Figure Skating

[Lady Whistleup]

Vincent's message to fans:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CZrh0jbgDYU/

[Jeddah]

I definitely cried watching Vincent’s video. Talking to his younger self? Tears running down my face! He was so great at Skate America, and I really wanted him to recapture that magic at the Olympics. I’m sad he doesn’t get to skate, but also sad that he doesn’t get to stand on the podium and get his silver medal. Yesterday should have been the happiest day of his skating career, and instead it’s the worst. Are they just going to hand him his medal in a box when he finally leaves his sad quarantine hotel room? I hope he’s feeling okay. It doesn’t seem like he’s too sick in the video, and I hope it stays that way. I hope Vincent goes to Worlds and skate lights out.

[cmahorror]

I'm not against jumps but I want them to be incorporated into the artistry of the sport. I really felt that Kamila's short program was a perfect example of artistry and athleticism. The program was beautiful and she also had a lot of jumps but they melded together into a cohesive program. 

Last night she lost all that artistry and it was more like a kid jumping up and down and going "Look what I can do". It didn't fit the music and there was no cohesion between the artistry and the jumps. I understand that figure skating must evolve but that shouldn't come at the expense of the heart of the sport. Figure skating was basically ballet on ice. There was nothing balletic or graceful about Kamila's long program. Her short program was both balletic and graceful. 

There needs to be a return to the importance of the artistry of the program. Yes, there is rhythm dance but that is only for couples - there is nothing like that for single skaters. If they are so concerned about the jumps, we are getting closer to something like a slam dunk contest with the skaters going out and doing nothing but jumps for a few minutes. It's exciting at first but gets boring after a few people. By embracing jumps over artistry, you are losing what makes the sport special IMO - the melding of artistry and athleticism. 

[ChicksDigScars]

On 2/5/2022 at 9:48 PM, SeanC said:

Valieva is now the fourth woman (from the third nation) to land a triple Axel at the Olympics.

Woah! Seriously? Perhaps Tara and Johnny should have mentioned it....snark. Seriously, those two have the unique ability to make me root against 15 year old children, usually Russian ones, by drooling, fawning and over-annunciating their names (just Johnny on that one). 

Well, my thought are that if Nathan had skated the long, we wouldn't have been sweating the silver, but no harm, no foul, in the end. Upsetting the Russians for gold would have been a "do you believe in miracles" level kind of miracle. But it was sure nice to see them sweat and bitch about their scores.

Chock and Bates beating Vikki and Nikki? NICE!!! Fist pumping moment. I'm sure if H/D had been the only ones to do it, the ice would have cracked under the weight of all that sanctimony. Glad to see C/B also get the 10 points. I hope this bodes well for both teams in the Dance event. 

And how funny for G/P to go from Tangerine Terror to classic beauty. As pretty as they were, that disco outfit and Todd Parker/Boogie Nights porn 'stache were still was in the back of my mind.

I wonder if Kamila was so upset about her fall because she knew that Darth Tutberidze would withhold her nightly cheese cube meal (reference: Emily, Devil Wears Prada)

 

[healthnut]

5 minutes ago, absnow54 said:

NBC News confirms that no substitute can be named in Vincent's place (although they're citing his participation in the team event, and not the lottery deadline.)

I had forgotten about this but Plushenko skated in the team event in Sochi and withdrew from the men’s event. I thought he was replaced but he wasn’t and there was no Russian man in the individual event. I didn’t realize it was an actual rule. 

[lurkerbee]

1 hour ago, BlackberryJam said:

Figure skating is a sport. The competitors are athletes. I expect them to push the sport athletically. 

They are just feeling out quads, fitting them in, training them. Like with the men, things will settle in.

Figure skating is still trying to determine scoring, requirements and fairness in judging. The sport is evolving and, with some bumps along the way, improving. It's not perfect. It never was. Nostalgia for the good old days doesn't mean figure skating was better before. 

I’m not saying there shouldn’t be any quads and am not nostalgic for the good old days, I’m just saying quads are over-emphasized to the detriment of practically every other element. So many of the skaters who have quads are only watchable if they’re landing them. If the quads fall apart, there is nothing there.  

Also, what cmahorror said.

I’ve thought for a long time they should rename the sport anyway, since figures (boring to watch) left the building a long time ago.

