S01.E08: Tucked Up in Newport

[JenE4]

I’m somewhat disappointed that George’s big scandal turned out to be two low-level workers in his company skimming the books. I really  thought that other railroad magnate that he put out of business in episode 1 was finally getting his vengeance—but George would knock him down once again.

I’m also questioning McAllister’s motives. Did he really not know his bestie was arriving that day—or is he just amusing himself because he knows Mrs Russell would do anything  to make it on his 400 list? I think he genuinely likes Mrs Russell’s “tenacity” but if his whole deal is ensuring society operates within his (and Mrs Astor’s) parameters, I can’t imagine he’d be that keen on backing someone with her own ideas (and money to back it) to reshape “polite society”—especially since he knows Mrs Astor is NOT onboard with letting Bertha in at this point! Yet, that was really a fantastic scene of Bertha’s utter humiliation—being forced to scurry through the servant’s quarters—with the chicken feathers and fish guts flying. Then I suppose she had to walk to where she was staying. (Though, I was in Newport this summer, and I think those houses were all in a row on the “cliff walk” area on the sea [https://www.discovernewport.org/things-to-do/cliff-walk/ ]. The tennis casino [https://www.tennisfame.com/museum-and-grounds/historic-grounds] is a further out in what is the downtown area. We had lunch in a restaurant that’s attached to the tennis pavilion.) 

You know what? I’ve done a 180 on Marian. All this time we just thought she was a terrible actress. I’ve reached a point where I think she’s “dead behind the eyes” because her character was dropped on her head (by a midwife??) as a baby, and she is suffering a mental disability. That’s the only explanation for her response to Aurora’s reveal about Raikes being a social climber—just like everyone else has been telling her—to be like:  You’ve convinced me! I’m going to run off and marry him! Girl, please…

Count me amongst the votes for Peggy’s child definitely being alive. Then again, I thought the ruined railroad magnate was going to come back around and be an important character in George’s potential downfall, so what do I know! At this point, Bertha’s entire society plan could be thwarted by a peeved Bloomingdale’s clerk who orders the wrong-sized quadrille dresses on purpose just for the hell of it.

[NeenerNeener]

13 hours ago, Bulldog said:

Marian:  Everybody is warning me against Mr. Raikes, so the only solution is to go ahead and marry him.  I haven't been as hard on her as some commenters, but she really is just plain stupid.  

If you watch Pieces of Her on Netflix, she reminds me of the idiot daughter, Andy, in that show. And the idiot princess granddaughter on season 5 of The Last Kingdom. Hmmm....tv writers seem to think women in their teens and twenties are airheads who always make wrong decisions. I'm don't like that trend.

[BeatrixK]

4 minutes ago, JenE4 said:

You know what? I’ve done a 180 on Marian. All this time we just thought she was a terrible actress. I’ve reached a point where I think she’s “dead behind the eyes” because her character was dropped on her head (by a midwife??) as a baby, and she is suffering a mental disability. That’s the only explanation for her response to Aurora’s reveal about Raikes being a social climber—just like everyone else has been telling her—to be like:  You’ve convinced me! I’m going to run off and marry him! Girl, please…

I dunno -- I've gone far more head over heals for dudes who lived in their parents basement and didn't have a car when I was that age.

Young Women's judgement should always be suspect when it comes to love at that age.  lol.

Edited March 15, 2022 by BeatrixK

[Yeah No]

23 minutes ago, AZChristian said:

I don't think Marian ever thought she had a claim to the Van Rhijn fortune.  I suspect Marian may have a larger fortune than her aunts, and I suspect that Raikes knows it.  He just wants her to think he cares about her welfare, so he's suggesting she should go to live with her well-to-do aunts.  In reality, he's using her as a chess piece to give himself more options for greater wealth in New York than he can attain in Doylestown.

I wonder if he somehow changed her father's will so that he inherits the fortune, which he knows about but is keeping secret.  Or since he was handling the will as a lawyer, that he hid the fact that there was money and embezzled it for himself.  Not sure that's why he would need to marry her, though.  But I hope she finds out about whatever it is.

[KarenX]

5 minutes ago, BeatrixK said:

Raikes and Oscar are two sides of the same coin: Oscar is too obvious about it.  Raikes is just better at the social game - and doesn't have the Super Creepy Cartoon Villain look Oscar seems to have embraced.

