S01.E05: Truth

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

John Walker faces consequences for his actions, and Sam and Bucky return to the U.S. 

Dropping Friday, April 16, 2021.

[paigow]

Post Credit Scene!!!!!!

Batroc rises... Sharon is using the SHIELD ops manual

[TiffanyNichelle]

So of all the comic book cameos I thought we'd get I never thought we'd get the Contessa. Talk about random but fun. 

So Sharon is using Batroc to do her dirty work (in the first episode & this one) just like Nick Fury. I really want to know what her ultimate goal is. 

God, that conversation between Isaiah and Sam was heartbreaking. He was put in jail for doing the same thing Steve did, saving POWs and then experimented on. Just awful. And to lose his wife and to have to fake his death just to get out of it. Everything he said about why Sam shouldn't take the shield was so valid but I liked that Sam decided to take it up anyway. Plus we got an awesome training montage.

Bucky flirting with Sarah was a treat. I could have done with more of that! 

We really are going to need a second season of this. There's no way I'm going to be satisfied with next week being our ending. Torres is going to fix those wings and fly around in them. Eli has to become Patriot. The Contessa has to...contest? 

Eta, I forgot to say how much I loved Sam and Bucky's talk while they played catch with the shield. I loved that Bucky apologized for not understanding what Sam was going through over the shield. All the quiet conversations where the best parts of the episode. 

Edited April 16, 2021 by TiffanyNichelle

[paigow]

If that was the hyped cameo... underwhelming

Sam gets his Pulp Fiction briefcase... and he is the fastest runner in town... unless Bucky joins in

[vb68]

Absolutely brutal fight between the boys and Walker. A little surprised all three could walk away from that one with no lasting damage and each one in one piece. Just saying. Brutal.

Made sense the rest the episode was slower and basically good character beats. They have done a good job in showing Sam's journey in particular  and how his thinking on the Shield, his place in context with The Shield and in the world in general has evolved.  

Bucky has a family now whether he knows it or not. I think he just might. I was very happy to see Sam and Bucky relax with each other some and admit without saying it so much directly that they always have each other. To keep some tension, I wouldn't hate it if Bucky and Sarah did become a thing. I saw a spark. Sam would get use to it it. Eventually.

The big cameo was ok. The person didn't have much to do. And I have no understanding of who that character is or the context.

I hope Carl Lumbly gets nominated for a guest acting Emmy. It would be well deserved. 

Edited April 16, 2021 by vb68

[paigow]

Karli is one of the highest profile fugitives in the world... how did she get to New York without Somebody that is not sympathetic raising an alarm. And if there is a huge trail of bodies / MIA cops in Latvia, the GRC is super incompetent.  

[Gin and Tonic]

I’m such a soft touch for domestic stuff. I’d watch an entire season of this show that consists of Sam and Bucky fixing boats while occasionally beating up bad guys. Add in Bucky flirting with Sarah and being cute with kids and Sam having emotional catharsis and community building, and I’d watch 100 seasons. 

[johntfs]

38 minutes ago, paigow said:

Karli is one of the highest profile fugitives in the world... how did she get to New York without Somebody that is not sympathetic raising an alarm. And if there is a huge trail of bodies / MIA cops in Latvia, the GRC is super incompetent.  

Private boats.  Private planes.  She does have a huge sympathetic network.  Look at Osama bin Laden.  After 9/11 it took the US not quite ten full years to find him and end him.  Osama bin Laden was a 6' 5" Arab dude with a huge beard and kidney disease.  The idea that Karli and her group could get into New York is far from a deal-breaker for me.

[vb68]

I thought it was very powerful, both for himself and Bucky, to hear Sam say "I know it may come as a surprise, but it really doesn't matter what Steve thought".

Both of them need to give up the ghost.

[Schweedie]

49 minutes ago, Gin and Tonic said:

I’m such a soft touch for domestic stuff. I’d watch an entire season of this show that consists of Sam and Bucky fixing boats while occasionally beating up bad guys. Add in Bucky flirting with Sarah and being cute with kids and Sam having emotional catharsis and community building, and I’d watch 100 seasons. 

Bahaha, same.

What an episode. I actually really felt for Walker right at the beginning, before he broke fully bad on Sam and Bucky - he really, really did want to be the right person to be Captain America and being forced to confront the truth that he isn't was the last straw.

The scene between Sam and Isaiah... Whew. The fact that Isaiah was sent to prison for doing literally the exact same thing Steve did and was celebrated for was a gut punch. But I really liked the brief exchange between Sam and his sister about that later, showing that Sam didn't take his judgement to heart - Isaiah feeling the way he does about the idea of a black man being/wanting to be Captain America is completely justified and understandable given what he went through, but it also doesn't mean that he's objectively *right*. The way Sam's nephew touched the shield and smiled up at Sam holding it made my whole heart glow.

Wakandan made Cap suit! Oh man, I cannot wait. And speaking of Wakanda, really glad Bucky lead the Dora Milaje to Zemo, putting things right there even if Ayo told him he might not want to visit there for a while. Her calling him White Wolf and agreeing to have Sam's new suit made tells me they're okay.

[revbfc]

If I were Falcon, and I wasn’t 100% with that shield yet, I’d be practicing FAAAAAR away from my (or anyone’s) house.

[Schweedie]

10 minutes ago, vb68 said:

I thought it was very powerful, both for himself and Bucky, to hear Sam say "I know it may come as a surprise, but it really doesn't matter what Steve thought".

Both of them need to give up the ghost.

Yes, this. Especially given that Sam then DID decide take up the shield, not because Steve thought he should or because Bucky thought he should, but because he himself felt it was right.

[Lebanna]

This was the episode I’d really been waiting for, where we finally circle back to the beginning of the show and all those things that seemed so important at first - because they were more important to the characters than all the international covert hijinks.

It’s too easy to feel bad for BadCap, he’s clearly quite mentally ill and he’s quite right - they take wonderful people, break them and then ex-military personnel are left with nothing so often. Just look at how many veterans end up in prison or otherwise institutionalised. It’s a disaster that no one likes to talk about. But that doesn’t mean he doesn’t really need to be stopped. 

