S07.E16: The Beginning

[OtterMommy]

Quote

Robert finally comes to terms with his memory loss. Grace and Frankie confront the possibility of immediate death--or aging for a few more years.

 

[Keywestclubkid]

That felt like a rushed and unfinished ending for a LOT of these characters...I just ...

[greekmom]

I did binge the whole thing yesterday.  The last episode did give me the feels but I agree it was rushed.

Some takeaways:

• I did FF a bit through the kids and Sol & Robert scenes as I found them boring.  Especially the Mallory/Brianna at the office.
• I almost thought that Coyote gf was going to turn out to be a relative (since he was adopted) and not that he is (was) married.
• Jane Fonda continues to show that you can be absolutely gorgeous at 70+. 
• Grace's slip in Mexico when talking to Raimez's wife would have been more of a Frankie thing, not a Grace thing.
• They really under utilized Dolly.  I wish she was Elsbeth instead of the receptionist angel.
• Speaking of Elsbeth if she's that good, wouldn't she have warned Frankie about Sol?
• I know how Brianna isn't in the whole kids thing (you don't have to be) but you still can appreciate other ppl's kids and understand that your fiancé does have an some obligation to his child.  She was acting like Barry's child is an unwanted and annoying puppy.

[AuntieMame]

Well, I binged all of the episodes today and have mixed feelings. 

I did and do love that the show unapologetically shows Grace and Frankie to be best friends in the deepest possible way. Not just in death but in life. Their relationship makes both of them more than the sum of their parts. 

The Brianna character remains a caricature to beat women with despite the glimmers of humanity Brianna shows in her relationship with Mallory. 

Brianna is depicted as a monster as a woman who doesn’t want children. The depiction of Barry having to father children elsewhere and Brianna not even tolerant of conversation about said child is a stick to beat women who might not want children. The breakup with Barry is the final twist of the knife. Barry is depicted as better off without a mean, vulgar woman like Brianna who has doubts about the marriage and motherhood track.
 

She must be a monster! Shock and horror. And what happens to monstrous women? Nobody loves them. Not even their families like them much. They end up alone with their monstrousness exposed. I’ve never seen a character so obviously designed to push women towards traditional female life paths. 

I loved that Frankie tried to give Bud permission and that his wife finally did. And more tried to make the permission Bud’s to own. 

I was happy to see Dolly even for such a short time. I’m always a fan of magical realism and loved the strength of Grace and Frankie’s friendship but wished that the writers had figured out how to address some of the real issues of aging and death. They snuck up on them, but couldn’t seem to look them square in the face. And who wants to? These are tough, but that would have elevated Grace and Frankie to art. Instead we got the milquetoast of Grace and Frankie going on in permanent state of late middle age or early old age. Physical decline won’t really cause any problems and death is just a bureaucratic error. 

Final thought: In contrast to Brianna as the gorgon cautionary tale, Mallory’s children sure don’t seem to take much time out of her day. Comedy doesn’t and shouldn’t mean unrealistic. In fact the most brilliant comedy makes us laugh at the tragedy and farce of our existence. 

At the end of the day, despite the brilliance of so many people involved, Grace and Frankie devolved into a sitcom.  Once the original situation of two elderly women left because their husbands were lovers was resolved, Grace and Frankie as a show never found all of its footing thematically. 

Edited May 1, 2022 by AuntieMame

[PWHCHCH]

A few thoughts

•    ⁠Bud was shitty that Coyote was gifted Frankie’s estate (for what that’s worth) when he was gifted the law firm by Sol which has way more worth. I’d shut up and be happy if I were him.
•    ⁠a lot of green screen in this and the previous episode . Clearly Joan Margaret was not on set with everyone else and was edited in later. Also Robert and Sol at the Hotel was painfully obvious with the wide shot in the lobby and entire elevator sequence.
•    ⁠super obvious stunt doubles taking the falls on the beach

[TakomaSnark]

14 hours ago, AuntieMame said:

Well, I binged all of the episodes today and have mixed feelings. 

I did and do love that the show unapologetically shows Grace and Frankie to be best friends in the deepest possible way. Not just in death but in life. Their relationship makes both of them more than the sum of their parts. 

The Brianna character remains a caricature to beat women with despite the glimmers of humanity Brianna shows in her relationship with Mallory. 

Brianna is depicted as a monster as a woman who doesn’t want children. The depiction of Barry having to father children elsewhere and Brianna not even tolerant of conversation about said child is a stick to beat women who might not want children. The breakup with Barry is the final twist of the knife. Barry is depicted as better off without a mean, vulgar woman like Brianna who has doubts about the marriage and motherhood track.
 

