S05.E12: Both Things Can Be True

[TeeVeeWatcher]

On 4/8/2021 at 12:57 PM, Ohiopirate02 said:

Yes when Kevin wants to quit football because he has difficulty memorizing the playbook and his coach is a dick.  Randall does more to help Kevin than his parents in that episode.  Jack does step up to curb the coach but he (and Rebecca) do nothing to make sure Kevin does not have some kind of learning disability or ADHD.  

No one was looking for learning disabilities in the 90s, though ADHD diagnoses were on the rise. In the mid 2000s it took five years for anyone to suggest my struggling kid may have a learning disability (he was 16 by then) - instead we heard over and over he was lazy and had an attitude problem.  

[chocolatine]

2 hours ago, PRgal said:

For example, I've been told that I'm a "bad mom" because I didn't do BLM

For a second I thought you were mom-shamed for not taking your baby to a protest.

[Ohmo]

On 4/6/2021 at 10:17 PM, funnygirl said:

Little girl, you are not a victim. And, no, your mother doesn't have to knock on a door in a house that you pay no bills for. 

This was my very first thought.  My father would have totally said the above...and it would not have mattered if Tess's love interest was he, she, or they.  Alex showed more maturity than Tess did.  As they were leaving, they told Tess that it was cool.

ETA:

Quote

Sophie looked wistful, the other 2 looked like they were fine with it.

I took that whole montage as a turning-the page moment for Kevin: recognition that his "heartthrob" Manny days are over and this is a brand new chapter. I thought Sophie's reaction was recognition that they've both moved on---a marking of that moment.

Edited April 11, 2021 by Ohmo

[PRgal]

38 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

For a second I thought you were mom-shamed for not taking your baby to a protest.

I meant BLW.  Don’t know why I typed “M”

[Ohmo]

On 4/7/2021 at 12:55 AM, 30 Helens said:

My thoughts exactly. And I was surprised her pronoun-enlightened mother didn’t point this out.

My thought about that has a parallel to disability.  As I've mentioned before in this forum, I was born with a physical disability. My mother (and I've heard other people with disabilities say similar things about their parents) talked about going through a period where she re-thought how my life would be.  I've done plenty of things, but they haven't always been the way my siblings have done them. I think the same is true of Beth. She can do all the things with Tess that she mentioned, but Beth's still in the stage that her mom mentioned. She's processing in her own mind that Tess's life will be different from her original perception. She's still in the midst of processing, just like I think Tess is also processing about her sexual orientation.

Edited April 11, 2021 by Ohmo

[Ohmo]

On 4/7/2021 at 2:14 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I don't think this show is trying to portray transracial adoption as inherently bad but they are pointing out all the things that well intentioned people do not think about that can affect these children and how those things can have psychological effects for years. Just because you have good intentions and you love your kids doesn't mean that you will avoid giving them issues that they might be dealing with decades later.

I understand your point, but kids can have psychological issues from their childhoods about any number of things, not just about adoption. And while there are cultural issues to address when children and parents come from different cultural backgrounds, the implicit message that does seem to be coming through is that Jack and Rebecca harmed Randall and the adoptive parents of these children also did them more harm than good by adopting them. I'm not adopted, but when the show has a character say that she would have rather stayed with a mother who did not seem equipped to care for her, the implicit message the show is sending is that adoption is harmful.

[bros402]

11 hours ago, watch2much said:

am I the only one that has started to regard watching this show more of an obligation than an enjoyment?  

the drip, drip, drip of the big three's "problems" are wearing me down.  I know adults have problems but when this show started it was about a happy couple raising 3 children....there were problems but you had upbeat Jack and Rebecca to offset it. Now they've taken our comedic breathe of air, Toby, and made him another sad sack.  It's just morose person after morose person.  except for Kevin who's like a puppy trying to figure out how to act.  I like him.  

as others have pointed out....why did the Beth/Tess thing have to become such a weighted affair.  I was waiting for the "your sister isn't allowed to close the door and neither are you!" which would have shut down the "you look at me different" trope.

