S01.E05: Charity Has Two Functions

[twoods]

I’m also irritated that Larry doesn’t have a storyline, unless they are trying to wedge her between shady Raikes and Marian.

Poor Gladys. At least she knows that her parents are the reason she can’t see that guy anymore and that he’s not an asshole who broke her heart. He didn’t have a choice but to take the job offer. 
Glad to see that Peggy and Marian are still friends and confiding in each other. Im on the boat of her getting pregnant with the stock boy’s baby and that is why she need Raikes- to find the baby she put up for adoption.

[sistermagpie]

6 minutes ago, BabyBella94 said:

Bertha wants Gladys to be a Princess or a Duchess. She wants her to have a title so the Russells could basically outrank everyone in the old money society, the old money society would have to bow down to them.

Is that how that works? I mean, would Old Money America consider a duchess to outrank them?

[BabyBella94]

3 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Is that how that works? I mean, would Old Money America consider a duchess to outrank them?

Absolutely. The old money prided themselves that they are WASPS (White Anglo-Saxon Protestant) and how they descend from the British. The old money basically copied anything the British royals/nobles (and other European nobility) did.  If Gladys was to become a Princess or a Duchess, she would outrank them all and they could never ignore the Russells ever again. Bertha would probably look down on them bc her daughter is part of actual aristocracy while the old money crew is just basically copying them. 

It happened in real life many times. "New Money" famlies marrying their daughters off to royal/nobles so they can be accepted into society. Once their daughter got that title they are in a whole different social class. It's what happened with Consuelo and Alva Vanderbilt. Alva was shunned because she got a divorce but as soon as everyone heard that her daughter is marrying a duke, they all went running to be in her favor. 

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, BabyBella94 said:

Absolutely. The old money prided themselves that they are WASPS (White Anglo-Saxon Protestant) and how they descend from the British. The old money basically copied anything the British royals/nobles (and other European nobility) did.  If Gladys was to become a Princess or a Duchess, she would outrank them all and they could never ignore the Russells ever again. Bertha would probably look down on them bc her daughter is part of actual aristocracy while the old money crew is just basically copying them. 

It happened in real life many times. "New Money" famlies marrying their daughters off to royal/nobles so they can be accepted into society. Once their daughter got that title they are in a whole different social class. It's what happened with Consuelo and Alva Vanderbilt. Alva was shunned because she got a divorce but as soon as everyone heard that her daughter is marrying a duke, they all went running to be in her favor. 

Thanks! I knew they wanted the titles, but didn't know if they recognized the rank the same way.

[Atlanta]

A good companion to this show would be the mini-series "The Buccaneers." It has a pre-Oscar Mira Sorvino and young Carla Gugino. 

[BabyBella94]

Mrs. Astor was such a hypocrite. 

[yellowjacket]

5 minutes ago, BabyBella94 said:

Absolutely. The old money prided themselves that they are WASPS (White Anglo-Saxon Protestant) and how they descend from the British. The old money basically copied anything the British royals/nobles (and other European nobility) did.  If Gladys was to become a Princess or a Duchess, she would outrank them all and they could never ignore the Russells ever again. Bertha would probably look down on them bc her daughter is part of actual aristocracy while the old money crew is just basically copying them. 

Well, not entirely in this era in NYC - old money families were Dutch (Vanderbilts, Stuyvesants, etc). Van Rhijn is a Dutch name. WASPs but not necessarily British.  Lots of them were descended from the original Dutch colonists, when Manhattan was New Amsterdam.

[BabyBella94]

3 minutes ago, yellowjacket said:

Well, not entirely in this era in NYC - old money families were Dutch (Vanderbilts, Stuyvesants, etc). Van Rhijn is a Dutch name. WASPs but not necessarily British.  Lots of them were descended from the original Dutch colonists, when Manhattan was New Amsterdam.

Apart from Protestant English, German, Dutch, and Scandinavian Americans, other ethnic groups were also sometimes included under the label WASP. But yes I would say NYC was more accepting than lets say Boston. I don't think the Russells would've ever been accepted there. 

[PRgal]

41 minutes ago, BabyBella94 said:

Gladys is 17. Her actress confirmed it. 

If she’s 17, then she’s not too old not to be out.  Debutantes were between 16-18.  She’s right in the middle.