She must be a monster! Shock and horror. And what happens to monstrous women? Nobody loves them. Not even their families like them much. They end up alone with their monstrousness exposed. I’ve never seen a character so obviously designed to push women towards traditional female life paths. 
 

I really wanted to like Brianna, we don't see enough of 'child free by choice' women. 

But she never, ever should have gotten back with Barry. It was clear they were a huge mismatch. It's been a while since I revisited that season but I remember thinking at the time that if the genders were reversed, there'd be a bit more upset over such an emotionally abusive pairing. To the end, I thought Brianna's treatment of Barry was awful. And I say that as someone who is like her! But know what you want and who meets that need. They may have been good friends or coworkers but they were clearly on different life tracks. I couldn't respect Brianna for continually expecting him to be like her, when we knew he wasn't like her - and she should have known it too.

I guess the finale was fine but as others have said, rushed. 

The last episodes seem to have landed with a whimper. I don't know if that's because it overstayed its welcome or the general Netflix problems are overshadowing one of their iconic shows ending.

[AuntieMame]

8 minutes ago, TakomaSnark said:

I really wanted to like Brianna, we don't see enough of 'child free by choice' women. 

…To the end, I thought Brianna's treatment of Barry was awful. And I say that as someone who is like her! But know what you want and who meets that need. They may have been good friends or coworkers but they were clearly on different life tracks. I couldn't respect Brianna for continually expecting him to be like her, when we knew he wasn't like her - and she should have known it too.

This is why the character of Brianna is subversive misogyny and propaganda for being the “right” kind of woman. By making Brianna nasty, vulgar, emotionally abusive and just plain mean they blacken the very idea of a child free by choice woman. Or an ambitious woman. The mismatch with Barry was part of this too. It was to make Brianna and by extension a straight woman making non traditional choices a monster. She was a caricature but a successful one. 

In the ecosystem of this show, it’s okay to have a job or a career as long as your main job of child rearing and marriage get your first and fullest attention. I’m not even certain it was conscious on the part of the writers its just woven into the fabric of our social beliefs. 

[TakomaSnark]

11 minutes ago, AuntieMame said:

This is why the character of Brianna is subversive misogyny and propaganda for being the “right” kind of woman. By making Brianna nasty, vulgar, emotionally abusive and just plain mean they blacken the very idea of a child free by choice woman. Or an ambitious woman. The mismatch with Barry was part of this too. It was to make Brianna and by extension a straight woman making non traditional choices a monster. She was a caricature but a successful one. 

In the ecosystem of this show, it’s okay to have a job or a career as long as your main job of child rearing and marriage get your first and fullest attention. I’m not even certain it was conscious on the part of the writers its just woven into the fabric of our social beliefs. 

I really hope that June Diane Raphael's pitched Brianna spin-off goes nowhere. I'd hate to see not just more of this, but an entire show centered around it.

[Harvey]

I am not clear on what happened to Bud - he quit being a lawyer, that much is clear. But why is he in a school? Did he become a teacher? It was not explained. And his daughter is too young to be in school yet.

[Suzn]

Briana is such an unpleasant character.  Are we to assume that a woman who doesn't want children is mean, nasty, self-centered and cares about no one?  As if a woman can't chose to not have children and be a warm, loving woman who might even like children, just choses not to have her own.  Not that everyone has to enjoy being around children.

Honestly, Mallory, is not much better.  Apparently her children are feral and fending for themselves for all the attention they must get from her.

[retired watcher]

On 4/30/2022 at 11:03 AM, greekmom said:

I did binge the whole thing yesterday.  The last episode did give me the feels but I agree it was rushed.

Some takeaways:

 

• Jane Fonda continues to show that you can be absolutely gorgeous at 70+. 

Jane is 85. Amazing.

[whydoiwatch]

Loved Dolly's appearance. I thought there were some poignant moments.  Grace and Frankie saying goodbye in heaven before it was known Frankie would be returning and Grace helping Frankie paint made me cry. For all the ups and downs, their friendship was beautiful. I will miss the show.

[monakane]

Am I the only one who wished they had stayed in heaven and partied with Dolly?  I loved the whole theme about female friendship that drove the show.  You don't see a lot of that on tv.

[Bastet]

Other than Brianna and Barry breaking up, and that being positioned as Barry was always forcing himself into a relationship that wasn't suited for him, I've loved this season, so I'm glad that broken-up Brianna finally got a win in this one, a determination to start her own business and ask her sister to do it with her.  It doesn't make up for what a shitty overall story they gave her, punishing her for not wanting to be a wife and mother, but it helped me set aside the bitterness and focus on the whole reason I'm here, Grace and Frankie.

I didn't like them regressing to another fight where they accuse each other of betrayal, but I got over it for that moment when Grace is completely, physically altered by hearing Frankie say she can't paint anymore.

