S04.E02: Chapter Two: Vecna's Curse

[Josh371982]

On 5/28/2022 at 10:42 AM, Blue Plastic said:

Me, either. The way they are portraying her this season makes it seem like she really needs it. Like she can’t write very well and her “visual aid” project was a lot lower quality than mean Angela’s, not because she was slacking off but because that’s the educational level she is at.

The bullying scenes have been way OTT, as others have said. Not that bullying isn’t awful and damaging, but the whole school and even the DJ at the rink wouldn’t be participating. That’s just ridiculous.  Plus El seems pretty quiet and unobtrusive, probably not someone who would have caught Angela’s attention.

That doesn't mean anything. Chris in Carrie was just a horrid awful C word of a woman to Carrie for just existing. I literally said out loud" Has Angela seen Carrie? Cause If she gets any more awful she could end up like Chris". But hell Angela was probably cheering Chris on if she had seen it 

[Josh371982]

On 5/28/2022 at 10:13 PM, Racj82 said:

I admit to being surprised at how many people are casually cool with a teenager girl nearly getting her head split open by a roller skate. I learn something new everyday.

I wanted to see her comeuppance for sure. But, there was nothing satisfying about that to me. 

I personally cheered it cause Angela was a horrid awful disgusting little bitch that threw Hoppers death in her face and she reminded me of Chris from Carrie. I cheered when Carrie gave her what was coming to her. 

[Sarah 103]

1 hour ago, DearEvette said:

Right now on the show we know Robin is gay but only, irrc,  Steve knows for sure.  No one else knows.  And Will is possibly gay and at this point only he knows (or maybe he is struggling to admit it).

I would say this a good summary of the situation with Robin. Will is struggling to figure out his sexuality. I'm not sure he knows what he is yet, much less being able to come out. 

[krankydoodle]

I didn't think about it until someone in a podcast I listen to asked why Murray was trying to obscure where they were calling from to find out more about Hopper when the people who gave them that number obviously already knew where they were because they sent the package to Joyce's home. That also raises the question of how they got her address since Hopper wouldn't have known where Joyce moved. I rewatched the postal delivery scene and it didn't look like the package had been forwarded from the old address.

Edited May 31, 2022 by krankydoodle

[Accidental Martyr]

22 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

I remember going through a 1986 yearbook once and being surprised at how well Pretty in Pink depicted actual high school fashion, especially when it came to prom. (Save for Andie's dress which was intentionally made to stand out as different.) Miami Vice hit HARD in 1985-1986.

I wore a Miami Vice tuxedo to my prom in 1986. Just to show how much impact that show had, I grew up in a town of less than 1000 people in Alabama.

Edited June 1, 2022 by Accidental Martyr

[Scout Finch]

On 5/30/2022 at 5:47 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

i feel seen. :)

I feel old for immediately knowing that reference. Real old.

[neptunewaves]

I feel like I am taking crazy pills. Why is no one commenting on Mike's glaring homophobia (I very much doubt he'd see it that way, but it is what it is) wreaking havoc on his (ex?) friendship with Will? Those two didn't just "grow apart", Mike has been actively pushing him away since Will's natural sensitivity and proclivity to articulate his feelings like any sensible functional human being started clashing with the societal expectations of the era Mike is most likely been feeded. It started last season and no, it wasn't solely because of El - he somehow managed to avoid being a total shit to his other two friends, so what's different about Will, hm? He's so awkward and cautious around him it even catches Will by surprise, and of course it hurts. Regardless of how explicit the show wants to be, Noah is clearly portraying Will as someone questioning his sexuality (gay, bi, ace- he's queer, that much is clear.), and Mike's bizarre behaviour only makes sense within that context, so I really don't get why we are still getting this "up to the viewer interpretation" interviews? Whatever.

I don't necessarily think he likes Mike but, even if he did, him being "mopey" because his BEST FRIEND has barely attempted to stay in contact, and looks happier to see Jonathan than him would still be valid. Jesus. Mikes turns down the hug, barely notices the drawing (why would Will be carrying that around, Sherlock?), ignores him all day, then COMPLAIN about him being in a mood? Thank god they kept cutting back to Steve and Robin because I went hoarse from screaming at my TV.

People seem to have forgotten just how accustomed to bullying Will is. He sees it as a inevitability. Keep your head down, don't draw more attention to yourself... (and if he's actually questioning his sexuality, all the more reason to no start making waves) OF COURSE he won't (couldn't) stand up for El. Mike, on the other hand... that's your girlfriend right there?

