S01.E08: Tucked Up in Newport

[dmc]

4 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Tony award winner Michael Cerveris, of course!

Oh, you mean the character name. Ummm....no.

I met and used to be pen pals with  Michael Cerveris and I didn't even see him in this. 

[blackwing]

With respect to Raikes, if he really is indeed playing Marian because he just wants to make his mark on society... why her?  Her family isn't THAT rich or that notable, are they?  He was fixed up with a Schermerhorn at the music concert, who of course, is Mrs. Astor's family.  Wouldn't marrying a Schermerhorn be one of the ultimate goals of a rake who is just trying to hit it big?

57 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

So this week's token servant stories go to Jack and . . . the bald guy who is apparently George Russell's valet. Without checking imdb.com - can anyone tell me his name? Me neither. In fact there are still several servants whose names I do not know, which reflects how poorly these characters have been developed. Most of their stories have been confined to one episode; hopefully this baldie servant mystery will be resolved as quickly as George's legal troubles. 1

For what it's worth it didn't even occur to me the mystery woman might be baldie's daughter. He doesn't look old enough to have a child that old.

His name, of course, is Bald Servant Stalker!  Have we even seen a scene of him actually doing his job?  He's always depicted as stalking someone (now we found out who), or sitting at the kitchen table doing nothing.

I've always thought the job of a valet is kind of strange.  I get that ladies needed help buttoning their clothes at the back.  But why does a man need help?  I learned how to tie a tie myself and I'm fine.  Long before Gosford Park and Downton Abbey, I guess my only reference point to valets on TV was the episode of "Quantum Leap" where Sam leapt into a valet at the point where he's holding out some underwear in front of a butt naked guy who intones to him "you forgot the powder".  Really?  Men in Victorian times needed help putting their underwear on?

10 minutes ago, buttersister said:

And it appears as though the forum's spent more time decoding George's threat story than the writers did seeing it up.

But Berta spitting feathers? Carrie Coon!

I think this is a great fail of the episode.  Everyone is supposed to be talking about the gloriously hilarious scene where Bertha gets ignominiously shoved out of the house like a frat boy trying to escape his girlfriend's bedroom when he hears her angry father on the stairs.  And yet more discussion spent on the scene that didn't make much sense or warrant that amount of time.

I do wonder what Bertha thinks of all this now.  She wormed her way into an invitation with McAllister, thinks she is sitting pretty, and then abruptly and coldly realises how insignificant she is.

[ZaldamoWilder]

 

1 hour ago, izabella said:

The guy had been skimming money all along.  He was charging Russell full price for quality parts for the railroad, buying used parts or lesser quality, cheaper parts, and then pocketing the difference.  The letter that Russell wrote about his office redecoration was used to cover up that the guy was stealing/skimming and make it seem like Russell had been the one to order cheaper, substandard parts.

The guy and Miss Ainsley were working together, but they never intended to use the purloined letter for anything unless they got caught.  The only reason they got caught was there was an accident, and they discovered the substandard parts were used.  That's when they tried to save themselves by bringing forth the letter.

Each of you has explained this so thoroughly and yet, I too, take one last whack at this horse by asking, simply....why, but specifically for Miss Ainsley.  It's obvious that Dixon is covering his tracks (intnded :P) but before she's escorted to wherever by George's consigliare and he is berating her betrayal, he lists all the reasons she's a whole ass fool for what she did and I thought:  right!  why is she risking what had to be a plum job for anything on a Bloomies  house account?  Like damn show, we could've been led down a whole nother path with these two.  How do they even know each other, what's Ainsley's beef? does she keep copies of all his shit and she suddenly remembered this one at the time of the crash?  Are she and Dixon secretly related somehow?  I mean that was a real husbandly/famliar "shut up!" lol

Agnes and Armstrong.  Utter bullshit.   The woman has exactly one job.  She "trained" Peggy in how to deal with her correspondence in an hour.  Exactly how hard would it be to tell someone grateful to have a job of such station, look, I like big bustles and I cannot lie, I change four times a day so keep my shit ironed and your mouth shut.  That's not difficult at all, especially given that Agnes is hella direct and already doesn't rock with her.   This was her perfectly justifiable reason to excercise the principle on which she likes to stand.   Otherwise I smooth don't know what the "less" in heads have rolled for less, refers to.  Well bish get your bowling ball out, I wanna see it.   Bertha, who excused her ladies' maid for an offense paid to a woman who slights her.  Tuh!  Ok Gilded Age, Aunt Agnes ain't shit.  Got it.   

That lil girl followed a boy she don't even want.....across town.....on foot.....for miles?  Sally?  Sally Richardson MuthafuckinWhitfield?  girl getchoass in here and start making this shit make sense.   I need some why.   Damn.  

For some reason I want to stick a c in Mrs. Fisch's name.   Anyway, what a yenta, this one.  Who is her husband (try not to say Mr. Fish, I'll cut you), why is she such a weirdo, she doesn't seem to have business to attend at all.   That Newport cottage is everything though.  What does the husband do again? 

