S04.E06: Chapter Six: The Dive

[Sarah 103]

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Poor Steve, he finally gets released from babysitting duty and then almost immediately gets sucked under water and into Mordor and gets strangled and attacked by demon bats. Of course the trio of Nancy/Robin/Eddie are going to save him, but that looks painful. Its not a season of Stranger Things until Steve suffers from particularly unfortunate physical abuse.

I'll bet Steve won't be so quick to want to get out of babysitting duty next time. I hadn't thought about Steve suffering some form of physical abuse as the Stranger Things version of someone getting an arm/hand cut off in Star Wars, but you make a good point. 

[Capricasix]

23 hours ago, steelyis said:

You're right, but I think Suzie was the only person in the room who understood that kind of tracing is possible. Btw, it's legit shocking how little those nerds knew about computers and the internet! Hopefully, Suzie was canny enough to protect herself from any blow-back.

IIRC very few people had home computers in the mid-80s, and the Internet simply didn’t become widely known until the invention of the web in 1993/94. Yes, people e-mailed and dialed into BBSes before that, but as far as I can recall in the small town that I grew up in, very few would have known anything about the Internet (if that’s even what it was called back then).

8 hours ago, Captain Asshat said:

As D&D gained popularity in the early-to-mid 80s, there was a ton of pearl clutching about it. I remember articles and news magazine stories about D&D players not being able to separate reality from fantasy and how they were all going to snap and kill people. I'm fairly sure the Newsweek article someone was reading in an earlier ep was real. It's not a far leap that a small town would easily get whipped into a frenzy about it.

I mentioned above that I grew up in a small town - it was in rural Ontario, Canada. In 1984, two young siblings (I think they were like nine and 10 yrs old or so) were murdered by a friend of their older brother’s. I remember hearing rumours that he was heavily involved in D&D and that had something to do with why he killed them. In the end, I think it came out that he’d had a psychotic break or something similar - nothing to do with D&D.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Capricasix

[eleanorofaquitaine]

52 minutes ago, Capricasix said:

IIRC very few people had home computers in the mid-80s, and the Internet simply didn’t become widely known until the invention of the web in 1993/94. Yes, people e-mailed and dialed into BBSes before that, but as far as I can recall in the small town that I grew up in, very few would have known anything about the Internet (if that’s even what it was called back then).

My mother worked for a major computer company for most of her career. We had a home computer in this period, and we were aware that computer networks existed because my mother used to be able to dial into her work network. 

But I had no idea that networks extended beyond her company. The idea of the Internet being something larger than her company's intranet was completely foreign. So yeah, I think it's entirely possible that Suzie was the only one aware of network tracing or what have you. Even those of us who grew up in households with exposure to computer networks didn't really understand the potential of the Internet as a network. 

[QuantumMechanic]

In the early to mid 1980s, for people not at college or the right kind of tech companies, the only “computer networks” they would have known about were Compuserve and FIDOnet BBSes.

[festivus]

I would be more worried for my Steve, but Ally Sheedy Eden got me thinking. So far Vecna has murdered the cheerleader/princess, the jock, and the nerd. I think Max could qualify for the outsider/basketcase type. So I think I need to be more worried about Eddie the rebel. Don't die Eddie!

Susie's family was funny. I think little Cornelius might be a feral child, lol. I also noticed those braided barrettes in her hair. I remember them being earlier 80s but she probably inherited them from Eden. I'm just waiting for someone to have the armful of colored plastic bracelets. How did we even get anything done with all that clacking?

[Taryn74]

On 5/30/2022 at 5:15 AM, Writing Wrongs said:

Also I remember back then that people were freaking out about the Procter & Gamble symbol on their products. Saying it was Satanic.

When 1980s Satanic Panic Targeted Procter & Gamble

OMG I had totally repressed that.

I do, however, remember all the hyped up terror over the EVVVILLLLLL rock and metal music. KISS stood for Knights In Satan's Service. Backward masking was totally plausible. Ozzy meant to bite the head off that bat. (To be fair, he did run with it after the rumors started, because he's Ozzy LOL.) There were books, ya'll, whole entire books devoted to perusing even the most benign rock lyrics for subliminal messages. SMH

I'm finally getting into the Russia subplot! Woohoo! Pissed as HELL that Owens is working with Brenner though.

Suzy's family was a hoot. I do wonder where her mother was, though.

