S03.E09: All the Bells Say

[marybennet]

What was thrilling to me in this episode was the siblings coming together, even Roman for whom it was so difficult.  The image of the three together just before Kendall got up from the ground was echoed and changed in the image of Kendall patting Roman with Shiv in the same little grouping just at the end. 
 

What is really sad to me is that that unity won’t last:  Roman will cave and Shiv’s game face in front of Tom says that she’ll return to caring for her own interest alone, which is different now again from Roman and Kendall’s because she’s married to Tom, who has an in the new arrangement (with Logan, at least, if not with Matsson).  

[Evie]

I was happy to see the siblings finally united and proud of Roman for standing up to Logan. I do feel for them, being fucked by both their mom and dad, but not that bad since they have oodles of money. Logan's right that they can go build their own empires. I know that in their minds, being the successor equals their dad's love though, so this was a real blow.

I was cheering Tom on when I realized he backstabbed them, and he brought Greg along as his attack dog. Who needs a soul anyway. Shiv kind of deserved this after the way she treated him all season. Now, he's the one with the power in their relationship.

Willa accepting the proposal by saying "How bad can it be. Fuck it" made my day. 

 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Evie

[Athena5217]

2 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

What did Caroline do?  She retroactively wrote the kids out of having any power in the business decisions?

Kendall said the terms of the divorce settlement included language about her kids having to approve any sale of the company. However, Logan talked Caroline into renegotiating the divorce settlement terms to remove that clause. I have no idea how 1) this can even be an issue in a publicly traded company and 2) how they can renegotiate a divorce settlement so many years later. 
 

 I got the impression from something one of the kids said ts thry would lose their board seats if GoJo bought the company. They would still be shsreholders so not totally powerless but much less so

[Lady S.]

14 minutes ago, Athena5217 said:

That woman knows where all the bodies are buried at Waystar. It  just wasn’t in her best interests or the shareholders to try to stop the sale, as she told Roman. 

You think she would have gone against her best interests if not for a dink pic? What had Roman done before to get that kind of loyalty? She was mentoring him by helping learn to help himself, not becoming his actual mommy.

 

13 minutes ago, dmc said:

 

I don't think Roman was out of the running.  Logan was like you should have trusted me?  So it did in the since that Shiv rattled Roman and got him to do another stupid thing

Logan selling means they were all out of the running. Then he told Roman to get rid of Kendall so he could talk to Shiv alone.

Edited December 13, 2021 by Lady S.

[marybennet]

Classical literature with its internal family struggles is always so behind this show. Logan is the father who can’t bear the thought of succession, even by his children, because it means he will have been succeeded. 
Better to sell the kingdom away. 

Edited December 13, 2021 by marybennet

[Athena5217]

1 minute ago, Lady S. said:

You think she would have gone against her best interests if not for a dick pic? 

 

No, I don’t. I was making a joke about the dick pic. I do think it is hilarious that Roman expected her to after all the demeaning things he said to her.

[dmc]

Just now, Lady S. said:

You think she would have gone against her best interests if not for a dick pic? 

 

Logan selling means they were all out of the running. Then he told Roman to get rid of Kendall so he could talk to Shiv alone. 

Right the you should trusted me means before now, it's too late...I am selling...

He did what he always plays them off each other.  

But after this season, I am convinced...Shiv should not have the top job

 

[juno]

Just need a bit of help. What happened to the shares of the children? Aren't they worth billions? Do they all get paid out if there is a merger? Thanks

[Lassus]

5 minutes ago, Athena5217 said:

Kendall said the terms of the divorce settlement included language about her kids having to approve any sale of the company. However, Logan talked Caroline into renegotiating the divorce settlement terms to remove that clause. I have no idea how 1) this can even be an issue in a publicly traded company and 2) how they can renegotiate a divorce settlement so many years later. 

Very good point. 

Seems to me Logan could be lying to get a leg up on the kids mentally/emotionally, and Caroline might just not give a shit and have been convinced it wasn't a lie.

Also, still hoping for help on Greg's business talk this episode.

