S01.E03: Face the Music

[Affogato]

18 hours ago, dmc said:

The other part of this show that I find odd is they constantly present George and Bertha as wanting to be part of society...and every time they get the slightest opportunity or chance they both act they don't want to be a part of it...like which is it.  

I don’t think they want to simply be part of society. I think they want to be the center of it. 
 

or at least Bertha does and he supports her. His interests ate more business oriented. 

Edited February 9, 2022 by Affogato

[dmc]

4 minutes ago, Affogato said:

I don’t think they want to simply be part of society. I think they want to be the center of it. 
 

or at least Bertha does and he supports her. 

I think to be at the center, you have to be a part of it first.  

Edited February 9, 2022 by dmc

[Affogato]

1 minute ago, dmc said:

I think to be at the center, you have to be apart of it first.  

In this group you don’t want to look weak or needy. They don’t forget that sort of thing. Nor do high school girls. 

[Snazzy Daisy]

53 minutes ago, JenE4 said:

You’re just like me. I get so distracted by the set design and the wardrobe that I forget to pay attention to the dialogue. I just wish your screen grab was just a tinge wider to show the five glasses each diner had at their place setting! I spent that whole scene trying to figure out what could have been in each glass (aside from the obvious red wine and water) and paying attention to who drank what. Everyone seemed to be going for the wine or the water. I guess the other cocktail glasses were for different courses?

Yupp, 5 glasses - water goblet, champagne flute, red wine glass, white wine glass and sherry glass. 😱

Normally those glasses would be set slightly to the right of the plate/guest, right?

[MerBearHou]

I'm wondering if Julian Fellowes chose Mr. Raikes' name with a not-so-subtle reference to a "rake" which is NOT a good label to have.  At first, I thought Mr. Raikes was meant to be a Matthew-type for Marion -- either he is going to disprove Agnes is "never wrong" in her judgments of people and their intentions (especially when it comes to money) and he's sincere and the real deal OR he'll turn out to be a handsome snake in a charming suit.

Edited February 9, 2022 by MerBearHou

[MissLucas]

If the maid manages against all odds to get pregnant from Russell it will be her ruin and not his. Pregnant servants were tossed out unceremoniously, they were considered sluts and claims of fatherhood ignored. Russell would hardly get in trouble with society - with Bertha, yeah that's another question.

I've once read that elaborate dinner scenes are a nightmare for continuity. You can either serve prop food and hope the actors can sell it that they are eating when they are not. If you serve real food it has to be the same menu every time, the plates arranged identically etc. - in those cases actors sometimes ask for a spit bucket.

Speaking of that dinner scener Larry mentioning his mother's ancestors digging up potatoes in Kerry was rather rude. He got a light reprimand from his father but I expected more consequences (after dinner of course).

4 minutes ago, MerBearHou said:

I'm wondering if Julian Fellowes chose Mr. Raikes' name with a not-so-subtle reference to a "rake" which is NOT a good label to have.  

Maybe he did. He'd be in good company, Jane Austen called her perfect male character Mr Knightley* after all (s. a. Mr Wickham).

*Yeah, I know that's disputed 😁

[sistermagpie]

35 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

If the maid tries to pull the "I'm pregnant" card, I can see Bertha arranging for her to meet an unfortunate fall on that big staircase...

While George congratulates her on her excellent aim.

[Melina22]

1 hour ago, JenE4 said:

You’re just like me. I get so distracted by the set design and the wardrobe that I forget to pay attention to the dialogue. I just wish your screen grab was just a tinge wider to show the five glasses each diner had at their place setting! 

Every time we see them at some fancy meal (ie. every meal, it appears) I think what a waste it is for the women. Imagine sitting down to tables full of food made by the very best chefs, only your entire midsection is squished in a vice. It's just cruel. 

That said, today's ultra-rich women don't have to squeeze themselves into corsets, but the expectation of staying thin is just as intense. Maybe there's something to be said for being less rich and famous, and more able to just sit and enjoy your food. 

[brillia79]

On 2/8/2022 at 11:14 AM, bunnyface said:

The person I watched this episode with gasped and said "That poor man!" when Morris killed himself.