[moonshine71]

21 hours ago, Captain Asshat said:

As D&D gained popularity in the early-to-mid 80s, there was a ton of pearl clutching about it. I remember articles and news magazine stories about D&D players not being able to separate reality from fantasy and how they were all going to snap and kill people. I'm fairly sure the Newsweek article someone was reading in an earlier ep was real. It's not a far leap that a small town would easily get whipped into a frenzy about 

Enough that a movie was made and aired on network tv about a D&D like game where kids lost touch w/ reality and did crazy shit. With a young Tom Hanks.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0084314/

[Redrum]

2 hours ago, moonshine71 said:

Enough that a movie was made and aired on network tv about a D&D like game where kids lost touch w/ reality and did crazy shit. With a young Tom Hanks.

Thats supposedly based on the James Dallas Egbert case but in reality that disappearance had little to nothing to do with D&D. Egbert was a 16 year old in college that was gay and doing a lot of drugs and suffered from depression. He also sometimes played D&D in the campus underground tunnels. He went into the tunnels to kill himself due to the pressure of being gay and a genius. It wasn't successful, he hid with some friends/may have been held by some friends who were gay who were worried about the repercussions of letting  a 16 year old into their circle, and he was released/escaped a few weeks later. 

There's a book called The Dungeon Master written by William Dear the private investigator who found/rescued Egbert. He waited until Egbert died of a suicide attempt to release the full story - Egbert didn't want his younger brother to suffer embarrassment over the gay aspects, so the media in the mean time ran wild with "Genius teen went crazy playing D&D". 

That he played D&D was a minor issue. That he was a 16 year old kid in college with no support system and plenty of access to drugs and suffering from depression is why he tried to kill himself and ultimately did kill himself. 

Mazes and Monsters is an interesting film in that it does seriously touch on the way D&D was presented as the devil's game. However if you decide to watch it, please be forewarned that there's a significant plot line revolving around the World Trade Center that can be.... unintentionally triggery. 

[Clanstarling]

16 hours ago, CarpeFelis said:

I was a working software developer then and also didn’t know much about the Internet at that point in time. Few people did until the ‘90s. All I knew was a college friend who was a computer science major had been playing with something called Arpanet in the late ‘70s.

Same. I was in tech, my husband a software developer. I hopped right on it when it became a thing - wondering how anyone was ever going to remember those crazy URLS. 🤣

[DearEvette]

I was always pretty tuned into tech.  I was pretty active on the Usenet discussion boards in the late 80s.  I 100% remember seeing Mosaic (web browser) for the first time in the mid 90s.  I think the first web page I saw was the Pulp Fiction (movie) web page somebody did.  I thought  it was just the coolest thing ever.

[BlackberryJam]

Anyone remember FreeNet and the FreeNet chat features?

[Blue Plastic]

I never knew about any of that computer stuff in the 80s.  We had a Commodore 64 and that was it. I had some cool games on there like Jeopardy!  LOL. But I thought it was fun. Never knew a thing about networks or the internet until the 90s.

It does sort of seem like one of the OG kids would know about it and not have to rely on Susie, but then I didn’t know about it either.

[Clanstarling]

48 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

I was always pretty tuned into tech.  I was pretty active on the Usenet discussion boards in the late 80s.  I 100% remember seeing Mosaic (web browser) for the first time in the mid 90s.  I think the first web page I saw was the Pulp Fiction (movie) web page somebody did.  I thought  it was just the coolest thing ever.

I bought a pc in 1984 (the year of Apple's Mac commercial - Think different(ly)?) I was a tech writer, and had to learn Basic for a job. I did not get an Apple, I'd worked there and had not been impressed with the product. My PC was faster.

At the time, a contractor friend of mine was working on a project trying to implement multiple windows - I didn't really understand how that worked, and look at us now! So many things I encountered early on are major now - or have risen and died over the years.

The first website I started following was IMDB, right from the get go.

[BlackberryJam]

I think my first computer experience was 80? 81? Learning things like 10 Print 20 goto 10. They’d done testing on us all in the mid-70s and pulled certain kids into special classes for half a day two or three times per week. We got to play with computers and do logic grid problems and generally not be a total pain in the ass because of boredom in regular classes. 

I didn’t “get” the appeal of computers until early 90s when it became about communication with others and not just playing games. 

