S06.E03: Rock and Hard Place

[Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

Good analysis, especially about Kim's lack of self awareness. I tend to think her "more" in the interview with Schweikert was not so much deliberately vague, and more that it reflected her genuine inability to precisely describe what is missing in her life, that she feels compelled to find.

Something  more than helping rich guys get richer and trample all over their “lessers” when they get in the way of that. But I don’t think she had any concrete vision of what that entailed.

[Bannon]

Assuming Lalo gets sent to Belize sometime in the next 10 episodes, these writers really had it in for the Salamanca family didn't they?

16 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Something  more than helping rich guys get richer and trample all over their “lessers” when they get in the way of that. But I don’t think she had any concrete vision of what that entailed.

And not even helping the underprivileged, since that could be more reliably done by remaining a partner at Schweikert.

[Cinnabon]

18 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Assuming Lalo gets sent to Belize sometime in the next 10 episodes, these writers really had it in for the Salamanca family didn't they?

And not even helping the underprivileged, since that could be more reliably done by remaining a partner at Schweikert.

I don’t think it could be more reliably done while still working at Schweikert. There are plenty of full time public defenders who manage to get by.

[Bannon]

16 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

I don’t think it could be more reliably done while still working at Schweikert. There are plenty of full time public defenders who manage to get by.

Frankly, I don't think public defenders are allowed to provide high quality defenses; the caseload they are given nearly guarantees they are forced to simply  become part of the Guilty Plea Factory that is our criminal justice system. It's disgusting.

[peeayebee]

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

It's interesting that Lalo wasn't there to hear Nacho's confession. He was well enough to murder two people with a scissors blade, so it's not likely his wounds were the cause. If it's the jumping bail and outstanding murder charge that keeps him in Mexico, then it means Lalo needs help to get to Mike, and Lalo has to know that Mike is the key to proving to Eladio that Gus made the move on Lalo.

Why would Lalo be there? He's supposed to be dead.

[Bannon]

8 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

Why would Lalo be there? He's supposed to be dead.

Yeah, I forgot that the Salamancas don't know that Gus&Mike are aware that Lalo is still alive. Bosa likely isn't aware of this. I wonder what that might mean.

[Constantinople]

2 hours ago, Bannon said:

Assuming Lalo gets sent to Belize sometime in the next 10 episodes, these writers really had it in for the Salamanca family didn't they?

No more so than anyone else in Breaking Bad or Better Call Saul who was in the drug business. I've lost count of the number of times when I realize that everyone in a scene is dead.

[Gobi]

23 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

No more so than anyone else in Breaking Bad or Better Call Saul who was in the drug business. I've lost count of the number of times when I realize that everyone in a scene is dead.

In the BB and BCS universe, the wages of sin are usually death.

[Melonie77]

5 hours ago, Bannon said:

Maybe they kill Nacho immediately, but maybe they just wound him, leading to an extended, agonizing death, with the possibility of the true plot on Lalo being revealed. Also, Gus very much wants Bolsa alive, as an intermediary between the Salamancas and Eladio, until that time that Gus no longer needs drugs imported from Mexico. Mike really doesn't want to interfere with Gus' business model, because Mike's entire motivation is to extract enough money from Gus' business, to secure a financial future for his granddaughter. The cleanest resolution was for Nacho to kill himself, and since orchestrating Nacho's death while selling the lie was what Mike, Nacho, and Gus were working for, I think "do it" meant "kill yourself".
You might be right, of course, in that Mike is human, and not a pure calculating machine. It could be that he was, in that moment, just disgusted with the whole bloody mess, and wanted to see somebody else dead along with Nacho.

If you rewatch the scene you will see that "Do it" does not mean 'kill yourself'. It is very very clear that it is long-distance encouragement from Mike to take out Bolsa whose skull at that moment has a gun pressed to it. The gun is not aimed at Nacho's head at that point. Mike seems to admire Nacho's last stand in the desert. Is there any way you are able to catch that bit again? 😁

5 hours ago, Bannon said:

Ir's surprising how often people die slowly from multiple gunshots, not quickly. Mike wouldn't be surprised, because he's been in combat. Someone with Mike's experience would be unlikely to simply assume that Nacho shooting Bolsa in the head guarantees an immediate death for Nacho. A barrel placed to the skull, by the holder of the pistol, then the trigger pulled, is a much more certain fast death, and the fast death of Nacho was what Mike, Gus, and Nacho desired.

I agree with all your well stated arguments. This show allows for much thought and analysis which is one of the things that makes it great. I don't want to annoy everyone by continuing to restate my opinion, but that one tiny bit of footage with Mike colored the way I saw the rest of the scene and it opens up some questions.
So...I am politely saying that despite all your sensible interpretations, I am 100% positive it is shown on screen that Mike wanted Nacho to shoot Bolsa when he said "do it".
Mike is not as 'bad' as the rest of these characters so I don't find it unreasonable to believe he would want to see cartel members taken out. Whatever the prior plan was, despite fear for Nacho's father and Gus' position in the cartel - at that moment Mike wanted a bullet through Bolsa's head.
When I originally watched the episode Mike's cheerleading in that scene briefly led me to believe/gave me some hope Nacho was somehow going to get away. 

4 hours ago, peeayebee said:

I'm not so sure that Mike wanted Nacho to shoot Bolsa because Mike wanted Bolsa dead. Maybe he wanted Nacho to shoot so that would give Mike an excuse to shoot Hector and the Cousins.

