S06.E03: Rock and Hard Place

[PeterPirate]

59 minutes ago, Bannon said:

When he allows Chuck to function as a semi involved senior partner, despite being in the depths of obviously severe mental illness, to the point of allowing clients records to be kept in an obviously unsecured fire hazard, he not only is failing the other partners and employees, but utterly failing his responsibilities to the clients themselves. 

The presumes that Howard had the authority to keep Chuck completely away from the firm. 

When Howard first informed Chuck that Kim had snagged Mesa Verde account, Chuck said "She's out of the doghouse, I assume". to which Howard replied "We'll see".  But later in the episode Chuck spoke to Kim about getting her out of the Cornfield, and that's what happened.   Howard was clearly upset by this turn of events, indicating that he did not restore Kim just because Chuck asked him to do so, but because Chuck had leverage. 

Add to this the fact that Howard had to take on a significant amount of personal debt in order to buy Chuck out.   (Sidenote:  I find it odd that Howard was able to simply hand a check to Chuck and buy him out without Chuck's consent.)

So my take is that Howard's authority was conditional at best and relied on the consent of other partners at the firm.  And that Chuck had enough amount of influence with them to effect change when he so desired.  Regardless of what I think about his decision to send Kim to the Cornfield, I see him as a person who is trying to navigate a difficult and murky corporate situation.  

Edited April 28, 2022 by PeterPirate

[Cinnabon]

So Gus’s people are the ones who caught Nacho and brought him in (according to their story.) I wasn’t aware Gus had people in Mexico. Where is this road that leads to and from Mexico without any oversight from border patrol? 

[scenario]

I think that Howard is more of a symbol to Kim than a person. She hates him because he's the symbol of what she hates. We don't know yet what is causing this hatred. Something really bad happened to her in the past and we'll find out what later.

[Cinnabon]

5 minutes ago, scenario said:

I think that Howard is more of a symbol to Kim than a person. She hates him because he's the symbol of what she hates. We don't know yet what is causing this hatred. Something really bad happened to her in the past and we'll find out what later.

IDK - he is a symbol for what many people hate. I don’t think something truly awful has to happen to someone personally for them to feel that way. But Kim is taking that hatred even further, and that’s the difference. Is it just because she can? (With Jimmy’s help) Because she sees it as the only way to get the money she needs to be able to fund her pro bono career? (By forcing the settlement) 

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, PeterPirate said:

The presumes that Howard had the authority to keep Chuck completely away from the firm. 

When Howard first informed Chuck that Kim had snagged Mesa Verde account, Chuck said "She's out of the doghouse, I assume". to which Howard replied "We'll see".  But later in the episode Chuck spoke to Kim about getting her out of the Cornfield, and that's what happened.   Howard was clearly upset by this turn of events, indicating that he did not restore Kim just because Chuck asked him to do so, but because Chuck had leverage. 

Add to this the fact that Howard had to take on a significant amount of personal debt in order to buy Chuck out.   (Sidenote:  I find it odd that Howard was able to simply hand a check to Chuck and buy him out without Chuck's consent.)

So my take is that Howard's authority was conditional at best and relied on the consent of other partners at the firm.  And that Chuck had enough amount of influence with them to effect change when he so desired.  Regardless of what I think about his decision to send Kim to the Cornfield, I see him as a person who is trying to navigate a difficult and murky corporate situation.  

It's not odd at all that an agreement be in place that allows partners to buy each other out at a predetermined price, without further consent, which increases over time. We know Howard had been trying to negotiate a lower price, and "Hey, I didn't want to take on the debt needed to buy out my partner" is not an adequate response to "Why did you not take every available method to prevent your obviously mentally ill partner from exercising his authority in an impaired state, including keeping clients' records in an inadequately secured fire hazard?".  The fact that Howard finally pulled the trigger when the firm's interests were threatened sufficiently  by the malpractice insurance premium rate increase is just proof that Howard had been woefully neglect in protecting HHM's clients' interests. The insurance company just forced Howard to face reality. 