I cheered out loud when El hit the blondie. Then I worried there might be consequences (not so easy to discredit a broken nose with one hundred witnesses!). I hope she doesn't get expelled (or worse). Maybe Joyce should save some of that money for a potential lawsuit? I am sure Hop would understand.

Vecna giving everyone their own The Ring death-from-fright face is killing me. I keep remembering Amber Tamblyn's blink-and-you-miss-it shoot from that movie, and I promise one time was enough! Poor Crissy, poor Fred, poor dear Eddie, my new very favorite character. So glad he gets to hang out with my fave group (now, if they could just... magically teleport Will over there? I am sure Mike won't notice.)

(Someone was asking... Fred ran over some guy and left him for dead.)

Edited June 1, 2022 by neptunewaves
Typos, so many goddamn typos!

[Aryanna]

14 hours ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

I have to agree that this seems to imply that you think there are more LGBTQ+ people now than there were in the 80s and that's just... not how it works.

I mean, putting aside the fact that Robin isn't really a part of the Will/Mike/Lucas/Dustin "friend group," it was also not uncommon for people in the 80s - or now - who generally felt a little alienated from the culture at large to become friends with each other.  So yes, gay people were actually friends with each other in the 80s, just like they are now.

It's one thing to say that it would be unlikely to have two out people in the 80s, well, that's worth debating. But the mere existence of more than one LGBTQ+ character? No. LGBTQ+ people have existed in American communities since there have been American communities, and that means in the 1980s.

I didn't mean to upset your own personal view of what the 80s were. It comes across to me as someone writing about the 80s through the lens of 2022. But you guys seem to know a lot more about the 80s than me so I'll defer.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

It's not my "personal view" so much as it is my personal experience. Several of us responding here were teens or older in the 80s. So yes, we can separate perceptions of the era from lived experience. I am not upset, I am just communicating what I know having lived through the years in question. 

[Dobian]

On 5/27/2022 at 6:42 PM, Demian said:

The costuming's off this season as well -- no one was wearing all that neon crap (not to mention that hateful full-on acid-washed denim jumpsuit) at the roller rink in 1986.  It was jeans and button-downs (or band t-shirts).  Especially the jeans -- you really wouldn't want to be wearing short-shorts if you wiped out.

Yeah, and the Wheelers' mom is still dressed like it's 1982 with the headband.  the "80s" as we like to remember them really came to an end in 1985.  It went from listening to Duran Duran and Flock of Seagulls to Tracy Chapman and Sinead O'Connor.  The late 80s to me was closer to the early 90s than the early 80s.

[Clanstarling]

45 minutes ago, Dobian said:

Yeah, and the Wheelers' mom is still dressed like it's 1982 with the headband.  the "80s" as we like to remember them really came to an end in 1985.  It went from listening to Duran Duran and Flock of Seagulls to Tracy Chapman and Sinead O'Connor.  The late 80s to me was closer to the early 90s than the early 80s.

I'm guessing the mom's didn't pick up on the crazes until after they were already phasing out with the younger people.

But I agree, no decade is the same way all through the decade. Styles and fashion in the first few years tend to be closer to the previous decade - and the reverse true for the end of it.

But I'm enjoying seeing clothes I either wore, or saw, during the decade. I was a working woman by then, so I didn't do the teen styles. I didn't wear headbands, or neon colors, or ripped sweatshirts (Flashdance). And I wasn't wearing Mom clothes either.

Edited June 1, 2022 by Clanstarling

[methodwriter85]

One very specific 1985-86 trend they picked up on though were the painter's caps. That was absolutely huge.

[Dobian]

On 5/27/2022 at 6:35 PM, BlackberryJam said:

The roller rink scenes were…less realistic than the Upside Down. How about you go into the circle instead of nag the DJ? Everyone’s reactions were wrong and I didn’t find El believable in the scene. And then when she came out and asked the girl to apologize? Silly. It was not a good scene.

Yes that scene was frustrating to watch.  If I was the boyfriend, I would have run straight to the guy with the video camera and smashed him over the head with it, then busted right through that circle.  It's also ridiculous that the boys all act like mean girls, following Angela around and assisting her in bullying other girls.  Really?

[Redrum]

Boyfriends would. I mean, they're on dates right?

Throwing a drink on someone in a very public way at the roller rink? That's a big no.... that shit got you banned if you even got past the guy checking for food and drinks in the rink.

[DoctorAtomic]

23 hours ago, CarpeFelis said:

But really during the first few years of the decade, fashion was still basically ‘70s. I recall commenters on The Americans complaining that they didn’t see any ‘80s fashion at the beginning of that series, but it started out set in 1981, so they were actually period correct.