This is another great interpretation because once again Mike is not "bad" the way the rest of these guys are. Maybe he was hoping to reduce the cartel army by seeing Hector, the twins and Bolsa taken out of the picture. Surely they could have concocted an explanation, found someone to blame or covered up the way it went down somehow. 

I still find it hard to swallow that there were no other options for Nacho. I know there have been some very well explained reasons laid out here on this forum and elsewhere why he had to go at this point, but if I was in his shoes I think I would have tried to come up with a different plan to save my father and myself - one that did not include offering myself up to murderous cartel members to be tortured and killed. I also have a problem with the one guy 'breaking good' being sacrificed for all the others. I was rooting for Nacho to survive and was definitely not happy he died this early in the season!🤣

5 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

That's how I look at it.  Mike was thinking about completing the mission and not looking ahead to the possible ramifications of taking out a cartel leader.  

You are most welcome.  But please, call me Peter.  Mr. Pirate was my father.  

@Peter😊
Yes! And Mike of course was also influenced by his feelings of loss for his son / sadness for Nacho.
I'm so happy you rewatched the "Mike says Do it" part and hope maybe one or two others here might also.
Those two words and Mike's facial expressions influenced how I perceived the remainder of that entire scene and then left me somewhat dissatisfied with this episode.

[Cinnabon]

14 minutes ago, Melonie77 said:

If you rewatch the scene you will see that "Do it" does not mean 'kill yourself'. It is very very clear that it is long-distance encouragement from Mike to take out Bolsa whose skull at that moment has a gun pressed to it. The gun is not aimed at Nacho's head at that point. Mike seems to admire Nacho's last stand in the desert. Is there any way you are able to catch that bit again? 😁

I agree with all your well stated arguments. This show allows for much thought and analysis which is one of the things that makes it great. I don't want to annoy everyone by continuing to restate my opinion, but that one tiny bit of footage with Mike colored the way I saw the rest of the scene and it opens up some questions.
So...I am politely saying that despite all your sensible interpretations, I am 100% positive it is shown on screen that Mike wanted Nacho to shoot Bolsa when he said "do it".
Mike is not as 'bad' as the rest of these characters so I don't find it unreasonable to believe he would want to see cartel members taken out. Whatever the prior plan was, despite fear for Nacho's father and Gus' position in the cartel - at that moment Mike wanted a bullet through Bolsa's head.
When I originally watched the episode Mike's cheerleading in that scene briefly led me to believe/gave me some hope Nacho was somehow going to get away. 

This is another great interpretation because once again Mike is not "bad" the way the rest of these guys are. Maybe he was hoping to reduce the cartel army by seeing Hector, the twins and Bolsa taken out of the picture. Surely they could have concocted an explanation, found someone to blame or covered up the way it went down somehow. 

I still find it hard to swallow that there were no other options for Nacho. I know there have been some very well explained reasons laid out here on this forum and elsewhere why he had to go at this point, but if I was in his shoes I think I would have tried to come up with a different plan to save my father and myself - one that did not include offering myself up to murderous cartel members to be tortured and killed. I also have a problem with the one guy 'breaking good' being sacrificed for all the others. I was rooting for Nacho to survive and was definitely not happy he died this early in the season!🤣

@Peter😊
Yes! And Mike of course was also influenced by his feelings of loss for his son / sadness for Nacho.
I'm so happy you rewatched the "Mike says Do it" part and hope maybe one or two others here might also.
Those two words and Mike's facial expressions influenced how I perceived the remainder of that entire scene and then left me somewhat dissatisfied with this episode.

I rewatched that scene, too, and I’m still on the fence regarding Mike’s “do it.” I originally thought he wanted Nacho to take out Bolsa, but that would’ve led to multiple casualties (maybe not a bad thing, lol). But that couldn’t happen because we know that all of the characters in that scene except Nacho live on to appear in BB. I just can’t decide! Maybe the writers wanted it to be murky. 

It took me longer than most to accept that Nacho’s only option was to sacrifice himself. When Mike got him out of that truck, I was relieved and thought there was still a chance for him. Maybe he should’ve told his dad the truth during that last phone call and begged him to flee with the fake IDs. I’ve brought up the witness protection program as an option that may have kept him safe, but as others have pointed out, that would’ve meant certain death/torture for his dad unless his dad went with him, and that wasn’t acceptable to him. Witness protection may even have sent him and his dad to different locations, and they wouldn’t ever have been able to contact one another.

 

 

Edited April 29, 2022 by Cinnabon

[scenario]

20 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

I rewatched that scene, too, and I’m still on the fence regarding Mike’s “do it.” I originally thought he wanted Nacho to take out Bolsa, but that would’ve led to multiple casualties (maybe not a bad thing, lol). But that couldn’t happen because we know that all of the characters in that scene except Nacho live on to appear in BB. I just can’t decide! Maybe the writers wanted it to be murky. 

It took me longer than most to accept that Nacho’s only option was to sacrifice himself. When Mike got him out of that truck, I was relieved and thought there was still a chance for him. Maybe he should’ve told his dad the truth during that last phone call and begged him to flee with the fake IDs. I’ve brought up the witness protection program as an option that may have kept him safe, but as others have pointed out, that would’ve meant certain death/torture for his dad unless his dad went with him, and that wasn’t acceptable to him. Witness protection may even have sent him and his dad to different locations, and they wouldn’t ever have been able to contact one another.