I'm sorry, but "poor man" nothing.  That group set out to mercilessly and mirthfully ruin George and had apparently done it many times in the past to others.  Then, the one time it doesn't work out, he gives up and kills himself.  At least Bertha told George "hey, if we lose, we'll just start again.  We can do it."  Maybe it's a product of being screwed over myself, but I was glad when he got around them.

That being said, though, I do understand why the old money was resisting the new, at least as told in this story.  The Morgans  RUSSELLS (? is that right?  George and Bertha) seem so crass and almost like bullies.  "You will love me OR ELSE!!"  People aren't drawn to that.  Being quiet and less showy would be more impressive to the old money crones, although that doesn't make for as compelling a drama.  But these people are the worst.  All of them, new and old.

 

ETA:  Russell.  Their name is Russell.  I'll figure it out.

Ageeed, except for the Russels maybe being accepted if they were less showy. Nope. Agnes gave up the plot in the first episode: old money rules, new money drools. There is/was nothing the Russell’s could do to gain acceptance other than just taking it. Old money is bigoted and trying to maintain control and “pure” status. The Russels could lay prostrate before the old money families, and they’d still be laughed at and stepped on. The only thing they can do to get past that is to break their obstacles.

I’m not crying for old money. They’ve likely destroyed many in the same way they tried to destroy George Russell. 

[mojito]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

If the maid tries to pull the "I'm pregnant" card, I can see Bertha arranging for her to meet an unfortunate fall on that big staircase...

I think it would be in the maid's best interest (and George's) to keep this hush-hush and have her and the baby set up somewhere else in the city, far from the in crowd. 

Based on George's shrewdness, it would seem out of character for him to fall into her trap, though.

[Hiyo]

Quote

Maybe there's something to be said for being less rich and famous, and more able to just sit and enjoy your food. 

You can, just hire a personal trainer and nutritionist lol

Quote

The only thing they can do to get past that is to break their obstacles.

Yes, by becoming just as rotten as the people in the club they are forcing their way into...

Quote

They’ve likely destroyed many in the same way they tried to destroy George Russell. 

And as many as he himself has probably destroyed. You don't get to be that rich with clean hands, the new money of that era weren't called robber barons for nothing...

 

[Sarah 103]

10 hours ago, MrsR said:

I say that Raikes has hidden some oil holdings in Marion's fathers name and shortly after he gets Marion in front of a J.P.,  he will receive word that Marion is actually well off and he will offer to manage these holdings as a good husband would. Marion will become the dreaded New Money with an Old Money name and connections.

I am confused. I didn't think investing in New Money made someone part of the New Money crowd. Oscar is Old Money. If Oscar buys stocks in railroads or oil and increases his fortunte, he is still Old Money. Could someone tell me if my understanding is correct? 

1 hour ago, SnazzyDaisy said:

5 glasses - water goblet, champagne flute, red wine glass, white wine glass and sherry glass. 😱

Normally those glasses would be set slightly to the right of the plate/guest, right?

Each glass/drink is for a different course too, if I remember correctly, except for water. I don't think water goes with a specific course of the meal. 

40 minutes ago, brillia79 said:

 Agnes gave up the plot in the first episode: old money rules, new money drools. 

I think there's another element to this plot of "old money rules, new money drools," which is the younger generation. Oscar and Marian have no problem with New Money. Larry was invited to the Old Money Newport party, so he isn't being completely shunned by the Old Money crowd. The Astor daughter seemed to hint there might be a benefit to socializing with New Money. I am curious to see how this subtle intergenerational battle plays out. 

[blackwing]

On 2/7/2022 at 10:22 PM, Brn2bwild said:

I know we're supposed to be so impressed with the Russells, be all "You made that alderman kill himself. You go!" but this episode made me hope they would eventually hit their limits.  When the lesson of every episode is that money always wins for you whatever you want, the world takes on a cynical, empty shape.  I find Mr. Russell hot, but I don't like him, nor Mrs. Russell.  I want their "victories" to come at some cost to themselves.