The echos of that with Isaiah, who escaped and broke his men out and brought them home, just as Steve did for Bucky and the others. But Steve was given a medal for it (even if he didn’t bother to collect it) and Isaiah was imprisoned, tortured and had his whole life ruined forever. How awful, to see the golden boy praised and idolised for doing exactly what you did. Even Sam can’t quite imagine what life was like for a Black man at that time, he believes they can fix it. He is still full of hope.

When Isaiah said they were lied to about the serum... of course - The Tuskegee Experiment... That’s still a thought in the minds of many Black people around the world when thinking about vaccines and other medical interventions. How can you be sure that they are telling you the truth, this time? When they have lied so often. In this fictional universe it was always easy to see that what had been done to Bucky was horrific, to take an ordinary person and without their consent to cut them up, to torture them, to steal their whole life, to break their minds, to experiment on them, to force them to do horrific things. What kind of country does that? If you want to know, just look out the window.

It was wonderful to see Sam back home, taking care of business. He’s such a hometown boy, it’s lovely. Bucky is really getting his groove back as well. So many flashes of who he used to be, especially flirting with Sarah (who was totally into it, they were all kinds of adorable) and watching Sam’s nephews playing, he looked almost peaceful. It was hilarious that he went straight for Sarah, a strong woman and the most important woman in Sam’s life - he went right for Peggy as well, as soon as he saw that Steve thought she was great. It’s a bit of a personality tic. He wants the women his friends think are amazing, especially when said friends want him to back right off. 

That town must feel almost homey to Bucky as well, despite his being a city mouse. It’s been left behind by time a little bit. The slow motion scene of Bucky on the dock, where life is slower, brighter, mellow. And Sam has so many ties to everyone there, he is a real part of their lives. He’s someone to be truly proud of. Sam venerates history, his family, his people, he appreciates it all but he doesn’t want to sugarcoat it.

Bucky finally recognised that his anger with Sam came in no small way from feeling that Sam was abandoning their mission. He lost his family for a little bit, but he’s got it back now. Recognising that Steve and he had a conversation where they agreed that the shield and Bucky would both go with Sam after Steve left, but that Steve should have thought more before he just handed over the shield with no real explanation except that Sam was a good man too... never understanding the position he was putting Sam in. Being a good man is no use if the world is blind to who you are. What do people see, when they see Black men?

Loved watching Sam messing up so often with the shield. It was like a mini-blooper reel. And the acrobatics were great. He really doesn’t need the serum to be awesome. He’s going to show the world that they won’t get to do to his nephews what was done to Isaiah, ever again.

Wakanda are giving Sam back his wings, right? He’s going to be Captain America flying on African wings. And I am going to cry.

Edited April 16, 2021 by Lebanna

[Vanderboom]

1 hour ago, Gin and Tonic said:

I’m such a soft touch for domestic stuff. I’d watch an entire season of this show that consists of Sam and Bucky fixing boats while occasionally beating up bad guys. Add in Bucky flirting with Sarah and being cute with kids and Sam having emotional catharsis and community building, and I’d watch 100 seasons. 

I thought the same thing. This episode was quieter but it did a great job of exploring each main character's motivation. I say that as someone who dislikes Zemo and laughed out loud when Sam snarked on his head tilt. Glad Wakanda got their hands on him, but sad Bucky's no longer considered a friend.

Isaiah Bradley's experience is so . . . believable, sadly. Many governments have dirty bloody hands. The best part of his dynamic with Sam is that they're both completely justified in their decisions. This show should get all the male acting awards.

Oh, and I'm so here for Sarah and Bucky flirting, whether it grows into a relationship or if it's just a way to annoy Sam. And yes, I think Sam now has Wakanda wings.

Edited April 16, 2021 by Vanderboom

[paigow]

Zemo was waiting to be arrested... that means his butler is already arranging the prison break...

[Schweedie]

53 minutes ago, Lebanna said:

That town must feel almost homey to Bucky as well, despite his being a city mouse. It’s been left behind by time a little bit. The slow motion scene of Bucky on the dock, where life is slower, brighter, mellow.

A shot I really, really liked was the closeup of Bucky sanding (? I know nothing about woodworking) boards using his metal arm. It was a nice small touch to see him getting to use that arm for something so mundane. This arm doesn't have the history that his Winter Soldier arm did; he doesn't have to look at it and see people he killed with it. This arm he can now look at and see having helped to fix up a boat.

Edited April 16, 2021 by Schweedie

[Spartan Girl]

I think Walker just got recruited by Power Broker. And I’m pretty sure it isn’t Sharon, but her sending Bartoc to the Flag Smashers...definitely out of Fury’s playbook. He’d be proud.

Glad Bucky helped the Wakandans get Zemo. Hope he’s cool with Ayo now.

Poor, poor Isaiah. There are no words.

Loved the scenes with Sam, Bucky and the community fixing the boat. And Sarah and Bucky flirting, ha!

1 hour ago, vb68 said:

I thought it was very powerful, both for himself and Bucky, to hear Sam say "I know it may come as a surprise, but it really doesn't matter what Steve thought".

Both of them need to give up the ghost.

Yes, this. And I think they’ve confirmed that Steve died of old age. So that puts it to rest.

The training sequence at the end...I think I’m gonna cry. Cannot WAIT to see the new outfit!

How can there be one episode left?! We need another season!

Edited April 16, 2021 by Spartan Girl

[cambridgeguy]

So did Sam and Bucky not realize Walker took the serum or did they just not bother to tell anyone?  Seems like letting an unstable super soldier with a grudge just do his own thing would be a bad idea, and that's even without knowing shady Elaine Benes is recruiting.

[paigow]

Walker got his medals based on lies... his final lie to the Hoskins family was slightly less egregious but he clearly did not deserve to be worshipped by Lemar...

On 4/16/2021 at 5:18 AM, Lebanna said:

That town must feel almost homey to Bucky as well, despite his being a city mouse.

Not!Bayou Le Batre may be OK, but is there a vintage record store??