 

 

Nacho has been terrified for his father for months, maybe years. He just spent days running for his life. He managed to get a gun and hold it to someone's head. He wasn't in any mental shape to think of an alternate plan to get away from a whole bunch of armed men in the middle of the desert who wanted him dead. Most of whom wanted him to die slowly and painfully. He knew he was dead either way. He could try to shoot it out but that just delays the inevitable. He just decided to stop running and get it over with in the way he thought was most likely to save his father's life. 

[Cinnabon]

6 minutes ago, scenario said:

Nacho has been terrified for his father for months, maybe years. He just spent days running for his life. He managed to get a gun and hold it to someone's head. He wasn't in any mental shape to think of an alternate plan to get away from a whole bunch of armed men in the middle of the desert who wanted him dead. Most of whom wanted him to die slowly and painfully. He knew he was dead either way. He could try to shoot it out but that just delays the inevitable. He just decided to stop running and get it over with in the way he thought was most likely to save his father's life. 

Oh, I definitely agree. I just didn’t want to accept that he didn’t have any other viable options.

[scenario]

1 minute ago, Cinnabon said:

Oh, I definitely agree. I just didn’t want to accept that he didn’t have any other viable options.

I think that he was looking for options forever. He decided that he was out of options when he called his father. Once he made that decision, there was no turning back for him. In his mind, his fate was sealed. 

[Gobi]

Following up on the religious imagery, and the episode’s proximity to Easter, notice how Nacho speaks to his father one last time, forgives a criminal (by not killing Bolsa), and dies for the sins of others (Gus and Mike).

[gallimaufry]

Here's another avenue for it to blow up for Jimmy: what if he does try to do the right thing and try to make some deal with Ericsen?  Once he's opened that door, I can see her sympathetic approach evaporating fast leaving him really high and dry and needing to pivot hard into the "criminal lawyer" schtick to justify to the cartel that he's, in fact, not a rat.  I don't see this happening but I do feel there are going to be some times in this where we zag where we expect to zig.

On 603, one thing I keep coming back to which slightly disappoints me is that it does feel almost entirely divorced from the A storyline.  BCS has always been a strange hybrid of two different shows and I've enjoyed that but I always assumed it would knit the strands together before bringing them to an end.  But Nacho only had one significant encounter with Jimmy since S1 and there was playing second fiddle to Lalo.  Obviously he's slightly more integrated into the Mike storyline but with the exception of the vow to protect Nacho's father, all the running in recent times has been by Gus.  I think the story is terrific in itself so it's not necessarily bad that it had its own space but if we move onto other areas and Nacho's sacrifice is more or less forgotten as a 6-year-long B-story, I'm going to feel disappointed.  I don't like to think that's where they'd go but I can't really see how Nacho's fate at this point is going to resonate too deeply with anyone except Mike who has deeper wounds such as his son and Werner anyway.

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, Melonie77 said:

If you rewatch the scene you will see that "Do it" does not mean 'kill yourself'. It is very very clear that it is long-distance encouragement from Mike to take out Bolsa whose skull at that moment has a gun pressed to it. The gun is not aimed at Nacho's head at that point. Mike seems to admire Nacho's last stand in the desert. Is there any way you are able to catch that bit again? 😁

I agree with all your well stated arguments. This show allows for much thought and analysis which is one of the things that makes it great. I don't want to annoy everyone by continuing to restate my opinion, but that one tiny bit of footage with Mike colored the way I saw the rest of the scene and it opens up some questions.
So...I am politely saying that despite all your sensible interpretations, I am 100% positive it is shown on screen that Mike wanted Nacho to shoot Bolsa when he said "do it".
Mike is not as 'bad' as the rest of these characters so I don't find it unreasonable to believe he would want to see cartel members taken out. Whatever the prior plan was, despite fear for Nacho's father and Gus' position in the cartel - at that moment Mike wanted a bullet through Bolsa's head.
When I originally watched the episode Mike's cheerleading in that scene briefly led me to believe/gave me some hope Nacho was somehow going to get away. 

This is another great interpretation because once again Mike is not "bad" the way the rest of these guys are. Maybe he was hoping to reduce the cartel army by seeing Hector, the twins and Bolsa taken out of the picture. Surely they could have concocted an explanation, found someone to blame or covered up the way it went down somehow. 

I still find it hard to swallow that there were no other options for Nacho. I know there have been some very well explained reasons laid out here on this forum and elsewhere why he had to go at this point, but if I was in his shoes I think I would have tried to come up with a different plan to save my father and myself - one that did not include offering myself up to murderous cartel members to be tortured and killed. I also have a problem with the one guy 'breaking good' being sacrificed for all the others. I was rooting for Nacho to survive and was definitely not happy he died this early in the season!🤣

@Peter😊
Yes! And Mike of course was also influenced by his feelings of loss for his son / sadness for Nacho.
I'm so happy you rewatched the "Mike says Do it" part and hope maybe one or two others here might also.
Those two words and Mike's facial expressions influenced how I perceived the remainder of that entire scene and then left me somewhat dissatisfied with this episode.

I did watch it again. It's ok for us to disagree.

