S26.E03: Week 3

[Lamb18]

And garlic shrimp, too! I bet Shanae has garlic fingers!

By they way, Clayton tells Sarah she exceeds.all his expectations. Now that is the "5" category on my performance review!

[EllenB]

I'm not a lifeguard but I played one on TV.  About a hundred years ago.

Edited January 25, 2022 by EllenB

[DEL901]

LOL Shanae trying to explode Gabby’s head with her mind…or that’s what it looked like.  

[Ms Blue Jay]

Shanae (Kisses Clayton for 45 minutes): I don't know if Elizabeth saw it but I hope she did. 
LOL

[Amy Beth]

Somebody forgot that Clayton wasn’t choosing the winner!

[Lamb18]

Bachelor handshake X 2!

That is a long kiss.

Shanae says, "I'm back on top!" (In more ways than one).

[JenE4]

Unless Shananae keeps her character on her tonsils, I don’t think Clayton is going to find it, Elizabeth. But does she still have garlic shrimp breath?

[tennisgurl]

I’m just picturing that garlic shrimp breath now. 

[EllenB]

I can't believe not one of them said "Get a room!" during tonsilfest.

[Stats Queen]

I’m behind so just got the the stage “therapy” session. Clayton said he regretted putting up too many walls in his past relationship. Well, if it was his “relationship” with Michelle - they were just pillows for a fort, not too hard to break down.

[Lamb18]

Just now, JenE4 said:

Unless Shananae keeps her character on her tonsils, I don’t think Clayton is going to find it, Elizabeth. But does she still have garlic shrimp breath?

Probably, he was almost toppling over from mouth to mouth garlic infusion. As a bonus her garlic fingers went through his hair and touched his nipples!

Is this a coincidence that there is a commercial about Pamela Anderson right after this Baywatch competition?

[Stats Queen]

42 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Oh my god Susie too.

This is verbatim:

Susie:  I really like Clay-en.  I feel really good about our connection, and like, based on everything I've seen so far, and like our conversations, and like our physical chemistry, like, all of that has me wanting to be here til the very end.

This is mostly off topic, but the use of “like” on this franchise has bothered me so much. I’m a Georgia Bulldog, so of course I watched our championship parade and all the speakers. Several of the players spoke and none of them used the word “like” even once. Restored some hope that there is a possible future without the word like, unless it is used appropriately.

[EllenB]

Was telling Gabby that she's quirky the same as saying she's weird?

[Lamb18]

What is Gabby putting on him? He really can't put on a shirt after that, can he?

Well he's got a jacket on now, Shane's boring him about Elizabeth.

[tennisgurl]

“I’M NOT DRAMATIC!!!” She said dramatically. 

[rlc]

I can’t even hate on ShaNaNa ‘cause she’s straight up nuts.

[Lamb18]

Clayton sure likes putting his hand on people's legs, doesn't he?  Ha ha if he tried that with me it would be fuzzy feeling.

[Amy Beth]

Pro tip, Shanae 

Elizabeth isn’t your biggest competition.

 

[JenE4]

I don’t think poor Elizabeth even knows how or why Shanaenae made her the object of her ire. Elizabeth is just a nice, normal woman who somehow has an arch nemesis against her will. That must be so exasperating! What’s she supposed to say when Clayton inevitably asks her about it? This unstable woman is just making up a whole feud! This 2:1 has to come next week at this rate.

[Lamb18]

Maybe Jake from State Farm should be the next Bachelor.

[Ms Blue Jay]

5 minutes ago, rlc said:

I can’t even hate on ShaNaNa ‘cause she’s straight up nuts.

She reminds me of the old classic days of America's Next Top Model.  She's from another planet, from the reality television of the days of yore.  She's way out there.

This is sooooooo fucked up for Elizabeth.  Staying away from someone isn't bullying. Shenae is so manipulative and unhinged.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Ms Blue Jay

[tennisgurl]

Did Gabby ask Clayton to take his shirt off just to end that hideous outfit? 

[Ms Blue Jay]

It's hard for me to take Clayton seriously in this Greaser outfit.  LOL.  Why does he look like he's been standing in the rain for 10 minutes?

[Stats Queen]

49 minutes ago, Kiss my mutt said:

Oh yay, it’s Becca, said no one ever. 