I’m curious about Peggy and the stock boy….hehe.  She and Gladys have a lot in common (ie what we would, today, call helicopter parents.  Bertha is like that mom who wants her kids to go to a commuter school rather than away and maybe even dictating what they should major in).

[BabyBella94]

1 minute ago, PRgal said:

If she’s 17, then she’s not too old not to be out.  Debutantes were between 16-18.  She’s right in the middle.

I’m curious about Peggy and the stock boy….hehe.  She and Gladys have a lot in common (ie what we would, today, call helicopter parents.  Bertha is like that mom who wants her kids to go to a commuter school rather than away and maybe even dictating what they should major in).

I hope Archie comes back in future episodes, regardless of the threats. It would make a really good storyline imo. 

[rollacoaster]

1 hour ago, CattyK said:

George seems to be able to see Gladys as an actual person, where Bertha just sees her  as a pawn in her game.  So I don’t understand why George lets Bertha steamroller over Gladys’s life. 
at this point I don’t really see how Bertha is helping George.  It seems like he is helping her get into society but what is she actually doing for him.  And where is Larry?  He could do more to help Gladys.  

I think George lets Bertha handle Gladys because that's considered part of Bertha's purview: the household and the children.

If Bertha is able to get into society, that will help the entire family. Women had a lot of soft power and influence behind the scenes. Plus, I think up to now, she has been very supportive of his goals to get them where they are. They are truly partners. 

[iMonrey]

Quote

I don't know if we'll see her with her mother again in this season, but if the show continues for a number of seasons I'd see this more as the writers building some backstory/context for characters that could be used as subplots in succeeding seasons. I thought it was a good scene in that it gave some color to her sort of generally bitter behavior. It's more than we've got yet with Turner - who is equally bitter behaving, but with far less reason as far as we know. 

True, and yet Turner is the only servant character that has had an ongoing storyline. The cook's gambling problem, the maid's sexual abuse, the housekeeper's mother - these were all contained within single episodes. It's a stark contrast to how well defined the servant characters were on Downton from Day 1. Their stories carried equal weight to those of the family. Here, it feels as if the show is being forced to write story for the servant characters and is doing so half-heartedly.

[heatherchandler]

19 hours ago, AntFTW said:

I think that was Aurora Fane. But also, Anne Morris was a little "racisty." She refused to walk with Peggy and I think she scoffed when Peggy started asking questions to Clara Barton.

They are ALL racisty!  They are upper crust snobs living in the 1880s.  Even Marion is keeping her in her "place."  They might as well just show how racist they all were in that time.  I know someone mentioned that if they did, they would all come across as monsters, and there would be no one to like.  

They should have just gone Hamilton and had actors of different races play the parts, rather than try to make it "sweet."

 

Are we supposed to like Bertha?  I really hate her.

19 hours ago, dmc said:

 

and velvet ribbon tied around her neck.  I keep thinking somebody’s going to pull it off and her head will roll off

 

That would greatly improve my viewing pleasure.

 

[Sarah 103]

 

7 hours ago, Affogato said:

 I think they are terrible, terrible people, and are leaving a trail of devastation in their wake. But we like their relationship with each other and their excellent, supportive marriage!

I was trying to find a way to say something very similiar to this. As individuals, both George and Bertha are terrible, but at the same time it's awesome to see them very clearly in love with each other and supporting each other as they work to achieve thier goals.  

The lunch with Ward McAllister did not go the way I thought it would. I thought Marian would say or do something stupid so that any mistake Bertha made would be instantly forgotten. Based on McAllister's comments, I am now even more convinced the season finale will be the ball for Gladys filling the ballroom with all of the right people. 

I am hoping Peggy and Marian continue to have a good relationship and that Marian actually learns from her mistake with the shoes. 

 

[edhopper]

2 hours ago, yellowjacket said:

Well, not entirely in this era in NYC - old money families were Dutch (Vanderbilts, Stuyvesants, etc). Van Rhijn is a Dutch name. WASPs but not necessarily British.  Lots of them were descended from the original Dutch colonists, when Manhattan was New Amsterdam.

The Vanderbilts were not "Old Money" Mrs. Astor shunned them and thought they were crude upstarts.

 

[CattyK]

1 hour ago, rollacoaster said:

I think George lets Bertha handle Gladys because that's considered part of Bertha's purview: the household and the children.