I don't know how much longer this show will keep my interest. Might be time to leap forward a bit and show the next generation.

It's still an enjoyable hatewatch

4 hours ago, Ohmo said:

My thought about that has a parallel to disability.  As I've mentioned before in this forum, I was born with a physical disability. My mother (and I've heard other people with disabilities say similar things about their parents) talked about going through a period where she re-thought how my life would be.  I've done plenty of things, but they haven't always been the way my siblings have done them. I think the same is true of Beth. She can do all the things with Tess that she mentioned, but Beth's still in the stage that her mom mentioned. She's processing in her own mind that Tess's life will be different from her original perception. She's still in the midst of processing, just like I think Tess is also processing about her sexual orientation.

Yeah, i'm also disabled - I went into special education and one of the first things we learned is that when a parent has a child with a disability, they grieve. In the case of a child being disabled from birth, all of the hopes and dreams they had for that kid are dashed in an instant - they have to try to adjust and figure things out. Eventually, hopefully, they adjust and figure out what is next for their child.

[JudyObscure]

14 hours ago, Ohmo said:

Alex showed more maturity than Tess did.  As they were leaving, they told Tess that it was cool.

Yes, and what shocked me was Beth sending Alex home.  Why not just open the door and say, "Ah ah, none of that. No necking, and no being in this room with the door shut. Now go downstairs, dinner will be ready soon."  All that special food!

[ams1001]

5 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

Yes, and what shocked me was Beth sending Alex home.  Why not just open the door and say, "Ah ah, none of that. No necking, and no being in this room with the door shut. Now go downstairs, dinner will be ready soon."  All that special food!

But I don't think she was going to send Alex home until Tess got an attitude and called her a psycho.

She should have just said "your sister can't have her boyfriend in her bedroom with the door closed and the rules are no different for you." 

[OdinO.]

19 hours ago, MBayGal said:

When she waddled into the room where Toby was to say Goodbye before leaving for her job, and he said, "I'm hot for teacher," I laughed.  Really??!! As for handling "two little ones without problems," have we ever seen her bend over to pick up Jack or get a toy off the floor?  I doubt Chrissy is able to do that.  It's only in the writers' fantasy world that she can care for babies without problems.

Yeah, that was cringy. 

2 hours ago, ams1001 said:

But I don't think she was going to send Alex home until Tess got an attitude and called her a psycho.

She should have just said "your sister can't have her boyfriend in her bedroom with the door closed and the rules are no different for you." 

Right, Tess's issue is she is a spoiled, sanctimonious, brat. Not that she is gay.

[mansonlamps]

19 hours ago, Ohmo said:

This was my very first thought.  My father would have totally said the above...and it would not have mattered if Tess's love interest was he, she, or they.  Alex showed more maturity than Tess did.  As they were leaving, they told Tess that it was cool.

I would really struggle in today's world I think, luckily for me the young people at my job haven't changed any pronouns yet.   When I read your last sentence,  I was thinking "wait,  was someone else with her?"  And you can say 'how hard is it' but imagine professors trying to remember the pronouns of 100 kids.  And the plural contradicts everything we've been taught.  I don't think people are trying to be asses, it's a very different mindset and takes some getting used to to get it right. 

[Lone Wolf]

On 4/9/2021 at 3:43 PM, chocolatine said:

Such a catch that 30+ prospective employers have passed on him.

Right?  What was that all about?  I thought maybe he was being cynical or sarcastic, but he really seemed to mean it.  He even prefaced with something along the lines of, "I don't wanna brag" or something like that, and then Kate agreed with him after he said it.

[Ohmo]

8 hours ago, ams1001 said:

But I don't think she was going to send Alex home until Tess got an attitude and called her a psycho.

She should have just said "your sister can't have her boyfriend in her bedroom with the door closed and the rules are no different for you." 

