S41.E12: Truth Kamikaze

[Birnam Wood]

Heather should win simply for acquiring the revelatory knowledge that it miiiight possibly be more difficult to be a black man in America than a privileged white woman.

[tvfanatic13]

Zzzzzzz…. Oh sorry. I was napping. That episode was so boring. After the continuation of “A Very Special Survivor”, not one thing happened. I don’t even know who I want to win this awful season. I suppose Ricard, but I am not even sure. Maybe Erica just because. 

[mythoughtis]

I’m happy with Zander ( outlast) or Erika ( outwit) winning.   Richard has out-played, but I just don’t like him.  Heather hadn’t done anything except Outlast, while Zander has made strategic moves.  DeShawn hadn’t played well enough as he’s too emotional 

[rr2911]

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

I think there have always been diverse contestants, but for years and years it was like there was a formula.  One black male, one black female, one "other" (usually female).  I agree with you that nobody has really talked about race before, if they did I don't think we saw as much discussion as we have this season, but maybe because it never affected gameplay.  As Deshawn said, there never were really enough minority players to make a difference where they could band together on the basis of shared culture.  Except for Cook Islands and Earl's season that followed which had the exact same racial makeup but they didn't want to call it "Race Wars 2" or whatever the first season was known as. 

I guess what kind of bothered me was Survivor is still a game to win a million dollars and that should be at the forefront, not ow many blacks, whites, hispanics, etc., there are in the game.  For Deshawn to be conflicted about voting out another black versus improving his odds on going further in game seemed scripted just to make sure every viewer knows that Survivor is woke.  Heck, I'm Mexican-American, and I don't think my ethnic group has been represented that much if at all.  If I was playing this game, I won't care how many Mexican-Americans there were.  If they are a threat to my game then I would write their name down. 

But I get what you're saying.

---------------------------------------------------------

I know that G.O.A.T.  means Greatest Of All Time

What does goat mean here on Survivor?

Edited December 9, 2021 by rr2911

[blackwing]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

You guys, I'm calling it now: Deshawn is going to win this season. This entire episode seemed to revolve around him. That either means he's being voted out, which didn't happen, or he's the winner. The first 15 minutes were devoted to his poignant tribal council speech last week. Now, maybe the show is just trying really hard to prove how profound it is. (Which it isn't. It's no more profound than Wheel of Fortune, especially now that it's been reduced to basically a game of chance.) But you can forget about resumes. If Deshawn is in the final three, he will turn on the waterworks again, and everyone will vote for him. That's my prediction.

I agree if he makes it into the final, he wins, because he will cry some more about how hard it has been to be black in America.  But I disagree that the time devoted to him means he is the winner.  I think the Survivor adage that if we see someone get a big spotlight during the episode, it means they are going home, only applies if it is someone who we had never really seen before.  But in his case, he has been a big part of the season.  The editors were more than content to make the first half of the season "the Shan Show" even though she finished in 8th place, so I don't think the amount of time devoted to A Very Special Episode Part Deux: Deshawnaloo necessarily means he wins the season.

I think it's purely because Jeffy LOVES this shit, if it were up to him he probably would have wanted Deshawn to keep going on and on to fill up another episode.  Because Jeffy in his mind is such a powerful influencer on the way Americans think, so many people watch Survivor and this is his continued contribution to make American society a better place to be.

1 hour ago, ProfCrash said:

Xander pulled off that Liana fake out with the help of Tiffany and Evvie and did his damndest to sabotage it by telling Danny about Liana's advantage. Liana should never have used the advantage because she knew that Xander know about it. Instead, the three other yellow worked as a group to convince Liana that Xander would have the idol on him so that Liana would burn her advantage. Not playing the idol on Evvie was a ballsy move that paid off, I'll give him that, but that play only comes together because Evvie and Tiffany worked with Xander. Tiffany went so far as to not play the idol because Xander didn't want it played.

He followed that up by refusing to even talk to Evvie and Tiffany, the only two people who would have worked with him at that time. Even after Tiffany did not play his idol and returned that to him. I have no clue how much more Tiffany needed to do to demonstrate that she was loyal to Xander and wanted to work with him. Even if he had no intention of saving either of them, not talking to them at all was an awful social move that hurt Xander. He was in a position to work with them and try and find a way to flip the game and instead he alienated the two of them and kept himself on the bottom. I am not saying it would have been easy but it was something to try.

After that he seems to have become such a non-entity in the game that no one has even discussed flushing his idol. He has been used as a vote but not really participated in the decision making process.

I don't know if I agree with this.  I think it seems evident that he has a key role in the decision process.  The decision to vote out Liana over Ricard was his and his alone.  He knew that if he kept Liana, then the next week (which was this week), it would be three black alliance vs. him, Heather and Erika, and there was a good chance his side would be on the losing side.  So he ensured that they would keep Ricard (he played his extra vote to make it happen even if Erika flipped) because Ricard had been relegated to being a vote instead of running the show.

I think he is a lot more strategic and thinks ahead in a way that belies his stoned surfer boy look and persona.  Erika is coming into her own, so it may not be "his" alliance anymore but I hardly think he is a non-entity.  The others seem to think he is in the drivers seat.  When Danny and Deshawn were talking at the beginning of this episode about trying to get out Ricard, Danny says "I'll go talk to Xander".  Not Erika.

