S01.E08: Fan Fiction

[DoctorAtomic]

22 hours ago, MisterGlass said:

My favorite throwaway moment was when Oliver explaining that he directed a mash-up of Tuesdays with Morrie and Weekend at Bernie's.

I can't think of another show where you'd need a real cadaver. 

[MisterGlass]

11 hours ago, emma675 said:

Why didn't he just tie them up in the funeral home basement and wait for Teddy there? It seemed like a stupid risk for basically a car ride where Teddy could threaten them.

I don't know if Theo had a destination in mind when he put them in the van, other than getting them under control and out of the funeral home.  It seemed like they were already in the van before Teddy found out about it.  Teddy may have asked Theo to change course.

One more thing about the super fans - they wear tie dye.

[bybrandy]

Fair enough.  I just don't think, knowing they have a season 2 already and potentially more, that they put themselves in that kind of position with having to compensate for that with Steve Martin's character and progress Steve Martin's character throughout the series.   

[shapeshifter]

8 hours ago, bybrandy said:

Fair enough.  I just don't think, knowing they have a season 2 already and potentially more, that they put themselves in that kind of position with having to compensate for that with Steve Martin's character and progress Steve Martin's character throughout the series.   

The current Canadian police procedural Coroner has the father of the main character having dementia. The first season had him living in assisted living. In seasons 2 and 3 he lives in her house. It’s renewed for a 4th season. They show him conversing with people who are not real, but also he is sometimes the wisest and sanest character.

So, if the character of Charles is going in that direction, I can imagine it. Tony Bennett just recorded his final album after being diagnosed with Alzheimer’s. 
But Charles still seems pretty sharp. He could have a brain tumor. Google fu also says diabetes can cause hallucinations. 🤷🏻‍♀️

[OpieTaylor]

Re Jan - Amy Ryan’s name is included in the opening credits. Nathan Lane’s name isn’t even in the opening credits - And he’s a huge character in the show.

When I first noticed Amy’s name - and at that point she’d hardly been in the show -  I thought she must play a significant part in this. So I don’t think she’s dead.

[judyri]

21 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

Why is no one looking into who Zoe stole the green ring from?

I thought they showed her taking it out of a bag (?) and putting it on in Deli King's apt while Theo watched through the peephole?  Then Dad freaked out in the elevator and made Teddy get it back? Or am I missing a point? Certainly feasible on this show!

[DoctorAtomic]

Yes, that's what happened. Zoe signed to Theo when she exited the elevator and Dimas noticed the ring. I don't know if he thought Theo gave it to her or not, but he told him to get it back. 

[akg]

On 10/5/2021 at 9:45 AM, shapeshifter said:

Jan and her generous baked goods

Did anyone notice what Teddy and Theo were eating while they were listening to the podcast? I haven't rewatched, but my first thought was that they looked a lot like Jan's pizza rolls. 

  

On 10/5/2021 at 11:29 AM, Zaffy said:

Next season I will record the show, avoid forums and relevant sites and patiently wait for 10 weeks or so to binge watch

I'm tempted to do that too. I've watched the episodes before this one in 2 mini-binges so not getting a new show after the credits was very disappointing.

[grandmabegum]

13 minutes ago, akg said:

Did anyone notice what Teddy and Theo were eating while they were listening to the podcast? I haven't rewatched, but my first thought was that they looked a lot like Jan's pizza rolls. 

I am strangely having a conversation about this on reddit and it seems to be croissant sandwiches.

[akg]

8 minutes ago, grandmabegum said:

I am strangely having a conversation about this on reddit and it seems to be croissant sandwiches.

It did seem to be a stretch but I'm glad I wasn't alone in wondering. It would have been an awesome subtle clue though.

[AnimeMania]

1 hour ago, akg said:

1 hour ago, grandmabegum said:

I am strangely having a conversation about this on reddit and it seems to be croissant sandwiches.

It did seem to be a stretch but I'm glad I wasn't alone in wondering. It would have been an awesome subtle clue though.

I couldn't imagine anyone who owns several popular delis would regularly eat the food made by one of their neighbors. For he is the Deli King!

[shapeshifter]

2 minutes ago, AnimeMania said:

I couldn't imagine anyone who owns several popular delis would regularly eat the food made by one of their neighbors. For he is the Deli King!

Or so he says! Mwah ha ha haaa!

