S01.E02: Hide and Seek

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

Clint has to help Kate disentangle herself from the Tracksuit mafia and a real-life murder mystery.

Dropping on Wednesday, November 24, 2021.

[AnimeMania]

I didn't like it, I don't know why, but I think it is because the new characters are too rich. I thought in the first episode that Kate's parents were having financial issues. Then her father dies and all of a sudden the family is richer than ever. All through both episodes I was more concerned with how Kate's mother got her wealth than anything else that was shown. I didn't like how Kate destroyed an entire building and her mother whips out her checkbook and the entire incident goes away. Were there people inside the building, the college didn't even kick Kate out or reprimand her. I think I am supposed to be on Kate's side, but I wouldn't want her to be anywhere near me. I think the cavalier way that property is be destroyed is not going to sit well with me. Kate's apartment caught fight, but so did a pizza shop, but if we think about that we won't be able to enjoy the show.

I wish they would start explaining some of the things that are happening before they start moving on to the next thing. Does the fight between Kate's Mother and Armand, or Jack and Armand mean anything? Did the auction or the theft from the auction have any significance? How could all the people from the auction escape through the hole, wouldn't there be Tracksuit Mafia guys at the other end? Why are the tracksuit Mafia so interested in Ronin and not afraid that the cops might show up. Why did the cops want to talk to Kate when it was obvious that the Tracksuit Mafia started the fire?What is Pizza Dog doing, trying to do. Did Pizza Dog take the watch? It seems like Pizza Dog is interested in the Avengers or Avengers stuff in some way.

Pizza dog only has one eye.

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, AnimeMania said:

Were there people inside the building

No.

Quote

I wish they would start explaining some of the things that are happening before they start moving on to the next thing. Does the fight between Kate's Mother and Armand, or Jack and Armand mean anything? Did the auction or the theft from the auction have any significance?

Those are both very obviously plot setups.

Quote

Why are the tracksuit Mafia so interested in Ronin and not afraid that the cops might show up.

Because Ronin killed a bunch of underworld people. Already explained.

Quote

Why did the cops want to talk to Kate when it was obvious that the Tracksuit Mafia started the fire?

There’s obvious questions to ask about why they might have wanted to burn down her apartment.

Edited November 24, 2021 by SeanC

[Llywela]

2 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

Why did the cops want to talk to Kate when it was obvious that the Tracksuit Mafia started the fire?

Most of your questions are related to episode one, so I've answered in the episode one thread. Since Kate's phone call from the police happened in episode two, I'll answer this here. I would imagine it is very standard practice for the police to want to interview someone whose flat was set on fire by assailants with molotov cocktails. It would be very clear to even the most inexperienced officer that something major went down, and they will need to know why. The attack on her apartment links Kate to a criminal gang. Of course the police will want to talk to her about it! Even if all she says is that she has no idea why the attack happened, they have to question her, because it was her apartment so they have to find out what she knows. That's how arson investigations work.

(And her response to the officer on the phone would have come across as super fishy, if he is just a straightforward officer working the case)

Edited November 24, 2021 by Llywela

[Fool to cry]

Clint's son signing "I love you" to him had me verklempt.

Kate's wealth was a holdover from "Young Avengers" where she was the Bruce Wayne/Tony Stark of the group and paid for everything. It was downplayed in the Fraction comics but it was always a part of her backstory.  It's tough nowadays to have a rich protagonist and Tony has never escaped criticism for being a 1 percenter.

Edited November 24, 2021 by Fool to cry

[cambridgeguy]

Did Kate's mom really not notice the fresh wounds her daughter had or was she deliberately being oblivious?  On the other hand, I think Jack knows she was the one in the costume. 

44 minutes ago, Fool to cry said:

Kate's wealth was a holdover from "Young Avengers" where she was the Bruce Wayne/Tony Stark of the group and paid for everything. It was downplayed in the Fraction comics but it was always a part of her backstory.  It's tough nowadays to have a rich protagonist and Tony has never escaped criticism for being a 1 percenter.

I think it pretty much has to be to explain her being an expert archer, fencer, etc. at 22.  Those are pretty expensive hobbies to have, especially if you're getting all that training in your teenage years.  Then throw in how she's going to use the resources of her mom's security company and this doesn't work if Kate's a scrappy middle class kid.

And I've got to say that the show has a very interesting take on how the public views Clint.  It's clear a lot of people recognize him but seem to treat him as a minor celebrity and not particularly formidable fighter - you'd think being an Avenger, even a less popular one, would elicit more of a reaction and respect from the criminal scum.