Please stop trying to make fetch happen 

[SallyAlbright]

I like Clayton better in this episode where they let him talk a little bit more. I swear the first two weeks we only saw him make out and do very little speaking 😂

He is absolutely SO not my physical type, but I do think he seems like a nice guy who would be pleasant to hang out with. I couldn't say that for several of the previous Bachelors! 

I cannot take Shenae seriously. 

Edited January 25, 2022 by SallyAlbright

[Ms Blue Jay]

"No one's bullying you, we just don't like you.  That's different"

😆

[tennisgurl]

“No ones bullying you, we just don’t like you!” Do I have a new favorite?! 

Edited January 25, 2022 by tennisgurl

[Stats Queen]

It would be so nice if Clayton and bachelors before him weren’t so influenced by their smaller heads. The make out on the beach in front of the other women on the date was gross and disrespectful. It’s just me and I don’t even know how they feel comfortable doing a lot of things with a camera crew filming everything.

[Koalagirl]

Clayton should have gotten a spray tan for the show. That farmers tan look on the beach was severely unattractive. Has anyone figured out the strange necklace he was wearing?  

[SallyAlbright]

1 minute ago, Koalagirl said:

Clayton should have gotten a spray tan for the show. That farmers tan look on the beach was severely unattractive. Has anyone figured out the strange necklace he was wearing?  

That's how they attach the microphones when the people are shirtless or in swimwear. Everyone in Paradise wears that same little beaded "necklace." It's always distracting to me! 

[Stats Queen]

I think this might be the most conflict that Elizabeth has had to deal with in her life, I might agree with her on the points, but it’s a big no for me.

It seems like she really has never experienced real bullying before. This whole Elizabeth/shannane thing is too real housewives. Please, I need separation in my guilty reality TV pleasures. Stay in your own trashy lanes shows.

[EllenB]

17 minutes ago, Stats Queen said:

It would be so nice if Clayton and bachelors before him weren’t so influenced by their smaller heads. The make out on the beach in front of the other women on the date was gross and disrespectful. It’s just me and I don’t even know how they feel comfortable doing a lot of things with a camera crew filming everything.

It reminded me of Ben Flubnuts and Courtney hooking up in front of the other women.

[Koalagirl]

22 minutes ago, SallyAlbright said:

That's how they attach the microphones when the people are shirtless or in swimwear. Everyone in Paradise wears that same little beaded "necklace." It's always distracting to me! 

I’ve never noticed the necklaces before, or at least that big bead. I’ll have to remember to pay more attention next BIP.

[tinkerbell]

They must have arranged the "underwear date" ahead of time, to make sure they looked more like they were in swimsuits. 

[leocadia]

3 hours ago, Rightside said:

Clayton and Jesse still look too much alike. This is going to be a long season.

It keeps me on my toes, lol.  This week had me wondering why Clayton himself was delivering the date card.  I thought it was dumb for him to drop it off instead of just reading it until I realized it was actually Jesse.

Note to show:  Putting Kaitlyn in a suit does not make her any more believable as a "therapist"--especially when she's essentially leading a game of "I never".

A lot of these people have vocal fry, but there is something about Gabby's voice that is extra annoying.  I haven't been able to pinpoint what it is, but whenever she speaks I get immediately irritated.

[CrazyDog]

That jacket or Shanae, who was the biggest villain tonight?

She is kind of deranged, and not in a fun way. But in a "when will see her as the subject of a Dateline investigation" way. Damn.

Poor Elizabeth. Even in Clayton's simple bachelor head, there's rarely a winner when someone goes complaing to the lead.

I'm still trying to understand the forced trauma date with one(?) question followed by the scavenger hunt(?) that mainly involved running around LA in their underwear for some reason. 

The security guard lady laughing and raising her hands in a "wtf" fashion while Clay-un was singing was my MVP though.

I'm jealous of the Van Gogh exhibit date though, and I'm sure it was fully appreciated and absorbed. Lol. 

Some of these women just showed up, right? There's been a Sarah all along? Huh.

[chocolatine]

I'm more than happy with Cassidy leaving, but to be fair, I'm sure at least half of the contestants on every season have casual hookups before they leave to film the show. Most of them are just more discreet about it.

I hate to say this, but time (and needless plastic surgery) has not been kind to Nicole Eggert. I thought she was so pretty in the early seasons of Baywatch, before she started trying to look like Pamela Anderson.