Peggy's baby is totally alive.  I'm struggling with her mom not struggling with her husband - even without knowing he hid the kid, the parts she is aware of are heinous enough.  But then I wouldn't get to see Audra McDonald.

The only thing bothering me about Marian's initial visit to Raikes' office is why not ask to see the Will.   It's crazy to me that he read? summarized? its contents and she never said lemme see what you're talking about.

14 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

I agree completely. 

I don't understand at all how Peggy who is so clever could fall in love a man who isn't educated. What could they discuss about? Was he so good in sex?

Plus, she is looking for the midwife to find the grave of her child but she isn't interested to find her (ex-)husband. So she doesn't care her any more but she doesn't think she made a mistake by eloping with him? 

Writing....?  I don't remember what Mr. Scott's business is but in telling the story to Carmen Miranda, she called him Elias; the boy she met while they were both employed by her father.   She said in the episode before last that he changed her life or was the love f her life or some such.  Girl I wish intellect and feelings were related.   Now the fact that she doesn't want to find him anymore is curious but remember that this is a guy whom despited his own feelings, gave in to her father.  If that's at the forefront of her memories about Elias, there might not be anything else (for her) to say to him.

Somebody last episode thread said something about the purse in that pickpocket kerfuffle at the train station in PA.   I'm glad it didn't have anything to do with Raikes.  Looks like it belonged to Ainsley.   Fun but unrelated fact, this is how pickpockets on NYC's underground railway still operate.  The weird part is it still works, folks turn to look at the "argument" every time.  

[dmc]

14 minutes ago, dmc said:

I met and used to be pen pals with  Michael Cerveris and I didn't even see him in this. 

 

14 minutes ago, dmc said:

  13 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Tony award winner Michael Cerveris, of course!

Oh, you mean the character name. Ummm....no.

Remember when I told you in the Euphoria forum that I went to a school with lavish productions and big drama department.  Every year there was a drama New York City trip.  It was really actually amazing. My teacher Ms. Martin would line up a week of Broadway shows for us to to and some off Broadway.  He was staring The Who's Tommy as Tommy.  After all of the shows, the actors and crew would come out and talk to us and answer questions.  

We also saw Damn Yankees and talked to Bebe Neuwirth and Victor Garber.

 

Its a pretty elaborate trip.  Michael came out to talk to us about his performance and acting.  He came over at some point to chat with my and my friend Holly and we exchanged addresses.  There were definitely some letters and it was a great experience to hear about working with a production.  

[blackwing]

Was there any mention of who is serving as Bertha's lady's maid?  That house seems to have a hundred servants so I'm sure that Mrs. Bruce just assigned somebody new.  But it would have been nice to have had a mention about it.  It doesn't seem to me that Bertha would dress herself.

Although, how come this new maid and Adelheid did not accompany Bertha and Gladys to Newport?  When Bertha went on that overnight trip to see Clara Barton, Turner went with her.  Do Bertha and Gladys not have their maids in Newport, or was it custom that they could just use the lady's maids at McAllister's house?

9 minutes ago, ZaldamoWilder said:

Writing....?  I don't remember what Mr. Scott's business is but in telling the story to Carmen Miranda, she called him Elias; the boy she met while they were both employed by her father.   She said in the episode before last that he changed her life or was the love f her life or some such.  Girl I wish intellect and feelings were related.   Now the fact that she doesn't want to find him anymore is curious but remember that this is a guy whom despited his own feelings, gave in to her father.  If that's at the forefront of her memories about Elias, there might not be anything else (for her) to say to him.

I believe Mr. Scott owns a pharmacy or drug store, and is apparently very successful.  I get that Peggy might not want to see her ex-husband, but he could at least have told her where the child is buried.  Or at least what he believes.  She is trying to track down the midwife for information, but wouldn't the husband have information too?  For all we know, the child is alive and living with the husband.  

 

 

[chaifan]

One thing that keeps bothering me is that the Dixon/George set up was discovered by accident.  By and large, the women on this show are utterly useless, except for social climbing/gatekeeping, and this was a chance to have one of them use their actual brain to save the day.  They could have had Ainsley not be part of the plot, but part of the solution - that she was the one who recognized that the "buy cheaper shit" memo was actually about the house decor, not the railway, and could prove it through her scrupulous record keeping.  Or something like that.  But, no, the day was saved because of some daffy woman shopping.  sheesh.

I mean, I know it's the 1890's, but for a show revolving mostly around women, women are portrayed rather poorly in the brains department.  Peggy is an exception, but her brains aren't really used for any plot purposes outside her job(s).  Ada actually seems rather intelligent, mostly self schooled through reading seemingly everything.  But, again, it's not used for anything.  Bertha is smart, but she uses it for social climbing, and she still makes a lot of stupid mistakes.  Aurora is probably the smartest of them all, not necessarily in education or IQ, but in using her brain to make sure her family is taken care of. 

Going back to comments about George's threatening of Ainsely...  I was ok with this.  It fits George's character of "cross me and I will absolutely ruin you in every way possible".  He lets everyone know that if they mess with him the consequences are going to be some real shit.  The one threat of his that did bother me was with Gladys's first beau.  (A few episodes ago.)  There was no reason to threaten to ruin his life.  I was really hoping that in that scene the beau would have said to  George, "Sir, there is no reason to make such threats to my career.  I am a man of honor.  If you would not provide your consent for me to marry your daughter, I would honor it as a sign of respect to you.  I do not need threats to respect your wishes as Gladys's father.  Good day."