14 minutes ago, Birnam Wood said:

Heather should win simply for acquiring the revelatory knowledge that it miiiight possibly be more difficult to be a black man in America than a privileged white woman.

Hahaha.  Yep.  Especially since she's in her early 50s and she only JUST became aware of this fact, she is so blessed to have been chosen for Survivor so she could acquire this knowledge!

[blackwing]

39 minutes ago, rr2911 said:

I know that G.O.A.T.  means Greatest Of All Time

What does goat mean here on Survivor?

Goat in this context is basically a useless person who has done absolutely nothing in the game, and gets taken to the end because everyone knows they have been useless, and thus a better choice to take to the end.  For example, Colby should have taken Keith to the end because Keith was a useless goat, as opposed to Tina, who was at least well-liked and viewed by many as Mom of the tribe.

As far as general usage outside of Survivor, "goat" to me has always meant someone who is dumb and useless and basically just taking up space.  It seems to derive from "scapegoat" and I think it is particularly used in sports when a player makes a bad play that causes his team to lose the game.  I'm not sure when "GOAT" started being regularly used to denote Greatest of All Time. 

I find it particularly interesting that these two terms are almost diametrically opposite.  One describes the worst player on the team, the other describes the best.  So if you say something like "did you see the game last night?  Brady is the goat!" it could be possibly ambiguous as to exactly what you are saying.

Edited December 9, 2021 by blackwing

[survivinmt]

I too, cannot understand how their clothes are staying so clean - its a mystery.

Erika is very sneaky. She gets her way a lot - last night she said she had to convince everyone to vote out Danny rather DeShawn and it happened. Hmmmm . . . 

This is from the interwebs so I know its solid truth: United States Ethnic groups. Factbook > Countries > United States > Demographics. Ethnic groups: white 72.4%, black 12.6%, Asian 4.8%, Amerindian and Alaska native 0.9%, native Hawaiian and other Pacific islander 0.2%, other 6.2%, two or more races 2.9% (2010 estimate)

I've always thought Survivor does a pretty good job with representative diversity in casting. 

Amazing Race!!!! YAY!!!

[Lantern7]

There was nothing from Erik last week, but he breaks this out in so little time.

[HurricaneVal]

I've always thought of it as "sacrificial goat" meaning someone you drag to the end and stake out as bait to the jury to ensure that you skew the votes toward your game rather than the goat's lackluster, coattail clinging, game.  So that person is sacrificed to get more votes.  (Not literally....)

 

At this point, I'd be A-OK with anybody that's left winning--except for Heather.  Though if Heather won, I guess I'd be OK with that as well, because that would really put the confusing cherry right on top of this bizarre season.

 

I did note last night that there were some very unflattering shots of Xander's facial expressions which might help us understand why Liana hated his face so much.  Either Xander has resting smug face, or he truly is walking around all smug and superior.

Edited December 9, 2021 by HurricaneVal
To add gory sacrificial details

[fishcakes]

We should have known Danny was going last night. Earlier in the season, the editors gave him that majestic slo-mo leap off the challenge platform. Last night, he got the derp fall.

Xander's idol [whistles nonchalantly]: Don't mind me, I'm not even here!

[bankerchick]

24 minutes ago, blackwing said:

I think it's purely because Jeffy LOVES this shit, if it were up to him he probably would have wanted Deshawn to keep going on and on to fill up another episode.  Because Jeffy in his mind is such a powerful influencer on the way Americans think, so many people watch Survivor and this is his continued contribution to make American society a better place to be.

All I have to say is that for almost 18 months, I found something else to do on Wednesday night and if the show on offer is Woke Survivor, I'll gladly walk away.

[blackwing]

19 minutes ago, survivinmt said:

I too, cannot understand how their clothes are staying so clean - its a mystery.

This is from the interwebs so I know its solid truth: United States Ethnic groups. Factbook > Countries > United States > Demographics. Ethnic groups: white 72.4%, black 12.6%, Asian 4.8%, Amerindian and Alaska native 0.9%, native Hawaiian and other Pacific islander 0.2%, other 6.2%, two or more races 2.9% (2010 estimate)

I've always thought Survivor does a pretty good job with representative diversity in casting. 

After last week's discussion about clothes I paid more attention last night.  It seems that everyone was given some sort of warm outerwear.  I noticed Deshawn, Heather and Xander all at least seem to have gotten some kind of sweater, fleece jacket or something.  I guess maybe it gets chilly even in Fiji at night or early morning?

Those demographics cited above do not take into account that the U.S. census does not consider "Hispanic" to be a race or ethnic group.  I think most Hispanics would be considered White per the census - Mexican, Cuban, Central American, South American, etc.  Then there could also be Black Hispanic such as Dominican.  I'm not sure what portion of the 72.4% "White" would be considered Hispanic though.

[Hera]

54 minutes ago, survivinmt said:

This is from the interwebs so I know its solid truth: United States Ethnic groups. Factbook > Countries > United States > Demographics. Ethnic groups: white 72.4%, black 12.6%, Asian 4.8%, Amerindian and Alaska native 0.9%, native Hawaiian and other Pacific islander 0.2%, other 6.2%, two or more races 2.9% (2010 estimate)

30 minutes ago, blackwing said:

Those demographics cited above do not take into account that the U.S. census does not consider "Hispanic" to be a race or ethnic group.

