S06.E03: Rock and Hard Place

[JudyObscure]

19 minutes ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

I did not get Kim's anger expressed to the D.A. lady as she was outlining the understanding that office had of the situation.  Pointing out some thing that may have helped Saul is one thing.  Practically spitting those out?  To a D.A. who was at least appearing to bend to give them a break?  Terrible choice by RS and/or TPTB.  in the end, all the suspicions were affirmed by Kim's resentful acknowledgements anyway.  She knew instantly that they had the goods.  Just what was to be gained by being so adversarial?

Really.  I felt the same way when she was almost snarling as she told Saul that he had to either become a lawyer for the cartel or a be a rat.  Something very ugly and angry is coming out of Kim.

The cartel or rat is Saul's "rock and a hard place" position, Nacho always was caught between staying with the cartel and his father, Mike is caught between the cartel and his granddaughter.

Nacho was my Jesse for BCS.  I loved both of them and wanted them both to escape the nightmares they were caught in.  I didn't blame either of them for their initial bad choices because they were so young in the beginning and they were basically kind people.

So I thought the show would spare me watching Nacho die the way they saved Jesse for me.  I was hoping Nacho would get the first Vacuum Store ticket to Alaska.

[peeayebee]

8 hours ago, Jodithgrace said:

Kim is so smart, feeding the Suzanne incriminating evidence against her own client, making Suzanne feel obligated to return the favor. It paid off when Suzanne gave her the heads up about the Salamanca business. It’s always good policy to do unsolicited favors for people, making them much more likely to help you out in the future. At least if you’re in the sleazy law business. 

I guess I need to rewatch that scene because I didn't pick up that Suzanne was trying to help Kim.

 

6 hours ago, dwmarch said:

Okay so I already know Vince Gilligan won't let us down but we're not exactly at the "did Lalo send you? It wasn't me, it was Ignacio!" point yet. Ignacio is dead and as far as Jimmy knows, so is Lalo. I can't really see how we get from here to there but I guess I should just listen to Mike from the trailers when he gives that warning about things unfolding differently than anticipated.

Yeah, there's plenty of time left for Jimmy to learn that Lalo isn't dead.

[BC4ME]

It's such a huge testament to the brilliance of this show that despite *everything* pointing to Nacho's imminent demise (with the exception of his mention by Saul in BB) that people en masse believed that he was going to get out of it alive. Truly masterful storytelling.

At least he died believing Lalo was dead.

Edited April 26, 2022 by BC4ME

[Adiba]

I did wonder why Nacho didn’t at least take out Bolsa or anyone else before taking his own life? He knew Mike was there to take him out anyway if he was rushed by the twins?

[PeterPirate]

1 hour ago, Pike Ludwell said:

Great episode, but I don't like how they added nothing to the previous show's surprise ending of the car emerging after Saul and Kim left the Kellermans. Seems like a sort of cliffhanger that has usually been dealt with the next show.  

As I watched the episode I thought they were spending way too long on Nacho's travails.  In previous seasons some scenes were gratuitously too long, imo.  (Mike breaking into the Kettleman home is at the top of my list.)  But in hindsight I see they were giving Michael Mando and Nacho a wonderful and truly well-deserved way to exit the show.  

Were I a smarter person, I would have realized during the episode that it was building up to the final scene.   In some ways I am fortunate not to be that smart, as I got to experience watching it "unspoiled".    

 

1 hour ago, Pike Ludwell said:

Also, scenes like the cards on the back of that painting, and the Huell scene, where we have no idea what's it's all about and have to just wait to see -- Seems like usually better exposition in the same show. And, it seems like they have been having those "wait and see" scenes more often this season. I don't like that technique when it seems overdone.

Yeah.  I gloss over things like the cards on the painting, then I let other people tell me what they mean.  

Edited April 26, 2022 by PeterPirate

[Pike Ludwell]

What was that large tank container that Nacho climbed into and hid in at the beginning? And what was that pool of black glop he submerged in to hide?

Edited April 26, 2022 by Pike Ludwell

[BC4ME]

2 minutes ago, Pike Ludwell said:

What was that large pipe-like container that Nacho climbed into and hid in at the beginning? And what was that pool of black glop he submerged in to hide?

Oil I'm guessing by how hard it was to get off.

[suzeecat]

5 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Great episode and a perfect send-off for Michael Mando.  Hope he gets a shot at an Emmy this go around.

In an EW interview with Michael Mando, he describes the episode as "operatic, symbolic and beautiful". 

Agree.

[SunnyBeBe]

I have a question about the time line now and Mike on BB. I’m not sure I can post it here. I’ve posted on the BB discussion/spoiler thread.  

Edited April 26, 2022 by SunnyBeBe

[SailorGirl]

2 hours ago, Adiba said:

I did wonder why Nacho didn’t at least take out Bolsa or anyone else before taking his own life? He knew Mike was there to take him out anyway if he was rushed by the twins?