If Bertha is able to get into society, that will help the entire family. Women had a lot of soft power and influence behind the scenes. Plus, I think up to now, she has been very supportive of his goals to get them where they are. They are truly partners. 

I guess to me, George seems more human because he does care, seemingly, about his kids.  I think he sees how unfair Bertha is to Gladys yet he doesn’t even try to discuss it.  
 

I initially felt they were partners but now I feel like Bertha is just supremely selfish and controlling , not only of Gladys and the household but of George.  Maybe even that George is somewhat afraid of Bertha and that’s why he didn’t fire her maid whose name I’ve forgotten.  
 

 

[eejm]

20 hours ago, Brian Cronin said:

Oh, sure, there's been some hesitancy (like the Bloomingdales employees), but it's still bizarre just HOW accepting society has been to Peggy showing up at places. A quick surprise and then, "Oh, okay." 

I always thought the same of Barrow on Downton Abbey.  Yes, he absolutely faced plenty of problems due to being gay.  But so many of the other characters learned about it and were understanding or didn’t seem otherwise bothered.  That seemed to be an overall enlightened response for the time.

[PRgal]

2 hours ago, BabyBella94 said:

Apart from Protestant English, German, Dutch, and Scandinavian Americans, other ethnic groups were also sometimes included under the label WASP. But yes I would say NYC was more accepting than lets say Boston. I don't think the Russells would've ever been accepted there. 

Why was that?  Were too many immigrants/children of immigrants becoming wealthy (think Kennedys)?  

[MissLucas]

1 hour ago, eejm said:

I always thought the same of Barrow on Downton Abbey.  Yes, he absolutely faced plenty of problems due to being gay.  But so many of the other characters learned about it and were understanding or didn’t seem otherwise bothered.  That seemed to be an overall enlightened response for the time.

That's writing historical fiction 101 - misogyny, homophobia and racism will only be displayed by villains. The supposed good characters will have a quasi modern mindset. And some middle of the road folks will learn a valuable lesson. Historical accuracy be damned. There were always people around who pushed for a more progressive agenda but not to the degree books and shows like DA would like us to think.

Edited February 23, 2022 by MissLucas

[yellowjacket]

24 minutes ago, eejm said:

I always thought the same of Barrow on Downton Abbey.  Yes, he absolutely faced plenty of problems due to being gay.  But so many of the other characters learned about it and were understanding or didn’t seem otherwise bothered.  That seemed to be an overall enlightened response for the time.

Yes, I just rewatched the arc where Barrow jumps James-Jimmy in his bed after what Barrow mistakenly thought was a flirt session and gets caught.  Almost everyone acts like it was just who he is, couldn't help it, and His Lordship says lots of boys tried to kiss him at Eton.  No big deal! 

Humpf, totally unlikely.

I wish there is another show about Peggy's family and we get to hear the maid laughing her ass off at the dumb white girl with the boots.  Peggy is already far more interesting than Marian.  Although that scene when she almost got Pamuked wasn't the first time Marian sucked face.

Edited February 23, 2022 by yellowjacket

[BabyBella94]

13 minutes ago, PRgal said:

Why was that?  Were too many immigrants/children of immigrants becoming wealthy (think Kennedys)?  

Yes and because they cared a lot more about "pedigree" than NYC did, if you had enough money in NYC you can probably join the "400" slowly, they were more open in a way than Boston was. 

[eleanorofaquitaine]

6 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Thanks! I knew they wanted the titles, but didn't know if they recognized the rank the same way.

I mean, yes and no. At the end of the day, we weren’t and aren't an aristocracy and part of what this era showed is that, in this country, at least, money was actually more important than class. Mrs. Astor's list of society lasted for as long as Mrs. Astor did - unlike in Europe, where you might be poor, but if you were a member of the aristocracy, you still ranked. But unlike actual aristocracy, it was pretty easy for someone to lose their social standing if they lost their money.

That was kind of the point of many of Edith Wharton's novels - that the things that signified "good society" were pretty arbitrary and that money was important. So unofficially, a duchess or a princess may "outrank" but that "rank" didn’t matter much in a world where money buys status (see the character of Countess Olenska in The Age of Innocence - she had a title but no money and scandal attached to her name).

Edited February 23, 2022 by eleanorofaquitaine

[eleanorofaquitaine]

26 minutes ago, PRgal said:

Why was that?  Were too many immigrants/children of immigrants becoming wealthy (think Kennedys)?  