[Melonie77]

58 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

I rewatched that scene, too, and I’m still on the fence regarding Mike’s “do it.” I originally thought he wanted Nacho to take out Bolsa, but that would’ve led to multiple casualties (maybe not a bad thing, lol). But that couldn’t happen because we know that all of the characters in that scene except Nacho live on to appear in BB. I just can’t decide! Maybe the writers wanted it to be murky. 

I guess this depends on how we are meant to view a prequel. Should one interpret scenes with knowledge of what happens in the future or by just what we see? Someone who has not watched BB would have no problem believing Do It was meant for Bolas. I believe the scene was written and directed to be interpreted in just that way. But we are having problems with it because we know every single one of the other 8 people in that scene all make it to BB.

1 hour ago, Cinnabon said:

It took me longer than most to accept that Nacho’s only option was to sacrifice himself. When Mike got him out of that truck, I was relieved and thought there was still a chance for him. Maybe he should’ve told his dad the truth during that last phone call and begged him to flee with the fake IDs. I’ve brought up the witness protection program as an option that may have kept him safe, but as others have pointed out, that would’ve meant certain death/torture for his dad unless his dad went with him, and that wasn’t acceptable to him. Witness protection may even have sent him and his dad to different locations, and they wouldn’t ever have been able to contact one another.

I'm right there with you and I'm still having some problems with it!🙃 One issue I had was how Nacho decided all of this on his own. Why not get back to the relative safety of Mike and discuss some options? Perhaps his Dad needed to be told the full story and given some choices. If the father knew his son was going to be killed and that he himself was in danger maybe he would have been willing to disappear into the witness protection protection along with his son. What about the guy who helped Saul disappear in BB? Why couldn't Mike disappear and the cartel be told he was dead?  Stage his death if necessary. Then follow the same plan to protect his father. 

[Melonie77]

1 hour ago, scenario said:

Nacho has been terrified for his father for months, maybe years. He just spent days running for his life. He managed to get a gun and hold it to someone's head. He wasn't in any mental shape to think of an alternate plan to get away from a whole bunch of armed men in the middle of the desert who wanted him dead. Most of whom wanted him to die slowly and painfully. He knew he was dead either way. He could try to shoot it out but that just delays the inevitable. He just decided to stop running and get it over with in the way he thought was most likely to save his father's life. 

I was thinking options could have been discussed long before the desert scene.

Edited April 29, 2022 by Melonie77

[Bannon]

2 hours ago, Constantinople said:

No more so than anyone else in Breaking Bad or Better Call Saul who was in the drug business. I've lost count of the number of times when I realize that everyone in a scene is dead.

Now, now, the writers took mercy on Skyler, who was certainly in the money laundering end of the drug business. Jesse still lives. Badger and Skinny Pete are still up to their hijinks. The Salamancas? Wiped out completely. Such a loss to the world....

[scenario]

3 minutes ago, Melonie77 said:

I was thinking options could have been discussed long before the desert scene.

I'm sure they were. I doubt that Gus was open to any other option. 

[JudyObscure]

12 minutes ago, Melonie77 said:

If the father knew his son was going to be killed and that he himself was in danger maybe he would have been willing to disappear into the witness protection protection along with his son.

Yes, I feel sure he would have. it just kills me that his father is going to have to live with the knowledge that the last time he spoke to his son, he told him had to get back to work, and didn't say he loved him, even though he could hear the tears in Nacho's voice. 

I understand his father's frustration, how he didn't get why Nacho couldn't just go to the police, but oh I hurt for Nacho so much during that scene.

[Dessert]

I was thinking about the fact that Kim has no friends and realized that most of the characters in BCS have no friends (Howard may be an exception). They have employees, coworkers, henchmen, enemies, and people they may have to kill at a moment’s notice. Some have family, but none have friends. Such lonely people.

This is in sharp contrast to Breaking Bad.  

[Gobi]

Were there a lot of friends in BB? I honestly don’t remember.

I’m sure the main reason is economy of characters. The show can’t have characters who don’t in some way advance the story. If, for example, Jimmy and Kim went to dinner with another couple, something would have to happen to advance the story or illuminate the characters. Then the writer would have to consider “can I do this without introducing new characters?”.  A five minute scene of dinner with friends is a waste of time if it doesn’t move the plot forward.

[Ellaria]

2 hours ago, Melonie77 said:

If you rewatch the scene you will see that "Do it" does not mean 'kill yourself'. It is very very clear that it is long-distance encouragement from Mike to take out Bolsa whose skull at that moment has a gun pressed to it. The gun is not aimed at Nacho's head at that point. Mike seems to admire Nacho's last stand in the desert. Is there any way you are able to catch that bit again?

Saying that it’s “very very clear” is not quite true. That scene is subject to interpretation. I’ve rewatched it and don’t think that it is encouragement to take out Bolsa. Instead, I agree with your statement that Mike admires Nacho’s last stand. No one could have predicted with any certainty how that standoff would unfold. I interpret “do it” as Mike telling Nacho to go out on his terms, to take control of the situation as best he can in that moment.

16 minutes ago, Melonie77 said:

I was thinking options could have been discussed long before the desert scene.

When? And what options should have been considered?