[swanpride]

While I really loved the boat fixing (especially the notion that the community did it basically paying back for what was done for them in the past), and Sam and Bucky finally having their talk (though Sam, doing the "don't flirt with my sister" posturing BS was NOT cool, Sarah can speak for herself), I honestly felt that there was something missing. There wasn't really a proper conclusion to the episode. It didn't need to be anything big. Bucky finally telling the old man about his son would have worked, before transitioning to the next stage. I mean, I bet that will come next episode, but it somehow fells like the moment should have been in this one.

I guess Zemo wanted Bucky to kill him? I mean...really? Why should Bucky do that? Bucky doesn't want to be a killer, period.

Having Walker all beat up in court was some BS. His healing factor should have taken care of the scratches long ago. That was only a ploy to make the audience feel for him. Well, I don't. Yeah, the government ruins good people by turning them into their idea of a soldier, but Walker is really not the best example for this. Nobody forced him to take the Supersoldier serum. And I am sure that he could have declined the "promotion" to Captain America. I am more bothered that he wasn't put on trial in Latvia for murder. That is where the focus should have been, by yet another american soldier getting scott free for something other people would spend their life in prison for.

Also, the refugee discussion was pretty vague, especially since it makes little sense. It makes more sense for our world than for the MCU. Which, I guess, was the point, but if they want to make a point about immigration policies, they should be clearer about it.

 

 

[tv echo]

Live thoughts while watching...

It still surprises me that Bucky isn't winning these fights easily, even against other super soldiers, given his decades of experience and training. It should not have taken both Sam and Bucky to defeat Walker. I actually thought this opening fight scene was a hallucination in Walker's mind, until it turned out to be real.

Wow, Wyatt Russell looked so much like his father, Kurt, in that military tribunal scene, when he was wearing his military uniform and shouting at the panel of officers. Yeah, he's lost it. He still doesn't feel any remorse for butchering that unarmed Flag-Smasher. Does the government know that Walker took the super serum?

So Julia Louis-Dreyfus is the big surprise cameo? She's playing Contessa Valentina Allegra de Fontaine, which apparently has significance in Marvel comics. (See MCU thread.) To be honest, however, I was disappointed (no offense to her fans). I know she's won a ton of Emmys, but she's always been 'meh' to me.

Zemo is still trying to manipulate Bucky into being his personal assassin. Bucky really psyched out Zemo in fake-shooting him. Yay, Bucky, for turning Zemo over to the Dora Milaje. So Zemo is going to be imprisoned in the Raft, which means he could always escape in the future. So sad that Bucky's been exiled from Eden Wakanda for the time being. 

Isaiah Bradley's back! Nice scene with Sam. Carl Lumbly is giving a great acting performance. What a sad story. So the world thinks Isaiah is dead. 

Poor Sam. But I think he has to make his own decision and not be overly influenced by other people's opinions.

It takes a village. Ah, Bucky showed up to help Sam and he's got a gift for Sam from Wakanda! (I bet it's a new Falcon suit.) Bucky's showing some of his old charm to Sarah. He's acting more and more like pre-serum Bucky and less like the Winter Soldier. I can't get over how much he is smiling. He's healing.

Whoa. Walker lied to Lemar's parents about who killed their son. He is truly delusional. Again, Wyatt Russell looks so much like his father when he's not wearing his mask.

What are you up to, Sharon? Does she really want both Sam and Bucky killed?

Squee - the shield training scene with Sam and Bucky! Finally, confirmation that Steve told Bucky in advance that he was planning to give the shield to Sam. And an apology. Touching explanation for Bucky's attachment to the Captain America shield (his only remaining "family" - sob). Bucky doesn't lie to Sam. Sam gives Bucky "tough love" advice. They are finally becoming friends. 

This heart-to-heart conversation between Bucky and Sam is pivotal to this series, I think. (See Quotes thread.)

Oh, after that talk, Bucky's definitely going to confess to his neighbor friend about killing his son in the final episode.

The inevitable hero-in-training sequence. Sam with the shield!

So Karli's teaming up with Georges Batroc (played by Georges St-Pierre). I now have less sympathy for Karli than for Walker. 

Uh oh, the GRC Council's doomed.

Yep, I'm betting Sam's getting a Falcon-style Captain America suit.

Mid-credits scene! Shades of Tony Stark making the Iron Man suit, but with a twist. So is Walker going to be like Dark Captain America? 

Edited April 16, 2021 by tv echo

[Spartan Girl]

3 minutes ago, tv echo said:

What are you up to, Sharon? Does she really want both Sam and Bucky killed?

No. No, there is definitely something more going on here. I’d like to think that the writers are at least better than the ones from Game of Thrones. 

Not that I’m making excuses for Walker because he’s batshit crazy at this point, but he might have lied to Lemar’s parents about who killed Lemar out of guilt that he hadn’t gotten Karli and feeling like he owed them some closure to spare them the pain of knowing the real murderer was still on the loose. And the government might be using that story to cushion the PR fallout of Walker’s actions, blaming Lemar’s death on the guy he beat to death.

[swanpride]

Walker might have outright lied to everyone about who killed Lemar. After all, Sam and Bucky aren't around to contradict him.

 

[Hana Chan]

Once again, Marvel totally knocked it out of the park with this episode. This whole series has been amazing, but this episode in particular really cemented just how good and impactful a comic book show can be. This is not about powers so much, but about people., Flawed, damaged people, all of which just trying to do their best and ending up with diametrically different results. And while I think that WandaVision ended up being more about expanding the MCU universe at the end, this series remains focused on the characters, their histories and their efforts to move forward in a very complicated world. It paints a very intriguing  concept about legacies and how best to honor them. That it's about taking the legacies that you are left at and building on them, trying to do better while honoring the past. Not merely repeating what made those legacies great to begin with.

For Sam, it means accepting a mantle that is, to say the least, exceptionally complicated. It's fully understanding and accepting a very dark history where people who looked like him were not merely treated as less, but horrifically abused by the powers that he will not attempt to represent. The government wanted to repeat what they had with Steve and ended up with a disaster. The conversation with Isaiah, letting him fully understand just what the man had endured and lost broke my heart because the question was being asked outright - How could Sam possibly try to represent a country that would experiment on innocent men, throw them uncaringly into battle and then in prison for doing nothing more than what Steve had done at Azzano.

