they had another purpose for them other than as just food sources.

And considering the very end of S1 and then "Dart" in S2, was the Demogorgons using them for 'breeding'/incubator purposes?  Wondering exactly how intelligent the Demogorgons are.  And is it their own intelligence or Vecna's own brainpower & actions through them, IE his creation(s)??

Actually, now that I think about it, it seemed like when Vecna brutally killed the teens in S4, he 'fed' off their deaths through those weird 'IV-like flesh tubes'.  Maybe the long flesh tube thing they pulled out of Will's mouth and throat was something similar, and Vecna was feeding off his & Barb's life force?

Many, many ways that One/Vecna could be weaved into the earliest storylines.

Like for instance... I forget exactly how, but have seen it speculated that the outside lights flickering at the Wheelers, as Will rode off right before his running into the Demogorgon, was another possible way that signified One/Vecna's presence in the Rightside-Up.

Edited June 30, 2022 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[nodorothyparker]

Finally finished last night. The Creel kid/001/Vecna reveal was really well done and tied well into the established history of the show even if it did feel like it took forever to get there. But pacing has been an issue throughout so much of this big supersized season. I still wish the showrunners had settled on a different way of showing us past vs. present in the lab rat storyline, like as some have suggested having current Eleven watching all this happen to a much smaller younger version. Because this was seriously confusing to me at points and it frankly loses a bit of the horror by having the manipulation and brutality of what was happening when played by an actress in the same size ballpark (whose face frankly is already taking on her adult lines) as the adults doing it to her as opposed to the reality that they were tricking and torturing a maybe 7-year-old girl. While I get the argument that we know what the Millie Bobby Brown version of the character looked like in 1983, that's not when all these critical scenes were supposed to be happening. Four years in a kid this age is a huge visual difference. If they had cast a young actress who bore a decent superficial resemblance and just called her Eleven from the start, I think most of us could have just gone with it. A certain amount of suspension of disbelief has to happen to make TV work anyway.

The reveal wasn't really surprising though when you actually thought about it, but it did raise questions about the thought process behind basically shock collaring 001 if he was so dangerous and then letting him play orderly to a bunch of younger and more vulnerable children. That seems quite a gamble. Given what we've seen of how they treated these kids, I'm honestly a little surprised they didn't just lock him away.

The resolution to the Russia story was fine, if dear gods please let that BE the resolution, but it should have come much earlier. The entire story has been stretched and stretched some more and felt pretty obvious as a way to keep the adult cast busy in their own silo away from all the disparate kids' storylines.

Both the Upside Down and right side up Hawkins crews have been about the only thing holding all of this together so far. I too loved the shot of both crews looking through the gate at each other. I love that they even admit the physics of it don't make sense, but let's go with it anyway. Because I still don't care either way about the teen triangle or any Nancy-Steve floofing it requires, I appreciate that the show tied so much of Nancy's motivation to what happened to Barb and her continued guilt over that. I loved the shots of both groups escaping on bikes, although with acknowledging that the trailer park was seven miles away, I did have to pause to explain to my own kids that '80s kids wouldn't have thought anything about taking off and riding that distance or more if they were properly motivated.

Not that it's super relevant to this particular episode, but as a teenager in the small town Midwest I didn't know a single out person in this time period. Certain people were rumored, but it was usually gay slurs that smeared anyone who didn't tick the expected gender markers for one reason or another. The first person I knew who openly said he was gay was in college in the early '90s and I remember at the time being really concerned someone would hurt him for it. Quite a few people have come out since then, but that didn't happen until years later.

[DoctorAtomic]

2 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Not that it's super relevant to this particular episode, but as a teenager in the small town Midwest I didn't know a single out person in this time period. Certain people were rumored, but it was usually gay slurs that smeared anyone who didn't tick the expected gender markers for one reason or another.

Same, but not Midwest, though rural. I didn't know who was gay in HS until Facebook and we all reconnected. tbh, I have a decent recall of HS, and I had nooooo idea. It was like, 'oh, yeah, I can see how they were gay.' I mean, el ziltcho. 

[Heathrowe]

I don't think it's about Steve being entitled to the girl. It's about if those two still have chemistry and still "feel it" when they are together. And on my end - when Steve took off his shirt and jumped in the water I also wanted to go after him so...I do think they have good chemistry together and still have a bond. They've both grown and become kick-a$$ people.

That said - I agree that Barb was a big part of Nancy jumping in, but a newbie like Munson wouldn't understand. Misunderstandings are what tv love stories are made of, right?

This episode and the one prior were both fantastic. I hit a mid-season lull where I was not feeling it but I loved both of these and cannot wait for the new ones to start.