I couldn't help but think Mike had the ability to fully solve a WHOLE lot of problems all at once. Think about it: he had the twins, Hector, Bolsa, and Gus and his two associates all in one open area, with clean site lines to every single one of them. He had a long range sniper weapon and could have taken them all out and there's nothing any of them could have done. Their handguns were useless against a sniper. Admittedly it would have negated the entire BB series, but the implications of his power in that moment are staggering. Would we have even had a Heisenberg? No way Tuco wasn't going to end up back in jail sooner rather than later. Walt and Jesse might have gotten as far as having Tuco as their distributor for a bit, but there never would have been a superlab, worldwide distribution, white nationalists keeping Jesse hostage, etc. Would Saul Goodman be just another slimy strip mall lawyer? Its a rabbit hole when you really start thinking about what the elimination of all those characters at once would mean in the BB universe. 

And any doubts about whether Gus has full trust in Mike because he sometimes questions him have been resolved. There's no way Gus didn't think at some point that Mike could take them all out just as easily as he could take out just Nacho. 

That was a Renaissance master portrait of the Mike character, in the span of what, five minutes?

Edited April 26, 2022 by SailorGirl
Its Tuco, not Tito!

[PeterPirate]

1 hour ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

Was the lone flower due to the nutrients a dead Nacho provided?  

Wow.  I think you are right.  There was almost no vegetation on the ground when the final scene took place, and there is a good amount in the opening.  

The wrist ties are also on screen for a couple seconds.  

[Blakeston]

It seems to me that the obvious next step for the Salamancas would be to kill Nacho's father.

We know that the Salamancas are aware of Nacho's father and his business. Things initially went south for Nacho because the Salamancas wanted to use his father's business as a front for their nefarious activities.

The Salamancas have every reason to despise Nacho now. They know he was a rat, they know he participated in a scheme to kill Lalo, and they know he caused Hector's stroke. Hector was so furious that he insisted on putting extra bullets in Nacho's body.

Nacho may be dead, but his death was a huge middle finger to the Salamanca family. It's hard for me to believe that they wouldn't seek vengeance against his family.

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

Really.  I felt the same way when she was almost snarling as she told Saul that he had to either become a lawyer for the cartel or a be a rat.  Something very ugly and angry is coming out of Kim.

The cartel or rat is Saul's "rock and a hard place" position, Nacho always was caught between staying with the cartel and his father, Mike is caught between the cartel and his granddaughter.

Nacho was my Jesse for BCS.  I loved both of them and wanted them both to escape the nightmares they were caught in.  I didn't blame either of them for their initial bad choices because they were so young in the beginning and they were basically kind people.

So I thought the show would spare me watching Nacho die the way they saved Jesse for me.  I was hoping Nacho would get the first Vacuum Store ticket to Alaska.

I see Nacho as a hugely more noble character than Jesse. Yes, they both screwed up terribly as young people, but of course Jesse did so from a far more privileged place. More importantly, when ultimately faced with the consequences of those choices, Nacho willingly sacrificed himself, to save those he loved. Jesse? He was out of the game, soon to be off to wherever vacuum repair took him, which meant that those he loved would be safe. Then, he realizes that Walt poisoned (ultimately non-fatally) young Brock, and consumed by the rage and damaged pride that causes so much carnage in the world created by these writers, Jesse decides to re-insert himself into The Game. That ultimately leads to Andrea being murdered, as Jesse looks on in horror. 

Nacho is seething with anger and hatred, too, but he doesn't lose sight of the fact that the priority is to keep those he loves from further harm.

[Bannon]

16 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

It seems to me that the obvious next step for the Salamancas would be to kill Nacho's father.

We know that the Salamancas are aware of Nacho's father and his business. Things initially went south for Nacho because the Salamancas wanted to use his father's business as a front for their nefarious activities.

The Salamancas have every reason to despise Nacho now. They know he was a rat, they know he participated in a scheme to kill Lalo, and they know he caused Hector's stroke. Hector was so furious that he insisted on putting extra bullets in Nacho's body.

Nacho may be dead, but his death was a huge middle finger to the Salamanca family. It's hard for me to believe that they wouldn't seek vengeance against his family.

If Gus values Mike's expertise, and believes Mike's willingness to use that expertise to honor his promise to Nacho, Gus might enlist Eladio to forbid the Salamancas from making a move on Nacho's father. Eladio sees Gus as a much better earner than the Salamancas, so he might honor such a request from Gus, and the Salamancas are too dependent on Eladio to openly defy him. This might he especially true if Lalo gets clipped, as Gus still has a good reason to effect.

Then again, Lalo might make that move on Nacho's dad, or Mike mught forsee such a move being attempted, so Mike might effect Lalo's demise, on either side of the border, with approval by Gus. Eladio will still need to be enlisted to keep the cousins in check, and good ol' calm and stable Tuco will be added back into the mix.