[tennisgurl]

18 hours ago, MisterGlass said:

One more thing about the super fans - they wear tie dye.

And their hygiene is questionable

[StevenGuy]

On 10/6/2021 at 2:20 PM, AnimeMania said:

They should know who Zoe stole the ring from, all the Hardy Boys were there when she took it.

Plus, when she pulls it out of the red pouch and is staring at the peephole at Theo (later signing him "I meant it when I said you were hot") Oscar sees her pull it out of the pouch and says to her, "You can't keep that." So yes, I guess that was the Dumas apartment where Theo was hiding and watching her from.

[StevenGuy]

7 hours ago, judyri said:

I thought they showed her taking it out of a bag (?) and putting it on in Deli King's apt while Theo watched through the peephole?  Then Dad freaked out in the elevator and made Teddy get it back? Or am I missing a point? Certainly feasible on this show!

Sorry I wrote my reply before seeing yours. I've been super cautious about responding since one of my previous posts (I have not made many) was deemed a "spoiler" and subsequently erased by a moderator, but I was referring to something in a previous episode and didn't think that constituted a spoiler. So as the saying goes, "once bitten twice shy". Thankfully you also wrote the same thing basically in response to the other commenter.

[StevenGuy]

Also my question is how in the world did Theo overpower both Oliver and Mabel when she happened to perform those ninja moves on Oscar not to long ago? Seems a stretch he could even tie them both up and then randomly drive them away only to have Daddy threaten them. They were already locked in that space with no escape. Hold them until Daddy arrives. That van ride seemed pointless.

[BrindaWalsh]

I think I am late to the game on the theme music, but I finally know what it reminds me of - House of Cards for some reason.  I think it's the repeated, almost tinkling sounds over the lower more melodic tune.

I really thought Oliver was going to suggest that they develop their own merchandise line to keep the podcast running and tell Dimas that they no longer wanted him as a sponsor.  But that was also before I realized that this was the last episode of the season.  When does the next season drop?  

I laughed out loud at so many moments this episode - Brazzos as the safe word (nearly spit out my chicken and brocolli), the superfan recognizing Tie Dye Guy.  The insults of the pizza rolls.  All so brilliant.  

 

[Jessica Yes]

11 minutes ago, BrindaWalsh said:

I think I am late to the game on the theme music, but I finally know what it reminds me of - House of Cards for some reason.  I think it's the repeated, almost tinkling sounds over the lower more melodic tune.

I really thought Oliver was going to suggest that they develop their own merchandise line to keep the podcast running and tell Dimas that they no longer wanted him as a sponsor.  But that was also before I realized that this was the last episode of the season.  When does the next season drop?  

I laughed out loud at so many moments this episode - Brazzos as the safe word (nearly spit out my chicken and brocolli), the superfan recognizing Tie Dye Guy.  The insults of the pizza rolls.  All so brilliant.  

 

There are two more episodes to this season.

[dovegrey]

In this episode, the Dimas surveillance footage from the night of Tim’s murder was dated January 16, with the autopsy report dated January 17. The date on Teddy’s phone right before he and Theo were arrested showed it was February 5. I’m surprised. We’re still at least a month, month and a half out from episode one’s opening scene that was two months after Tim’s murder. That's a lot of ground to cover in two more episodes!

Edited October 8, 2021 by dovegrey

[akg]

49 minutes ago, BrindaWalsh said:

I really thought Oliver was going to suggest that they develop their own merchandise line

I'm pretty sure Oliver would have started printing shirts immediately if their lives hadn't been in danger. Depending on how quickly things move in the next couple of episodes, I can see him going back to that plan.

 

[BrindaWalsh]

43 minutes ago, Jessica Yes said:

There are two more episodes to this season.

Oh yay!  I thought this was a finale and setup for next season and the mystery would continue.

[Haleth]

I love the show but find it hard to believe the detective would believe any theory coming from these amateur sleuths.  She arrested the Dimases without doing any investigation.  (Or was their apartment raided off camera?)  There are a host of charges that can be made from the stolen jewelry, but nothing ties them to either murder.

The fans were fun.

[SunnyBeBe]

On 10/7/2021 at 5:54 PM, tennisgurl said:

And their hygiene is questionable

😝 Loved Oliver’s comments on the fans….”Do I wish they were a tad more up on their hygiene?”   Short kills me! 