Raikes is doing better because he is an actual uncloseted heterosexual. Oscar is faking it, and you can tell. Women can tell. They may not have language for it but they know something else is there. Oscar admitted it, too. His ability to be an unblemished single gentleman has an expiration date.

Oscar might have been written as a confused, not even out to himself character, which might have made his interest in young heiresses more sincere, and he would have had more of Riakes’s luck. But… he is out to himself. He is in what appears to be a full-bodied openly romantic gay partnership. I think they are monogamous even.* He can’t commit fully to the role of suitor, even if he hadn’t been woefully miscast as a swain.

It’s too much baggage. He simply can’t achieve the levels of Adventurer-ing that Raikes can.

*Maybe Oscar and John are the true foils to Bertha and George. I’d put Oscar opposite Bertha. John, like George, seems more content with his position. Oscar is the one reaching for the stars here.

[sistermagpie]

12 minutes ago, BeatrixK said:

I dunno -- I've gone far more head over heals for dudes who lived in their parents basement and didn't have a car when I was that age.

Young Women's judgement should always be suspect when it comes to love at that age.  lol.

That's the thing though--it would work better if she did seem head over heels. Instead she seems pretty lukewarm on Raikes himself and just convinced this is the smart thing to do!

[Yeah No]

56 minutes ago, LydiaMoon1 said:

I am a native Southerner. That Foghorn Leghorn-sounding fool gets on my last nerve. His over-baked accent makes my ears bleed.

I hear you, but could it be that his accent is somehow rooted in history?  Accents have changed since that time.  I'm not a Southerner but I'm in my 60s and when I went down South when I was kid Southerners sounded different in general than they do now.  Their accents were more pronounced.  Even northerners don't sound like they used to.  They didn't have the internet and TV to make people's accents more uniform.  Some people from my grandparents' generation would sound like fake, overdramatic caricatures to us today.   When I think of some of the characters I used to know I have to laugh because today we would consider them funny.  Besides, I generally like Nathan Lane and would like to think he knew better.  Just a theory. 

[KarenX]

1 minute ago, sistermagpie said:

That's the thing though--it would work better if she did seem head over heels. Instead she seems pretty lukewarm on Raikes himself and just convinced this is the smart thing to do!

She told Peggy she wants to get married because she is surrounded by dowagers. I couldn’t decide if she means marriage is her ticket out of boredom and she is still nursing the wound of not being allowed to go see the electric lights party, or if the dowagers are something she aspires to.

I was startled to hear Aurora call herself Marian’s best friend. Is Marian older than we think?

[Ms Blue Jay]

What is the hurry when it comes to Marian wanting to elope with Raikes?  I understand his hurry, but what is hers?

Edited, thanks @KarenX

Edited March 15, 2022 by Ms Blue Jay

[MollyB]

13 hours ago, AntFTW said:

I understood all of that. What I didn't understand was what was the crime they were covering up? What was the thing that proved George was innocent? That's the part that didn't make sense to me.

The stenographer went to the courthouse and said a few words, and she knows "Dixon". Dixon yells "SHUT UP." Then George is innocent and life goes on. That's all I got from the courthouse scenes.

The whole thing was so rushed.  Should have been more scenes that showed a link between the steno and Dixon. Hell, it would have been nice to have seen Dixon before the hearing.  Maybe Russell should fire his advisors-because in the scenes we got from them, it was all doom and gloom that he was going down and nothing could be done about that.  Did anyone from Russell's camp investigate at all? The judge was too quick to exonerate Russell just on the anger of Dixon and the hysterical blubbering of the steno. I'm guessing the purpose of the whole story was to highlight Bertha's persistence to climb socially, putting that above her husband's concerns and the wedge it might drive between her and Russell.  Whole story fell flat.

And as for the 'elopement'.  Marion is dumber than a sack of hair.  There. I said it.

[blackwing]

I really don't understand why Agnes hasn't fired Bannister or Armstrong.  Armstrong is the worst, I am glad that Ada doesn't like her.  Does Armstrong only dress Agnes?  Ada does everything herself?  I am surprised that the other servants don't shun her, she is such a nasty person to everyone in the house.  Surely Agnes could find someone new.  She said that at her age she didn't have the patience to train someone new, but how hard is it?  As it is, she has now lost her secretary (although she seemed to be doing fine without Peggy before Peggy arrived) and has to find a new one.

I couldn't care less about bald stalker who is stalking his daughter and badly acted crying when his daughter shunned him.  Truly don't care about this guy at all.