[Fool to cry]

4 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

Did Kate's mom really not notice the fresh wounds her daughter had or was she deliberately being oblivious?  On the other hand, I think Jack knows she was the one in the costume. 

I think it pretty much has to be to explain her being an expert archer, fencer, etc. at 22.  Those are pretty expensive hobbies to have, especially if you're getting all that training in your teenage years.  Then throw in how she's going to use the resources of her mom's security company and this doesn't work if Kate's a scrappy middle class kid.

And I've got to say that the show has a very interesting take on how the public views Clint.  It's clear a lot of people recognize him but seem to treat him as a minor celebrity and not particularly formidable fighter - you'd think being an Avenger, even a less popular one, would elicit more of a reaction and respect from the criminal scum.

Kate had a good explanation that Clint himself is a "low key" person irregardless of powers and doesn't like to draw attention to himself. He's like George Harrison or the recently passed Charlie Watts of the Rolling Stones.

Edited November 24, 2021 by Fool to cry

[paigow]

28 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

you'd think being an Avenger, even a less popular one, would elicit more of a reaction and respect from the criminal scum.

Thanos probably killed a lot of the scum - then they came back with only "Hawkeye memories" of Avengers 1

[Sakura12]

It's only episode 2, why would they give us all the answers now? These episodes are setting up the conflict and the players. 

I liked it and am interested to see where they are going with the Ronin storyline, Clint became a mass murderer, even if he was going after bad guys. 

Kate being rich with shady parents makes her like Tony. Her mom's fiance is obviously bad, but her mom may be up to something too. (Vera Farmiga was not hired for no reason). I'm sure they will also explain how her mom got their wealth back. Which could be as simple as a good insurance policy since they were already wealthy. She could also be better at running the security company and made it more profitable. 

[arc]

I guess I’m not really in the mood to take a lighthearted view of NY cops. I actually rewatched a bit of the Battle of New York scene in Avengers 1 and I didn’t mind the cops doing their best there, but why would they be LARPing? And let’s not forget Grills (a firefighter, I know) straight up stole that costume from a crime scene.

It’s also kinda amazing the costume fits Clint perfectly and Kate, who’s smaller than Clint, and Grills, who’s clearly taller than Clint.

[Llywela]

I've gotta say, I think I've been watching too much Leverage, because Kate's mother running a security company just screams 'evil' to me. TV security companies are always evil. I'm gonna be waiting for the shoe to drop there all season now.

The Ronin costume was a bit big on Kate, which it should be, but yeah, it is clearly the magical kind of superhero (villain) costume that stretches or expands at need to fit whoever wears it!

[Dandesun]

28 minutes ago, arc said:

I guess I’m not really in the mood to take a lighthearted view of NY cops. I actually rewatched a bit of the Battle of New York scene in Avengers 1 and I didn’t mind the cops doing their best there, but why would they be LARPing? And let’s not forget Grills (a firefighter, I know) straight up stole that costume from a crime scene.

It’s also kinda amazing the costume fits Clint perfectly and Kate, who’s smaller than Clint, and Grills, who’s clearly taller than Clint.

Unstable molecules!!

But yeah, Grills stole that shit flat out. Clint getting it back is clearly protecting his own damn self and I get that but now I'm beginning to wonder what the hell is with that suit that it makes people do flat out illegal things.

All that being said, I really did get a kick out of the whole LARPing thing.

[tennisgurl]

Being rich is an easy way to explain why someone can become a superhero, they can focus on fancy hobbies like fencing and archery instead of working an afterschool job and can afford lots of cool superhero gadgets, plus I think its making for some interesting characterization for Kate. Like her mom said, Kate's young and wealthy and thinks she's indestructible, and only now is she starting to realize that she is very much not the hot shit she has always thought she was and is pretty out of her league. It also makes a nice contrast with Clint, who lives a pretty simple life on the farm when he isn't fighting bad guys, which he is perfectly fine with while Kate thinks he should try to stand out more. Plus i think her being high society but a bit awkward about it, like wearing a suite to a fancy event, is interesting.

The montage of Clint's adventures as an explanation as to why he wears a hearing aid was pretty great, I appreciate how they are quickly answering questions that the audience is probably asking in very simple ways. Awww Clint's son signing that he loves him! Such cuteness.  