Edited April 28, 2022 by Bannon

[scenario]

Just now, Cinnabon said:

IDK - he is a symbol for what many people hate. I don’t think something truly awful has to happen to someone personally for them to feel that way. But Kim is taking that hatred even further, and that’s the difference. Is it just because she can? (With Jimmy’s help) Because she sees it as the only way to get the money she needs to be able to fund her pro bono career? (By forcing the settlement) 

She has reason to hate him personally but to hate him that much, there has to be a lot of rage inside of her that he's somehow unleashed. 

[Bannon]

2 minutes ago, Bannon said:

 

misplaced

Edited April 28, 2022 by Bannon

[scenario]

1 minute ago, Bannon said:

It's not odd at all that an agreement be in place that allows partners to buy each other out at a predetermined price, without further consent, which increases over time. We know Howard had been trying to negotiate a lower price, and "Hey, I didn't want to take on the debt needed to buy out my partner" is not an adequate response to "Why did you not take every available method to prevent your obviously mentally ill partner from exercising his authority in an impaired state, including keeping clients' records in an inadequately secured fire hazard".  The fact that Howard finally pulled the trigger when the firm's interests were threatened sufficiently  by the malpractice insurance premium rate increase is just proof that Howard had been woefully neglect in protecting HHM's clients' interests. The insurance company just forced Howard to face reality. 

Putting things off until the roof is about to fall in is a common trait in the business world. There are lots and lots of examples of companies in dying industries doing little or nothing to help themselves and being totally shocked when they go out of business. 

In the original version of the term conservative, it implied a person who hates to change. The system was working well for years and Howard didn't want to change it. 

Howard's behavior is foolish and short sighted and also very, very common in the real world. 

[Cinnabon]

1 minute ago, scenario said:

She has reason to hate him personally but to hate him that much, there has to be a lot of rage inside of her that he's somehow unleashed. 

I would agree if she was trying to kill him, but it’s still unclear to me exactly how far she’ll go. If Cliff is motivated to settle the Sandpiper lawsuit soon due to their hijinks, will it end there? 

[scenario]

1 minute ago, Cinnabon said:

I would agree if she was trying to kill him, but it’s still unclear to me exactly how far she’ll go. If Cliff is motivated to settle the Sandpiper lawsuit soon due to their hijinks, will it end there? 

That's what we'll find out. Kim is looking more and more like a person on a futile self destructive quest for some ill defined moral reason that even she doesn't really understand. 

[Cinnabon]

Just now, scenario said:

That's what we'll find out. Kim is looking more and more like a person on a futile self destructive quest for some ill defined moral reason that even she doesn't really understand. 

Any idea what’s going on with Howard’s car? I am completely confused as to what the plan is there.

[Bannon]

1 minute ago, scenario said:

Putting things off until the roof is about to fall in is a common trait in the business world. There are lots and lots of examples of companies in dying industries doing little or nothing to help themselves and being totally shocked when they go out of business. 

In the original version of the term conservative, it implied a person who hates to change. The system was working well for years and Howard didn't want to change it. 

Howard's behavior is foolish and short sighted and also very, very common in the real world. 

Of course. Howard's highly renumerated incompetence and neglect is not particularly unusual at all. That doesn't make it less contemptible, especially for a HHM employee or client.

[scenario]

Just now, Cinnabon said:

Any idea what’s going on with Howard’s car? I am completely confused as to what the plan is there.

I'm guessing that his car will be spotted somewhere it shouldn't be. Perhaps someone in that car buy's drugs in a bad section of town and the license plate gets noticed by the police. That would go in with the planting drugs. 

[Bannon]

1 minute ago, Cinnabon said:

Any idea what’s going on with Howard’s car? I am completely confused as to what the plan is there.

My guess is that the two jerks known as Saul and Kim are going to plant drugs in it, and set Howard up for his car to be searched by police. It's a little tricky, because Howard's a lawyer, not a layman ignorant of his 4th Amendment rights.

[scenario]

15 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Of course. Howard's highly renumerated incompetence and neglect is not particularly unusual at all. That doesn't make it less contemptible, especially for a HHM employee or client.

I'm in absolute agreement there. It's so common place now. And in most big companies today, any employee who tries to point it out would be risking their jobs because upper management tends to rally around the flag and refuse to look at reality until they are forced to. 