[kristen111]

So, a baby boy is born by a Midwife with no record of birth.  The husband signs a paper relinquishing the marriage by force by Peggy’s father.  A great storyline for Peggy.  I’m happy.  The best story yet to come next season.   Enough of all the other bickering between upstairs and downstairs.

Edited March 15, 2022 by kristen111

[izabella]

9 minutes ago, blackwing said:

Was there any mention of who is serving as Bertha's lady's maid?  That house seems to have a hundred servants so I'm sure that Mrs. Bruce just assigned somebody new.  But it would have been nice to have had a mention about it.  It doesn't seem to me that Bertha would dress herself.

Although, how come this new maid and Adelheid did not accompany Bertha and Gladys to Newport?  When Bertha went on that overnight trip to see Clara Barton, Turner went with her.  Do Bertha and Gladys not have their maids in Newport, or was it custom that they could just use the lady's maids at McAllister's house?

I was wondering about that, too.  Bertha would need help pressing her clothes, fluffing her hat feathers, and fastening all the buttons and ties and strings on her corsets and dresses.  She would especially need someone to do her hair. 

[hoodooznoodooz]

Agnes has a lot of respect for Peggy. She should have given Peggy a bedroom upstairs and let her eat meals with her, Ada, and Marian.

[AZChristian]

30 minutes ago, blackwing said:

With respect to Raikes, if he really is indeed playing Marian because he just wants to make his mark on society... why her?  Her family isn't THAT rich or that notable, are they? 

The only person we know for a fact who has information about Marian's father's wealth is Raikes.  I see him using Marian as a chess piece (a pawn, not a queen).  IMO, she's rich enough through her father that if his only chance to advance himself financially is through marrying her, that will work for him.  But by using her as an entryway to greater money in New York, he also has a Plan B.

[dmc]

8 minutes ago, AZChristian said:

The only person we know for a fact who has information about Marian's father's wealth is Raikes.  I see him using Marian as a chess piece (a pawn, not a queen).  IMO, she's rich enough through her father that if his only chance to advance himself financially is through marrying her, that will work for him.  But by using her as an entryway to greater money in New York, he also has a Plan B.

I don't know this plot will be any more elaborate that he's a rogue that dumps Marian for a more profitable woman.  Remember these are the people that just gave us the George court plot.  

 

I just had a thought are the costume designers making Marian dowdy on purpose to show how easily it would be for her to end up like her aunts and further illustrate her need to breakaway with Raikes

Edited March 15, 2022 by dmc

[Sakura12]

Being uneducated doesn't mean someone is stupid. He could've been a smart guy who didn't have the means to get a proper education. Or he could've been really good looking and Peggy fell for that. Educated people can make stupid mistakes too especially when they are young. 

How old are these women supposed to be? Early 20's? The actresses are older. 

The whole George plot was rushed and not well thought out. Was it for us to spend more time with the boring Raike and Marion? His rush to marry her is suspect. I know people got married quick in those days but this is fast and she doesn't seem that into him as a person. Just someone to make her life less dull. What did she do in PA? Did she work there, did she have friends. Not only is the actress subpar the writing for her seems stuck on a character template without any depth. She's just there. 

Through our 21st century eyes we can see that someone is gay. In that time no one's first thought would go to that. It would be anything else. Even Aurora's remark was about McAllister not being interested in pursuing other women. They may have thoughts about him, but he is married and keeps his private life to himself. Most of them don't seem to spend much time with their spouses. They made the remarks about Mr. Astor being on his boat all the time and that Mrs. Astor never goes with him. 

I'm no big fan of the Russell's but their marriage is the only one that seems to be full of love and respect. 

 

[chaifan]

So here's the glitch I see in the "Marian's father was loaded and Raikes knew it" theory...

Marian's father has been established as someone who really really wanted to be wealthy.  He blew the family fortune a few times on bad business deals.  If he was really rich enough to make Raikes not interested in a relative of the Astors, he would have been living the grand lifestyle, not just "well to do".  And I don't see how he couldn't have known about his wealth, like not knowing the actual value of the railroad stock certificates Raikes mentioned.  His whole purpose in life was to be rich, how would he not know if he had stock in a valuable asset? 

I agree, something is up with Raikes.  I could see him using Marian for entry in the old money society.  But that didn't really work, and he somehow got himself in with the old money crowd anyways.  But I think the writers are going to have to do some major gymnastics to convince me old man Brooks had more money than the Astor relative, all without Marian knowing it.

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, chaifan said:

Marian's father has been established as someone who really really wanted to be wealthy.  He blew the family fortune a few times on bad business deals.  If he was really rich enough to make Raikes not interested in a relative of the Astors, he would have been living the grand lifestyle, not just "well to do".  And I don't see how he couldn't have known about his wealth, like not knowing the actual value of the railroad stock certificates Raikes mentioned.  His whole purpose in life was to be rich, how would he not know if he had stock in a valuable asset? 