Agreed.  It was after she said "What did you call me" that she decided to send Alex home. At that point, it was more about Tess's disrespectful attitude than her sexual orientation.  Alex was quiet.  I think they had an understanding that they were a guest in someone's home and they were also in a room with their girlfriend with the door closed.  Had Tess not mouthed off to her mother, I think Beth would have been fine with them being on the couch downstairs.  I think Alex would have been fine with it, too.

[chocolatine]

6 hours ago, Lone Wolf said:

Right?  What was that all about?  I thought maybe he was being cynical or sarcastic, but he really seemed to mean it.  He even prefaced with something along the lines of, "I don't wanna brag" or something like that, and then Kate agreed with him after he said it.

Maybe some kind of affirmation or "fake it 'til you make it" sort of thing? It was weird, but I liked it better than mopey Toby ruining sushi night.

Edited April 12, 2021 by chocolatine

[PRgal]

17 hours ago, bros402 said:

It's still an enjoyable hatewatch

Yeah, i'm also disabled - I went into special education and one of the first things we learned is that when a parent has a child with a disability, they grieve. In the case of a child being disabled from birth, all of the hopes and dreams they had for that kid are dashed in an instant - they have to try to adjust and figure things out. Eventually, hopefully, they adjust and figure out what is next for their child.

I diagnosed with epilepsy when I was six and my parents tried to keep things as "normal" as possible.  They even told me the meds I was taking were "vitamins."  I'm sure they grieved, as they did when they found cafe au lait spots and lumps on my body (turned out to be a genetic disorder, called neurofibromatosis, which was diagnosed much later).  I blamed a lot of the things they did (like hiding the fact they were meds and not allowing me to go to camp or having sleepovers) to the fact that they were immigrant parents, and not in their culture, but in reality, as I learned as an adult, it was a mix of both, leaning more towards the "disability."  It did cause some anxiety as I became a teenager, and it's something that I carry on and off to this day, at 41 (and it has escalated due to the pandemic).  I think they finally knew I could do well on my own when they were okay with me not only going away to school (this was always in the books, anyway.  The school just had to be close enough not to require a flight or even more than 3 hours by car), but spending a semester abroad.  And in many ways, my parents had it harder than Kate and Toby do with Jack - for Jack, there's a known plan and known alternatives.  For me, well, epilepsy and the (then unknown) condition I had are more uncertain since you never know when a seizure can occur, even with medication. 

[bros402]

5 hours ago, PRgal said:

I diagnosed with epilepsy when I was six and my parents tried to keep things as "normal" as possible.  They even told me the meds I was taking were "vitamins."  I'm sure they grieved, as they did when they found cafe au lait spots and lumps on my body (turned out to be a genetic disorder, called neurofibromatosis, which was diagnosed much later).  I blamed a lot of the things they did (like hiding the fact they were meds and not allowing me to go to camp or having sleepovers) to the fact that they were immigrant parents, and not in their culture, but in reality, as I learned as an adult, it was a mix of both, leaning more towards the "disability."  It did cause some anxiety as I became a teenager, and it's something that I carry on and off to this day, at 41 (and it has escalated due to the pandemic).  I think they finally knew I could do well on my own when they were okay with me not only going away to school (this was always in the books, anyway.  The school just had to be close enough not to require a flight or even more than 3 hours by car), but spending a semester abroad.  And in many ways, my parents had it harder than Kate and Toby do with Jack - for Jack, there's a known plan and known alternatives.  For me, well, epilepsy and the (then unknown) condition I had are more uncertain since you never know when a seizure can occur, even with medication. 

I was also diagnosed with epilepsy when I was six - my parents were very open with me about it, made sure I was well educated on my epilepsy - and they also made sure I knew my other conditions in case of emergency.

I have complex partial epilepsy, you? I've also been on a total of nine meds for my seizures (Haven't had one in 5 years, but almost had a breakthrough one in June).