4 hours ago, Stats Queen said:

It would be so nice if Clayton and bachelors before him weren’t so influenced by their smaller heads. The make out on the beach in front of the other women on the date was gross and disrespectful. It’s just me and I don’t even know how they feel comfortable doing a lot of things with a camera crew filming everything.

It looked to me like Clayton was trying to gracefully extricate himself from that kiss, but Shanae attached herself to him like a barnacle. I'm sure that kiss was just as uncomfortable for him as it was for the other women.

2 hours ago, tinkerbell said:

They must have arranged the "underwear date" ahead of time, to make sure they looked more like they were in swimsuits. 

That was definitely not the "underwear" that Sarah had been wearing under her romper, at least not the top. The romper had spaghetti straps and a low-cut back, so she had to have been wearing one of those stick-on bras, or no bra at all.

I can't believe that Clayton is wasting time calling out everyone who Shanae claimed has bullied her. Surely he must see by now that the common denominator in all the drama is Shanae?

The dedication to Clint at the end was a nice touch.

Edited January 25, 2022 by chocolatine

[Hip-to-be-Square]

Oh Clayton- you bore me to tears, but your beefy football player thighs do it for me! 

[alexa]

I am just so over how this show spends all of the episode on who they decide is the villain.  I miss seeing some actual relationships form versus the narration of one person the entire episode.

[jackjill89]

I wish that the women had all spilled on Clayton when he came back to the group on that date. They could have just all said that Shanae is freaking nuts, there's no bullying, we just don't like her and finished this whole thing. This is so tiresome.

The underwear part of the scavenger hunt was so stupid. Why do they need to run around in their underwear? They absolutely got matching skivvies for them and a OK for public bra for Sarah. The tiny straps on her dress didn't allow for much of a bra.

 

 

[nickp1991]

2 weeks ago it was Hilary Duff from Lizzie McGuire & now this week we got Nicole Eggert from Baywatch

[phlebas]

If he was going to only let one villain go, he picked the wrong one.  Cassidy was awful but compared to Shanae, she was entertaining. 

Looks like next week is all Nae Nae, all the time.  This will be a struggle.

[TheFinalRose]

I want to say ShaNaeNae was raised by wolves, but even wolves wouldn't let one of their cubs eat all the shrimp. Also, the shame of Clayton having to meet up with Cassidy and have their sit down talk in the bathroom when there are no less than ten hundred pillow-strewn, candle-lit places in the mansion to sit and talk. These contestants don't look that "in-love" yet with Clayton. Sure, he's nice, but he is just okay handsome, he didn't have a huge exposure on Michelle's season, so he's basically some oaf they wheeled in as a place filler. Both Hilary Duff and Kaitlyn had to preface their opening remarks with comments that Clayton is a really good guy who loves kittens/puppies/children which is a pretty sad state of events which they would never have to do if the Bachelor was Tyler Cameron.

 

 

 

Edited January 28, 2022 by TheFinalRose

[Rainsong]

TS Eliot wrote ‘April is the cruellest month’ but we can only surmise that Eliot never tried the crowdsourced stunt known as Dry January. If he had, then he might have identified with those of us scraping by in the cold gloom with nothing but morning coffee to fuel our imaginations. It is, admittedly, much harder to insert tongue in cheek at 7 AM watching the playback than it is at 10 PM after a Talisker or two.

It also means we can’t blame demon rum for our lapses in memory. After an idle fortnight many of the women’s names have been forgotten. The women are suited and booted – it’s a rose ceremony.  And roses grow in soil. Dirt. Which is exactly what’s being dished on Cassidy (oh yes – her) and the rather flimsy, scripted controversy of a hometown boyfriend. Participating in The Bachelor to make someone jealous is akin to jumping in a swimming pool to demonstrate how sharply your trousers are creased. There might be some demonstrable effect but when Cassidy is one of two dozen women her odds are long, even with a rose at present.

Consensus is usually thin on the ground in The Mansion™ but there are heads nodding all round that Clayton ‘deserves to know the truth.’ This sort of altruism is tarnished by the obvious fact that it's a tactic to eliminate a rival. Kate may want to take a ventriloquist dummy along with her for entertainment purposes when she shows properties as she has mastered the art of talking through her nose. In footage apparently edited out of sequence with a rusty axe, Cassidy lords it over the rest.