Sam will not be a Captain America like Steve, and that's what makes him perfect for the mantle. He's not white, so he can represent many in the country who, rightfully, feel that they have been overlooked, disregarded and abused by the country. He isn't a super soldier, but has abilities that are aspirational to the average person. For him, accepting the legacy that Steve left him about representing the country as it is now. A nation that accomplished a great deal but has an exceedingly complicated history and a lot to atone for. To represent a nation that is multiracial and multicultural. But he'll also honor Steve's legacy by doing what is right, and not what the government wants from him. He can understand Isaiah's more than justifiable bitterness while not allowing it to dictate whether he should accept the role that he was offered. Seeing Sam's nephews looking at the shield with wonder really cements just how important having a black Captain America would mean for so many.

Bucky is shouldering a very dark legacy, built by decades of horror that he was forced to endure and forced to inflict. He faces a world where even those who care about him saw him as a killer who has to atone for actions that he wasn't responsible for. The therapy that he was enduring wasn't helping to heal him because it wasn't about trying to help him get past the trauma he'd suffered for so long. Again, it was looking at Bucky as a barely reformed killer and not a good man forced to endure. Even the Wakandans, who clearly sympathized with him had the failsafe put in his arm in case he reverted back. Sam was the first one who got Bucky to see that his therapeutic work needed to be about healing, and not just trying to undo the damage that he'd been forced to. Bucky acknowledging his nightmares, and how damaged he was, 

Bucky facing Zemo (who I still adore... don't judge me!) and refusing to kill him shows that Bucky is far more than just a killer. Seeing him sleeping on Sam's couch and smiling at being woken up by Sam's nephews - enjoying the simple pleasure of being with a family for the first time since he left his parents home - shows the softer side of Bucky that he never allowed to come out. He had so many opportunities to revert to what everyone thought he was and proved that he was so much more. He gave Zemo over to the Dora Milaje rather than just killing him. He didn't kill Walker. He refused to rise to Zemo's bait about killing Karli being the only option. We're finally starting to see the real Bucky Barnes coming out, one that will carry a dark burden but who still can face the future with hope.

Walker is a mess and totally deserved the curb stomping that he received. He also had the challenge of taking on a powerful legacy, but unlike Sam and Bucky, he crumbled beneath it because he focused on just trying to duplicate the Steve Rogers formula rather than trying to see how he could improve upon the mantle he was being given. That lead to repeated moments of feeling that he just didn't measure up. Instead of trying to see how he could take up that mantle and make it his own, he just kept trying to be Steve Rogers 2.0. It's not a surprise that it ended up being a total train wreak.

There were so many amazing moments in this episode that I'll want to touch on later, but this posting has gone on long enough! Sorry for the rambling. 

Edited April 16, 2021 by Hana Chan

[swanpride]

Bucky has always been this way. His main character trait has always been "mother hen". He spend his whole life (the part, he had control over) taking care of the needs of others (mainly Steve's). The only time in which he focussed on his own needs was pretty much the year in Wakanda.

[paigow]

39 minutes ago, tv echo said:

Mid-credits scene! Shades of Tony Stark making the Iron Man suit, but with a twist. So is Walker going to be like Dark Captain America? 

He is going to make the Tony Stark sacrifice... 

[Lebanna]

27 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

Bucky is shouldering a very dark legacy, built by decades of horror that he was forced to endure and forced to inflict. He faces a world where even those who care about him saw him as a killer who has to atone for actions that he wasn't responsible for. The therapy that he was enduring wasn't helping to heal him because it wasn't about trying to help him get past the trauma he'd suffered for so long. Again, it was looking at Bucky as a barely reformed killer and not a good man forced to endure. Even the Wakandans, who clearly sympathized with him had the failsafe put in his arm in case he reverted back. Sam was the first one who got Bucky to see that his therapeutic work needed to be about healing, and not just trying to undo the damage that he'd been forced to. Bucky acknowledging his nightmares, and how damaged he was

This! This post is so good. I love how this episode really showed that Sam is a much better therapist specifically for someone like Bucky (and probably would have been to Walker too, if he ever got the chance) than the ‘official’ therapist we have seen. She was really trying, playing by the book and doing all the correct things, but it didn’t work. I mean, we were all watching her, making the guys sit with their legs intertwined thinking, ‘yeah, you’re really not getting why and how this relationship could work...’.

It’s so true that she never saw Bucky as much more than a monster she had to try to reform. She didn’t get that as a person given choices, he never was a monster. He doesn’t have to learn any of those lessons because his actions are already tearing him up. As Sam says, now he just has to be useful to those he damaged. I love that Sam had a real job that he was talented at, helping his community when he came out of the military. And I love that now we see how he became the man who wants to help.

Quote

Walker is a mess and totally deserved the curb stomping that he received. He also had the challenge of taking on a powerful legacy, but unlike Sam and Bucky, he crumbled beneath it because he focused on just trying to duplicate the Steve Rogers formula rather than trying to see how he could improve upon the mantle he was being given. That lead to repeated moments of feeling that he just didn't measure up. Instead of trying to see how he could take up that mantle and make it his own, he just kept trying to be Steve Rogers 2.0. It's not a surprise that it ended up being a total train wreak.

Sam knows exactly who Sam is, even when he doesn’t know who Captain America should be. He’s never going to be anyone except Sam Wilson. That’s the tragedy of John Walker, that somewhere along the line, he never learned that just being John was good enough.

Edited April 16, 2021 by Lebanna

[ItCouldBeWorse]

41 minutes ago, tv echo said:

Ah, Bucky showed up to help Sam and he's got a gift for Sam from Wakanda! (I bet it's a new Falcon suit.)

 

2 hours ago, Schweedie said:

Wakandan made Cap suit!

 

41 minutes ago, tv echo said:

ep, I'm betting Sam's getting a Falcon-style Captain America suit.

Should we vote?

[Lebanna]

2 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

 

 

Should we vote?

As long as it’s not Pepper’s head, I’m happy.

[swanpride]

It's for sure a falcon suit but with the option to attach a shield.

[AimingforYoko]

Nice to see JLD. European old money is definitely in her wheelhouse. 