I also don't really care about the French Chef's secret.

It seems obvious that Bannister knows that Church wrote the letter to Agnes, and let him know it.  I know we are supposed to find this squabbling between the two amusing, but I don't.

Is Turner gone for good?  I do want to see more scheming from her.

17 hours ago, Straycat80 said:

I didn’t understand the whole thing with the stenographer, the other guy in court, or how George was exonerated. Really I don’t care because it was boring. 

17 hours ago, dmc said:

there was nothing to understand, it didn't make sense.  

I am amused that seemingly half of the discussion in this thread is about us trying to explain that scene that didn't make any sense.  I've read the explanations and I STILL don't fully understand what happened.  Some guy that worked for George produced a letter indicating that George knew about the use of bad materials.  The secretary was apparently working with him and supplied him with the fake or doctored letter.  That guy was paying her by letting her use his charge account at Bloomingdales.  They get caught because she left her purse in the store.

All of that I get... what I'm not fully getting is why.  That guy was fired by George so was simply trying to get revenge?  Was that it?  How was that going to help the guy, other than satisfaction?  Was he getting paid by someone to do this?  Seems kind of simple... and uninteresting.  I was convinced there was going to be a trial extending into the next episode and perhaps the season finale, and it all just seemed so anticlimactic to have it all wrapped up so neatly.  George really owes a huge favor to Marian.  And by extension, Bertha owes a favor to Marian, because without Marian's accidental discovery, George and Bertha might have been ruined.

 

11 hours ago, sheetmoss said:

I missed if John Adams was really wealthy. Yes, he has a name/pedigree, but somebody like Bertha would really want her daughter to really marry into great wealth. 

I think he was described as a grandson or great-grandson of John Quincy Adams, but I think even then there must have been hundreds of Adams descendants, so maybe whatever power or money the name had has been diluted many times at this point.  Also, the Adams family isn't an Old New York family, and I think Bertha is only concerned about Old New York.

How come nobody can tell that John Adams is gay?  It seems fairly obvious as soon as he starts talking.

6 hours ago, eejm said:

I would absolutely watch the shit out of Law & Order: Gilded Age.  

In the gilded age, the people consist of two separate and apparently not equally important groups.  The Old New York families, who have been there since the Revolution, and the New Money families, who are trying to join.  These are their stories.  DUN DUN!

Edited March 15, 2022 by blackwing

[Lassus]

54 minutes ago, Melina22 said:

I thought Agnes's reason for keeping Armstrong was very believable

100% agree.

[blackwing]

Just now, Ms Blue Jay said:

What is the hurry when it comes to Marian wanting to elope with Raikes?  I understand his hurry, but what is hers?

She's tired of everyone (mainly Agnes, with a side of Aurora) telling her that Raikes is "bad" so she thinks that she should marry him ASAP and they will be forced to accept him.  Which I totally don't get.  If she marries him and they want to shun him they will also shun her.  What's wrong with taking him to the next society ball and introducing him to everyone formally as her boyfriend/beau/whatever?  They seem to think that if they have a marriage license, everyone will "come around".

13 hours ago, SnazzyDaisy said:

Ada: “You can’t be going alone to stay with Mr. McAllister.”

Aurora: “I’d be safe as brandy if I were.”

I'm not sure what she was supposed to mean by that.  I mean, when I hear it, I think it's because McAllister seems to me to be Gay as a Day in May, hence my surprise at learning there was a Mrs. McAllister.  But is this what the characters thought?  Is McAllister supposed to be not-so-secretly gay, and Aurora and everyone knows it?

[KarenX]

2 minutes ago, blackwing said:

How come nobody can tell that John Adams is gay?  It seems fairly obvious as soon as he starts talking.

2 hours ago, eejm said:

Maybe because he isn’t heiress chasing they don’t really care. Maybe he has passed the rubicon to One of Those Older Bachelors. He was collected by Mamie Fish, who amuses herself with oddities, so he is a kind of party feature. He’s still society, and as long as he keeps his proclivities to himself they can work around it.

[AntFTW]

Now that Agnes is aware that Armstrong ain't shit, does she still believe Armstrong about Oscar's alleged affair with Turner?