 

On 2/7/2022 at 10:30 PM, eejm said:

I wonder what the social fallout for the Russells will be now that the alderman killed himself.  While George made it clear he’s not to be messed with, I can’t imagine the “old” money is itching to welcome them with such scandal attached to the situation.

Julian Fellowes made it clear that the Russells are considered protagonists in this show, so I can see how we are supposed to view the sequences of events here as "good show Mr. Russell" and "you go girl Mrs. Russell" when they each separately denied the entreaties of the Morrises.

But I still find them very distasteful.  They use their money to get what they think they deserve.  When Bertha was saying to Mrs. Morris that "in order to make a withdrawal, you have to make a deposit first".  Well, the same goes for her.  What kind of deposits has she made with the Old Money crowd?  Yes, she gave some donations, but she gives these donations with the expectation that she will immediately be accepted.  She offered her ballroom, but that was with the condition/expectation that she would immediately be accepted.  She needs to make donations and whatnot to show that she is a good and valuable member of society.  Things take time and she is unwilling to wait for time to pass.

And yes, now that Morris has killed himself, and his crowd will know it was because of his poor choices and because of Russell, why would any of them want anything to do with the Russells?

The show has yet to answer the question as to why Bertha is so intent on instantly making herself a part of "old New York".  It was mentioned that the Morgans, Roosevelts and Vanderbilts are starting a new opera house.  We know that this will become the Met and we know that these families become very prominent in American society.  Why doesn't Bertha want to associate with them?  She could be hanging out with them and donating money to the new opera house, while at the same time trying to make her inroads into Old Money.  If she is hanging out with the Vanderbilts, the show could at least mention it.  She doesn't have to be depicted as having a one track mind, her way or the highway.

 

On 2/8/2022 at 1:54 AM, meatball77 said:

I think Oscars bed buddy is his valet so he has an excuse to be at his house all the time.

 

On 2/8/2022 at 6:27 AM, Fake Jan Brady said:

Agnes thought John Adams was a prospect for Marian in episode one so he must have money.

I didn't think Oscar lived in the house?   He always seems to drop by during the day.  He's in his 30s and has a good job, there wouldn't be any reason why he would want to stay in the family home, especially if he has a secret gay lifestyle.  I assumed that he and John are in either his home or John's home.  We saw it was late at night and John came into the parlor/something room and asked him if he was coming to bed.  If they were in Agnes' home, they would have been a lot more discreet.

John Adams was introduced as a friend of Oscar's, a descendant of John Adams the President, and a potential suitor for Marian.  I would imagine he inherited some money.  I'm not sure why he was so aghast that Oscar was trying to marry a woman for money.  Somehow Agnes and Ada decided that John and Marian wouldn't work.  Why not?  It's not like Agnes and her husband married for love.  It seems like an obvious solution to me... Agnes doesn't like the lawyer, but here is a rich man with a good pedigree and he is a friend of her son's.  Why isn't she pushing this more?

I could see Larry Russell and Marian getting together eventually.  Marian doesn't have money but Larry doesn't need it, and Marian does have the "old New York" ties.

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, MissLucas said:

If the maid manages against all odds to get pregnant from Russell it will be her ruin and not his. Pregnant servants were tossed out unceremoniously, they were considered sluts and claims of fatherhood ignored. Russell would hardly get in trouble with society - with Bertha, yeah that's another question.

That happens in 19th century fiction where the aim was to paint the upper class black. Irl, however, at least some aristocrats took care of their offspring born outside marriage, paying studies or helping to find jobs for sons and arranging marriages for daughters. That happened especially in cases when the relationship with their mother had been long but they couldn't marry because of their different station.  

As for the maid, why on earth would she want to become swiftly pregnant? A far better aim would be to become a mistress of a rich man who would give her a house, servants, money clothes, jewels.   

[eejm]

11 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

That happens in 19th century fiction where the aim was to paint the upper class black. Irl, however, at least some aristocrats took care of their offspring born outside marriage, paying studies or helping to find jobs for sons and arranging marriages for daughters. That happened especially in cases when the relationship with their mother had been long but they couldn't marry because of their different station.  

As for the maid, why on earth would she want to become swiftly pregnant? A far better aim would be to become a mistress of a rich man who would give her a house, servants, money clothes, jewels.   