Spoiler

Rumors are the Contessa turns up in Black Widow, which was supposed to be released before this show.

Sharon is absolutely not the Power Broker, but is she with the Flag Smashers or using them to her own ends?

[LJones41]

I'm afraid that this series has jumped the shark, as far as the narrative is concerned.  No amount of good action or acting can really save it.  And why isn't Bucky in prison for helping Zemo escape?

[cambridgeguy]

6 hours ago, paigow said:

Walker got his medals based on lies... his final lie to the Hoskins family was slightly less egregious but he clearly did not deserve to be worshipped by Lemar...

That is not clear at all.  All we've heard is that he thinks he did some bad things for those medals, and that probably means a lot of killing.  One point of view is that he was a great soldier (maybe even a super soldier!), the other is that he's a killer, even if it was justifiable under battle conditions.

And I do think Walker believes his lie because it lets him off the hook and/or it's guilt by association.  He even said it to Sam and Bucky so I don't think it was strictly a PR thing.

6 minutes ago, LJones41 said:

And why isn't Bucky in prison for helping Zemo escape?

Because we like Bucky, and characters we like get to do whatever they want with minimal consequences.

[calliope1975]

8 hours ago, Schweedie said:

And speaking of Wakanda, really glad Bucky lead the Dora Milaje to Zemo, putting things right there even if Ayo told him he might not want to visit there for a while. Her calling him White Wolf and agreeing to have Sam's new suit made tells me they're okay.

I'm glad they're on relatively good terms. Bucky may not be invited to the next cookout, but they'll still make a plate for him. 

 

7 hours ago, Lebanna said:

He’s going to be Captain America flying on African wings. And I am going to cry.

I love that an independent Black country is making tech for an African-American, and I'll join you in that cry. As someone who has no idea what part of Africa my ancestors were from, there's something significant there that I can't fully express coherently.

I loved the emotional bro talk. I also thought of how good Sam was counseling Bucky and both of them putting Steve in the past. Not forgetting him but moving on and becoming more than Friends of Steve. Frankly, just adopt/marry Bucky now. Bucky Barnes-Wilson. Make it happen.

I also thought Bucky should have easily taken down Walker on his own, but then I read a comment that it was 2 guys trying to immobilize a supe, not kill him, and I'm sure that's more difficult. I think if Bucky had gone full kill mode, it would have been over much quicker.

I like the addition of JLD to the MCU. I hope we get an eventual scene with her and Fury. Don't know much about her character beyond a quick Wiki search, but I appreciate adding more - mature is a terrible word to use but ?? - actresses. 

My favorite part of the GRC takeover was the switch in mood lighting to red. Like, what AV tech made that decision, lol. 

 

[thuganomics85]

I was out of the loop over a big cameo happening, so I definitely wasn't prepared for freaking Julia Louis-Dreyfus being brought into the MCU!  Not familiar with the Valentina Allegra de Fontaine character, but I'm guessing she's another kind of shady character, who has power that reaches quite far.  

Episode certainly pulled no punches by having the Sam/Bucky vs. John battle even before the title card.  Whatever issues I might have with him, John certainly is a fighter, so I can see why it ended up being a brutal one (although, realistically, I have to think Bucky pulls his punches at some point, because he should have the ability to really destroy someone still.)  But now John has rightfully lost the shield and the "Captain America" moniker, and seems to be only getting worse.  While I'm not 100% unsympathetic towards his anger over losing Lamar and the pressure he felt for assuming the mantle, he still is doing things that are wrong and selfish, like lying to Lamar's parents (and others?) that he actually did kill Lamar's killer and basically not acting like he feels any guilt or regret for what he did.  And now he's building his own shield.  Yeah, this is going to end well!

Won't lie: I think I could have watched an entire episode of just Sam and Bucky doing family stuff like working on the boat and Bucky crashing at the family house.  They may claim they're just a "couple of guys" who only know each other through a friend, but they really are a good team now, and understand one another in ways others don't.  Of course, depending on how real those flirty looks were between Bucky and Sarah, they might become family before they know it!  Not sure if Sam would be thrilled over that.

Once again, major, major props to the casting director for getting Carl Lumbly as Isaiah Bradley, because he is making him one of the most fascinating characters in the MCU, despite only really being in two scenes.  He really convey the history and injustice this man has suffered just trying to do the right thing, and it's so heartbreaking: especially since I sadly do think that would have happen in real life if super solider serum was a thing.  I really don't blame him for not wanting anything to do with the shield.

That said, I'm glad Sam is finally willing to make a go at it.  His misgivings and concerns over assuming the mantle are totally understandable, but I really think he's proven himself to be more than worthy of being the new Captain America.  Loved the montage and them using the end credits music for it.

Zemo has been taken by the Dora Milaje and will be locked up in the Raft now.  Which means that either a) he'll escape at some point or b) in a future film or show, an even bigger threat will show up and our intrepid hero or heroes will be like "Hey, buddy!  Can you help us with this?"  And like the professional he is, Zemo will just be like "Why, of course!"

What is Sharon up too?!

The Flag Smashers are in New York City and preparing for their endgame!  And they've got a Batroc with them!

Have to imagine that is some kind of Captain America-style suit in the briefcase.  With a touch of Wakanda!  They do make the best outfits!

Can't wait till next week!

Edited April 16, 2021 by thuganomics85

[AimingforYoko]

11 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

Not familiar with the Valentina Allegra de Fontaine

It helps if you know her other name.

[festivus]

That talk with Isaiah was heartbreaking. No one can blame him for feeling the way he does. Sam on his own path though, that's the right thing. I loved the scenes in Louisiana with his sister, nephews, the boat, the people. 

The stuff with him and Bucky throwing the shield together was almost all I wanted. I like that Bucky apologized and Sam didn't make a huge deal out of it. That's who he is. I like the contrast of how Bucky immediately told Sam he was still having nightmares as opposed to when he lied to the therapist.  I still think he needs that therapy though, I think he's transferring some of his Steve worship onto Sam which still isn't healthy. Sam is a good person though who wants to help, but it's not his job to fix Bucky or be his stand in for Steve. I don't think they're there yet, but I'm hoping for real friends someday. At the shallow end of the pond, Sam's training montage: fans self, lol.

