S04.E07: Chapter Seven: The Massacre at Hawkins Lab

[PurpleTentacle]

20 minutes ago, Emily Thrace said:

Amphetamines do actually make sense if you are trying to "expand the boundaries of the mind" since it essentially speeds it up.

No.

20 minutes ago, Emily Thrace said:

There's really no definitive answer as to wether or not either drug causes inheritable defects in any case. Mostly because it never been effectively studied. Amphetamines do cause dna changes in animals so its theoretically possible in any case.

No definitive answer with a drug hundreds of years old means: there is no link. Sometimes a study comes out that tries to establish a link, then 10 that debunk it. In animals and in humans.

[ch1]

50 minutes ago, Dev F said:

At least with Mike, his unflattering look seems to match where the character is at this point, how he's not quite sure who he is -- awkwardly trying to be a cool guy by combining his new hero Eddie Munson's look with what he imagines Califonia style to look like. With Will, on the other hand, whose storyline seems to center around him having finally come to terms with the part of himself that he could previously only express by putting on a sparkly purple robe and declaring a day without girls, it's weird that he's still walking around with a little boy's bowl cut. 

Noah Schnapp has repeatedly asked the Duffers to change Will’s hair and they refuse.  A part of me thinks they think it’s funny at this point.  They probably get a kick from the response. 

Instead of the mushroom cap it’s beyond me why they they just didn’t part Will’s hair and feather the sides.  That is a style boys his age would have had then - they did not have perpetual bowl cuts.

[Coleyb]

On 5/28/2022 at 5:49 PM, Spartan Girl said:

They can’t just leave us there!!!! 

I KNEW El didn’t do it! So Brenner is kind of complicit here because he basically modeled his mutant kids after a superpowered sociopath. All the more reason not to trust him.

The Joyce/Hopper reunion was worth waiting for. But oh man they’re going to be in for a shock when they get back to the states and find everything in chaos. Let’s hope Mike and Will’s group get to the lab ASAP.

I swear One’s Vecna form sounds just like Freddy Krueger. Did Englund voice him too?

Great cliffhanger Indeed, I knew EL didn’t cause all those deaths either and plus saw the crack in the wall during the first 8 minutes. 

The whole monologue and fight scene between 001 and EL was amazing him being Creels son caught me off guard for sure, and I believe Jamie Campbell Bower who plays 001 voices Vecna. 

[Emily Thrace]

47 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

No.

No definitive answer with a drug hundreds of years old means: there is no link. Sometimes a study comes out that tries to establish a link, then 10 that debunk it. In animals and in humans.

Neither of those drugs have been around "hundreds of years". Its not definitive because no one has studied the generational effects of these drugs.  Its been implied since the second season that the drugs caused Eleven's abilities. We know LSD can't have created One since it didn't exist yet. Based on the number of kids in the program Brenner obviously found a way to duplicate whatever created him. Its probably some type of drug but I suppose it could be a type of radiation. Of the drugs readily available in WW2 amphetamines make more sense with MK Ultra than say morphine. Unless Victor Creel senior was part of some experimental PTSD treatment. Besides its a tv show with monsters and psychics it not exactly beholden to the exact effects of pharmaceuticals it just has to be plausible in the universe of the show.

[Brn2bwild]

Silly question, but did they actually shave Eleven's hair after she came to the NINA facility, or is that just what she hallucinated?  

[LittleIggy]

23 hours ago, Redrum said:

Am I the only one who thought One, in retrospect, was pretty youthful looking for someone who had to be mid thirties at least? And more like mid forties?

No, you aren’t! Victor said they moved into the house in 1959. His son looked at least eleven to me, so he would have been born in 1948. What year did the massacre occur? 

On 5/27/2022 at 11:51 PM, bettername2come said:

I love that Erica paid off Holly for the use of the Lite Brite with an ice cream bar (or candy?).

Wasn’t it a bag of Skittles?

[LittleIggy]

22 hours ago, Demian said:

Finn Wolfhard has both unnaturally perfect cheekbones and an unnaturally perfect jawline.  Despite the fact that he otherwise looks like a scarecrow, his face is gorgeous, and he will make very much more money than the rest of us as a model.

The haircut is doing Finn no favors at all. I think he is model gorgeous, too, like Eddie Redmayne.

[Chicago Redshirt]

12 hours ago, Harvey said:

1. Well....because that would be freaking terrifying? Cutting yourself with a cut glass? Yeah, can't blame him for not going that route.

2. It's because El is the strongest, he views her as being on his level. He mentioned multiple times that they are "the same" and in an earlier episode he talked about the similarities more, how things were hard for him too in the beginning.

3. Killing them made him stronger. He literally said this.

4. Lots of people mentioned that. 8 might make an appearance in season 5.

Yes, it would be scar to cut yourself. But as an ordinary person, I would totally risk it if it meant getting super powers back. Let alone a psychokiller.

But why does he view El as being on his level? If it is just backstory, presumably all the kids have the same basic backstory. If it's just because he believes El to be the most powerful, how has he determined that? I guess we will have to wait and see.

Yes, and killing randos also makes him stronger. It doesn't necessarily mean that he chose to kill the kids just to get a power boost. 

I realize that there's a possibility/probability that 8 and others will show up at some point before the series concludes. My question was more why haven't people in universe mentioned the mutants yet, given that they know of them and they might  provide another possible answer to what's happening in Hawkings.

2 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

Silly question, but did they actually shave Eleven's hair after she came to the NINA facility, or is that just what she hallucinated?  

Yes, it seems like they shaved her hair. All the scenes with her putting on the white wetsuit seem to be in the real world and she has short hair in them. 

51 minutes ago, LittleIggy said:

No, you aren’t! Victor said they moved into the house in 1959. His son looked at least eleven to me, so he would have been born in 1948. What year did the massacre occur? 

Wasn’t it a bag of Skittles?

Someone pointed out upthread that the flashbacks to young El were in 1979..

It was indeed a bag of Skittles, delivered with a line "For your understanding."

[Noneofyourbusiness]

5 hours ago, Writing Wrongs said:

I realized that all the stuff with El and the others reminds me of the show, Dark Angel.