I cracked up when they died and Grace said, "See, this is why I don't hug - nothing good ever comes of it."  And, while I'd have been fine with Grace deciding to stay dead in order to stay with Frankie, I like it a lot better this way, with them both feeling that even though they can't do everything they used to do, they still have good time left and they want it.  Frankie telling Grace she wished they'd known each other as little girls and Grace saying she'd have been a completely different person had that happened was beautiful.

And of course Dolly would be the angel.  Back in the episode where they went to see a psychic, I thought that was going to be Dolly's character.  Then I saw reference somewhere to a "heavenly" appearance in the final episode, so I had a hint of what was coming.  I loved her saying she hasn't had a promotion in 250 years, although I was hoping for use of some specific phrase from 9 to 5 that would work for this scene but also be a treat for those like me who know the film by heart.

When they cut to the shot of the two of them painting together, I was done for.  I watched the rest through happy tears.  It ended the way it was meant to, with those two walking arm-in-arm on the beach, asking what's next.

I'm sad it's over, but this was a great send-off.

[meligator]

Loved seeing the them back with Dolly.  They should have stayed in heaven.

[txhorns79]

I enjoyed the Grace and Frankie storyline during the episode.  Lily Tomlin and Jane Fonda are treasures, and they work so well with one another.   As to the rest, meh.  Coyote, Bud, Brianna and Mallory were mostly background noise the entire season and it felt to me more like the writers weren't entirely sure what to do with them.  Even the rather serious storyline given to Robert seemed to fall mostly flat.  I never really felt the stakes for either he or Sol, and thinking back, did Grace and Frankie ever find out about Robert's memory issues?  It says something that I honestly do not remember anymore.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

I enjoyed the Grace and Frankie storyline during the episode.  Lily Tomlin and Jane Fonda are treasures, and they work so well with one another.   As to the rest, meh.  Coyote, Bud, Brianna and Mallory were mostly background noise the entire season and it felt to me more like the writers weren't entirely sure what to do with them.  Even the rather serious storyline given to Robert seemed to fall mostly flat.  I never really felt the stakes for either he or Sol, and thinking back, did Grace and Frankie ever find out about Robert's memory issues?  It says something that I honestly do not remember anymore.

I mostly agree with this👆, except I do think they nailed Robert’s loss of memory, in spite of skimping on integrating his memory loss into a few scenes with Grace. 

[Bastet]

4 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

did Grace and Frankie ever find out about Robert's memory issues? 

No, and I thought not showing us Grace's reaction was a mistake of omission.  Everyone else nailed theirs so beautifully, and I wanted to see Jane do the same given the long, complex relationship between Grace and Robert.  Maybe they felt they'd done it too many times already - first Sol realizing there was a problem, then Brianna and Mallory realizing he was right, and finally Robert realizing - and didn't want to do another one with Grace and Frankie, but I'd have enjoyed another reminder of how Grace will always care about and be connected to Robert in a special way (beyond the kids), despite it all.  I always love those scenes, like after his heart attack and when she's the one he needs when his mother dies.

[Madison59]

Probably my least favorite season as so much felt rushed and made no sense.  The entire trip to Mexico for a bone density drug??  Grace and Nick relationship was disjointed, although she pretending she was incapacitated was laugh out loud funny.  Considering all the plot lines coming to an end from Say Grace, to the law firm, Brianna's relationship, etc. was too much.  The show did convey, however, the dilemmas we face when aging.  However, as one over 60, Grace and Frankie displayed vibrance the older we become.  The last season erased all that and turned into a "This is Us' moment. 

[Bastet]

I love that the series premiere was titled "The End" and the series finale titled "The Beginning".  It started with the end of their lives as they'd known them and the death of the future they'd planned, and ended with the beginning of their final phase -- they've worked through and past the betrayal and settled into good relationships with their ex-husbands, they've dated other people and learned from those relationships but are done with that, the "kids" are managing their own lives, and they can enjoy life, together, in a whole new way now.  "Maybe, just maybe, the best is yet to come." 

I also love that Grace's final words in the first episode are "Now what?" and are "What now?" in the last one.  The first one comes from a place of bewildered upheaval and fear of the unknown, and the last one is so different, a "The world's our oyster, so, what do we want to take on next?" attitude.

What a wonderful journey it's been.  I watched some favorite scenes last night - the "We're going to make things for people like us because we're tired of being ignored by people like you" scene twice - and starting tonight I'm going to do a full series re-watch.

[Sakura12]

While this did feel rushed and most of the stores were kind of eh. I enjoyed Frankie and Grace's ending. Not so much anyone else since I don't really care about them. 

Grace and Frankie were good for each other and it was great for them to realize they are a package deal. 