Bucky the old 40's charmer flirting with Sarah. 'Scuse me, I need a moment.

 

 

"You made me" was chilling.

[Emma]

Carl Lumbly you deserve all the awards. That was difficult to watch. 
 

The show is doing a brilliant job of mixing in the action with the character moments. I enjoy both. 
 

I thought we’d have gotten more Sharon Carter with the way everyone hyped her return up. As a fan of her character in the comics and here I’m disappointed in these 30 second appearances. I don’t believe for a second she’s the power broker and hope they give her a bit more screen time to show what her plan really is. I certainly hope the door is left open for her return in the future.

[Absurda]

Loved this episode!  I really enjoy the fight scenes but it was really nice to have some quiet, "normal" moments for the characters to develop.  I think the writers did an great job getting these full moments in while still moving the plot and action along. 

It was so wonderful seeing Bucky genuinely smile.  Loved Bucky apologizing to Sam and Sam counseling him.  Also had to grin at them agreeing they are NOT friends when they are totally on the road to besties.  I also really enjoyed them arguing over how to fix that one piece of machinery before Sarah came along, told them they had no idea what they were doing and to let her handle it.  And they were both perfectly okay with that.

I also like that they closed the loop on Zemo.  I was fully prepared to be outraged that Bucky and Sam went back to America and left Zemo running wild for someone else to clean up.  So, glad they didn't do it that way and also used the scene to show Bucky and the Dora Milaji (especially Ayo) are back to being good.  Yeah, she's still pissed and needs some space, but they're good.

I'm really glad we got to hear Isaiah tell his story; I don't read comics so I didn't really know it.  I definitely got Tuskegee vibes from the story as well which makes it even more horrible cause you know if super soldier serum was a real thing, you could see something like this happening in real life.  I don't see Sam taking up the shield as just representing America or American powers that be, but as claiming America.  America and it's symbols aren't just for the blond and blue-eyed but for people who look like Sam and his nephews, too.

 

[festivus]

49 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

I'm glad they're on relatively good terms. Bucky may not be invited to the next cookout, but they'll still make a plate for him. 

Without Karen's potato salad. "Aw, hell naw Karen. Keep your bland ass potato salad to yourself!"

[tennisgurl]

Man, this new season of Veep is wild. 

[calliope1975]

Just now, tennisgurl said:

Man, this new season of Veep is wild. 

I was thinking how the Veep crew would handle superheroes, and all I could come up with was badly.

[Hana Chan]

I have to add that one of the most powerful moments was Bucky apologizing to Sam about how he and Steve had not considered what the burden of Captain America would mean for a black man when Steven thrust the mantle onto him. Both Bucky and Steve are not just men out of time, but they were also very unique men for their era. At a time when military units were firmly segregated and racial prejudice was pretty much the norm, they had both a black man and a Japanese American in the Howling Commandos. Both of them had seen their old comrades, and Sam, as just worthy men and did not judge them by race. While that speaks highly of both Bucky and Steve, neither of them had an appreciation of what being Captain America would mean for Sam and the challenges that he would face, They don't have an understanding of what how much of the world views someone like Sam and perhaps had expectations that were not reasonable for Sam to accept without a lot of consideration. I'll always appreciate it when one acknowledges and apologizes for their privilege without trying to justify it or offering an apology with qualifiers. Bucky's color-blindness when it comes to race is usually something to be lauded, but he's smart enough to recognize that it also lets him disregard how often race plays into things. 

I was laughing during Bucky's flirtations with Sarah. He just appreciates people for who they are. , And while Sarah is a proud black woman, she's not going to say no to a fine white boy who crosses her path.

I also very much liked that after having Zemo turned over to the Dora Milaje, Ayo informed Bucky that rather than taking Zemo to Wakanda to face justice for killing T'Chaka, they would be bringing him to the Raft. Yes, I know that this was to ensure that we have Zemo to play with in the future but it also reflects well on them that their focus was on justice and not vengeance. Having Ayo call Bucky by his Wakandan name shows that he's well on the way of redeeming himself in their eyes. It was a nice moment.

 

[MagnusHex]

While Christopher Nolan might have believed that a symbol is incorruptible, history is filled with countless examples of symbols that were corrupted and distorted to suit one's convenience (including Harvey Two-Face's name being used to hide the ugly truth of his murderous deeds in The Dark Knight trilogy). America's history was dug up again this week to remind us, as Sam put it, that the legacy of that shield is complicated. The shield is literally stained with blood this week, but it wasn't the first time the symbol of the shield left a victim, as we've seen from the case of Isaiah Bradley (highly doubt his grandson Elijah would get to play Patriot in the future, but the MCU is full of possibilities these days).

However, the shield wasn't just a weapon used for violence; it's also a heavy burden for both Sam Wilson and John Walker. For John, that burden proved too much when he let his anger and ego get the best of him. The intelligent way the show reminds us just how malleable the American symbol can be - capable of both good and evil - continues to make Phase 4 one of the most experimental and ambitious one yet.

If there is one nitpick... god, that freaking tease at the end. Now we have to wait till next week to see the new Captain America costume.

4.5/5

[Cobalt Stargazer]

11 hours ago, vb68 said:

Absolutely brutal fight between the boys and Walker. A little surprised all three could walk away from that one with no lasting damage and each one in one piece. Just saying. Brutal.

I cringed hard when Walker got his arm broken, and I don't even like the guy. That *noise* was even worse than him screaming.
 

8 hours ago, swanpride said:

I guess Zemo wanted Bucky to kill him? I mean...really? Why should Bucky do that? Bucky doesn't want to be a killer, period.

I give Zemo credit, he doesn't whinge. He didn't even look surprised when Bucky pulled the gun on him, and he went peacefully when Ayo and the other Dora showed up. My one question is, Why would they take him to the Raft? Why not Wakanda?

Training montage!

 

2 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

Because we like Bucky, and characters we like get to do whatever they want with minimal consequences.