Yup, the shaved heads and hospital gowns make them look a lot like the X5s in the flashbacks to when they were kids at Project Manticore.

10 hours ago, Dev F said:

It did occur to me that there's another possible reason they might keep One around, though it's quite dark and unpleasant and I don't think anything in the season thus far has alluded to it. Which is to say, if One is actually the father of any of the younger subjects, he doesn't seem to be aware of it.

Well, we already know from the official novel Suspicious Minds that El's biological father was Terry Ives's boyfriend Andrew Rich and that he died in Vietnam after Dr Brenner pulled strings to get him drafted.

Edited May 30, 2022 by Noneofyourbusiness

[Redrum]

10 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Well, we already know from Suspicious Minds who El's biological father was and how he died.

I mean, slap spoiler tags on that and spill. :D

[SonofaBiscuit]

Oh man, unpopular opinion, but I am not really enjoying this season. The Vecna stuff is just too creepy/disturbing with the breaking of the bones, Max doesn’t deserve the even shitter more horrible home life she’s been saddled with, I hate that El has been isolated for a large chunk of episodes in a lab setting with “Papa,” I don’t care about most of the new characters (Eddie and the basketball players can go bye bye now), and I hate that multiple characters and the show are on the Steve/Nancy train. I don’t dislike Nancy, but she’s just Jonathan-level interesting to me (which is to say, not at all). 

Sadly, some of the younger cast have outgrown the cute kid stage (not Will, he’s still adorable).

I see a lot of dislike regarding the Hopper/Russia storyline, but I think that probably ended up being the one I was most interested in. Enzo was a good addition, and I was excited to see the Joyce/Hopper reunion. Wish it would have happened several episodes earlier, but oh well. Now if they just skip the escape scene and get everyone back to the States, I’ll be happy.

Steve is still awesome and Dustin and Steve are A+. Not sure why the show is suddenly pushing Nancy/Steve hard, though, and I am not rooting for them, LOL.

[QuantumMechanic]

13 hours ago, Dev F said:

With respect to why he didn’t remove it himself, I’m pretty sure One said that the implant “weakens me”. So it damps his TK and I can imagine being to worried about trying to cut it out. Plus he might not have had the opportunity to even try.

It does seem strange he didn’t kill Brenner when he killed all those other people.

Edited May 30, 2022 by QuantumMechanic

[mledawn]

I was happy that shirtless, bloodied Steve finally received clothing from the guy with 3 or 4 layers of tops/jackets. That drove me wild the last ep.

I had forgotten that we knew El’s bio-dad and thought it might be One while watching.

Only 2 eps left to get Hopper back with El. I’m a little choked about that.

Edited May 30, 2022 by mledawn

[Cranberry]

At least the two episodes are long -- around an hour and a half and two and a half hours, respectively!

[blueray]

So I did end up just bingeing this. It is really hard just watch an episode of this show. I broke them down in groups to make it easier to explain. And reviewed the whole season hopefully that is okay. Anyhow my thoughts:

The Russian Group: I really felt that Hopper's story went on to long. His escape on the snowmobile should have been it. I did have a feeling before they even took off that Joyce and Murray were going to end up flying the plane lol. Though I will say that was coinvent that they crashed close to the prision as they took over the plane mid-flight. Finally Hopper and Joyce are back together at least.

California Group:

Eleven: In my opinion the bullying scenes were harder to watch than the horror ones. I felt so bad for Eleven and didn't get how/why the bullies hated her that much. Like don't they have better things to do on a Saturday. And we never found out what she did to them. I know it was wrong but I so cheered when the Eleven clopped the girl, she deserved it! Also on Eleven, didn't she move the box in the premier? So her powers were always there. I think they would have come back on their own, she doesn't need Brenner. I hope the boys get to her very soon in the next episode and get her out of that lab. Also I called that she didn't kill the kids, but wrong with number kid it was lol. I did figure out that the guy being nice to her was One. But I didn't call that he was also Vacna (sp?). 

Mike/ Will/ Johnathan: are very side line this season. I didn't even notice they weren't in the 7th episode until I finished it. At this point they are so far from what is going on. Hopefully they join up with Eleven and the main story soon. I do hope Will comes out by telling Mike (like Robin did) however, I don't want to see him "have feelings for Mike" as it is very clear that Mike is straight and Will knows this. Please spare me this awkward character scene. 

Hawkins: Now the main story group. I really am enjoying this group the most and the addition of Eddy and this season has the perfect amount of Erica. I love how the parents know something is up but are still clueless. And the cops being lost without Hopper but doing their best. I like the kids working together and of course the scene where they were looking at each other from the upside down and the physics made no sense lol. I would be with Robin and Eddy in thinking that was a fun jump. Though the thought occurred to me that they should have had Steve go first as he is injured but he maybe to much of a guy to do that lol. Poor Nancy :(. I should have saw that coming but didn't. That was a quite a cliffhanger. 

Anyhow, this is a great season and I am looking forward to seeing the last two episodes in July. 

Edited May 30, 2022 by blueray

[Spartan Girl]

9 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

The haircut is doing Finn no favors at all. I think he is model gorgeous, too, like Eddie Redmayne.

Will’s pageboy haircut is even worse. It’s bad even for the 80s. 

[CrowTRobot]

Enjoyed the season but the episodes were way...too...long.  I fast-forwarded through basically all the Russia stuff because it just made everything drag so bad even though I love watching scenes with Murray.  Longer eps do not equal better eps.  I'm afraid maybe the Duffers have gotten to the George Lucas prequels stage of success where they are surrounded by yes people and no can tell them things like "Don't make the episodes so long."  Ah well.  

[Redrum]

53 minutes ago, blueray said:

Eleven: In my opinion the bullying scenes were harder to watch than the horror ones. I felt so bad for Eleven and didn't get how/why the bullies hated her that much. Like don't they have better things to do on a Saturday. And we never found out what she did to them. I

Its not about hate, not really. Its interesting, I was watching season 1 last night and Lucas couldn't stand El and was basically a similar sort of jerk to her. 