When people say the 80s, it's really 83 - 88. No one is reminiscing about INXS as 80s music. There was a lot crammed into what we all call the 80s. I mean, you have hip hop, punk, new wave, and goth all going on at the same time. And Madonna. 

[Racj82]

22 hours ago, neptunewaves said:

I feel like I am taking crazy pills. Why is no one commenting on Mike's glaring homophobia (I very much doubt he'd see it that way, but it is what it is) wreaking havoc on his (ex?) friendship with Will? Those two didn't just "grow apart", Mike has been actively pushing him away since Will's natural sensitivity and proclivity to articulate his feelings like any sensible functional human being started clashing with the societal expectations of the era Mike is most likely been feeded. It started last season and no, it wasn't solely because of El - he somehow managed to avoid being a total shit to his other two friends, so what's different about Will, hm? He's so awkward and cautious around him it even catches Will by surprise, and of course it hurts. Regardless of how explicit the show wants to be, Noah is clearly portraying Will as someone questioning his sexuality (gay, bi, ace- he's queer, that much is clear.), and Mike's bizarre behaviour only makes sense within that context, so I really don't get why we are still getting this "up to the viewer interpretation" interviews? Whatever.

I don't necessarily think he likes Mike but, even if he did, him being "mopey" because his BEST FRIEND has barely attempted to stay in contact, and looks happier to see Jonathan than him would still be valid. Jesus. Mikes turns down the hug, barely notices the drawing (why would Will be carrying that around, Sherlock?), ignores him all day, then COMPLAIN about him being in a mood? Thank god they kept cutting back to Steve and Robin because I went hoarse from screaming at my TV.

People seem to have forgotten just how accustomed to bullying Will is. He sees it as a inevitability. Keep your head down, don't draw more attention to yourself... (and if he's actually questioning his sexuality, all the more reason to no start making waves) OF COURSE he won't (couldn't) stand up for El. Mike, on the other hand... that's your girlfriend right there?

I cheered out loud when El hit the blondie. Then I worried there might be consequences (not so easy to discredit a broken nose with one hundred witnesses!). I hope she doesn't get expelled (or worse). Maybe Joyce should save some of that money for a potential lawsuit? I am sure Hop would understand.

Vecna giving everyone their own The Ring death-from-fright face is killing me. I keep remembering Amber Tamblyn's blink-and-you-miss-it shoot from that movie, and I promise one time was enough! Poor Crissy, poor Fred, poor dear Eddie, my new very favorite character. So glad he gets to hang out with my fave group (now, if they could just... magically teleport Will over there? I am sure Mike won't notice.)

(Someone was asking... Fred ran over some guy and left him for dead.)

I'm not calling Mike homophobic because for one thing, I don't think the phrase is used correctly most of the time. Second, I can't call out Mike as homophobic to someone that has never come out. 

Mike has also always been terrible when it comes to expelling emotions, reading the room or picking up on cues. He's very self centered that way. 

If Mike had ever verbalized his discomfort with Will being who he is, I might have cause for concern. As it stands, Mike is always reacting to Will by just not understanding him period. They are both not the same people they were pre season 1 but neither one of them have really dealt with that. They've verbalized it but never fought to fix it. Also, you have El who has turned Mike into the stereotypical kid with his first girlfriend. It's all consuming for him.

Edited June 2, 2022 by Racj82

[DearEvette]

6 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

But I'm enjoying seeing clothes I either wore, or saw, during the decade. I was a working woman by then, so I didn't do the teen styles. I didn't wear headbands, or neon colors, or ripped sweatshirts (Flashdance). And I wasn't wearing Mom clothes either.

Erica's hair is dead on.  I am looking at a picture of myself from the mid 80 and I have Erica's exact hairstyle.  The under-flipped bang, the hair hanging down in the back like a reverse bang and a poofy-ponytail in the middle. 

Also, it is a picture of me holding up my sister's cabbage patch doll with a ransom note on it.  And I have an arm-full of those black rubber bracelets Madonna made popular.  I am also wearing a lot of purple because I was (am) a diehard Prince fan.

[EarlGreyTea]

Regardless of whether Will has feelings for Mike or not, the unraveling of their friendship is so painful to watch. I binged season 1 in anticipation, and Mike's entire raison d'etre is finding Will. They were so tight as kids, and it's painfully realistic that they would drift after after a move and one of them getting a girlfriend. I just kind of thought their shared trauma would make their friendship stronger. I dunno. Maybe we will see them move back toward each other. The core of the show for me, is the friendship between the core kid (now teen) actors.