 

Yes, this is how I feel too. We know for a fact that this guy spent his and his sisters' inheritence recklessly fast. It just seems unlikely that when a generation later, when his daughter is left in the exact same predicament, it's not true. When did the guy get good with money, iow? He'd have become a totally different person in secret.

Although there is the possibility that the stocks he had weren't as worthless as everyone thought because of some sudden change. Or maybe they could become valuable or something. That's the only way this guy would save money is if he didn't know he was doing it, it seems.

[Sarah 103]

3 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Although there is the possibility that the stocks he had weren't as worthless as everyone thought because of some sudden change. Or maybe they could become valuable or something. That's the only way this guy would save money is if he didn't know he was doing it, it seems.

To me this is the most plausible explanation. The stocks that he thought were worthless (and he was being honest at the time. When he made that statement, the stocks were worthless), but then something happens/changes and the stocks are suddenly valuable. 

[chaifan]

On 3/15/2022 at 3:11 PM, Sarah 103 said:

To me this is the most plausible explanation. The stocks that he thought were worthless (and he was being honest at the time. When he made that statement, the stocks were worthless), but then something happens/changes and the stocks are suddenly valuable. 

Yes, but it still has to be so valuable to be worth brushing off an Astor.  That would have to be one hell of a stack of "worthless" certificates. 

If they do go down this line, then I could see it this all coming full circle if the "worthless" certificates were for George's yet to be built train line.  Maybe Papa Brooks was an early investor, bought enough for a controlling share, and Raikes wants to take over the Russell corporation/empire. 

But then we have another problem....  It's pretty well established that Raikes told everyone Brooks was broke upon his death.  To come up with these certificates post-death, and withhold them from Marian, the only rightful heir, would very visibly and easily proven fraud.  Married women could hold property by the mid 1890's 1800's, those stocks would belong to Marian and would remain so even if she got married.  Even in 1890, no court would allow Raikes to keep that wealth if Marian wanted a divorce or annulment. 

So, Raikes would have to marry Marian, get her pregnant, kill her off after childbirth, produce the valuable certificates which would now be his.  I'm all for killing off Marian, but I think this is a bit farfetched for even Fellowes to come up with.

 

Edited March 17, 2022 by chaifan
Corrected 1890's to 1800's - women could own property by mid 1800's.

[Brian Cronin]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

For what it's worth it didn't even occur to me the mystery woman might be baldie's daughter. He doesn't look old enough to have a child that old.

Cerveris, like a lot of Broadway stars, just stays in really great shape so that they can play all ages (look how freakin' amazing Audra McDonald looks at 51), so it might surprise you to learn that he is 61, so he's definitely old enough to be her father.

[EtheltoTillie]

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

I've always thought the job of a valet is kind of strange.  I get that ladies needed help buttoning their clothes at the back.  But why does a man need help? 

I t

It's the shirt studs and other paraphernalia for the nightly black tie dinners.  I have to help my husband get into his tuxedo (which he wears once a year if that).  It needs several extra hands. 

[eejm]

2 minutes ago, EtheltoTillie said:

It's the shirt studs and other paraphernalia for the nightly black tie dinners.  I have to help my husband get into his tuxedo (which he wears once a year if that).  It needs several extra hands. 

Morgan Spector talked about this a little when he was on the podcast.  He said he got pretty good with the stud hook as time went on, but he needed help (at least at first).  

[Melina22]

1 hour ago, izabella said:

Bertha would need help pressing her clothes, fluffing her hat feathers, and fastening all the buttons and ties and strings on her corsets and dresses. 

I long for the good old days when I had a maid to fluff my hat feathers. 😁

1 hour ago, dmc said:

I just had a thought are the costume designers making Marian dowdy 

Someone else on this thread bemoaned Marian's awful outfits. Are we watching the same show? Marian might be a pill but I think her outfits are beautiful. I'm not usually a fan of yellow but the pale creamy yellow dresses look lovely on her, and she had a deep pink dress last episode that was absolutely gorgeous. Louisa has the perfect figure to show these off, tall and willowy. YMMV. 

[dmc]

2 minutes ago, Melina22 said:

I long for the good old days when I had a maid to fluff my hat feathers. 😁

Someone else on this thread bemoaned Marian's awful outfits. Are we watching the same show? Marian might be a pill but I think her outfits are beautiful. I'm not usually a fan of yellow but the pale creamy yellow dresses look lovely on her, and she had a deep pink dress last episode that was absolutely gorgeous. Louisa has the perfect figure to show these off, tall and willowy. YMMV. 

There’s an entire thread on Reddit and several comments here about how unflattering they are on her.  I don’t think it’s Louisa by any means.  But clearly the show agrees with you so maybe its just preference 

 

 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

8 hours ago, Haleth said:

He's as bad as Oliver.  She can't say she wasn't warned.

Who's Oliver?

[KarenX]

3 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Who's Oliver?