Those demographics also do not take into account the age distribution of the country and within each ethnic group. Each successive generation in the US is proportionally less white than the one that preceded it, and Survivor casts have never matched the age distribution of the US. There was a discussion about this in the media thread over a year ago, when it was first announced that CBS reality shows wouldn't allow their casts to be more than 50% white. I stand by my belief that this announcement was a cynical attempt to look progressive about something that was almost inevitable due to the age groups that these shows tend to cast from in the first place.

[rr2911]

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

 

As far as general usage outside of Survivor, "goat" to me has always meant someone who is dumb and useless and basically just taking up space.  It seems to derive from "scapegoat" and I think it is particularly used in sports when a player makes a bad play that causes his team to lose the game.  I'm not sure when "GOAT" started being regularly used to denote Greatest of All Time. 

 

GOAT, which means GREATEST OF ALL TIME in the sports world started awhile back in the sportstalk shows and radio.  So when they say Tom Brady is the GOAT, they are saying he's "the greatest of all time"

[SweaterGirl]

I'm firmly in the Xander camp. Ricard would be my 2nd choice if I were on the jury.

Xander, let's not forget, had to survive all those TCs without even a VOTE until all the phrases were spoken in the same challenge. He volunteered to sit out a challenge and stepped up to support Shan's bargaining game with Jeff for rice to feed the whole tribe. 2 things that, regardless of how sincere they were, proved that Xander is ALWAYS calculating, weighing, thinking about leverage. In a word, outwitting.

His ruination of Liana's advantage was both skillful and bold, as was his confidence in not playing his idol for Evvie. He knew that Evvie was safe.

His use of his extra vote was not by accident, nor was it wasted. He took that step as a very aggressive, proactive move, to get Liana out without waiting for a tie and a revote. This gave him cover for his own vote as well, and to me is a decisiveness that shows Xander's determination to "outplay." Voting for Liana before Ricard was the superior move, since Liana was part of the strongest alliance with the most potential jury support. 

Xander knew about the Monty Hall problem immediately. His comments in tribal are unwaveringly solid, perfectly calibrated to please all listeners without betraying any personal bias, and delivered in a believably sincere plausibility.

I personally feel that Xander has outwitted, outplayed, and outlasted all the others, to this point, and done so from the bottom, without strong alliances, without a VOTE in half the show, and without playing his idol.

Ricard is smart and strategic, and I will have no complaints should he win. I just feel that Xander's game has been stealthier, under the radar, but no less sharp and aggressive than Ricard's, and all from a place of far less security.

Edited December 9, 2021 by SweaterGirl
Autocorrect errors

[Lamima]

16 hours ago, North of Eden said:

The beginning spent so much time on the aftermath of the previous tribal council I was getting antsy and was thinking, let's get on with this.

As for the ending...I have no idea what that was. I don't know if it was something Deshawn and Erica orchestrated...I simply have no idea.

Now the in between the beginning and the end well...any seasoned viewer knows that if they spend the entire episode building up how Ricard is going to be the vote at  tribal...you can bet a million dollars that anyone BUT Ricard is going to be going home sure enough.

Part of me can't help but wonder if the producers made a move to save Ricard like the time they rescued Ben by a convienent new challenge. I think they purposly trotted out a balance challenge because who better to win it that a Flight Attendant who deals with turbulence every day of his life and is probably and expert at balancing as he walks from the First Class back to where the rest of us unwashed peasants sit.

Wow...Lianna looks sour still...she's never going to get over this and has Russel Hantz level bitterness.

Edited to add:  Heather is the poster girl with one of the greatest flaws of this came....year after year a complete non-entity...a virutal nobody is dragged to the end simply to serve as a goat. Let's see three truly worthy players at the end for once!

I want to see 2 worthy players at the final tribal. So since they always drag a worthless goat, I am fine with that because it is as if it were still a F2. Which is what it should be, IMO.

[lilysmom]

5 hours ago, Lamb18 said:

The commercial went by fast, but yes, TAR is back on Jan 5.

Happy Dance!!

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, rr2911 said:

I guess what kind of bothered me was Survivor is still a game to win a million dollars and that should be at the forefront, not ow many blacks, whites, hispanics, etc., there are in the game.  For Deshawn to be conflicted about voting out another black versus improving his odds on going further in game seemed scripted just to make sure every viewer knows that Survivor is woke.  Heck, I'm Mexican-American, and I don't think my ethnic group has been represented that much if at all.  If I was playing this game, I won't care how many Mexican-Americans there were.  If they are a threat to my game then I would write their name down. 

But I get what you're saying.

But race has almost certainly implicitly impacted how contestants have thought of other contestants in seasons past, and the fact that there have rarely been enough POC to form an alliance like this season's has also influenced the game.