It’s nice to see Ali Stroker as the female fan.  I recall her from The Glee Project, then Glee.  I think after that she appeared on Broadway.  

Edited October 9, 2021 by SunnyBeBe

[Roxie]

33 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

It’s nice to see Ali Stroker as the female fan.  I recall her from The Glee Project, then Glee.  I think after that she appeared on Broadway.  

She won a Tony for Featured Actress in a Musical for the most recent revival of "Oklahoma."

[Soobs]

On 10/5/2021 at 8:09 AM, Abra said:

 

As an aside from the mystery, the "Nice, Hot Vegetables" picture in Charles's kitchen cracks me up. I just do not understand Real Art sometimes.

That was a painting by artist Ed Ruscha. Steve Martin is a big contemporary art collector. It was a nice touch.  

[cardigirl]

1 hour ago, Soobs said:

That was a painting by artist Ed Ruscha. Steve Martin is a big contemporary art collector. It was a nice touch.  

I think it's also from 1976 so not super recent.

[Abra]

1 hour ago, Soobs said:

That was a painting by artist Ed Ruscha. Steve Martin is a big contemporary art collector.

Oh I know, I just don't care for it as Art. At least it was amusing?

[Eureka]

19 hours ago, Roxie said:

She won a Tony for Featured Actress in a Musical for the most recent revival of "Oklahoma."

I thought that was her but wasn’t sure, and then I got distracted and wasn’t paying attention to the credits.

[Ilovepie]

On 10/5/2021 at 8:22 PM, MisterGlass said:

My favorite throwaway moment was when Oliver explaining that he directed a mash-up of Tuesdays with Morrie and Weekend at Bernie's.

Hilarious! My favorite was the continuation of the Gut Milk being shown.....

I also liked when one of the superfans said he had to leave because "I have to go to work, you know?" and Oliver offhandedly says "I don't believe that at all" or something like that......It really doesn't sound funny here but Martin Short's delivery made me laugh.

[Abra]

It just hit me on my rewatch of this episode that the four superfans (the Arconiacs) are the four listeners mentioned from the very first podcast episode.

Also, I'm surprised that the Detective let Mabel know that she's the one who sent her Tim's phone. I guess the writers didn't want to add time to the story by having the team try to figure it out.

Does Oscar wear anything else besides that tie-dye hoodie?

[SlovakPrincess]

Oliver had the best lines this episode.  "Is that a good 'shit fuck fuck'?"   🤣    

Poor Jan -- I know Oliver and Mabel were just extremely irritable and on edge from their very awful night and Teddy's threats, but they didn't have to be that rude to Jan.  They going to feel terrible now when they find out what happened to her!  And poor Charles - he was finally happy.

 

[SlovakPrincess]

On 10/5/2021 at 9:45 AM, shapeshifter said:

If Oscar did kill Tim, and if he is convicted, and if Oscar is also fully pardoned for Zoe's murder, does "time served" count? I mean, if Oscar is given 10 years for the murder of Tim Kono, but exonerated for Zoe's murder, do the 10 years he served for Zoe's murder count for Tim's?

No, Tim's murder would be a completely different crime from Zoe's murder (or manslaughter, or whatever lesser crime Oscar pleaded down to to get a shorter sentence).   If Oscar killed Tim, he would not get "credit" for the time he served for Zoe's death (even though he was unjustly accused).  

[shapeshifter]

18 minutes ago, SlovakPrincess said:

No, Tim's murder would be a completely different crime from Zoe's murder (or manslaughter, or whatever lesser crime Oscar pleaded down to to get a shorter sentence).   If Oscar killed Tim, he would not get "credit" for the time he served for Zoe's death (even though he was unjustly accused).  

I'm sure on at least one L&O episode there was a similar but different situation (I think the real, second murder was of a terrible, murderous person) and the judge set aside the jury's sentencing and gave "time served" (during the new arrest and trial), or maybe it was that the jury chose that. 

[SlovakPrincess]

49 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

I'm sure on at least one L&O episode there was a similar but different situation (I think the real, second murder was of a terrible, murderous person) and the judge set aside the jury's sentencing and gave "time served" (during the new arrest and trial), or maybe it was that the jury chose that. 

"Time served" is usually for the pre-trial detention period -- so if Oscar sat in jail for a year awaiting trial/resolution of his case for Zoe's killing, he might've gotten a year taken off his sentence for Zoe's killing as time served.  