Having said that, El has been the wedge in their friendship since at least season 1, when Mike's search for Will was sidelined by his sudden crush on El. I see that Will has been replaced by Eleven as Mike's person and that's got to be painful. Mike is my favorite character, but he really only seems to care about Eleven.

Edited June 2, 2022 by EarlGreyTea

[iwantcookies]

Jonathan has bigger eye bags than his mom. Is he 35? Nancy looks 35 too. Els hairstyle/bangs are so unflattering! 
 

Basically all kids look middle aged. 
 

Vecna is terrifying! 
 

El didn’t get arrested for the assault?

Joyce is going to hand over $40,000 to a stranger?

[brokenwing29]

On 5/28/2022 at 9:42 AM, Blue Plastic said:

Me, either. The way they are portraying her this season makes it seem like she really needs it. Like she can’t write very well and her “visual aid” project was a lot lower quality than mean Angela’s, not because she was slacking off but because that’s the educational level she is at.

The bullying scenes have been way OTT, as others have said. Not that bullying isn’t awful and damaging, but the whole school and even the DJ at the rink wouldn’t be participating. That’s just ridiculous.  Plus El seems pretty quiet and unobtrusive, probably not someone who would have caught Angela’s attention.

I was very quiet (had undiagnosed selective mutism) and that is the main reason I was bullied in middle school; kids zero in on someone who has some kind of weakness or has something different about them. El is a bit awkward and out of sync with other kids and I could buy that she would be an easy target. There were some aspects I found unrealistic, like on TV they always have the bullies making fun of the victim right in front of a teacher, and that only happened to me once. Also, the bullies in fiction are always some super popular, beautiful girl and that wasn't my experience either. I did feel El's pain and Angela did make me want to smack her, so the acting was good, even if the writing was not spot on.

[Kel Varnsen]

8 hours ago, Dobian said:

If I was the boyfriend, I would have run straight to the guy with the video camera and smashed him over the head with it, then busted right through that circle.  

Some people might be able to do that, but not being able to stand up to a bully is totally in character for Mike Wheeler.

[Dobian]

1 minute ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Some people might be able to do that, but not being able to stand up to a bully is totally in character for Mike Wheeler.

That's true, but my thinking was seeing someone he cared about being victimized would cause something to snap inside Mike and push him to act.  When you're the one being picked on, it can be very hard to find the courage to stand up for yourself.  But when it's not you but someone you love, that's a whole different dynamic.

[Anela]

On 5/27/2022 at 10:44 PM, Noneofyourbusiness said:

As a victim of bullying in the 90s, I completely believe all of that.

Same here. 

[methodwriter85]

1 hour ago, iwantcookies said:

Joyce is going to hand over $40,000 to a stranger?

This has to pretty much confirm that Joyce got a pretty good settlement from Hawkins Laboratory. She didn't even bat an eye about dropping roughly 105k in today's money. Her California house is also a lot nicer than what they had in Indiana.

[Chicago Redshirt]

45 minutes ago, methodwriter85 said:

This has to pretty much confirm that Joyce got a pretty good settlement from Hawkins Laboratory. She didn't even bat an eye about dropping roughly 105k in today's money. Her California house is also a lot nicer than what they had in Indiana.

I don't think it was her money. I can't remember which episode it was specified in, so just in case spoiler tag:

I believe she says she took it out a trust fund that Hopper had for El. Now how a small-town sheriff managed to accumulate that much on the side, and how Joyce could easily withdraw money from the trust seems a stretch.

[neptunewaves]

6 hours ago, Racj82 said:

I'm not calling Mike homophobic because for one thing, I don't think phrase is use correctly most of the time. Second, I can't call Mike as homophobic to someone that has never come out. 

Mike has also always been terrible when it has come to expelling emotions, reading the room or picking up on cues. He's very self centered that way. 

If Mike had ever verbalized his discomfort with Will being who he is, I might have cause for concern. As it stands, Mike is always reacting to Will by just not understanding him period. They are both not the same people they were pre season 1 but neither one of them have really dealt with that. They've verbalized but never fought to fix it. Also, you have El who has turned Mike into the stereotypical kid with his first girlfriend. It's all consuming for him.

But he did verbalize it, remember? "It's not my fault you don't like girls!". We can choose to read it as an unfortunate choice of words, but Mike is inmediately aware of the implications of what he said (and so is Will) and apologizes. Not reason to apologize if he meant it any other way.