She’s a dingus who seems to think George Russell wants her when he clearly does not.  I imagine she’d be stupid enough to believe she could blackmail him with a pregnancy thinking it would further prevent the family from breaking into the top tier of society.  We know Turner looks down on them for it.  
 

Besides, men like George wouldn’t choose a servant as a mistress, he’d choose someone in his own social class.    If Turner thinks George will shower gifts on her then she’s even stupider than she looks.  That’s one hell of a pipe dream.

Edited February 9, 2022 by eejm

[Roseanna]

1 minute ago, eejm said:

Besides, men like him wouldn’t choose a servant as a mistress, he’d choose someone in his own social class.

Absolutely not a servant, but rather a "demimonde". 

A relationship with someone with one's own class must be secret as it could cause problems.  

[Melina22]

16 minutes ago, blackwing said:

Julian Fellowes made it clear that the Russells are considered protagonists in this show,

Wow, really? That's so surprising! I can't say I agree with him. I find them quite repugnant. 

[MerBearHou]

I thought Agnes stopped pushing John Adams for Marian because John was so uninterested in Marion when they met in the first episode.  

[eejm]

5 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Absolutely not a servant, but rather a "demimonde". 

A relationship with someone with one's own class must be secret as it could cause problems.  

Are you saying Turner is a courtesan?  Maybe in her dreams.  She’s not that charming or educated.

Affairs among the upper classes with their peers was very common in that time.

Edited February 9, 2022 by eejm

[dmc]

10 minutes ago, eejm said:

Are you saying Turner is a courtesan?  Maybe in her dreams.  She’s not that charming or educated.

Affairs among the upper classes with their peers was very common in that time.

Agreed she is not a courtesan, she is just a prettier Mrs. Obrien.  But Mrs. Obrien was smarter and better at schemes.

I could absolutely tell the Russells are supposed to be protagonists.  They aren't but I can tell they are supposed to be.  These two are the worst.  

And I think it may be the acting not the writing which makes sense...because while Julian may have wanted them to be protagonists they are being played like antagonists.

not that its bad acting but it seems like the actors are making the choice to play them that way...but neither character is being played with any chinks in the armor so to speak...

Edited February 9, 2022 by dmc

[Sarah 103]

25 minutes ago, eejm said:

Besides, men like George wouldn’t choose a servant as a mistress, he’d choose someone in his own social class.

I agree he wouldn't choose a servant for his mistress, but there are more options than a servant or someone from his own class. I am horrible with math, but I think this is about the era when John F. Kennedy's grandfather on his mother's side (Rose Fitzgerald's father-Honey Fitz) would have been having affairs with chorus girls, so someone from the world of entertainment is also a possibility. 

[blackwing]

26 minutes ago, Melina22 said:

Wow, really? That's so surprising! I can't say I agree with him. I find them quite repugnant. 

Yes, after the credits of the second episode they had these mini "behind the scene" snippets, and Fellowes was basically gushing about what a boss move it was for Russell to buy out the bazaar and how he did it for his wife, and showed his power.  Or something like that.

25 minutes ago, MerBearHou said:

I thought Agnes stopped pushing John Adams for Marian because John was so uninterested in Marion when they met in the first episode.  

Ah yes, that's right.  He didn't seem interested, and then we found out later at the end that it's because he is gay.  He seems about Oscar's age, in his early to mid 30s, I'm curious to understand why his family, the esteemed Adamses, wouldn't be more eager to push him into marriage and produce more progeny to continue the family line.  Seems like it could be a good solution to marry him to Marian.  Then he and Oscar have more reasons to hang out so often.

[MissLucas]

44 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

That happens in 19th century fiction where the aim was to paint the upper class black. Irl, however, at least some aristocrats took care of their offspring born outside marriage, paying studies or helping to find jobs for sons and arranging marriages for daughters. That happened especially in cases when the relationship with their mother had been long but they couldn't marry because of their different station.  

As for the maid, why on earth would she want to become swiftly pregnant? A far better aim would be to become a mistress of a rich man who would give her a house, servants, money clothes, jewels.   