Edited February 7, 2022 by lurkerbee

[iMonrey]

Quote

The pure athleticism and physical feats many of these skaters can achieve with quads and advanced jumps are amazing to watch and they deserve all the accolades for it. However,  this is no longer figure skating, it's become gymnastics on ice. 

I have a radical suggestion. My wish would be prohibiting quads in ladies' singles, and limiting the number of quads for men in the LP. I think that would go a long way towards making the sport less of a jump competition. Because it's quickly becoming just that. 

Quote

So I ask honestly, why not just expand disciplines to accommodate both sides of figure skating that have emerged in recent years? One more artistic and one more athletic. The upside being, even more figure skating categories. Would it be so bad? Am I just crazy? Either way, love watching these amazingly talented athletes compete! 

That's not a bad idea either. They could scrap the team event for all I care, I still think it's kind of dumb. But they could allow each skater to participate in the artistic program and the technical program. The artistic program(s) would limit the number and kinds of jumps and the technical would be . . . basically what it is now.

[Jeddah]

6 minutes ago, healthnut said:

I had forgotten about this but Plushenko skated in the team event in Sochi and withdrew from the men’s event. I thought he was replaced but he wasn’t and there was no Russian man in the individual event. I didn’t realize it was an actual rule. 

I’m starting to think the host country is cursed to only qualify one man. It’s happened at the last 3 Olympics, and Sochi ended up with none.

[choclatechip45]

21 minutes ago, Rootbeer said:

Possibly, but his current positive test has nothing to do with what he was doing in 2020.  With the Olympics approaching, I am sure everyone took precautions to a higher level.

I though his statement was classy and he did a good job trying to put it all in perspective including emphasizing that he's got a silver medal, no matter what.

That's Fair. I just thought it was a weird thing to say when there is proof otherwise.

[ChicksDigScars]

12 hours ago, Souris said:

Oh. There’s a snake on her back.

Nice that Eteri puts a self portrait on her skater's costumes, in case they forget that she's standing and watching across the rink. 

[redpencil]

I always feel like there are different kinds of artistry, and some people like some types and not others, which is totally fine. For example, I find Nathan very artistic; he just has his own style which some people don't prefer. I think men's definitely went through some growing pains, but there are plenty of skaters who have come out the other side of that. Women's may be going through it now for sure, though it's different as most of the skaters doing the quads currently come from the same place and the same coach.

With Valieva, I find her short program very artistic and beautiful. Her free skate not so much, which may be partly the quad attempts but also I just think she was given a terrible program. I think she's capable of a lovely free skate with the quads, she just doesn't have the right vehicle right now. I think a lot of the issues in the women's are because most of the ladies doing quads come from the same group with the same people creating the programs, and they're just not that good at the packaging. Once more ladies start to be able to do them, and there is more diversity in style, choreography, coaching, etc., I think that will improve things greatly. I'm just not sure how long that's going to take.

I personally would hate splitting the sport into different events, one for athletic skating or what have you and one for artistic. I probably wouldn't watch either one.

[Good Queen Jane]

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

Overall, her look was very bordello-like.

Maybe she got confused over the title of the music. 😏

[annzeepark914]

7 minutes ago, ChicksDigScars said:

Nice that Eteri puts a self portrait on her skater's costumes, in case they forget that she's standing and watching across the rink. 

@CDS: amen! I can still see that beast woman's glare at the 2018 Olympic gold medalist as she came off the ice. No hug, no welcoming smile for her skater (just because the "wrong" skater won it all). 

[Jeddah]

2 minutes ago, redpencil said:

 

I always feel like there are different kinds of artistry, and some people like some types and not others, which is totally fine. For example, I find Nathan very artistic; he just has his own style which some people don't prefer. I

 

I agree with this completely. Personally, I feel like the sport is more artistic then it’s ever been before. Hanyu and Nathan are very different skaters , but both amazing artistically and technically. Then add in guys like Shoma and Kolyada. They are not just their jumps. Such a variety of styles, but all beautiful skater. Jason has consistently been a top ten skater for years now, even if he’s not a medal contender. If artistry didn’t matter his career would have been over years ago.

[Lovecat]

30 minutes ago, redpencil said:

With Valieva, I find her short program very artistic and beautiful. Her free skate not so much, which may be partly the quad attempts but also I just think she was given a terrible program. I think she's capable of a lovely free skate with the quads, she just doesn't have the right vehicle right now.