The true victims of gentrification...gangsters who need to use abandoned warehouses for their illegal activities. And just after Clint had to fight through an army of LARPERS to get his stuff back. What a day. I would say its weird how chill people are about seeing an actual superhero around, but at this point in the MCU the citizens are just remarkably used to all kinds of superhero hijinks.  

Its clear that Jack is up to something, down to downplaying his fencing skills, but I am not totally sure her mom doesn't have some skeletons in her closet as well. It sounds like their family was having money problems before the Battle of New York, and maybe her mom just took advantage of the post aliens world to make a killing in security, or maybe there is something else going on. 

Clint and Kate have great chemistry, but best boy Pizza Dog is the real star.

Edited November 24, 2021 by tennisgurl

[Cobalt Stargazer]

1 minute ago, tennisgurl said:

 It also makes a nice contrast with Clint, who lives a pretty simple life on the farm when he isn't fighting bad guys, which he is perfectly fine with while Kate thinks he should try to stand out more.

"Your problem is branding."

"No, my problem is you."

Snerk.

[arc]

Is it me, or does Jack’s accent go all over the place?

[paigow]

Sisterhood of the Travelling Pants explains magically resizing Ronin suit

Edited November 25, 2021 by paigow

[Brn2bwild]

At the very end, when they reveal the big bad in the warehouse, did anyone else think it would be 

Spoiler

Yelena?  She had the appearance/wardrobe of a Black Widow.

 

[thuganomics85]

The Tracksuit Mafia is already becoming one of those criminal organizations that I'm kind of loving.  Sure, they aren't good guys here (to put it mildly), but complaining about the lack of warehouses due to them being torn down for condos or trying to conduct a simple interrogation but keep getting interrupted/disrespected?  Relatable, man!  It's hard out there for modern criminal syndicates!  Curious to see more of the potential big boss next episode.

Not sure why Kate being wealthy is a problematic origin story when we have the likes of Tony Stark and Bruce Wayne around and more than thriving amongst comic fans.  If anything, it's a common theme in comics to have their hero start out from a place of privilege and then get knocked off their pedestal and come off stronger.  It seems clear to me that this is where things are heading with Kate, and I'm fine with it.  Just don't see a real issue here.

Jack is clearly slimy as hell, but I still think Eleanor is going to end up being just as big of a problem for the duo: if not even more.

Have a feeling the LARPers will be back in some form.

I agree with what was mentioned above that Clint/Hawkeye's "celebrity status" seems to be in that interesting spot where a lot of people do recognize him, but reactions are milder compared to his peers: like he's the least popular member of a famous band or part of an ensemble in a popular television/movie series that it outshone by the leads (hey, wait a minute!)

Jeremy Renner and Hailee Steinfeld are already working great together.  Can't wait for more Adventures of Clint and Kate!

[cambridgeguy]

1 hour ago, arc said:

I guess I’m not really in the mood to take a lighthearted view of NY cops. I actually rewatched a bit of the Battle of New York scene in Avengers 1 and I didn’t mind the cops doing their best there, but why would they be LARPing? And let’s not forget Grills (a firefighter, I know) straight up stole that costume from a crime scene.

Because cops (and firefighters) aren't a monolith?  There are tens of thousands of NYPD and NYFD employees, so it's not a stretch for some to be LARPers, just like there are some who would probably think of them as lunatics for doing that in their spare time.  And as other people have mentioned, those LARPers will probably be back since I'm sure all sorts of mayhem is coming in future episodes. 

[paigow]

The LARPer scrolls were clearly written by Chekhov...

[arc]

2 hours ago, paigow said:

Sisterhood of the Travelling Pants explains magically resizing Ronin suit

The bright side of this is no one is ever gonna say "you know what, Hawkeye and Ronin are the same size, maybe there's a link"

[MrWhyt]

14 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

I wish they would start explaining some of the things that are happening before they start moving on to the next thing.

it's a shame they only made these two episodes, who knows what we'd learn if they had produced more.

Quote

Why did the cops want to talk to Kate when it was obvious that the Tracksuit Mafia started the fire?

the police generally like to talk to people who are victims of/witnesses to violent crime, it part of that whole "investigate crime" thing they dabble in.

Quote

What is Pizza Dog doing, trying to do

be a dog

[SnarkShark]

Episode 2 is definitely a letdown.  NONE of that Larping crap needed to be in that.  It dragged.  It wasn't funny.  Acquiring the suit could have happened any other way with nothing lost from the show.

The awkward dinner and fencing stuff was okay, but needed some sharper dialogue.