10 minutes ago, Bannon said:

My guess is that the two jerks known as Saul and Kim are going to plant drugs in it, and set Howard up for his car to be searched by police. It's a little tricky, because Howard's a lawyer, not a layman ignorant of his 4th Amendment rights.

It might not be that straight forward because Kim did say there wouldn't be enough evidence to convict him. If they found actual drugs in his possession, that would be evidence. Also, weren't they originally going to make a copy of the car and that would mean they don't expect Howard to be in it. 

Edited April 28, 2022 by scenario

[peeayebee]

43 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

So Gus’s people are the ones who caught Nacho and brought him in (according to their story.) I wasn’t aware Gus had people in Mexico. Where is this road that leads to and from Mexico without any oversight from border patrol? 

We saw Nacho smuggled into the building (when Mike removed the floor panels in the truck trailer). And people are smuggled across the border all the time. Gus's people bringing Nacho back from Mexico wouldn't have raised any red flags with Hector.

 

5 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Any idea what’s going on with Howard’s car? I am completely confused as to what the plan is there.

I would just say, we're not supposed to know yet. We can speculate, but I plan on just sitting back and enjoying the reveal.

[Bannon]

1 minute ago, scenario said:

I'm in absolute agreement there. It's so common place now. And in most big companies today, any employee who tries to point it out would be risking their jobs because upper management tends to rally around the flag and refuse to look at reality until they are forced to. 

Absolutely. The frequency with which the principle, of the people receiving the largest financial reward being held most accountable for standards of performance, is abandoned, is pretty disgusting.

[PeterPirate]

10 minutes ago, scenario said:

I'm in absolute agreement there. It's so common place now. And in most big companies today, any employee who tries to point it out would be risking their jobs because upper management tends to rally around the flag and refuse to look at reality until they are forced to. 

But that leads to the question about who really was "upper management" at HHM.  Suppose Howard didn't have the financial wherewithal to buy Chuck out.  Would he still be responsible for what was going on?  

This is not to say that I think Howard was right to enable Chuck and let him take work product home.  Just that I see Howard as another person who was between a rock and a hard place. 

Edited April 28, 2022 by PeterPirate

[Cinnabon]

15 minutes ago, Bannon said:

 

 

12 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

We saw Nacho smuggled into the building (when Mike removed the floor panels in the truck trailer). And people are smuggled across the border all the time. Gus's people bringing Nacho back from Mexico wouldn't have raised any red flags with Hector.

 

I would just say, we're not supposed to know yet. We can speculate, but I plan on just sitting back and enjoying the reveal.

Yes, but is the story that Gus sent people over the border when he heard about the attack on Lalo’s compound? Even though the cousins and the Federales were already out searching for Nacho? And how are they all crossing the border so easily? 

Edited April 28, 2022 by Cinnabon

[Bannon]

1 minute ago, PeterPirate said:

But that leads to the question about who really was "upper management" at HHM.  Suppose Howard didn't have the financial wherewithal to buy Chuck out.  Would he still be responsible for what was going on?  

This is not to say that Howard was right to enable Chuck and let him take work product home.  Just that I see Howard as another person who was between a rock and a hard place. 

Howard did have the financial wherewithal to buy Chuck out. He just didn't want to do it, until the insurance company made him stop being neglectful.

[scenario]

2 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

But that leads to the question about who really was "upper management" at HHM.  Suppose Howard didn't have the financial wherewithal to buy Chuck out.  Would he still be responsible for what was going on?  

This is not to say that I think Howard was right to enable Chuck and let him take work product home.  Just that I see Howard as another person who was between a rock and a hard place. 

Howard could have stood up to Chuck at any moment but it would have cost him. It could have ended up in a power struggle with half of his people supporting him and half supporting Chuck tearing the company in apart in the process. Howard didn't want to take a chance until he was forced into it. 

[Cinnabon]

7 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Absolutely. The frequency with which the principle, of the people receiving the largest financial reward being held most accountable for standards of performance, is abandoned, is pretty disgusting.

Yep. The IRS rarely focuses on auditing big corporations, either. Because it’s easier to investigate low and middle income citizens. And who gets the bailouts? None of it is fair. 