[dmc]

1 minute ago, juno said:

Just need a bit of help. What happened to the shares of the children? Aren't they worth billions? Do they all get paid out if there is a merger? Thanks

Yes and maybe... sometimes mergers mean a payout and sometimes you can retain shares in the new entity 

Edited December 13, 2021 by dmc

[marybennet]

Caroline wanted to renegotiate the divorce settlement so she could keep the London flat and Logan sweetened the deal by saying he’d do something for her new husband, who wanted his influence. 

[DoubleUTeeEff]

2 minutes ago, Athena5217 said:

Kendall said the terms of the divorce settlement included language about her kids having to approve any sale of the company. However, Logan talked Caroline into renegotiating the divorce settlement terms to remove that clause. I have no idea how 1) this can even be an issue in a publicly traded company and 2) how they can renegotiate a divorce settlement so many years later. 

And she did it so that her new husband would get the thing he wanted from Logan--something to do with his business and using Logan's connections with the government to loosen regulations. "Peter is thrilled about it." So all her talk about giving into Logan's demands for custody so that her kids would have control of the company was bullshit. She never cared about them if she was willing to sell them out to make her new husband happy. I think she was happy to be free of them and didn't mind trying to stick it to Logan when she could but as soon as he had something she wanted, she caved on that stipulation.

I can't imagine being Shiv and finding out you were betrayed in turn by your father, mother and husband in the matter of minutes. She did kind of reap what she sowed with Tom but still that's got to really sting.

[dmc]

I have to go to bed even though I’m to keyed up to go to sleep now.  Why didn’t we get 10 episodes this  season

Edited December 13, 2021 by dmc

[thuganomics85]

Well, that just happened!

At long last, Tom makes his move and it is a pretty damn big one!  The signs were probably always there, but looking back, it really was probably set in stone the moment he refused Kendall's offer episodes ago and declared that Logan "never gets fucked."  Right or wrong, Tom was already of the opinion that Logan was untouchable and there would be no benefit for him to ever cross him.  And then you factor in how not only does the majority of the family treat him like shit, but his own damn wife barely seems to tolerate him; let along love him; then, well.... you get Tom almost single-handily taking down all of the Roy siblings without them ever seeing it coming.  Yep, that all just happened!  We will see how long this victory last (you never know with this show), but I'm definitely looking forward to seeing a more active Tom going forward.  And what this means for him and Shiv, because while she clearly knows it was him, I don't see her leaving him: if nothing else, just for the sake of protecting her own image and reputation.

It also sounds like Tom is going to look after Greg as well.  That goof is going to continue to fall upward, isn't he?!  Of course, we also got that scene of how he quickly he jump back and forth with agreeing with what both Comfy and the Countess wanted to hear at the wedding, and it was a nice reminder that underneath all of the silly, entertaining hijinks stuffed in a gigantic meat suit shaped like Nicholas Braun, likes a slimy snake as well.  I fear for the potential twenty Gregs that might end up working for Cousin Greg!

Taken in a void, Logan really isn't wrong that the Roy siblings need to branch out on their own and try and find their own success without a safety net.  Of course, my issue with that is while a lot of their failures and flaws are still on them and them alone, Logan still played a major role in shaping them and turning them into the adults they are now, so it is extremely rich hearing that from him.  Especially loved how disgusted he was when Roman tried to offer him love.  Because, yes, love would be the ultimate weakness in his eyes.  Again, I can think of numerous negative words and descriptions to lob at the Roy siblings, but Logan will always be the most despicable to me.

Always impressive when scenes of just dialogue and character/actor interplay can be just as riveting as full-blown action scenes, and we got quite a few here like the "intervention" for Kendall scene, Kendall confessing what he did to the waiter to Shiv and Roman, and those final ten minutes.  Almost took my breath away, at the risk of being over-the-top.  Just masterclass acting all the way from everyone involved.

I wonder how much Lukas is going to factor in going forward, since it sounds like he's going to be running the show for a bit.  Hey, when you get someone like Alexander Skarsgard for your role, you better damn well use him!

Also wonder if we'll see more of Caroline and Peter next season.  I have to imagine Caroline basically pulling one over on her kids would have an impact and I feel like the introduction of Peter (and Pip Torrens) will be more than just him being her new husband.