[PRgal]

9 hours ago, bros402 said:

I was also diagnosed with epilepsy when I was six - my parents were very open with me about it, made sure I was well educated on my epilepsy - and they also made sure I knew my other conditions in case of emergency.

I have complex partial epilepsy, you? I've also been on a total of nine meds for my seizures (Haven't had one in 5 years, but almost had a breakthrough one in June).

Focal/generalized (what the CDC’s website calls secondary generalized). They’re under control with medication, thank goodness.  I’m only on one med. 

[Boo Boo]

So Kate had no real experience to be in the position she is in and whatever degree she magically got isn't music related.  Is her only qualification that she has a blind son and can hold a tune?   

This is slightly more realistic than the adoption story, but still.  

[Boo Boo]

One of the most unrealistic things to me is:  Why haven't Kevin and Randall actually talked about their fight?  They're obviously talking.  So why are they not addressing the fight they had?  What is the purpose of delaying it except for the writers setting up another untimely showdown?  

[Lone Wolf]

5 hours ago, Boo Boo said:

So Kate had no real experience to be in the position she is in and whatever degree she magically got isn't music related.  Is her only qualification that she has a blind son and can hold a tune?   

 

Well, let's not forget.  She's also a Pearson.  Not only a Pearson, but one of the founding members of the original Big Three.  With all the all the rights and privileges pertaining thereto.  Said rights and privileges including speechifying, studiousity, opinionation, and rising above one's oh-so-humble beginnings. 

Oh, and that eternally rare Pearson "energy".   

[ams1001]

6 hours ago, Boo Boo said:

One of the most unrealistic things to me is:  Why haven't Kevin and Randall actually talked about their fight?  They're obviously talking.  So why are they not addressing the fight they had?  What is the purpose of delaying it except for the writers setting up another untimely showdown?  

Cuz it's more meaningful in person. Even if it means you have to fly across the country in a pandemic. Apparently.

Are we jumping ahead a month or two or did they both get the one-shot J&J right after they hung up?

[bros402]

13 hours ago, PRgal said:

Focal/generalized (what the CDC’s website calls secondary generalized). They’re under control with medication, thank goodness.  I’m only on one med. 

I'm on Keppra & Vimpat at the moment. In the past, I've taken Dilantin, Tegretol, Trileptal, Depakote, Tegretol XR, Lamictal, and Depakote ER.

13 hours ago, Boo Boo said:

So Kate had no real experience to be in the position she is in and whatever degree she magically got isn't music related.  Is her only qualification that she has a blind son and can hold a tune?   

Assuming CA is like NJ and this position is similar to a paraprofessional - or a classroom aide, then the bare minimum requirement tends to be 60 college credits - so Kate is technically qualified for the position. She's also brave enough to go outside during the pandemic with her health and her family. What was her degree in, anyway? I think it might've been education? If she did, then she'd be qualified - she's not teaching the class, so no need to be certified in music education.

[Lady Calypso]

19 hours ago, Boo Boo said:

One of the most unrealistic things to me is:  Why haven't Kevin and Randall actually talked about their fight?  They're obviously talking.  So why are they not addressing the fight they had?  What is the purpose of delaying it except for the writers setting up another untimely showdown?  

I actually don't think it's that unrealistic. I think, with some people, they'd rather avoid the hard conversations after an issue and pretend everything's fine until they absolutely have to talk. I am definitely one of those people. We know Kevin has half assed an apology, and Randall kind of accepted it, but they haven't talked about the fight in detail, which they need to do. But I think it's realistic that they're both avoiding the real hard part in their reconciliation. 

Listen; after we've had Kate get a job that she has no real qualifications for (and, as we saw, she didn't really do much but encourage the student singing), and these people traveling all over the country (and sometimes out of the country!) in a pandemic with some half assed line about quarantining for two weeks, I think Randall/Kevin not discussing the context of their big fight is one of the more realistic things they've done. I appreciate the show for not automatically going to them forgiving each other and not talking things out, like a lot of shows would do.