[Melonie77]

39 minutes ago, gallimaufry said:

On 603, one thing I keep coming back to which slightly disappoints me is that it does feel almost entirely divorced from the A storyline.  BCS has always been a strange hybrid of two different shows and I've enjoyed that but I always assumed it would knit the strands together before bringing them to an end.  But Nacho only had one significant encounter with Jimmy since S1 and there was playing second fiddle to Lalo.  Obviously he's slightly more integrated into the Mike storyline but with the exception of the vow to protect Nacho's father, all the running in recent times has been by Gus.  I think the story is terrific in itself so it's not necessarily bad that it had its own space but if we move onto other areas and Nacho's sacrifice is more or less forgotten as a 6-year-long B-story, I'm going to feel disappointed.  I don't like to think that's where they'd go but I can't really see how Nacho's fate at this point is going to resonate too deeply with anyone except Mike who has deeper wounds such as his son and Werner anyway.

Great post!
I think the B-story angle is part of what is bothering me about this episode along with Nacho's sacrifice. It feels as if his storyline resolution was rushed. Do the writers have so much yet to tell us about the rest of the characters that they had to short-change Nacho?

19 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

Yes, I feel sure he would have. it just kills me that his father is going to have to live with the knowledge that the last time he spoke to his son, he told him had to get back to work, and didn't say he loved him, even though he could hear the tears in Nacho's voice. 

I understand his father's frustration, how he didn't get why Nacho couldn't just go to the police, but oh I hurt for Nacho so much during that scene.

This was indeed such a sad conversation. I wonder if we will learn anything more about the father and whether he finds out his son is dead.

I would have enjoyed more time with the Nacho storyline.

[chick binewski]

48 minutes ago, Melonie77 said:

I'm right there with you and I'm still having some problems with it!🙃 One issue I had was how Nacho decided all of this on his own. Why not get back to the relative safety of Mike and discuss some options? Perhaps his Dad needed to be told the full story and given some choices. If the father knew his son was going to be killed and that he himself was in danger maybe he would have been willing to disappear into the witness protection protection along with his son.

 

3 minutes ago, Melonie77 said:

It feels as if his storyline resolution was rushed. Do the writers have so much yet to tell us about the rest of the characters that they had to short-change Nacho?

This was indeed such a sad conversation. I wonder if we will learn anything more about the father and whether he finds out his son is dead.

I would have enjoyed more time with the Nacho storyline.

According to Michael Mando, the subtext of the phone conversation was Nacho asking his father to leave with him and the father refusing bc running wasn't an answer for him.

Again, I really didn't want to lose Mando especially this early in the season. But I trust the writers of this show to pace the remainder of the story in a satisfying way.

 Also, the Gilli-gould universe loves dead people flashbacks.

[sistermagpie]

16 minutes ago, Gobi said:

Were there a lot of friends in BB? I honestly don’t remember.

 

People on TV often have few friends because they don't have time to develop that many relationships on screen, so I often don't pay attention to suggestions they're weird for not having any unless it's pointed out as a thing.

So it doesn't kind of stand out when someone has friends--like Jesse had Badger and Skinny Pete. And I'd say Hank and Gomie were friends. I can't remember if there were more relationships that were strictly about friendships.

[Melonie77]

4 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Saying that it’s “very very clear” is not quite true. That scene is subject to interpretation. I’ve rewatched it and don’t think that it is encouragement to take out Bolsa. Instead, I agree with your statement that Mike admires Nacho’s last stand. No one could have predicted with any certainty how that standoff would unfold. I interpret “do it” as Mike telling Nacho to go out on his terms, to take control of the situation as best he can in that moment.

When? And what options should have been considered?

I'm not usually a black and white person but that part of the scene was clear to me.
I do take your point however in that it doesn't matter who it was that Nacho grabbed and whose head then had a gun pressed into it. There may have been no significance to Mike wanting Bolas in particular killed, he just happened to be the one within convenient reach.

But Mike told Nacho to kill the man that Nacho got the better of and was cheering him on. He admired Nacho's last stand and at that moment wanted him to take it further.

Regarding your question "When? And what options should have been considered?"
I posted some thoughts about this in a separate response a few answers above this one. I'm sure there are any number of creative ideas that could have been conceived but for some reason the writers wanted the Nacho storyline wrapped up early.

[PeterPirate]

Here is a mini-timeline about the final scene.  

44:12 - Nacho stabs Bolsa
44:13 - Nacho grabs Bolsa's gun
44:14 - Nacho grabs Bolsa and puts the gun to Bolsa's head
44:26 - Mike says "Do it"
44:34 - Mike raises his head such that he is no longer looking through the rifle scope
44:36 - Nacho shoots himself

Nacho had the gun to Bolsa's head for 22 seconds, including 12 seconds before Mike's made his utterance.  If Mike did not want Nacho to shoot Bolsa, he would not have said "Do it", he would have said "Don't do it".  And I surmise that Mike raised his head because he realized that Nacho was not going to shoot Bolsa.  

For my money this not a difference of interpretation, but rather a difference of approach.  Some of us take what is given--Mike said "Do it" when Nacho had a gun pointed a Bolsa's head, therefore Mike wanted Nacho to shoot Bolsa.  Then there are those who apply their own logic and sensibilities to a scene and interpreting things accordingly--it would have been stupid for Nacho to shoot Bolsa, and since Mike is not stupid he would have wanted Nacho to not shoot Bolsa.  

I am not going to say that one approach is better than another.  I just happen to be in the "Take what is given camp", and have been since I started posting at this site's predecessor in 2006. 

Edited April 29, 2022 by PeterPirate

[Dessert]

25 minutes ago, Gobi said:

 

Were there a lot of friends in BB? I honestly don’t remember.