Edited March 15, 2022 by AntFTW

[Yeah No]

About the letter - something doesn't add up.  Wouldn't it have been found anyway if it was already written about something else?  Maybe the stenographer forged the date and/or put it in with the railroad correspondence to make it look like it was about the railroad.  Something else had to have been done to connect the letter with the shoddy railroad parts.  And if Dixon was paying her off for something else, like keeping her mouth shut about his embezzlement, why would that prove that the letter didn't prove anything about the railroad parts?  Unless they could connect either Dixon or the stenographer with forging the letter or making it look like the letter was written about the railroad parts I don't get it.  Unless him paying her off was enough to cast suspicion on both of them.  Not sure I get it but I admit I haven't thought long enough about the situation to figure it out.

[sistermagpie]

10 minutes ago, blackwing said:

All of that I get... what I'm not fully getting is why.  That guy was fired by George so was simply trying to get revenge?  Was that it?  How was that going to help the guy, other than satisfaction? 

I didn't think there was any reason? The guy was skimming and didn't want to be the one who went down for the crash so he pretended George told him to use cheap materials when really he bought cheap materials himself and pocketed the rest of the money. The investigators went to him and he pointed at George.

10 minutes ago, blackwing said:

How come nobody can tell that John Adams is gay?  It seems fairly obvious as soon as he starts talking.

People didn't know Liberace was gay! If you're living in a totally homophobic society the default is to think that any "normal" person has to be straight. Even Aurora's little joke about McCallister was more about how he wasn't a guy that interested rather than the idea that he would actually have sex with men. 

 

8 minutes ago, blackwing said:

She's tired of everyone (mainly Agnes, with a side of Aurora) telling her that Raikes is "bad" so she thinks that she should marry him ASAP and they will be forced to accept him.  Which I totally don't get.  If she marries him and they want to shun him they will also shun her.  What's wrong with taking him to the next society ball and introducing him to everyone formally as her boyfriend/beau/whatever?  They seem to think that if they have a marriage license, everyone will "come around".

LOL. Yup, worse logic ever. That's our Marian. Haha! Now you have to acknowledge this bounder as being chained to me for life! Great plan, Marian. Couldn't possibly go wrong for you.

[izabella]

15 minutes ago, blackwing said:

All of that I get... what I'm not fully getting is why.  That guy was fired by George so was simply trying to get revenge?  Was that it?  How was that going to help the guy, other than satisfaction?  Was he getting paid by someone to do this?  Seems kind of simple... and uninteresting.  I was convinced there was going to be a trial extending into the next episode and perhaps the season finale, and it all just seemed so anticlimactic to have it all wrapped up so neatly.  George really owes a huge favor to Marian.  And by extension, Bertha owes a favor to Marian, because without Marian's accidental discovery, George and Bertha might have been ruined.

The guy had been skimming money all along.  He was charging Russell full price for quality parts for the railroad, buying used parts or lesser quality, cheaper parts, and then pocketing the difference.  The letter that Russell wrote about his office redecoration was used to cover up that the guy was stealing/skimming and make it seem like Russell had been the one to order cheaper, substandard parts.

The guy and Miss Ainsley were working together, but they never intended to use the purloined letter for anything unless they got caught.  The only reason they got caught was there was an accident, and they discovered the substandard parts were used.  That's when they tried to save themselves by bringing forth the letter.

[Sarah 103]

 

13 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I think more stuff happened during a commercial break?

I am seriously, honestly, genuinely curious: Where/how are you watching this with commercial breaks? It's on HBO and HBOMax which do not have commercial breaks. 

13 hours ago, peridot said:

When Adams said "I love you", that kind of took me out of the scene a bit.  He said that pretty loud!  Wouldn't he be arrested for that? 

No, because it would be too easy to cover it as part of a story about a woman. Any sign of physical affection in public might have been enoughto get them arrested. It would have been too easy to cover it by saying it was part of a story involving a woman.  

5 hours ago, Bulldog said:

Just based on their ages, Jack and Bridget could not have worked for Agnes for very long.  So, clearly Agnes is not completely adverse to hiring new servants.  I realize their roles aren't quite as personal as that of a ladies' maid, but still she could train new help if she wanted.

A ladies maid like Armstrong is a position that Agnes would have had daily contact with and would be someonethat Agnes would train. Agnes would not have been training Jack and Bridget and would not have significant contact with on a regular basis. Training Jack and Bridget would have been Bannister's responsibility. 

9 minutes ago, blackwing said:

How come nobody can tell that John Adams is gay?  It seems fairly obvious as soon as he starts talking.

It was not until the 1980s or 1990s that straight people outside the entertainment industry had gaydar. 