There's no reason to think that Deshawn's conflicted feelings about having to vote off people he bonded with as fellow African-Americans was dictated by TPTB. Or at least, if it was, Deshawn deserves credit for being able to cry on cue. The likelihood is that Deshawn's decision to stab Shan in the back is going to have not just ramifications for him in the game but outside. He's going to (presumably) have to deal with friends and acquaintances, some of whom are black, who are going to see what he did as foolish, or a betrayal of the black community, or any number of things. Maybe he wins a million dollars in the game and he gets less grief. Maybe he loses, and he gets more. And maybe his internalized struggle is more of what matters to him. Even if one's not African-American, it's I think an issue that one can possibly understand.

I'm assuming Sandra, a two-time winner, and Ozzy, a beloved and frequent competitor, are of Mexican descent. There are probably other Mexican or Latino players that I'm not thinking of.

As much as the AAA might have talked about unity, it was clear that Deshawn was perfectly willing to boot Shan. Danny and Deshawn wrote each other's name down tonight because they had few other choices, admittedly but still. And if there were an alternate world where the four had managed to stay together longer, it's likely that some one would have defected before the final four. Even if they didn't they clearly couldn't force a FTC with all four of them. One of them would have had to go. 

If you were playing the game and there was another Mexican-American there, it might be smart to play the "we've got to stick together as Mexican-Americans" card at some point. But let's not forget, it's not like the AAs on this season refused to vote for Eric or J.D. because of their race.

 

[Matty]

The finale next week should be suspenseful. I would like Xander to win but everyone else, except Heather, can definitely make the case to the the jury why they should win the final prize. Ricard has played a great game. He's a cool customer. Smart and good at challenges. DeShawn has support on the jury if he makes it to the final three. He plays a good social game and I think Danny, Shan and Lianne would definitely vote for him. Ericka has been on the bottom the whole game and yet she's still there scrapping and fighting the whole way. I give her props for managing to get this far. Please let Heather be voted out at five and let the "fab four" duke it out for the final three spots. I would like Xander, Ricard and Erika to be final three, but that's just my hope, not that I think it will definitely turn out that way. We'll see. I'm looking forward to the finale.  

[TVbitch]

That gleeful grin between Danny and Ricard, with his silver locks down, was a lot of gorgeousness. 

I hope Ricard wins, but he better find the immunity idol pronto.

I just hope someone undeserving doesn't win. Heather, no. DeShawn, if he ends up in final three, he pretty much bumbled his way there. Erika and Xander have more on their resume, but not as much as Ricard.  

PS. Phil! 

[ChicksDigScars]

With Danny gone, I couldn't care less who wins, let alone watch three hours of these boring ass motherfuckers next week. Yawn.

Time to go see how well Danny cleans up at Ponderosa!

 

[HurricaneVal]

I like Ricard better now that he's no longer part of Ricard&Shan.  I liked him fine when he was pushing back at Shan from within that mini-alliance too.  He did have a bad moment with Papaya-Gate, where he really boofed up reading the room.  He also struck me as kind of creepy, but once he explained how he depends so much on lip reading and body language to understand what's going on around him because of his hearing loss, it made more sense.  The way he closely observes interactions going on around him, even if he's not involved in the conversation, with that intent gaze that darts around to scan everybody to see if they're talking struck me as creepy and scheming.  Now that I know that is what he needs to do in order to know whats happening--it isn't like he can pretend to nap while eavesdropping like everyone else can--then I cut him a lot of slack and I definitely appreciate his game more. 

My preference is Erika for the win.  After that, I'm good with Xander or Ricard as my #2.  DeShawn as my #3, only because as someone said upthread, his strategy was more bumbling than precise.

[blackwing]

1 hour ago, rr2911 said:

GOAT, which means GREATEST OF ALL TIME in the sports world started awhile back in the sportstalk shows and radio.  So when they say Tom Brady is the GOAT, they are saying he's "the greatest of all time"

Apparently "goat" denoting someone who loses the game for the team has its origins in the 1945 Chicago Cubs' Curse of the Billy Goat, when some fan wasn't allowed into the stadium with his pet goat and cursed the team.  Ever since then, "goat" denoted someone who made a crucial error that lost his team the game.  Like Bill Buckner and the ground ball through his legs.  Like Chris Webber calling a timeout for Michigan when they had no timeouts left.

And then somewhere along the line, GOAT with capital letters became used for Greatest of All Time.

Here is an article that talks more about the evolution:https://www.deseret.com/entertainment/2020/11/15/21557160/goat-greatest-of-all-time-lebron-james-michael-jordan

But to bring this back to the original question, in the context of Survivor, a Survivor goat is someone who is perceived as having no chance to win the game.  They get dragged along to the end, despite having done absolutely nothing, because everyone wants to sit next to them because they will get zero votes.  Better to be sitting next to a goat than another worthy player.  Angelina Keeley, Julie Rosenberg, Noura Salmon.  And looking more and more likely to join that club is Heather "there are BLACK PEOPLE living in this country and they think it's hard to be black?!?!?!" Whatshername.

[ProfCrash]

Goat is easily understood in context.

G.O.A.T. is normally an acronym and a lot of times the entire phrase is written out, but yes, G.O.A.T. is greatest of all time. If you know professional sports you know that Tom Brady and GOAT is not a bad thing. Or Lebron or Jordon.

Survivor context goat is someone being brought to the end as a sacrifice. Unless you are talking about Sandra or Tony who have won twice. I believe that they refer to themselves as the King and Queen of Survivor and not the GOAT.