Kids are supernaturally good at picking up who isn't 100% cis/straight, even when the object of their bullying hasn't quite come to terms with it/realized it themselves. Being closeted won't protect Will. Homophobia is also a bit more complex than a black and white issue (just as pretty much any other negative ism); I don't Mike will ever become the kind of nut who protests gay funerals or actively works to make queers people lives a living hell, but he IS visibly uncomfortable around Will in a way he isn't around any of the straight coded characters. Surely you know allies who rationally agree and support the queer community but are nonetheless put off by things like kink at Pride?

[Racj82]

42 minutes ago, neptunewaves said:

But he did verbalize it, remember? "It's not my fault you don't like girls!"

At that age, it doesn't mean what you are trying to make it out to mean. I also don't think Mike meant anything more than what's on the surface. But, you can read into it what you like. Unless Mike actually verbally expresses what others are putting onto his words, I'm not going down that road.

[CeeBeeGee]

2 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

This has to pretty much confirm that Joyce got a pretty good settlement from Hawkins Laboratory. She didn't even bat an eye about dropping roughly 105k in today's money. Her California house is also a lot nicer than what they had in Indiana.

I noticed that as well! She's telemarketing but she can afford that house?

[Dev F]

49 minutes ago, neptunewaves said:

But he did verbalize it, remember? "It's not my fault you don't like girls!". We can choose to read it as an unfortunate choice of words, but Mike is inmediately aware of the implications of what he said (and so is Will) and apologizes. Not reason to apologize if he meant it any other way.

Quite the contrary, I think: Mike apologizes because he didn't mean it that way, just blurted out a thoughtless insult in the heat of anger, but from Will's caught-out expression immediately realized that he'd said something more penetrating than he intended. Which is why he quickly backs down, and then drags Lucas across town in a storm to make sure Will doesn't think he was actually trying to be that hurtful.

Quote

I don't Mike will ever become the kind of nut who protests gay funerals or actively works to make queers people lives a living hell, but he IS visibly uncomfortable around Will in a way he isn't around any of the straight coded characters.

Again, I read it the exact opposite way: Mike is actually sweeter and gentler with Will than with any of his obviously hetero male friends. Mike, Lucas, and Dustin will be crude and bust each other's balls, but Mike and Will are more apt to sit quietly and talk about their fears or how much they mean to one another.

I always took that as the point of Mike's "It was the best thing I've ever done" speech to Will in season 2. That was him realizing that, for all his posturing that he's a normal kid who's best friends with all his friends, and maybe Lucas most of all because he lives next door, he's actually drawn to people who need him more earnestly, the way both Will and El do. He sees himself as the paladin, the knight in shining armor rescuing the princess or prince in the tower.

Which is why I'm puzzled by the talk about Mike's homophobia and the worry that he'll react badly if Will confesses feelings for him. (A confession that will, I very much expect, include a direct call-back to Mike's season 2 speech; I'd be willing to bet Will's painting is of five-year-old Will and Mike on the swings.) Regardless of whether Mike reciprocates Will's feelings, he's positively desperate to be loved desperately, and starved for the opportunity to show that he's a good and decent person who deserves that love. So I think he'd make a point of being understanding and supportive.

[janie jones]

2 hours ago, neptunewaves said:

But he did verbalize it, remember? "It's not my fault you don't like girls!". We can choose to read it as an unfortunate choice of words, but Mike is inmediately aware of the implications of what he said (and so is Will) and apologizes. Not reason to apologize if he meant it any other way.

When I was rewatching recently and Mike said that, I wasn't sure if it meant that Will doesn't like girls at all, or that he doesn't like girls yet. In season 3, he preferred to play D&D over being a fifth wheel. I mean, when I was their age, I wasn't interested in my friends' relationship drama, either. And I'm sorry but who of any sexual orientation wants to play footsie in class while their sister/close friend is standing there on the verge of tears? If anything, he just comes off like a late bloomer to me, although of course it could just seem like that because he can't date who he wants to date.

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 5/31/2022 at 3:53 PM, Aryanna said:

Maybe not for 2022. But for 1986 it feels inauthentic and inaccurate that one group of friends has two gay people. 

Do I have this straight:

Are you saying that in a series about how U.S. government experiments induced and fostered psychic powers in children that then get used to fight other-dimensional menaces that come from a place that is a warped version of our reality, you are finding it unrealistic that two gay people could be part of the same friend group?