Yeah, that free program is terrible.  It's like the choreographer just gave her 4.5 minutes of moves to a steady 4/4 beat and didn't even listen to the music.  There's an awful lot of arm waving and weird body contortions, too.  She never stops, and because the choreo is so disconnected from the music all it does is make my eyes tired.

[Minneapple]

45 minutes ago, ChicksDigScars said:

Nice that Eteri puts a self portrait on her skater's costumes, in case they forget that she's standing and watching across the rink. 

How can they forget, I'm sure the burning sensation from her eyes can be felt everywhere on the rink.

I agree about Kamila's long program. I liked her short program but the long program is completely disconnected from the music and doesn't flow well at all.

[Lady Whistleup]

One thing about Eteri is that they are simply "given" programs at the beginning of the season, and not allowed any input. The lack of connection you see from her skaters to the music probably stems from that -- they were simply told "you skate to this."

There's surprisingly little input across the board re: skaters and programs. I remember Michelle Kwan apparently not liking the programs she was given. Gracie Gold too. Usually the coach has a choreographer that he or she works with and programs are simply given out. 

It might be slightly different for ice dance.

As for Kamila's LP, I think it takes away from her best quality -- besides her jumping, she genuinely skates with a lot of speed and hits great spin positions. A program with more crescendos with the music would allow for that.

Edited February 7, 2022 by Lady Whistleup

[Crs97]

I think back in the day Brian Boitano worked intimately with Sandra, and it showed because her programs for him were lovely.  I do remember him saying once he met with someone who started outlining a program and he thought the person clearly didn’t understand skating with the suggestions made.

I think the attempt to make judging less subjective has hurt the artistry of the sport.  It’s so much easier to know whether a jump is landed correctly than to quantify musicality.  It also just gave skaters a “to do” list rather than interpret the music.  I still watch and appreciate the work they’ve put into it, but it isn’t the same and doesn’t bring me the joy it used to.

[GeminiDancer]

16 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

It might be slightly different for ice dance.

I think this is why I love Parsons/Green's free dance. I love that they choreographed it themselves. As much as I would have loved to have seen it at the Olympics, I'm looking forward to their development over the next quad.

I will also add, Jason Brown and Rohene Ward are a match made in heaven. I wish Ward choreographed his long program.

Edited February 7, 2022 by GeminiDancer

[BlackberryJam]

1 hour ago, lurkerbee said:

I’m not saying there shouldn’t be any quads and am not nostalgic for the good old days, I’m just saying quads are over-emphasized to the detriment of practically every other element. So many of the skaters who have quads are only watchable if they’re landing them. If the quads fall apart, there is nothing there.  

Also, what cmahorror said.

I’ve thought for a long time they should rename the sport anyway, since figures (boring to watch) left the building a long time ago.

If the athletes stop pushing, the sport stagnates. And it’s sport, not art. 

I LOVED figures. I want figures BACK. Figures forced skaters to focus on their technical skills. I thinking bringing figures back would greatly improve the quality of basic skating.

 

[carrier76]

22 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

How can they forget, I'm sure the burning sensation from her eyes can be felt everywhere on the rink.

I agree about Kamila's long program. I liked her short program but the long program is completely disconnected from the music and doesn't flow well at all.

Also, the intensity of that particularly cut of Bolero grew more and more oppressive as it went on. I felt like my head was being hammered.

[annzeepark914]

I still watch women's fs, but I get my skating enjoyment nowadays from ice dance.

[ShellsandCheese]

2 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

Anna and Sasha are 17 going on 18 and keeping their quads. Kamila is decently tall for a 15yo and looks as fit as a fiddle. I think people are going to find it hard to cling onto the narrative of "tiny Russians only jumping quads because they're tiny" in a few years. They've really moved on.

Nah. They'll find a way. LOL. And once the American ladies catch up we will never hear about these concerns again. A lot of the sentiment around here is just clearly anti-Russian and not out of actual concern for any of the skaters.

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

I have a radical suggestion. My wish would be prohibiting quads in ladies' singles, and limiting the number of quads for men in the LP.

There is no reason to bar women from attempting quads. Women athletes shouldn’t be held down technically.