They really loved showing off Italy here!

Connor and Willa are finally getting hitched, even though it seems obvious to everyone but Connor himself that she really, really isn't into the whole thing.

While I understand and agree with some of the complaints that this season might have been weaker than the last one (felt more like it was treading ground in some of the middle episodes), I still think it is a step above most everything and made for some more riveting television.  These characters are so damn awful and yet I can't help but to be fascinating by them and even almost feel for them at times, despite my better judgement.  Hopefully the cast will be showered with some more Emmy love.  My main issue right now is I don't know who I'm pulling for in their respected categories.  If I was forced to pick one, I'd probably go with the somewhat popular choice that Matthew Macfayden was probably the MVP of this entire season, but Kieran Culkin really brought it home these past two episodes as well.  As for lead actor, if it's between Brian Cox and Jeremy Strong again, I'd probably personally go with Cox this go around, but even then I can think of so many moments from Strong this season that would make me perfectly happy for him to get a second trophy.  And, of course, I've love for Sarah Snook to get some love as well.  I guess this is a good problem to have!

Glad I ended up finally getting on board with the show this year and I can't wait to see where they take it next!

[whiporee]

Caroline's husband wanted a title. Logan got it for him. 

I'm not sure Tom sold them out. I think Logan patted Tom's shoulder as a way of fucking Shiv, who now will always doubt. 

[Lassus]

5 minutes ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

I can't imagine being Shiv and finding out you were betrayed in turn by your father, mother and husband in the matter of minutes. She did kind of reap what she sowed with Tom but still that's got to really sting.

I'm firmly in the "kind of" camp here.  It's not like Tom was some kind of helpless, clueless, lovestruck idiot all this time.

3 minutes ago, whiporee said:

I'm not sure Tom sold them out. I think Logan patted Tom's shoulder as a way of fucking Shiv, who now will always doubt. 

I've considered this, but did a single other person know what they were planning?  

It is true Logan might have simply KNOWN about this possibility and prepared, of course, and that Tom had nothing to do with it  He was pretty warm with her at the time.

Edited December 13, 2021 by Lassus

[Athena5217]

17 minutes ago, Evie said:

Willa accepting the proposal by saying "How bad can it be. Fuck it" made my day. 

In another episode, it would have been a huge development. Still, kudos to Willa for the response. She might want to talk to Rava and Tom about how bad it can b to be married to a Roy kid.

[Lady S.]

1 minute ago, Lassus said:

I'm firmly in the "kind of" camp here.  It's not like Tom was some kind of helpless lovestruck idiot all this time.

It says something about Tom that he betrayed her but isn't doing the healthy thing of leaving her, still going in to comfort her. This dog bites when he's been kicked enough times but he still comes back too.

[TomGirl]

36 minutes ago, Evie said:

I was cheering Tom on when I realized he backstabbed them

22 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

At long last, Tom makes his move and it is a pretty damn big one! 

I must be totally dense, but can someone please explain to me exactly what Tom did?  I don’t get it.

[Lassus]

3 minutes ago, TomGirl said:

I must be totally dense, but can someone please explain to me exactly what Tom did?  I don’t get it.

In your defense, I didn't realize it myself until I came to this thread.

[buttersister]

Tom. Did. It.

So many remarkable scenes--and scenery--but that car trip to see Dad was astounding. These three convincing themselves that they could go after the king and win. Holy delusional crap.

[Ms Blue Jay]

I didn't either.  After Shiv called Tom to explain what the 3 siblings were going to do (Or did Tom call her?) Tom immediately called Logan and warned him.

Logan reacted by changing that post-divorce agreement with Caroline.  That gives the children no power in the business decisions as explained upthread.

I was so focused on Roman nearly crying that I didn't realize what Logan greeting Tom meant - but if you rewatch, you can see that Shiv 100% knows what happened.

[aghst]

1 hour ago, HC87 said:

Humor me, but couldn't that attempted coup plot (using the divorce agreement) by the Roy children been attempted long ago??? 

Seems like they just strung out this season on intra-family back-stabbing.