I was a usenet fan! *waves to all my old usenet peeps*

[Taryn74]

2 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

wondering how anyone was ever going to remember those crazy URLS. 🤣

LOL. My BIL and SIL got internet before hubby and I could even afford a computer, we would go over there and I would play on their computer but I had no idea how to look things up on the internet so I just played computer games (while they all, fittingly enough, played D&D or other RPG's). SIL knew I was really into X-Files at the time so she asked me one night why didn't I look up any XF message boards or anything. I thought you had to know an actual URL to be able to find anything, so it completely blew my mind that you could just do a search and find whatever you were looking for. Ah, sweet summer child.

[bosawks]

All I remember about D&D is being forced to play when my older brother and his friends were short a player.

I always seemed to be some sort of elfin creature thing that seemingly had no powers and was eaten by the end.

I would have easily believed that the game was spawned by the devil…..

[Kel Varnsen]

Funniest part for me was in the town meeting to discuss all the gruesome murders, Nancy's dad made sure to grab two doughnuts.

Also speaking of Nancy, if someone you know is going near a gate to the upside down, maybe give them a little briefing on what to expect if they end up there. Because unless I am mistaken, she is the only person left in Hawkins who has actually been to the U-D before Steve got pulled in.

On 5/29/2022 at 7:08 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

There was the reference to Erica using Lucas' hush money to buy herself an NES with Duck Hunt (which IIRC was the game packaged with it initially anyway), but as you say, she's not a main character.

If I remember the version of the NES that came with Duck Hunt was the more expensive version. Since it also came with the Zapper.

[methodwriter85]

On 6/1/2022 at 12:47 AM, Taryn74 said:

Suzy's family was a hoot. I do wonder where her mother was, though.

I'm guessing in wacky 80's movie hijinks, she's on a trip and the family is going feral without her. Or she just went back to work.

I loved Alison from the Breakfast Club being pissed that Suzy wasn't helping out with the little kids. That feels incredibly spot on with sisters, especially sisters that are close in age and have to deal with babysitting duty. I am kinda surprised that Suzy managed to have her own room, but that was also a pretty big house.

Edited June 3, 2022 by methodwriter85

[Anela]

On 5/27/2022 at 10:11 PM, bettername2come said:

I'm getting some Jaws vibes from the town meeting with the whole "you didn't tell us after the first person was killed!" thing. Oh, Jason the basketball captain keeps getting worse. I respect that he's trying to stop murders but he's so off-base. Oh, the parents are going to team up. I think I needed to see Erica and Holly being smarter than their parents together. I mean, Holly saw Max's drawings she's not stupid. She knows something's up. All Wheeler kids are smarter than their parents. 

I love that they just lied to Suzie. Argyle's in on it, Eddie's in, but Suzie helped save the world and gets told nothing, "Not only was I breaking the law, I was dating an agnostic." Bwahahaha. "What's the internet?" "Can you print this?" "No, my skills end at IP geolocation." "I think we spooked a skunk." There's a lot of fun happening at Suzie's house. 

"You're asking me to follow you into Mordor which, if I'm totally straight with you, I think is a really bad idea. But the Shire...the Shire is burning. So Mordor it is." Ok, I like Eddie. I love that the old teens still protected the younger set by abandoning them on the shore. And that Robin put Nancy in charge. Max getting the binoculars to check out shirtless Steve for just a little too long was funny. I love that Nancy went in after Steve, and then Robin and Eddie went in after them. "She's in charge!" "Are you kidding? I made that shit up."

I did enjoy Enzo and Hopper laughing over getting fire to fight the demogorgon.

I was thinking of Jaws, too, but mainly when Steve was pulled down into the water, and that gate. 

At Suzie's house, I felt like we'd side-stepped into something like the Umbrella Academy, or Lemony Snicket. 

I've been checked out of some of the other scenes, the Russian scenes. Maybe I'll try to watch it again another time. I am loving the scenes with the kids, and the older teens. That they protected the younger ones. I wonder if the other parents will now be clued into what's really going on. 

I was thinking that Will's parents wouldn't be happy with their son being sent to a home, where Joyce just up and leaves the kids, but it was the 80s. I was ten or eleven, at this stage in the show (going by their ages), and we were left alone a lot. 

I remember the Satanic Panic, although I found out about that in my late teens, after we'd been back in the States for a while. I think the movie about that school, is on HBO Max, with James Woods as a lawyer.