(Oscar)

[izabella]

7 hours ago, Melina22 said:

Someone else on this thread bemoaned Marian's awful outfits. Are we watching the same show? Marian might be a pill but I think her outfits are beautiful. I'm not usually a fan of yellow but the pale creamy yellow dresses look lovely on her, and she had a deep pink dress last episode that was absolutely gorgeous. Louisa has the perfect figure to show these off, tall and willowy. YMMV. 

I agree that Marian's dresses are lovely.  She's had some ugly hats, but her dresses are quite pretty, and I've liked almost all of them.  I will say that the yellow seems like an ingenue color, like Agnes Gladys or someone her age would wear.  But they are still quite beautiful.

I have noticed the lighting they use inside Agnes' house makes some of the colors change tone compared to the outside light.  I've had to stop a few times to verify that I was looking at the same dress! 

ETA - Because Agnes is not Gladys!

Edited March 16, 2022 by izabella

[ajsnaves]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Although there is the possibility that the stocks he had weren't as worthless as everyone thought because of some sudden change. Or maybe they could become valuable or something. That's the only way this guy would save money is if he didn't know he was doing it, it seems.

Maybe their value greatly increased when it was learned that said Railroad Company was building a new depot in New York City.  And then continued to increase when some petty ass old money aldermen decided to play games with head of the company, and then had their financial asses handed to them.  But they would not have been worthless when her father died, so it does not really make sense.  But I feel like this is where Lord Julian is going.

[Haleth]

28 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Who's Oliver?

Sorry. I meant Oscar. (Too early and not enough coffee.). 

[Roseanna]

2 hours ago, chaifan said:

One thing that keeps bothering me is that the Dixon/George set up was discovered by accident.  By and large, the women on this show are utterly useless, except for social climbing/gatekeeping, and this was a chance to have one of them use their actual brain to save the day.  They could have had Ainsley not be part of the plot, but part of the solution - that she was the one who recognized that the "buy cheaper shit" memo was actually about the house decor, not the railway, and could prove it through her scrupulous record keeping.  Or something like that.  But, no, the day was saved because of some daffy woman shopping.  sheesh.

I mean, I know it's the 1890's, but for a show revolving mostly around women, women are portrayed rather poorly in the brains department.  Peggy is an exception, but her brains aren't really used for any plot purposes outside her job(s).  Ada actually seems rather intelligent, mostly self schooled through reading seemingly everything.  But, again, it's not used for anything.  Bertha is smart, but she uses it for social climbing, and she still makes a lot of stupid mistakes.  Aurora is probably the smartest of them all, not necessarily in education or IQ, but in using her brain to make sure her family is taken care of. 

It's just that what angers me in this show as I have read biographies about women who at that time studied, worked, traveled, got modern ideas in so many fields. Of course they were still few but it was possible. 

I don't mean that every woman in this show should be such but at least not like Marian.

I hope that Peggy's leaving Agnes' house doesn't mean that she is leaving the show? 

As for if her child is alive, did she see the baby after birth or was she only told that it was born  dead?  

[Jordan Baker]

Did we learn in this episode that Agnes had lost a child (or children)? I'm referring to the scene in which Peggy revealed that her child had died. Either Agnes or Ada (or perhaps both) indicated that this was a subject with which Agnes was all too familiar.

Was this the first mention of Agnes's loss? I'm guessing having lost a child or children was meant to make Agnes even more sympathetic to Peggy. 

Agnes, who, in the previews, was seemingly meant to be the villain of this piece, has become more and more sympathetic (to me, anyway). Yes, she's a prig. But she's had a difficult life (marrying a horrid man, losing children, etc.) and she still has empathy in her own way. 

Or maybe it's just that Christine Baranski is such a good actress that she can make me root for Agnes.

It amuses me to remember that both she and Nathan Lane played Val's mother in The Birdcage.

[rollacoaster]

3 minutes ago, Jordan Baker said:

Agnes, who, in the previews, was seemingly meant to be the villain of this piece, has become more and more sympathetic (to me, anyway). Yes, she's a prig. But she's had a difficult life (marrying a horrid man, losing children, etc.) and she still has empathy in her own way. 

Or maybe it's just that Christine Baranski is such a good actress that she can make me root for Agnes.

Christine Baranski has done a fantastic job of rounding out Agnes' character. Agnes is a no-nonsense hard-ass, but can offer tender moments. 

[EtheltoTillie]

Yes, I think this was the first they mentioned Agnes's losing a child, and of course in best soap opera tradition there was not enough info.  As for Peggy, she said she almost died in childbirth, so it sounded like she may have been unconscious and anything could have happened. 

[RachelKM]

59 minutes ago, ajsnaves said:

Maybe their value greatly increased when it was learned that said Railroad Company was building a new depot in New York City.  And then continued to increase when some petty ass old money aldermen decided to play games with head of the company, and then had their financial asses handed to them.  But they would not have been worthless when her father died, so it does not really make sense.  But I feel like this is where Lord Julian is going.

This would be a kinda fun twist - Marian and her old money family restored because of New Money George Russell.  But, as you said, it wouldn't make much sense.  Raikes would have to be clairvoyant.  He came to NYC before any of the NY Depot shenanigan's began.  Unless Raikes, in is PA law practice, had an inside lane on upcoming zoning and construction petitions in NY and as to what was favored, he couldn't possibly have had any clue about the potential worth such stock. 