[gonzosgirrl]

3 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Listen; after we've had Kate get a job that she has no real qualifications for (and, as we saw, she didn't really do much but encourage the student singing), and these people traveling all over the country (and sometimes out of the country!) in a pandemic with some half assed line about quarantining for two weeks, I think Randall/Kevin not discussing the context of their big fight is one of the more realistic things they've done. I appreciate the show for not automatically going to them forgiving each other and not talking things out, like a lot of shows would do.

LOL, so true. But...

Spoiler

Isn't that what the next episode is about? I sincerely hope it isn't all one-side, with Kevin groveling to Randall for forgiveness. There were times (including that last big blow out) when Randall was as big a jerk, if not bigger, to Kevin. And we have seen Kevin be there for Randall during his breakdowns, at least twice. I'm kind of dreading the ep, tbh.

 

[smartymarty]

21 hours ago, Lone Wolf said:

Well, let's not forget.  She's also a Pearson.  Not only a Pearson, but one of the founding members of the original Big Three.  With all the all the rights and privileges pertaining thereto.  Said rights and privileges including speechifying, studiousity, opinionation, and rising above one's oh-so-humble beginnings. 

Which is why Pearsons always get the job (remember when Rebecca got that secretarial job way back, after Randall Pearsoned (TM) the interviewer), while people like Toby, merely married to a Pearson, lost his and was turned down by 40 other people, and Beth got fired from some city planning job.

[Pallas]

Quote

When the show has a character say that she would have rather stayed with a mother who did not seem equipped to care for her, the implicit message the show is sending is that adoption is harmful.

I think that the deliberate message the show is sending is that adoption can be harmful for some adoptees, and a mixed bag of painful and fortunate by others. 

[chocolatine]

45 minutes ago, Pallas said:

I think that the deliberate message the show is sending is that adoption can be harmful for some adoptees, and a mixed bag of painful and fortunate by others. 

Completely ignoring the obvious fact that staying with birth parents who aren't willing or able to parent would be far more harmful to far more people.

Edited April 14, 2021 by chocolatine

[Pallas]

8 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

Completely ignoring the obvious fact that staying with birth parents who aren't willing or able to parent would be far more harmful to far more people.

Perhaps redressing the balance by exploring facts and complexities that aren't as obvious. 

[chocolatine]

1 minute ago, Pallas said:

Perhaps redressing the balance by exploring facts and complexities that aren't as obvious. 

To really redress the balance, we should hear from a group of people who wish they had been adopted instead of growing up in their biological families.

[Boo Boo]

On 4/13/2021 at 9:18 AM, Lady Calypso said:

I actually don't think it's that unrealistic. I think, with some people, they'd rather avoid the hard conversations after an issue and pretend everything's fine until they absolutely have to talk. I am definitely one of those people. We know Kevin has half assed an apology, and Randall kind of accepted it, but they haven't talked about the fight in detail, which they need to do. But I think it's realistic that they're both avoiding the real hard part in their reconciliation. 

Listen; after we've had Kate get a job that she has no real qualifications for (and, as we saw, she didn't really do much but encourage the student singing), and these people traveling all over the country (and sometimes out of the country!) in a pandemic with some half assed line about quarantining for two weeks, I think Randall/Kevin not discussing the context of their big fight is one of the more realistic things they've done. I appreciate the show for not automatically going to them forgiving each other and not talking things out, like a lot of shows would do.

Very good points, but I just don't believe that two brothers can say such horrible things to each other but still somehow talk to each other for months on end w/o at least apologizing to each other for the words that were said. I can buy that people don't really dig down deep and will delay talking about the feelings behind the words, but I have a hard time believing that they could maintain a relationship for that long w/o an apology.  

 

Edited April 14, 2021 by Boo Boo

[Boo Boo]

On 4/13/2021 at 1:41 AM, bros402 said:

I'm on Keppra & Vimpat at the moment. In the past, I've taken Dilantin, Tegretol, Trileptal, Depakote, Tegretol XR, Lamictal, and Depakote ER.

