S02.E07: It's Best You Stop Digging

[Trini]

As Ryan's condition worsens, she questions Batwoman's "no killing" code when she realizes the opportunity to avenge her mother is slipping away. Tatiana (guest star Leah Gibson) fills in the gaps for Alice about her time on Coryana and her history with Ocean (guest star Nathan Owens).

Avi Youabian directed the episode written by Jerry Shandy.

Airdate: 3/14/2021

[scarynikki12]

Normally when a show or movie has an argument break out when time is of the essence I get annoyed. The rules change when driving the Batmobile is at stake. And Mary got to drive it! Next time Luke. 

In general the Arrowverse has done a good job of the drug induced flashback/vision episodes and I’m adding this one to the list.

The Desert Rose needs blood to bloom. Does it break into song too? And Coryana’s history is Themyscira’s evil twin.

So it’s really Tatiana who’s in love with Alice right? Her expression as she watched the make out session with Ocean was pretty telling. 

I’d really like to see Enigma and Edward Nygma hang out for a bit. Could be fun.

I was expecting Ryan’s confrontation with Alice to be in her head but it was real. Having a vision of her mom talking her down worked since Ryan isn’t really a killer no matter how strong her grief and anger. Plus she got a lead on Coryana and can get better. 

[appositival]

I wanted Luke to say to Ryan, "You called the cops, Right?". Isn't that what she asked him?

[BeautifulFlower]

I hope this is the last we see of Angelique. Seriously, she moved on FAST. Plus, Ryan's hallucination told her that her ex wasn't good. Please Ryan, I beg you to move on.

[Primal Slayer]

Listening to the Themiscrya rip off made me laugh a little. 

[Lantern7]

I know she' a villain, but it's hard not to emphasize with Alice. She goes through a ton of revelations from Safiyah's right hand lady, she's probably exhausted . . . and then an unhinged woman in her sister's fancy suit swings by to murder her.

I'm guessing the Kryptonite sickness is still with Ryan, and that everyone is going to Never Never Land (Demyscria?) for the next act of this season. Of course it's evolved to giving her full-on hallucinations. It is fun that Team Batwoman still doesn't have all their shit together. On the plus side, it did give Mary an excuse to drive the Batmobile.

1 hour ago, BeautifulFlower said:

I hope this is the last we see of Angelique. Seriously, she moved on FAST. Plus, Ryan's hallucination told her that her ex wasn't good. Please Ryan, I beg you to move on.

Also: Ryan was so close to Angelique's face, and she did not recognize her. Come on. I know there's a wig involved, but the suspension of disbelief needed borders on pure explusion.

[Primal Slayer]

Its kind of funny that such a big part of the season is built upon something from the Superman mythos (Kryptonite) and then a knock off of the WW mythos (Themiscrya) 

Im really glad this season isnt 22 episodes long, it's already feeling drawn out.

[cambridgeguy]

l hope Tatiana was lying about Safiyah being in love with Alice.  Not everything needs to be some sort of weird love triangle.

And Ryan had better hope Alice never stops by to visit Mary. 

[UnoAgain]

That was pretty coldblooded by safiyah... Turning Alice into Alice... Im guessing now she can't stop herself?... If not she shoulda tried harder to make ocean stay.. But just like blaming kate for not "feeling" her thru the door.. I guess in her head Ocean chose to leave when she threw out the " unless u have a reason for me to stay" BS.. Putting the onus on him... Shame

[possibilities]

Luke not wanting to get supplies for Mary was BS.

Making the whole Alice thing about some thwarted lesbian lust is MAJOR BS. I guess if we don't want to fall into the dead lesbian trope, we need to sub in the psychopathic lesbian trope. 

I'm getting to the point where I'm starting to wish this show had been cancelled.

[AnimeMania]

"I'm not bad, I'm just hypnotized that way"

[tennisgurl]

I am really hoping that Alice heading towards Coryana means that we are finally going to get answers and closure about Kate. I know that they basically have to keep her around in spirit for while, but I really hope that they can finally tell us what is happening soon, if for the characters if nothing else. Jacob desperately searching for Kate and talking about how hard it is not knowing what happened to her is just getting depressing, especially as we know Kate isn't coming back. 