Kate’s a trooper though. Only Kate and one other lady have the patience to remain in the parlor to listen to Cassidy’s tiresome self-praise.  As Cassidy speaks, another Bachelorette (later confirmed as Rachel) is dancing bizarrely in the background. The sustained bass notes mean trouble as Cass is summoned and just HAPPENS to leave the coveted rose on the table. Foreshadowing!

‘I know what you’re going to say,’ declares Cassidy who nevertheless reacts with feigned surprise to Clayton’s question. Clayton seems to think that being The Bachelor means he’s not only presented with single women but with vestal virgins. No pre-show dating permitted at any time. Cassidy is trotting out all the tricks – nodding of head, deep sighs etc. To be fair she does maintain eye contact throughout but sociopaths are convincing that way.  Less convincing is the story that’s changed three times in 30 seconds. First there was nobody. Then nobody became a friend. Now it’s a relationship that was going nowhere.  If this is an alibi, we’d hate to see a confession! And now they’re both doing laps around the property with crews scrambling to shoulder their cameras. ‘He’s overwhelmed,’ says Ency. But why pursue or endure a drama queen when 20 (?) undramatic (at present) women are waiting patiently?

Shanae claims ‘I didn’t hear any of that’ and she may be inadvertently telling the truth as she’s busy waging her own psychological campaign. Contestants and audience are united in their relief at seeing the big black SUV and hearing the slamming of the door. Enough of the hangdog looks, Clayton. You’ve successfully pulled a burr off your wool sock. Now march on. ‘The poison is gone’ one girl suggests. Camera cuts to Shanae. Or is it?

Clayton’s back and he dispels any remaining illusions that he’s a fun-lovin’ dude. He’s merely a self-pitying misery guts and this rose ceremony has all the positive vibe of a fraternity hazing. We can understand long faces in the latter rounds but the smiles have disappeared already and it’s early still. Clayton is going for the non-threatening, unworldly women – and, of course, the two remaining bloodsport combatants who just happen to be the last two chosen on the night.

Clayton, our opinion was already slipping but if you’re sending a sassy looker who also has cocktails secreted in her, er, cocktail dress home then we are even more disappointed. She’s a potential maneater who should keep the calendar clear for a trip to Mexico. The no-hopers and also-rans are usually obvious from the start but Ency and her pair of enhanced encies going home are a surprise. ‘Tonight was…a lot’ declares monotone, less-than-eloquent Clayton. Someone please connect this robot to a charging station.

Oooh! Sensitive subject matter! What might that be? We know nudity is out. A catfight maybe? ‘I feel like a lot of the drama has gotten in the way of the reason we’re here,’ Jill observes. Yes, and that’s exactly the way the producers want it, darling. Finding luuuurve is surplus to requirements, especially after so many false dawns at the end of The Journey™.

Jesse cheers them up with: ‘You never know when your last moment will come.’ Positively funereal. A group date is first and hopefully children and, er, Hilary Duff won’t be part of the activities. Everyone in LA is still wearing those damned masks except, notably, the cast members. Professor Plum is wearing a top so purple that we’re starting to suspect he’s colorblind.

On second thought, can we have Hilary Duff again? It’s yet another appearance of the world’s dullest Canadian (despite numerous competitors), Kaitlyn Bristowe, her tacky crazy-quilt manicure and her odd shirt/dress/jacket hybrid that may or may not provide enough modesty when seated. I thought the border was closed, dammit! Exactly why this variation of the old truth-or-dare game had to be staged on an actual stage, in the dark, is unclear. Which adult among us has no flaws or skeletons in the closet? A ridiculous self-evident premise. Not that we expected a scientific exercise but the eyes are darting about the room and all we’re getting is follow-the-leader. Where’s the ‘date’ part of the group date? This is little more than therapy and not the entertaining Tony Soprano kind. Medical confidences? Not a bit of it. Air your dirty laundry for our entertainment. Emote on cue.

Did someone mention the gym? Now Clayton is paying attention, bro. How much do you bench, he wonders? Wrong question. Evoking insecurities in a roomful of them is a torturous new low even for this program and this season.  Is there a reason these truths couldn’t be revealed individually as part of getting to know someone? Hunter has definitely had a rough go, it must be said.