[Anela]

On 6/1/2022 at 11:49 AM, Blue Plastic said:

I never knew about any of that computer stuff in the 80s.  We had a Commodore 64 and that was it. I had some cool games on there like Jeopardy!  LOL. But I thought it was fun. Never knew a thing about networks or the internet until the 90s.

It does sort of seem like one of the OG kids would know about it and not have to rely on Susie, but then I didn’t know about it either.

My cousin had a Commodore 64, and an Atari. They were the type of family that could somehow afford that sort of thing. My first computer was bought from the boy nextdoor, and it connected to the TV and a tape player. I feel ancient, now. I also got a secondhand atari for my birthday, and would play Pigs in Space, when I couldn't sleep. I wasn't on the internet until something like 1996, 

[Kel Varnsen]

Oh yea did anyone else think that when that orderly guy talked he sounded like a weird combination of Mr. Rodgers and Willy Wonka (Gene Wilder)?

[CailynA]

Replying before reading;

Holy bleepity bleep bleep bleep bleeping bleep am I tired of watching Eleven cry. I get that she's emotionally stunted. I get that she's in a shitty AF situation. I really do but for four seasons now the vast majority of the time the girl has been crying, screaming, or both at the same time. 

Other than that, yep Jason went straight for it's still Eddie's fault as I expected and of course he got the town stirred up. Really great that no one cut off the mike or actually tried to stop him from talking.

And yay the groups are even now more split up again /s

I literally LOLed at how long Max looked at Steve through the binoculars. I love Suzie. Argylle is awesome. Yay, Steve got to not just be the babysitter, and awe he took the dive, but noooo they better not kill him off now.

WTH is the CA gang gonna do when they get to the coordinates in Nevada and find a door in the desert?

[Kel Varnsen]

2 hours ago, CailynA said:

WTH is the CA gang gonna do when they get to the coordinates in Nevada and find a door in the desert?

I just want to know how they are going to find the exact coordinates. It is not like the maps you could buy at a gas station had exact latitude and longitude. Is Will going to bust out his trusty sextant?

Edited June 4, 2022 by Kel Varnsen

[CeeBeeGee]

On 6/1/2022 at 1:31 PM, Taryn74 said:

LOL. My BIL and SIL got internet before hubby and I could even afford a computer, we would go over there and I would play on their computer but I had no idea how to look things up on the internet so I just played computer games (while they all, fittingly enough, played D&D or other RPG's). SIL knew I was really into X-Files at the time so she asked me one night why didn't I look up any XF message boards or anything. I thought you had to know an actual URL to be able to find anything, so it completely blew my mind that you could just do a search and find whatever you were looking for. Ah, sweet summer child.

Deja News. The heir to Usenet boards, I believe. (And Google groups took up the mantle, I believe.) I posted religiously on alt.tv.x-files.

I love hearing about the early internet (there was a fantastic mini-series a few years ago about the late '90s tech boom called Valley of the Boom) and early computer adoption. Utterly fascinating series. My dad had a computer in the early-mid '80s and I remember playing the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy game and constantly getting stuck on one page. And my older brother and I taught ourselves to code--it must have been Basic.

On 6/3/2022 at 3:05 AM, methodwriter85 said:

I loved Alison from the Breakfast Club being pissed that Suzy wasn't helping out with the little kids.

I SO thought that was Ally Sheedy at first! I was thinking "what a get, I wonder why I haven't seen publicity that they were able to cast Sheedy" and then I remembered how old she must be. Around the age of white-haired Matthew Modine, actually!

I'm calling it now, One killed all the people in the lab massacre.

[Taryn74]

18 minutes ago, CeeBeeGee said:

I posted religiously on alt.tv.x-files.

My "home" was GertieBeth's site but I did browse that one some too. Good times. (The BEST times, actually. 🥰)

19 minutes ago, CeeBeeGee said:

I SO thought that was Ally Sheedy at first! I was thinking "what a get, I wonder why I haven't seen publicity that they were able to cast Sheedy" and then I remembered how old she must be. Around the age of white-haired Matthew Modine, actually!

Ha! I thought, damn, she didn't age at all! LOLOL

[Capricasix]

3 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

Deja News. The heir to Usenet boards, I believe. (And Google groups took up the mantle, I believe.) I posted religiously on alt.tv.x-files.