So are they saying that Alice basically became Alice because she got brainwashed by her an angry island queen on evil Themyscira who had the hots for her and that's why she become a supervillain? I hope they aren't saying that her whole Alice persona and everything she did as Alice were all just due to her getting hypnotized, that seems like both a big retcon and an even bigger cop out. I am assuming that she mostly just removed the character growth she had when she fell for Ocean and decided to let go of vengeance, because if it turns out that Alice was basically just being mind controlled and had her personality manufactured, then what was even the point of anything that happened with her for the last season and a half? I am fine with the "learned to fight at a magical secret island" as it explains more of how Alice went from abused prisoner who is super into children's literature to supervillain and crime lord, but this just seems to be overly complicating things. If they also decide to give Alice some kind of redemption story, I worry that this will make everything too easy, taking away some of her personal responsibility. "Yeah she has killed countless people, but she was hypnotized, so its not that big of a deal!" It takes away from the tragedy of her character if someone else was really pulling her strings, that she became Alice not just because of her intense levels of trauma, bitterness, and inability to move past it, but because of some magic brain fucking. Alice was still pretty Alice even then, still on blaming her sister for not sensing her through the door in the cellar she was trapped in, but it seems like she was falling out of supervillainy until she got her head scrambled. I guess we will wait and see what this actually means, it might be more like this is just what Alice would be like without love and that this is really all still her, but we are getting a little too close to a major ret-con than I like, not to mention it making Alice a lot less interesting as a character. She is way more engaging as a deeply messed up person making terrible choices out of her own volition while obsessing over a fictional character that got her through her abusive childhood then someone who's whole villain persona was cooked up by a woman scored who was mad at her. 

Angelique really moves fast, doesn't she? I know that people not being able to tell who a superhero really is even while its pretty obvious is just a thing in superhero stories, but Angelique must be nearsighted to not be able to tell that Batwoman is clearly Ryan. I hope that when we finally get past looking for Kate and have more time, Ryan can find a real love interest. Angelique must have a whole past with Ryan, but she is clearly not worth the trouble anymore. 

Serious, will no one even talk about calling up Superman or Supergirl? Even if its just to say that Kate had all their contact info and they cant get ahold of them? Ryan's brain is being poisoned by kryptonite, I think its time to come up with new ideas beyond magical flowers. Between the dark Themyscira island and the kryptonite, why is this show so heavy on the non batman elements this season? Its like without Kate as our connection to Bruce, the show has started forgetting its even a Bat show. I think they need to establish more about Gotham, Gotham the city should be more of a character, for now it just seems like any big city with a high crime rate. It would make this feel more like a Batwoman show. 

Ryan finally gets to confront Alice, but before she can kill her the hallucination of her mom tells her that killing people for revenge is bad and she lets Alice go so we can finally figure out what happened to Kate. Not a bad use of hallucinations and its nice to see more of her relationship with her mom, and I do like that Alice has no clue who she is. Alice and her gang have killed a lot of random people, she cant be expected to remember everyone. I guess they feel like they have to let Alice go to see if she can find Kate, but I am with Luke on letting the known serial killer go. There are things between killing bad guys and letting them go on their merry way guys. 

So does Enigma have a cousin in Gotham named Edward Nygma?

[possibilities]

All Alice needed to heal was the love of a good man! But the evil lesbians hypnotized her to be evil because they were jealous that she loved a man instead of them! 

What a load of crap.

Also, it's all Sophie's fault that the map was destroyed. She should have offered a fake. Or made a copy. Take a fucking picture with your cell phone at least! And how do they know the ashes were the map, anyway? Has everyone turned stupid?

[TiffanyNichelle]

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

So are they saying that Alice basically became Alice because she got brainwashed by her an angry island queen on evil Themyscira who had the hots for her and that's why she become a supervillain? I hope they aren't saying that her whole Alice persona and everything she did as Alice were all just due to her getting hypnotized, that seems like both a big retcon and an even bigger cop out.

I really hope that isn't the case but that's how it feels. I don't know why they are working so hard to absolve Alice of everything. So what happens next, they reverse the brainwashing and she becomes good? Then you write her off the show, yes? I'm not a fan of this. Alice is who she is because of the trauma she went through as a child (including finding her mother's head in a freezer!) and not because some jealous lady brainwashed her.