[aghst]

Lalo is supposedly looking for proof, as Hector demanded.

He'll probably show up and say he doesn't believe it was the Peruvians or whomever Nacho accused before he died.

Mike's probably going to have to try to protect Nacho's father.  But a podcast reminded me that Nacho tried to get his father to move away and he refused, just said to tell the police.

 

[scenario]

Just now, Cinnabon said:

Yep. The IRS rarely focuses on auditing big corporations, either. Because it’s easier to investigate low and middle income citizens. And who gets the bailouts? None of it is fair. 

It's not fair now. It never was. The fact that there are laws only helps so much. 

1 minute ago, aghst said:

Lalo is supposedly looking for proof, as Hector demanded.

He'll probably show up and say he doesn't believe it was the Peruvians or whomever Nacho accused before he died.

Mike's probably going to have to try to protect Nacho's father.  But a podcast reminded me that Nacho tried to get his father to move away and he refused, just said to tell the police.

 

Nacho did the best he could to get Gus off the hook and hope that Mike will have enough of a free hand to help Nacho's father. He knew at the end, his father was in deep trouble and there was no way out. He played his only possible chance to save his dad. 

[PeterPirate]

3 minutes ago, scenario said:

Howard could have stood up to Chuck at any moment but it would have cost him. It could have ended up in a power struggle with half of his people supporting him and half supporting Chuck tearing the company in apart in the process. Howard didn't want to take a chance until he was forced into it. 

Absolutely.  Howard had to weigh the cost-to-benefit ratio of standing up to Chuck and not standing up.  The cost of buying Chuck out was $3 million, which was a very substantial amount of risk for Howard to take.  

Sidenote:  It was Chuck suing HHM, not the insurance rate increase, that was the final straw for Howard.  

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, PeterPirate said:

But that leads to the question about who really was "upper management" at HHM.  Suppose Howard didn't have the financial wherewithal to buy Chuck out.  Would he still be responsible for what was going on?  

This is not to say that Howard was right to enable Chuck and let him take work product home.  Just that I see Howard as another person who was between a rock and a hard place. 

To be clear, I'm not saying any of this would have been easy for Howard. Not at all. However, Howard's the one major character in this story who (A) is of sound mind, and (B) honest claims to have ethical and legal legitimacy, and (C) has a great deal of power and money. He has less excuse for failing to step up,  and doing what's right, compared to anybody else. It is true that his failings are tiny, compared to many of the miscreants that surround him, but still, he's the guy with the power, money, and position of societal prestige. If he falls short, that bill ought to be paid, which doesn't, of course, make Saul and Kim the rightful vigilante bill collectors.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Bannon

[aghst]

Man I lost track of all the Mesa Verde stuff.

The production schedule for this show just killed whatever narrative momentum it had.

IIRC, first season of BB was interrupted by a long writer's strike, which cut it short.  But when they aired it, there wasn't this big gap between seasons.  Sure we had the pandemic but I think Odenkirk and others had major outside projects which caused them to delay production.

[scenario]

2 minutes ago, aghst said:

Man I lost track of all the Mesa Verde stuff.

The production schedule for this show just killed whatever narrative momentum it had.

IIRC, first season of BB was interrupted by a long writer's strike, which cut it short.  But when they aired it, there wasn't this big gap between seasons.  Sure we had the pandemic but I think Odenkirk and others had major outside projects which caused them to delay production.

Odenkirk's medical issues didn't help, I'm sure. Plus actors can't sit around for months waiting for the next season to start filming. That's one of the disadvantages of 10 episode seasons. When seasons were 26 episodes of a series was standard, they were a full time job. The season ended and the new season started filming a few weeks or maybe a month or two later. Now they film the entire year in a few months and then have to wait 8 or 10 months for the next season to start so of course most of them take other projects. 

[Bannon]

2 minutes ago, aghst said:

Man I lost track of all the Mesa Verde stuff.

The production schedule for this show just killed whatever narrative momentum it had.

IIRC, first season of BB was interrupted by a long writer's strike, which cut it short.  But when they aired it, there wasn't this big gap between seasons.  Sure we had the pandemic but I think Odenkirk and others had major outside projects which caused them to delay production.