[Nashville]

 

On 5/29/2022 at 3:29 AM, PurpleTentacle said:

Though how [Brenner] knew to make them by giving the mothers LSD still remains a mystery. Nothing like that was mentioned with 1, was it? He was just randomly born with powers, wasn't he? First I thought maybe it had something to do with hoppers speechefying about agent orange, but 1's father fought in WW2, not Vietnam.

Check the history; the ‘50s-‘60s were the heyday of government (read: CIA + DoD) experimentation to identify the effects of LSD, and how those effects might be weaponized for use in either a hot or cold war geopolitical environment.  As Brenner’s psychic ability research is almost certainly funded by some branch of the federal government, his use of LSD in different research phases would hardly rate so much as a raised eyebrow.

On 5/29/2022 at 3:29 AM, PurpleTentacle said:

Dustin might just have it wrong. It's not entirely clear so far. But I think signs point to 1 making the upsidedown what it is today.

My own opinion:

• The UD has existed for all time, as a parallel reality - but as a largely unformed void.
• In the course of the 1979 Hawkins Lab battle, the psychic wrench of El’s climactic attack on One breached the barrier between the alternate realities and impelled One through the breach.
• When One entered the UD, it was a featureless virtual wasteland, but over the course of the next few years One learned to “terraform” the UD to suit his individual goals - initially for basic survival, but eventually to gather and increase power.
• By virtue of El’s 1979 example One had the advantage of absolute knowledge - the wall between our reality plane and that of the UD could be breached - and by 1983 One figured he had amassed sufficient power to make the attempt.

And thus began Will’s adventure….

On 6/12/2022 at 1:11 PM, Taryn74 said:

I'm not 100% on this, but I think what happened is that the explosion pulled Hopper into the Upside Down, and then he popped back out of the Upside Down at the "sister site" in Russia. There was probably already a Gate in Russia, which would explain how they had a demogorgon. The Russians who we saw knock Hopper out were watching the video feed and saw Joyce turn the keys and pieced together what was happening and just proceeded from there.

That's my working theory at the moment.

At the opening of S4E2 we are shown Hopper surviving the explosion and regaining consciousness on the floor of the Hawkins-based Russian facility, directly under the now-closed breach.  My best guess?  Before Hopper could fully regain either sensibilities or mobility sufficient to escape the facility, he was recaptured by some of the remaining Russian troops and smuggled out of America to Russia.

[Taryn74]

13 minutes ago, Nashville said:

• When One entered the UD, it was a featureless virtual wasteland, but over the course of the next few years One learned to “terraform” the UD to suit his individual goals - initially for basic survival, but eventually to gather and increase power.
• By virtue of El’s 1979 example One had the advantage of absolute knowledge - the wall between our reality plane and that of the UD could be breached - and by 1983 One figured he had amassed sufficient power to make the attempt.

I'm also now wondering, given what we've learned in S4, if some of the experiments we saw El being forced into (there was a scene with her trying to do something with a coke can, and wasn't there one with a cat which really upset her?) were Brenner trying to get her to recreate whatever it was she did when she sent One into the UD. Like, he was trying to get her to send other objects and beings into the UD as well as use the empty space to travel long distances telepathically to spy on people. Maybe she was tearing tiny holes in between the dimensions all over the place with the experiments, weakening it, and they didn't know it.

[Dev F]

1 hour ago, Heathrowe said:

I don't think it's about Steve being entitled to the girl. It's about if those two still have chemistry and still "feel it" when they are together. And on my end - when Steve took off his shirt and jumped in the water I also wanted to go after him so...I do think they have good chemistry together and still have a bond. They've both grown and become kick-a$$ people.

That said - I agree that Barb was a big part of Nancy jumping in, but a newbie like Munson wouldn't understand. Misunderstandings are what tv love stories are made of, right?

My suspicion is that the whole Nancy/Steve situation is being set up to resolve Nancy's Barb issues. That is, she'll be given a chance to make a deliberate decision this time, between getting back with Steve and saving her friend (Robin), and this time she'll choose her friend over Steve.

[Clanstarling]

51 minutes ago, Dev F said:

My suspicion is that the whole Nancy/Steve situation is being set up to resolve Nancy's Barb issues. That is, she'll be given a chance to make a deliberate decision this time, between getting back with Steve and saving her friend (Robin), and this time she'll choose her friend over Steve.