Lets be honest - El is irritating as fuck to be around. If we as adults didn't know her whole traumatic and heroic backstory, we probably wouldn't be on her side in her bullying incidents. From a social standpoint, El is *difficult* to be around. She stares inappropriately, she's almost non verbal and when she does speak, she is very childish. Her mannerisms are awkward and she is socially awkward.

And, for some odd reason, she was fixated on being best friends with Angela who clearly did not want to be friends and straight up lied to Mike (friends don't lie except when El is doing it) about how she was best friends with Angela and totally loaded with friends. Its not Angela's fault that El had built a weird fantasy in her mind on how they were besties.

Note - not justifying Angela's behavior - she's old enough to understand that "there's something not right about that girl" as my mom would say and not be such a raging bitch. Unfortunately empathy has to be learned, we're not born with it, and this is why kids who are a little quirky or outside the norm get bullied. In Will and Mike's case, they just simply need to find their places. They're the kids where college will be the world opening up to them. With El, especially with her shall we say exotic background and emotional immaturity? Its going to be a LOT harder. 

[MamaGee]

On 5/27/2022 at 11:15 PM, Fuzzy Logic said:

Steve’s cough-cough moment of impending doom had better be happily resolved in the final two episodes of this season.

My house is in full agreement that, of all people, Steve better not die!!! We also don't want him and Nancy to get back together. There has to be some other girl out there for him. Nancy isn't all that. 

On 5/28/2022 at 6:31 PM, Thalia said:

Which also reminded me that I missed Mike, Will, and Jonathan in this episode

I totally didn't mind them being MIA. Sadly, these episodes made it very clear to me that there are some of the group of kids that I really like (those in Hawkins minus Nancy) and those I don't really like. (All of the other kids, even El) Will is whiny, Mike is manic and oblivious, and Jonathan is becoming a slacker? I mean, I can't really remember who he was before any of this so maybe he was a slacker all along. I know he wasn't popular. 

The kids still in Hawkins are the ones who, to me, have personalities and while they may have been a little forced on us, they are still likeable. Dustin needs his ego checked but he's still the little nerd who keeps his radio walkie-talkie ready to go. Lucas and Max have had worries going on inside them that they have been dealing with. Lucas' little sister is the shizzle. All the sass that comes out of that growing mouth is fabulous. And I really like Eddie a.k.a. Robert Downey Jr.'s little brother. 

Speaking of, does anyone else think One looks like Sam Claflin?

On 5/29/2022 at 12:16 AM, Redrum said:

I'm terribly shallow. My god, the kid playing Mike is one unattractive kid. 

I couldn't agree more and I feel awful for saying it. But I find him almost unwatchable and find it hilarious that we're supposed to think El AND Will are fawning over him. Seriously, he isn't even that funny or have an amazing personality. 

I know this might be unpopular but I don't understand why the powers that be have decided Will is gay and pining for Mike. I am sure I missed signs along the way but it feels more like a plot device than a sincere feeling Will has. And maybe it's because Will has always been the different kid because he was the one taken in season 1, but it's like the story writers have decided that didn't set him apart enough?

[LittleIggy]

Am I the only one who thought of Plinko every time they showed El with those chips and that board? 😆

[Redrum]

28 minutes ago, MamaGee said:

I couldn't agree more and I feel awful for saying it. But I find him almost unwatchable and find it hilarious that we're supposed to think El AND Will are fawning over him. Seriously, he isn't even that funny or have an amazing personality. 

Agree. I'll ignore the "he so ugly" issue - the heart wants what the heart wants after all but yeah, Mike is a pretty self centered guy at the end of the day. 

El fawns over him because she's emotionally immature, he's her first real friend and they've shared some horrifically scary moments. She also doesn't have any sort of idea what she's supposed to want so she sees Mike from purely her own experiences- Mike is the guy who rescued her and helped her and who adores her, therefore he's a great guy. 

28 minutes ago, MamaGee said:

I know this might be unpopular but I don't understand why the powers that be have decided Will is gay and pining for Mike. I am sure I missed signs along the way but it feels more like a plot device than a sincere feeling Will has. And maybe it's because Will has always been the different kid because he was the one taken in season 1, but it's like the story writers have decided that didn't set him apart enough?

I feel like they are going in the gay direction as well and I wish they weren't.

I don't think he'd be more than wistful about Mike because you know what? Gay kids aren't idiots. They know if they find someone attractive and that person is demonstrably straight. Mike is demonstrably straight. I wouldn't want him with Mike anyway because Mike is kind of an asshole to him.

But I don't like "and btw Will IS gay" because I hate it when shows go with stereotypes. Who is gay here? The athletic black kid? The ugly kid who is intellectually arrogant? The kid with the physical disability issue? Nope, all three have girl friends. But the quiet artistic kid who is actually good looking and who has a mother who is kind of over protective and no real father figure? Yup always gay. Just like how the lesbian girl is usually not traditionally pretty or into girly things and useful in a fight while the traditionally pretty girl is of course straight and always in a love triangle. 

But then Will is so set apart at this point - I joked with a friend that this show ends with Will Byers's inevitable suicide because nothing good happens to him. 

Edited May 30, 2022 by Redrum

[MissL]

I’m going to jump on the Steve better be ok train. If they need to kill one of the mains it should be someone else.  But I just can’t help but think having giant bites from bat/face hugger/whatever the hell else they are from the upside down can’t be good and he may not end up with rabies but some nasty evil infection isn’t outside the realm of possibility.  
 

And he absolutely shouldn’t have gone last on that damn rope! How the hell is he supposed to pull himself with gaping wounds on his side? The other three should have figured out a way to help him up. At this point I’m tired of poor Steve taking a beating every season! 

[BlackberryJam]

Will is so much more likable than Mike, stupid hair and all. I don’t care if Will is gay or not. I just keep thinking, “Will is the one who spent the most time in the Upside Down, how about the Hawkins gang try to reach him with questions?”

[blueray]

28 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

Will is so much more likable than Mike, stupid hair and all. I don’t care if Will is gay or not. I just keep thinking, “Will is the one who spent the most time in the Upside Down, how about the Hawkins gang try to reach him with questions?”