 

1 hour ago, Alexander Pope said:

they could have but they were all too seduced by wanting to win Logan's approval.   It took the season and Kendall's confession to unite them.  This wasn't about reason, it was about emotional breakthroughs that were too long coming.

 

They were never united until this episode.  Kendall proposed that they team up and they wouldn't do it.  Kendall should have said "I told you so, we should have killed him (Logan) back when we had the chance."

I guess they softened a little because of Kendall's almost suicide/accident.  Roman trying to belittle Kerry by asking her to bring him food and her retort about getting him the kid's menu should have been a tipoff that Roman was ready to screw over all the kids.

Then Logan emasculating him, asking him if he was scared of pussy on the boat ride to see Lukas.  Then being dismissed like a child to attend to mommy while Logan remained to talk real business with Lukas.

Then Connor's theory that dad was trying to father a new child, so Logan was trying to replace them.

 But when they got together to talk about Logan possibly cutting them out of the deal, Roman was the holdout.  Of course he was in denial.  What should have united them was not necessarily Kendall unburdening himself and Shiv and Roman consoling him and Roman making him laugh by making jokes but the fact that Logan had screwed over each of them.  Well Roman didn't know it yet but he had a strong suspicions or should have.

Shiv should have treated Tom better over the years or months.  Or maybe not tell him their plan and promising him "something high."  That sounds like a politician making a false promise that he has no intentions of keeping.

She should not have talked shit to her mother either, because after that talk, why should Caroline care if she undermined her and her brothers' positions?

(I'm just wondering when Gil and Nate will screw her over).

That was the longest fucking ride ever.  They called people from that van, including Shiv calling Tom.  By the time they arrived at Logan's villa, Tom had snitched to Logan and Logan had bribed Caroline.  Shiv mentioned Castelluccio?  That's the eastern side of Umbria and they're suppose to be in southern Tuscany or the Chianti area.  But Greve in Chianti (not sure that's where they were) to Castelluccio is over 3 hours!

Logan must not have had specific plan to tell the kids about his deal.  He told Roman and then Shiv that Lukas "rates" them meaning thought of them highly to give them real responsibilities and power?

He was lying to their faces and then finally pulled out the trump card, Caroline lying to their faces.

What recourse do they have?  Well Waystar is going to get a record fine but no jail time for anyone.  So what happened to the docs that Greg hid for the second time?  Maybe he's too preoccupied with his hard-on for Greenpeace and his lust for the contessa/princess -- who's more preoccupied with her social media brand even though she stands to inherit the Duchy of Luxembourg?

 

 

[HC87]

Shiv looked really fat this episode....just sayin' 

Edited December 13, 2021 by HC87

[aghst]

32 minutes ago, Athena5217 said:

In another episode, it would have been a huge development. Still, kudos to Willa for the response. She might want to talk to Rava and Tom about how bad it can b to be married to a Roy kid.

Marriage proposal seemed to be comic relief.

Especially Willa saying "fuck it" because she didn't know if there was going to be something better.  Maybe she was planning to seduce one of Musk's sons or something.

Will they ever have a serious story line for Connor?

Doesn't seem like.

[TomGirl]

7 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

 

I didn't either.  After Shiv called Tom to explain what the 3 siblings were going to do (Or did Tom call her?) Tom immediately called Logan and warned him.

Logan reacted by changing that post-divorce agreement with Caroline.  That gives the children no power in the business decisions as explained upthread.

 

Ah, thank you!!  Got it!

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, aghst said:

She should not have talked shit to her mother either, because after that talk, why should Caroline care if she undermined her and her brothers' positions?

Same reason she allegedly put that clause in in the first place--because she's their mother! I mean, it didn't seem like she felt any worse about Shiv after their conversation. She used the situation to get a good deal for her new husband. She was no doubt lying about the reason she'd put that clause in to begin with. She probably hoped it would benefit her/screw Logan over in some way back then.

Btw, after all my talk of Shiv's dresses last week I thought her dress this week was lovely!

[Ms Blue Jay]

1 minute ago, sistermagpie said:

Btw, after all my talk of Shiv's dresses last week I thought her dress this week was lovely!

I admire her body so much!  