I wonder if Mike ever wonders if there might have been a better way to financially secure his grandaughter's future. Then again, it's pretty obvious that Mike is marinating in self-loathing, so he may have a death wish that he is subconsciously acting on.

[sistermagpie]

9 hours ago, Bannon said:

It's always amazed me that a story that has frequently had me laughing out loud is likely the saddest show I've ever watched. No exception tonight, although not much in the way of laughs in this episode. Mando was exceptional, of course.

In such an episode like this, it's easy to overlook an early scene, like the one between Huell and  Saul, in which lies to himself about why he and Kim are engaged in this potentially career ending fraud. Jimmy and Kim can't admit to themselves that all their machinations are being borne of grief and anger.

 

So true. And that's exactly how they would be in terms of denial too. 

2 hours ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

 

I did not get Kim's anger expressed to the D.A. lady as she was outlining the understanding that office had of the situation.  Pointing out some thing that may have helped Saul is one thing.  Practically spitting those out?  To a D.A. who was at least appearing to bend to give them a break?  Turrible choice by RS and/or TPTB.  in the end, all the suspicions were affirmed by Kim's resentful acknowledgements anyway.  She knew instantly that they had the goods.  Just what was to be gained by being so adversarial?

I assumed she was angry that Jimmy had been caught doing something and the DA was trying to use it to her advantage in a way that put Jimmy in a bad spot. And the DA would know that.

 

38 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

Wow.  I think you are right.  There was almost no vegetation on the ground when the final scene took place, and there is a good amount in the opening.  

The wrist ties are also on screen for a couple seconds.  

I figured it was just at some unknown time in the future--a new season, hence the rain. Those things can lie there forever.

22 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I see Nacho as a hugely more noble character than Jesse. Yes, they both screwed up terribly as young people, but of course Jesse did so from a far more privileged place. More importantly, when ultimately faced with the consequences of those choices, Nacho willingly sacrificed himself, to save those he loved. Jesse? He was out of the game, soon to be off to wherever vacuum repair took him, which meant that those he loved would be safe. Then, he realizes that Walt poisoned (ultimately non-fatally) young Brock, and consumed by the rage and damaged pride that causes so much carnage in the world created by these writers, Jesse decides to re-insert himself into The Game. That ultimately leads to Andrea being murdered, as Jesse looks on in horror. 

Nacho is seething with anger and hatred, too, but he doesn't lose sight of the fact that the priority is to keep those he loves from further harm.

Yes--this is something that often bugs me about Jesse. I like him, but it seems like he gets turned into an innocent victim in ways he just isn't. It's also Jesse who sets in motion the whole Walt vs. Gus fight and people often tended to rewrite it as Walt just deciding he was too good to work for Gus. Jesse never lost his relative sense of entitlement and it showed in his actions and the amount of responsibility for his actions he seemed to often be given by viewers.

[Simon Boccanegra]

For anyone who didn't recognize it and cares, Howard's driving music (which we kept getting during the valet scam) was the final movement of Beethoven's Piano Concerto No. 5 ("Emperor"). A pet peeve of mine is that when characters in TV shows and movies listen to classical music, while it's usually a great piece, it's always so "obvious." But I didn't mind here. It fits Howard, on top of the world. And of course, the cutting of that sequence was brilliant. 

Yeah, I'm looking for anything else to talk about right now. A tip of the cap to Michael Mando for his wonderful performances over five seasons plus. And at least Nacho went out with courage to rival that of another guy facing certain execution in the desert, in the other series.

Edited April 26, 2022 by Simon Boccanegra

[Bannon]

8 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

So true. And that's exactly how they would be in terms of denial too. 

I assumed she was angry that Jimmy had been caught doing something and the DA was trying to use it to her advantage in a way that put Jimmy in a bad spot. And the DA would know that.

 

I figured it was just at some unknown time in the future--a new season, hence the rain. Those things can lie there forever.

Yes--this is something that often bugs me about Jesse. I like him, but it seems like he gets turned into an innocent victim in ways he just isn't. It's also Jesse who sets in motion the whole Walt vs. Gus fight and people often tended to rewrite it as Walt just deciding he was too good to work for Gus. Jesse never lost his relative sense of entitlement and it showed in his actions and the amount of responsibility for his actions he seemed to often be given by viewers.

I remember watching S5E11 of BB, and when Jesse decided to, waiting for the van,  walk away from vacuum repair, I thought "Oh, you selfish little bastard, you're going to put people, who you claim to love, in grave danger". These writers never fail to deliver consequences on The Bad Choice Highway.