I wondered this too. Also can he still see into the upside down? If so, maybe he'll know that Nancy is in trouble and tell Johnathan & Mike who both obviously care about her. But probably just wishful thinking. 

[Dev F]

47 minutes ago, Redrum said:

But I don't like "and btw Will IS gay" because I hate it when shows go with stereotypes. Who is gay here? The athletic black kid? The ugly kid who is intellectually arrogant? The kid with the physical disability issue? Nope, all three have girl friends. But the quiet artistic kid who is actually good looking and who has a mother who is kind of over protective and no real father figure? Yup always gay.

Or they're finally revealing that he's gay because he's always been written as gay, all the way back to the original pitch packet for the series, in which he was described as "a sweet, sensitive kid with sexual identity issues" who "only recently came to the realization that he does not fit into the 1980s definition of 'normal.'" (A description that persisted even after Noah Schnapp was cast, when the character was described as "a small and sensitive boy who doesn’t fit into the 1980’s definition of normal," so it doesn't seem to be one of those things, like Lucas's parents being in the middle of a divorce, that the writers rethought in the development process.) I'm all in favor of confounding stereotypes, but more than that I'm in favor of not dropping the ball on three season's worth of subtext.

Which is to say, once it's been established that a character faces homophobic bullying, with his own father calling him a "f*g" and his own mother refusing to confirm or deny whether that's accurate, and there are queer-coded references to him painting a "rainbow ship" of which his mom was "so proud," and when his awkward dance with a girl is scored to the line "Every smile you fake" from "Every Breath You Take," and his entire arc for season 3 centers around his jealousy over his best friend's relationship with his girlfriend, and he dresses up in a sparkly purple robe to declare a day without girls while he sasses his friends, and finally the whole thing comes to a head with his best friend snapping "It's not my fault you don't like girls!" it's maybe more likely that all those things are happening because the writers are following through on their initial plans for the character than because of a series of crazy coincidences. "Whoops, we accidentally suggested, over and over again, that the character who we was originally supposed to be gay might be gay!" is not really a thing that happens.

[mledawn]

1 hour ago, MamaGee said:

Speaking of, does anyone else think One looks like Sam Claflin?

YES TO THE POINT OF DISTRACTION. Then I learned he was one of the Twilight head-honcho vampire guys and felt better that that is how I recognised him.

[Redrum]

46 minutes ago, Dev F said:

Or they're finally revealing that he's gay because he's always been written as gay, all the way back to the original pitch packet for the series, in which he was described as "a sweet, sensitive kid with sexual identity issues" who "only recently came to the realization that he does not fit into the 1980s definition of 'normal.'" (A description that persisted even after Noah Schnapp was cast, when the character was described as "a small and sensitive boy who doesn’t fit into the 1980’s definition of normal," so it doesn't seem to be one of those things, like Lucas's parents being in the middle of a divorce, that the writers rethought in the development process.) I'm all in favor of confounding stereotypes, but more than that I'm in favor of not dropping the ball on three season's worth of subtext.

Which is to say, once it's been established that a character faces homophobic bullying, with his own father calling him a "f*g" and his own mother refusing to confirm or deny whether that's accurate, and there are queer-coded references to him painting a "rainbow ship" of which his mom was "so proud," and when his awkward dance with a girl is scored to the line "Every smile you fake" from "Every Breath You Take," and his entire arc for season 3 centers around his jealousy over his best friend's relationship with his girlfriend, and he dresses up in a sparkly purple robe to declare a day without girls while he sasses his friends, and finally the whole thing comes to a head with his best friend snapping "It's not my fault you don't like girls!" it's maybe more likely that all those things are happening because the writers are following through on their initial plans for the character than because of a series of crazy coincidences. "Whoops, we accidentally suggested, over and over again, that the character who we was originally supposed to be gay might be gay!" is not really a thing that happens.

Hey I just hate that they always go with the stereotype. Its never a guy like Steve or Jonathan who question their sexuality on TV shows, its always the quiet artistic ones. If you love Will being gay more power to you. I don't.

[Spartan Girl]

I think the thing about the Steve/Nancy teases is that it feels like a rehash of what happened with Jonathan in season 2. Nancy’s heart was no longer in the relationship with Steve, not only because of her growing feelings for Jonathan, but also because the trauma and guilt over Barb’s death. Steve tried to be supportive, but they just didn’t connect anymore. And up until now, there hadn’t been any feelings between then except friendship and regret for the way she broke up with him.

Now, Nancy and Jonathan have hit a long-distance snag, and suddenly the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. Not saying this makes Nancy a bad person: you’re always going to have some feelings for an ex. But she’s projecting. Steve has become a great guy, and he deserves to have someone really see that. He deserves to be someone’s first choice, not sloppy seconds. Nancy and Jonathan need to communicate better and figure out where they really stand without bringing someone else into their problems. I really hope the writers resolve the plot that way, and all these teases turn out to be just a red herring.

Edited May 30, 2022 by Spartan Girl

[eleanorofaquitaine]

I don't love or hate the idea of Will being gay. But I do think that they've been consistent in the writing since the beginning that points to him being gay. So from a character perspective, I think it makes sense. 

I think one of the things left hanging is why is the Upside Down stuck on November 6th, 1983. Presumably it connects to El's escape from the lab but I wonder if there is more to it.

(One thing that has bugged me since first watching the series is figuring out how it is that Will survived first being transported to the Upside Down. In season one, we're left with the impression that he was grabbed by a demi-gorgon but I am not sure why he wasn't killed on the spot. Maybe they'll answer that question since the Upside Down is still reliving that day).

[eleanorofaquitaine]

5 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

I think the thing about the Steve/Nancy teases is that it feels like a rehash of what happened with Jonathan in season 2. Nancy’s heart was no longer in the relationship with Steve, not only because of her growing feelings for Jonathan, but also because the trauma and guilt over Barb’s death. Steve tried to be supportive, but they just didn’t connect anymore. And up until now, there hadn’t been any feelings between then except friendship and regret for the way she broke up with him.