[Haleth]

20 minutes ago, blackwing said:

All of that I get... what I'm not fully getting is why.  That guy was fired by George so was simply trying to get revenge?  Was that it?  How was that going to help the guy, other than satisfaction?

Dixon was being blamed for the accident and was facing legal action himself until he produced the convenient misleading letter. He was passing the buck. 

Edited March 15, 2022 by Haleth

[LydiaMoon1]

23 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

I hear you, but could it be that his accent is somehow rooted in history?  Accents have changed since that time.  I'm not a Southerner but I'm in my 60s and when I went down South when I was kid Southerners sounded different in general than they do now.  Their accents were more pronounced.  Even northerners don't sound like they used to. 

All true, but, trust me. His accent is just bad.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

6 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I didn't think there was any reason? The guy was skimming and didn't want to be the one who went down for the crash so he pretended George told him to use cheap materials when really he bought cheap materials himself and pocketed the rest of the money. The investigators went to him and he pointed at George.

Yes, the reason was that Dixon knew he would be rightly blamed for killing 5 people so he came up with this silly plan to frame George after the fact. This wasn't a revenge plot or anything.

IMO, this was too rushed a plot line - with both the construction of the new station and this plot, it could have played out over the entire season, much like Bertha's drama has. For whatever reason, they decided to rush both of these business-focused plots, which is too bad.

But they did explain why this happened, it's just that they could have had it unveil in a more interesting and dramatic way. 

Edited March 15, 2022 by eleanorofaquitaine

[AntFTW]

5 minutes ago, izabella said:

The guy and Miss Ainsley were working together, but they never intended to use the purloined letter for anything unless they got caught.  The only reason they got caught was there was an accident, and they discovered the substandard parts were used.  That's when they tried to save themselves by bringing forth the letter.

This is really bad planning of financial scamming.

2 minutes ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

Yes, the reason was that Dixon knew he would be rightly blamed for killing 5 people so he came up with this silly plan to frame George after the fact. This wasn't a revenge plot or anyway.

That's what makes me think that the stenographer would have needed to have near-perfect foresight to know that she should save that letter.

[blackwing]

13 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I think more stuff happened during a commercial break?

 

9 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

I am seriously, honestly, genuinely curious: Where/how are you watching this with commercial breaks? It's on HBO and HBOMax which do not have commercial breaks.

I think the comment about a commercial break was meant as a joke.  I interpret it to mean that she meant to convey that stuff must have happened offscreen, since we didn't actually seem to see it onscreen.

It's tongue in cheek and making fun of shows where interesting or important stuff happens offscreen or during commercial, because all of a sudden something has happened and we didn't even see it.  This was infamously used on "The Young and the Restless" when one of the characters actually had a miscarriage during the commercial break.  We see her in pain, show goes to commercial, show comes back and she's cleaning herself up.

[AntFTW]

24 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I didn't think there was any reason? The guy was skimming and didn't want to be the one who went down for the crash so he pretended George told him to use cheap materials when really he bought cheap materials himself and pocketed the rest of the money. The investigators went to him and he pointed at George.

I guess Dixon didn't have to bring back receipts of the purchases or perhaps those were forged too.

On one hand, we have a conveniently found letter from George that says to use cheaper parts. However, if someone looks at the books, they can see that they have allocated funds to purchase new parts.

That's sloppy. I have a letter from the head of the company that says buy cheaper parts but the books report that we bought new parts. Their detectives don't seem to be doing a lot of detecting.

Edited March 15, 2022 by AntFTW

[LydiaMoon1]

28 minutes ago, blackwing said:

All of that I get... what I'm not fully getting is why.  That guy was fired by George so was simply trying to get revenge?  Was that it?  How was that going to help the guy, other than satisfaction?  Was he getting paid by someone to do this?  Seems kind of simple... and uninteresting.  I was convinced there was going to be a trial extending into the next episode and perhaps the season finale, and it all just seemed so anticlimactic to have it all wrapped up so neatly.  George really owes a huge favor to Marian.  And by extension, Bertha owes a favor to Marian, because without Marian's accidental discovery, George and Bertha might have been ruined.

What you just described is my main criticism of this show. It has a habit of lingering on the dull and uneventful and then rushing past things that could and should be exciting. This is the Miss Turner firing all over again. They set up what should end in an interesting conclusion, only to fumble it by omitting character motivations, critical scenes, and satisfying climaxes to their story arcs. It's a problem.