1 minute ago, Simon Boccanegra said:

For anyone who didn't recognize it and cares, Howard's driving music (which we kept getting during the valet scam) was the final movement of Beethoven's Piano Concerto No. 5 ("Emperor"). A pet peeve of mine is that when characters in TV shows and movies listen to classical music, it's always something so "obvious," but I didn't mind here. It fits Howard. And of course, the cutting of that sequence was brilliant. 

Yeah, I'm looking for anything else to talk about right now. A tip of the cap to Michael Mando for his wonderful performances over five seasons plus. And at least Nacho went out with courage to rival that of another guy facing certain execution in the desert, in the other series.

Yep, Hank and Nacho, the two significantly flawed, yet in the end, hugely noble characters in this universe.

[Eulipian 5k]

11 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

I’m still not sure what Mike was supposed to do with his sniper rifle. Didn’t he say something like “go on…do it”? What was he wanting Nacho to do? 

It's a very unpredictable meeting. Maybe Mike was assurance/protection for Gus, in case the Salamancas didn't buy Nacho's "confession"/mis-direction. Nice trigger discipline Mike!

It feels empty now that Nacho is gone. Apparently no one tells Saul about Nacho's demise.

[peeayebee]

The interview with Mando that was linked to here was very good and opened my eyes to stuff I should have figured out myself, namely the Christ symbolism. Nacho submerges himself in oil and then washes himself clean -- baptism -- he eats a Last Supper, he sacrifices himself to save others, namely his father. The flowers in the desert symbolize his rebirth. Very cool.

[sistermagpie]

8 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I remember watching S5E11 of BB, and when Jesse decided to, waiting for the van,  walk away from vacuum repair, I thought "Oh, you selfish little bastard, you're going to put people, who you claim to love, in grave danger". These writers never fail to deliver consequences on The Bad Choice Highway.

9 minutes ago, Simon Boccanegra said:

And of course he assumed he could just go back to vacuum repair when he was finished what he wanted.

[Starchild]

11 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

I’m still not sure what Mike was supposed to do with his sniper rifle. Didn’t he say something like “go on…do it”? What was he wanting Nacho to do? 

I'm pretty sure that as soon as Mike saw a gun in Nacho's hand, he wanted Nacho to take himself out on his own terms. They both knew Nacho wasn't getting out alive, and this was the "best" death nacho could have hoped for. Mike was hoping Nacho would have the courage to do it and wouldn't falter.

 

2 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Something very ugly and angry is coming out of Kim.

I'm starting to think that it's Kim that gives Jimmy that final push into full-fledged villainy. Once more betrayed by the person he loves most in the world. How tragic is that? While she sat smoking on that couch, staring with those soulless eyes, I literally thought "OMG Kim is a sociopath."

 

2 hours ago, Adiba said:

I did wonder why Nacho didn’t at least take out Bolsa or anyone else before taking his own life? He knew Mike was there to take him out anyway if he was rushed by the twins?

This was about protecting his father after his death. Injury or death to anyone else at that meeting would jeopardize that.

 

1 hour ago, Blakeston said:

It seems to me that the obvious next step for the Salamancas would be to kill Nacho's father.

We know that the Salamancas are aware of Nacho's father and his business. Things initially went south for Nacho because the Salamancas wanted to use his father's business as a front for their nefarious activities.

The Salamancas have every reason to despise Nacho now. They know he was a rat, they know he participated in a scheme to kill Lalo, and they know he caused Hector's stroke. Hector was so furious that he insisted on putting extra bullets in Nacho's body.

Nacho may be dead, but his death was a huge middle finger to the Salamanca family. It's hard for me to believe that they wouldn't seek vengeance against his family.

They'll have to get through Mike first.

I do wonder if Mike will make an anonymous call to Mr. Varga to inform him his son has gone into witness protection and can never contact him again. That would be a small mercy.

[Gobi]

15 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

It's a very unpredictable meeting. Maybe Mike was assurance/protection for Gus, in case the Salamancas didn't buy Nacho's "confession"/mis-direction. Nice trigger discipline Mike!

It feels empty now that Nacho is gone. Apparently no one tells Saul about Nacho's demise.

Saul saying “It was Ignacio” doesn’t preclude him knowing Nacho is dead. A dead Nacho obviously isn’t going to contradict Saul.

[Atlanta]

Nacho! Noooo! Such a great character and great actor. In anyone else's hands, he wouldn't be likable. 

Mike has amazing muzzle control.

I'm waiting for Kim to put on a fake mustache and twirl it. The ponytail of evil!

[Scout Finch]

2 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

Wow.  I think you are right.  There was almost no vegetation on the ground when the final scene took place, and there is a good amount in the opening.  

The wrist ties are also on screen for a couple seconds.  

Embarrassed to admit that I blocked out most of that scene with my hand because I was worried there'd be a tarantula due to the closeup of the desert floor! A few seasons ago there was one in the sequence of images during the theme music. Needless to say I hate those moments in BB and El Camino! When I could tell the camera was panning upward then I looked. I didn't know that was a piece of glass, though. Thought it was just a bone.