[Avaleigh]

54 minutes ago, redpencil said:

I personally would hate splitting the sport into different events, one for athletic skating or what have you and one for artistic. I probably wouldn't watch either one.

I would hate it too. I'm ride or die for skating so I know I'd ultimately watch, but I'd definitely be sad if they did this because it would ruin a great sport.

True that everyone has their own idea of artistry because I think that Kamila is a very artistic skater. Maybe people are distracted by the quads because the commentators put so much emphasis on them, but Kamila is a textbook example of artistry and athleticism. 

I honestly find it baffling that people don't think Kamila is an artistic skater.

Kamila has speed, beautiful edges, line and posture. Her extension is exquisite. Her spins are fast, centered and inventive. She works the choreography all the way to her fingertips and gives her all to each performance. 

Fair enough that Bolero wasn't the right choice for her but even with the not so great choreography, she sells the hell out of the program. 

[absnow54]

3 minutes ago, SeanC said:

There is no reason to bar women from attempting quads. Women athletes shouldn’t be held down technically.

Apparently quads are banned in the ladies SP? Which I find odd. I do think they need to adjust the scoring so that falls on an element lose more points. A failed quad shouldn't score higher than a clean triple. 

 

[Jillibean]

I agree with those who feel that Kamila’s lack of artistry on her LP is really a choreography program. Bolero is also just the wrong choice for a 15 year old. Overall it’s a very disconnected experience, but I don’t think that’s Kamila’s fault. 

As for the jumping, there are enough people who complain that ice dancing shouldn’t be an Olympic sport because of the lack of jumps. For the other three disciplines it should be a balance. I feel like saying Kamila shouldn’t do quads is like saying Jason Brown should have to skate less artistically. What I WOULD like to see change is more of a penalty for a fall so that if you land two quads and fall on every other jump, you’re not mathematically still able to medal over someone who skated all triples, but cleanly. They shifted a bit more towards this since 2018, but I think they need to shift even further. If you fall (especially more than once) it should be a big deal. It shouldn’t be completely neutralized by the fact that you also landed a few hard jumps. Trusova’s style of almost 50/50 with the logic that if she lands half she can fall on the other half is very unappealing to me. 

I feel terrible for Vincent, and I’m very anxious for our other skaters. To me, this is very clearly a huge problem, because the fact is—he got it from somewhere. Someone in this supposedly protected bubble is spreading this and that means everyone is at risk. It seems so unfair to the athletes to go through all these hoops  to get there and be in an allegedly protected environment and then, oops! Well clearly we missed a person! I feel like I’m going to be anxious every day now about more people getting it. 

[absnow54]

1 hour ago, redpencil said:

I personally would hate splitting the sport into different events, one for athletic skating or what have you and one for artistic. I probably wouldn't watch either one.

I wouldn't mind if they did individual medals for the SP and FS. Have the SP favor the athletic skaters who can perform the hardest elements and check off all the compulsory boxes, while the FS allow component scores to reward artistry over quads. 

[Avaleigh]

17 minutes ago, SeanC said:

There is no reason to bar women from attempting quads. Women athletes shouldn’t be held down technically.

Agreed. So basically the ladies shouldn't be allowed to do what the men can do? How is that fair? 

Why try to keep the sport from advancing technically? The PCS are there specifically to keep the sport from being all about jumps. Now, yes, there are some things that I would change about the COP and values for certain elements but I don't think banning certain jumps is the answer.

The funny thing is people had the same fears and complaints about triple jumps once upon a time. There was a lot of discussion about what would happen to the sport once school figures were no longer part of the equation. People were worried about skaters like Midori and Tonya. There were even concerns about Michelle Kwan early in her career doing seven triple jumps in a program when ladies had previously been able to win with only five. Sports progress and it should be okay for them to progress. 

6 minutes ago, Jillibean said:

I feel like saying Kamila shouldn’t do quads is like saying Jason Brown should have to skate less artistically. What I WOULD like to see change is more of a penalty for a fall so that if you land two quads and fall on every other jump, you’re not mathematically still able to medal over someone who skated all triples, but cleanly. They shifted a bit more towards this since 2018, but I think they need to shift even further. If you fall (especially more than once) it should be a big deal. It shouldn’t be completely neutralized by the fact that you also landed a few hard jumps. Trusova’s style of almost 50/50 with the logic that if she lands half she can fall on the other half is very unappealing to me. 