[thuganomics85]

Shivaani Ghai definitely went into overacting territory with Safiyah's whole jilted, "You betrayed me!" spiel to Alice and Ocean.  Granted, it really is hard to sell these types of scenes anymore, because they've been so overdone at this point.  So, if Tatiana is to be believed, Safiyah actually "loved" Alice and this is why she got so upset over her betrayal, and wiped her and Ocean's memories.  It also might have messed with their minds and is the reason Alice is the way she is now.  Really hope that isn't the case, because I think it was much better when Alice was Alice simply due to her near death and capture instead of weird, magical island shenanigans.

Also, Coryana is totally a neighboring island to Themyscira, right?  Like they're the place full of weirdos that all of the Amazons in Themyscira know to avoid unless you want a ticket to the Crazy Train.

I guess Angelique never really cared for Ryan that much if she couldn't even recognize her face behind the batsuit despite being only inches apart.

Ryan and Alice have their first throw down that leads to Ryan getting the upper-hand (despite the whole Kryptonite handicap), but stops herself from killing Alice at least.  Instead, she secretly plants a tracker and hopes to follow her to Coryana.  I'm sure that will somehow backfire like these things always tend to do.

All of the Crow scenes were just different variations of Jacob being grumpy and Sophie making concerned faces.

I hope they wrap up the Coryana stuff soon and have a definite ending for the "What happened to Kate?" saga.

[Quark]

So Safiyah is the reason that Alice went blonde then.

Good episode, and I'm usually not a fan of flashback stuff.

Javicia Leslie really is a great actress. 

Loved the scene between Mary and Luke regarding the Batmobile.

 

[scarynikki12]

5 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I hope they aren't saying that her whole Alice persona and everything she did as Alice were all just due to her getting hypnotized, that seems like both a big retcon and an even bigger cop out. I am assuming that she mostly just removed the character growth she had when she fell for Ocean and decided to let go of vengeance, because if it turns out that Alice was basically just being mind controlled and had her personality manufactured, then what was even the point of anything that happened with her for the last season and a half?

I think they're going for Ocean providing another POV regarding Kate and Alice not only listens but internalizes what he says. Once she considered Kate's side her need for revenge lessened. When her memories of Ocean were erased, which include the romance but also the talk about Kate, all she was left with was her original revenge obsession and that's what led her to the Alice we first met.

I'm skeptical about Safiyah having feelings for Alice. Just because Tatiana said so doesn't make it true and, based on her expression in the flashback, I think a stronger case can be made that she was the one who was in love with Alice and punished her for being into Ocean instead. Given how protective Safiyah is about the Desert Rose I can see her losing her temper over the plan to steal it without any need for romantic involvement. We'll know soon enough but I'm not expecting a love confession to Alice.

6 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

If they also decide to give Alice some kind of redemption story, I worry that this will make everything too easy, taking away some of her personal responsibility.

I think we're seeing a sped up version of Alice's inevitable transformation from full on villain into anti-hero. We had that glimpse last season when she was helping Kate and I think they would have taken their time if Ruby were still here but she's not so this is them adjusting. We've already seen them do major alterations to accommodate losing Kate (the one and done Hush wearing Bruce's face, Alice suddenly valuing Mary as a sister, and walking in unaware after her henchmen killed Ryan's mom) so I think this is all part of that. Once the final pieces are in place for the general story they intend to tell with Ryan's Batwoman I expect it to go more smoothly.

[Twilight Man]

On 3/14/2021 at 9:00 PM, scarynikki12 said:

And Coryana’s history is Themyscira’s evil twin.

 

23 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

Listening to the Themiscrya rip off made me laugh a little. 

 

22 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

and then a knock off of the WW mythos (Themiscrya) 

 

22 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

and that everyone is going to Never Never Land (Demyscria?) for the next act of this season.

We are calling it "Dumb"myscria.   At least that is what my friends and I called Bana-Mighdall, that city out in the middle of Egypt that contained the Bana Amazons, the "Amazons with Attitude".  Among them was Grace,

(she's the girl who used to be on "Black Lightning" who was in love with Anissa)

and Artemis (the woman who briefly replaced Diana back in the 90s, you know, when everyone was getting replaced briefly).