In the 1880s, the Kennedys weren't really the wealthy powerhouse that they were in the 20th century. But in Boston, this was an era where there were some political gains among the immigrant communities (for instance, Rose Kennedy's father - "Honey" Fitzgerald- was the mayor of Boston).

But the truth is that old Yankee Boston was generally a conservative culture. They did react to the changes to Boston's population by creating the whole Brahmin image. But it's not like it was so freewheeling in Boston prior to the 1860s. And even today, there are those that feel like they have lived in Boston for decades and still feel like they aren't accepted by the powers that be.

[BabyBella94]

30 minutes ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

I mean, yes and no. At the end of the day, we weren’t and aren't an aristocracy and part of what this era showed is that, in this country, at least, money was actually more important than class. Mrs. Astor's list of society lasted for as long as Mrs. Astor did - unlike in Europe, where you might be poor, but if you were a memberof the aristocracy,  you still ranked. But unlike actual aristocracy, it was pretty easy for someone to lose their social standing if they lost their money.

That was kind of the point of many of Edith Wharton's novels - that the things that signified "good society" were pretty arbitrary and that money was important. So unofficially, a duchess or a princess may "outrank" but that "rank" didn’t matter much in a world where money buys status (see the character of Countess Olenska in The Age of Innocence - she had a title but no money and scandal attached to her name).

But in the gilded age it did matter, there's a reason why many new money families married off their daughters to men with titles. Mrs. Astor could never ignore a Duchess or her family. That stuff mattered to the people who liked to cosplay the aristocracy. It was a way for the new money to kind of also snub the old money in return aka by saying "fine you don't have to accept us, but actual aristocracy does" 

[PRgal]

 

47 minutes ago, yellowjacket said:

Yes, I just rewatched the arc where Barrow jumps James-Jimmy in his bed after what Barrow mistakenly thought was a flirt session and gets caught.  Almost everyone acts like it was just who he is, couldn't help it, and His Lordship says lots of boys tried to kiss him at Eton.  No big deal! 

Humpf, totally unlikely.

I wish there is another show about Peggy's family and we get to hear the maid laughing her ass off at the dumb white girl with the boots.  Peggy is already far more interesting than Marian.  Although that scene when she almost got Pamuked wasn't the first time Marian sucked face.

I agree.  I would LOVE a show about the Scotts.  I want to know about Mr. Scott's struggles becoming well off, for example.  I (and many other viewers) also want to know if he was freed as a child, who helped him with his education/training, etc...I guess we'll learn more about Peggy's stock boy later this season...maybe...

[BabyBella94]

I wish we could see Marian doing more interesting things. Like exploring the city, getting involved in charity work, making new friends and etc. This whole romance with Raikes is boring. 

[eleanorofaquitaine]

10 minutes ago, BabyBella94 said:

But in the gilded age it did matter, there's a reason why many new money families married off their daughters to men with titles. Mrs. Astor could never ignore a Duchess or her family. That stuff mattered to the people who liked to cosplay the aristocracy. It was a way for the new money to kind of also snub the old money in return aka by saying "fine you don't have to accept us, but actual aristocracy does" 

But again - money mattered more. That was my point about Countess Olenska. She had a title but once she lost her money (and was considered scandalous like Mrs. Chamberlain), the title didn't matter. The point is, even in the Gilded Age, in the U.S., issues of status and class were much more fluid than they were in Europe and money was a far more important factor than anything else.

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, CattyK said:

I guess to me, George seems more human because he does care, seemingly, about his kids.  I think he sees how unfair Bertha is to Gladys yet he doesn’t even try to discuss it.  
 

I initially felt they were partners but now I feel like Bertha is just supremely selfish and controlling , not only of Gladys and the household but of George.  Maybe even that George is somewhat afraid of Bertha and that’s why he didn’t fire her maid whose name I’ve forgotten.  
 

 

Nah. Bertha just gets caught up in an idea and misses things outside her area of focus. I think George gets that. He probably does the same. It is likely neither are good or very present parents. It isn’t their greatest flaw. Servants take up the slack. 

Edited February 23, 2022 by Affogato

[Adgirl]

7 hours ago, Carolina Girl said:

I wonder if he's setting up situations where Marian is "compromised" so that to save her "reputation" Aunt Agnes will have to agree to a marriage.  