Now, Nancy and Jonathan have hit a long-distance snag, and suddenly the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. Not saying this makes Nancy a bad person: you’re always going to have some feelings for an ex. But she’s projecting. Steve has become a great guy, and he deserves to have someone really see that. He deserves to be someone’s first choice, not sloppy seconds. Nancy and Jonathan need to communicate better and figure out where they really stand without bringing someone else into their problems. I really hope the writers resolve the plot that way, and all these teas3s turn out to be just a red herring.

So I actually think there might be a plot reason for Steve/Nancy.  It's probably not a mistake that when Nancy was transported to Vecna's lair, she flashed back to the night that Barbara was killed, which is the same night she first had sex with Steve. 

Being around Steve again has stirred up both the feelings she had for him and the feelings of guilt she has about being with him when Barb was killed. Those feelings make her more susceptible to Vecna than she would have had otherwise. So I think that in addition to the good chemistry between Joe Keery and Natalia Dyer, they put them together for the plot.

[Racj82]

On 5/27/2022 at 10:10 PM, absnow54 said:

I forgot they split this season into 2 parts, because the minutes were ticking down, and the groups hadn’t been reunited yet. I think I would have preferred shorter episodes in favor for a tighter story, because this season has really meandered, and while I binged it, it mostly ended up being background noise. 

Exact opposite. The Duffer Brothers can take my money at this point. I'm usually aggravated by extra long episodes but I almost never felt the bloat here, enjoyed the story and was engaged the whole time. 

This isn't an attack on Marvel or Disney because I enjoy a lot of the stuff they drop but this is blockbuster tv done right to me. I can guarantee I won't find 7 movies this summer that will engage, excite or entertain me this much.

Thank God they established here that Dustin's man crush on Steve persists and he brags about him all the time. Dustin being pissy to Steve was getting on my nerves.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Racj82

[Racj82]

4 hours ago, Redrum said:

And, for some odd reason, she was fixated on being best friends with Angela who clearly did not want to be friends and straight up lied to Mike (friends don't lie except when El is doing it) about how she was best friends with Angela and totally loaded with friends. Its not Angela's fault that El had built a weird fantasy in her mind on how they were besties.

Lucas and El were both chasing popularity in groups that ultimately weren't for them. Lucas earned his way in while El tried to fabricate it into existence. Also keep in mind that this is all new to El. Even the bullying is because she shut it out of her memories. The duffers went hard in story, I'm not complaining, but El could have used some time with Joyce talking some of this out.

[Racj82]

12 minutes ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

So I actually think there might be a plot reason for Steve/Nancy.  It's probably not a mistake that when Nancy was transported to Vecna's lair, she flashed back to the night that Barbara was killed, which is the same night she first had sex with Steve. 

Being around Steve again has stirred up both the feelings she had for him and the feelings of guilt she has about being with him when Barb was killed. Those feelings make her more susceptible to Vecna than she would have had otherwise. So I think that in addition to the good chemistry between Joe Keery and Natalia Dyer, they put them together for the plot.

I haven't really understood the big issue some have had here. They both have had very limited full on relationships where they are in love. Steve gets a lot of "attention" but has had very few relationships. Nancy has only had her relationships with Steve and Jonathan. It's only natural that, while both people are in doubt about their love lives, they kind of revert back to each other. It doesn't mean it's going to happen. It's familiar but that doesn't mean it's meant to be. And of course people are team Steve and Nancy within the group. They are basically the mom and dad of the group. They are also great people. Heroic people. Why not be for them? It's no diss on Jonathan but he's just not there right now and they've grown closer with Steve over time as a group.

[Dev F]

1 hour ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

I think one of the things left hanging is why is the Upside Down stuck on November 6th, 1983. Presumably it connects to El's escape from the lab but I wonder if there is more to it.

There are two overarching motifs in season 4 that haven't really been paid off yet: all the stuff with clocks and the variable speed of time and El's comment that "We are all time travelers if you think about it," and everything about people being split in two or combining or deciding whether to be made whole. I wonder if all that relates to the weirdness in the Upside Down. Like, maybe there was some sort of temporal split on the night of November 6, 1983, so that in one timeline the world as we know it was destroyed, and in the other it continued more or less as normal, and the gates are actually connecting those two divergent timelines?

[ch1]

1 hour ago, Racj82 said:

I haven't really understood the big issue some have had here. They both have had very limited full on relationships where they are in love. Steve gets a lot of "attention" but has had very few relationships. Nancy has only had her relationships with Steve and Jonathan. It's only natural that, while both people are in doubt about their love lives, they kind of revert back to each other. It doesn't mean it's going to happen. It's familiar but that doesn't mean it's meant to be. And of course people are team Steve and Nancy within the group. They are basically the mom and dad of the group. They are also great people. Heroic people. Why not be for them? It's no diss on Jonathan but he's just not there right now and they've grown closer with Steve over time as a group.

Robin and Eddie cheerleading them bugged me.  But I was also bothered by the over the top comments the nerdy kid who worked with Nancy made about her.  I just hate that type of writing - too forced and feels like the writers are beating you over the head.

[Fuzzy Logic]

I completely own my shallowness, but I don't care if a real-life Nancy and a real-life Steve wouldn't work out.  I think they spark and I want Joe Keery in a big old swooping romantic scene.  Anybody see Free Guy?  I want that last moment, Stranger Things-style.  And I get why Nancy is the romantic answer now, with just one season and change left to go.  This show has been careful to keep Steve's flame for Nancy burning.  Steve has always labelled that relationship as 'love,' and I think the Duffer Brothers will pay it off next season.  If I had to speculate about the next two episodes, I bet we'll get a flip-flopped bookend of the end of Season One, where we think Jonathan has a shot with Nancy....only to find that she still is with Steve.  This time, I think Robin will pep-talk Steve into telling Nancy how he feels, Steve heads to the Wheeler house...only to find that she is still with Jonathan.  

[eleanorofaquitaine]

IMO, the Duffers have subverted a lot of the usual tropes with the Steve/Nancy relationship from the beginning and one of the ways they've done that is by having Steve be the way who pines for Nancy. They've been pretty consistent with the idea that once they got together, Steve was in love with Nancy. And even in season three, Steve told Robin he had been in love with Nancy. So I don't have any problem with him wanting to reconnect with her. As for Nancy, yes, I think it's not surprising that in a period she feels unsure about her relationship with Jonathan, she's gravitating towards the guy she knows worships her.