And honestly, if Fellowes turns him into some master planner of nefarious deeds after 8 straight episodes of showing him to be a blandly polite, tepid-charmed dolt who only seems passably intelligent in comparison to his even dimmer scene companion, the choice of Marian itself making him look like a card carrying idiot, it will be very annoying. 

Well maybe not very, but annoying. I can't care enough about him or Marian to get too worked up. But to the extent I will have a feeling or response to that storyline, that feeling will be annoyed. 

Like I said above, I'm now, with the least amount of energy I can expend, rooting for them to elope to a boring chapel, have a quick, efficient and appropriately boring ceremony, and then be rejected by society and settle into a boring, emotionally beige married life raising children off screen somewhere.

Edited March 15, 2022 by RachelKM

[Bulldog]

9 minutes ago, Jordan Baker said:

Did we learn in this episode that Agnes had lost a child (or children)?

Yes.  I assume she meant stillbirth or miscarriage, which I would assume was even more common back then.  Or maybe the child died after birth.  Walk thru any really old cemetery and you'll find a large number of child graves from this era. 

 

2 hours ago, izabella said:

fluffing her hat feathers,

And don't forget picking out the feathers from your hat that came from the butchered chicken you encountered when having to escape from a home to which you hadn't been invited. 

 

58 minutes ago, Melina22 said:

Someone else on this thread bemoaned Marian's awful outfits.

I sometimes wonder if the wardrobe people who dress Marian are the same ones who used to dress Scarlett on Nashville.  That wardrobe department had an ongoing vendetta against that poor girl which was unabated during the run of the show.   Would not surprise me if it were the same people.   

[RachelKM]

1 minute ago, Bulldog said:

Yes.  I assume she meant stillbirth or miscarriage, which I would assume was even more common back then.  Or maybe the child died after birth.  Walk thru any really old cemetery and you'll find a large number of child graves from this era. 

True. In the 1850s and 60s (around the time Agnes would have been having children), more than 40% of children didn't make it to age 5. And socio-economics had very little, if any, impact since a lot of it was the result of infectious disease as opposed to food insecurity and environmentally caused chronic conditions. 

[blackwing]

 

22 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

As for if her child is alive, did she see the baby after birth or was she only told that it was born  dead?  

7 minutes ago, EtheltoTillie said:

Yes, I think this was the first they mentioned Agnes's losing a child, and of course in best soap opera tradition there was not enough info.  As for Peggy, she said she almost died in childbirth, so it sounded like she may have been unconscious and anything could have happened. 

I think Peggy was indeed unconscious.  I thought she said something like "and when I came to, I was told that my baby had died".  She never saw the baby, it was already gone by the time she woke up.

[BabyBella94]

3 hours ago, blackwing said:

With respect to Raikes, if he really is indeed playing Marian because he just wants to make his mark on society... why her?  Her family isn't THAT rich or that notable, are they?  He was fixed up with a Schermerhorn at the music concert, who of course, is Mrs. Astor's family.  Wouldn't marrying a Schermerhorn be one of the ultimate goals of a rake who is just trying to hit it big?

The Van Rhjins according to Salli Richardson who is an EP are very wealthy. They are also very notable, The Brooks have been in America at that point for a century and a half and Agnes's mother is a Livingston of Livingston Manor. I would say the Schermerhorns are on the same place as them. 

Considering the fact that Mrs. Astor accepts Marian at her lunch table, I would say she's part of that society. 

[EtheltoTillie]

3 minutes ago, BabyBella94 said:

entury and a half and Agnes's mother is a Livingston of Livingston Manor. I would say the Schermerhorns are on the same place as them. 

There are buildings on the Columbia campus named after these families.  Schermerhorn was a classroom building, and Livingston was a dorm that my husband and I lived in.  In the 70s the dorms were very dumpy and roach infested, not representative of the luxury from which they came.

Edited March 15, 2022 by EtheltoTillie

[BabyBella94]

I don’t think Raikes stole money but I do believe he is a Rake. They confirmed that is what he is. He’s an adventurer who will hurt Marian but tbh at this point I hope he does bc everybody has been warning Marian for the past 8 episodes. Let her fall on her face.

Also Why is Marian more concerned about making Raikes look bad when SHE is the one still part of the affluent Livingston-Brooks family. And even if she wasn't a part of that family, reputations are always more important for the woman than for the man. She can be so annoying sometimes.

[EtheltoTillie]

 

5 minutes ago, BabyBella94 said:

I don’t think Raikes stole money but I do believe he is a Rake. They confirmed that is what he is. He’s an adventurer who will hurt Marian but tbh at this point I hope he does bc everybody has been warning Marian for the past 8 episodes. Let her fall on her face.

 

This is the worst kind of writing.  We can't even figure out anything that makes sense about this guy and Marian's money.  When they reveal it it will be a gigantic surprise.

[kristen111]

1 hour ago, izabella said:

I agree that Marian's dresses are lovely.  She's had some ugly hats, but her dresses are quite pretty, and I've liked almost all of them.  I will say that the yellow seems like an ingenue color, like Agnes or someone her age would wear.  But they are still quite beautiful.