They were about to start shooting season 6 when the pandemic shut down New Mexico film production. It was about a year before it opened back up again. Then Odenkirk has a heart attack (thank goodness he was lucky and he was with people when it happened), which I think tacked on 2-3 months to the production schedule. I'm sure it was a grind for everyone. Seems to have worked out, fortunately.

[Lonesome Rhodes]

IIRC, HHM was very cash poor at the outset of the series.  That made a buyout for Chuck quite problematic for all partners and equity holders concerned.  I could be way off.

I got the feeling in these early season eps that the financial and professional ruin of Howard was the goal.  A fate worse than prison for Howard?  I think this may be why Cliff is such a key here.  He could put the word out that Howard, and thereby HHM, was to be ostracized in legal circles.  None of this would require criminal proof, which is certainly more difficult to come by. 

[Bannon]

1 minute ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

IIRC, HHM was very cash poor at the outset of the series.  That made a buyout for Chuck quite problematic for all partners and equity holders concerned.  I could be way off.

I got the feeling in these early season eps that the financial and professional ruin of Howard was the goal.  A fate worse than prison for Howard?  I think this may be why Cliff is such a key here.  He could put the word out that Howard, and thereby HHM, was to be ostracized in legal circles.  None of this would require criminal proof, which is certainly more difficult to come by. 

When push came to shove, Howard used his own financial resources, including his personal ability to borrow, not the firm's resources, to buy Chuck out. It speaks very well of Howard that he took on the risk personally, and didn't expose his other partners, or HHM's employees. He should have stepped up much sooner, however.

[PeterPirate]

1 hour ago, aghst said:

Man I lost track of all the Mesa Verde stuff.

The production schedule for this show just killed whatever narrative momentum it had.

IIRC, first season of BB was interrupted by a long writer's strike, which cut it short.  But when they aired it, there wasn't this big gap between seasonsA.  Sure we had the pandemic but I think Odenkirk and others had major outside projects which caused them to delay production.

As I recall, season 4 was also impacted because the show was not renewed until after season 3 ended.  This limited the writers' ability to craft the storylines, and some of the cast were less available.  Which is why so much time was spent on things like the construction arc.  

On the flip side, the show was renewed for its two final seasons before season 4 ended.  The pandemic notwithstanding, I am looking forward to a very well-crafted final season.  

[Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

IIRC, HHM was very cash poor at the outset of the series.  That made a buyout for Chuck quite problematic for all partners and equity holders concerned.  I could be way off.

I got the feeling in these early season eps that the financial and professional ruin of Howard was the goal.  A fate worse than prison for Howard?  I think this may be why Cliff is such a key here.  He could put the word out that Howard, and thereby HHM, was to be ostracized in legal circles.  None of this would require criminal proof, which is certainly more difficult to come by. 

If HHM fell, would Howard actually be destitute though? Even bankruptcies never seem to phase these types. They never end up on the streets like we little people would. 

Edited April 28, 2022 by Cinnabon

[Ellaria]

2 hours ago, scenario said:

That's what we'll find out. Kim is looking more and more like a person on a futile self destructive quest for some ill defined moral reason that even she doesn't really understand. 

Well said!! We don't understand much of Kim's motivations because it is likely that she doesn't...not fully, anyway. Rage, grief, anger need an outlet and perhaps she found that in Jimmy/Saul and the cartel connections.

IMO, Kim achieved a certain satisfaction in her contact with Lalo, both in the prison and in the standoff in the apartment. She understands the danger involved (the bullet hole in the coffee mug) and she certainly feared for JImmy's life when he was lost in the desert. However, she also knows that she convinced Lalo to walk away, not Jimmy.

Does she believe that she is smarter than everyone else? Possibly. She seems confident that they can pull off this plan of destruction on Howard. How far does this level of confidence take her? Maybe she is ready to become a "criminal" lawyer, too.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Ellaria Sand

[carrps]

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

Then Odenkirk has a heart attack (thank goodness he was lucky and he was with people when it happened)

To my knowledge, he was actually on set. He was very lucky.

[Bannon]

5 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Well said!! We don't understand much of Kim's motivations because it is likely that she doesn't...not fully, anyway. Rage, grief, anger need an outlet and perhaps she found that in Jimmy/Saul and the cartel connections.