Heh. Shipper or noromo? 😄

[CeeBeeGee]

1 hour ago, Capricasix said:

Heh. Shipper or noromo? 😄

Kind of a shipper but I had a different take on it. My take was that they should've banged at least once--and then never talked about it ever again. Because one of the takeaways from TXF is that when you don't talk about something, you give it a lot of power. (This is also a WASP credo--Carter representation of WASP culture through Mulder's family is unevenly rendered (you can tell he wasn't one, WASPs don't actually live on the Vineyard unless they're retired) but he got that right. We simply Do Not Discuss certain things.)

But I could never understand the hardcore noromos. How could you not ship them, at least a little bit? They were so clearly each other's bae? Mulder saying "you're my one in 5 billion" in Folie a Deux?

[Taryn74]

1 hour ago, CeeBeeGee said:

But I could never understand the hardcore noromos. How could you not ship them, at least a little bit?

I was a hardcore shipper, hubby was an almost-hardcore noromo.  We had some quite amusing discussions about it. I honestly never could understand how he didn't FEEL the tension between them. It was always so palatable, even from the very beginning.

But this isn't the XF board, so......topic. Ummm, Nancy and Jonathan are the ones who have no chemistry? At least not anymore? LOL. That's all I've got right now.

[Sarah 103]

1 hour ago, Taryn74 said:

Ummm, Nancy and Jonathan are the ones who have no chemistry? At least not anymore? LOL. That's all I've got right now.

I think you may be onto something. At one point Nancy and Jonathan did have chemistry, but it seems like it faded. I guess they couldn't really handle a long-distance relationship (which is hard for adults, let alone teenagers). It's possible that maybe all Nancy and Jonathan had was shared trauma. Nancy and Steve had a relationship before all of the madness with the Upside-Down and the supernatural. The advantage is that Steve early on became aware of the madness, was and still is an active participant and is someone she can talk to about all the crazy stuff happening. 

[Athena]

15 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

I think you may be onto something. At one point Nancy and Jonathan did have chemistry, but it seems like it faded. I guess they couldn't really handle a long-distance relationship (which is hard for adults, let alone teenagers). It's possible that maybe all Nancy and Jonathan had was shared trauma. Nancy and Steve had a relationship before all of the madness with the Upside-Down and the supernatural. The advantage is that Steve early on became aware of the madness, was and still is an active participant and is someone she can talk to about all the crazy stuff happening. 

When Jonathan and Nancy first got together, they had chemistry. They had things in common including their brothers being in trouble and journalism. Jonathan was presented as the more intellectual and emotionally available option in the triangle. If you take away their mutual interests and you compare it to Steve's character arc in the last few seasons, Jonathan does not have as much to offer anymore. I think he/the writers know it too because he's basically become a one dimensional pothead babysitter. I think the actor has to take some of this blame. Whatever his activities in his personal life, he has aged significantly more so than even the other older teen actors. Joe Keery's Steve has become a fan favourite. He's getting more lines, more story, and one of the directors even cast him on a big budget film. 

[Redrum]

4 minutes ago, Athena said:

f you take away their mutual interests and you compare it to Steve's character arc in the last few seasons, Jonathan does not have as much to offer anymore. I think he/the writers know it too because he's basically become a one dimensional pothead babysitter.

I mean, in fairness, Jonathan never really, from a story standpoint, gets to interact in the main circle until usually the season finale of every season. He's Will's brother and Nancy's guy and after season one thats pretty much the only people he interacts with - Joyce hangs out with Sam and Hopper in later seasons. Also its always a grim part of the story when Jonathan is in it.  Meanwhile Steve typically gets jumped from one crazy and humorous plot with the main circle to the next. And frankly, the actor is a bit more engaging than the actor who plays Jonathan. 

I was hoping that the "not going to college with Nancy" stuff would go somewhere - I think there's a lot to be said about Nancy's inability to see that Jonathan is really not going to be able to afford a four year college ride.  (and yes we all know stories of how poor kids can get scholarships to Ivy league schools but for every kid you see in the news who pulls a "Hillbilly Elegy", there's hundreds left behind). 

[Clanstarling]

7 minutes ago, Redrum said:

I mean, in fairness, Jonathan never really, from a story standpoint, gets to interact in the main circle until usually the season finale of every season. He's Will's brother and Nancy's guy and after season one thats pretty much the only people he interacts with - Joyce hangs out with Sam and Hopper in later seasons. Also its always a grim part of the story when Jonathan is in it.  Meanwhile Steve typically gets jumped from one crazy and humorous plot with the main circle to the next. And frankly, the actor is a bit more engaging than the actor who plays Jonathan. 