I’m sure the main reason is economy of characters. The show can’t have characters who don’t in some way advance the story. If, for example, Jimmy and Kim went to dinner with another couple, something would have to happen to advance the story or illuminate the characters. Then the writer would have to consider “can I do this without introducing new characters?”.  A five minute scene of dinner with friends is a waste of time if it doesn’t move the plot forward

 

There were definitely friends in Breaking Bad. They weren’t given their own storylines, but they were there to show that Jesse, Hank, and Marie had a social lives and we’re part of a community. Walt and, eventually Skylar, were isolated by their secrets and lying. 
 

I don’t agree that a few scenes with friends are a waste of time. I can think of many shows that depicted people with friends - the Sopranos comes to mind. It depends on the type of show. Police procedural, for instance, may not dwell on the private lives of the policemen or lawyers.

I think isolation and loneliness are intentional themes in Better Call Saul. 

[Melonie77]

On 4/29/2022 at 4:55 PM, Bannon said:

I did watch it again. It's ok for us to disagree.

I wish you had stated that you rewatched it sooner. I thought I was debating with someone that did not remember exactly how the scene had played out. Instead it feels as if it may not be ok for me to disagree.

22 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

Here is a mini-timeline about the final scene.  

44:12 - Nacho stabs Bolsa
44:13 - Nacho grabs Bolsa's gun
44:14 - Nacho grabs Bolsa and puts the gun to Bolsa's head
44:26 - Mike says "Do it"
44:34 - Mike raises his head such that he is no longer looking through the rifle scope
44:36 - Nacho shoots himself

Nacho had the gun to Bolsa's head for 22 seconds, including 12 seconds before Mike's made his utterance.  If Mike did not want Nacho to shoot Bolsa, he would not have said "Do it", he would have said "Don't do it".  And I surmise that Mike raised his head because he realized that Nacho was not going to shoot Bolsa.  

For my money this not a difference of interpretation, but rather a difference of approach.  Some of us take what is given--Mike said "Do it" when Nacho had a gun pointed a Bolsa's head, therefore Mike wanted Nacho to shoot Bolsa.  Then there are those who apply their own logic and sensibilities to a scene and interpreting things accordingly--it would have been stupid for Nacho to shoot Bolsa, and since Mike is not stupid he would have wanted Nacho to not shoot Bolsa.  

I am not going to say that one approach is better than another.  I just happen to be in the "Take what is given camp", and have been since I started posting at this site's predecessor in 2006. 

Thanks for this post. I'm new to commenting here and have only participated in one other show thread. I have been a long time lurker though and did read at the predecessor too.
I'm in your camp....if actions are clearly spelled out on the screen then I accept them as seen. Any more ambiguous scenes and dialogue are welcome candidates for interesting analysis.
This situation however is reminding me of the early years of the Walking Dead series and the old forum (and "camp-dinner-bell"!). I remember complaints back then about some situations not making sense as if too much had been trimmed from episodes during editing. For me this BCS episode had holes in it too.

Edited April 30, 2022 by Melonie77
edited for clarity

[Adiba]

I don’t have much to add to the great discussion here regarding Mike’s “Do it,” except that I, too, took it at face value at first. I am open to the different interpretations suggested here, though— so now I don’t know what to think. Not that it really matters, what’s done is done. 
I can only imagine what goes on it the writers’ minds when creating the story— is there one writer per episode or is there a collaboration? 

[scenario]

1 hour ago, Melonie77 said:

I wish you had stated that you rewatched it sooner. I thought I was debating with someone that did not remember exactly how the scene had played out. Instead it feels as if it may not be ok for me to disagree.

Thanks for this post. I'm new to commenting here and have only participated in one other show thread. I have been a long time lurker though and did read at the predecessor too. I'm in your camp....which reminds me of when I first started reading tv forums - "camp-dinner-bell" and the early years of the Walking Dead series.

I just watched the scene again. It was ambiguous. When Mike said do it, he could have been talking to the guards to shoot Nacho also. That way he wouldn't have to and maybe they'll miss and kill the wrong guy and his people will be innocent.  

[Dev F]

3 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

Nacho had the gun to Bolsa's head for 22 seconds, including 12 seconds before Mike's made his utterance.  If Mike did not want Nacho to shoot Bolsa, he would not have said "Do it", he would have said "Don't do it".

Only if he believed that Nacho might actually shoot Bolsa, which I don't think he did, because that would've been insane and of no value to anyone. The only one who might just kill Bolsa for shits and giggles is the vengeful turncoat Nacho was pretending to be, but unlike the Salamancas and Bolsa himself, Mike knew that was a pose.

Thus, Mike also knew that by holding a gun to Bolsa's head, Nacho was just stalling. By "Do it" I think he just meant stop fucking around and do the plan we talked about -- act like he's trying to run away so Gus's men can put him down cleanly. He wasn't expecting him to shoot himself in the head instead.

Edited April 30, 2022 by Dev F

[Ed-]

3 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

44:12 - Nacho stabs Bolsa
44:13 - Nacho grabs Bolsa's gun
44:14 - Nacho grabs Bolsa and puts the gun to Bolsa's head
44:26 - Mike says "Do it"
44:34 - Mike raises his head such that he is no longer looking through the rifle scope
44:36 - Nacho shoots himself

There was a theory here that Mike could have taken everyone out right there and then. I think Mike had calculated the chances as slim or 50:50 at best. 