I understand the reasoning, and it makes sense. But since Robin is *barely* her friend, I personally don't see that as the end game. Only one day until it all drops, we'll find out then. :)

[janie jones]

5 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Same, but not Midwest, though rural. I didn't know who was gay in HS until Facebook and we all reconnected. tbh, I have a decent recall of HS, and I had nooooo idea. It was like, 'oh, yeah, I can see how they were gay.' I mean, el ziltcho. 

A family friend (an adult) came out in the mid-late 80s, and I was just asking my dad the other day if he ever would have guessed that the guy was gay. My dad said no, but that it didn't really occur to you back in those days. Like, we the 2010s* viewers realized Robin was gay before Steve was all "but she's a girl?!"

*It's weird to me that the last season came out in the last decade!

2 hours ago, Taryn74 said:

I'm also now wondering, given what we've learned in S4, if some of the experiments we saw El being forced into (there was a scene with her trying to do something with a coke can, and wasn't there one with a cat which really upset her?) were Brenner trying to get her to recreate whatever it was she did when she sent One into the UD. Like, he was trying to get her to send other objects and beings into the UD as well as use the empty space to travel long distances telepathically to spy on people. Maybe she was tearing tiny holes in between the dimensions all over the place with the experiments, weakening it, and they didn't know it.

That would explain why the Russians (maybe) have their own gate.

1 hour ago, Dev F said:

My suspicion is that the whole Nancy/Steve situation is being set up to resolve Nancy's Barb issues. That is, she'll be given a chance to make a deliberate decision this time, between getting back with Steve and saving her friend (Robin), and this time she'll choose her friend over Steve.

I like this idea, except I don't like it because Robin and Steve are my favorite characters and I don't want anything to come down to one of the two of them. Plus I'm not sure she and Robin will become close enough to parallel her relationship with Barb over the next two episodes, or by next season. (Of course, I don't know how much time will have passed by the next season, but my guess is that it won't be more than a few months, to take place during the upcoming summer, before Nancy and Jonathan start college.)

[DoctorAtomic]

3 hours ago, janie jones said:

A family friend (an adult) came out in the mid-late 80s, and I was just asking my dad the other day if he ever would have guessed that the guy was gay. My dad said no, but that it didn't really occur to you back in those days. Like, we the 2010s* viewers realized Robin was gay before Steve was all "but she's a girl?!"

And I totally meant dudes. I have no idea of there were any lesbians. 

[Enero]

On 6/1/2022 at 2:56 AM, silverstream said:

I'm also curious whether we get more information on One's backstory - why/how did his mom suspect he had magical powers? How did she get in contact with Brenner, of all people? Or did she just get in contact with a random psychologist, and the rest is part of One's delusions - but that wouldn't explain why he woke up in Brenner's lab following the murders (at least, that's what's implied).

This. I was discussing Vecna’s backstory with someone and watched this episode again to get clarity on some things. I too wonder how his mom knew the truth.  Could she have had powers herself and that’s how she a) knew what Vecna was doing and b) was the reason why/how she knew Brenner? It would also explain why Vecna has powers.

Also, why did he choose that moment at dinner to kill his family? He said it was his plan all along, but I do wonder if he felt compelled to act more quickly than planned. Before killing his family, the radio started to have interference and he gave his mom a knowing look then killed her. Did he discover something about her in that moment that compelled him to immediately act? But then I’d think if she had powers he would’ve discovered this when poking around her mind, unless she was somehow able to hide it somehow. 

I’d also like to know what atrocities his mother committed that caused him to conclude she was a horrible person? We saw that with his dad it was due to some things he’d done while fighting in the war, but what about his mom? What evil had she done for him to deem her bad? 

Edited July 5, 2022 by Enero

[Clanstarling]

15 hours ago, Enero said:

I’d also like to know what atrocities his mother committed that caused him to conclude she was a horrible person? We saw that with his dad it was due to some things he’d done while fighting in the war, but what about his mom? What evil had she done for him to deem her bad? 

He was a child, maybe she just disciplined him and that was "evil" to him.

[Enero]

33 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

He was a child, maybe she just disciplined him and that was "evil" to him.

The impression I got was that he didn’t see these “atrocities” until he started delving into her mind. Which is how he was able to torture her (and his father) with past discretions they’d hidden from all under their guise of goodness. So I don’t think it’s related to how she disciplined him.  

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, Enero said:

The impression I got was that he didn’t see these “atrocities” until he started delving into her mind. Which is how he was able to torture her (and his father) with past discretions they’d hidden from all under their guise of goodness. So I don’t think it’s related to how she disciplined him.  

You're probably right. My reply was a bit of a quip.

[LilJen]

On 5/31/2022 at 2:05 PM, MamaGee said:

I saw this similarity, too. Also when El was fighting One, it was a lot like Dumbledore/Harry vs. Voldemort showdowns from the Harry Potter movies. 