Anyway, I felt I should point out that Will and Robin are not really friends and IIRC have never shared a scene together with just them and possibly not been in the same scene other than in the final episode of Season three where I assume both were present for the Mind Flayer fight. I freely admit that I may have forgotten about some brief interaction, but generally Robin started off being paired with Steve, and then was introduced to Dustin and finally Erica to enable them to sneak into the Russian base.

So what it really comes down to is whether it is authentic for there to be two closeted gay people at a small town's high school who might have a mutual friend or acquaintance in common.  Hopefully, most people will agree that the answer to that is yes. Or at least, yes to the extent it matters in a series about government conspiracies and interdimensional D&D-themed supervillains.

Edited June 2, 2022 by Chicago Redshirt

[cloeymoon]

On 5/31/2022 at 4:53 PM, Aryanna said:

Maybe not for 2022. But for 1986 it feels inauthentic and inaccurate that one group of friends has two gay people. 

Not true at all.  It happened. 

[Clanstarling]

12 hours ago, brokenwing29 said:

 Also, the bullies in fiction are always some super popular, beautiful girl and that wasn't my experience either.

I wasn't really bullied in school, just ignored (thankfully). But I do remember a bullying incident in the girl's locker room when I was a freshman in high school which involved the beautiful, popular girl. The scene is still vivid to me, 50 some years later.

A girl next to me was dressed, she was at that time a kind of unfortunate looking girl, gangly, braces, thick glasses. She was wearing a pretty dress. The mean/popular girl exclaimed what  a pretty dress it was. The girl just glowed - and then the mean girl said "too bad it doesn't look good on you." The girl was just crushed and it broke my heart to see it.

That moment changed my life - from then on if I wanted to compliment someone, I always said that they looked good, or the outfit looked good on them.

9 hours ago, Racj82 said:

At that age, it doesn't mean what you are trying to make it out to mean. I also don't think Mike meant anything more than what's on the surface. But, you can read into it what you like. Unless Mike actually verbally expresses what others are putting onto his words, I'm not going down that road.

He was in 8th grade, my experience is that kids (from the 80's and prior) are not that innocent. He was well aware of what it meant - though I don't think he meant to say it. He was just frustrated and blurted it out. He was immediately aware of how much it hurt Will and apologized. If he didn't think it meant that, he wouldn't have understood how much he hurt Will, which it seemed like he did.

7 hours ago, janie jones said:

When I was rewatching recently and Mike said that, I wasn't sure if it meant that Will doesn't like girls at all, or that he doesn't like girls yet.

I had a moment of that uncertainty when I first watched that scene - because that is a valid reading of it - but not (to me) along with the kind of reaction both Will and Mike had after he said it.

The Duffer brother do, however, seem to want to let us think what we want to think about Will's sexuality.

Edited June 2, 2022 by Clanstarling

[Aryanna]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Do I have this straight:

Are you saying that in a series about how U.S. government experiments induced and fostered psychic powers in children that then get used to fight other-dimensional menaces that come from a place that is a warped version of our reality, you are finding it unrealistic that two gay people could be part of the same friend group?

Anyway, I felt I should point out that Will and Robin are not really friends and IIRC have never shared a scene together with just them and possibly not been in the same scene other than in the final episode of Season three where I assume both were present for the Mind Flayer fight. I freely admit that I may have forgotten about some brief interaction, but generally Robin started off being paired with Steve, and then was introduced to Dustin and finally Erica to enable them to sneak into the Russian base.

So what it really comes down to is whether it is inauthentic for there to be two closeted gay people at a small town's high school who might have a mutual friend or acquaintance in common.  Hopefully, most people will agree that the answer to that is yes. Or at least, yes to the extent it matters in a series about government conspiracies and interdimensional D&D-themed supervillains.

Like I said earlier, you guys apparently know a lot more about the 80s than I do so I will defer to you. I have noticed there seems to be a lot gatekeeping going on in these threads that results in arguments. I don't wanna get into all that so I'll leave it to you guys.

As far as the storytelling aspect goes, an audience is willing to suspend disbelief of fantastical things in a story. But if the story is based in what is supposed to be the real world then if the things the audience member recognizes aren't very accurate that suspension is broken. Things such as slang or fashion being used in the wrong era. Or modern sensibilities in a period piece. An audience is willing to believe a story about witches and wizards taking place in England in the 1990s but the second a character pulls out an iPhone 12 that takes the audience out of the story.

It's the same idea of a show like Mad Men trying to be period accurate but doing it with a wink. That wink reminds you that you're watching fiction and you are no longer immersed in the story.