But as I said above, I also think that the plot necessitated Nancy having contact with Vecna in order to connect the Creel part of the story with El's experience at the lab. So stirring up Nancy's feelings for Steve and her guilt over Barb, which is also tied to her relationship with Steve from its beginning, gave them a way to connect to Vecna.

[Clanstarling]

On 5/28/2022 at 6:27 PM, Blue Plastic said:

Did El create the Upside Down or did it already exist and El just pushed One into it?  Why are/were there so many telekinetic kids around for Brenner to get his hands on?

I think El just opened the first gate.

On 5/28/2022 at 10:31 PM, nomodrama said:

I'm not happy with the Nancy/Jonathan/Steve triangle coming back. It seemed like a totally plausible storyline that Nancy and Jonathan would go their separate ways and want different paths for their lives going forward but to have Nancy jumping right back into being into Steve seems super lazy. I adore Steve, but I just don't feel like he NEEDS to be with anyone, I think his friendship with Robin and the kids is great, he is finding himself and thats fine. 

I'm so glad that Hopper and Joyce reunited. Can't wait for the second half. 

I don't see it as lazy. Steve's always been in love with Nancy - though he was a douche who didn't quite get it. I've never been clear as to why Nancy was into Jonathan at all, in a romantic way. I didn't see them as a real couple, ever. And now Jonathan's moved from general mopiness to smoking a lot of dope and deliberately distancing himself from her. Steve on the other hand, while not being the most ambitious guy, has turned into a great guy and admires Nancy for who she is. They've really become different people than they were at the onset of the show. So I can see it, and I like the idea.

14 hours ago, QuantumMechanic said:

It does seem strange he didn’t kill Brenner when he killed all those other people.

Brenner was unconscious and injured, though it is a little odd that he wasn't more thorough.

I've liked this season so far. I'm looking forward to the two episodes in July. The Russia plot was slow, but I think it paid off pretty well in this episode.

[steelyis]

7 hours ago, Redrum said:

Agree. I'll ignore the "he so ugly" issue - the heart wants what the heart wants after all but yeah, Mike is a pretty self centered guy at the end of the day. 

El fawns over him because she's emotionally immature, he's her first real friend and they've shared some horrifically scary moments. She also doesn't have any sort of idea what she's supposed to want so she sees Mike from purely her own experiences- Mike is the guy who rescued her and helped her and who adores her, therefore he's a great guy. 

I feel like they are going in the gay direction as well and I wish they weren't.

I don't think he'd be more than wistful about Mike because you know what? Gay kids aren't idiots. They know if they find someone attractive and that person is demonstrably straight. Mike is demonstrably straight. I wouldn't want him with Mike anyway because Mike is kind of an asshole to him.

But I don't like "and btw Will IS gay" because I hate it when shows go with stereotypes. Who is gay here? The athletic black kid? The ugly kid who is intellectually arrogant? The kid with the physical disability issue? Nope, all three have girl friends. But the quiet artistic kid who is actually good looking and who has a mother who is kind of over protective and no real father figure? Yup always gay. Just like how the lesbian girl is usually not traditionally pretty or into girly things and useful in a fight while the traditionally pretty girl is of course straight and always in a love triangle. 

But then Will is so set apart at this point - I joked with a friend that this show ends with Will Byers's inevitable suicide because nothing good happens to him. 

I'd feel a hundred percent better about Will and his possible queerness if the show did something tangible with it. I understand the series takes place during a period in American history when being anything other than straight would be a serious and dangerous issue for Will to deal with, but all this... pussy-footing, if you'll pardon the expression, is frustrating. It feels cynical and queerbait-y. A way for the creators to say: "Hey, we have a kinda sorta maybe gay kid (who we don't actually showcase all that much lately) as a main character! Aren't we inclusive?"

[Brn2bwild]

After watching all of the episodes, it seems like the key to beating Vecna isn't listening to music, but having a happy memory.  Max was able to get away from Vecna after she remembered all the happy moments she shared with her friends.  El defeated One/Vecna after she recalled a happy memory (?) of her mother greeting her.  

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

Brenner was unconscious and injured, though it is a little odd that he wasn't more thorough.

Maybe he wanted Brenner to learn what he (One) had done.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Brn2bwild

[Racj82]

10 minutes ago, steelyis said:

I'd feel a hundred percent better about Will and his possible queerness if the show did something tangible with it. I understand the series takes place during a period in American history when being anything other than straight would be a serious and dangerous issue for Will to deal with, but all this... pussy-footing, if you'll pardon the expression, is frustrating. It feels cynical and queerbait-y. A way for the creators to say: "Hey, we have a kinda sorta maybe gay kid (who we don't actually showcase all that much lately) as a main character! Aren't we inclusive?"

They already have a queer character so they don't actually have to do this.

I think Will and Robin are both showing two sides of the same spectrum if that makes sense. They are both terrified of the repercussions of coming out. For Robin, it's more of a outward general thing. She's not ready for the world to know. To be judged.

With Will, it's much more personal. Its the same fear as any crush on a friend. Will I lose the friend? Will they judge me? But, wrapped in much bigger consequences. I've learned a long time ago to not judge someone else's coming out process. It's a weird, scary, risky thing for a lot of people. So, a fictional version of that doesn't bother me.

Will has also had part of his childhood ripped from him. He's had less time to figure out his own emotions. He's kept it all inside. His friends all aged up past him development wise. It makes sense to me. 

There also has never been a good time to drop all this. He probably wasn't sure how he felt about Mike pre upside down. Now, Mike is basically with his sister. He may not even be gay per se. He may be bi or just really loves Will and not necessarily boys. 

Like I've said about El, Joyce is long overdue to have some real talks with her children. She is raising three children going through some serious real world stuff issues and she seemingly never clocked it.

[Redrum]

9 minutes ago, steelyis said:

I'd feel a hundred percent better about Will and his possible queerness if the show did something tangible with it

This. You put it so much better than I did. There's two episodes left. Nothing relevant to the storyline involves Will coming out of the closet except scoring points in diversity. 