I suppose here a lawyer could argue for leniency for Oscar, pointing out the ten years he lost, if he actually got convicted of killing Tim at some point.  That might be something considered in his sentencing ... but probably quite unlikely.   The two crimes are too attenuated - allegedly pushing Zoe to her death (which Oscar ultimately decided to plead guilty to) and then, ten years later, an actual revenge killing of Tim.  

Edited October 13, 2021 by SlovakPrincess

[aradia22]

I have mixed feelings about the superfans. I guess at some point if you're famous, you have to write about being famous but it did feel a little too much of meta commentary. 

It was frustrating to watch them ignore Jan but I guess they needed to prolong the mystery.

I don't know if Teddy is a great criminal or a terrible criminal. He seems to really rely on people being scared of him and maybe the OMITB squad is too reckless for that tactic. 

I appreciated seeing Winnie chilling with Will. 

[aradia22]

Quote

Tim was poisoned and already dead at the time he was shot. Whoever shot him didn't know this meaning it was done hastily. An in-and-out job when the fire alarm went off. There are two killers out there; the second one who used a gun we can assume was able-bodied and athletic(um, not an older tenant of the Arconia). From Tim Kono's head wounds in episode 2 it looks like the bullet hit him from the black of the head, the second killer likely didn't even see Tim's face, otherwise they would have figured out he was dead.

The theory about Oscar having killed Tim was depressing me because I don't like the thought of him going back to jail after serving 10 years for a crime he didn't commit. But I do like this "two killers" theory because it's unlikely that they would prosecute someone for shooting a dead body (assuming this second person wasn't part of faking the suicide). At this moment, I do think it's more likely that the poison and gun shot are part of the same plot and not two unrelated acts. 

Quote

I hope that Jan is alright and that she isn't actually the killer. After its taken him so long to open up to anyone again, Charles would be crushed either way. There are so many little details that have been thrown out, the murder in the park, the dead cat, the lady who has dirt on everyone, Jan getting Tim's mail, its always tough separating the random details, the red herrings, and the actual clues.

I agree about wanting Jan to be okay for Charles' sake. And while it is both fun and frustrating, that is the brilliance behind having these characters bumbling through the mystery rather than a master detective. They don't catch all the relevant clues and their emotions drive them into chasing false leads and trying to force a narrative to fit rather than letting the evidence guide them. The Sting episode actual feels like a comedic version of what happened with the Dimas' this episode. 

[Zonk]

On 10/5/2021 at 10:47 PM, tennisgurl said:

I think Jan is onto something about the poisoned cat, it seems like too much of coincidence that Tim and the cat that was in his apartment were both poisoned. 

She did walk through his blood and would have licked it off her paws. Might be enough to kill her depending on the poison and the amount in his blood.

 

So the musician girlfriend is the murderer, right? She is really the only one left who it could be, unless they are coming way out of left field. Faking getting attacked. Classic move.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Zonk

[Mrs. Landingham]

On 10/6/2021 at 11:27 AM, sistermagpie said:

 

I have to say, the one thing I have trouble with is the whole story with Zoe's death. I guess the point is that Teddy created a huge problem and ruined someone's life for absolutely no reason, but it's still a bit hard to believe that Tim didn't tell the truth. Presumably he understood that Teddy's goal was protecting Theo and not framing Oscar, and since Tim and Theo were both super rich kids who could both truthfully say that nobody pushed Zoe off the roof there was no reason for anybody to lie. Plus, the time of Zoe's death would have been pretty easy to note (presumably there was a splat) and Oscar would have returned to the party quite a while before that.

 

 

Agreed. This bothers me, too. I understand the show needed the framing-of-Oscar storyline to show the evilness of Teddy but it seemed a bit strange when really, both Theo and Tim could have honestly said *nobody* actually pushed Zoe off the roof.

[dovegrey]

18 minutes ago, Mrs. Landingham said:

Agreed. This bothers me, too. I understand the show needed the framing-of-Oscar storyline to show the evilness of Teddy but it seemed a bit strange when really, both Theo and Tim could have honestly said *nobody* actually pushed Zoe off the roof.