Finally the Dolly appearance, playing an Angel working 9 to eternity I'm guessing. 

[iMonrey]

I wasn't spoiled about Dolly's appearance, but as soon as they went through the door and saw someone sitting with their back to them, I knew it was going to be her. I'm glad they found a way to work her into the show, finally.

I have to say, of the three of them - Jane, Dolly and Lily - Lily looks the best. I'm sure she's had some procedures too, but she looks the most normal out of all of them. Jane and Dolly are just stretched and botoxed beyond recognition. Jane in particular seems to have had more work done just prior to this season, her face is practically immobile, and she almost looks like she's had a stroke. I was distracted the whole season long.

Pretty good ending overall. This was never the strongest show but it had its moments.

Quote

 I really hope that June Diane Raphael's pitched Brianna spin-off goes nowhere.

I'd watch it.

[Suzn]

5 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I have to say, of the three of them - Jane, Dolly and Lily - Lily looks the best. I'm sure she's had some procedures too, but she looks the most normal out of all of them. Jane and Dolly are just stretched and botoxed beyond recognition. Jane in particular seems to have had more work done just prior to this season, her face is practically immobile, and she almost looks like she's had a stroke. I was distracted the whole season long.

I fervently wish that women would realize that faces stuffed with fillers, lifted tight and botoxed to immobility does not make them look young.  Their faces no longer move normally and they look less and less like themselves.  It's sad and as @IMONEY said, it is distracting to watch them.  I'm sure there is some minor work done that is subtle and improves looks, but unfortunately we see ruined face after ruined face.

[Jillybean]

I was disappointed overall in this last batch of episodes. I recently did a full series re-watch, and it was just so amazing and hilarious. This season it was almost as though they'd run out of ideas. Even my 78-year-old mother just emailed me and said "I’m watching Grace and Frankie too.  It’s not as funny so far in my opinion."

The complete and total absence of Faith + Mallory's 4 kids was jarring. I get that they may not be able to have children on-set, but if they can fake Barry's baby, they can fake Faith. With Mallory's, at least make a passing reference as to where they are all day and during important family functions. They've handled Mallory's children oddly. One season there were a couple of episodes with just two kids -- no mention of the other two.

I have no idea why Peter and Adam were at Coyote's wedding. It really just seemed like they wanted to throw in a couple of extra gays who had no business being there. Bizarre. I loathe Peter, and wish they didn't seem to think his presence was needed in nearly every episode. Also in that category: Joan-Margaret. She isn't funny and her presence diluted the G&F relationship IMO.

Robert's memory issues/ Alzheimer's onset was nothing short of depressing, even if it's realistic. Not sure why that storyline was ushered in at the 11th hour. 

I can't believe they broke up Brianna and Barry at the very end of the series. Why did Bud and Coyote get happy endings while Brianna and Mallory did not? It reminds me of when Robert and Sol were settled and happy in their new home and Grace & Frankie were stuck in assisted living. This show celebrated female friendship in a delightful manner, but otherwise came across as borderline misogynistic at times.

Edited May 10, 2022 by Jillybean

[Bastet]

2 hours ago, Jillybean said:

I can't believe they broke up Brianna and Barry at the very end of the series. Why did Bud and Coyote get happy endings while Brianna and Mallory did not?

I've stated my anger over the dissolution and retconning of the Brianna/Barry relationship for the disgusting, sexist message it sends about women who don't want to get married and have kids - it is the only significant blight on a terrific overall show for me - but I don't think it's true Brianna and Mallory didn't get happy endings (or "endings", as one of the big points of this series is that the only actual ending is death; even the total destruction of everything you knew can be the transition point towards something even better).

They both found themselves out of jobs, yeah, but jobs they weren't suited for -- Brianna can't have a boss and Mallory isn't ready to be a boss.  Instead, Brianna is going to start her own company, like Grace did, and Mallory is going to be part of it from the ground up.  They're going to have their ongoing sister squabbles and continue dealing with how their childhood power imbalance informs their adult relationship, but they understand each other more than they ever have and are going to build something together.  That's pretty damn happy.

That Brianna will be doing it without Barry as her romantic partner is a major misstep, and, as I said, the only thing I'm left resentful about, but I have to acknowledge she'll be just fine.  And that Mallory doesn't have a romantic partner is a big ball of who cares, since she hadn't yet met the next person she wanted in that role.  Maybe she will in some of the decades she has ahead of her.  Maybe she won't.  Same with Brianna.

If one or both don't, that wouldn't mean a lack of a happy ending -- if Brianna and Mallory wind up being to each other what Sol and Robert and Grace and Frankie are, that's every bit as good and they'll be damn lucky.  One of the greatest things about this show was it acknowledging yeah, life's easier with a partner, but showing a partner doesn't need to be a spouse or similar. 