Yeah, some aristocrats took care of their offspring but those were likely children of their mistresses not servants. But a simple maid was left to her own devices even in the 20th century and not just in aristocratic households btw. The middle-classes (Bourgeoisie) had also servants and there are enough social history studies dedicated to the topic  of sexual exploitation/abuse of female servants to prove that this is not simple black painting of a single class.  

Of course Turner does not want to get pregnant swiftly - nobody claimed that. Doesn't mean it could not happen. She probably aims for becoming mistress but even that is delusional. 

[kristen111]

On 2/8/2022 at 1:57 PM, izabella said:

I'm curious about Mrs. Chamberlain's child.  Should be an adult by now, right?  Where is s/he?  She's always alone.  Is her husband still alive? 

That’s going to be another juicy story.  Can’t wait.  Every week another surprise.

[blackwing]

On 2/8/2022 at 12:57 PM, izabella said:

I'm curious about Mrs. Chamberlain's child.  Should be an adult by now, right?  Where is s/he?  She's always alone.  Is her husband still alive? 

 

5 minutes ago, kristen111 said:

That’s going to be another juicy story.  Can’t wait.  Every week another surprise.

This is Julian Fellowes... if there is a season 2 of this show, I'm calling it right now, one of the maids is the child.  The child was given away for adoption after the scandal and doesn't know she is a Chamberlain.  My money is on Bridget, the young one in the Van Rhijn house who went on a not-date with footman.  Or Miss Turner, Mrs. Russell's lady's maid who has her eye on Russell.

[Hiyo]

Quote

The show has yet to answer the question as to why Bertha is so intent on instantly making herself a part of "old New York".  It was mentioned that the Morgans, Roosevelts and Vanderbilts are starting a new opera house.

And those families pushed just as hard to become a part of "old New York".

Quote

A relationship with someone with one's own class must be secret as it could cause problems.  

As opposed to banging his maid out in the open?

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, eejm said:

Are you saying Turner is a courtesan?  Maybe in her dreams.  She’s not that charming or educated.

Affairs among the upper classes with their peers was very common in that time.

I meant that if Mr Russell wants a mistress, he should chose a courtesan - not a servant like Turner.

Affairs among the upper class were common, but they must be kept in secret not to endanger the lady's reputation. An affair with a courtesan was much better - and they weren't a threat to the wife, unless the man spent all his fortune. 

 

[Roseanna]

2 minutes ago, Hiyo said:

And those families pushed just as hard to become a part of "old New York".

As opposed to banging his maid out in the open?

Sleeping with a maid wouldn't interest anybody - save the wife.  

[kristen111]

4 hours ago, JenE4 said:

You’re just like me. I get so distracted by the set design and the wardrobe that I forget to pay attention to the dialogue. I just wish your screen grab was just a tinge wider to show the five glasses each diner had at their place setting! I spent that whole scene trying to figure out what could have been in each glass (aside from the obvious red wine and water) and paying attention to who drank what. Everyone seemed to be going for the wine or the water. I guess the other cocktail glasses were for different courses? Later on, I almost missed the entire proposal because I was so intrigued by the Statue of Liberty hand and torch! So many gorgeous dresses this episode, too! … As for the action? I guess a lot of things also occurred!

Lol, and I’m seeing lots of China my Mother left me, and some of mine that I don’t put out anymore.  Beautiful bowls and flower holders.  Years ago I did the works.  Linen tablecloth, candles, fine China, crystal glasses, etc.  Now, it’s Corelle.  Non breakable.  Less company.

 

 

[Hiyo]

Quote

Sleeping with a maid wouldn't interest anybody - save the wife.  

Sure it would have interested, people loved their gossip back then.

[eejm]

12 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Sleeping with a maid wouldn't interest anybody - save the wife.  

People looking to further discredit the Russells might be interested, especially if there was some sort of scandal attached.

[Melina22]

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

Fellowes was basically gushing about what a boss move it was for Russell to buy out the bazaar and how he did it for his wife, and showed his power.  Or something like that.