That's right ---  DC Comics had a Themiscrya rip-off long before this.

[possibilities]

I just hope Alice never takes her boots off. How ever will they track her if she does?  

[immortalfrieza]

My reaction to the revelation that Alice and Ocean were hypnotized was simply dread. Please tell me they aren't going there. A redemption arc with Alice of all people? That would be like doing a redemption arc with The Joker! Alice has no redeeming qualities, she has never been anything other than a remorseless villain since the show started and now they're going to be like "oh, Alice was hypnotized, so it wasn't really her."

At least Ryan had a decent reason not to kill her this time thanks to putting a tracker in her. That's probably the smartest thing Ryan has done since becoming Batwoman.

[AnimeMania]

1 hour ago, possibilities said:

I just hope Alice never takes her boots off. How ever will they track her if she does?  

Interesting, because Alice said she had to go change before she could go meet the "Queen".

[Sweet Tooth]

5 hours ago, immortalfrieza said:

My reaction to the revelation that Alice and Ocean were hypnotized was simply dread. Please tell me they aren't going there. A redemption arc with Alice of all people? That would be like doing a redemption arc with The Joker! Alice has no redeeming qualities, she has never been anything other than a remorseless villain since the show started and now they're going to be like "oh, Alice was hypnotized, so it wasn't really her."

Here's the thing. If they want to keep this woman as a permanent part of the show, they can't just keep having people be in the same room with her and be unable to arrest or kill her. Kate is gone, so the whole arc they were going to do with Alice seeking revenge, is gone. There is no Kate. So, what would be her purpose?

The only thing they can do is do a redemption arc. The thing is, she's killed, like, everyone. I mean, she's killed more than one mom. 

There are some shows that lock up their villains, and then they drag them out every once in a while, when their "expertise" is needed. But they can't do that with a regular character.

Now, with all the weirdness, they could pull a timey-whimey, which is the only way I can see that she can possibly get redemption. We've gone too far at this point. Even if they find out she was hypnotized, nothing can be done about the string of dead bodies. And really, once she regains a conscience, how would she live with herself? 

So, I'm pretty positive this is leading to some kind of redemption, but I'll be damned if I know how they're going to pull it off.

 

[Chicago Redshirt]

7 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

Interesting, because Alice said she had to go change before she could go meet the "Queen".

She did change her outfit, but she could have kept the boots. After all, her boots were made for tracking.

🙂

[MissLucas]

Time to let go should really be the big motivational poster in the writers' room/various characters' bedrooms:

• time to let go of the whole 'Kate's still alive' plot.
• time to let go of the Crows
• time to let go of the Kryptonite poisoning plot, with every episode the fact that neither Luke nor Mary ever think of contacting Superman or Supergirl becomes more ridiculous
• time to let go of Coryana before it becomes another Lian Yu
• time to let go of Angelique
• time to let go of Alice (the evil lesbian retcon can't salvage the character), if they want to keep Rachel Skarsten (and I'm all for it) there are other time-honored options: identical twin (abducted by evil nurse), clone created by one of Catherine Hamilton's goons in order to stop Jacob from looking, etc.

Open questions: did Alice keep her boots on and how exactly did Ocean plan to start his own desert rose plantation when they need female blood to bloom?

Edited March 16, 2021 by MissLucas

[scarynikki12]

19 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

Open questions: did Alice keep her boots on and how exactly did Ocean plan to start his own desert rose plantation when they need female blood to bloom?

I’m assuming Alice always wears those boots and that’s how Ryan knew she could safely attach the tracker. That or Alice will discover the tracker but use it to her advantage next episode.

I think Ocean was planning on Alice joining him or doing like a CW vampire and get a supply of blood from a blood bank. 

[UnoAgain]

Still wish safiyah was ocean's mom.. That woulda been bonkers

[Trini]

6 hours ago, Sweet Tooth said:

So, I'm pretty positive this is leading to some kind of redemption, but I'll be damned if I know how they're going to pull it off.

Agreed with everything. Maybe this had a (slim) chance of working if Kate was still around, but we know she's not and won't be.