[jsm1125]

7 hours ago, himela said:

If Xander, Erika and Heather are final 3 (two goats who were not even shown until after merge) and Xander wins it will be the right choice but it will still mean that there's got to be a way to solve the goat problem. It's becoming ridiculous. One strong player and two goats. I cannot.

 

 

I'm not so sure Xander wins in that scenario. Other than hold on to an idol for the merge, what agency has he actually had? The bluffing with the idol move at the Sydney vote was Evvie's idea. Tiffany is certainly not voting for him to win based on her exit interviews. Erika at least played a key role in the Naseer, Shan and Danny votes.

[ZeeEnnui]

6 hours ago, Birnam Wood said:

Heather should win simply for acquiring the revelatory knowledge that it miiiight possibly be more difficult to be a black man in America than a privileged white woman.

In fairness, the last time that Heather realized that things were different for black people in America was during a very special episode of Different Strokes. Give her another 40 years, and she'll learn about white privilege. 

Welcome back to tribal, Shan's Stank Face. Someone should tell her that she lost, and may want to swallow that bitter pill before she chokes on it. 

DeShawn and Danny couldn't make it through 10 minutes of a game of Risk. These guys don't have a strategic bone in their body unless anarchy and panic are now considered strategy (looking at you, DeShawn). 

Anyone who has the confidence to wear a velvet headband -- last seen in my Sears childhood holiday photo from the early 90s -- isn't going to be worried about DeShawn's truth bellyflops. 

I'm sorry to see Danny go. In the end, while I like him more than DeShawn, it's smarter to get rid of Danny. He's jury catnip. 

At the start of this season, I loathed Ricard, but over time I've coming to appreciate him (and his mad balancing bar skills). He's smart, observant, and just plays the game. If he won, I don't think I would be mad about it.

I've been Team Xander since the beginning of the season. He may look like a guy that has blacklight posters in his dorm, and listens to Phish, but under those unruly locks hides a keen mind. Xander has been on his own nearly this entire game, and the fact he's survived and no one has really gunned for him -- aside from Evvie and her Amazing Technicolor Underpants or Waaaahhhh I Hate Xander Because I'm a Dumb Toddler, Liana -- at tribal council. 

 

[lilysmom]

5 hours ago, rr2911 said:

GOAT, which means GREATEST OF ALL TIME in the sports world started awhile back in the sportstalk shows and radio.  So when they say Tom Brady is the GOAT, they are saying he's "the greatest of all time"

So would Heather be the GOAT (sporty meaning) goat (survivor meaning)??

[ProfCrash]

1 minute ago, lilysmom said:

So would Heather be the GOAT (sporty meaning) goat (survivor meaning)??

Survivor only uses the goat. Heather is a goat extraordinaire. She has been awful at challenges, barely seen, and no real game played.  

[violet and green]

Our introduction to Heather was her falling off a beam (I can't really remember if it was a beam...?! some bumble of hopeless nature, with a round of patronising by Jeff when she finally finished) repeatedly over and over and over, and holding her whole tribe up in an early challenge. I'm sure she's said stuff and done stuff and had strategy talks, but from her edit, who would know. So it is pretty funny to have her and Erica wondering whose gameplay would impress most in a final tribal.

[ProfCrash]

4 minutes ago, violet and green said:

Our introduction to Heather was her falling off a beam (I can't really remember if it was a beam...?! some bumble of hopeless nature, with a round of patronising by Jeff when she finally finished) repeatedly over and over and over, and holding her whole tribe up in an early challenge. I'm sure she's said stuff and done stuff and had strategy talks, but from her edit, who would know. So it is pretty funny to have her and Erica wondering whose gameplay would impress most in a final tribal.

Tiffany was the one falling off the balance beam. Heather sat out every challenge until she had to participate in a reward challenge, then she wasn’t able to do whatever it was that she was suppose to do and single handedly lost the challenge. Danny was totally cool and encouranging. 

[Guest]

59 minutes ago, ProfCrash said:

1 hour ago, lilysmom said:

So would Heather be the GOAT (sporty meaning) goat (survivor meaning)??

Survivor only uses the goat. Heather is a goat extraordinaire. She has been awful at challenges, barely seen, and no real game played.  

I believe that's what Lilysmom meant: Heather is a goat extraordinaire, aka the greatest goat of all time, aka the GOAT goat. 

[TzuShih]

I will have to do a rewatch of Survivor 41 to understand that Richard was so well liked by his tribemates.  I spent the first half of the show perceiving him as THE VILLIAN.  But, then, later, I heard comments as to how much he was respected by his fellow players.  Oh well.  This is the first time I'll watch the finale without my heart in my throat.  Yes, I have faves, but not to a point where I will brew over the 'result' for long.

[violet and green]

1 hour ago, ProfCrash said:

Tiffany was the one falling off the balance beam. Heather sat out every challenge until she had to participate in a reward challenge, then she wasn’t able to do whatever it was that she was suppose to do and single handedly lost the challenge. Danny was totally cool and encouranging. 

So it was! Then I know even less about Heather than I've gleaned in the last few eps when she has suddenly featured.

[Meowwww]

Team Xander here.  A little worried Ricard will win though. 