All right, Clayton, don’t pinch your stomach if it upsets you. But pinch something else – your arm, your leg – wake up and stop wearing these damned hoodie/sport coat combinations. A sweater with a hood, no less! The gang march into…a disused bank vault. As you do. Insert joke about unlocking someone’s heart.

Serene is, well, serene. Susie still nodding head animatedly. ‘I feel a strong connection with you,’ she declares. While staring at the floor. No spoilers known or implied but if she ain’t a finalist I’ll eat my cowboy hat. Clayton’s going in for seconds and thirds at the pageant afterparty.

Back at the ranch, Clayton’s date card is written in a very feminine hand. Can’t they get the lad to write his own material?

After an agonizing encounter group discussing the anguish caused by physical insecurities, Eliza and Clayton are now examining themselves in a full-length mirror.  Psychologists’ clinical term for this is ‘pouring gasoline on a fire.’ Faith, hope and love have nothing on intractable narcissism.

‘Keep being who you are’ is Bachelor code for ‘you’ve got no chance.’ But Clayton is aware enough to know that after today’s conversation he would be crucified without wood or nails if he discouraged her now. So he plays along while keeping enough space for the Holy Ghost between them.

Maybe Clayton wore layers because Genevieve is fanning him with her fluttering false eyelashes. Brrrr. She’s still affected by the events of today. Snap out of it girl, or the tinted Escalade beckons. Cinderella Mara is likely going to discover that no glass slipper will be forthcoming. The mirror turns out to be magic for Eliza. To invoke another Disney reference, the magic mirror didn’t work out too well for the Queen.

Clayton and his apparently inexhaustible supply of hoodies are here to greet the petite Sarah who gives up a foot and a half in height.  It’s hard to see the iconic LA City Hall without hearing the ominous Dragnet theme, which seems apropos for The Most Dramatic Season Ever™.

Another Bachelor(ette) alumna, Becca is here to talk about comfort zones (ugh) and bonding, which seems cruelly ironic given her inability to hang onto a man. Painful candor about self image? That was yesterday. Today we’re exposing acres of flesh in a public park. Clayton is secretly rejoicing that Sarah is a fighting fit size 0 and has no apparent hangups about exposure.

At the risk of being a stickler for the rules, this isn’t much of a scavenger hunt is it? What happened to ‘find a pair of rubber boots’ or ‘borrow someone’s golf club?’ Pinatas and karaoke aren’t really part of a hunt are they?  Rapping instead of singing is cheating, Sarah! The clothes mercifully go back on, hoodie or no hoodie. Sarah is delivering entire sentences in vocal fry now. Clayton responds the only way he knows how – with slurpy kisses that sound like a toilet being plunged.

The evening date is at the Van Gogh exhibit, where they’re going Dutch! *RIMSHOT* Oh come on – it’s Dry January! Work with me here! Sarah is an inveterate hair-fiddler but she looks bored more than anything else. Clayton’s wardrobe is getting worse, if that’s possible. He’s wearing a sport coat made out of your mother’s old sofa upholstery.  Hopefully the spot where she dropped a cigarette that one time has been trimmed off in the tailoring process.

The already tear-filled days fill up some more with Sarah’s story of her adoption and childhood although Sarah’s teardrops magically evaporate between camera cuts thus eliminating the need for tissues. Clayton has the same stock response to every tale he hears. It helps him understand etc etc ad infinitum ad nauseum. On second thought, can we bring back one of the old Bachelors? One of the rakes? One of those priapic smirking cads who just wanted to get his leg over as many times as possible? I can’t take much more of Clayton’s Dr Phil routine and his ‘thank you for that.’

To use another Holland metaphor, despite the long hours spent in today’s confessional booth it seems our Sarah is erecting a brick emotional levee that the rather drippy Clayton stands no chance of breaching.  In other words, he’s being friendzoned in real time. Not buying the long embrace and the string quartet. Sorry.

Another date card is being presented in their absence and Shanae simply will not shut up. Rachel now has the thousand-yard stare. Desperation or boredom? The remaining ladies head to the beach – cue surf guitar glissando (disclaimer: this writer has played one or two of those and typically has an ear out for them). Personal trainer Melina (who???) has come to the beach but is wearing enough gold to lose and keep an old man with a metal detector busy for a month. Hmmm…Kira’s figure seems to have changed since arrival night unless her red lingerie ensemble included a padded bra.