You need someone who gets you and loves you as you are even as they're driven batshit crazy by aspects of you.  Someone who'll drop everything, day or night, if you say "I need you" over something big but also someone who's a given as the person who'll do the mundane things like meet you there and pick you up when you have to leave your car at the auto shop.  They're hard to find.  And invaluable.  Life's not impossible without them, but a hell of a lot easier with them.  And they don't have to be related to you, or live with you.  A spouse, a sibling, a roommate, a friend, any or all of the above can be That Person.

2 hours ago, Jillybean said:

It reminds me of when Robert and Sol were settled and happy in their new home and Grace & Frankie were stuck in assisted living.

I had mixed emotions about that contrast at the time, but in re-watch I was fully honed in on just one of those emotions: appreciation for the realism of how the women were perceived as compared to the men.  The kids reacted to the moms' age-related difficulties differently than the dads', because of gender stereotypes and because of the stereotypes around being married versus being in a different but just as committed yet not as understood and respected form of partnership.  Grace and Frankie kept getting referred to as living "alone" even though there were two of them; there was no similar "If X happens to him, what are you going to do?" quizzing of the married dudes.

And after initially getting manipulated by that very commitment to each other - Frankie's kids convincing Grace that Frankie would be best off in a retirement community but would never go without Grace and Grace's kids doing the same to Frankie - they wised up, told the kids (and the world) to fuck off, got the initial help they needed from the ex-husbands by reminding them their time with the kids doing this to them would come, and then reclaimed their home and lives on their own.

I'm up to the beginning of season six in my re-watch, and find this series even more wonderful the second time through -- things I found realistic, yet realistically infuriating, the first time I now view in light of the positive place in which we leave everyone and just see the inevitable society- and self-induced roadblocks as things I'm excited to see them overcome.

And I like contrasting now with that period, that while Grace and Frankie were having a particularly rough sequence of events which led the kids to manipulate them into assisted living they didn't need or want Robert and Sol's biggest problem was that an attractive younger man wanted the go ahead and they weren't sure if they were "that kind of gay", now the women are full steam ahead while the men are going to be dealing with Robert's dementia.

There were missteps, certainly, but rapidly re-watching the whole thing has left me so appreciative of how this show addressed aging, sexism*, sexism within ageism and ageism within sexism, and what family and friendship mean in all their many forms. 

*Again, with the glaring exception of Brianna's romantic life, because OH MY GODS I am never going to let go how ridiculous that was.  I just still adore the show in spite of it.

Edited May 10, 2022 by Bastet

[Jillybean]

While I don't think that everyone needs a partner to be happy, I'm also not convinced that Brianna and Mallory's vague notion of starting a TBD business together constitutes a happy ending for either character. Granted, Mallory has always seemed pretty happy since her divorce (especially since she doesn't seem to spend much time with her kids!) but I think she deserved a fulfilling relationship. Her arc as CEO never made any sense. I wish they had figured out a more rounded picture of her identity.

Brianna has shown almost no character growth and is almost as much of a caricature as Karen Walker (Will & Grace). She is so damaged and self-centered, and her brief breakdown in Mallory's arms is one of maybe two vulnerable moments we've seen from her -- the other being following Barry to Baltimore (?). I don't mind that Brianna was childfree by choice (so am I) but the line she drew in the sand with Barry was totally unreasonable IMO and he was right to bail after kowtowing to her many demands for years. So, it doesn't bother me that she didn't get a happy ending. Frankly, I don't know what Barry saw in her.

[possibilities]

Mallory never expressed any interest in having a romantic partner. That's another kind of women that never gets represented, so I was happy not to have to be dragged into another romance on a show that had so many going on already. If they had shown her longing for one but not finding one, that would have been depressing. As it is, I take it as representation of a type of woman who never gets shown on TV-- someone who doesn't derive her identity from her partner, and someone who is career-focused, and also compassionate and kind.

[Jillybean]

If the message of the show is that straight women don't need men to be happy, I'm good with it. That's the only way I can handwave all the male leads being partnered and all the female leads being single in the end.

[possibilities]

7 minutes ago, Jillybean said:

If the message of the show is that straight women don't need men to be happy, I'm good with it. That's the only way I can handwave all the male leads being partnered and all the female leads being single in the end.

I do agree it's a bit of a pattern, and that's a bit of a... question.

[Red Fields]

On 5/8/2022 at 4:53 PM, Suzn said:

I fervently wish that women would realize that faces stuffed with fillers, lifted tight and botoxed to immobility does not make them look young.  Their faces no longer move normally and they look less and less like themselves.  It's sad and as @IMONEY said, it is distracting to watch them.  I'm sure there is some minor work done that is subtle and improves looks, but unfortunately we see ruined face after ruined face.