Yes to your entire post but especially this bit in bold. At the 2021 world championships every medalist in the ladies event fell. The ladies who placed 4th and 5th had clean programs. That shouldn’t be happening. 

[Sarahsmile416]

23 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

Agreed. So basically the ladies shouldn't be allowed to do what the men can do? How is that fair? 

Why try to keep the sport from advancing technically? The PCS are there specifically to keep the sport from being all about jumps. Now, yes, there are some things that I would change about the COP and values for certain elements but I don't think banning certain jumps is the answer.

The funny thing is people had the same fears and complaints about triple jumps once upon a time. There was a lot of discussion about what would happen to the sport once school figures were no longer part of the equation. People were worried about skaters like Midori and Tonya. There were even concerns about Michelle Kwan early in her career doing seven triple jumps in a program when ladies had previously been able to win with only five. Sports progress and it should be okay for them to progress. 

Yes to your entire post but especially this bit in bold. At the 2021 world championships every medalist in the ladies event fell. The ladies who placed 4th and 5th had clean programs. That shouldn’t be happening. 

This! I tend to agree about the overemphasis on jumps but definitely don’t think that the jumps, quads or otherwise, should be taken out - that is part of the joy I get out of watching figure skating - watching people do things I could never possibly do.  
 

I think, indeed, the problem exists that whether or not you fall, as long as you attempted the quad you get the credit for it.  There should be more of a deduction for it certainly.  Not every skater wants to do quads but right now with the current system, if you don’t do a quad and everyone else does, even if they all fell and you didn’t, you still won’t place as high as the person who fell on their attempt.  

[BlackberryJam]

24 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

Agreed. So basically the ladies shouldn't be allowed to do what the men can do? How is that fair? 

Why try to keep the sport from advancing technically? The PCS are there specifically to keep the sport from being all about jumps. Now, yes, there are some things that I would change about the COP and values for certain elements but I don't think banning certain jumps is the answer.

EXACTLY. We should not stop women in a SPORT from being more ATHLETIC. The values and the scoring is still settling in to find a sweet spot for deductions for falls and bonus for attempting harder skills. It's not there yet, but it's better than the old system of "she skated prettiest so I'm placing her with better ordinals."

This is one of my frustrations with gymnastics. Mens' floor involves no music, no creating a character, nothing like that, while women are shoved into the "be pretty" box with their routines/music/dance elements. It should be both with music or both without.  

[roughing it]

I know this is an unpopular opinion, but I enjoy the commentary of Johnny and Tara.  So much more than grumpy Uncle Dick Button and Scott/Sandra.  Tara and Johnny seem respectful of the skaters, respectful of the sport and I appreciate their knowledge.

[absnow54]

49 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

Yes to your entire post but especially this bit in bold. At the 2021 world championships every medalist in the ladies event fell. The ladies who placed 4th and 5th had clean programs. That shouldn’t be happening. 

I just looked it up, KV got 4.7 points for falling on her 4T (5.7-1 deduction.) The base value for a 3T is 4.2, so for an incomplete element, she received the equivalent of landing a 3T with a positive GOE of 1.5, before the 1 point deduction was factored in. Which is about the equivalent to what Sakamota got for a successfully landed 3S. That's not right.

[Lady Whistleup]

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I have a radical suggestion. My wish would be prohibiting quads in ladies' singles, and limiting the number of quads for men in the LP. I think that would go a long way towards making the sport less of a jump competition. Because it's quickly becoming just that. 

Why should quads be banned for women and not men? Female figure skaters are tough, tough athletes. If something is okay for men it should be okay for women. if you ban quads, ban them across the board, not just for women. That's just not respecting the level of athletic skill it takes to be a figure skater, regardless of sex.

[CharethCutestory]

7 hours ago, Lady Whistleup said:

To be fair ... Nathan Chen is the same way. His programs are basically jump, jump, jump some more. I actually think yhe backlash to women doing quads is sexist. Men have been doing quads for 30.years. 