Edited April 26, 2022 by Scout Finch

[tennisgurl]

No, its too early! Not Nacho! I spent the whole episode desperately hoping that Nacho would somehow make it out alive, but as we got closer and closer to the end, it seemed like this was inevitable. As tragic as this was and how hard to watch knowing that he was going to meet a tragic end, he at least got to go out swinging. His last angry rant towards Hector was so satisfying, at least he got to go out knowing he spat in their stupid faces one more time and that hopefully his dad will be safe. Poor Mr. Varga, I hope that maybe Mike can get in touch somehow and tell him that his son has gone away somewhere for his own safety, or at least give him some kind of closure instead of just letting the poor man go on never knowing why his son disappeared. 

I know that its almost redundant talking about how amazing the cinematography at this point and the way it uses the desert like a canvas to create its masterpieces, but I really need to comment especially on this episode. The symbolism of the last meal, the way the dessert was framed stretching out forever, the glass delicately shining with blood, it was just so elegant.

Its honestly hard to talk about things that happened in this episode beyond Nacho's death, but there were interesting movement on the Kim and Jimmy front too. Kim's harshness when she asked if Jimmy wanted to be a friend to the cartel or a rat seemed to be really implying some dark stuff in store for Kim. She really spat "rat" out with such venom while starring at Jimmy with these dark eyes, Kim just keeps moving closer and closer to her breaking bad moment, if she hasn't hit it already. I also thought the exchange about why Jimmy was messing with Howard's car was really interesting. If Jimmy is making good money as a lawyer, and so is his wife, things are going well for them, why is he even doing this? Not even the question of what their plan is, but why are they still messing with Howard? Howard is clearly done with them, so what is being gained here? Despite what Jimmy might say, its not about money, its not about helping people, what is the actual point of this? Its really what I think is driving Kim and Jimmy, going back to them doing minor cons at hotel lobbies for fun, when do they admit that this isn't about helping the little guy, or sticking it to the man, or even just making money, but about the thrill of doing bad things? Which was also one of the biggest driving questions of the original Breaking Bad, when do you stop trying to justify your misdeeds and just admit that you like what your doing?

[Bannon]

Been kind of holding off on comment in detail, because it is so damned sad, but if Mando isn't formally recognized by his industry, like McKean mostly wasn't, for their work in Better Call Saul that's just nuts. The sense of doom surrounding his   character has been building for seasons, to this episode, and Mando's subtle, moving performance all along was the key to making his final scenes so overwhelming. The last phone call to his father really got to me; reminded me of my last phone call with my dad, when he knew he was dying, but let me think there was likely still months of time left. Like I said, so overwhelming.

Without that quality of performance all along, the final scene, when he speaks Truth to the scum, would not have been nearly as effective. Great, great, stuff, but too close to real life pain for me to want to experience it too often.

[Colorado David]

great epi. loved the stairwell/key montage. loved hearing Huell again.

Kim's face, she has turned to the dark side.

Ah Nacho...you went out in style, removing the satisfaction from Hector.  It shows in the excessive number of times they shot him after he was gone. GLAD Nacho got the last word, VERY satisfying.  I hate Hector. (The character, not the actor. The actor is fantastic.)

Edited April 26, 2022 by Colorado David
adding clarification

[Blakeston]

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

If Gus values Mike's expertise, and believes Mike's willingness to use that expertise to honor his promise to Nacho, Gus might enlist Eladio to forbid the Salamancas from making a move on Nacho's father. Eladio sees Gus as a much better earner than the Salamancas, so he might honor such a request from Gus, and the Salamancas are too dependent on Eladio to openly defy him. This might he especially true if Lalo gets clipped, as Gus still has a good reason to effect.

I don't see any way for Gus (or Mike) to openly defend Nacho's father. It would reveal a certain loyalty to Nacho.

The cartel knows that Gus wouldn't go out of his way to stand up for the family member of someone who he regarded as an enemy. If Gus says anything about leaving Nacho's father alone, Hector would jump on that as proof that Gus is a traitor.

Unfortunately, Mike can't do much either. He's known to the cartel as Gus's right-hand man, so if he defends Nacho's father in any way, that's going to look very bad for Gus.

The best Mike could do is hire someone to watch over Nacho's father and protect him if a threat arises. But if the Salamancas want the father dead, it would be extraordinarily hard to stop them.

 

[Bannon]

4 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

No, its too early! Not Nacho! I spent the whole episode desperately hoping that Nacho would somehow make it out alive, but as we got closer and closer to the end, it seemed like this was inevitable. As tragic as this was and how hard to watch knowing that he was going to meet a tragic end, he at least got to go out swinging. His last angry rant towards Hector was so satisfying, at least he got to go out knowing he spat in their stupid faces one more time and that hopefully his dad will be safe. Poor Mr. Varga, I hope that maybe Mike can get in touch somehow and tell him that his son has gone away somewhere for his own safety, or at least give him some kind of closure instead of just letting the poor man go on never knowing why his son disappeared. 