The Track Suit Mafia stuff was a bit better.  It was very noticeable they cut the initial scene since a line of dialogue from the trailer was gone.  The cuts saved time, I guess, but did make it feel like his capture was out of the blue.  The WH scene was probably the best stuff in the Epi.

The very ending probably only had impact for comic readers. Everyone else is probably "huh, so its a deaf woman?"

[SeanC]

9 minutes ago, SnarkShark said:

The very ending probably only had impact for comic readers. Everyone else is probably "huh, so its a deaf woman?"

For a non-reader it's "ooh, a mysterious new villain who we'll learn more about next week".

[Racj82]

I've never understood having a problem with showing positive examples of cops. After last year, I still don't. It's not negating the bad ones out there. 

I'm enjoying the show. I don't get caught up minor things when I watch shows so usually end up with very little nitpicks. 

I'm also just happy to see Hawkeye get some shine. I get tired of the Hawkeye jokes. He's not my favorite avenger or anything but let's be real. The man doesn't miss his target. That's a super human talent in itself. Black Widow in the mcu makes way less sense as an avenger but Clint is the one that gets roasted all the time.

I hope to see some more/better hand to hand combat. I always prefer that over cgi  stunts. So, I'm always all for more ground stories with fight choreography in them.

[RedElf]

Kate's aunt is named Moira Brandon.  That's the name of the actress on the movie poster.

I think Kate's mom is a bad guy.

17 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

I didn't like it, I don't know why, but I think it is because the new characters are too rich. I thought in the first episode that Kate's parents were having financial issues. Then her father dies and all of a sudden the family is richer than ever.

But Tony Stark is okay, huh?

Did you SEE the house they lived in before the Battle of New York?  They were rich then.

7 hours ago, arc said:

Is it me, or does Jack’s accent go all over the place?

Tony Dalton is Mexican-American.

[johntfs]

7 hours ago, Llywela said:

I've gotta say, I think I've been watching too much Leverage, because Kate's mother running a security company just screams 'evil' to me. TV security companies are always evil. I'm gonna be waiting for the shoe to drop there all season now.

The Ronin costume was a bit big on Kate, which it should be, but yeah, it is clearly the magical kind of superhero (villain) costume that stretches or expands at need to fit whoever wears it!

It actually doesn't.  The costume looks somewhat over-sized for Kate.  One to consider is that Hailee Steinfeld is 5' 8" and Jeremy Renner is 5' 8.5" so height-wise the suit would fit them both.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

52 minutes ago, RedElf said:

But Tony Stark is okay, huh?

Did you SEE the house they lived in before the Battle of New York?  They were rich then.

They were, but there was some financial calamity brewing. In the first episode, Kate was eavesdropping on her parents arguing, and Eleanor stated flat out they should sell the penthouse. Derek snaps back in the negative, and Eleanor replies, "Why? Because that's an actual solution?" It's never elaborated on why they were having money trouble, and then Derek was killed during the beginning of the New York fight. If Kate's mom is on the up and up, there's the chance that her company has government contracts or something, and she does legitimate security work for them. Jack's so obviously shady that I'd be surprised if he wasn't doing things he shouldn't, but it's not as obvious if Eleanor is a bad guy or not.

[MrWhyt]

36 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

but it's not as obvious if Eleanor is a bad guy or not

a good life insurance policy on daddy Bishop could have turned their whole financial situation around.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

Did Kate's mom really not notice the fresh wounds her daughter had or was she deliberately being oblivious?

Given her interests that probably not the first time she’s shown up with fresh wounds. 

11 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

On the other hand, I think Jack knows she was the one in the costume. 

I agree. When she ran in to him and his uncle in the suit her eyes and voice gave her away. Which makes me wonder if the uncles murder could be because he recognized her. 

[AnimeMania]

1 hour ago, RedElf said:

17 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

I didn't like it, I don't know why, but I think it is because the new characters are too rich. I thought in the first episode that Kate's parents were having financial issues. Then her father dies and all of a sudden the family is richer than ever.

But Tony Stark is okay, huh?

Did you SEE the house they lived in before the Battle of New York?  They were rich then.

It wasn't just that she was rich, but if you are going to be a rich superhero, you want to see some kind of moral compass that points towards wanting to help everybody, which I just wasn't seeing. I might have helped if we saw her interacting with her friends. I only saw how she treated her mother who seemed to be losing out to the memory of Kate's dead father. The mother seemed like she was trying to give Kate a great life, but Kate didn't seem to appreciate what her mother did for. Or be supportive that her mother might want to date again 12 years? after her husband's death. The only thing that I thought she was slightly considerate to was a dog.