[Stardancer Supreme]

3 hours ago, UnoAgain said:

Still wish safiyah was ocean's mom.. That woulda been bonkers

Would have made sense in the storytelling!

So Ocean had a greenhouse full of those flowers that only needs female blood to bloom?  Did he know how to create them?  Ryan confronted Alice in a room full of Desert Roses and didn't even know it.  But noooo, we have to go to Coryana...  Ugh. The immediate solution to Ryan's Kryptonite poisoning is. right. there.

I hate being smarter than the show.

[AnimeMania]

27 minutes ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Would have made sense in the storytelling!

So Ocean had a greenhouse full of those flowers that only needs female blood to bloom?  Did he know how to create them?  Ryan confronted Alice in a room full of Desert Roses and didn't even know it.  But noooo, we have to go to Coryana...  Ugh. The immediate solution to Ryan's Kryptonite poisoning is. right. there.

I hate being smarter than the show.

Ocean is growing psychedelic mushrooms and mixing it with Scarecrow's fear toxin to make the drug SnakeBite. I am not even sure if Ocean remembers what a Desert Rose is.

[possibilities]

7 hours ago, MissLucas said:

how exactly did Ocean plan to start his own desert rose plantation when they need female blood to bloom?

I'm pretty sure Ocean can snag some babe and get her to bleed a little for him. Why he didn't want Alice to be The One, is a bigger question. It would have given a way to keep her on the show, as a Desert Rose farmer would have uses for lots of the plotlines going. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

8 hours ago, MissLucas said:

how exactly did Ocean plan to start his own desert rose plantation when they need female blood to bloom?

Did they explicitly say that they need female blood, or just blood. I thought there was a scene where Ocean fed a plant some of his own blood but I could have hallucinated that,

[MissLucas]

 

5 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Did they explicitly say that they need female blood, or just blood. 

Yes, 'only a woman's life force' were the words. Though I'm not sure if that referred to the origin myth of the desert rose only and Safiyah only dropped some blood on the buds for dramatic purposes.

[Stardancer Supreme]

On 3/14/2021 at 9:00 PM, scarynikki12 said:

Normally when a show or movie has an argument break out when time is of the essence I get annoyed. The rules change when driving the Batmobile is at stake. And Mary got to drive it! Next time Luke. 

That did annoy me because of the police helicopter right above them. Hijinks are cute at times, but it was irrational to expect the helicopter to just hover over you while you sloooooowly grab the city's vigilante and bicker over who drives what the hell away! I'm surprised they didn't start shooting.

[Chicago Redshirt]

6 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

That did annoy me because of the police helicopter right above them. Hijinks are cute at times, but it was irrational to expect the helicopter to just hover over you while you sloooooowly grab the city's vigilante and bicker over who drives what the hell away! I'm surprised they didn't start shooting.

I was sort of annoyed that the helicopter somehow spotted Batwoman in the first place. Like what possibly drew its  attention to where Our Heroes were and how did Our Heroes possibly shake them? I suppose there has to be some suspension of belief that in 2021 a police force that has access to a helicopter at a minimum and that anybody rich enough who has access to Arrowverse-style satellites or other technology/powers could not determine exactly where the Batmobile goes on its many journeys. 

[AnimeMania]

4 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

10 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

That did annoy me because of the police helicopter right above them. Hijinks are cute at times, but it was irrational to expect the helicopter to just hover over you while you sloooooowly grab the city's vigilante and bicker over who drives what the hell away! I'm surprised they didn't start shooting.

I was sort of annoyed that the helicopter somehow spotted Batwoman in the first place. Like what possibly drew its  attention to where Our Heroes were and how did Our Heroes possibly shake them? I suppose there has to be some suspension of belief that in 2021 a police force that has access to a helicopter at a minimum and that anybody rich enough who has access to Arrowverse-style satellites or other technology/powers could not determine exactly where the Batmobile goes on its many journeys. 

Was that helicopter from the Crows or the Gotham police force? I don't remember if they have ever shown what the Gotham police force is like? Maybe the Gotham police force are very pro-Batman/Batwoman. When they realized that these guys were helping Batwoman and not hurting her, they backed off.