I was all EXPECTO PATRONUM!!!!! when El conjured up her mom saying "I love you" at her birth. 😁

[CCTC]

There is so much about El's history that I have simply forgotten.  Neither her story or the actual upside down world has ever really made much sense to me, so I don't retain a lot of it.  I have always enjoyed the show of the characters/actors feel and atmosphere of the show, but have not always tracked its logic.  The first season was in 2016 which is now 6 years ago, so I suppose it is not completely the result of a faulty memory. 

The flashback of Nancy's reminded me how they really nailed the1982/83 look.   I remember thinking Barb looked like she could have been transported from a time machine.  That season really looked like it could have been filmed in the early 80's compared to now where it has more of a feel that people are dressed up to look like they are in the 80's.  I suppose because it is harder to resist going overboard with the mid-80's excessive style.

I like Nancy and Steve, and with all of the trauma they are going through right now and seeing each other in danger it makes sense some feelings are resurfacing, but the show really should end with Nancy going off to college and no combination of the trio being together.  I agree with the comment of Nancy and Robin actually having a bit of chemistry, but it would be so contrived if they went there.

There have been some comments on Mike's looks.  My issue is of the kids, he might be the weakest actor.  Some of his scenes with El were a little painful.  Will, on the other hand seems to be a natural, and makes no sense that they have basically given him the least to do since season 1.

In some ways this might be my favorite season in a few years, but it would be so much better if it was just focused on Hawkins/Vecna and each episode 45 to 60 minutes.  Sorry Joyce and Hopper.

I like Erica in small doses, but she is not stupid, you would have thought she would have figured out they were hiding their knowledge about Eddie and tried to talk in private before announcing to the cops that they were liars.  I know there were still a lot of precocious child characters in the 80's, but she really seems to be modeled after Dee from What's Happening.

Like a lot of others, figured the orderly was probably 1 and responsible for the deaths, but did not have any clue that he was Vecna.  I liked how they did the flash between his monolog and Nancy having the visions, but having him talk that long and sound like he was reading cliff notes from his life might have been a little lazy - but the shots and everything were great.  Also, did not see Nancy as the one to end up in peril at the end - figured since Steve was exiting upside down last - he would get pulled back in before he got out as the closing shot.

At least I don't need to wait two months like people did when this first aired to see the next episode.

[Dixie Sugarbaker]

Why did the Orderly/Vecna single out Eleven out of all of the kids when she didn’t seem to be the strongest child? She was able to connect with him in S1 and start the Upside Down chain of events, and before the Hawkins Lab massacre he and Eleven seemed to have a real connection. So I wonder, who is Eleven’s father and is he the Orderly/Vecna?

[Clanstarling]

12 hours ago, Dixie Sugarbaker said:

Why did the Orderly/Vecna single out Eleven out of all of the kids when she didn’t seem to be the strongest child? She was able to connect with him in S1 and start the Upside Down chain of events, and before the Hawkins Lab massacre he and Eleven seemed to have a real connection. So I wonder, who is Eleven’s father and is he the Orderly/Vecna?

Interesting, sounds like a valid theory to me.

If that's true, poor El has had a bad run of papas, until Hopp, that is.

[bijoux]

On 6/4/2022 at 5:49 AM, Kel Varnsen said:

Does it seem weird to anyone else that all of Papa's other kids developed telekinetic powers but 008 somehow developed mess with your mind/vision powers?

Which really makes her special. I have to wonder if she'd be able to manipulate Vecna's mind. If so, she'd be a terrific asset.

On 6/18/2022 at 10:37 PM, Dev F said:

It's not totally clear to me whether Henry was saying that he intended to leave his father alive, or just that he intended to blame him for the other murders, which he could also do if he killed his mom and sister and made it look like his dad committed suicide. (For total grammar nerds, the ambiguity rests on the fact that although the subtitles give the line as "He was arrested, blamed for the death of my sister and mother, just as I had planned," which would imply the former, to me it sounds like the line as delivered is "He was arrested, blamed for the death of my sister and mother just as I had planned," which could also mean the latter.)

But the fact that he left Brenner alive would potentially be evidence in favor of the notion that he purposely left his father alive as well. In that case, we'd have to assume that Henry was holding his father in a dream state for a reason other than as a prelude to murdering him. Maybe it was just to incapacitate him until the police arrived, and/or to further freak him out so he looked like a deranged murderer to the cops once they did arrive?

I took it as leaving Victor alive was always the plan, surviving would be his punishment. It makes sense given his remorse about the bombing and was also proven true when he tried to commit suicide and blinded himself as a result.