I know that its almost redundant talking about how amazing the cinematography at this point and the way it uses the desert like a canvas to create its masterpieces, but I really need to comment especially on this episode. The symbolism of the last meal, the way the dessert was framed stretching out forever, the glass delicately shining with blood, it was just so elegant.

Its honestly hard to talk about things that happened in this episode beyond Nacho's death, but there were interesting movement on the Kim and Jimmy front too. Kim's harshness when she asked if Jimmy wanted to be a friend to the cartel or a rat seemed to be really implying some dark stuff in store for Kim. She really spat "rat" out with such venom while starring at Jimmy with these dark eyes, Kim just keeps moving closer and closer to her breaking bad moment, if she hasn't hit it already. I also thought the exchange about why Jimmy was messing with Howard's car was really interesting. If Jimmy is making good money as a lawyer, and so is his wife, things are going well for them, why is he even doing this? Not even the question of what their plan is, but why are they still messing with Howard? Howard is clearly done with them, so what is being gained here? Despite what Jimmy might say, its not about money, its not about helping people, what is the actual point of this? Its really what I think is driving Kim and Jimmy, going back to them doing minor cons at hotel lobbies for fun, when do they admit that this isn't about helping the little guy, or sticking it to the man, or even just making money, but about the thrill of doing bad things? Which was also one of the biggest driving questions of the original Breaking Bad, when do you stop trying to justify your misdeeds and just admit that you like what your doing?

Oh, Jimmy definitely got Kim hooked on the drug of successfully scamming people, but it goes much deeper than that for Kim and now Saul. They are both consumed by grief, and the anger and hatred that grief leads to. Howard is just the mostly undeserving target of that anger and hatred. If not him, a substitute would have been found.

This entire show is about unresolved grief, anger, and hatred. I know I'm repeating myself, but it's incredible to me that this story has been told,  while also managing to make me laugh out loud so frequently for going on 6 seasons now.

[Irlandesa]

4 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Really.  I felt the same way when she was almost snarling as she told Saul that he had to either become a lawyer for the cartel or a be a rat.  Something very ugly and angry is coming out of Kim.

Yep. It's why I have a hard time believing Kim's motives for all of what she's doing right now are coming from a place of wanting to do good.

There's a way to recommend that Jimmy not break privilege without sounding like she's on the cartel's side and that wasn't it.

[Bannon]

1 minute ago, Blakeston said:

I don't see any way for Gus (or Mike) to openly defend Nacho's father. It would reveal a certain loyalty to Nacho.

The cartel knows that Gus wouldn't go out of his way to stand up for the family member of someone who he regarded as an enemy. If Gus says anything about leaving Nacho's father alone, Hector would jump on that as proof that Gus is a traitor.

Unfortunately, Mike can't do much either. He's known to the cartel as Gus's right-hand man, so if he defends Nacho's father in any way, that's going to look very bad for Gus.

The best Mike could do is hire someone to watch over Nacho's father and protect him if a threat arises. But if the Salamancas want the father dead, it would be extraordinarily hard to stop them.

 

Oh, there needs to be some subtlety, in addition to Lalo being killed very soon, because you're right, Lalo can't be fooled. Soon, however,  dumbass Tuco will be back to being the Salamanca-in- chief, at least north of the border, and dumbass, methed up Tuco can be manipulated. The Cousins are a different matter, but we aren't really sure what command structure they'll be in, if Lalo is sent to Belize.

But you're right: it may be as simple as Lalo and the Cousins coming for Nacho's dad, Mike killing Lalo in the process, the Cousins killing Nacho's dad, and Mike being all the more motivated to finish off the surviving Cousin, in the hospital, after the showdown with Hank.

[Eulipian 5k]

26 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Which was also one of the biggest driving questions of the original Breaking Bad, when do you stop trying to justify your misdeeds and just admit that you like what your doing?

"You wanna know who really knows Jimmy? ...Chuck." I'll just keep repeating this mantra as we slide down Jacob's Ladder with these two miscreants. We only have Mike to root for; damn you Walt!

[nodorothyparker]

Rewatching Nacho's death scene the way he growls and spits out "When you're sitting in that shitty nursing home sucking down that Jello ... You think of me!" with such venom is all the more breathtaking when you know from Breaking Bad that Hector still has plenty of time ahead of him to do exactly that. It's a really magnificent performance the more you look at it, even in the way you can see his eyes darting around as he's holding Bolsa just to be damn sure there's no possible other options, no exit strategy before he pulls the trigger. Not that I really believe he even thought there was one as much as it's instinctual human nature to be absolutely sure all the doors are closed before you off yourself.