I don't think women shouldn't be doing quads, I said its amazing and I think that ability should certainly continue to be featured competitively, but in my view its become troubling how large a divide has formed between a select few skaters and all the rest because of it. So it leads me to wonder, is it not better to expand it into another discipline? Maybe those who never would've gotten into figure skating will because they are more able to achieve the athletic elements than the artistic ones. Or maybe adjust the point system to encourage a more balanced program again? I know there are pros and cons to both options. I'm torn between thinking this is just how it goes and how the sport has always progressed, you are meant to push it to new limits VS. This has now become two sports in one competition and the essential artistry in figure skating has suffered too much for it. I don't think I'm alone and was curious what others thought. I appreciate the responses! 

I agree with you about Nathan Chen and his program. In my original post I failed to mention I see this discrepancy between athleticism and artistry in the men's division as well. Adam Rippon comes to mind who is a truly beautiful and talented skater but was always destined to be eclipsed due to being limited in his jumps, even though he still achieved a high level of difficulty that he executed almost always flawlessly. 

[cmahorror]

Let me be clear - I do not want to ban jumps, I enjoy them when they fit the program and are performed cleanly. A clean triple flip should be worth more than a fall on a quad flip - that's my issue.

Because a bad quad jump is worth more than a clean triple jump, there is no concern for making the jump part of the program. Let's throw in three quads - even if she falls on one, she will still win. That is wrong. A clean program with triples should score technically higher than one with quads and falls. 

And more jumps does not mean we have to lose the artistry of the sport. Again, I loved Kamila's short program and felt it was a wonderful blend of artistry and athletics. I just wish her long program had followed through the same way.

Edited February 7, 2022 by cmahorror

[Lady Whistleup]

2 minutes ago, cmahorror said:

Let me be clear - I do not want to ban jumps, I enjoy them when they fit the program and are performed cleanly. A clean triple flip should be worth more than a fall on a quad flip - that's my issue.

Because a bad quad jump is worth more than a clean triple jump, there is no concern for making the jump part of the program. Let's throw in three quads - even if she falls on one, she will still win. That is wrong. A clean program with triples should score technically higher than one with quads and falls. 

 

The issue is that you had skaters like Jill Trenary or Katarina Wiit who deliberately downgraded their jump contnet to "skate clean" and they were beating Midori Ito with the triple axel and triple-triples. The sport made a decision to value jumps more in that era. 

[Avaleigh]

9 minutes ago, roughing it said:

I know this is an unpopular opinion, but I enjoy the commentary of Johnny and Tara.  So much more than grumpy Uncle Dick Button and Scott/Sandra.  Tara and Johnny seem respectful of the skaters, respectful of the sport and I appreciate their knowledge.

The bias that Johnny has for the Russians across the disciplines is where I get frustrated with him as a commentator. Of course he's knowledgeable and can delivery interesting observations and commentary. (I preferred listening to Johnny and Tara at the Sochi Olympics and was rooting for them to replace Scott and Sandra.) But I really don't like how he glosses over the mistakes and issues with the Russians because he's certainly able to see the flaws in everyone else. He makes it so apparent that he thinks the Russians are superior in every way and not just with the ladies. Even when Chock and Bates won in the TE he had to make a comment about how the crowd preferred Vicki and Niki and how this was the first time he enjoyed Madison and Evan's free this season. 

Also, I've got to stand up for Dick Button. His commentary was typically spot on. Yeah, he started stumbling over his words towards the end of his career and would overuse certain phrases, but his commentary was a gift to the sport and I definitely miss it. 

[BlackberryJam]

Just now, cmahorror said:

Let me be clear - I do not want to ban jumps, I enjoy them when they fit the program and are performed cleanly. A clean triple flip should be worth more than a fall on a quad flip - that's my issue.

Because a bad quad jump is worth more than a clean triple jump, there is no concern for making the jump part of the program. Let's throw in three quads - even if she falls on one, she will still win. That is wrong. A clean program with triples should score technically higher than one with quads and falls. 

 

That's a problem with the Code of Points then. I admit that the COP needs adjusted, and they do keep adjusting it. As I said, they haven't found the sweet spot.

Again comparing to other sports, if someone completes the easiest possible dive perfectly, they shouldn't get as many points as the diver who completes a very difficult dive, but misses the entry. The entry isn't the entirety of the skill, so it shouldn't be the sole basis for the score. 

Jumps have more components to them than just the landing. The grade of execution for a jump is based on: 

• Unexpected / creative / difficult entry
• Clear recognizable steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element
• Varied position in the air / delay in rotation
• Great height and/or distance
• Superior extension on landing / creative exit
• Superior flow in and out (and in-between in jump combinations / sequences)

So maybe the base value of a quad needs lowered and the GOE level increased. 