I think helicopters are mainly used to observe and not for shooting at suspects.

Edited March 17, 2021 by AnimeMania

[Starry]

On 3/15/2021 at 2:23 AM, BeautifulFlower said:

I hope this is the last we see of Angelique. Seriously, she moved on FAST. Plus, Ryan's hallucination told her that her ex wasn't good. Please Ryan, I beg you to move on.

The only thing I like about Angelique is her hair. I enjoyed her and Ryan more when they were kids.

I want to love this show but they went for a convoluted storyline and I am not buying Alice's possible redemption arc. So if it hadn't been for Enigma doing her thing season 1 wouldn't have played out the way it did? That's a hard pill to swallow.

I thought Javicia sold Ryan's pain really well in her confrontation with Alice.

[Chicago Redshirt]

3 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

Was that helicopter from the Crows or the Gotham police force? I don't remember if they have ever shown what the Gotham police force is like? Maybe the Gotham police force are very pro-Batman/Batwoman. When they realized that these guys were helping Batwoman and not hurting her, they backed off.

I think helicopters are mainly used to observe and not for shooting at suspects.

They announced themselves as GCPD. 

I am just saying that it seems implausible that Batman/woman (let alone a first time driver like Mary) could ever shake a helicopter from tracking them once spotted. There's only so fast the Batmobile can go on city streets and only so many tricks it could employ. 

[Stardancer Supreme]

4 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

They announced themselves as GCPD. 

I am just saying that it seems implausible that Batman/woman (let alone a first time driver like Mary) could ever shake a helicopter from tracking them once spotted. There's only so fast the Batmobile can go on city streets and only so many tricks it could employ. 

AND Mary set off rocket launchers while thinking they were windshield wipers.  Sigh.  (So NO ONE thought to study the inside of the Batmobile once they got access to it? Ryan just automatically knows what button does what?  Why must this show strain my suspension of disbelief?)

Edited March 17, 2021 by Stardancer Supreme

[Loandbehold]

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I am just saying that it seems implausible that Batman/woman (let alone a first time driver like Mary) could ever shake a helicopter from tracking them once spotted. There's only so fast the Batmobile can go on city streets and only so many tricks it could employ.

I'm sure either Lucius or Luke figured out a way to equip the batmobile with some form of stealth technology. 

 

4 hours ago, Starry said:

I want to love this show but they went for a convoluted storyline and I am not buying Alice's possible redemption arc.

Due to how important Alice was to the first season and how popular her character (and especially the actress) is, they are trying to figure out any number of ways to keep her as one of the main characters on the show. We currently have the search for Kate, the Wonderland Gang killing Ryan's mother, she's Mary's step-sister and daughter of Jacob, her relationship with the (so far) main villain. They're going to keep throwing storylines against the wall to see if any stick.

[akg]

10 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I am just saying that it seems implausible that Batman/woman (let alone a first time driver like Mary) could ever shake a helicopter from tracking them once spotted. There's only so fast the Batmobile can go on city streets and only so many tricks it could employ. 

 I want to know whose SUV they were driving. They didn't even make an attempt to cover up the license plate.

[driver18]

I'm enjoying the show... and instead of assuming all the ways things won't work or how I think they (badly) will go, I'm just gonna keep enjoying the ride. It's been pretty good so far. Handling the departure of your name lead actor isn't easy, but I think this show is doing a great job. I'll judge their overall performance at the end of the season because it looks like there is a plan in place. I know Caroline Dries' work. She's never let me down.

Edited March 18, 2021 by driver18

[Cranberry]

I dunno, I feel like one could talk for at least two and a half hours about all the issues with Dries' previous show.

I've been liking this season for the most part, although I've had to suspend my disbelief a lot over all these connections (Sophie knows Ryan and Angelique, Angelique knows Ocean, Alice's gang killed Ryan's mom, Ryan was formerly kidnapped by a villain of the week, Kate Kane was so inspired by Ryan that she mentioned her in a letter to Bruce, and I'm sure there's more I'm forgetting). Retconning, though... that's something I hate. That's lazy writing. Alice had a perfectly good backstory with perfectly good motivations for becoming who she is. Chalking everything up to brainwashing cheapens all of that.