I was hoping that the "not going to college with Nancy" stuff would go somewhere - I think there's a lot to be said about Nancy's inability to see that Jonathan is really not going to be able to afford a four year college ride.  (and yes we all know stories of how poor kids can get scholarships to Ivy league schools but for every kid you see in the news who pulls a "Hillbilly Elegy", there's hundreds left behind). 

Last season he was pretty involved with Nancy investigating the crazy rats story - but for most of that he was dismissive of her (though some of it was understandably the difference between someone who absolutely needed the job and didn't want to get fired, and someone who just wanted it). But I don't really remember where he was in the climax of the story (which is telling, since I rewatched Season 3 just before watching Season 4). As a character, he's never been particularly interesting or engaging to me. This season even more so. But we'll see what the last half has to offer.

Edited June 5, 2022 by Clanstarling

[shrewd.buddha]

On 6/3/2022 at 9:17 PM, CailynA said:

Holy bleepity bleep bleep bleep bleeping bleep am I tired of watching Eleven cry.

The writers have regressed Eleven back to her season one persona.  It is as if she is a bully magnet because of her low self-confidence, sad-sack attitude and social awkwardness.  
And they are laying it on thick.  The bullying is over-the-top.
The writers have even made Eleven the odd duck amongst the other laboratory-raised children, even those younger than her.
It is a bit much...  (feels like lazy writing to me)

[Kel Varnsen]

48 minutes ago, Athena said:

They had things in common including their brothers being in trouble and journalism. Jonathan was presented as the more intellectual and emotionally available option in the triangle.

The weird thing about Jonathan being more intellectual, is that some how his only options for education are the fancy east coast school that Nancy is going to or the local community college with Argyle. Now the whole US post-secondary education system seems weird to me in general but that just seems extra weird.

[Taryn74]

3 hours ago, Athena said:

Jonathan does not have as much to offer anymore. I think he/the writers know it too because he's basically become a one dimensional pothead babysitter.

For real! I struggle to remember why I even ever liked him, LOL.

[Sarah 103]

3 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

The weird thing about Jonathan being more intellectual, is that some how his only options for education are the fancy east coast school that Nancy is going to or the local community college with Argyle. Now the whole US post-secondary education system seems weird to me in general but that just seems extra weird.

There is another category that the writers seem to be ignoring. There are state colleges/universities that are four year schools, which are more expensive than the local community college but less expensive than the private college/university Nancy will be going to. At the state college/university Jonathan would be able to earn the same type of degree as Nancy, but for a fraction of the cost. 

4 hours ago, Athena said:

Jonathan does not have as much to offer anymore. I think he/the writers know it too because he's basically become a one dimensional pothead babysitter.

I think this is part of my problem with this plotline. This season, his plotline should be more like a 1980s action/adventure movie, but instead its a spoof of a 1980s action/adventure movie filtered through a stoner comedy. 

[CatLady]

I was so excited to hear of Stranger Things season 4 being released.  But I must admit that the plot thus far has been very slow.  Plots need time to develop but, imo, earlier seasons did a better job of making the plot development compelling.  For example the Russian portion of the plot has been deadly slow and overly fatalistic.  The Joyce/Murray hi jinks have bordered on slapstick absurdity.  It is commendable that Joyce is willing to go to such lengths to find and save Hopper but I found the scenes pretty clumsy.

The Hawkins plot is also kind of weak to me.  Jason is the villain masquerading as the hero.  Maybe he did really love Chrissy but I get the feeling what he loved is his perfect life.  He's good looking, athletic, popular and dates the head cheerleader.  Now things he cannot control are messing with his life.  When things go wrong for people to whom things come so easily they either fall apart or become bullies to try and regain some control.  Jason is the bully.  In fact, bullies seem to be the overarching theme of season 4 right behind unfathomable, seemingly unstoppable evil. I felt as others have said that the town meeting came off as artificial.  Hopper would never have allowed a kid to take over this meeting and ratchet up vigilante sentiments among a room of adults.  The fact that Erica, a child, was the lone voice of reason in that room, came off as totally unbelievable.  Herd mentality is a real thing but there is always some dissent even in that type of situation.