Assuming CA is like NJ and this position is similar to a paraprofessional - or a classroom aide, then the bare minimum requirement tends to be 60 college credits - so Kate is technically qualified for the position. She's also brave enough to go outside during the pandemic with her health and her family. What was her degree in, anyway? I think it might've been education? If she did, then she'd be qualified - she's not teaching the class, so no need to be certified in music education.

But there were far more qualified people with degrees in music that applied, apparently.  Kate just *had* something that the employer just loved.

(I understand in real life that can happen; but we've just seen this act before on this show).  

[CrystalBlue]

On 4/9/2021 at 3:43 PM, chocolatine said:

Such a catch that 30+ prospective employers have passed on him.

Ageism is a real thing in hiring.  Perhaps @Janie430 is spot on and that's why Tobes has been passed over time and time again.

[PRgal]

2 minutes ago, CrystalBlue said:

Ageism is a real thing in hiring.  Perhaps @Janie430 is spot on and that's why Tobes has been passed over time and time again.

And so is lookism.  Face it, Toby doesn't have that "tech dude" look.  

[chocolatine]

1 hour ago, CrystalBlue said:

Ageism is a real thing in hiring.  Perhaps @Janie430 is spot on and that's why Tobes has been passed over time and time again.

 

1 hour ago, PRgal said:

And so is lookism.  Face it, Toby doesn't have that "tech dude" look.  

He's not *that* old, and there are plenty of people in their 40s in tech. It's after 55 where I see a sharp drop-off. Also, the "tech dude look" is a myth. I've been in the tech industry for 15 years and worked at two FAANG companies as well as a few startups and mid-size companies, and haven't met a single tech person who cares much about looks (their own or anyone else's).

In my opinion Toby isn't getting hired because he comes across as needy. In the tech industry there's actually no shortage of jobs despite the pandemic, and good candidates usually get multiple offers, so a candidate who admits that he flunked 30+ interviews and seems desperate for the job raises red flags.

[bros402]

18 hours ago, Boo Boo said:

But there were far more qualified people with degrees in music that applied, apparently.  Kate just *had* something that the employer just loved.

(I understand in real life that can happen; but we've just seen this act before on this show).  

Yeah - the principal just loved her because she's a Pearson.

oooh, or maybe she's a fan of The Manny and wants some stuff signed by Kevin 😛

[Miss Bones]

On 4/7/2021 at 12:09 AM, tennisgurl said:

I was hoping that we could take a break from Randall's trans racial adoption angst after Randall got closure skinny dipping with his ghost mom, but apparently not.

I'm a little late here, but this is the best opening line of a post!  I snorted.  Thanks for the laugh!

[izabella]

On 4/13/2021 at 11:36 PM, chocolatine said:

Completely ignoring the obvious fact that staying with birth parents who aren't willing or able to parent would be far more harmful to far more people.

I think Deja's story addressed that issue somewhat. 

[BoogieBurns]

On 4/10/2021 at 4:54 PM, MBayGal said:

When she waddled into the room where Toby was to say Goodbye before leaving for her job, and he said, "I'm hot for teacher," I laughed.  Really??!!

Chrissy Metz is engaged in real life and beautiful. Are you incapable of imagining a world where a man finds her sexually attractive? Because plenty of people do.

[DanaK]

Nvm

Edited April 16, 2021 by DanaK

[MBayGal]

22 hours ago, BoogieBurns said:

Chrissy Metz is engaged in real life and beautiful. Are you incapable of imagining a world where a man finds her sexually attractive? Because plenty of people do.

I am glad for her that some people find her attractive and even sexy. I do not.

[LadyIrony]

The Adoption support group seems very "First World Problems" to me. Those people were for various reasons were left without their birth parents and were brought up by other people, yes, people who "didn't look like them" given the rules and regulations around adoptions they would have been placed with at the least middle class parents and none of them look like they were worse off for it. 