IMO, Kim achieved a certain satisfaction in her contact with Lalo, both in the prison and in the standoff in the apartment. She understands the danger involved (the bullet hole in the coffee mug) and she certainly feared for JImmy's like when he was lost in the desert. However, she also knows that she convinced Lalo to walk away, not Jimmy.

Does she believe that she is smarter than everyone else? Possibly. She seems confident that they can pull off this plan of destruction on Howard. How far does this level of confidence take her? Maybe she is ready to become a "criminal" lawyer, too.

There have been many important developments in Kim's outlook, but I think you are correct that facing down Lalo, with literally everything at stake, was the final broken tether, that had tied Kim to a conventionally ethical path in life. She's gone now.

[Cinnabon]

Was there ever any chance of Nacho telling the police everything and  having the opportunity to go into the witness protection program? Is there a chance now for Jimmy to do that? (Obviously we know he doesn’t).

[scenario]

3 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Was there ever any chance of Nacho telling the police everything and  having the opportunity to go into the witness protection program? Is there a chance now for Jimmy to do that? (Obviously we know he doesn’t).

How much does Jimmy really know about the cartel? He was hired to do whatever he could to get criminals off the hook. What happens if he tells the police everything he knows and its not enough? 

[Bannon]

5 minutes ago, carrps said:

To my knowledge, he was actually on set. He was very lucky.

If he'd been alone in his trailer, he would have died. Such is the ranndomness upon which our very lives frequently end on, or continue on. Pretty sobering.

[Cinnabon]

Just now, scenario said:

How much does Jimmy really know about the cartel? He was hired to do whatever he could to get criminals off the hook. What happens if he tells the police everything he knows and its not enough? 

Good point. I bet Nacho would’ve had enough to get a witness protection program offer though. 

[Bannon]

6 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Was there ever any chance of Nacho telling the police everything and  having the opportunity to go into the witness protection program? Is there a chance now for Jimmy to do that? (Obviously we know he doesn’t).

There was, if his father had agreed to do so as well. His father would not, and Nacho was not going to leave his father to the tender mercies of his business associates.

[scenario]

1 minute ago, Cinnabon said:

Good point. I bet Nacho would’ve had enough to get a witness protection program offer though. 

If the cartel got a hint of what was going on, his father was dead. Either course was dangerous. Who knows how many cops the cartel has on its payroll. 

[Bannon]

Just now, scenario said:

If the cartel got a hint of what was going on, his father was dead. Either course was dangerous. Who knows how many cops the cartel has on its payroll. 

To get witness protection, you have to testify in open court. Nacho's father would have been dead in 5 minutes, if Nacho had testified, because Nacho's father would not accept witness protection for himself.

[Dev F]

2 hours ago, peeayebee said:

We saw Nacho smuggled into the building (when Mike removed the floor panels in the truck trailer). And people are smuggled across the border all the time. Gus's people bringing Nacho back from Mexico wouldn't have raised any red flags with Hector.

Yep, especially since Gus's operation has been put in charge of all smuggling in and out of Albuquerque. Even if some other cartel affiliate had found Nacho, Gus would still have been in charge of bringing him across the border to face Hector.

And, of course, the fact that Gus is in charge of moving all the cartel's product must mean he has reliable smugglers south of the border.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Dev F

[Bannon]

48 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Well said!! We don't understand much of Kim's motivations because it is likely that she doesn't...not fully, anyway. Rage, grief, anger need an outlet and perhaps she found that in Jimmy/Saul and the cartel connections.

IMO, Kim achieved a certain satisfaction in her contact with Lalo, both in the prison and in the standoff in the apartment. She understands the danger involved (the bullet hole in the coffee mug) and she certainly feared for JImmy's life when he was lost in the desert. However, she also knows that she convinced Lalo to walk away, not Jimmy.

Does she believe that she is smarter than everyone else? Possibly. She seems confident that they can pull off this plan of destruction on Howard. How far does this level of confidence take her? Maybe she is ready to become a "criminal" lawyer, too.