[MollyB]

10 hours ago, KarenX said:

So… did McAllister set up Bertha? Did he prank her? Is this a test?

I don't think McAllister knew Mrs. Astor would be there, but he sure as hell knew the gossip mill would be running through the servants and Mrs. Astor would hear about it soon enough.  Bertha should have declined the snoop visit to show her good manners, so, yeah, maybe it was a test.  McAllister and Fish seem to be bored, rich shit disturbers and enjoy throwing tacks on the barefoot racecourse.

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, JenE4 said:

 

Count me amongst the votes for Peggy’s child definitely being alive. Then again, I thought the ruined railroad magnate was going to come back around and be an important character in George’s potential downfall, so what do I know! At this point, Bertha’s entire society plan could be thwarted by a peeved Bloomingdale’s clerk who orders the wrong-sized quadrille dresses on purpose just for the hell of it.

Turner could be that clerk. 

[sistermagpie]

19 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

I am seriously, honestly, genuinely curious: Where/how are you watching this with commercial breaks? It's on HBO and HBOMax which do not have commercial breaks. 

13 hours ago, peridot said:

I'm not. I accidentally said commercial break when I thought of the scene cutting away, but it just cut to someone else doing something and then came back. Just showing my age by instinctively connecting that to a commercial break. LOL.

 

16 minutes ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

IMO, this was too rushed a plot line - with both the construction of the new station and this plot, it could have played out over the entire season, much like Bertha's drama has. For whatever reason, they decided to rush both of these business-focused plots, which is too bad.

 

Honestly, I was surprised George, the rich guy, would have been the victim. Seems like he'd have had an easier time blaming it on an underling than the opposite. It was Dixon's word against his with a letter that didn't mention the railroad at all. There wasn't anybody else involved in any work to say how George wasn't looking for cheap materials? They couldn't find any extra cash in Dixon's life despite his having a charge account at Bloomingdales? I know things weren't electronic then but it doesn't seem like he'd been covering his tracks so carefully all along.

[Brian Cronin]

51 minutes ago, blackwing said:

I'm not sure what she was supposed to mean by that.  I mean, when I hear it, I think it's because McAllister seems to me to be Gay as a Day in May, hence my surprise at learning there was a Mrs. McAllister.  But is this what the characters thought?  Is McAllister supposed to be not-so-secretly gay, and Aurora and everyone knows it?

I was super irked at that line, as it sure seemed to be a "everyone knows he's gay" reference, when that would 100% never be discussed about someone in polite company like that. 

[Yeah No]

28 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Quote

How come nobody can tell that John Adams is gay?  It seems fairly obvious as soon as he starts talking.

People didn't know Liberace was gay! If you're living in a totally homophobic society the default is to think that any "normal" person has to be straight. Even Aurora's little joke about McCallister was more about how he wasn't a guy that interested rather than the idea that he would actually have sex with men. 

So true, this cannot be overstated.  Well into the 20th century a lot of straight people were still completely blind about it even though gayness was well known by the late part of the century.  Back at the time of this show it wasn't even a "thing" and gay men like this didn't arouse any suspicions because of all the ignorance and denial about it in the culture.  They could even dress more colorfully and no one would think "gay", just that he was an "artiste" or something else.  A lot of people didn't know Clinton Kelly from "What not to Wear" was gay and that was only a decade ago.  He didn't advertise it either.  I knew, I thought it was obvious.  Even in my own family we didn't ever think my mother's uncle was gay despite all the signs being there.  People can be especially blind to it in their own families which is yet another reason why Agnes isn't seeing it.

[Brian Cronin]

59 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

Besides, I generally like Nathan Lane and would like to think he knew better.  Just a theory. 

I'm a huge Nathan Lane fan and I was pleased to see him here, but yeah, Lane and subtle/natural are not things that go well together. ;)

[Yeah No]

40 minutes ago, LydiaMoon1 said:

1 hour ago, Yeah No said:

I hear you, but could it be that his accent is somehow rooted in history?  Accents have changed since that time.  I'm not a Southerner but I'm in my 60s and when I went down South when I was kid Southerners sounded different in general than they do now.  Their accents were more pronounced.  Even northerners don't sound like they used to. 

All true, but, trust me. His accent is just bad.

I will trust you on that especially because of what @Brian Cronin just said!

[sempervivum]

4 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

Back at the time of this show it wasn't even a "thing" and gay men like this didn't arouse any suspicions because of all the ignorance and denial about it in the culture.  They could even dress more colorfully and no one would think "gay", just that he was an "artiste" or something else.