I have noticed the lighting they use inside Agnes' house makes some of the colors change tone compared to the outside light.  I've had to stop a few times to verify that I was looking at the same dress! 

Yeah, gaslight is a bitch.  I’ve had trouble seeing when they were in Agnes’s parlor, and I have 20/20 vision.  I don’t know how Ada does her needlepoint.

[dmc]

40 minutes ago, Bulldog said:

Yes.  I assume she meant stillbirth or miscarriage, which I would assume was even more common back then.  Or maybe the child died after birth.  Walk thru any really old cemetery and you'll find a large number of child graves from this era. 

 

And don't forget picking out the feathers from your hat that came from the butchered chicken you encountered when having to escape from a home to which you hadn't been invited. 

 

I sometimes wonder if the wardrobe people who dress Marian are the same ones who used to dress Scarlett on Nashville.  That wardrobe department had an ongoing vendetta against that poor girl which was unabated during the run of the show.   Would not surprise me if it were the same people.   

Yes I wondered the same, it must be intentional as plot related because they are also dressing Bertha and Gladys. To me, the outfits overall attractiveness as garments is debatable.  They don't favor Marian at all.  

 

[Kirsty]

20 hours ago, dmc said:

I have almost lost interest in the Raikes plot it has taken so long to come to fruition.  I need Marion in another storyline fast.  

Same. I really hope the pay-off is good, and not just some off-screen action followed by a handwave-y explanation. But at this point, I'm mainly hoping that the pay-off comes next week, so we don't have to wait until next season for Marian/Raikes to go up in flames. This shit is draaaagged out enough already.

I think the season is too short for a show with a cast of this size. There isn't time to get around to everyone or to make me care about the minor characters.

Bertha continues to grow on me. Good character.

But the show is slow and low-stakes. It's nice, easy viewing but I wish it was actually compelling.

[dmc]

11 minutes ago, Kirsty said:

Same. I really hope the pay-off is good, and not just some off-screen action followed by a handwave-y explanation. But at this point, I'm mainly hoping that the pay-off comes next week, so we don't have to wait until next season for Marian/Raikes to go up in flames. This shit is draaaagged out enough already.

I think the season is too short for a show with a cast of this size. There isn't time to get around to everyone or to make me care about the minor characters.

Bertha continues to grow on me. Good character.

But the show is slow and low-stakes. It's nice, easy viewing but I wish it was actually compelling.

I want the pay off to be:

Marian is legitimately an heiress, Raikes was embezzling her father's estate all along and when he found out her father was dying...he made up debts and lied about his assets.  I want his interest in her to be a long con to isolate her from her family and society that way if she ever finds out about the money there will be little she can do

 

I fully expect the pay off to be

Raikes does like Marian but wants to do better for himself that someone with no assets so he's seduced by the world of privilege and marries another.  

This was foreshadowed when Agnes said pretty soon he won't need you.  That means Marian has access to something he wants.  He still may like her but like money more.

And I don't like Raikes but I see his point, Marian will be bringing nothing into a  marriage and I never got the feeling Raikes was a super successful lawyer...I think he's a middle class lawyer.  

Also I this is part of the reason I think Marian is sort of a dolt.  Because this was time where you absolutely needed to think about situation monetarily when you get married.  If she marries a middle class lawyer, she's not in society anymore.  She essentially would be cut off with a guy she's known two minutes

Edited March 15, 2022 by dmc

[blackwing]

18 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

 

This is the worst kind of writing.  We can't even figure out anything that makes sense about this guy and Marian's money.  When they reveal it it will be a gigantic surprise.

 

18 hours ago, Kirsty said:

Same. I really hope the pay-off is good, and not just some off-screen action followed by a handwave-y explanation. But at this point, I'm mainly hoping that the pay-off comes next week, so we don't have to wait until next season for Marian/Raikes to go up in flames. This shit is draaaagged out enough already.

I think the season is too short for a show with a cast of this size. There isn't time to get around to everyone or to make me care about the minor characters.

Bertha continues to grow on me. Good character.

But the show is slow and low-stakes. It's nice, easy viewing but I wish it was actually compelling.

It will either be a big surprise or a big letdown.  Since the entire season was in the can before there was word of renewal, I would hope that Fellowes doesn't leave any cliffhangers, in the event the show wasn't renewed.  I would hope that we learn Raikes motivations, but I am prepared to have the whole thing be nothing at all.  Just a guy who followed a girl to the big city and won her over.

I sometimes think that Fellowes has no idea what the viewers want, and just writes for himself and not for the audience.  I spent two seasons waiting for O'Brien to confess about the soap, and she never did.  I spent years waiting for Thomas to get his just desserts, and he never did.

I am equally prepared for there to be no reveal about Raikes at all.  Marian is one of the two heroines of this show in Fellowes' eye, and I really don't think he would end the season (and potentially the series) with it being revealed that Marian is an enormous fool.