Perversely enough, I'm hoping to see more complaints about that. (Hi, Wanda.) Yes, we like Bucky, but he broke the law and helped a dangerous criminal escape from prison. Now that Zemo is going back to jail, no one has to worry about him running around loose, and I guess it's okay that "only" other criminals were killed this time, and yet. He's lucky he only briefly lost his arm.

So who is this Contessa person? "You can call me Val, but don't. Just keep it in your head." Is she well known in the comics or something, because I have no idea of who she's supposed to be.
 

1 hour ago, festivus said:

"You made me" was chilling.

Again, I don't like John, but he's right. The government gave him the shield, clearly without doing any vetting to see if he was capable of being more than a propaganda device, and before that they gave him medals for doing God knows what. They only stripped him of the mantle because of the embarrassment factor, and now he's walking around lying to people about what really happened. I thought Lamar's sister looked a bit suspicious of him when he was talking to the parent,s but I could be misreading it.

Edited April 16, 2021 by Cobalt Stargazer

[AnimeMania]

2 hours ago, AimingforYoko said:

Sharon is absolutely not the Power Broker, but is she with the Flag Smashers or using them to her own ends?

Hopefully Sharon sabotaged the weapons that she gave the Flag Smashers and also put a tracker on them.

As long as the Wakandans included the little jet plane in the wings, I will be happy, he is my favorite character. They should make Sam's goggles out of Vibranium, since they never survive any of his scrimmages. 

Even though Bucky is flirting with Sam's sister, I am pretty sure he will end up with the bartender from the first episode.

[LaJefaza]

I love that Sam is finally feeling worthy enough to take up the shield. I saw the pain in his face that he had to take it by force from Walker. You could tell it was the last thing he wanted to do. He's been trying diplomacy for the longest while with both him and Karli to no avail. He may not have liked Walker, but Sam had been willing to give him a chance, or at least leave him alone to do what he had to do. Walker was such a terrible choice that it made Sam come to reckon with his insecurities and self-doubt faster than he anticipated. Sometimes in life the signs keep coming until you do what needs to be done. The shield being used to slaughter someone was the biggest sign possible.

I also loved Sam's training montage and the fact that the show is acknowledging that for a non-super human it is no easy feat to be a superhero. He doesn't just wake up and get it done. We're seeing the blood, sweat and tears it will take for him to get ready. Really ready. And at one point when Sam threw the shield and it boomeranged back to him at full speed and almost decapitated him, I swear I heard Steve say "on your left."

Isaiah's statement to Sam that people are not ready for a Black Captain America is so true, truer that even the writers of this show are probably able to grasp. Or maybe they are. I remember the outrage in certain spaces after Endgame, with some (definitely not all, of course) people claiming that Tony Stark dying and Steve Rogers ageing and handing the shield over to a minority were "erasure" and "pandering". There are people who are pissed about the possibility of a Black Captain America right here in the real world. That scene might be more meta than they want to admit.

SCHWEEDIE said this in last week's thread and I'm in total agreement.

Quote

John Walker may be (is) a terrible Captain America, but Wyatt Russell is a great John Walker.

Wyatt Russell is doing a phenomenal job. He's taken Walker through the range of humble, unsure, terrified, arrogant and insane in such a visceral and believable way. That there are boneheads out there who think it makes sense to harass an actor for doing a great job portraying a character they don't like, is testament not just to the fact that humanity is growing dangerously stupider by the minute, but also that this guy is consistently knocking it out of the park.

Sam's 'tough love' for Bucky was great. I thought it was fantastic advice to be of service to the people he'd wronged. Going about trying to make himself feel better was making him miserable. That's exactly the type of advice Captain America should give. And Bucky was great with Sam's family. He turned on the charm for Sarah and she was HERE for it. It was adorable. He's on his way to being back to his old (and I mean OLD) tomcat self. He's come a long way from having to be strong-armed (heh) into that date with that bartender back in the first episode. The Winter Soldier was actually grinning this episode. Who would have thought.

I hate to admit how much Zemo amused me, but here we are. I still don't think this is the last time we'll see him. But I love that Bucky kept his word to the Wakandans and turned him over. He really was the means to an end.

2 hours ago, calliope1975 said:

I'm glad they're on relatively good terms. Bucky may not be invited to the next cookout, but they'll still make a plate for him.

Love this.

Meanwhile:

Sebastian...Sir...cut it out. Cease and desist. I'm supposed to be 'working'. Stop it right now, Seb. Or...you know...keep going, I guess?

[magdalene]

Wyatt Russell, who has been excellent as John all along was so heart breaking this episode.  I know a lot of people hate the character but I see him as a tragic character.  And John Walker is quite right about a couple of the things he said.  They did make him.  And how about giving a soldier some treatment when he is showing numerous signs of PTSD. Anyways, I dislike the politicians who first gave him the shield, and then took it from him a lot more than John Walker.

I hope the last episode means the end of Karli.  Now her I dislike.  A terrorist with a messiah complex and a hypocrit all in one.

People keep telling me that Zemo going to this "Raft" prison means we will see him again.  Good.  He is so much fun to watch.

[tennisgurl]

After all of the drama and action of the last few episodes, its great to take a little breather and allow the characters some time to reflect on everything that has happened. All of the scenes between Bucky and Sam in Louisiana were so warm, I think this is probably the most we have seen Bucky smile since the first Captain America movie. I eat that domestic shit up, so I would be fine just watching a whole episode of Sam and Bucky fixing boats, talking about stuff, having training montages, we even saw a bit of that old Bucky Barnes charm with the ladies that we haven't seen since the 40s when he flirted a bit with Sarah, and while Sarah actually seemed receptive, Sam...was less than thrilled. They both seemed so relaxed, especially after everything that went down in Europe, in this nice town with Sam's nice family. Bucky's smile watching Sam's nephews playing with the shield was such a sweet moment, he looked so relax in a way that's so rare. 