[Cranberry]

It is period accurate for there to be two closeted gay kids in the same large friend group, though.

[Racj82]

47 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

He was in 8th grade, my experience is that kids (from the 80's and prior) are not that innocent. He was well aware of what it meant - though I don't think he meant to say it. He was just frustrated and blurted it out. He was immediately aware of how much it hurt Will and apologized. If he didn't think it meant that, he wouldn't have understood how much he hurt Will, which it seemed like he did.

Your experience does not equal fact. Also, as I have pointed out many times, Will is not just some teenage kid. He lost 2 very important years of his maturity and development. He's also never felt totally free to express himself. Mike is also a very self centered boy that doesn't always think when he talks 

[Racj82]

1 minute ago, Cranberry said:

It is period accurate for there to be two closeted gay kids in the same large friend group, though.

It's also two different age groups. One younger one older. Two different perspectives. I'm one for calling out Netflix shoving LGBT characters into every show featuring teens. And I don't mean that to sound negative. It just feels kind of like checking off boxes at times. Not always organic. But, Stranger Things has been more nuanced and thoughtful about it. 

[Clanstarling]

19 minutes ago, Racj82 said:

Your experience does not equal fact. Also, as I have pointed out many times, Will is not just some teenage kid. He lost 2 very important years of his maturity and development. He's also never felt totally free to express himself. Mike is also a very self centered boy that doesn't always think when he talks 

Nope my experience as an 8th grader in the 60's, a school librarian in middle school the 80's and a parent of middle schoolers in the 90's and 00's does not equal fact. Of course not, as there is no one objective fact when it comes to the maturity level of 8th graders (for that matter, anybody).  Just experience...a lot of it.

Edited June 2, 2022 by Clanstarling

[Racj82]

The amount of mileage the sexuality of the characters have gotten when its such a small small part of the show is humorous to me. Especially when one of the characters sexuality is still not known yet. It's just...a lot. There is so much more going on here and many more interesting conversations to be had.

[Anela]

Some of the music reminds me of the "Scream" movies, when they have the camera panning the area from above, and when something happens and nobody is speaking, it's just a visual scene.

[Taryn74]

3 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

He was in 8th grade, my experience is that kids (from the 80's and prior) are not that innocent. He was well aware of what it meant - though I don't think he meant to say it. He was just frustrated and blurted it out. He was immediately aware of how much it hurt Will and apologized. If he didn't think it meant that, he wouldn't have understood how much he hurt Will, which it seemed like he did.

10 hours ago, janie jones said:

When I was rewatching recently and Mike said that, I wasn't sure if it meant that Will doesn't like girls at all, or that he doesn't like girls yet.

I had a moment of that uncertainty when I first watched that scene - because that is a valid reading of it - but not (to me) along with the kind of reaction both Will and Mike had after he said it.

Meanwhile, I took it as Mike was frustrated that Will wasn't placing importance on spending time with a girlfriend because Will wasn't into girls yet (from Mike's POV, whether Will was ever going to "be into girls" or not is irrelevant to this particular scene), and he didn't realize how it was going to sound (like he was calling Will gay in the same way that the bullies Joyce alluded to in S1 did) and that was why he reacted the way he did after Will was so obviously hurt by the "insult". He really didn't mean for it to come across that way.

So, there are many ways to interpret the scene, and for now the showrunners have left things ambiguous. *shrugs*

[eleanorofaquitaine]

3 hours ago, Aryanna said:

Like I said earlier, you guys apparently know a lot more about the 80s than I do so I will defer to you. I have noticed there seems to be a lot gatekeeping going on in these threads that results in arguments. I don't wanna get into all that so I'll leave it to you guys.

As far as the storytelling aspect goes, an audience is willing to suspend disbelief of fantastical things in a story. But if the story is based in what is supposed to be the real world then if the things the audience member recognizes aren't very accurate that suspension is broken. Things such as slang or fashion being used in the wrong era. Or modern sensibilities in a period piece. An audience is willing to believe a story about witches and wizards taking place in England in the 1990s but the second a character pulls out an iPhone 12 that takes the audience out of the story.

It's the same idea of a show like Mad Men trying to be period accurate but doing it with a wink. That wink reminds you that you're watching fiction and you are no longer immersed in the story.

I mean, I don't want to get too deeply into it but it is a little humorous to say there is gatekeeping, when you're original statement was on the gatekeeping side and the rest of us are saying, "well, no, this statement is not accurate based on our own experience."