Why is Caroline even marrying this idiot?  There is so much I don't understand.

Edited December 13, 2021 by Ms Blue Jay

[Lady S.]

15 minutes ago, aghst said:

Marriage proposal seemed to be comic relief.

Especially Willa saying "fork it" because she didn't know if there was going to be something better.  Maybe she was planning to seduce one of Musk's sons or something.

I think her reluctance every time Connor asks for more commitment is because she doesn't aspire to be a lifelong golddigger. In her mind she's an artist, a playwright waiting for her big break who just needs some financial support along the way. She doesn't love Connor romantically but she cares for him better than his own family and for all his weirdness she doesn't seem to really mind being with him. I do think she could probably find another sugardaddy if she felt the need, which is why I've never thought she was really trapped with Connor. 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Lady S.

[TomGirl]

31 minutes ago, HC87 said:

Shiv looked really fat this episode....just sayin' 

I actually like the fact that she’s not stick-thin, has real curves and isn’t afraid to show them!

[Bluesky]

2 hours ago, HC87 said:

Humor me, but couldn't that attempted coup plot (using the divorce agreement) by the Roy children been attempted long ago??? 

Seems like they just strung out this season on intra-family back-stabbing.

It could only be used in a complete change of ownership, a buyout?

Their mother is a vile disgusting piece of shit, putting her latest man before her kids.  Common trash.  I’m glad the three siblings are together.    

[Adgirl]

I really liked Roman taking care of Kendall. These are terrible people but it was nice to see them supportive of each other in their horribleness.

I knew Tom would betray their plan. I wondered though if she had her doubts during the van ride.

Greg as the new Tom may be more horrible than them all. I always knew he was a social climber but completely unprepared for him so easily giving up his soul.

[Bluesky]

24 minutes ago, TomGirl said:

I actually like the fact that she’s not stick-thin, has real curves and isn’t afraid to show them!

Ok, what’s wrong with being stick-thin?   
She has gained weight.  Women’s weight can go up and down for a number of reasons.  Nobody’s business.   But FFS give her clothes that fit.   I thought her dress was ruched on one side but it was just bunching up because it was too small for her.  It was a poor choice for her body type and distracting.   I don’t understand why she is wearing ugly cheap looking dresses.  
 

Connor’s fiancée in contrast had a beautiful dress on as usual.   I know they aren’t anything alike and wouldn’t have the same taste but still, no excuse for making Shiv look like shit.    

[CatWarmer]

Riveting episode!  I think my favorite moment was in the car with the three driving to do - what?  They were just planning on confronting Logan with no real plan.  But clearly Kendall - who had been broken and literally down in the dirt - had been thinking like a businessman and not as a child.  Out of nowhere, he lifted his head and said there was a way to stop the sale.  He had thought there was no hope, and now he saw hope, and it revived him.  It was a Kendall we hadn't seen in a very long time - the focused and aware operator.  It was a subtle but powerful change.

I know nothing of the legalities, but did it really matter when Logan cut the deal with Caroline?  If (presumably) Tom hadn't alerted him, couldn't he have done it after they showed up? And it's most likely someone (probably Gerri) would have foreseen the possibility anyway.  And of course as others have pointed out, it might not be legal.  That wouldn't stop Logan, and Caroline wouldn't have a clue.

I also like Mattson name dropping Zuckerberg.  Like Mark said, you know Mark, right?

[Lady S.]

A lot else going on with the golden trio, but Connor didn't see Logan for 3 years. I assume he means after Logan left his mother and that Logan had no choice but to take responsibility for him after his mom ended up in the "booby hatch". This adds even more meaning to him trying to play surrogate daddy. Instead of being resentful and jealous of his younger half-siblings he made an effort so they would never feel as neglected as he did as a child. But look where it got him, constantly shirt on and casually forgotten, because they all internalized that that kind of love as weakness. And if Logan didn't respect his first-born, how could they? 

Also, no wonder they took the idea of Logan trying to have another kid as such a threat if he'd already tried forgetting his first family and starting over once before. (I mean, it's completely different because they're all adults and even if Logan wanted a new son and managed to father one he could well die before the new Roy neared adulthood, but I'm saying I get the emotional response.)