[Nashville]

16 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I think [Danny] said "bamboo," not burlap. But it's interesting that he didn't find the idol, because the cameraman did. I tend to be suspicious of how these people seem to find idols, because I think sometimes the cameramen give it away, deliberately or not.

Danny’s words - said in a voiceover while the camera shows him searching:

Yesterday after leaving the Reward Challenge I decide to go search for an idol, and I find absolutely nothing - uh, some spider webs, some burlap, and some wood, but I don’t find the idol - but my search, uh, actually paid off, because people assume that I have found something.

In fact, if you look at Danny’s hands in the scene where he’s doing the voiceover you can see he’s clutching a wad of burlap as he searches - and when you consider (a) this is Survivor’s 9th season on the same stretch of beach and (b) how litter-prone Americans tend to be in general, the presence of scrap burlap scattered throughout the jungle surrounding the camp(s) becomes less and less remarkable.

 

16 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

I disagree that Xander is a goat.

In any other season and other any other circumstances I would agree - but assuming a Survivor-normal F3 vying for jury votes at FTC, in this season and under these circumstances I see no way Xander wins.  Look at our current tableau:

Active players:

1. Deshawn 
2. Erika 
3. Heather 
4. Ricard
5. Xander 

Jury:

1. Danny
2. Evvie 
3. Liana 
4. Naseer
5. Shan
6. Tiffany 

Primarily, the “circumstances” of which I speak are (a) the composition of the Jury, and (b) the various permutations of people Xander would be sitting beside at FTC.  Assuming the “usual” F3 at FTC, this means two of the current Actives will be joining the Jury - leaving Xander with two other remaining Actives comprising the F3, which will be facing an 8-person Jury.  

I could go through all the permutations, but what it boils down to is this: there’s no F3 scenario where Xander doesn’t end up sitting next to at least one of Ricard, Deshawn, and/or Erika - and given the resultant Jury composition, Xander loses to all three of these.

ETA: Strangely enough, I think the closest shot Xander might have to winning would be a Heather/Ricard/Xander F3.

Edited December 10, 2021 by Nashville

[SnideAsides]

22 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

They couldn’t do trips and excursions because of COVID. Fiji had some of the stricter restrictions at the time. They were lucky to even film the season. So anything that involved extra people and different modes of travel to get there was out. The village visit and the like would have been a total no go. And the family visit was 100% not happening because of travel restrictions and quarantine requirements.  

The rewards have been terrible for years, even before Covid (hell, even before they were defaulting to Fiji every season). They've been doing things like "we can't be bothered finding somewhere cool to go, how about we just deliver pizza/ice cream/etc to camp for you?" since at least Caramoan, and you can pretty much set your clock to the first three rewards of any given season nowadays being a fire kit, fishing gear, and the tarp/blanket/chair package in that order. And the specific example cited in the episode was a letter from home, which they could have done without any effect on the show's Covid protocols (except maybe printing off emails instead of having actual mail repackaged in those cheesy fake envelopes they use). Like I haaaate that the loved one episode has devolved into a twenty-minute backdoor pilot for a reboot of Probst's failed talk show, forcing the show to do a half-assed non-challenge that's even more of a half-assed non-challenge than all the other half-assed non-challenges they trot out every other week now, but a "letter from home" reward would have hit the same spot without any of the negatives. Hell, if it wasn't visual enough for them they could have had a fucking Zoom sponsorship. Grilled chicken and broccoli simply doesn't cut it.

Also there were plenty of places that would have willingly given them somewhere suitable to film a season safely far sooner than Fiji did. They totally could have avoided skipping a year if they were willing to even consider the notion of, say, going back to Thailand (which was actively courting tourism and would have absolutely bankrolled production as a soft diplomacy measure like Fiji does) for two seasons, or using the "dawn of a new era" to return to Malaysian Borneo, or to finally give us that Jordan season that had to get cancelled two decades ago because of 9/11. The fact that they refused to even consider doing anything like that, instead wearing on the Fijian government until they let them back in (and, very possibly, bringing the coronavirus with them - there's a spike in cases that lines up PERFECTLY with when 42's cast would have been in quarantine) isn't a sign of the strength of Fiji's excellent Covid management, it's a sign of Jeff Probst's incompetence and laziness.

[Wonderlad71]

Ricard for the win! Wouldn't be mad if Erica or Xander won though. Deshawn lost me when he tried to throw that challenge early in the show.

[CountryGirl]

4 hours ago, Nashville said:

Danny’s words - said in a voiceover while the camera shows him searching:

Yesterday after leaving the Reward Challenge I decide to go search for an idol, and I find absolutely nothing - uh, some spider webs, some burlap, and some wood, but I don’t find the idol - but my search, uh, actually paid off, because people assume that I have found something.

In fact, if you look at Danny’s hands in the scene where he’s doing the voiceover you can see he’s clutching a wad of burlap as he searches - and when you consider (a) this is Survivor’s 9th season on the same stretch of beach and (b) how litter-prone Americans tend to be in general, the presence of scrap burlap scattered throughout the jungle surrounding the camp(s) becomes less and less remarkable.