Some of their comments were also rather racist "I looked around and no one looked like me" yeah well, perhaps you could have been looking around an orphanage and seen a bunch of people who looked like you?

I think Randall shut up because perhaps the penny was finally dropping in his head that he actually owes everything he has to being adopted. 

 

Edited April 17, 2021 by LadyIrony

[Tabbygirl521]

On 4/7/2021 at 7:48 AM, BoogieBurns said:

Well, she's very beautiful and was on basically every magazine cover about a month ago. So it was pretty spot on. On a shallow note, I want to see her face more.

Edit: can't find who asked, but Alex would be Tess' partner, not girlfriend. Tess would be Alex's girlfriend or partner. Hope that clears it up.

Last note, no need to be fully adjusted to using they/them pronouns. But don't misgender, go ahead and call them by their name "Alex needs to leave" if you refuse "they need to head home." 

 

It was probably a coincidence but I liked that Meghan Markle was on the cover (of US, no less, heh heh) since she’s been going through her own difficulties with racism and family tensions. 

[Tabbygirl521]

On 4/8/2021 at 11:09 AM, smartymarty said:

Exactly what my husband said at the time: "Guys don't care about weddings."
 

I want to like your post 1,000 times. It makes me realize, too, that all the things Miguel listed that Jack did "for the girl" was really "to get the girl." It wasn't to make Rebecca happy.

It never dawned on me before but now I’m thinking Miguel may be a much better partner for Rebecca than Jack was. I love him (although I pretty much liked Jack too) and hope we get to see a lot more of their story at some point. 

[debraran]

6 hours ago, Tabbygirl521 said:

It never dawned on me before but now I’m thinking Miguel may be a much better partner for Rebecca than Jack was. I love him (although I pretty much liked Jack too) and hope we get to see a lot more of their story at some point. 

I agree. Jack suppressed her in a lot of ways. She didn't know, she was used to it, but I think Miguel would have pushed her to work if she wanted too, sing, etc. Jack was trying to fill holes from his youth and other things. He was human but did he bring out the best in his children and Rebecca? Randall and Kevin were okay, he crippled Kate in some ways, although she needs to take responsibility for that decades ago and Rebecca needed Randall to take care of her since she was so dependent on Jack (and this was 1998) Mourning is one thing, but everyone seemed to fall apart but Kevin. Randall would have been okay at school, but babysat. I say babysat because didn't she go on dates with him or something like that? I just remember it being odd. They all needed counseling but strong isn't a word that was prominent.

Edited April 19, 2021 by debraran

[Thumper]

On 4/6/2021 at 9:11 PM, Blakeston said:

As a queer person who knows all about people's awkward reactions to queerness, I don't think they did a very good job of showing us that Beth was displaying discomfort in front of Tess.

Are we supposed to believe that she wouldn't make a similar face if she had walked in on Deja making out with a boy in bed when she was 13?

That was my thought too — it seemed the same reaction to seeing one’s daughter with a boy, alone, door closed.  But Tess would not see it that way, understandably.  

[Thumper]

On 4/6/2021 at 9:23 PM, tennisgurl said:

Madison really has been hanging with the Pearson's a lot, she got her wedding venue changed via a very classic Pearson speech. Of course, no one in this universe just does things or wants things because of taste, they always have to have some big dramatic story to go with it. So its not just Madison wanting a different venue, its a long story about her parents taking her on a random trip to Japan before they got divorced and how she wants to recreate it at her wedding. Obviously Kevin is going to say yes to that, how can you say no to a Pearson speech, especially when your a Pearson? All of Kevin's ex's seeing the news makes me worried that we will get some drama when an ex crashes the wedding. The first two looked happy, while Sophie looked wistful, like she's composing her own Pearson speech..

Loved having a Miguel centric episode, with special guest star Miguel's 70s hair. 