Edited December 13, 2021 by Lady S.

[TheGourmez]

1 hour ago, aghst said:

I guess they softened a little because of Kendall's almost suicide/accident.

I think they quietly understood that Kendall going on about being a bad man, when the "murder" clearly wasn't a murder, was the result of Logan browbeating him. I think seeing the depth of that abuse opened the gates for both Shiv and Roman more to going against their father. 

[Pete Martell]

2 hours ago, TomGirl said:

I actually like the fact that she’s not stick-thin, has real curves and isn’t afraid to show them!

Sarah Snook is gorgeous. I don't like some of the clothes they give Shiv, like that Dick Tracy villain suit she had on when she tried to manipulate Gerri last week, but I have to remind myself not to expect a fashion parade and there's a reason why they sometimes chose less flattering clothes. When they get it right, like that grey knit dress she wore a few episodes back, you  get why Tom held out for as long as he did. 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Pete Martell

[pennben]

4 hours ago, Diapason Untuned said:

hiv had a perfectly good career elsewhere, but Logan manipulated her into giving it up in order to use her to his own ends by promising something he was never going to give her.

Kendall worked his way up the ladder to the point where he was virtually CEO but Logan just pulled the rug out from under him on a whim, then tried to sell him out to save his own neck.

They earned something for that.

They have earned nothing in terms of running a billion dollar publicly traded company. Zip. 
of course this show is showing they equate  approval from the father to being the successor, but it truly doesn’t mean that these middle-aged kids have what it takes to be in charge. 

we can wish for them to overcome the abuse & neglect from their parents but still acknowledge the don’t have leadership potential & shareholders shouldn’t have to pay for daddy issues. 

 

[film noire]

6 hours ago, aghst said:

Then Connor's theory that dad was trying to father a new child, so Logan was trying to replace them.

I loved the moment between Marcia &  Kerry, when Marcia told Kerry she would eat her omelet (eggs!) upstairs - makes me wonder if Marcia knows all about Logan's (possible) decision to father another heir, and if so, what part she'll play when it all plays out.

Edited December 13, 2021 by film noire

[Eliot]

I think my favorite part of the episode was when Roman was wavering and both Shiv and Kendall were saying, “Don’t trust him. He’s lying.” It was like they were both realizing it for themselves, finally and officially, at the same time.

[cardigirl]

Perfection!  If we are to have only nine episodes this season (due to COVID), thank goodness we had this epic episode as the finale. Loved every moment, from Logan reading to his grandson to the realization that Tom has game. * chef's kiss * 

I hope we don't have to wait as long for the next season as we did for this one, but I am willing to wait if they continue to give us storytelling like this! The entire cast was on point and I was riveted the entire episode.  Wow!  I will rewatch this one again, and as others have said, give Kieran Culkin all the awards. Actually give the entire cast all the awards.

Succession, THANK YOU! I have been mightily entertained. 🥰

Edited to add:  How great was Brian Cox as Logan this episode?  While the kids are all focused on their dad possibly banging his assistant and trying for a new baby (maybe she'll be the surrogate?), he's busy focusing on the DEAL and, as he explained to Madsson, it's all boring, except for the DEAL.  What an amazing character!

Edited December 13, 2021 by cardigirl

[Zaffy]

Best episode of the series.
These people are from despicable to insufferable, but Logan is the epitome of the human kind I  hate the most.
His kids are awful and possibly they couldn't handle Waystar's management, but they are *his* creation, *his* doing, *his* failure and he should had given them the keys of the corporate no matter what. I have the feeling he doesn't, not only because he is a grand business player, but mostly because he can't face/deal with his "failed" seeds and well basically his own failure.

The kids are abused by both their horrible parents and I would love a series finale with them achieving some kind of win, like managing to become better people and feel a tad happy for once. Of course I doubt this will happen.

Someone already mentioned how much these rich entitled people seem to ignore completely the amazing Tuscany locations.
I guess one reason the creators chose the specific location was to show this 1%'s attitude of not really caring for the beautiful things..
But I also think  they filmed there for the famous and amazing Mediterranean sun light. I know this light. I live here. It was so familiar to me  and so amazing how the light was playing with the siblings faces during the car ride. This sunset sun light was making Culkin's great performance even better. The cinematography in this scene was simply amazing. It would be interesting to know how many takes (days?) they needed to achieve such perfection.