11 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

Did Kate's mom really not notice the fresh wounds her daughter had or was she deliberately being oblivious?  On the other hand, I think Jack knows she was the one in the costume.

Did she see her daughter after the explosion, I am guessing she was relieved she only had minor injuries from the debris.

I am pretty sure that Jack recognized her voice.

[Guest]

16 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

It wasn't just that she was rich, but if you are going to be a rich superhero, you want to see some kind of moral compass that points towards wanting to help everybody, which I just wasn't seeing. I might have helped if we saw her interacting with her friends. I only saw how she treated her mother who seemed to be losing out to the memory of Kate's dead father. The mother seemed like she was trying to give Kate a great life, but Kate didn't seem to appreciate what her mother did for.

We’re barely into her origin story. This is like criticizing Tony for still being a selfish jerk 30 minutes into Iron Man. Kate isn’t trying to be a rich superhero. She is just a young woman with a lot of skills who was concerned that her future stepfather is shady and worried about her mom. 

16 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

Or be supportive that her mother might want to date again 12 years? after her husband's death.

We have no idea if Kate was supportive of her mother wanting to date. That’s not what happened in this episode. She wasn’t supportive that her mother got engaged without telling her to a man who is shady and lying. Should Kate really be blindly supportive when she knows what she knows?

Edited November 25, 2021 by Guest

[shantown]

I have two quick questions that are possibly quite dumb, but I’ve been watching some of the Marvel shoes after not watching the majority of the movies (weird choice, I KNOW!).

The convo about Tony selling the tower a few years ago - Tony is dead, right? I didn’t completely miss out on something big there? Wouldn’t a lot of his properties been sold after he died? It seemed like a strange thing to mention and I’m confused if I’m overthinking it. 

All the items that were at the secret auction - Did they explain how they got all these Avengers items? It seemed like black market superhero auctions were kind of the norm so I wasn’t sure if I was supposed to be more suspicious or not. 

Okay, thank you to anyone who can help a confused old lady!

[SnarkShark]

48 minutes ago, AnimeMania said:

It wasn't just that she was rich, but if you are going to be a rich superhero, you want to see some kind of moral compass that points towards wanting to help everybody, which I just wasn't seeing.

Gee, its a shame this wasn't an origin story where we see someone before they become a superhero and in the process likely gain that moral insight.

Oh wait...

Put aside the rich thing.  Even poor superheroes have story arcs leading to becoming what we want them to be.   Spider-Man let that crook run past him, who later killed his Uncle, right?  

[Chicago Redshirt]

17 minutes ago, shantown said:

I have two quick questions that are possibly quite dumb, but I’ve been watching some of the Marvel shoes after not watching the majority of the movies (weird choice, I KNOW!).

The convo about Tony selling the tower a few years ago - Tony is dead, right? I didn’t completely miss out on something big there? Wouldn’t a lot of his properties been sold after he died? It seemed like a strange thing to mention and I’m confused if I’m overthinking it. 

All the items that were at the secret auction - Did they explain how they got all these Avengers items? It seemed like black market superhero auctions were kind of the norm so I wasn’t sure if I was supposed to be more suspicious or not. 

Okay, thank you to anyone who can help a confused old lady!

Yes, Tony is dead. He died at the end of Endgame, which takes place in MCU's 2023. The director of Hawkeye has said this show is set around Christmas 2025, so about two years later than Tony's death. It presumably was the case that Tony, rather than his estate, sold the tower well before the events of Endgame. After all, the Avengers were at the compound in upstate NY and weren't using it.

No explanation has been given on the show as to how the items were procured. But presumably someone went to the Avengers compound to salvage what could be salvaged after Thanos blew the place up real good, and arranged for the auction for these shady 1 percenters.

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, shantown said:

The convo about Tony selling the tower a few years ago - Tony is dead, right? I didn’t completely miss out on something big there? Wouldn’t a lot of his properties been sold after he died? It seemed like a strange thing to mention and I’m confused if I’m overthinking it. 

Yes, he is dead. He sold Avengers Tower in the first Spider-Man movie. It is a big part of the plot and really just a call back here. 

[AnimeMania]

49 minutes ago, SnarkShark said:

Gee, its a shame this wasn't an origin story where we see someone before they become a superhero and in the process likely gain that moral insight.

Here's hoping it happens soon because right now she sucks.