My first (snarky) thought was Madison wants it in the park ... so she can marry her dad????   I get it, the family, simplicity, etc., but it is an odd connection.😁

[Jeddah]

1 hour ago, Thumper said:

That was my thought too — it seemed the same reaction to seeing one’s daughter with a boy, alone, door closed.  But Tess would not see it that way, understandably.  

That’s what I thought from the scene itself, but then when Beth talked to her mother she did seem to be implying that she is uncomfortable with it. She can still help Tess get ready for dates and watch her get married, but Beth feels like it’s not the same. It definitely made me think Beth doesn’t think of Tess and Alex the same way as she would Tess and a boy.

[Trillian]

On 4/24/2021 at 11:43 PM, Jeddah said:

That’s what I thought from the scene itself, but then when Beth talked to her mother she did seem to be implying that she is uncomfortable with it. She can still help Tess get ready for dates and watch her get married, but Beth feels like it’s not the same. It definitely made me think Beth doesn’t think of Tess and Alex the same way as she would Tess and a boy.

Except it’s not the same. Our children’s sexuality is always hard to deal with, but even harder when it’s different from our own .  Like it or not, we subconsciously expect our children to be like us, only better versions of us (due to our superior parenting). I have a lesbian friend who was bitterly disappointed that her son turned out straight. She then developed a dream (which she never shared with him but did with me), that, if he had to be straight, he would at least become interested in her own friend’s lovely daughter (mine). I, too, would have liked that, except dear daughter turned out to be a lesbian. And so we all adjust our expectations yet again and learn to accept that our children are their own people and we take our joy in what they are and not what we expected them to be.  I can’t blame Beth for working through that and I think the show is dealing with the issue honestly.

[Jeddah]

44 minutes ago, Trillian said:

Except it’s not the same. Our children’s sexuality is always hard to deal with, but even harder when it’s different from our own .  Like it or not, we subconsciously expect our children to be like us, only better versions of us (due to our superior parenting). I have a lesbian friend who was bitterly disappointed that her son turned out straight. She then developed a dream (which she never shared with him but did with me), that, if he had to be straight, he would at least become interested in her own friend’s lovely daughter (mine). I, too, would have liked that, except dear daughter turned out to be a lesbian. And so we all adjust our expectations yet again and learn to accept that our children are their own people and we take our joy in what they are and not what we expected them to be.  I can’t blame Beth for working through that and I think the show is dealing with the issue honestly.

That’s definitely not true for everyone. I really can’t see how helping your daughter get ready for a date with a boy is different than helping her get ready for a date with a girl. I think most parents really do just want their kids to be happy. I live in the South, so it’s not like I live in some liberal bubble, but I know plenty of parents who accept their LGBT kids wholeheartedly and didn’t need time to get used to it. They don’t view their kid any differently now. They wouldn’t think twice about helping their kid get ready for a date. I would have thought that’s how Beth would be, and I’m disappointed the writers went in this direction instead.

[CrystalBlue]

32 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

That’s definitely not true for everyone. I really can’t see how helping your daughter get ready for a date with a boy is different than helping her get ready for a date with a girl. I think most parents really do just want their kids to be happy. I live in the South, so it’s not like I live in some liberal bubble, but I know plenty of parents who accept their LGBT kids wholeheartedly and didn’t need time to get used to it. They don’t view their kid any differently now. They wouldn’t think twice about helping their kid get ready for a date. I would have thought that’s how Beth would be, and I’m disappointed the writers went in this direction instead.

If I had a daughter getting ready for a date with another female, I wouldn't have to worry about the pregnancy talk.  I guess the sexually transmitted diseases and infections talk would technically still be valid.  Same thing with a gay boy dating another gay male.  No pregnancy talk but mention of condoms, etc.  Most kids who are going on a date know how to dress themselves so ... what's all this talk about getting your child ready for a date?

ETA: I love Beth and trust that if she were getting Tess ready for a date by helping her with her hair, she'd be focusing on the hairstyling and not the sexual preference/orientation of her daughter.

Edited April 28, 2021 by CrystalBlue
ETA sentence.