If Nacho shot Bolsa, it would have probably resulted in a chaotic firefight that would have tipped the scales in Nacho's and Mike's favor. Mike would have joined in and finished off the last ones standing. 

5 hours ago, gallimaufry said:

Here's another avenue for it to blow up for Jimmy: what if he does try to do the right thing and try to make some deal with Ericsen?  Once he's opened that door, I can see her sympathetic approach evaporating fast leaving him really high and dry and needing to pivot hard into the "criminal lawyer" schtick to justify to the cartel that he's, in fact, not a rat.  I don't see this happening but I do feel there are going to be some times in this where we zag where we expect to zig.

I like this theory.

[Lonesome Rhodes]

The ambiguity of Mike's Nike urging is a fun contemplation.  Given that Mike only had a single shot weapon requiring re-loads, and then time-consuming aims, it is difficult for me to accept that he thought he could take out the enemies quickly enough.  The chaos was way too fraught with too many bad variables.  That he lifted his head when he did tells me that he realized Nacho was going to perform as planned. 

If TPTB wanted to set Ignacio up as a Christ figure, I understand (Mando's words strongly suggest that is the case) but, I say that was a mistake.  I can make a heckuva a moral case that the greatest good would have been for Nacho to take out the maximum amount of evil.  Willfully taking himself out took away a potentially significant soldier for good.

His papa was intent on doing right, regardless the consequences to his son and to himself.  He was taking a martyr's stance.  Who was Nacho, or anyone else, to work towards precluding that result?  The Good Book warns again and again and again to not worry so much about preserving this life, but to be ever mindful of the next one.  Nacho's choices at the end were exactly backwards in this crucial context.

[qtpye]

5 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

People on TV often have few friends because they don't have time to develop that many relationships on screen, so I often don't pay attention to suggestions they're weird for not having any unless it's pointed out as a thing.

So it doesn't kind of stand out when someone has friends--like Jesse had Badger and Skinny Pete. And I'd say Hank and Gomie were friends. I can't remember if there were more relationships that were strictly about friendships.

People on tv shows always seem like they have no friends and then when it comes time for a party then the house is packed with people you have never seen before.

BB started off with an unwanted surprise party for Walter that bizarrely enough contained a lot of his brother-in -law's coworkers.

5 hours ago, Dessert said:

There were definitely friends in Breaking Bad. They weren’t given their own storylines, but they were there to show that Jesse, Hank, and Marie had a social lives and we’re part of a community. Walt and, eventually Skylar, were isolated by their secrets and lying. 
 

I don’t agree that a few scenes with friends are a waste of time. I can think of many shows that depicted people with friends - the Sopranos comes to mind. It depends on the type of show. Police procedural, for instance, may not dwell on the private lives of the policemen or lawyers.

I think isolation and loneliness are intentional themes in Better Call Saul. 

I think Tony's friends were mostly people that worked for him in the Mob, so actually more like his subordinate employees. Ironically, his closest friend was probably Big Pussy. His toxic masculinity did not allow him to confide in his wife so that was one of the reasons he needed to see a therapist.

I do think the isolation in this show is deliberate to make the characters seem lonely and desperate.

I can imagine that Kim has a bunch of associates that respect her from her profession and law school but few close friends. Kim also totally cut off her past (maybe for good reasons) so she does not seem to keep in touch with BFFs from back home. She seems like an introvert.

Jimmy is more of a mystery. That guy is usually the life of the party and would have tons of people always calling him up. I can imagine him being both quite popular but also have very few "close friends" if that makes sense.

 

[anoninrva]

On 4/28/2022 at 10:53 PM, chick binewski said:

I think some of us (myself included) have different ideas of the dynamics of HHM pre-BCS. Pre-illness (and for some time after), Howard clearly deferred to Chuck and to me it really felt out of necessity. He was the legal mind who tackled these enormous cases and had the reputation. I extrapolated that into Howard not getting any support from the partners to act aggressively with Chuck. 

Howard was the salesman and correct or not firms like that need Howards. Chuck was the one who would not see a doctor and/or give HHM any kind of real idea what they could expect of him. Howard presented himself as supportive but did not push for a buyout possibly out of fear, but also bc it would have been an enormous cost to push out a key member of the firm who was basically on sick leave.

Howard's dad was the other Hamlin of HHM.  He's deceased before the show starts, meaning only Howard and Chuck were the senior "named" partners of the firm.  I'd imagine that would carry much more weight than any other partner, but I'll freely admit I don't know how that works.   https://breakingbad.fandom.com/wiki/Hamlin,_Hamlin_%26_McGill

[Constantinople]

6 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

I am not going to say that one approach is better than another.  I just happen to be in the "Take what is given camp", and have been since I started posting at this site's predecessor in 2006. 

I think it's worth noting that as good as the creative team behind BCS and BB is, sometimes unintended ambiguity rears its head. There was a great debate about what happened in the final scene of Season 3 of Breaking Bad, which was written and directed by Vince Gilligan. That debate was settled at the start of Season 4, but at some point he admitted that scene was open to interpretation due to how they shot it even though that was not his intent.

[gallimaufry]

My hunch with "Do it" is that it's meant to play in the moment like it's a plan they have which might include killing Bolsa but in retrospect I think we're meant to assume it means kill himself.  This saves either Mike or Tyrus from being exposed to the Salamancas' wrath for killing Nacho, and ensures a much cleaner shot.