[swanpride]

Well, I will say something about the set-up in the discussion for the first episode, but just this much: I don't trust the mother. Frankly, I get the impression that she is the actual villain in this game, and she might be the killer, too. I also wouldn't count out the father yet - whenever there is no body, I am getting suspicious. But the mother is bad news for sure. She is incredible manipulative (gives me Mother Gothel vibes to be hones), plus, she has a security firm, and aren't people who have access to our data the modern villains? 

[Minneapple]

I figured the lady at the end would be either Kate's mom or Yelena. I also figured Kate and her mom got a bunch of insurance money after her dad died and that solved their money problems.

I enjoyed these first two eps. Hailee and Jeremy have good chemistry. Love Clint with his kids, how his daughter knew right away that seeing Fake Nat was bothering him and Nate signing "I love you." And how Clint doesn't stop being a dad even when he's not with his kids. 

Kate is a total disaster and I love her so far. I cracked up at her wearing her aunt's clothes. She and her mom are what I like to call exasperatingly rich. They are greatly privileged and know it but it's so much a part of their lives that they're completely casual about it. Oh, you destroyed a bell tower and I have to write a check? Make it up to me by going to a charity auction! Your credit cards are canceled but you can swan off to your high rise loft and pout about it!

[Fool to cry]

I'm beginning to think the mom is sketchy as well. 

There are fans of Kate in the comics who are watching only because of her and who hate MCU Hawkeye both because they don't like Renner and they prefer the Matt Fraction depiction where he's a single guy who's a mess. I say if you want that version watch Johnny Lawrence in COBRA KAI. The first Iron Man movie pretty much destroyed any chance of seeing the comics version of Hawkeye. Why do we need a wisecracker who annoys Cap when we already have one but who's rich, a scientific genius and got a cool suit of armor instead of just shoots arrows? Fans liked him when it seemed he was Black Widow's love interest but AGE OF ULTRON  ruined their Budapest fanfics. Then handsome young  Pietro gets killed saving him, he's shown killing POC  and Natasha  sacrifices her life for him in Endgame and Clint is pretty much forever persona non grata for a segment of the fan base. 

Edited November 25, 2021 by Fool to cry

[arc]

 

3 hours ago, shantown said:

All the items that were at the secret auction - Did they explain how they got all these Avengers items?

It’s just looting. A higher end version of what Michael Keaton’s character did in Homecoming. The line about how the dinosaur skull was strictly for home display strongly implied it was illicitly obtained and thus so were the other items at the auction.

2 hours ago, Dani said:

He sold Avengers Tower in the first Spider-Man movie. It is a big part of the plot and really just a call back here. 

Dang, I totally don’t remember that from Homecoming. Oh wait, I guess they were moving a ton of high value goods out of the tower, but I still somehow didn’t get that they were all the way moving out, not just splitting into the city base and the suburban base.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

4 hours ago, Fool to cry said:

 Fans liked him when it seemed he was Black Widow's love interest but AGE OF ULTRON  ruined their Budapest fanfics. Then handsome young  Pietro gets killed saving him, he's shown killing POC  and Natasha  sacrifices her life for him in Endgame and Clint is pretty much forever persona non grata for a segment of the fan base. 

Well...

To say that a segment of the fan base is fickle would be to redefine the word. There might be characters who are better than Hawkeye, but there are also characters who are worse - 'mewling quim' in The Avengers alone should have killed the Loki adoration dead in its tracks, but it didn't - so I take most antipathy towards Barton with a grain of salt. Granted, he's never been given very much to do, so you had to look past both Rogers and Stark taking up seventy percent of the screen time to see what was he was up to, but that's a writing issue. It's difficult to develop much of a fan base when you're mostly in the background while the larger personalities get the attention.

 

6 hours ago, Dani said:

We have no idea if Kate was supportive of her mother wanting to date. That’s not what happened in this episode. She wasn’t supportive that her mother got engaged without telling her to a man who is shady and lying. Should Kate really be blindly supportive when she knows what she knows?

I was about to say that Kate didn't know her mom had gotten engaged from Eleanor. Even Jack didn't mention it before they went to the charity thing, she had to hear it from Armand, who she had just met. It might have helped if he hadn't tried psychoanalyzing her in this episode, talking about how she resents him but also wants his approval. Like, dude, read the room. She might have known you were involved or dating, but engaged is a whole other level. If she's salty, she might need a minute to get used to it.