Genius!

[Empress Josephine]

Mrs. Russell pisses me off sometimes. I don't like what she and Mr. Russell did to that young man Archie. Poor Gladys.

When Mrs. Russell acts like such a snob like in this episode, I don't feel bad that the old money crowd is mean to her or judges her when she turns around and does the exact same thing. I understand she wants what is best for her daughter but damn. George is so coldhearted too. 

 

 

[CattyK]

36 minutes ago, Empress Josephine said:

Mrs. Russell pisses me off sometimes. I don't like what she and Mr. Russell did to that young man Archie. Poor Gladys.

When Mrs. Russell acts like such a snob like in this episode, I don't feel bad that the old money crowd is mean to her or judges her when she turns around and does the exact same thing. I understand she wants what is best for her daughter but damn. George is so coldhearted too. 

 

 

Bertha wants what is “best” in her own view, no consideration for Gladys own wants.  Right now I feel like both George and Bertha are the epitome of coldheartedness even to their own kids.  

[CattyK]

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

Nah. Bertha just gets caught up in an idea and misses things outside her area of focus. I think George gets that. He probably does the same. It is likely neither are good or very present parents. It isn’t their greatest flaw. Servants take up the slack. 

“Caught up in an idea and misses what is outside her focus” for sure, and her focus is totally selfish IMO.  Agree they are shitty parents and very flawed people.  

[mojito]

9 hours ago, Roseanna said:

In that class and age most men would have put their career, position and wealth before love.

There could be no love without $, so what was the boy to do?

About race...I rolled my eyes when the Irish maid made a comment in one of the first episodes about not wanting black people to take their jobs. If I recall correctly, it was the Irish who took jobs from black people when the Irish first flooded NYC. Until that time, there were lots of black folks in NYC.  Central Park, very close to where the two main homes are, was once a black area. All this to say that white people were accustomed to having black people around in NYC. 

Rich white people in NYC were probably more indifferent than hateful to black people. Black people didn't threaten them in any way; they knew their place, and they were a necessity as a labor force. It was the lower classes who were more apt to be hostile to black people as they saw them as competition for jobs and homes. They were more apt to come into contact with black people. 

It doesn't seem so unusual to me the way Agnes is treating Peggy. She has respect for this woman of the underclass and she's shown some concern for her (wanting Peggy to contact her mother, not wanting a "fugitive" living under her roof). She trusts her and acknowledges her abilities and talents. Look how she's twice told Peggy to sort of keep her writing on the down low so as not to upset people. But I don't think she suggested that she not write. When Peggy told her that she would not spy on Marian for her, Agnes didn't bat an eye.

I think the relationship between Agnes and Peggy is the most interesting relationship on the show. Peggy is staff. Maybe a bit more special, but staff nevertheless. I can imagine Agnes thinking that Peggy is her kind of person: direct, smart, industrious, too bad she bears the cross of being "colored". I can imagine Peggy thinking that Agnes is pretty all right for a white woman. 

My favorite line came from Marian when speaking about Agnes' approval of something, "Surely there's more at stake here than Aunt Agnes' smelling salts."

 

[Affogato]

11 minutes ago, CattyK said:

Bertha wants what is “best” in her own view, no consideration for Gladys own wants.  Right now I feel like both George and Bertha are the epitome of coldheartedness even to their own kids.  

Not an epiphany!

They aren’t meant to be nice people. They are interesting complex characters. They have good qualities, but nice doesn’t seem to be one of them. 

[eejm]

6 hours ago, Atlanta said:

A good companion to this show would be the mini-series "The Buccaneers." It has a pre-Oscar Mira Sorvino and young Carla Gugino. 

I saw the miniseries and absolutely loved it.

[Broderbits]

On 2/21/2022 at 11:08 PM, Bulldog said:

I thought it was some kind of test.  If he turned down the offer, it would show he really loved Gladys and George would give his blessing.  But, I guess that wasn't what George had in mind.  

I considered that possibility too. Then I remembered Bertha, who had already made up her mind about the young man's suitability for her daughter. George might have liked him then, but Bertha rules the roost. Don't cross Bertha!