[PeterPirate]

3 hours ago, Constantinople said:

I think it's worth noting that as good as the creative team behind BCS and BB is, sometimes unintended ambiguity rears its head. There was a great debate about what happened in the final scene of Season 3 of Breaking Bad, which was written and directed by Vince Gilligan. That debate was settled at the start of Season 4, but at some point he admitted that scene was open to interpretation due to how they shot it even though that was not his intent.

For sure there is ambiguity about Gus' "Do it".  I had to spend about 10 minutes of navel gazing to come up with a plausible reason why Gus wanted Nacho to shoot Bolsa. 

But at least this show's creators bring a healthy dose of self-deprecation to the creation process and the way they interact with the fandom.  Here is a story about how this website's predecessor got a boost when another show creator was not as humble.  

The long back story of Aaron Sorkin, West Wing, Televisionwithoutpity and the "U.S. Poet Laureate" episode

 

[MaryPatShelby]

I kept thinking throughout that Nacho was going to be OK, because of the line in Breaking Bad when Saul asks "Did Nacho send you?"

I have been totally uninterested in the cartel/drug storyline for many episodes, except for Michael Mando's compelling performance. Now there's not even that, which makes me wonder if I'm done with this show. 

 

[scenario]

21 minutes ago, MaryPatShelby said:

I kept thinking throughout that Nacho was going to be OK, because of the line in Breaking Bad when Saul asks "Did Nacho send you?"

I have been totally uninterested in the cartel/drug storyline for many episodes, except for Michael Mando's compelling performance. Now there's not even that, which makes me wonder if I'm done with this show. 

 

That's sad but doesn't surprise me. IMO, with a few exceptions, the better the show, the more narrowly focused it is and the fewer people would like it. Most people in this thread consider BB to be a very good show, but during most of its run it averaged less than 2 million viewers an episode when an average show on network TV had closer to 5 million viewers. 

A lot of TV viewers today would consider BCS to be glacially slow because they can go more than 5 minutes without a gunfight, or a car chase or sex scene. (Exaugurated for effect.) 

BCS would never make it on network TV. It is too expensive, too slow, has too few episodes and takes to long to produce. It just wouldn't have enough viewers for it to be worth their while. 

[MaryPatShelby]

11 minutes ago, scenario said:

That's sad but doesn't surprise me. IMO, with a few exceptions, the better the show, the more narrowly focused it is and the fewer people would like it. Most people in this thread consider BB to be a very good show, but during most of its run it averaged less than 2 million viewers an episode when an average show on network TV had closer to 5 million viewers. 

A lot of TV viewers today would consider BCS to be glacially slow because they can go more than 5 minutes without a gunfight, or a car chase or sex scene. (Exaugurated for effect.) 

BCS would never make it on network TV. It is too expensive, too slow, has too few episodes and takes to long to produce. It just wouldn't have enough viewers for it to be worth their while. 

I didn't say it was slow; for me, the transformation into almost a pure BB prequel hasn't been what I was looking for in the show. I'm in it for Jimmy and Kim. 

[Penman61]

2 hours ago, MaryPatShelby said:

I kept thinking throughout that Nacho was going to be OK, because of the line in Breaking Bad when Saul asks "Did Nacho send you?"

I have been totally uninterested in the cartel/drug storyline for many episodes, except for Michael Mando's compelling performance. Now there's not even that, which makes me wonder if I'm done with this show. 

 

Saul's lines in BB are "It wasn't me! It was Ignacio [Nacho]! Did Lalo send you?"

ETA: I'm not just picking nits here, since these lines are (if memory serves) the only mention of these two major BCS characters in BB, so we know the BCS writers eventually have to construct their stories to fit these BB lines. So exactly what Saul says matters.

Edited April 30, 2022 by Penman61

[peeayebee]

10 hours ago, Constantinople said:

I think it's worth noting that as good as the creative team behind BCS and BB is, sometimes unintended ambiguity rears its head. There was a great debate about what happened in the final scene of Season 3 of Breaking Bad, which was written and directed by Vince Gilligan. That debate was settled at the start of Season 4, but at some point he admitted that scene was open to interpretation due to how they shot it even though that was not his intent.

I remember that. Gilligan thought he was just doing a cool camera shot. 

 

 

[Milburn Stone]

On 4/25/2022 at 9:23 PM, UGAmp said:

I think that’s the saddest I’ve ever said the word “Nacho” in my entire life. 

Me too, except when someone is eating nachos in front of me at the movie.

[margol29]

You have to give Mark Margolis his due. He said more with his facial expressions than 20 lines of dialog.

[Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, Penman61 said:

Saul's lines in BB are "It wasn't me! It was Ignacio [Nacho]! Did Lalo send you?"

ETA: I'm not just picking nits here, since these lines are (if memory serves) the only mention of these two major BCS characters in BB, so we know the BCS writers eventually have to construct their stories to fit these BB lines. So exactly what Saul says matters.

Saul may never have been told that Nacho was dead. I think people are putting too much weight on what Saul said in BB. 🤷‍♀️

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, Cinnabon said:

Saul may never have been told that Nacho was dead. I think people are putting too much weight on what Saul said in BB. 🤷‍♀️

I feel like it's hard to put too much weight on it since the characters basically exist completely because of that one line.