15 minutes ago, steelyis said:

A way for the creators to say: "Hey, we have a kinda sorta maybe gay kid (who we don't actually showcase all that much lately) as a main character! Aren't we inclusive?"

And this. "Oh look the kid we've had called a f** by his dad in season one REALLY IS GAY"

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

don't see it as lazy. Steve's always been in love with Nancy - though he was a douche who didn't quite get it.

This. Doing a rewatch of season one right now and Steve is a grade A asshole at times but he also really seemed in love with Nancy even though he didn't really understand his feelings.

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

've never been clear as to why Nancy was into Jonathan at all, in a romantic way. I didn't see them as a real couple, ever. And now Jonathan's moved from general mopiness to smoking a lot of dope and deliberately distancing himself from her.

I do think Nancy and Jonathan were a genuine couple but I think he realistically understood that the distance and college was killing the relationship. I hate the dope thing this season.

[MamaGee]

41 minutes ago, steelyis said:

Hey, we have a kinda sorta maybe gay kid (who we don't actually showcase all that much lately) as a main character! Aren't we inclusive?"

What annoys me is they already have a gay character. 

[jacehan]

On 5/28/2022 at 11:22 PM, Demian said:

I know it's a TV show and everything, but there is no way in hell Nancy has the upper-body strength to climb that bedsheet.

Well, she didn't actually climb it - that was all in her head.

[steelyis]

56 minutes ago, Racj82 said:

They already have a queer character so they don't actually have to do this.

39 minutes ago, MamaGee said:

What annoys me is they already have a gay character. 

Much as I adore Robin, and I do adore her, she isn't one of the mains. Even though I feel like she's gotten more focus when it comes not only to expressing her sexuality, but also in terms of screen time when compared to Will. And let's be honest, while the show talks a good game about Robin's queerness, they have yet to put it on real display. Just like with Will. There's been a lot very cute pining for another girl (which sounds all too familiar!) who we don't know is gay, or if she's even interested in Robin if she is.

I can't be impressed there's gay characters when they aren't shown doing anything gay. I don't need to see full on sex scenes or anything like that, but some explicit words of affection, or a little hand holding would go a long way. Hell, a kiss or two would be nice, too! 

[DearEvette]

Well... that was a good episode all around and explained some things.  Sure we got a villain monologue, but it was a good one.  I like how 001 incorporated his love of spiders into his prison world.  Nancy's comment of the things in the upside down having a 'hive mind' makes sense finally. 

The actor who plays 001 has the sort of face that belongs to a demented supervillain.  Not unattractive, just cold and menacing.  The little kid who played him as kid Creel was just a beautiful child.

Speaking of looks...

On 5/29/2022 at 1:16 AM, Redrum said:

I'm terribly shallow. My god, the kid playing Mike is one unattractive kid.

I think Finn Wolfhard has a very striking face that as of this filiming is still in a somewhat gangly/awkward phase.  Everything about it is just exaggerated -- that nose, those cheekbones.  I think when he grows into it as he gets older and maybe fills out a little bit -- he'll be stunning.  There is a romance novelist who writes paranormal romances who tweeted that she is disappointed that Finn Wolfhard isn't actually a werewolf because he has the perfect name and looks of what a wolf shifter should be.  LOL.

10 hours ago, MamaGee said:

 Sadly, these episodes made it very clear to me that there are some of the group of kids that I really like (those in Hawkins minus Nancy) and those I don't really like. (All of the other kids, even El) Will is whiny, Mike is manic and oblivious, and Jonathan is becoming a slacker? I mean, I can't really remember who he was before any of this so maybe he was a slacker all along. I know he wasn't popular. 

The kids still in Hawkins are the ones who, to me, have personalities and while they may have been a little forced on us, they are still likeable. Dustin needs his ego checked but he's still the little nerd who keeps his radio walkie-talkie ready to go. Lucas and Max have had worries going on inside them that they have been dealing with. Lucas' little sister is the shizzle. All the sass that comes out of that growing mouth is fabulous. And I really like Eddie a.k.a. Robert Downey Jr.'s little brother.

I do think there are some kids who have been given stronger personalities that make them a little more interesting and can carry some scenes on their own -- El, Dustin, Max, Robin, Steve, Nancy, new guy Eddie, and even Erica.  And there are others who need to work with the group.  But overall I like it best when they are all doing stuff together as a whole group.  The strongest parts of the show are when they are all together solving shit and working with each other.  I just about cheered when they started communicating via the  Lite Brite and then we got the scenes of the younger Hawkins crew riding bikes and then we got the trippy camera swipe scene with the upside down older teens  riding bikes in the upside down as they went to Eddie's house.  I really felt bad that El, Mike and Will were off on their own and not a part of this. 

AS for the rest, this was best episode for both the El in the compound scenes and the Russian Gulag scenes for me.  Finally the Russian stuff felt interesting to me and I loved the look on Hopper's face when he saw Joyce.  Like at first he couldn't believe it and when he finally did he smiled.  As for El, yeah her stuff with 001 was well done and we got a lot of nice fill-in-the-blanks explanation.  One thing... the kid who played 10 (the one with the magic eight ball) looked so familiar to me,  And then I realized he was on an episode of 9-1-1 where he played a kid being poisoned by his mother in a Münchhausen by Proxy thing and he looked exactly the same -- all pale and shaven head and sickly looking.  Hopefully he'll get to act in something where he can smile and has better hair.

I can't wait for Hopper to make it back to USA (and I agree -- please no drawn out scenes of them trekking through the Russian steppes or some such) and see El and for El to show up with her powers.  I want to see Eddie's reaction to her since his reaction to everything else so far has been great. 

It was a good half season, but because it isn't done can't say where it'll fall for me.  Right now it is better than S3.  Although S3 ended great.  So I am hoping this really sticks the landing. 