Jimmy and Kim feel almost like an afterthought in this episode, but still interesting how they each reacted to the DA's fishing expedition on Lalo. Jimmy seemed to actually at least briefly consider it to the point of asking what she thought he should do, which suggests even now he's still not completely been consumed by Saul where Kim's word choice and tone in characterizing it as turning rat made it clear she didn't consider it a valid choice worth thinking about at all. She's already full steam ahead. It's also interesting and perhaps telling about our justice system that the same DA who once characterized Jimmy as a scumbag who sells drop phones to criminals would even offer Jimmy the courtesy of "oh maybe the poor dear was tricked into helping all these criminals."

Did love Huell asking what the point of all their extracurriculars is when they're clearly not in it just for whatever ill gotten gains they might be able to scrape up. Unlike so many of the other people in their world, they both have or had other legitimate options.

 

[Bannon]

Just now, Eulipian 5k said:

"You wanna know who really knows Jimmy? ...Chuck." I'll just keep repeating this mantra as we slide down Jacob's Ladder with these two miscreants. We only have Mike to root for; damn you Walt!

Walt was such an A-hole, practically from the very beginning. I could never understand how so so many fans viewed him so sympathetically. Hey, A-holes get cancer, too!

[Eulipian 5k]

3 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

clearly not in it just for whatever ill gotten gains they might be able to scrape up.

The opening of 6-1 shows exactly where their ill gotten gains went; for a golden toilet? No kids, no family, no Kailin, just vanity possessions?

[Bannon]

5 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

Rewatching Nacho's death scene the way he growls and spits out "When you're sitting in that shitty nursing home sucking down that Jello ... You think of me!" with such venom is all the more breathtaking when you know from Breaking Bad that Hector still has plenty of time ahead of him to do exactly that. It's a really magnificent performance the more you look at it, even in the way you can see his eyes darting around as he's holding Bolsa just to be damn sure there's no possible other options, no exit strategy before he pulls the trigger. Not that I really believe he even thought there was one as much as it's instinctual human nature to be absolutely sure all the doors are closed before you off yourself.

Jimmy and Kim feel almost like an afterthought in this episode, but still interesting how they each reacted to the DA's fishing expedition on Lalo. Jimmy seemed to actually at least briefly consider it to the point of asking what she thought he should do, which suggests even now he's still not completely been consumed by Saul where Kim's word choice and tone in characterizing it as turning rat made it clear she didn't consider it a valid choice worth thinking about at all. She's already full steam ahead. It's also interesting and perhaps telling about our justice system that the same DA who once characterized Jimmy as a scumbag who sells drop phones to criminals would even offer Jimmy the courtesy of "oh maybe the poor dear was tricked into helping all these criminals."

Did love Huell asking what the point of all their extracurriculars is when they're clearly not in it just for whatever ill gotten gains they might be able to scrape up. Unlike so many of the other people in their world, they both have or had other legitimate options.

 

Among the very long list of things, that this story has been great at,  is illuminating how the criminal justice system is, in large measure, is just a factory for producing guilty pleas, with justice and public safety very secondary concerns. A large % of prosecutors and criminal defense attorneys are just working an assembly line, in rooms with high quality wood paneling.

[BeatrixK]

13 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Walt was such an A-hole, practically from the very beginning. I could never understand how so so many fans viewed him so sympathetically. Hey, A-holes get cancer, too!

Predisposed Bias:  A High School Teacher, parent of a disabled child, Cancer patient, baby on the way - he comes in checking a lot of boxes we deem sympathetic on initial impression.  But Cranston is SO good he meshes the evil through that audience predisposition and BOOM...Why am I rooting for an asshole again?  lol

 

Damn...Banks is a masterclass in wordless acting!

 

[Constantinople]

I'm not sure why the Salamancas would go after Nacho's father since he wasn't involved in the drug business. Even if they wanted to, it shouldn't be hard for Gus or other members or associates of the Cartel to say No. Look at all the law enforcement attention that resulted from Lalo murdering Fred the TravelWire clerk.

[Penman61]

6 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I'm not sure why the Salamancas would go after Nacho's father since he wasn't involved in the drug business. Even if they wanted to, it shouldn't be hard for Gus or other members or associates of the Cartel to say No. Look at all the law enforcement attention that resulted from Lalo murdering Fred the TravelWire clerk.

This is logical, but the way Hector was pumping bullets into Nacho's carcass makes me think he might not be 100% rational on this topic.

Also, was Hector unsuccessful in getting Nacho's father to use his store as some kind of front? I can't remember that outcome; I just remember Hector slapping cash down on the father's counter.

[peeayebee]

Yeah, Hector will want more revenge than just pumping a bunch of bullets into Nacho's corpse. I feel sure that Mike will be able to protect Manuel, though I don't know how. But these writers, man, they will find a way.