It makes them look scary. I can’t imagine what they look like in person. The actress who plays Joan Margaret still looks beautiful even though she doesn’t look “young.”

[AuntieMame]

On 5/8/2022 at 2:53 PM, Suzn said:

I fervently wish that women would realize that faces stuffed with fillers, lifted tight and botoxed to immobility does not make them look young.  Their faces no longer move normally and they look less and less like themselves.  It's sad and as @IMONEY said, it is distracting to watch them.  I'm sure there is some minor work done that is subtle and improves looks, but unfortunately we see ruined face after ruined face.

And it makes it more difficult to know and appreciate a genuine face. I like Jane Fonda but I have real issues with all of her talk against eating disorders and weight obsession and the use of cosmetic surgeries while she blithely continues to do more of both than even the average actress. It just screams rules for thee but not for me hypocrisy. And just one more way that this show ultimately reinforced ageism and misogyny while pretending to do the opposite. 

[Sailorgirl26]

On 5/15/2022 at 11:24 AM, AuntieMame said:

And it makes it more difficult to know and appreciate a genuine face. I like Jane Fonda but I have real issues with all of her talk against eating disorders and weight obsession and the use of cosmetic surgeries while she blithely continues to do more of both than even the average actress. It just screams rules for thee but not for me hypocrisy. And just one more way that this show ultimately reinforced ageism and misogyny while pretending to do the opposite. 

Read her autobiography.  Having already done so, I can tell you your assumption about her attitude toward her eating disorder and plastic surgery are incorrect. She did the mental health work and is healthier about both of those things than she has ever been. She is by no means putting out a negative do as I say, not as I do. She struggled with it for a really long time and it’s unfair to criticize her now for not having the mental strength or knowledge to stand up against it in the past.  Seriously, Read her autobiography. She is even more of a badass than most of us know. 

[MrsJumbo3]

On 5/1/2022 at 1:11 PM, AuntieMame said:

In the ecosystem of this show, it’s okay to have a job or a career as long as your main job of child rearing and marriage get your first and fullest attention. I’m not even certain it was conscious on the part of the writers its just woven into the fabric of our social beliefs. 

I’ll disagree: Grace had a career & kids, & wasn't a warm or attentive mother. Mallory took an unpaid intern job & we never saw her interact or talk about her 4 children again.

I enjoyed the childless Brianna character much more than the bland boring Mallory. I always saw Brianna as a mini- Grace. They both seemed more career oriented & disliked being around children.

I disliked Barry as a partner for Brianna & wish they had never had her persue him after they initially broke up. I wish instead she realized he was never going to be right for her & she did the dumping OR they hadn’t introduced the sperm donor story at all & instead portrayed them as a happy childless couple. 

[shapeshifter]

On 5/1/2022 at 2:11 PM, AuntieMame said:

In the ecosystem of this show, it’s okay to have a job or a career as long as your main job of child rearing and marriage get your first and fullest attention. I’m not even certain it was conscious on the part of the writers its just woven into the fabric of our social beliefs. 

In contrast, I think there was a very conscious effort to illustrate the effects of strictly clinging to such beliefs through the stories of these people who became adults when there was great societal (and often legal) pressure to adhere to certain norms around sexuality and childbearing.
But your take on it, @AuntieMame, is probably closer to what was intended.
I'm that annoying watcher who nobody likes to be in the same room with because I'm always interrupting with commentary about production, intention, etc.

4 hours ago, MrsJumbo3 said:

I’ll disagree: Grace had a career & kids, & wasn't a warm or attentive mother. Mallory took an unpaid intern job & we never saw her interact or talk about her 4 children again.

I can't stop wondering if Mallory's kids would have been more of the story if not for the pandemic.

4 hours ago, MrsJumbo3 said:

I enjoyed the childless Brianna character much more than the bland boring Mallory. I always saw Brianna as a mini- Grace. They both seemed more career oriented & disliked being around children.

Yes, I see Brianna as Grace would have been, had she been born a generation or 2 later.

4 hours ago, MrsJumbo3 said:

I disliked Barry as a partner for Brianna & wish they had never had her persue him after they initially broke up. I wish instead she realized he was never going to be right for her & she did the dumping OR they hadn’t introduced the sperm donor story at all & instead portrayed them as a happy childless couple. 

I see it as them letting the Barry situation drag out to its insane ending (hiding his sperm baby from her in their house) to illustrate how so many marriages do drag out way beyond their expiration dates--and not just those marriages between people who have not accepted their own sexual preferences.

ETA: Brianna is still vibrant and beautiful and (hopefully) wiser, and can meet someone else, if being paired up with someone is what she wants. 