[bunnyblue]

I can't be the only one who got an icky feeling when 001/Henry said that when Brenner realized he could not control him he decided to "recreate me...he began a program and soon others were born...you were born". Uh, are they implying that Brenner extracted young Henry's baby making juice and impregnated women (including Terry) with the intention of creating a bunch of little telepathic Henrys?? I know what they told us in season 2 about Brenner's MK Ultra program and the use of drugs, but it seems like using Henry's DNA to create an army of telepaths could also be right up Brenner's alley. Could El now have 3 fathers?! Also Henry telling El that together they could reshape the world and remake it however they see fit, "join me", sounded suspiciously like Darth Vader trying to convince his son Luke Skywalker to rule the galaxy together.

I hope Eleven didn't create the Upside Down. I know she's super powerful but I think it'd be bordering on the absurd if she's so powerful as to create another dimension. I hope it's just that she opened the gate that sent 001/Henry into the UD and that's how Brenner & the government became aware of its existence and began to exploit it. 

Edited May 31, 2022 by bunnyblue

[ch1]

2 hours ago, steelyis said:

I'd feel a hundred percent better about Will and his possible queerness if the show did something tangible with it. I understand the series takes place during a period in American history when being anything other than straight would be a serious and dangerous issue for Will to deal with, but all this... pussy-footing, if you'll pardon the expression, is frustrating. It feels cynical and queerbait-y. A way for the creators to say: "Hey, we have a kinda sorta maybe gay kid (who we don't actually showcase all that much lately) as a main character! Aren't we inclusive?"

I agree with this.  You really have to wonder if this is going to lead anywhere or if it’s a way to give Will (and Mike honestly since he is not allowed to be anything but El’s boyfriend) something to do without really giving them something to do because they really have no interest in these characters.

[Racj82]

3 hours ago, steelyis said:

Much as I adore Robin, and I do adore her, she isn't one of the mains. Even though I feel like she's gotten more focus when it comes not only to expressing her sexuality, but also in terms of screen time when compared to Will. And let's be honest, while the show talks a good game about Robin's queerness, they have yet to put it on real display. Just like with Will. There's been a lot very cute pining for another girl (which sounds all too familiar!) who we don't know is gay, or if she's even interested in Robin if she is.

I can't be impressed there's gay characters when they aren't shown doing anything gay. I don't need to see full on sex scenes or anything like that, but some explicit words of affection, or a little hand holding would go a long way. Hell, a kiss or two would be nice, too! 

We've literally not seen any of the kids hooking up this season. Straight or gay. They aren't teasing you. They aren't queer bating. There is no time to delve into it right now. So, they are giving little sprinkles of where EVERYONE is at romantically without having full plots about it. 

Also, they are characters. They don't need to "do anything gay" to define their sexuality. We still don't know what or how actually Will is actually feeling to put expectations on it and Robin is very much a main character. She's a part of the main cast and the main group. Her not being there from the beginning or whatever doesn't exclude that. 

I can see an issue with teasing out Will's possible feelings for Mike for too long. But, that is all I care about. Will hasn't had much character progression period. Whether or not he comes out, kisses a boy or anything of that nature is secondary to me. I want to see Will come out of his shell. I feel like he's been trapped one way or another since season 1 episode 1.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Racj82

[Sarah 103]

On 5/27/2022 at 11:51 PM, bettername2come said:

I like that Eddie and Steve admitted to mutual jealousy over Dustin. And that Eddie talked about how Steve was a good guy.

Karate Murray is fun. I want his action figure. 

Eddie and Steve talking about Dustin was wonderful. It was great that Steve realized Dustin still cared about him. A Karate Murray action figure is now something that absolutely has to exist. Merch team, get on it! 

On 5/28/2022 at 9:27 PM, Blue Plastic said:

Did El create the Upside Down or did it already exist and El just pushed One into it?  Why are/were there so many telekinetic kids around for Brenner to get his hands on?

I was glad Enzo got out and survived.  I like him and Hopper together.

I think the Upside Down already existed and that El pushed One into.

Brenner created the kids through something related to project MK Ultra. 

I loved Enzo and Hopper talking about how hard it is to raise teenagers. 

On 5/29/2022 at 1:16 AM, Redrum said:

How did Eight miss out on this?

By 1979, Eight had already escaped the lab. 

On 5/29/2022 at 11:53 AM, Emily Thrace said:

Just because MK Ultra used LSD doesn't mean that was what Brenner used exclusively. Plus that would fit with my theory that Brenner is an ex Nazi scientist.

I wonderded about Brenner being an ex Nazi scientist who came to the U.S as part of Operation Paperclip too. I'm bad at figuring how old characters are unless given something specific (they say what year they were in a particular grade, or mention something similar) and I'm horrible with math, so I have no idea if the timeline fits. 

On 5/29/2022 at 12:58 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

4. Speaking of "No, there is another," shouldn't El or a number of other people have pointed out that as far as we know, 8 and her band of superpowered peeps are still around and might be of some use?

I'm hoping this is the case, because otherwise the episode with Eight and her gang was a total waste of an episode or just another backdoor pilot that never went anywhere. Also, of the heroic/good guy characters on the show, isn't El the only one who knows that Eight and her gang exist? 

8 hours ago, Redrum said:

Hey I just hate that they always go with the stereotype. Its never a guy like Steve or Jonathan who question their sexuality on TV shows, its always the quiet artistic ones. If you love Will being gay more power to you. I don't.

At the start of the series, Jonathan is one of the quiet artistic ones. He is very much an outcast at school and doesn't have a group of friends like Will. Jonathan is into photography and wants to go to NYU. 

1 hour ago, steelyis said:

I can't be impressed there's gay characters when they aren't shown doing anything gay. I don't need to see full on sex scenes or anything like that, but some explicit words of affection, or a little hand holding would go a long way. Hell, a kiss or two would be nice, too! 

Robin did an excellent job of explaining why this isn't happening early in this season. She knows what the stakes and consequences are if she comes out to the wrong person and makes a move that isn't reciprocated. Her life will be miserable and she doesn't want to risk it. This is from someone who has her sexuality figured out. I'm not sure if Will knows what he is yet. 

Last season, I thought Will was not yet interested in girls, because not everyone starts being interested in dating and romantic partners the same time. This season, when I saw Will pull away from the girl playing footsie with him, I started to wonder if he might be gay after all. It's still possible he wasn't interested in her specifically, but it made me wonder.