From what I remember, Theo didn't tell Teddy what really happened; Teddy assumed based on context clues that Theo killed Zoey, and then the police arrived. Teddy immediately went nuclear and threatened Tim into silence. Instead of intervening right then with the truth, Theo let his dad continue threatening Tim and signed "Mabel," which I read as Theo either getting payback against the kids for never including him all those years, pre-emptively protecting himself against whatever he feared Tim would say, and/or possibly even believing that he was responsible for Zoe's death. With Teddy threatening Tim, maybe Tim even thought that Theo actually had pushed Zoe, despite what he might have seen (eyewitness testimony can be questionable because of things like this).

I don't see room for a moment when they could have discussed it and decided on honesty. Heck, in the pressure cooker of Teddy going nuclear, the police swarming the scene, Tim (and Mabel) being threatened, and Theo being in shock, maybe neither Theo nor Tim really even knew what happened; it can take a while to process that kind of experience, then add the stress, and then add that they were only about 16-18 years old (IIRC, Mabel said she was 27 during season 1 and Zoe had died 10 years earlier). I buy it.

However, IMO, the show didn't do a good job with the teenager scenes. They looked and usually acted like young 20-somethings, unless they were making up pretend mysteries to solve, and then they were 13-year-olds acting like 8-year-olds. :)

[paramitch]

I thought this episode had a lot of fun moments, but it also (for me) brought out the show's weak spot -- its occasional slight disdain for regular people (real people who cannot afford life in this building, for instance, and I have lived in NYC myself in Queens—a 15 minute trip into the heart of Manhattan, but also far, far away). So I can't help but feel it comes from its production and however many celebrities were involved.

There is a level of privilege to this show that gets me -- a "what are the poor people doing?" element that does feel slightly jarring from time to time. The characters are all so privileged, and are so quick to be cruel to other people, and it feels unnecessary to the mystery to me. For instance, the guy whose cat died is treated (and the cat's death) as a source of comedy. It's so funny this guy's cat died, and his grief is just fodder for comedy. They're shockingly cruel about it (although, granted, the portrait was a lot -- but then again, does anyone actually buy that he would freeze his cat without putting it in a bag?). But of course if it's Oliver's dog, oh no, that emotion is acceptable, it's his dog, etc. Even though he is every bit as frantic as the cat guy and every bit as parental about it.

Etc.

And I don't mean to be unfair, because do not get me started on how much I love Steve Martin and his body of work, Bright Star, etc. (or to a lesser degree, Short, whose autobiography is genuinely smart and surprisingly moving). But I do think there's an element here of slight disdain and pity that crosses a line occasionally that hits me the wrong way. For instance, I do not for a moment buy that Mabel was ever actually interested in Oscar, and I don't now. They have zero to talk about. They have zero chemistry. I just don't see it at all.

So I liked this, but I disliked the blatant contempt here for the fans. Like, oh, of course they smell weird or are misfits, or whatever, but the fact is, I wish they'd just been revealed to have been regular people with lives, who were enthusiastic JUST LIKE THEY WERE. The fans are actually kindred spirits! Instead they are treated here with amused benevolence like visiting aliens the group is slightly kind and accommodating to -- oh look, the common people were useful! And that really bothered me. When it's a missed opportunity -- the fans ARE THEM. The fans are exactly who Mabel, Oliver, and Charles were... before they started their own investigation. So while we got a little of this unearned superiority taken down in the previous ep (when the plant guys are podcast celebs), for me it's still a bit too little and irksome.

I love the show, but I thought this was worth saying. 

 

Edited January 14, 2022 by paramitch
missing word

[LeGrandElephant]

Shouldn’t it have been obvious from the amount of bleeding or lack thereof whether or not Tim was already dead when shot? I thought they’d say he was incapacitated by drugs, but already dead is a whole other thing. 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 10/5/2021 at 11:29 AM, Zaffy said:

This show needs longer episodes.
Next season I will record the show, avoid forums and relevant sites and patiently wait for 10 weeks or so to binge watch.
 

Why would you need to record them? They're streaming.

On 10/5/2021 at 9:45 AM, shapeshifter said:

If Oscar did kill Tim, and if he is convicted, and if Oscar is also fully pardoned for Zoe's murder, does "time served" count? I mean, if Oscar is given 10 years for the murder of Tim Kono, but exonerated for Zoe's murder, do the 10 years he served for Zoe's murder count for Tim's?

No, no credit for future murders.

Otherwise, if someone were unjustly imprisoned for 25 years and was exonerated, he could then murder the prosecutor, admit to it, and ask for credit for time served.