Yes. Arguably, Oscar Wilde's conviction for sodomy would have opened the eyes of these folks, but that wouldn't happen til 1895. BTW, OW was in NYC in 1882, so some of them might have seen his lectures.

[iMonrey]

So this week's token servant stories go to Jack and . . . the bald guy who is apparently George Russell's valet. Without checking imdb.com - can anyone tell me his name? Me neither. In fact there are still several servants whose names I do not know, which reflects how poorly these characters have been developed. Most of their stories have been confined to one episode; hopefully this baldie servant mystery will be resolved as quickly as George's legal troubles. 1

For what it's worth it didn't even occur to me the mystery woman might be baldie's daughter. He doesn't look old enough to have a child that old.

Edited March 15, 2022 by iMonrey

[Conotocarious]

I don’t understand why they would introduce new servant stories in the episode before the season finale. Are we supposed to care?

[Carolina Girl]

1 hour ago, BeatrixK said:

OK -- hadn't thought about it - but Y'all convinced me that Marian probably does have more money than assumed. 

One of my reasons for thinking this is that this guy is in a BIG hurry to marry her.   Suddenly he no longer cares about  wining over Aunt Agnes at all and instead fosters a plan that will literally alienate her from her family.

I'm reminded of something Agnes said at the dressmakers when Ada asked if she would really "disown" them.  Agnes' response was "I want them to think I would."  Agnes is to the point.  She would have said "absolutely."  

[AntFTW]

9 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

the bald guy who is apparently George Russell's valet. Without checking imdb.com - can anyone tell me his name? Me neither.

Edited March 15, 2022 by AntFTW

[dmc]

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

I really don't understand why Agnes hasn't fired Bannister or Armstrong.  Armstrong is the worst, I am glad that Ada doesn't like her.  Does Armstrong only dress Agnes?  Ada does everything herself?  I am surprised that the other servants don't shun her, she is such a nasty person to everyone in the house.  Surely Agnes could find someone new.  She said that at her age she didn't have the patience to train someone new, but how hard is it?  As it is, she has now lost her secretary (although she seemed to be doing fine without Peggy before Peggy arrived) and has to find a new one.

I couldn't care less about bald stalker who is stalking his daughter and badly acted crying when his daughter shunned him.  Truly don't care about this guy at all.

I also don't really care about the French Chef's secret.

It seems obvious that Bannister knows that Church wrote the letter to Agnes, and let him know it.  I know we are supposed to find this squabbling between the two amusing, but I don't.

Is Turner gone for good?  I do want to see more scheming from her.

I am amused that seemingly half of the discussion in this thread is about us trying to explain that scene that didn't make any sense.  I've read the explanations and I STILL don't fully understand what happened.  Some guy that worked for George produced a letter indicating that George knew about the use of bad materials.  The secretary was apparently working with him and supplied him with the fake or doctored letter.  That guy was paying her by letting her use his charge account at Bloomingdales.  They get caught because she left her purse in the store.

All of that I get... what I'm not fully getting is why.  That guy was fired by George so was simply trying to get revenge?  Was that it?  How was that going to help the guy, other than satisfaction?  Was he getting paid by someone to do this?  Seems kind of simple... and uninteresting.  I was convinced there was going to be a trial extending into the next episode and perhaps the season finale, and it all just seemed so anticlimactic to have it all wrapped up so neatly.  George really owes a huge favor to Marian.  And by extension, Bertha owes a favor to Marian, because without Marian's accidental discovery, George and Bertha might have been ruined.

 

I think he was described as a grandson or great-grandson of John Quincy Adams, but I think even then there must have been hundreds of Adams descendants, so maybe whatever power or money the name had has been diluted many times at this point.  Also, the Adams family isn't an Old New York family, and I think Bertha is only concerned about Old New York.

How come nobody can tell that John Adams is gay?  It seems fairly obvious as soon as he starts talking.

In the gilded age, the people consist of two separate and apparently not equally important groups.  The Old New York families, who have been there since the Mayflower arrived, and the New Money families, who are trying to join.  These are their stories.  DUN DUN!

I feel like the writers thought we would only care George was freed and not examine the details too closely. Clearly they were inaccurate but I think that’s what they thought.

 

Honestly I never thought George would go to jail but I was hoping for a real reveal like maybe one of the alderman was getting revenge for their earlier bankruptcy.  This reveal was George was sabotaged by a bunch of characters we don’t know for a random reason was ehhh. 