Anyway, all of that being said, I agree with you that even in a fantasy show, you have to ground some of it in reality to make it work. ST is set in the 80s so for all that it is fantasy, if you are going to make the period parts of it feel authentic, it has to comport to the look, feel, and mores of the time.

It's just that in this particular case, what you are claiming is inauthentic for the time period is not actually inauthentic.

38 minutes ago, Taryn74 said:

Meanwhile, I took it as Mike was frustrated that Will wasn't placing importance on spending time with a girlfriend because Will wasn't into girls yet (from Mike's POV, whether Will was ever going to "be into girls" or not is irrelevant to this particular scene), and he didn't realize how it was going to sound (like he was calling Will gay in the same way that the bullies Joyce alluded to in S1 did) and that was why he reacted the way he did after Will was so obviously hurt by the "insult". He really didn't mean for it to come across that way.

So, there are many ways to interpret the scene, and for now the showrunners have left things ambiguous. *shrugs*

My feeling is that Mike suspects that Will is gay and he probably is uncomfortable with that, which is also authentic for the period. None of these characters are perfect and I would actually applaud them in acknowledging that homophobia existed and was pretty open during this period of recent history. Not everyone is going to be Steve.

[Clanstarling]

2 hours ago, Taryn74 said:

Meanwhile, I took it as Mike was frustrated that Will wasn't placing importance on spending time with a girlfriend because Will wasn't into girls yet (from Mike's POV, whether Will was ever going to "be into girls" or not is irrelevant to this particular scene), and he didn't realize how it was going to sound (like he was calling Will gay in the same way that the bullies Joyce alluded to in S1 did) and that was why he reacted the way he did after Will was so obviously hurt by the "insult". He really didn't mean for it to come across that way.

So, there are many ways to interpret the scene, and for now the showrunners have left things ambiguous. *shrugs*

Valid. We read scenes differently based on our different experiences, which is for me the interesting part of the forums, and the showrunners are deliberately being ambiguous - which makes it kind of a Rorschach test for everyone.

[Sarah 103]

17 hours ago, janie jones said:

When I was rewatching recently and Mike said that, I wasn't sure if it meant that Will doesn't like girls at all, or that he doesn't like girls yet.

When I first saw the episode, I interpreted it as Will is developing later than his friends and isn't interested in girls yet. 

[janie jones]

10 hours ago, Aryanna said:

Like I said earlier, you guys apparently know a lot more about the 80s than I do so I will defer to you.

I don't think it's about living through the 80s. Although the number of people who are out is increasing, there is no evidence to suggest that a greater proportion of people is LGBTQ+ now than in the past. Gay people have always existed; they often just pretended they weren't or were in denial. And no one on this show is out. Everyone at Hawkins High School probably assumes they've never met a gay person in their life, but we the viewers know they're wrong.

[Captain Carrot]

On 5/28/2022 at 9:51 PM, Redrum said:

She broke a kid's arm with her powers over teasing and made a kid pee his pants in public over the same.

She didn't break his arm for teasing. She broke it because the kid threatened to cut Dustin's teeth out with a knife unless Mike jumped off a cliff. (Maybe he thought Mike would live or wouldn't actually jump but he still deserved to get a broken arm).

Angela, on the other hand deserved a punch or slap, but not a roller skate to the face. Which I think was the point. El was trained as a weapon and hasn't really had many experiences since escaping that would help her understand that there's a middle ground between doing nothing and going for the throat. I really hope that the show doesn't drop that issue.

(Stuff like this is why I don't always like highly serialized shows. I think that episodes that don't move the overall plot but have a lot of character development are left out as 'filler' and this negatively affects the show).

[Kate47]

Okay, it's official, the Vecna murders will never not be hard to watch. Maybe even more viscerally nasty than last season's goo.

[Clanstarling]

15 hours ago, Kate47 said:

Okay, it's official, the Vecna murders will never not be hard to watch. Maybe even more viscerally nasty than last season's goo.

I agree. Goo's just nasty stuff. But bones going in the wrong direction is more cringe worthy (at least to me)

[janie jones]

Bones going in the wrong direction, and whatever's going on with the eyeballs. (I don't know what's going on with the eyeballs because I look away and I don't want to know, so no one needs to tell me.)

[Clanstarling]

59 minutes ago, janie jones said:

Bones going in the wrong direction, and whatever's going on with the eyeballs. (I don't know what's going on with the eyeballs because I look away and I don't want to know, so no one needs to tell me.)

Eyeballs are the worst, I agree. I must have blocked them from my mind, or just looked at the bones, because eyeball stuff freaks me out.

Edited June 10, 2022 by Clanstarling