[blackwing]

Well, after Bertha behaved so graciously with her subdued pleasure at being invited on the Red Cross visit and her generous donation, I was thinking maybe I was starting to come around on my views of the Russells.  Then she and George were so unnecessarily cruel to Gladys and Archie.  George threatened to destroy his career if he didn’t dump Gladys.  Archie had no choice and he knew it.  He was basically paid off like a cheap prostitute by George.  Terrible.  I know it won’t happen, but I want the train crash to ruin them.

Am I supposed to feel sympathetic for the nasty maid after learning that she has an even nastier mother?  Sorry, I don’t.  The fact that she had a nasty mother, you’d think she’d try to find happiness in her work. 
 

So Oscar has installed Turner as his spy in the Russell house for the sole purpose of gaining information to try and advance his cause towards Gladys.  Um ok.  I like Turner only because she is trouble for the Russells. 

[CattyK]

21 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Not an epiphany!

They aren’t meant to be nice people. They are interesting complex characters. They have good qualities, but nice doesn’t seem to be one of them. 

LOL no definitely not an epiphany

[Noneofyourbusiness]

10 hours ago, Pj3422 said:

Exactly! The woman in the picture is Lizzie Borden. The one who finagled the ladies’ maid role is Mrs. Burns. 

I think you mean Mrs Bruce.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

9 hours ago, Atlanta said:

Please don't marry her off to some gold digging earl or duke unless they wind up like Cora and Robert.

 

9 hours ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

I feel like I am sticking up for a character that is ultimately not that important but it's not like Archie had any real reason to presume that George would object to him. Archie (seemingly) comes from a respectable family; he comes from the same class as the Russells, if you will. In fact, I would venture to guess that his family was probably more respectable than the Russells. As far as he was concerned, I am guessing, he was courting a young lady of his class, whose family would look favorably on his suit.

And quite honestly, it's likely George would have looked favorably on him, if not for Bertha's ambitions. George had nothing against the guy and even told Bertha he seems like a decent sort after George went all Don Corleone on him. In short, IMO, Archie really didn't do anything wrong but get in the way of what Bertha wants.

Yes, Archie's family has history, as Gladys mentioned last episode, and we learned this episode that they even have an in with the Astors already. The inescapable conclusion is that Bertha wants Gladys to marry a noble, because that's the only thing grander than what she just sabotaged.

Edited February 23, 2022 by Noneofyourbusiness

[KarenX]

I just don’t see the Russells as bad parents. This battle of wills between Gladys and her mother notwithstanding, they seem to be a family created on security and respect. Neither Gladys nor Larry fears speaking their mind or arguing with their parents. They sit around the table and have lively conversation. For all Gladys says no one listens to her she’s gotten a governess to take her on trysts and convinced a maid to spy for her. Both children are confident and self-assured.

Now I wonder aloud: If Gladys successfully debuts to a filled ballroom, that makes Larry’s status rise, too. Sure, he’s friends with people but if his sister gets brought out The Right Way that eligibility will shine on him, too. Bertha is kind of doing double duty here, but sadly Gladys is the only one affected day to day.

[Brian Cronin]

5 hours ago, MissLucas said:

That's writing historical fiction 101 - misogyny, homophobia and racism will only be displayed by villains. The supposed good characters will have a quasi modern mindset. And some middle of the road folks will learn a valuable lesson. Historical accuracy be damned. There were always people around who pushed for a more progressive agenda but not to the degree books and shows like DA would like us to think.

Yep, that's it 100%. I obviously get it to a certain degree, but boy, it sure limits the power of the topic to avoid showing the reality of history while ostensibly trying to do a show ABOUT these topics. 

[Roseanna]

4 hours ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

But again - money mattered more. That was my point about Countess Olenska. She had a title but once she lost her money (and was considered scandalous like Mrs. Chamberlain), the title didn't matter. The point is, even in the Gilded Age, in the U.S., issues of status and class were much more fluid than they were in Europe and money was a far more important factor than anything else.

There was countries of different kind in Europe. As we saw in Downton Abbey, in Britain only the eldest son inherited the title and fortune, so a distant cousin like Matthew Crawley belonged to a middle-class. 

In some countries, successful businessman and civil servants got a title. Poor aristocrats married daughters of businessmen.

In Norway, there was no aristocracy at all. 

The 1880ies was a very interesting period when educated people were discussing about modern ideas in many areas (f.ex. rights of women, workers, own language and ethnicity). Many writers and artists who are valued even today begun their career then.