[cmahorror]

3 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

So maybe the base value of a quad needs lowered and the GOE level increased. 

That would be a step in the right direction.

There is automatic 1-point deduction for falling on the ice so if the base value was lower, the 1-point deduction might put the points earned below a clean triple of the same type of jump.

[Guest]

I go back and forth on this.  I don't think we should be banning quads for women to hold women back, but there have been so many injuries based on trying to force their bodies to do something that isn't good for them - men and women. But women seem to be more prone to the injuries from overtraining the quad; but that probably isn't a highly studied number so it might be more correlation and less causation.  It's a similar argument to me about continuing to watch the NFL when we know more about CTE now. We know that the jumping, especially at a young age, is leading to these athletes being injured and needing hip replacements at 18 years old - at what point is it up to the sport to say "enough?" At what point is it up to us as the consumer to say "we can't support this?"

[iMonrey]

Quote

There is no reason to bar women from attempting quads. Women athletes shouldn’t be held down technically.

So should they be allowedto do backflips? And cartwheels? Why shouldn't there be some ground rules? This isn't gymnastics. 

I'm not aiming to penalize athleticism, I'm just trying to think of a way for skating to dial back from being the jumping contest it has turned into. There are already limits in place like how many times you can do a certain jump, etc. This isn't a no-holds barred, anything goes sport.

As for the men, my proposal is that they only be allowed to do 2 quads in the LP and one in the short. That way if they go out there an do a quad lutz and a quad flip it's still not enough points to win if the rest of their program is lousy. 

[Mittengirl]

I am curious as to the average age a boy starts to practice quads vs girls.  We already know that young girls who are training rigorously are delaying menarche and have issues with bone health/growth.  Do young boys suffer similar issues?  Health issues, both long and short term, should absolutely be at the forefront when talking about jumping differences in men’s vs ladies’ skating.  

[Lady Whistleup]

18 minutes ago, Mittengirl said:

I am curious as to the average age a boy starts to practice quads vs girls.  We already know that young girls who are training rigorously are delaying menarche and have issues with bone health/growth.  Do young boys suffer similar issues?  Health issues, both long and short term, should absolutely be at the forefront when talking about jumping differences in men’s vs ladies’ skating.  

Yes men absolutely have injuries. Tim Goebbel needed hip surgery and Nathan Chen says hip pain is constant. I'm very against denying females athletic abilities to make a sport prettier. Simone Biles or Midori Ito wouldn't have existed. 

[BlackberryJam]

49 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

So should they be allowedto do backflips? And cartwheels? Why shouldn't there be some ground rules? This isn't gymnastics. 

I'm not aiming to penalize athleticism, I'm just trying to think of a way for skating to dial back from being the jumping contest it has turned into. There are already limits in place like how many times you can do a certain jump, etc. This isn't a no-holds barred, anything goes sport.

As for the men, my proposal is that they only be allowed to do 2 quads in the LP and one in the short. That way if they go out there an do a quad lutz and a quad flip it's still not enough points to win if the rest of their program is lousy. 

Surya Bonaly did backflips and I had zero problem with it. However, it's apparently not that difficult a skill. Cartwheels would involve touching the ice with hands and I think that would be very prone to injury. But if someone wants to do an aerial, sure. Why not?

The jumps and their values are based upon difficulty. A Lutz jump didn't even exist until the skater, Lutz, invented it. There hadn't been Biellmann spin until Denise Biellmann came along and made it a thing. And so on. With each of these new skills, there came a change in scoring to value that skill. All of the skills that we see as basic now started with an athlete pushing the sport, lifts, twists, throws, jumps, spins, they are always changing.

I have no problem with a change to the Code of Points and a change in the values for Grade of Execution, it's just that figure skating is a sport, not a dance show. I don't want to do anything that moves it away from being considered a sport. 

 

[BlackberryJam]

1 hour ago, Avaleigh said:

Also, I've got to stand up for Dick Button. His commentary was typically spot on. Yeah, he started stumbling over his words towards the end of his career and would overuse certain phrases, but his commentary was a gift to the sport and I definitely miss it. 