[appositival]

On 3/16/2021 at 5:36 AM, Sweet Tooth said:

So, I'm pretty positive this is leading to some kind of redemption, but I'll be damned if I know how they're going to pull it off.

Badly, knowing the CW.

[quarks]

Finally caught up on this, and some belated thoughts:

1. Yay, Mary got to drive the Batmobile! Nay, Mary....got into the Batmobile and drove off in full view of a Gotham police helicopter and shot off a couple of grenades and still apparently managed to get the Batmobile back to the Batcave without anyone following her and look, I know this is a comic book show and I have to suspend my disbelief, but do I have to suspend my disbelief this much?

2. Not loving the Evil Lesbians Brainwashed Me Because I Fell in Love with a Guy thing going on here, especially given that right in the middle of all this, Alice cheerfully reminded us that she found her mother's head in a refrigerator - reason enough to go evil right there without the brainwashing. Which is to say, whatever else could be said about Alice last season, the show at least inflicted her with enough trauma to explain her later actions - and given that this season seems intent on inflicting trauma on Ryan every single episode, that might have been an interesting contrast. 

Instead it's heading to, "Ryan good because not brainwashed, Alice bad because brainwashed," and yikes.

3. I gotta say, I loved that hoodie Angelique's new girlfriend was wearing. And loved how comparatively calm she was to find Batwoman chatting up her new girlfriend, and all, ok, sure I'll just leave my new girlfriend with Batwoman this will all be fine. That was hilarious. Angelique not recognizing Ryan, less hilarious, but I suppose I'm just going to have to live with this wow, the Bat mask really does conceal your identity, doesn't it?

4. And echoing everyone here - why the hell isn't anyone trying to contact Supergirl, Superman, the DEO or even Luthor Corp or Star Labs? Or even Palmer Tech or Queen Consolidated, for that matter? (I'm assuming that Phantom Oliver reversing Moira's death also probably means those companies are still alive.) All of these people/groups are relatively well known and some even are known for creating/releasing remarkable cures for various conditions. They know Kara has written about Batwoman and that Kara has also written articles about Supergirl; why not contact her and say that the new Batwoman needs help? 

Covid's not an excuse; all of this could be done with a line or two from Luke on "I've tried reaching Luthor Corp but they say they don't know anything about Kryptonite." No need for a crossover appearance - but just something to indicate that these people have tried to contact groups that might know something about Kryptonite.

5. And on that note - look, I realize Kryptonite has a rich and storied history of being whatever the comic writer needed it to be just then, changing colors at need, so Kryptonite working its way up to someone's brain and causing hallucinations is gloriously in that tradition, but....the Kryptonite travelling right up to Ryan's brain felt a Bit Much, and the Kryptonite then ONLY causing hallucinations and not, say, a stroke, felt even more a Bit Much. 

[possibilities]

26 minutes ago, quarks said:

Not loving the Evil Lesbians Brainwashed Me Because I Fell in Love with a Guy thing going on here, especially given that right in the middle of all this, Alice cheerfully reminded us that she found her mother's head in a refrigerator - reason enough to go evil right there without the brainwashing. Which is to say, whatever else could be said about Alice last season, the show at least inflicted her with enough trauma to explain her later actions - and given that this season seems intent on inflicting trauma on Ryan every single episode, that might have been an interesting contrast. 

Thank you. All of this. It's like they chose the least interesting and most insulting course possible.

[Stardancer Supreme]

On 3/23/2021 at 12:29 AM, quarks said:

Finally caught up on this, and some belated thoughts:

1. Yay, Mary got to drive the Batmobile! Nay, Mary....got into the Batmobile and drove off in full view of a Gotham police helicopter and shot off a couple of grenades and still apparently managed to get the Batmobile back to the Batcave without anyone following her and look, I know this is a comic book show and I have to suspend my disbelief, but do I have to suspend my disbelief this much?

3. I gotta say, I loved that hoodie Angelique's new girlfriend was wearing. And loved how comparatively calm she was to find Batwoman chatting up her new girlfriend, and all, ok, sure I'll just leave my new girlfriend with Batwoman this will all be fine. That was hilarious. Angelique not recognizing Ryan, less hilarious, but I suppose I'm just going to have to live with this wow, the Bat mask really does conceal your identity, doesn't it?