Fellowes is very talented in many ways, but I don't think we'd be kindred spirits. 😁

[Cheezwiz]

19 hours ago, Melina22 said:

Meanwhile, maybe it's sacrilege, but despite how much I've admired Carrie as an actress, I don't like her in this part. She plays ambitious and status-driven without any humour or charm or mischievousness. Realistic? Probably. But not that entertaining. 

The is the first and only thing I've ever seen her in, and frankly, based on this, I'm not understanding the hype and high praise surrounding her. Her affect is completely flat at all times - there doesn't seem to be any shading or nuance, which is probably due in large part to the writing. 

[Sarah 103]

If Mrs. Chamberlain's child is a son, than he is probably working and has a life/home of his own. We have only see her during the daytime at women's events.

Ada mentioned the child was adopted into the family, but everyone knew the child was born out of wedlock, so that would indicate the child was raised as a member of the Chamberlain family.

If the child was a daughter, she may have married someone and moved out of state. Old New York Money with a scandal may have been easier to start over with money in a new place. 

[MBayGal]

17 hours ago, mojito said:

George should've gotten all the men to kneel before him and maybe do worse...

Boar on the floor, boar on the floor!!  {Succession reference}

[dmc]

16 minutes ago, Melina22 said:

Fellowes is very talented in many ways, but I don't think we'd be kindred spirits. 😁

LOL 

[BusyOctober]

I’m not sure if it’s the writing or the directing, but I cannot warm up to 98% of these characters.  I have seen many of the actors in other tv shows and a few on Broadway, and they were spectacular.  Are these talented, capable actors being told to dim their sparkle for some reason?  Or to speak in monotone, low energy voices with cold dead eyes? Yes, the Gilded Age was repressive and one’s  comportment and modulated voice was being judged constantly. It was a time full of snobs who used complex etiquette and social mores as weapons to embarrass and shame those they considered unworthy.  However, even Downton Abbey’s Violet was witty and snarky and crackled with energy despite being a member of the British peerage and living through the Victorian Age. 

I have enjoyed most of Julian Fellows work over the years as well, and this was on my watch list ever since I had heard he was doing an American period piece.  I am having a very hard time getting into this show.  I am enjoying the scenery, the costumes and set design, so those are what I look forward to most.

Marion needs to zip her lip and take a seat at these various charity committees.  I think the goal is to make us see her some kind of “new age” young woman,  embracing new ideas and politics and challenging the old guard.  But this actor’s portrayal of Marion is not giving me that.  She’s just annoying. 

 

[JenE4]

1 hour ago, kristen111 said:

Lol, and I’m seeing lots of China my Mother left me, and some of mine that I don’t put out anymore.  Beautiful bowls and flower holders.  Years ago I did the works.  Linen tablecloth, candles, fine China, crystal glasses, etc.  Now, it’s Corelle.  Non breakable.  Less company.

 

 

After a couple holidays of taking two days to hand-wash the antique china etc that my grandmother gave me, I’ve since switched to paper/plastic goods! And these people do this every night! No wonder why they need a full staff! Maybe just grab the third or fourth or fifth glass upon request. Certainly not everyone is going to have all 5 beverages in one meal every night?! 

[blackwing]

1 hour ago, Sarah 103 said:

If Mrs. Chamberlain's child is a son, than he is probably working and has a life/home of his own. We have only see her during the daytime at women's events.

Ada mentioned the child was adopted into the family, but everyone knew the child was born out of wedlock, so that would indicate the child was raised as a member of the Chamberlain family.

If the child was a daughter, she may have married someone and moved out of state. Old New York Money with a scandal may have been easier to start over with money in a new place. 

29 minutes ago, Shermie said:

I was actually confused by the whole “they ‘knew’ each other”, “baby was too large”, “claim of adoption” thing. I mean, which was it? Did Mrs. Chamberlain get pregnant before marriage and claim the baby was premature, thus the baby was too large? Or did she get pregnant before marriage and secretly have the baby, and then claim it was adopted?

It was pretty clear to me.  Ada was being discreet and didn't want to just outright tell Marian, because of social norms I suppose, and I guess respectable women should not speak of these things .  But she said that Mrs. Chamberlain and her husband "knew" each other prior to marriage.  That obviously means they slept together before they got married, which was apparently scandalous for the time. 