Speaking of surreptitious changes in bustlines, Nicole Eggert arrives. Eggert famously had implants during her Baywatch heyday and, later, famously announced their removal. If the previous group date was about body negativity, today is all about body positivity. Or having to fake it in a red high-cut one-piece. Presumably helpful but strict grooming advice was issued this morning.  And Melina is still wearing a jewelry store.

Nicole is keeping the windbreaker on, thank you very much, especially as the sun refuses to shine. A pointless task involving sun cream follows, not least because Clayton’s arms are already burnt, apparently from a previous outing. Dark horse Gabby steals a win but we’re forced to endure as many shots of Shanae moaning and gritting her teeth as we are Gabby enjoying her time.

The evening date features Teddi, who’s been nearly silent all day and has a face like thunder tonight. Clayton has the Members Only version of a leather jacket on. Just hopeless. Go on, give Rachel a kiss if it will stop her endless monologue. Gabby’s bringing a new kind of social lubricant.

Did Shanae just pronounce it ‘ekspecially?’ ‘This is, like, happening!’ Clayton obviously isn’t so sure. The obligatory Two Minutes Of Hate for Elizabeth follows along with some hacktastic community theatre emoting. If the gormless Clayton falls for this routine he deserves his fate.

Is there a hidden message in Elizabeth’s alphabet-soup dress? ‘I HATE SHANAE’ maybe? She’s playing defense – again - but her crying jag doesn’t have the desired effect. ‘He told me that I got everyone to gang up on Shanae.’ Well, the gang part might be accurate but Shanae doesn’t need any help creating enemies. It’s a bit of recruiter-on-recruiter violence as Sierra fires the first volley.

The good news: the schedule has resumed and the next episode is only a week away.  The bad news: the schedule has resumed and the next episode is only a week away. And will feature the time-wasting distraction known as Shanae. But the producers’ only alternative is more footage of cold-fish Clayton sucking face in lieu of conversation so they’re a bit desperate already.
 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Rainsong

[Sir RaiderDuck OMS]

Did we or did we not see Cassidy suppressing a laugh when she was being driven off in the SUV of Shame?

Memo to the Showrunners: It really kills the "Will She or Won't She Get a Rose?" suspense when you show us a preview of her participating in THE NEXT GROUP DATE.

I'm assuming this is leading up to a Shanae/Elizabeth 2:1 date or something.

I fell asleep for (according to my Oura Ring) 51 minutes and didn't feel like I missed a damn thing. I fell asleep during a boring group date and woke up during a boring group date. Nicole Eggert looked great, though.

[Alexander Pope]

15 hours ago, EllenB said:

This "date" is where fun goes to die. Can't ONE of them say, "Nah, I'm good."

I do think there was one of them who didn't stand up when asked the (non) question about what they didn't like about themselves.  I think she was a brunette (?).

[Recyclorette]

15 hours ago, Lamb18 said:

There's one woman who looks like Ashley's little sister. 

Disappointment, the mysterious figure on the stage is only Kaitlyn.

I think it's Genevieve who I think looks like Ashley.

I've been trying to figure out who Genevieve reminds me of and I finally realized it was Nick Viall's finalist, Vanessa.  Guess Genevieve has a few twins!

[alexa]

Elizabeth reminds me of Sharna on DWTS.  

[call me ishmael]

5 hours ago, jackjill89 said:

I wish that the women had all spilled on Clayton when he came back to the group on that date. They could have just all said that Shanae is freaking nuts, there's no bullying, we just don't like her and finished this whole thing. This is so tiresome.

Exactly.  Clay'N has even demonstrated that he won't punish the person who comes to talk with him about a "villain."  They should have stopped complaining about her amongst themselves and just told him.  Unless they did and the producers overruled them.

[Alexander Pope]

2 hours ago, call me ishmael said:

Exactly.  Clay'N has even demonstrated that he won't punish the person who comes to talk with him about a "villain."  They should have stopped complaining about her amongst themselves and just told him.  Unless they did and the producers overruled them.

You would think too that the precedent had been set when the men insisted Michelle dump Jamie on her season.  Maybe this is a gendered response on the women's part?