That is what drives me batty (pun intended). Yes, Gotham is a big city.  Yet here you are, chatting up the vigilante who knows your name, where you live, and that you don't drink. As crafty as Angelique is, I refuse to believe that she didn't look closely at this black woman and didn't think, "Huh, she reminds me of my former girlfriend".  She was quick enough to see that Batwoman was injured, much like the injury you noticed on your former girlfriend.  That makes me think that she never really cared about Ryan at all, considering she had another gal in the same robe Ryan wore not too long ago.

That also extends to Sophie! She's supposed to be a smart crow, right? She snagged Ryan right after the new Batwoman debuted.  She has a history with Ryan, right?  So why didn't she at least have a tiny suspicion about the identity of this new vigilante who used to be the love of her life?  So I just find out my lover was Batwoman; this new one isn't her. Yet she reminds me of that felon that just got out of prison I periodically keep tabs on... 

Sigh.

[possibilities]

I think we are meant to think the suit is magically marvelous camouflage. The same problem happens on Black Lightning, where it's OBVIOUS who it is, but no one has a clue. The show needs to come up with a conceit that allows viewers to recognize the actors, but keeps the characters oblivious.

[quarks]

I honestly miss the way Cat Grant (over on Supergirl) was immediately able to recognize everyone, masks and glasses or not. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 3/24/2021 at 2:46 PM, Stardancer Supreme said:

That is what drives me batty (pun intended). Yes, Gotham is a big city.  Yet here you are, chatting up the vigilante who knows your name, where you live, and that you don't drink. As crafty as Angelique is, I refuse to believe that she didn't look closely at this black woman and didn't think, "Huh, she reminds me of my former girlfriend".  She was quick enough to see that Batwoman was injured, much like the injury you noticed on your former girlfriend.  That makes me think that she never really cared about Ryan at all, considering she had another gal in the same robe Ryan wore not too long ago.

That also extends to Sophie! She's supposed to be a smart crow, right? She snagged Ryan right after the new Batwoman debuted.  She has a history with Ryan, right?  So why didn't she at least have a tiny suspicion about the identity of this new vigilante who used to be the love of her life?  So I just find out my lover was Batwoman; this new one isn't her. Yet she reminds me of that felon that just got out of prison I periodically keep tabs on... 

Sigh.

I think that we are just supposed to conclude that in some ways Angelique and Sophie are blind to basic things. In Angelique's case, she had sex with Ryan without noticing she had a nasty green glowing wound until the morning after. And Sophie didn't know that Kate was Batwoman despite having been close to Batwoman several times and having kissed her.

[John Potts]

I'm impressed that a hallucinating Batwoman managed to drive all the way across town without running into anything. And I'm pretty sure Mary is the better choice to drive the Batmobile than Luke - as a "Funtime Party Girl" she's probably driven more performance cars that Luke has.

Is Alice going to get a different (or at least, more complicated) backstory each Season? Season 1, she became who she was from being kidnapped and brought up by Mouse's dad. Now she's been to the Island of the evil Amazons (IotEA) and trained by the Queen (and her brother). Next Season - she knows Ra's al-Ghul? I suppose she is this Series' version of the Joker whose backstory is famously "multiple choice", but just how much backstory can she fit into the (15? 20?) years she's been missing? Mind you, I did like her "Sorry - am I supposed to know you?" to Batgirl, along with the "Yeah, well, I've killed a lot of folk's mothers - get in line." Let Evil be Evil!

On 3/15/2021 at 2:28 AM, Lantern7 said:

Ryan was so close to Angelique's face, and she did not recognize her. Come on. I know there's a wig involved, but the suspension of disbelief needed borders on pure explusion.

Sure, it is a DC staple (Clark Kent's glasses make him completely unrecognisable as Superman!) but I couldn't believe she didn't recognise Ryan there. She's the same height, ethnicity and body shape as your former girlfriend, knows details about your life and you can't figure out who she is!? At least (as @quarks said) Cat Grant could actually recognise somebody despite them wearing a wig and glasses!

 

Edited May 31, 2021 by John Potts