[Hiyo]

Quote

Mrs Elton in Emma was unknown to all when she married Mr Elton. She was shown to be ill-mannered because she, although knowing not to speak about herself, spoke about her relatives whom nobody knew.

Is Emma really a valid comparison for this show? It would be like comparing a show from the 1990s to one that took place in the 1930s...

Quote

I suspect that Bertha might be looking for something across the pond for Gladys, someone with a fancy title and a giant old house. 

Yeah, people have been speculating from the beginning that Gladys will become a Dollar Princess.

If not that, then married off to someone from an old money family.

Quote

The old money prided themselves that they are WASPS (White Anglo-Saxon Protestant) and how they descend from the British.

In this city, I think old money having Dutch roots was considered even more prestigious and more common. Not to say that you didn't have old money with British roots, just that the Dutch were probably the largest ethnic group among the old money crowd.

Quote

Is that how that works? I mean, would Old Money America consider a duchess to outrank them?

I'm not sure it's a case of being "outranked" - the British aristocracy isn't officially recognized in the US, is it? - but more the prestige of having "nobility" in someone's family.

[Roseanna]

I find it interesting that railroads were built by private businessmen, evidently only for commercial reasons (passengers, cargo) as the US was protected by two oceans.

In many European countries, the state had a strong interest in railways. In poorer countries, only a state had enough resources. But everywhere planning the railway routes one must pay regard to the military reasons. On the other hand, how can one best carry the troops to the frontier for defense or attack? On the hand, one shouldn't build a railway route too near to the seaside, lest the enemy would make a landing.   

[Roseanna]

14 minutes ago, Hiyo said:

Is Emma really a valid comparison for this show? It would be like comparing a show from the 1990s to one that took place in the 1930s...

While the good manners changed much during 20th century, I don't think they did so in the 19th century, at least among the society.

In any case, I was answering to the claim that it's suspicious that Raikes doesn't tell to Marian about himself but is only interested in anything that interest her. 

I admit that it can be suspicious if it continues, but was it the meaning of courtship that a man tried to please a woman and listened to her (unlike when they are married)? 

On the other hand, Marian doesn't ask Raikes questions about his past. That could mean that she likes to be admired, courted and even kissed by him but isn't interested in him as a person as she in Peggy. In short, there is "eros" in their relationship but not "filia" (friendship). 

Generally, I don't think telling anecdotes about one's childhood makes a good dialogue that must in any case be short.

 

[Hiyo]

That's all fine and dandy, just not sure using literature that was published decades and decades before this era is the best use of a comparison. I mean, granted, The Age of Innocence was published decades after, in 1920, but at least in-story only take places a decade or so prior to the events of this series, so for me works as much better comparison piece.

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On the other hand, Marian doesn't ask Raikes questions about his past. That could mean that she likes to be admired, courted and even kissed by him but isn't interested in him as a person as she in Peggy

Then again, Marian seems to have the social grace and intelligence of a pineapple, so maybe best no to over analyze her actions.

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Generally, I don't think telling anecdotes about one's childhood makes a good dialogue that must in any case be short.

It doesn't have to be about one's childhood, it can be anything. Just to give us a better sense of the person.

And yes, I realize what I said above was insulting and offensive to pineapples, but I still stand by my assessment.

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, Hiyo said:

It doesn't have to be about one's childhood, it can be anything. Just to give us a better sense of the person.

Unfortunately, I would find a person who tells personal memoirs to unknown people who are not asked about them quite selfish and boring.

But lets presume Marian had made questions to Raikes. What kind of things she should have paid attention to? Of course how he speaks about his family, especially about his mother and sisters if any, what kind of values his stories reveal, his sense of humor (can he laugh at himself?).

 

[CattyK]

1 hour ago, Hiyo said:

Then again, Marian seems to have the social grace and intelligence of a pineapple, so maybe best no to over analyze her actions.

Pineapple: the dumbest fruit.  
 

but seriously, I agree Marian is not a deep or fascinating character.  I think you make a good point about not over analyzing her behavior.  Raikes seems about as bland as Marion to me.   Very good looking but not too interesting.  

[Hiyo]

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Unfortunately, I would find a person who tells personal memoirs to unknown people who are not asked about them quite selfish and boring.

Well, mileage varies and all of that.