Then she said that they had a child, and the child was "older than it should have been".  Meaning the child was born less than 9 months after they got married.  So it was obvious that Mrs. Chamberlain was pregnant before they got married.  Bad enough that they slept together before marriage, but she actually got pregnant.  Double whammy.

Ada did not say the child was adopted into the family.  What she said was that the Chamberlains tried to claim that the child was adopted.  But everyone else did the math and knew better.

I still think that after the scandal, it's possible that the Chamberlains gave the baby up for adoption in order to at least somewhat remain in society.  Even though nobody talks to her, she isn't refused admission to these society events.  So it's possible that if she gave the baby up for adoption, she wouldn't be completely shut out of society.  It would be a very Fellowes-like thing to do to have a secret baby turn up out of nowhere.  I seem to remember speculation on Downton Abbey that Thomas was the secret son of Miss O'Brien, and it's possible that the show may have ended up going this route, but the actress quit the show.

1 hour ago, Cheezwiz said:

The is the first and only thing I've ever seen her in, and frankly, based on this, I'm not understanding the hype and high praise surrounding her. Her affect is completely flat at all times - there doesn't seem to be any shading or nuance, which is probably due in large part to the writing. 

Agreed, I've never seen Carrie Coon before either.  But I understand that her fans are rabid about her and act like she is the greatest thing since sliced bread.  I think she's terrible here... her performance is one note and all she has to do is speak in a monotone.  I get that this is the writing, but I'm not seeing anything spectacular.

 

[SailorGirl]

3 hours ago, blackwing said:

 My money is on Bridget, the young one in the Van Rhijn house who went on a not-date with footman.  

Isn't she the one with the Irish accent, who wasn't happy about Peggy working for Agnes -- I believe she said the equivalent of "they're going to take away our jobs." ??

If she's first-generation Irish, she can't be Mrs. Chamberlain's daughter. . . 

Edited February 9, 2022 by SailorGirl

[Melina22]

2 hours ago, blackwing said:

I get that this is the writing, but I'm not seeing anything spectacular.

In The Leftovers, Carrie was fantastic as an intense, angsty kind of person. In The Sinner, she was amazing as an intense, enigmatic cult person.

I've never seen her in anything frothy or funny - I don't think that's her wheelhouse. For this show, they need someone with a lighter touch, intense but also charismatic and witty. (More Desperate Housewives than Leftovers.) 

Then again, maybe with the right writing and direction she could be hilarious, in a dry, biting kind of way. 

[CarpeFelis]

5 hours ago, BusyOctober said:

It was a time full of snobs who used complex etiquette and social mores as weapons to embarrass and shame those they considered unworthy.  However, even Downton Abbey’s Violet was witty and snarky and crackled with energy despite being a member of the British peerage and living through the Victorian Age. 

Lady Violet’s position in the aristocracy was precisely the reason she could get away with saying outrageously snarky things!

I wish there would be more of Gladys and less of Marian. Marian is a clueless little milquetoast while Gladys is blackmailing her governess! (I find that forgivable because, as was pointed out in the episode, Gladys is an adult who shouldn’t even have a governess anymore.) I get that Marian is supposed to be innocent and a bit naive, but it seems like the show wants us to think she’s smart. But failing to read the room as often as she has just makes her look dumb and completely lacking in subtlety.

Marian’s costuming really plays this up. I couldn’t help noticing the contrast between Peggy’s absolutely gorgeous purple outfit and Marion’s dull-as-dishwater yellow dress in this episode. Given that it seems to blend right in with her hair and complexion, she sort of disappears. Peggy’s hat was much prettier, too.

So Mr. Morris has taken the coward’s way out. What exactly was he expecting to happen to his wife and children? If he lost everything, there’d be nothing to leave them. (Granted, his wife has been such a complete bitch I’d enjoy seeing her have to muck out stables… not that that would actually happen.)

Edited February 10, 2022 by CarpeFelis
typo

[Shermie]

Quote

Ada did not say the child was adopted into the family.  What she said was that the Chamberlains tried to claim that the child was adopted.  But everyone else did the math and knew better.