El.  One of the things I found so depressing in the first couple of episodes was the complete regression of El.  Her powers were a large part of her life but in making friends with the "normal" teens she developed other skills.  She even forgot how to dress or present herself.  Maybe the state she was in was to underscore her sense of loss not only of her powers but of Hopper but it seemed too drastic to me.  The scene at the rola-rink with her attacking her bully I believe to be a window in to how El will overcome her jail, Brenner and the evil that threatens the world. Like others I am very disappointed that Dr.Owens is not the good guy the audience believed him to be. But I still have hope that he will help El more than harm her.

Warning - if you want to remain unspoiled do not click below.

Spoiler

Btw, the orderly who befriends 11 is connected to Vecna.  Others have suspected this but the role of Vecna is played by the same actor as the orderly I believe.

Wow I was shocked at Jonathan's appearance.  In contrast Steve looks wonderful.  No wonder Nancy was giving him the eye.  Joe just makes Steve so likeable.  Jonathan comes off like such a dud. But I do love his wacky pot buddy Argyle.  Mike seems off to me this season. Maybe he will wake up a bit later on.  He seemed so distant from El.  Guess her appearance and demeanor were a shock to him too LOL.  Love the Duffers casting Robert Englund as Victor Kreel.  Quite a turn around from his most famous role of being evil incarnate to a poor, unfortunate who is perceived as evil incarnate but is merely a victim.

Finally, I guess the plot seems so disjointed to me because we have four locations rather than just one-Hawkins.  When it was just one location all the moving parts seemed to be connected more.  Stranger Things has been so good in previous seasons that perhaps I  just expected too much.  But so far the story has yet to wow me.

[Redrum]

41 minutes ago, CatLady said:

El.  One of the things I found so depressing in the first couple of episodes was the complete regression of El.  Her powers were a large part of her life but in making friends with the "normal" teens she developed other skills. 

Having recently rewatched the first three seasons, El's powers were a huge reason why she was accepted into the friends circle to begin with.

[Taryn74]

2 hours ago, CatLady said:

Mike seems off to me this season. Maybe he will wake up a bit later on.  He seemed so distant from El.  Guess her appearance and demeanor were a shock to him too LOL.

That made me snort out loud. LOL. They definitely have regressed El this season, and not only is it annoying, it's almost disturbing. They regressed her to the point of seeming like a special needs kid, which makes the way Mike was making out with her all the time in S3 kind of.....icky.

[DoctorAtomic]

2 hours ago, CatLady said:

Maybe he did really love Chrissy but I get the feeling what he loved is his perfect life.  He's good looking, athletic, popular and dates the head cheerleader.  Now things he cannot control are messing with his life.

That's what I've been saying. He thinks he's 'entitled to the hot chick.' It's all about him. 

[janie jones]

22 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

There is another category that the writers seem to be ignoring. There are state colleges/universities that are four year schools, which are more expensive than the local community college but less expensive than the private college/university Nancy will be going to. At the state college/university Jonathan would be able to earn the same type of degree as Nancy, but for a fraction of the cost.

Out of state tuition, though. It seems like he needs to go to school in California. But who knows! Joyce can afford that house and to pay Hopper's ransom, so maybe there's tons of money for college.

[Sarah 103]

2 hours ago, janie jones said:

Out of state tuition, though. It seems like he needs to go to school in California. But who knows! Joyce can afford that house and to pay Hopper's ransom, so maybe there's tons of money for college.

It's possible I misunderstood what the original question from @Kel Varnsen was about. My point was that since Will and El are attending a public school in California, it is safe to assume they are California residents. If Jonathan wanted to earn a BA or a similar degree, he could do so at a state school without paying private college/university tution.

As @janie jones correctly pointed out, in that scenario, Jonathan would not be going to the same school as Nancy or even going to school near her. However, I think my original statement that there is something between the local community college and the expensive private college/university that Nancy plans to attend is still valid.

[janie jones]

@Sarah 103, I think the misunderstanding was mine. I thought you were suggesting that Jonathan go to a state school near the private school where Nancy is going.

You're right, his choices aren't either community college or Ivy League. But a significant number of people start at a CC to get their pre-reqs before transferring to a university. This may be Jonathan's plan.

[CeeBeeGee]

14 hours ago, CatLady said:

El.  One of the things I found so depressing in the first couple of episodes was the complete regression of El.  Her powers were a large part of her life but in making friends with the "normal" teens she developed other skills.  She even forgot how to dress or present herself.  Maybe the state she was in was to underscore her sense of loss not only of her powers but of Hopper but it seemed too drastic to me.