As far as the season being too short to get to know everyone, I tend to disagree.  We get 10 episodes.  Downton Abbey only had about 8 episodes per season, and even after the first season I felt like we definitely knew much more about the downstairs staff than we know about the downstairs staff on this show.  I'm not sure if the problem is that there are two households, but the Van Rhijn house only has 5 servants that we see, and the Russell house only has about the same number.  Downton had about the same total number.

I think the problem is that the writing is uneven and inconsistent for the downstairs staff, it seems we only get one little snippet of each person's life and then it's dropped.  We learn that Bridget was abused some episodes ago... and then no mention of it again.  We see nasty Armstrong visiting her even nastier mother... and then no mention of it again.  If there isn't enough time to give these supporting characters full stories, then I would say there's no need to even give them any, because as it is, I really don't care to learn more about most of them.  Mrs. Bruce is the only one who hasn't gotten her own five minutes of story and at this point I don't think we need to know her.

Edited March 16, 2022 by blackwing

[dmc]

1 minute ago, blackwing said:

  41 minutes ago, EtheltoTillie said:

 

This is the worst kind of writing.  We can't even figure out anything that makes sense about this guy and Marian's money.  When they reveal it it will be a gigantic surprise.

YES.  each week our plot guesses are better than the material

[eleanorofaquitaine]

My problem with the "Marian is secretly rich and Raikes stole from her" theory is... if that's the case, then why want to marry her? In other words, if he already stole her fortune, there's no need to marry her. He's already got the money. Marrying her would more likely lead to exposure. 

I absolutely believe that they are setting up the idea that Raikes is shady and trying to use Marian to social climb. I just think that logically, the idea that he stole from her, lied to her about it but somehow thinks marrying her would secure money he already stole doesn't make a lot of sense. 

[hoodooznoodooz]

3 hours ago, dmc said:

I just had a thought, are the costume designers making Marian dowdy on purpose to show how easily it would be for her to end up like her aunts and further illustrate her need to break away with Raikes?

I actually think that Marian looks lovely in pastels! The pale yellow and pale blue are flattering, in my opinion.

But the costume designers are throwing really bizarre colors together on one dress. Purple and orange? Are college colors inspiring them? Did NYU compete against Princeton while they were sketching?

[dmc]

1 minute ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

I actually think that Marian looks lovely in pastels! The pale yellow and pale blue are flattering, in my opinion.

But the costume designers are throwing really bizarre colors together on one dress. Purple and orange? Are college colors inspiring them? Did NYU compete against Princeton while they were sketching?

I think blues would be flattering.  I think the yellow is part of the issue.  I don't know if the shades they use or what...but it washes her out to me

[buckboard]

I don't think the fact that McAllister and his wife often lived apart would make people suspicious that he was gay.  As mentioned, Mrs. Astor's husband spent more of his time on his yacht than with her.  (And with mistresses, drinking, horse-racing, and otherwise amusing himself.)  His lack of interest in New York Society was fine with Mrs. Astor, as long as her husband funded her social aspirations.) The same was true for McAllister, who came from a socially prominent Georgia family, but lived on his wife's fortune, while she was content to stay home with their children.   McAllister was related to the Astor family through the marriage of his cousin Samuel Cutler Ward to Mrs. Astor's husband's sister.

McAllister may have seemed gay - or just pretentious - but he was spending much of his adult life aspiring to be accepted in Newport and New York society.  

As for Lane's accent, I can't say whether it is over the top or not, but the real life McAllister spent over 50 years -- after growing up in Georgia -- in California, Europe, Newport and New York, so his accent could have been less than authentic after all that time away from the South.

And, I don't think McAllister knew Mrs. Astor was coming back a day earlier than expected.  Mrs. Russell was one of the many monied New Families he helped gain access to The 400.  If Mrs. Astor found out he bribed her butler to give Bertha a tour of the mansion and she found Bertha there,  that wouldn't have helped all the work Ward was doing to get her to accept Bertha.

 

Edited March 17, 2022 by buckboard

[dmc]

6 minutes ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

My problem with the "Marian is secretly rich and Raikes stole from her" theory is... if that's the case, then why want to marry her? In other words, if he already stole her fortune, there's no need to marry her. He's already got the money. Marrying her would more likely lead to exposure. 

I absolutely believe that they are setting up the idea that Raikes is shady and trying to use Marian to social climb. I just think that logically, the idea that he stole from her, lied to her about it but somehow thinks marrying her would secure money he already stole doesn't make a lot of sense. 

My guess is he become if he is found out, he's a criminal and as opposed to a husband overseeing this wife's money

[eleanorofaquitaine]

But the likelihood of him being found out is basically nil if he stays in Doylestown and never sees Marian again. The likelihood of discovery goes up if he actually marries Marian and then is like, "remember I told you that you had no money? Yeah, not so much."

The show hasn't been subtle in saying why we should be suspicious of Raikes - because of his shameless social climbing. Agnes says it once an episode and now we have Aurora saying it. But the writing hasn't raised any suspicion about him when it comes to Marian's inheritance and in fact, Ada confirmed that Marian's dad was not great with money. It just seems unlikely that they are going to spring the idea that Marian is secretly wealthy and IMO, it would be really bad writing if they did.