I am really glad that the two of them finally had a real talk about Steve and his legacy, and where they both go from here. Bucky didn't really think about how complicated the legacy of being Captain America could be for a black man, and he ended up putting a lot of his own feelings about the shield onto Sam. That shield was his last connection to Steve, to the life he had before he was the Winter Soldier, and seeing it retired and then given to someone unworthy of it felt like he had finally lost Steve for real. I also think it was really important that Sam gave him some real talk about his recovery, that he needs to work to do good instead of obsessing over what he was forced to do for Hydra. The thing is, as much as Bucky wants to redeem himself and make up for everything he did as the Winter Soldier...those were things he was forced to do, its not like it was his fault. Hydra did those terrible things, Bucky was victim who was forced into carrying out those atrocities against his will. I think before he really starts to heal, he needs to realize that he cant keep beating himself up over for things he had no control over. Its good to want to bring down evil people and do good for the people that Hydra hurt, but he needs to realize that he cant carry that guilt with him. So many people have talked about how he has to make amends and atone and redeem himself but that really isn't fair. Its not something he did that has left him so traumatized, it was something that was done to him, and hopefully he is getting close to understanding that so he can really put the Winter Soldier behind him. 

I had no clue that Julia Louis-Dreyfus was going to be in this, I admit I full on gasped when she showed up. I guess we know what Selena Meyer got up to after her unimpressive one term as president. She certainly call pull off that upper crust old money vibe, and if she is still who she is in the comic, she will feature quite a bit more down the line. She is really channeling that Veep energy, this is going to be so much fun. 

Sam's talk with Isaiah Bradley was just so terribly heartbreaking, there is just so much pain and injustice in his tragic story. As others have pointed out, it has a clear parallel to the horrible Tuskegee Experiments and the generally despicable treatment of people of color who served their country and then were thrown away and mistreated. He has been through so much and been so betrayed by his own government, its not surprising that he is so bitter, even though Sam was clearly really hurt by his comments about how no self respecting black man could ever want to carry the shield. Its not unfair for him to feel like that after everything, but it clearly shook Sam a lot, especially when he started talking about Steve, a very sored subject for Sam. It probably is for the best that he just be left to what life he has left, but I would really like it if people could know who he was and what all he accomplished. 

Sam was clearly shaken by their whole talk and his general doubts as to whether or not he could live up to Steve's legacy or if people would accept him, a black man, as Captain America at all. However, after talking with his sister and Bucky and ruminating more on the very complicated legacy of the red, white, and blue, I am so happy that he finally realized that he is the right man for the job and that he can take on this mantle. Its true that his country has treated marginalized people shamefully for generations, but that's why he is the right man to be the next Captain America. He can represent an America that's multiracial and multicultural, so that kids like his nephews can see him and know that they can do anything and be anyone they want to be, that they belong in this country and that their stories have meaning, that all people are created equal. He can be the Captain American that the world needs, a world that desperately needs hope and to look to a better future, a future for everyone. Steve as Cap represented the purest form of the American Dream, of freedom and decency and justice, to be the nation that it should be, that it could be, but so often isn't, and Sam can do just the same, being an America that really could be a land of freedom and promise for everyone, not just the people who have held the power since its beginning. Its understandable that Isaiah Bradley feels like its impossible, but that is just one mans opinion, it doesn't have to be Sam's. He can still try to make a difference, if no one tries to change things, nothing will get changed, and Sam is the kind of guy who can do it. I am guessing that Bucky asked the Wakandan's to make Sam some Cap inspired wings or a shiny new Falcon/Captain hybrid costume, and that really is really powerful. An African superpower helping to empower an African American superhero. 

So Sam's nephews calling Sam Uncle Sam while he was training with the shield isn't a coincidence right?

That fight between Walker, Bucky, and Sam was pretty brutal, even as Sam and Bucky seemed to be holding back because they didn't actually want to seriously hurt him until they had to. Walker is losing it so much he really did seem to think that the guy he killed killed Lemar, like he just cannot contemplate how he could be making these mistakes. He's Captain American damn it, he cant make these mistakes. He is clearly on the fast track to villainy, but I do feel some sympathy for him. He isn't wrong that the military created him, encouraged these aspects of him, they gave him his orders, they gave him this mantle, he took it on because he thought it was the best thing for his country and because those were orders, and now they just want him gone after he screwed up and made them look bad. They certainly aren't wrong to do that, he did something horrible and is clearly going dark very quickly, but he is clearly spiraling and feels abandoned and betrayed by the people he has given so much of his life to. He doesn't even really seem to get why what he did was wrong, just making excuses and asking why what he did was so bad, even as he was being stripped of rank and kicked out. He was just a bad choice, you could even say that the people that picked him as the new Cap are the ones who really created this problem, and feels like he is being punished for doing what he was told to do, even if that is also removing a lot of his personal responsibility for the terrible mistakes he's made. Walker just doesn't have the strength or character and conviction that Steve did and Sam does, he doesn't understand struggle like them, he doesn't really know who he is outside of being a soldier, this was never going to work, even without him taking the serum and losing Lemar. He thought that this would be easy, was told it would be easy, and buckled under the pressure when it wasn't. I think he did mean well, and was even a good man to start with, but that goodness is clearly falling away. So now does he want to "prove" that he's Captain America after he failed for the first time? Oh, this is gonna be a lot. 

I still have no idea what is going on with Sharon. I think she is playing some kind of long game. 

Zemo escaped, but only to see the memorial at his destroyed homeland. His last scene with Bucky was great, and a very classy way for him to exit the show (for now?), still not a good guy but a person with a sense of nobility in his way. So glad that Bucky turned him into the Dora Milaje who are taking him to The Raft, which will hopefully be harder for him to escape from. It also seems like he is on better terms with them again, the exchange where Ayo said that he should avoid Wakanda for a bit but then also called him White Wolf and still did him a favor seemed to say that they were still upset, but they would get over it, they wont be mad at him forever. 

[KittenPokerCheater]

It just occurred to me:  Uncle Sam is going to be our Captain America. Am I the only one who's just cluing into this kinda play on words/metaphor/symbolism  now?    Because according to wiki: "Since the early 19th century, Uncle Sam has been a popular symbol of the US government in American culture and a manifestation of patriotic emotion."

This may be my favorite episode of the season.  I could watch Sam and Bucky fixing boats/talking all day.

What is the Raft?

And I think the actor with the cameo is the power broker too.

And YAY- A stinger at the end of the credits.  FINALLY.  :)

 

Edited April 16, 2021 by KittenPokerCheater