[Sakura12]

I'm just going with Kate's mom is shady because she's played by Vera Farmiga. Nothing in show has pointed to her yet. While Jack basically has a target on his head saying BAD GUY. I'm just thinking that while we all look at Jack because we are supposed to, Eleanor is the real mastermind. 

I've even seen theories that she killed her husband during the attack because she had the opportunity to and got his life insurance payout. While Kate was running around screaming for her parents, we didn't hear them calling for her. 

[DaWezl]

5 hours ago, Fool to cry said:

There are fans of Kate in the comics who are watching only because of her and who hate MCU Hawkeye both because they don't like Renner and they prefer the Matt Fraction depiction where he's a single guy who's a mess. 

I’ve never read any of the source comics, so I’m going only by the movie canon, but Hawkeye has always bothered me as written bc they both want him to be this ultra dedicated family man, but then they also constantly have him ignoring his family as he forges deep emotional connections with these other women.  I liked the small touch here of having his wife reference the situation he was dealing with to indicate he’s told her pretty much everything, but I find the whole setup gets in the way of me enjoying his scenes with Black Widow/Kate because like here, he’s being this “dad” figure to Kate as he ditches his own daughter who, last time we saw her was practicing herself to get good at archery.  I’d much rather he’d initially turned to being Ronin bc he’d permanently lost his wife/family or something, bc I wouldn’t feel as conflicted about the connections he forges with his female coworkers.

In general, I feel like the pacing of the series is a bit weird.  Some things are taking waaay too long, and other things are going by too fast.  But I do like some nods to reality, like Clint having lost his hearing or Kate not being instantly skilled and having to flail around a bit in her fights.  I also am enjoying the snarky confidence of the Track Suit Mafia, and think they’re the perfect foils for a show like this—challenging but not so overpowered that they feel unbeatable.  And Lucky/Pizza Dog seems like he will be fun!

[tv echo]

There was a lot more Clint in the second episode, which I liked...

Clint mock fighting as a LARPER was hilarious, especially considering his considerable sword skills as Ronin. He had to try not to hurt anyone.

I like how Clint is so fed up with it all that nothing fazes him, not even being greatly outnumbered by the Track Suit Mafia and being threatened with guns. 

It seems clear that this series was going to be about the developing relationship between Clint and Kate. Kate loses her father as a child and then finds a father figure in her long-time hero and presumed new mentor, Clint.  

Yeah, I don't trust Kate's mom. I wouldn't be surprised if we find out that she killed Kate's dad.

ETA: Marvel's recap of this episode:
‘Hawkeye’: Episode 2 Rundown, Bro
BY RACHEL PAIGE   November 24, 2021
https://www.marvel.com/articles/tv-shows/hawkeye-episode-2-recap 

Edited November 25, 2021 by tv echo

[Ailianna]

10 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

They were, but there was some financial calamity brewing. In the first episode, Kate was eavesdropping on her parents arguing, and Eleanor stated flat out they should sell the penthouse. Derek snaps back in the negative, and Eleanor replies, "Why? Because that's an actual solution?" It's never elaborated on why they were having money trouble, and then Derek was killed during the beginning of the New York fight. If Kate's mom is on the up and up, there's the chance that her company has government contracts or something, and she does legitimate security work for them. Jack's so obviously shady that I'd be surprised if he wasn't doing things he shouldn't, but it's not as obvious if Eleanor is a bad guy or not.

I don't think the problem has to be financial. Obviously it's written so that's the immediate conclusion but there could be other reasons they need to get out of that penthouse. Neither Kate nor the audience heard enough to know what the problem was.

8 hours ago, shantown said:

 

All the items that were at the secret auction - Did they explain how they got all these Avengers items? It seemed like black market superhero auctions were kind of the norm so I wasn’t sure if I was supposed to be more suspicious or not. 

 

5 hours ago, arc said:

 

It’s just looting. A higher end version of what Michael Keaton’s character did in Homecoming. The line about how the dinosaur skull was strictly for home display strongly implied it was illicitly obtained and thus so were the other items at the auction.

Also, not everything was Avengers related. As noted, there was the triceratops skull. We don't know that anything other than the Ronin stuff was Avengers related, and since no one knew Clint was Ronin, the buyers/auctioneers may not consider it Avengers related. They didn't say Avengers in the description before the sword was sold.

[calliope1975]

Fraction's Hawkeye run is one of my fave books ever, but I'm enjoying the meld of Disaster!Clint and MCU Clint. There're enough nods that I recognize while also making necessary changes. Do I selfishly want Hawk Guy and an entire episode told from Pizza Dog's POV? Yes. Can I also just go read the original comic and not be disappointed? Also yes. 