To folliow on, maybe it was a surging sense of power which was the "more" that Kim could or would not specifically describe in her interview with Schweikert, and besting Lalo, with the highest stakes in play, gave her that surging sense. What might she have experienced as a young person, which would have made her feel so powerless that the opposite feeling would be as addictive as Walter White's signature product?  To what lengths will she go, to jump up the effect, as addicts so often do? The answers to these questions may be pretty damned grim.

This also further explains her bottomless hatred of Howard, a man who made her feel powerless to further her career at HHM, no matter what she delivered, via sheer effort.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Bannon
further thought

[Ellaria]

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

There have been many important developments in Kim's outlook, but I think you are correct that facing down Lalo, with literally everything at stake, was the final broken tether, that had tied Kim to a conventionally ethical path in life. She's gone now.

Yes - I agree. She is on a different path now and it’s of her own choosing. She isn’t doing it to help Jimmy. She is doing it for Kim.

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

To folliow on, maybe it was a surging sense of power which was the "more" that Kim could or would not specifically describe in her interview with Schweikert, and besting Lalo, with the highest stakes in play, gave her that surging sense. What might she have experienced as a young person, which would have made her feel so powerless that the opposite feeling would be as addictive as Walter White's signature product?  To what lengths will she go, to jump up the effect, as addicts so often do? The answers to these questions may be pretty damned grim.

This also further explains her bottomless hatred of Howard, a man who made her feel powerless to further her career at HHM, no matter what she delivered, via sheer effort.

While I believe that there is much in Kim’s background that we don’t know, I am still not fully onboard with her “bottomless hatred of Howard.” I’m sure that we will see reasons for it and I’m sure that we will understand why Gilligan/Gould waited until the final hours to reveal it.

However, it is entirely possible that Kim’s motivations are not that different from those of Walter White. She starts with a sense of inferiority to people like Howard and their sense of privilege as well as an initial desire to protect someone she loves. Like Walter, I think that it will end with Kim admitting that she “did it for me. I liked it. I was good at it. And I was really alive.”

Kim’s desire to ruin Howard is less about Howard himself and more about Kim.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Ellaria Sand

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Yes - I agree. She is on a different path now and it’s of her own choosing. She isn’t doing it to help Jimmy. She is doing it for Kim.

While I believe that there is much in Kim’s background that we don’t know, I am still not fully onboard with her “bottomless hatred of Howard.” I’m sure that we will see reasons for it and I’m sure that we will understand why Gilligan/Gould waited until the final hours to reveal it.

However, it is entirely possible that Kim’s motivations are not that different from those of Walter White. She starts with a sense of inferiority to people like Howard and their sense of privilege as well as an initial desire to protect someone she loves. Like Walter, I think that it will end with Kim admitting that she “did it for me. I liked it. I was good at it. And I was really alive.”

Kim’s desire to ruin Howard is less about Howard himself and more about Kim.

So many subtle possibilities. They've got me hooked again!

[Melonie77]

10 hours ago, peeayebee said:

Michael Mando has said his was the only character in BCS to break good. I think after symbolically washing away his sins (after being submerged in oil and then washing himself off), he would not kill anyone again. Only himself, to save his father.

I like your theory - It's a good suggestion.😁
But I can't get past the idea that the writers were limited because all the characters in the scene are alive in BB. That knowledge makes me look at the scene differently and it then doesn't make as much sense to me.
A very angry Nacho was being forced to sacrifice himself and I think he would have wanted to at least take out Hector if the writer's weren't hobbled by the BB script.
I believe Mike was hoping Nacho would take out a Salamanca or two. 

But then again, if Nacho had shot at the others first it would have taken away from the shock of the immediate suicide. I'm just saying that this was an example (for me) of issues that can come up when writing for a prequel.

[scenario]

What happens if Nacho shoots Hector and his guards shoot Nacho but don't kill him? Now he's tortured and rat's out Gus. His father is definitely dead. 

[Melonie77]

1 minute ago, scenario said:

What happens if Nacho shoots Hector and his guards shoot Nacho but don't kill him? Now he's tortured and rat's out Gus. His father is definitely dead. 

I think they had Mike stationed at a distance in order to prevent Nacho from being tortured as well as to protect Gus' side from any unforeseen problems.