I do  not know what the creators think for the next season.
But to honest, there is some fatigue from the constant Logan vs his kids fight.
I hope they all leave Waystar and try to build something new.

p.s.
I laughed out loud when the Gojo guy said he wanted to buy Waystar. I did not expect that.
p.s.2
I still think this would the greatest series if it was top 2 seasons long.
p.s.3
I cannot decide if Shiv and Tom are made for eachother or not. I definitely despise Tom. 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Zaffy

[Pestilentia]

7 hours ago, HC87 said:

Shiv looked really fat this episode....just sayin'

Well, she did sort of clutch at her belly as she realized what Tom had done.

They've been discussing baby making an awful lot lately. Maybe they thought they were just talking planning but life found a way and subconsciously Shiv felt it. I know that I knew I was pregnant almost at the moment of conception and stranger things have happened than an accidental pregnancy rocking one's world.   

That would explain the dress which I too thought did not fit quite right- maybe that was intentional.

 

1 hour ago, film noire said:

makes me wonder if Marcia knows all about Logan's (possible) decision to father another heir, and if so, what part she'll play when it all plays out.

I don't think Marcia gives the first crap- she got the deal she wanted for herself and both of her kids. Her 'appearance' at events like this was negotiated and she is well paid. And I think that's as far as it goes for Marcia.

[BC4ME]

Well, this episode really drove home why these three kids are both genetically and environmentally screwed up from both sides. Both parents are horrible. What hope was there for them from the start?

[NeenerNeener]

I don't know which line made me laugh harder:

We just walked in on Mom and Dad fucking us

or

Get in there, Greg. If Roman marries her he'll invade France

[Pete Martell]

Roman and Shiv, particularly Roman in the middle stretch of this season, have been so terrible that I did not want to have sympathy for them, but Sarah Snook and Kieran Culkin are just all too good at finding the vulnerability in their characters. I can't really bring myself to root for the Roy siblings vs. Logan, because they would turn on each other as soon as Logan was gone anyway, but this episode was still very powerful in exploring and exposing just what the abusive behavior of their parents have done to Kendall, Shiv and Roman. The image of Roman - a grown man physically but a battered child mentally - helpless on the ground was harrowing. There is no way out for most of these characters and rearranging the deck chairs don't change that. 

Greg, underneath his aimlessness and aw shucks, is a viper, one with an increasingly venomous bite. Matthew Macfadyen and Nicholas Braun played those extremely difficult scenes (the Tom and Greg edition of a love confession and invitation to a future together) exquisitely. Greg saying "boo souls" and washing his hands of a life of goodness - a life he had already walked away from ages ago anyway - was a sobering yet, due to the chemistry between the actors and the way the scenes were filmed (with Macfadyen's blue eyes making a Disney prince jealous), beautiful moment. Macfadyen plays that aching pain so well, and the show has really leaned into it this season. Braun was more than a match. Greg has never looked as happy, or as sure of himself, as he did in the moment where he officially gave up on ever being anything but the badness around him. 

Greg is going to backstab Tom, and deluded as Tom is, deep down I think he knows this, but with every idealization he had for Shiv in tatters, Greg is all he has left. He took that choice, and the inevitable consequences, like the asp to his neck. 

I know many will want Shiv to "Gone Girl" Tom, but I just feel like she walked into this very slowly through making the worst choices toward him as a partner every time. I feel sorry for her with her parents, but Tom, I can't. I'm sure she will end up crushing him though...and knowing him, he will love her all the more for it. 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Pete Martell

[Lassus]

3 minutes ago, Pete Martell said:

Greg, underneath his aimlessness and aw shucks, is a viper, one with an increasingly venomous bite. Matthew Macfadyen and Nicholas Braun played those extremely difficult scenes (the Tom and Greg edition of a love confession and invitation to a future together) exquisitely. Greg saying "boo souls" and washing his hands of a life of goodness - a life he had already walked away from ages ago anyway - was a sobering yet, due to the chemistry between the actors and the way the scenes were filmed (with Macfadyen's blue eyes making a Disney prince jealous), beautiful moment. Greg is going to backstage Tom, and deluded as Tom is, deep down I think he knows this, but with every idealization he had for Shiv in tatters, Greg is all he has left. He took that choice, and the inevitable consequences, like the asp to his neck.