Hailee's adorable and I'm interested in seeing Kate become a hero. She has the skills and she wants to help but she's not yet there. I also like that she was trying to learn from Clint even if he is uninterested in teaching. 

I'm also on Mom is shady. The conversation with Armand didn't feel like he was threatening her even if that was the dialogue. It seemed like she had more power in that situation then she let on. 

I know many want Clint to die and I'm one who was not a fan of the farm family reveal, but I liked the kids this go around and hope he makes it home for Christmas. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

25 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

Hailee's adorable and I'm interested in seeing Kate become a hero. She has the skills and she wants to help but she's not yet there. I also like that she was trying to learn from Clint even if he is uninterested in teaching.

Looked at strictly from a movie canon standpoint, I can see where Clint would not want to take Kate on in that capacity no matter how intent she is on learning to use her skills correctly. His long-ago decision to spare Natasha's life led to a long-standing friendship, but then the two of them went to Vormir and only he came back. We don't know if he's still in contact with Wanda, who he ended up bonding with after her brother's death, or even where Wanda is right now. On some level, Kate's entrance into his life must be like, "God, not another one..." especially since it's dragged the Ronin stuff back into the light.

[swanpride]

4 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Nothing in show has pointed to her yet.

Oh, a lot of things are pointing to her. 

1. The whole discussion about money in the beginning. Quite convenient for her that her husband then died which somehow solved her money problems, right? 

2. Unlike her husband, she wasn't born rich - remember she said that she knows how it is not to be young anymore AND she knows how it is not be rich, while also saying to him that he has no sense for reality because he grew up in the penthouse at the beginning. Meaning she must be pretty clever to be where she is now. I really don't buy the notion that a women like her would be easily bedazzled by a guy like Jaques.

3. Pretty much every interaction with Kate is an example of manipulation. Kate makes clear that she dislikes charity events, her mother immediately goes to the "you don't care for poor people" argument. Then, when Kate is rightfully angry about her mother not telling her about the engagement, she goes all "can't you be happy for me" as if THAT is the point. She also keeps sidestepping Kate's attempts to talk to her alone. Why does she insist that Jaques has to be around all the time. And, btw, if I were a mother and heard that the apartment of my daughter burned down, I would show way more concern than what she displayed. (Plus, the whole "you planned my life for me" thing sound s true...like I said, lot of Mother Gothel vibes there). 

4. Pretty much everything Armand says...it sounds less like he disapproves of her for some silly reason, and more like he feels that Jaques bite up more than he can chew by trying to get to her money. In addition, in the argument he mentions that he has "friends in high places too" - "too" implies that he is dealing with someone quite powerful there. 

The only reason she isn't on the official lists of suspects on the show is because Kate would never consider her, not because she isn't suspicious. 

[Llywela]

1 hour ago, swanpride said:

Oh, a lot of things are pointing to her. 

1. The whole discussion about money in the beginning. Quite convenient for her that her husband then died which somehow solved her money problems, right? 

2. Unlike her husband, she wasn't born rich - remember she said that she knows how it is not to be young anymore AND she knows how it is not be rich, while also saying to him that he has no sense for reality because he grew up in the penthouse at the beginning. Meaning she must be pretty clever to be where she is now. I really don't buy the notion that a women like her would be easily bedazzled by a guy like Jaques.

3. Pretty much every interaction with Kate is an example of manipulation. Kate makes clear that she dislikes charity events, her mother immediately goes to the "you don't care for poor people" argument. Then, when Kate is rightfully angry about her mother not telling her about the engagement, she goes all "can't you be happy for me" as if THAT is the point. She also keeps sidestepping Kate's attempts to talk to her alone. Why does she insist that Jaques has to be around all the time. And, btw, if I were a mother and heard that the apartment of my daughter burned down, I would show way more concern than what she displayed. (Plus, the whole "you planned my life for me" thing sound s true...like I said, lot of Mother Gothel vibes there). 

4. Pretty much everything Armand says...it sounds less like he disapproves of her for some silly reason, and more like he feels that Jaques bite up more than he can chew by trying to get to her money. In addition, in the argument he mentions that he has "friends in high places too" - "too" implies that he is dealing with someone quite powerful there. 

The only reason she isn't on the official lists of suspects on the show is because Kate would never consider her, not because she isn't suspicious. 

All this, plus - she runs a security company. Like I said up-thread, TV security companies are always evil. (Or is that just Leverage? 😁)