 

In any other season and other any other circumstances I would agree - but assuming a Survivor-normal F3 vying for jury votes at FTC, in this season and under these circumstances I see no way Xander wins.  Look at our current tableau:

Active players:

1. Deshawn 
2. Erika 
3. Heather 
4. Ricard
5. Xander 

Jury:

1. Danny
2. Evvie 
3. Liana 
4. Naseer
5. Shan
6. Tiffany 

Primarily, the “circumstances” of which I speak are (a) the composition of the Jury, and (b) the various permutations of people Xander would be sitting beside at FTC.  Assuming the “usual” F3 at FTC, this means two of the current Actives will be joining the Jury - leaving Xander with two other remaining Actives comprising the F3, which will be facing an 8-person Jury.  

I could go through all the permutations, but what it boils down to is this: there’s no F3 scenario where Xander doesn’t end up sitting next to at least one of Ricard, Deshawn, and/or Erika - and given the resultant Jury composition, Xander loses to all three of these.

ETA: Strangely enough, I think the closest shot Xander might have to winning would be a Heather/Ricard/Xander F3.

That Xander might not win with this jury composition still doesn't make him a goat. He would hardly be the first strong player to lose the votes because of a bitter jury (or lack of jury management). 

[ProfCrash]

2 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

That Xander might not win with this jury composition still doesn't make him a goat. He would hardly be the first strong player to lose the votes because of a bitter jury (or lack of jury management). 

We see him as strong, heck the people playing probably see him as capable of winning immunity. He is a goat because no one cares if he wins immunity or if he has an idol. They are not worried about him. And it does not appear to be a Russell Hantz is an idiot who thinks that he can beat anyone and wasn't worried about Sandra not worried, it is a legit not worried. Parvarti knew that Sandra stood a great chance of winning if she made it to the finals but Russell saw Sandra as a goat. Everyone at home knew differently.

In this case, no one playing the game has indicated that they see Xander as any type of threat. When was the last time that there was someone with an idol in the game that everyone knew about that no one tried to flush? The emphasized making sure that Naseer and Shan were blindsided so the idol didn't get played. They split the vote for Danny and DeShawn in case Danny had an idol. But we have not hear word one about Xander's idol since the first merge tribal.

When the tribe talks about who to vote out because they are threat, no one discusses Xander. Ricard, Danny, and Erika have all been mentioned by the Tribe but not Xander. Even when Xander is not there, he is not discussed. Plan B for voting was never Xander. Danny and DeShawn didn't even seem to pitch that to Erika or Ricard. Not even a "He has and idol and can win immunity" pitch. If they did, TPTB didn't show it.

We know Liana didn't like him and was fixated on him for some reason. Maybe the show played that up because he was able to screw her advantage up but there clearly was something that missed at the yellow beach with Xander. Voce was seen as a bigger threat on yellow then Xander.

who has Xander bonded with out there? Who do we see talking about Xander as a number 1 or 2? Honestly strategizing with? No one. The only person he kind of had was Evvie and even then he was her back up.

Does Xander have more of a resume then Heather? Sure. He won immunity and found an idol. What else has he done? Stepped out for rice? Shan set that up and three other people stepped out as well. And people called out that move as sucking up when it happened in the show. Sat out for Erika to participate in a challenge? More sucking up that people saw through.

DeShawn and Danny flat out told Xander that the Liana vote was stupid. They might not have been wrong. Xander could probably have been their fourth and they would have been fine with that. Heck, Xander could win the final four immunity and make it to the final and they would have been fine with that.

Ignoring Danny's exit interview where he flat out says that no one was worried about Xander, the show has shown us that Xander is a new type of goat.

[lilysmom]

12 hours ago, tracyscott76 said:

I believe that's what Lilysmom meant: Heather is a goat extraordinaire, aka the greatest goat of all time, aka the GOAT goat. 

Thank you, Tracy!! That is exactly what I meant. It was supposed to be like a joke. LOL

[ProfCrash]

2 minutes ago, lilysmom said:

Thank you, Tracy!! That is exactly what I meant. It was supposed to be like a joke. LOL

Sorry, I totally missed it, My bad!

[himela]

To be honest I see nobody left getting the winner's edit. Deshawn got much air time this episode but I think it was due to the POC matter and because of the truth bomb thing. If I had to choose, Erika and Heather got the purple edit for more than half of the episodes so I don't see them winning. Deshawn must be the next one leaving at final five. I could see Ricard and Xander fighting it out at the fire challenge and as usual the last years the winner of this challenge will also be the winner of the game. It's between Xander and Ricard in my opinion, with Xander being more possible because of Xander's friends at the jury. Tiffany, Evie, Danny, Deshawn and Naseer I think vote for Xander because he is the strongest player.

[peachmangosteen]

13 minutes ago, himela said:

Tiffany, Evie, Danny, Deshawn and Naseer I think vote for Xander because he is the strongest player.

Exit interviews from much of the jury don't suggest they even like Xander much, let alone see him as a strong player.