I meant to comment on this and FAILED. I loved Dick Button's commentary. He understood the technicalities of the sport and what a jump/spin was supposed to look like. I remember he used to cringe at some of the layback spins.

Yes, he got old and cranky, but we all do. I'll take Tanith's clean commentary and explanation over Tara's squeals. Johnny can actually a good job when he's not putting on a show for the audience. 

[OnePlusOne]

1 hour ago, deaja said:

I go back and forth on this.  I don't think we should be banning quads for women to hold women back, but there have been so many injuries based on trying to force their bodies to do something that isn't good for them - men and women. But women seem to be more prone to the injuries from overtraining the quad; but that probably isn't a highly studied number so it might be more correlation and less causation.  It's a similar argument to me about continuing to watch the NFL when we know more about CTE now. We know that the jumping, especially at a young age, is leading to these athletes being injured and needing hip replacements at 18 years old - at what point is it up to the sport to say "enough?" At what point is it up to us as the consumer to say "we can't support this?"

Yes to all of this. The young Russian women (due to their coach's training methods) aren't being taught proper technique, which increases their chances of developing chronic problems. It's terrible for the sport, in my opinion, to turn into a constant revolving door of teenage girls, while never getting to see their talent evolve over time. I would've loved to see what Evgenia Medvedeva could've done with a career as long as Katarina Witt's or Michelle Kwan's, but that's not going to happen now. Athletes in other sports often compete in multiple Olympics; something isn't right if skaters increasingly become a "one and done" situation.

I agree that Kamila's short program was way better than her free skate. "Bolero" was a bad choice of music for her, the choreography was uninspired, and her costume unattractive. She's such a gifted skater, but I wish we could see what she could do with better programs and coaching/choreography.

59 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

Yes men absolutely have injuries. Tim Goebbel needed hip surgery and Nathan Chen says hip pain is constant. I'm very against denying females athletic abilities to make a sport prettier. Simone Biles or Midori Ito wouldn't have existed. 

Musical interpretation and artistry aren't just about being "pretty"--they're part of figure skating. Otherwise, they might as well get rid of the music and choreography altogether and just have the skaters run through a bunch of jumps. It's difficult to do intricate footwork. It's difficult to interpret music effectively while spinning and jumping.

The penalty for falls should absolutely be increased. If you're consistently falling on an element, you haven't really mastered it. Midori Ito landed most of her jumps and Simone Biles wasn't falling at the end of her tumbling passes.

[Avaleigh]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

So should they be allowedto do backflips? And cartwheels? Why shouldn't there be some ground rules? This isn't gymnastics. 

I'm not aiming to penalize athleticism, I'm just trying to think of a way for skating to dial back from being the jumping contest it has turned into. There are already limits in place like how many times you can do a certain jump, etc. This isn't a no-holds barred, anything goes sport.

As for the men, my proposal is that they only be allowed to do 2 quads in the LP and one in the short. That way if they go out there an do a quad lutz and a quad flip it's still not enough points to win if the rest of their program is lousy. 

It isn't a jumping contest though. As you mentioned, there are already rules in place to keep it from becoming one. We have the Zayak rule and backflips already aren't allowed to keep the sport from becoming gymnastics on ice. It's not like the sport went from having five jumping passes in the program to having fifteen or something. 

Now, if people wanted to create an event that was something like gymnastics on ice or rhythmic gymnastics on ice, I have no problem with it. I just don't want new rules put in place to keep the technical side of the sport down. 

To me we should be celebrating the achievements of skaters like Kamila and Anna. They work so hard and have accomplished so much in such a short amount of time. 

[jrzy]

On 2/5/2022 at 11:19 PM, Lady Whistleup said:

Kamila and her dog:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CXLgIFjI844/

She seems to be a nice young lady.

She is just a little girl, doing really grown up things. I hope the pressure doesn't get to her. I worry about all these young people 

 

[Lady Whistleup]

Just a reminder that there always were skaters who pushed the technical envelope:

 

This program is jaw-dropping more than 30 years later. Midori is not delicate. She is not artistic. She is one kickass athlete, and that was part of her appeal. Look at how huge her jumps were, how powerful her stroking was.

I actually find Generation 2 of Eteri's girls an improvement over Gen 1. Kamila, Anna, Aliona, etc. are technically stronger than Yulia Lipnitsakaya or Evgenia Medvedeva, and also more well-rounded as skaters.