[BC4ME]

One thing I really enjoyed in Nacho's last speech was how he completely dissed Gus, saying the possibility of him being involved in the attack on Lalo was a joke, like Gus wasn't up to it. At the same time he was exonerating Gus, he sure got his barb in on it. It was a skillful execution and I'm sure it stung Gus.

Edited April 26, 2022 by BC4ME

[Gobi]

1 hour ago, Irlandesa said:

There's a way to recommend that Jimmy not break privilege without sounding like she's on the cartel's side and that wasn't it.

The DA’s proposal is a Hobson’s choice for Jimmy.

He can’t admit that he knew who Lalo was. If he did, he would be admitting to perpetrating a fraud on the court (amongst other crimes) that would get him disbarred at the very least.

If he says he didn’t know and cooperates, he had better get used to living in the witness protection program because he’s signed his own death warrant.

His only option is to say he didn’t know but refuse to waive attorney client privilege. He cannot be made to waive it in this instance.

[Irlandesa]

2 minutes ago, Gobi said:

His only option is to say he didn’t know but refuse to waive attorney client privilege. He cannot be made to waive it in this instance.

I agree.  I wasn't talking about Jimmy's options but rather the way Kim chose to present them to him.

[Eulipian 5k]

1 minute ago, Gobi said:

His only option is to say he didn’t know but refuse to waive attorney client privilege. He cannot be made to waive it in this instance.

The privilege goes away if they're proven to be involved in a conspiracy to de-fraud the court.

Does Lalo still need "proof" now that Nacho confessed to Bolsa? There's gonna be a fugitive warrant for Salamanca if he comes north.

[Gobi]

3 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

I agree.  I wasn't talking about Jimmy's options but rather the way Kim chose to present them to him.

I know. I just quoted you because it was the first one I found that mentioned the options.

[Gobi]

1 minute ago, Eulipian 5k said:

The privilege goes away if they're proven to be involved in a conspiracy to de-fraud the court.

Which Jimmy can’t admit to doing. Even then, he can’t be forced to testify, although any physical evidence (such as notes) would be subject to subpoena.

[Bannon]

8 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

The privilege goes away if they're proven to be involved in a conspiracy to de-fraud the court.

Does Lalo still need "proof" now that Nacho confessed to Bolsa? There's gonna be a fugitive warrant for Salamanca if he comes north.

Lalo still wants to destroy Gus. Proving to Eladio and Bolsa that it was Gus who was behind the move on Lalo might do that. Now that Nacho's dead, might that proof lie with............Mike? Mike has to know this. Gus has to know this. Lalo vs. Mike, loser leaves the planet, is a pretty good pay-per-view show.

[gallimaufry]

Need time to process that.  It was beautiful.  It was shocking.  It was heartbreaking.

As upset as I am to lose Nacho so early, I guess they really had run out of road with him and with so little time left it was time to shut down some story elements.  Like the best plot twists, it seems utterly inevitable but only in retrospect.

I gather they split the seasons to have two bites at the cherry with Emmys.  If it gets Michael Mando an award it's totally worth it.  He needs all the awards for that episode.

Also though... Gordon Smith.  I mean, I get all these episodes are collaborative efforts.  But... "Five-O"... "Chicanery"... "Bagman"... now this?  I really hope he gets his own show soon.

[dabbrusc]

1 hour ago, Blakeston said:

I don't see any way for Gus (or Mike) to openly defend Nacho's father. It would reveal a certain loyalty to Nacho.

The cartel knows that Gus wouldn't go out of his way to stand up for the family member of someone who he regarded as an enemy. If Gus says anything about leaving Nacho's father alone, Hector would jump on that as proof that Gus is a traitor.

Unfortunately, Mike can't do much either. He's known to the cartel as Gus's right-hand man, so if he defends Nacho's father in any way, that's going to look very bad for Gus.

The best Mike could do is hire someone to watch over Nacho's father and protect him if a threat arises. But if the Salamancas want the father dead, it would be extraordinarily hard to stop them.

 

Don't forget Mike has the Fake Manitoba ID that Nacho created for his father (and I believe some of the money) from Nacho's safe last week. I would guess Mike is going to slip that to him and in no uncertain terms tell him to get the heck out of Dodge.

[Bannon]

5 minutes ago, dabbrusc said:

Don't forget Mike has the Fake Manitoba ID that Nacho created for his father (and I believe some of the money) from Nacho's safe last week. I would guess Mike is going to slip that to him and in no uncertain terms tell him to get the heck out of Dodge.

I'd be shocked if Manuel did that. He seems quite willing to die rather than leave for Canada. Now, if family in Mexico was threatened, maybe that would move him. If Mike tells Manuel that the Salamancas killed his son? That might be interesting, but I can't see Mike doing it.