Edited March 15, 2022 by dmc

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, AZChristian said:

At their first meeting in his office in Doylestown, Raikes mentioned that Marian had already told him about her aunts in New York. 

Did she talk "about my aunts" or did she tell Agnes' married name? Plus, is there a book about 400 families or how could Raikes know who belongs to them?

One of my friends worked long with a woman who had inherited a fortune from his father whose name everyone knew but didn't have a clue because her colleague used her married name. 

[dmc]

1 minute ago, Roseanna said:

Did she talk "about my aunts" or did she tell Agnes' married name? Plus, is there a book about 400 families or how could Raikes know who belongs to them?

One of my friends worked long with a woman who had inherited a fortune from his father whose name everyone knew but didn't have a clue because her colleague used her married name. 

If Raikes handled her father’s business, he likely knew about his extended family 

[ajsnaves]

3 hours ago, AZChristian said:

At their first meeting in his office in Doylestown, Raikes mentioned that Marian had already told him about her aunts in New York.  IMO, he's a lot like Oscar.  Why be pretty well off when you have the opportunity to marry someone who can make you REALLY rich?  

Emphasis mine

At time, I’ve been wondering if he is a lot more like Oscar than we realized, in that he is secretly gay, and needs a beard. Why he would latch onto Marian, I do not know.  Unless she really does have the secret fortune he has hidden.

[sugarbaker design]

28 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

So this week's token servant stories go to Jack and . . . the bald guy who is apparently George Russell's valet. Without checking imdb.com - can anyone tell me his name?

I don't know the character's name, but I knew he was Russell's valet, and I knew that he left on mysterious walks during the day, and the head housekeeper was interested in him and his walks.  I also watched Downton Abbey for several episodes before I got all the characters' names straight.

[sacrebleu]

Well, count me among the people who think Raikes didn't tell the complete truth about Marion's father's estate. I was also convinced Raikes had something to do with Dixon's shady cheap train parts. ( The crash happening in PA was my only link).

I also think Ada not firing Armstrong because she can't be bothered to break in a new maid was totally realistic. Sure she's racist, and generally unpleasant, but I don't want to be inconvenienced, so she stays 

[Roseanna]

2 hours ago, BeatrixK said:

Young Women's judgement should always be suspect when it comes to love at that age.  lol.

Well, let's say that older people aren't always wrong. They can see suspicious things because they aren't blinded by love.

On the other hand, they can have prejudices that are groundless. 

[Roseanna]

8 minutes ago, dmc said:

If Raikes handled her father’s business, he likely knew about his extended family 

Marian's father had left everything to her only child. There was no reason to look for his other relatives.   

[dmc]

3 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Marian's father had left everything to her only child. There was no reason to look for his other relatives.   

I mean if he didn’t just handle Marion’s father’s estate and maybe handled his business completely.  My attorney absolutely knows about my extended family.  

[buttersister]

I'm from the Not Clairvoyant, Just Watch A Lot of TV Dept. Called that Jack's flowers were for a grave at the jump.

Also looking forward to meeting Peggy's little boy. 

And it appears as though the forum's spent more time decoding George's threat story than the writers did seeing it up.

But Berta spitting feathers? Carrie Coon!

 

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, izabella said:

As for Peggy, I question her judgment!  I do!  She encourages Marian to follow her heart with Raikes, and that is the worst advice possible.  Considering her own situation, I'd expect she would know how badly things could end up for Marian if she elopes with someone she hardly knows and that everyone in her life is warning her against.

 

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Exactly! Plus, she had a husband who was bullied into signing a document so their marriage would be annulled, despite presumably being in actual love with Peggy. Doesn't seem like Raikes would be much more stalwart if he was challenged. He's never faced any real challenges and seems to assume they can all be breezed by.

I agree completely. 

I don't understand at all how Peggy who is so clever could fall in love a man who isn't educated. What could they discuss about? Was he so good in sex?

Plus, she is looking for the midwife to find the grave of her child but she isn't interested to find her (ex-)husband. So she doesn't care her any more but she doesn't think she made a mistake by eloping with him? 

[sistermagpie]

57 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

So this week's token servant stories go to Jack and . . . the bald guy who is apparently George Russell's valet. Without checking imdb.com - can anyone tell me his name? 

Tony award winner Michael Cerveris, of course!

Oh, you mean the character name. Ummm....no.