You were paying attention, so I have to actually ask you.  I'm not sure if it was terribly minor or a setup for later, but what were the business things that Greg was talking about in this episode with Tom a couple of times?  They sounded like actual adult sentences about things, which was confusing.

[Lassus]

I would also like to point out that Kendall did actually call Connor from the car.  

 

EDIT: Although I am told that in the BEHIND THEY EPISODE they confirmed this was Tom, so this seems like dumb speculation on my part. 

That being said, it will be a fun addition to start the next season if it turns out they BOTH called logan.

Edited December 13, 2021 by Lassus

[Jordan Baker]

Most surprising scene of the episode--Logan reading to his grandson. It was both unexpected and funny (the way Logan wanted a book with more action).

[Ellaria]

1 hour ago, Zaffy said:

Best episode of the series...

...Someone already mentioned how much these rich entitled people seem to ignore completely the amazing Tuscany locations.
I guess one reason the creators chose the specific location was to show this 1%'s attitude of not really caring for the beautiful things..
But I also think  they filmed there for the famous and amazing Mediterranean sun light. I know this light. I live here. It was so familiar to me  and so amazing how the light was playing with the siblings faces during the car ride. This sunset sun light was making Culkin's great performance even better. The cinematography in this scene was simply amazing. It would be interesting to know how many takes (days?) they needed to achieve such perfection.

The cinematography was stunning. The beauty of their surroundings was a stark contrast against the desires of these selfish people who seem to care about nothing but blind ambition. I agree about the use of light. Kendall's face actually changed as he gained strength and support from his siblings. Having visited Tuscany once, I agree that it is amazing.

50 minutes ago, Pestilentia said:

I don't think Marcia gives the first crap- she got the deal she wanted for herself and both of her kids. Her 'appearance' at events like this was negotiated and she is well paid. And I think that's as far as it goes for Marcia.

Yes, Marcia cared about getting what she wanted. With that done, she is content. Marcia has no other aspirations.

 

11 minutes ago, Pete Martell said:

Roman and Shiv, particularly Roman in the middle stretch of this season, have been so terrible that I did not want to have sympathy for them, but Sarah Snook and Kieran Culkin are just all too good at finding the vulnerability in their characters. I can't really bring myself to root for the Roy siblings vs. Logan, because they would turn on each other as soon as Logan was gone anyway, but this episode was still very powerful in exploring and exposing just what the abusive behavior of their parents have done to Kendall, Shiv and Roman. The image of Roman - a grown man physically but a battered child mentally - helpless on the ground was harrowing. There is no way out for most of these characters and rearranging the deck chairs don't change that. 

Greg, underneath his aimlessness and aw shucks, is a viper, one with an increasingly venomous bite. Matthew Macfadyen and Nicholas Braun played those extremely difficult scenes (the Tom and Greg edition of a love confession and invitation to a future together) exquisitely. Greg saying "boo souls" and washing his hands of a life of goodness - a life he had already walked away from ages ago anyway - was a sobering yet, due to the chemistry between the actors and the way the scenes were filmed (with Macfadyen's blue eyes making a Disney prince jealous), beautiful moment. Macfadyen plays that aching pain so well, and the show has really leaned into it this season. Braun was more than a match. Greg has never looked as happy, or as sure of himself, as he did in the moment where he officially gave up on ever being anything but the badness around him. 

 

And that's what is so fascinating about this show, IMO. Logan is still the soulless master that cares for nothing but winning. Everyone else is in his orbit is trying to beat him or curry favor. Logan's vulnerability is his mortality. Despite what he may believe, he isn't going to live forever.

While my sympathy for these characters changes from episode to episode, it is not hard to see how deeply damaged they are. None of them are good people but they are incredibly interesting to watch.