[CountryGirl]

The more I think about this season, the more I think that Xander was in an impossible situation from the start. Either he's too much of a threat or not enough. He has been able to work with an alliance (the tenuous one with Tiffany/Evvie, then the Ricard/Heather/Erika, now the Deshawn/Erika one) but he spent most of the pre-merge trying to survive a tribe that was clearly trying to get rid of him. At merge, he's faced a dominant tribe with a 4-person alliance, and his old tribe, with little room to maneuver. The perception for some is that he didn't make relationships and alliances and therefore wasn't a threat. But he has tried to form an alliance since Yase (as noted above). He was very loyal to Evvie even though she kept him at arm's length and plotted against him from the beginning in favor of a woman's alliance. He saved her once, despite all of this, only to learn how she had immediately told Danny about his idol. Why in the world should he have tried to work with her after that when she was clearly not loyal and would have turned on him AGAIN the moment she had the chance. He also tried to make inroads with Tiffany by giving her the idol, clearing showing he trusted her as she could have easily kept it or blabbed to the others that she had it so they could get him out. But his trust was misplaced as she, like Evvie, had no real interest in keeping him around for the long haul, only for using him/his idol for as long as it served her purposes. He also tried to work with Danny, but got burned during Evvie's ouster. 

No matter what he has tried, he gets shot down so he's forced to play the floater game. He's been playing from behind the entire game and sure, one could argue, that's on Xander, but is it? He sought out perceived power-player Evvie as his #1 in what could have been a masterful alliance but she was all about women strong and showed she was only willing to work with with him when it was beneficial for her. Tiffany was much the same.

As far as them not attempting to flush the idol, their first attempt failed so spectacularly and he continued to bluff and not play it when he could very well have been in danger on subsequent TCs so perhaps they didn't want to take the risk again. Nothing we've been shown gives us a clear-cut reason why the others are ignoring it (and it's obviously a moot point at F5 now anyone) and shrugging him off as no longer a threat. Whatever their reasons, that somehow translating into Xander being a goat (of any kind, new or the same ilk as Heather) doesn't make any sense to me. As far as exit interview/Ponderosa comments, et al (which I won't speak to here since non-episode talk), I've never put much stock in those because the same people will swear up and down "so and so was this or that" or "I'll never vote for him" or "she's getting my vote" and then turn around and say and do the opposite come FTC. 

But I feel like I'm beating a dead horse (named Xander LOL) at this point and will just sit back and see how the finale plays out.

 

[himela]

54 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

Exit interviews from much of the jury don't suggest they even like Xander much, let alone see him as a strong player.

If he is sitting next to Erika and Heather?

[Nashville]

3 minutes ago, himela said:

If he is sitting next to Erika and Heather?

Then I think Erika gets the Grrl Power votes of Evvie, Liana, Tiffany and Shan - and so long as Erika picks up at least one more vote from any of the remaining jurors, she wins. 

[himela]

3 minutes ago, Nashville said:

Then I think Erika gets the Grrl Power votes of Evvie, Liana, Tiffany and Shan - and so long as Erika picks up at least one more vote from any of the remaining jurors, she wins. 

No way Evvie and Tiffany betray their original tribe member. It's not like Erika played a good game to even consider doing that. She was just a goat who is still in the game by pure luck.

[rr2911]

17 hours ago, lilysmom said:

So would Heather be the GOAT (sporty meaning) goat (survivor meaning)??

In this context, Heather would the goat (survivor meaning)

[ProfCrash]

2 hours ago, Nashville said:

Then I think Erika gets the Grrl Power votes of Evvie, Liana, Tiffany and Shan - and so long as Erika picks up at least one more vote from any of the remaining jurors, she wins. 

This. Xander does not get Liana's vote if he was sitting next to a dead fish. Evvie and Tiffany are probably not happy with his decision to complete dump both of them especially since he didn't have another option. I think it is a different story if Xander can say "Hey, Ricard, Erika, and Heather wanted to work with me so I formed an alliance with them. I know that the three of us were dead in the water and needed to find another path forward." but that is not what happened. And while we can all see that the three were in a bad place, dropping your only allies for no allies is not exactly brilliant game play. Tiffany could argue that they could have used the idol and extra vote when she was voted out to keep the three of them alive and take out one of the power players.

Erika is more likely to get their votes because she has been named as playing, even if it is a more low key game, and Evvie is all into a woman winning the season.

[blackwing]

It seems likely that either Deshawn or Ricard will go out next.   Based on this episode, with Deshawn being a loose cannon, I would think I would get rid of him next.  Then Ricard has things in his own destiny as to whether he can win immunity to protect himself.

2 hours ago, himela said:

No way Evvie and Tiffany betray their original tribe member. It's not like Erika played a good game to even consider doing that. She was just a goat who is still in the game by pure luck.

There is absolutely no way that Evvie will vote for Xander.  She is a bitter person, look at her expressions on the jury.  I bet she's still upset that he didn't play his idol for her.  In her mind, she probably thinks she would have won the game if he had saved her.  Tiffany's EW exit interview, she seemed a bit bitter at Xander as well, I wouldn't be surprised if she voted for Erika.

There's still time left, but right now if it was a final three of Xander, Erika and Heather... it seems to me that Xander has done more in the game, but if people don't like him and don't want him to win, then he has failed at the social game.   Erika would benefit if he is disliked.  I would assume that the jury can recognise that Erika was actually playing the game while Heather probably cannot point to one single thing she did in the game on her own, besides utterly failing at that ball-in-the-track reward challenge.  Heather's speech would talk about how she is old and never gave up, but beyond that, I am not sure what she would say.