And: Going through the agony of breaking up from a long term relationship should give more people pause before embarking on another coupling, because eventually death comes to everyone, and usually not in pairs, and the pain of loss could be even greater.

The show barely dodged the loss of a spouse through death several times, but through Brianna's sorrow at the end of her relationship, we catch a glimpse.

Edited June 5, 2022 by shapeshifter

[Bastet]

10 hours ago, MrsJumbo3 said:

They both seemed more career oriented & disliked being around children.

I love the scene of them bonding over the feeling of dread they get when Mallory calls, afraid she's going to ask them to babysit her umpteen children.

8 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I can't stop wondering if Mallory's kids would have been more of the story if not for the pandemic.

There are so many of them, and kids slow everything down, so I don't think we'd have seen a whole lot of them, but, yes, just like we didn't see Faith a few times when she logically would have been with Bud and Allison, I'm sure the pandemic is the reason we didn't see Mallory's brood at all. 

I guess with the big bucks she was making as the world's most underqualified CEO it's believable she wouldn't struggle with childcare options, but this is the inevitable problem when you need to temporarily sideline a character due to the actor's pregnancy and decide to do that by impregnating the character with twins and putting her on bed rest -- once that's over, you now have four little kids to either work in or keep unrealistically absent.

10 hours ago, MrsJumbo3 said:

I disliked Barry as a partner for Brianna & wish they had never had her persue him after they initially broke up. I wish instead she realized he was never going to be right for her & she did the dumping OR they hadn’t introduced the sperm donor story at all & instead portrayed them as a happy childless couple. 

Ah, yes, the other stupid plot devised to deal with an actor's pregnancy -- Brianna hiding under a blanket while stalking Barry in Baltimore.  I hated that.  It was a great ending when Frankie told her if it wasn't right for her, it wasn't right -- it validated there was nothing wrong with Brianna for not wanting a husband and kids, it simply meant Barry was the wrong person for her, despite loving each other, because he did.

But once they got to the point where she turned down the job because he didn't want to move to San Francisco, and they committed to being permanently engaged, I wanted them to last.  His last-minute ditching of her suggests men can't ever truly be happy with a woman who doesn't want marriage and family, and will eventually want the traditional and leave her.

At least Brianna is perfectly content on her own, or casually dating, so if in the future she happens to fall in love with a guy who has the same view on marriage and kids, that will be a nice bonus in her life like Barry was, and if she doesn't, she won't feel like she's missing something (no matter how much our sexist society tries to tell her she is).

With so many shows utterly convinced the only way to send off a female character is pairing her up romantically with a man, and possibly knocking her up, it was nice that for all four of the main women their happy "ending"* wasn't centered on romance.  But it would have been nice if Brianna was still partnered with Barry in a happy, stable relationship as she set off to build a business with Mallory and carry on Grace's legacy, to avoid the message that can't all co-exist.

*Which isn't an ending; as I said, I love that the show hammered home the only actual ending is death.  One of the great things about the series is that the four kids are all living their true selves far younger than their parents got to, but the four seniors are also living their best lives right now, because it's never too late for a new beginning if that's what you need.

The showrunner and actors have all talked about their pleasant surprise that the show has a lot of younger viewers in addition to of course being popular with older women, but it makes sense -- it's honest, it's heartwarming, it's funny, and it's inspirational.  I didn't love every storyline along the way and I didn't love everything about the finale, but I deeply love this show and will revisit it frequently.  I hope there's a special edition box set released with special features now that it's over, so I've held off on getting individual season DVDs.

Edited June 5, 2022 by Bastet

[buckboard]

I thought the multiple episodes spent on Frankie's belief that she was going to die on a certain date -- thanks to the fortuneteller's prediction -- was ridiculous. I wish the writers had come up with a better storyline to show how much the women loved and needed each other.

I was never a big fan of Sol and Robert when their storylines didn't intersect with Grace and Frankie, but, in contrast with Frankie's long anticipated death, I found Robert's memory loss very moving.

[kaygeeret]

I felt really conflicted this entire last season.

On the one hand, I felt that the Robert and Sol story got profoundly real and extraordinarily loving.  This is a very real thing many of us are/will face and it is surely one of life's most difficult events.  So good job show!  And terrific acting by the guys.

Briann/Mallory, yeah whatever.  Brianna has always been one note, but her treatment of Barry and one potential part time kid was stupid.  Blah.

Grace/Frankie. Not a ton of growth as Frankie's fortuneteller's death thing was looney even by her usually hilarious standards.  Grace has shown growth for sure, but the last marriage and the 'silly' prison/money plot lines were kinda, well silly.