But if the baby was adopted, as the Chamberlains claimed, what math is there to do? What would it matter if the child was older than their marriage, since it was (supposedly) adopted? “Doing the math” is only relevant if the Chamberlains claimed the baby was born to them. Taking the “we adopted a baby” is supposed to do away with any busybodies doing any math. Annoyingly, busybody church ladies still do the math these days. 

I gotta say, this is the most pristine 19th century town I’ve ever seen. No dirt, no dust, no mud. They did show a token shit-shoveler in one scene, so I guess there’s that.

I just love Mr. Russel’s voice, like smooth velvet. 

Seeing the previously’s, I wondered what the Russels did with all the stuff George purchased at the bazaar. Did it go to the poor too? This place will have the most hoity-toity poor people around, dining on lobster salad and wiping their mouths with lace handkerchiefs as they cool themselves with jewelled fans. I guess this goes with the pristine streets. 

[sistermagpie]

32 minutes ago, CarpeFelis said:

Marian’s costuming really plays this up. I couldn’t help noticing the contrast between Peggy’s absolutely gorgeous purple outfit and Marion’s dull-as-dishwater yellow dress in this episode. Given that it seems to blend right in with her hair and complexion, she sort of disappears. Peggy’s hat was much prettier, too.

 

I have to admit, I liked that yellow dress a lot. She looked like lemon cream. But she's lucky for those somehow pristine streets in that dress!

That said, while I think the women look pretty enough in the clothing, it looks so uncomfortable to me it's sometimes distracting. Especially those lace tops Marian wears that are so form fitting. Seems like you'd feel like a prisoner in it.

 

[Adgirl]

On 2/7/2022 at 8:22 PM, Brn2bwild said:

I know we're supposed to be so impressed with the Russells, be all "You made that alderman kill himself. You go!" but this episode made me hope they would eventually hit their limits.  When the lesson of every episode is that money always wins for you whatever you want, the world takes on a cynical, empty shape.  I find Mr. Russell hot, but I don't like him, nor Mrs. Russell.  I want their "victories" to come at some cost to themselves.

No the lesson is don't discriminate against people for ridiculous things like their money not being old enough. Truth be told "old" money back then had roots in slavery and later slums. 

The whole time I was watching I kept cheering George Russell on "Ruin Them". I don't like bullies and Mrs Morris is a bully. 

I bet the Morgans and Vanderbilts won't try and cheat George.

I'm glad I won't have to watch another Ms O'brien cause a miscarriage because this butler seems much more on top of things.  I like this downstairs a lot more than Downton's no tragic Bates or horrible Thomas please for the love of all things. 

If the young Miss Russell were a bit more sophisticated she'd see that marriage to Oscar would be a kind of freedom she'll never know even if she marries for love.

 

 

Edited February 10, 2022 by Adgirl

[Brn2bwild]

1 minute ago, Adgirl said:

No the lesson is don't discriminate against people for ridiculous things like their money not being old enough.  I don't think it's either/or.

The entire I was watching I kept cheering George Russell on "Ruin Them". I don't like bullies and Mrs Morris is a bully. 

So is George Russell.

[AntFTW]

11 hours ago, brillia79 said:

I’m not crying for old money. They’ve likely destroyed many in the same way they tried to destroy George Russell. 

Charles Fane admits to Aurora he's done this at least a few times before. When Aurora asks why didn't he see it coming (referring them being on the losing side of this deal), he says to her "because it's always worked before."

[AntFTW]

1 hour ago, Brn2bwild said:

So is George Russell.

Yes, George is a bully. However, George is a bully in business. George has been nice to those who have been nice to him. He was polite to the Morrises when the Russells invited them for dinner. George maintained that politeness despite Mrs. Morris's smarmy and snarky comments.

The Morrises are bullies in everything.

[Adgirl]

Quote

So is George Russell.

I know shitty people don't think they should suffer the consequences for their actions but those people are probably the bullies who haven't been punched back yet.

[AntFTW]

1 minute ago, Adgirl said:

I know shitty people don't think they should suffer the consequences for their actions but those people are probably the bullies who haven't been punched back yet.

This basically sums up the entire episode.