Think about her journey over the past several seasons. S1, she breaks out of the lab and forges the first natural, sincere human connections of her life (excepting her mother). She has purpose, she's admired. S2, she's isolated and probably scared but she at least has someone looking out for her--someone who genuinely cares for her, for her own sake--and she's able to escape in TV a bit. S3, she has a girlfriend who shows her the ropes--teaches her how to dress, the lingo ("I dump your ass!"), how to have fun at the mall. And she has a boyfriend. For the first time in her life she probably feels normal.

Then that's all taken away. I can't remember why Joyce decided to move the family but I thought it was a mistake even back then. Moving is terribly hard on kids. So it stands to reason she's regressed a bit. If she were still living in Hawkins, she would be surrounded by "the gang" and I doubt she would care if someone like Angela came after her, even if she didn't have her powers. But in California, there is only Will to side with her.

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 6/5/2022 at 12:19 PM, Kel Varnsen said:

The weird thing about Jonathan being more intellectual, is that some how his only options for education are the fancy east coast school that Nancy is going to or the local community college with Argyle. Now the whole US post-secondary education system seems weird to me in general but that just seems extra weird.

I don't take it that those are his only options, but he was reducing his options to those two because of the people he cares for.

Emerson because Nancy wants to go there, or the local community college because that will have him close to his messed-up mother and brother who need him to be nearby. 

If Jonathan and Nancy were really open with each other, they could find options that might work better for both of them individually and as a couple. Jonathan doesn't need to literally be at home 24-7 to watch over Joyce and Will. There are probably schools in California that would meet Nancy's needs/where she could get accepted and where Jonathan would be close enough to bop home if needed. 

Or Nancy (or therapy) could help Jonathan realize that he doesn't have to put anything in his life on hold to be there for his family.

[mledawn]

I think the changes in the characters match well with where they are in the story.

El has regressed because she has no powers, she is away from her friend group, and her dad has died. The things that supported her and helped her grow have been removed. 

Jonathan is in a new place with a new friend. His younger brother is safe, his mom has a job. He doesn’t need to be in protective big brother mode anymore and is now being a jackass teenager. I think it fits.

Will has also moved away from his friends and his best friend is growing away from him. Regardless of Will’s sexuality, his friends are changing and they’re all moving on. This is a trend that has been shown throughout the show. The other boys are branching out with interests and Will tries to keep things how they were when they were little. Of course this could be compounded by Will struggling with his sexuality or it could just be him struggling with PTSD and anxiety as a result of what he has been through. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

6 hours ago, mledawn said:

Will has also moved away from his friends and his best friend is growing away from him. Regardless of Will’s sexuality, his friends are changing and they’re all moving on. This is a trend that has been shown throughout the show. The other boys are branching out with interests and Will tries to keep things how they were when they were little. Of course this could be compounded by Will struggling with his sexuality or it could just be him struggling with PTSD and anxiety as a result of what he has been through. 

You know, I hadn't really thought of it before I saw your message, but Will (at least as far as we get shown) also has no friends outside of El. I mean, he has Flirty Chick playing footsie, but he is not shown to have reached out to play with the California equivalent of the Hellfire Club or any HS group. He isn't bullied or anything as far as we get shown. But he's just kind of...there. And although he's away from the dangers of Hawkins and the Upside Down, he isn't able to let them go and move on. 

Poor Will...

[janie jones]

17 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

Then that's all taken away. I can't remember why Joyce decided to move the family but I thought it was a mistake even back then. Moving is terribly hard on kids. So it stands to reason she's regressed a bit. If she were still living in Hawkins, she would be surrounded by "the gang" and I doubt she would care if someone like Angela came after her, even if she didn't have her powers. But in California, there is only Will to side with her.

If they had stayed in Hawkins, I want to know how they were going to explain El's existence. That Hopper had randomly adopted a kid? That she was his illegitimate child that he just found out about? What would justify Joyce taking her in? At least by moving locations, it makes their lie (that she's their stepsister/daughter) easier.

[peachmangosteen]

3 minutes ago, janie jones said:

If they had stayed in Hawkins, I want to know how they were going to explain El's existence. That Hopper had randomly adopted a kid? That she was his illegitimate child that he just found out about? What would justify Joyce taking her in? At least by moving locations, it makes their lie (that she's their stepsister/daughter) easier.

I thought that was a big part of why they relocated.

[janie jones]

That's true, but Joyce was already thinking about moving back in season 2.