I agree that Jane Fonda was showing some pretty serious movement instability and she must have had some 'work' during the downtime because I thought her eyeballs were going to pop out of her head when anyone talked to her.

She is blessed with strong bones in her face and some extremely skilled plastic surgery, but the last bit should not have been done.

I mostly loved the series, but this last season felt weird to me.

PS I do think that the bond Grace and Frankie have established with one another and even with Joan Margaret is every bit as valid and strong as Robert and Sol's.  That is a lovely lesson as well.  Strong friendships have tremendous value.

[shapeshifter]

12 hours ago, kaygeeret said:

Briann/Mallory, yeah whatever.  Brianna has always been one note, but her treatment of Barry and one potential part time kid was stupid.  Blah.

The Brianna-Barry bit seemed to miss an opportunity for Brianna to demonstrate growth resulting from a realization that just because you get your own way doesn't mean those around you are going to like it, and that has consequences.
Or something like that.
Or did they show Brianna growing and I missed it? 
Or maybe we are supposed to understand Brianna's character growth would manifest in her future?

Edited June 23, 2022 by shapeshifter

[LaylaGirl]

On 6/22/2022 at 5:50 PM, kaygeeret said:

I agree that Jane Fonda was showing some pretty serious movement instability and she must have had some 'work' during the downtime because I thought her eyeballs were going to pop out of her head when anyone talked to her.

She is blessed with strong bones in her face and some extremely skilled plastic surgery, but the last bit should not have been done.

Prior to the second half of the last season, I always thought Jane Fonda looked great. She clearly had work done, but she still looked like herself. She now has a very unnatural look that is quite distracting. 

[shapeshifter]

29 minutes ago, LaylaGirl said:

Prior to the second half of the last season, I always thought Jane Fonda looked great. She clearly had work done, but she still looked like herself. She now has a very unnatural look that is quite distracting. 

My hope was that the "work" would relax over time, albeit sadly, not in time for this show.

[J-Man]

I guess it was too much to hope for a Dabney Coleman (still with us at 90!) cameo.

[LisaM]

Finally finished the entire series. I didn't love this last season - I thought it was too slapstick and frankly, was fixated on Grace's hair and face which both looked decidedly different than earlier seasons. I had zero interest in any of the children and only fleeting interest in Sol and Robert. However, I loved the Grace and Frankie relationship - pure love. 

[chediavolo]

On 5/1/2022 at 4:03 PM, retired watcher said:

Jane is 85. Amazing.

I think Jane looks like a plastic surgeon’s Frankenstein monster. Who the **** looks like that at 83 IRL? And Dolly Parton! Scary! How sad that so many women turn themselves into scary messes rather than tone it down with a few procedures or good forbid age naturally but healthier. 

Edited November 5, 2022 by chediavolo

[MsJamieDornan]

I just binged the whole season. It's taken me a long time realize just what a great actress Jane Fonda is.

[Desperado]

Finished the last season today. I loved Grace and Frankie’s friendship and how they supported each other. I know they couldn’t be in all the scenes but I skipped most of the other characters’ scenes, because they were often too ridiculous for me to enjoy.

I have enjoyed the work of Sam Waterston and Martin Sheen in many things, but they just never clicked with me as a couple, and the Sol character was beyond annoying.

The less said about all their kids, the better.

I loved Dolly Parton, but some of her scenes looked as if they were shot in a different room because her eyes were not looking where they should.

As Frankie said, my life is small and meaningless so I can’t relate, but Jane and Dolly having achieved so damn much, still feeling they have to look as Barbie like as ever, is incredibly sad to me.

Not sure how much is due to having to do maintenance surgical work every few years, for it not to look horrific after a while. Something I don’t think plastic surgeons discuss much.

[AuntieMame]

On 11/5/2022 at 5:20 AM, chediavolo said:

I think Jane looks like a plastic surgeon’s Frankenstein monster. Who the **** looks like that at 83 IRL? And Dolly Parton! Scary! How sad that so many women turn themselves into scary messes rather than tone it down with a few procedures or good forbid age naturally but healthier. 

It really is disconcerting isn’t it? That she is in her eighties and looks at least twenty years younger? I won’t go as far as Frankenstein’s monster but the fact that even death is preferable in society’s view than a woman existing when older. All of these women are talented high achievers who have even actualized as people at least some. But none of that even counts. It’s heartbreaking for all women. Nothing we do with our intelligence or talents or compassion even counts. Nothing matters except our beauty while young. 

[shapeshifter]

On 1/18/2023 at 10:36 AM, Desperado said:

Not sure how much is due to having to do maintenance surgical work every few years, for it not to look horrific after a while. Something I don’t think plastic surgeons discuss much.

It’s definitely better than it used to be. 
I suppose if I had that much disposable income, I’d consider it.