On 6/28/2022 at 1:43 AM, Hotel Snarker said:

The shot of the teens leaving the Wheeler house on bikes transitioning to the older crew on bikes in the Upside Down was so sweet. Wouldn’t have been a season of Stranger Things without people cycling somewhere with great purpose.

That was a terrific shot, but I laughed at everyone just standing around yelling after the kids when Erica punctured one tire on one police cruiser. We know the parents had come with three separate cars so it's not like they were stranded.

On 7/6/2022 at 1:39 AM, Enero said:

This. I was discussing Vecna’s backstory with someone and watched this episode again to get clarity on some things. I too wonder how his mom knew the truth.  Could she have had powers herself and that’s how she a) knew what Vecna was doing and b) was the reason why/how she knew Brenner? It would also explain why Vecna has powers.

Also, why did he choose that moment at dinner to kill his family? He said it was his plan all along, but I do wonder if he felt compelled to act more quickly than planned. Before killing his family, the radio started to have interference and he gave his mom a knowing look then killed her. Did he discover something about her in that moment that compelled him to immediately act? But then I’d think if she had powers he would’ve discovered this when poking around her mind, unless she was somehow able to hide it somehow. 

I’d also like to know what atrocities his mother committed that caused him to conclude she was a horrible person? We saw that with his dad it was due to some things he’d done while fighting in the war, but what about his mom? What evil had she done for him to deem her bad? 

He says his mother had contacted a doctor (Brenner) who was supposed to come for him. That's why it was urgent. 

The things written here about El's father are interesting in that that's a pretty good alibi for El coming into Hop's life if they ever achieve any level of normalcy. El is the daughter of his old army comrade and Hop adopted her when her mother became too ili to take care of her. 

[janie jones]

When people are adopted, do they get new birth certificates that show their adopted parents as their parents?

[Nashville]

3 hours ago, janie jones said:

When people are adopted, do they get new birth certificates that show their adopted parents as their parents?

Not new birth certificates, as there wasn’t an actual “birth” involved - but a certificate of adoption, which is a legal equivalent in pretty much every sense.

[bijoux]

No, of course not, I just meant as a story for the public. I suppose he's not going to go around and show the birth certificate at the gas station. 

[Clanstarling]

I do believe that they did change the names on the birth certificate when children were adopted as newborns. Don't know if still occurs.

As for El, I don't think she would have any papers at all (on her, anyway) - but I imagine that the same guys who gave them the money for California provided a fake birth certificate and adoption papers.

[janie jones]

16 hours ago, bijoux said:

No, of course not, I just meant as a story for the public. I suppose he's not going to go around and show the birth certificate at the gas station. 

If I were them, I'd make up a lie that's supported by the documents. Had they stayed in Hawkins, what would have happened if she goes to get her driver's license and the person who takes her papers is someone they know (it's a small town, after all) and they see that her birth certificate doesn't match up with what everyone's been told?

I think it's easier to just say she's his kid that he never knew about and something happened to the mom.

[Taryn74]

8 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

but I imagine that the same guys who gave them the money for California provided a fake birth certificate and adoption papers.

Yes. Paul Reiser gave Hopper a birth certificate showing him as the father and Terry Ives as the mother of "Jane" back at the end of S2.

[bijoux]

Ah, I didn't remember that Terry was on the birth certificate as well. Well, that's easily explained then. Just put in Hopper in Andrew's place, El's a product of a relationship Hop had before he went to Vietnam. I'm glad Terry wasn't erased. More than she already has been. 

[Kel Varnsen]

On 8/3/2022 at 1:52 PM, bijoux said:

That was a terrific shot, but I laughed at everyone just standing around yelling after the kids when Erica punctured one tire on one police cruiser. We know the parents had come with three separate cars so it's not like they were stranded.

I just watched this episode yesterday. The squad car was the last car in the driveway so it having a flat tire blocked everyone else in. Sure the could have backed the car up a little and drove tbe other cars around on the lawn. But they didn't know where the kids were going, so the kids just needed enough time to get out of sight.

[smartymarty]

Quote

Touching reunion for Hopper and Joyce. That smile from Hopper at the end made the slow build up worth it.

It annoyed me though, because "Run!!" Have the touching reunion hug occur in the van as they drive away.

I've assumed Brenner inseminated various women with 1's semen to get the new children, which he took from the women.

(From way back in the comments:) You don't need upper body strength to climb a rope, you need strength in your legs. I could climb the gym rope all the way to the ceiling in 5th grade. You wrap the rope around one leg and then push up on that with the other.