S01.E03: Do No Harm

[formerlyfreedom]

Grace hears Jonathan’s side of the story and finds herself being followed by someone close to Elena.

Airing Sunday, November 8, 2020.

[Chaos Theory]

Exactly how well did you know Elena Alvez?

 

And the plot thickens.  
 

I am really enjoying this.   Enough to watch it live on a Sunday.  And I am not usually a fan of HBO.   Anyway I though the scenes in the jail were all very good.  Especially when Grace brought the son (whose name I still can’t recall).   I am still loving Lilly Rabe in this.    And the two big reveals that dad gave Johnathan money and a lot of it while at the same time hiding it all from Grace.  And that Grace was in the vicinity of the murder around the time it happened.

“The only people we can place in the area around the time are you and your husband.”   
 

Grace definitely needs that muck Lawyer...and probably to stay away from the cops.   

Edited November 9, 2020 by Chaos Theory

[Norma Desmond]

So the theory that Grace might have these fugue states where she does things she does not rememeber after might be true... hmmmm.

 

The boy playing Grace and Hugh's son looks nothing like either of them. I wonder if it's intentional?

 

Elena's husband stalking Grace makes zero sense. I thought he was going to drop the baby with her.

 

 

[Kiss my mutt]

Henry looks like he had a growth spurt from last episode. He’s much taller and has a less boyish face. This plot has not only thickened I think it’s approaching a solid mass. 
The doctor whom Grace spoke really provided some interesting insight into Jonathan’s narcissism savior complex. I’ve seen that actor is so many things but can’t even name one off top of my head. 
I think Grace’s father and her lawyer friend know a lot more than they’re letting on. 
I hope they don’t use only a fugue state to explain it all away though. 
 

 

[Bulldog]

No offense to anyone who lives in NYC, but aren't murders kind of common place there?  Would this really be attracting this kind of media attention?  Or are we supposed to believe that this is one of those cases that just captures people's fascination like Betty Broderick or Jean Harris? 

For a reportedly successful therapist, Grace certainly seems to have a lot of free time on her hands. 

For a middle aged Brit, Johnathan seems to be able to handle himself in prison fairly well. 

Rosenbaum appears to be a very bad violin instructor. 

1 hour ago, Chaos Theory said:

 And the two big reveals that dad gave Johnathan money and a lot of it while at the same time hiding it all from Grace.

I didn't quite get this.  Dad said Johnathan told him that they would have to withdraw Henry from school without the money.  But in the first episode, we clearly saw Grace and Johnathan discussing that they weren't personally paying for Henry's tuition.  Yet, Grace acted surprised that Dad had given them the money.  Unless, Johnathan had used the tuition as an excuse to get money out of Dad, and Grace just thought Dad paid it out of the goodness of his heart. 

37 minutes ago, Kiss my mutt said:

The doctor whom Grace spoke really provided some interesting insight into Jonathan’s narcissism savior complex. I’ve seen that actor is so many things but can’t even name one off top of my head. 

I remember him from The Practice and an episode of Everybody Loves Raymond where everyone thought he might be Frank's illegitimate son.  Man, I'm old.    

Edited November 9, 2020 by Bulldog

[Miss Slay]

50 minutes ago, Norma Desmond said:

The boy playing Grace and Hugh's son looks nothing like either of them. I wonder if it's intentional?

 

I think they were aiming for a combo. He has dark hair like Hugh and curly hair like Nicole.

 

I still don't know who did it. But it's fun to guess.

[laprin]

10 minutes ago, Bulldog said:

No offense to anyone who lives in NYC, but aren't murders kind of common place there?  Would this really be attracting this kind of media attention?  Or are we supposed to believe that this is one of those cases that just captures people's fascination like Betty Broderick or Jean Harris?  

How many murders in NYC involve wealthy, well-respected doctors? The wealth and prominence of those involved is what made a case like Betty Broderick stand out. 

[Melina22]

I'm enjoying this enough that I got through the episode without fighting the urge to look at my phone, an increasingly rare occurrence. 

So they've dropped breadcrumbs hinting that almost every main character could be guilty. Even Grace's friend was giving Hugh some indecipherable looks in court. 

What kind of odd accent was Hugh's first lawyer using? I'm pretty sure he doesn't usually talk like that. 

Nicole's barely moving face is bothering me more and more as she's required to be increasingly emotional. Like when her dad started crying and her face was quite blank. What a contrast with Hugh's rugged and extremely mobile face. I've waved it away by telling myself that it's not unlikely that a society woman in her position would have had cosmetic work done. 

Would detectives really accost someone and ask questions in the middle of a museum? Did they have to pay admission? 😁

How many episodes to go? 

Edited November 9, 2020 by Melina22

[ECM1231]

2 hours ago, Kiss my mutt said:

doctor whom Grace spoke really provided some interesting insight into Jonathan’s narcissism savior complex. I’ve seen that actor is so many things but can’t even name one off top of my head. 

He was Dr. Taub on "House."

8 minutes ago, Melina22 said:

How many episodes to go? 

I think there is a total of 6, so 3 more.

[LoveLeigh]

I see endless posts about Nicole's hair after almost each episode. She has straight baby fine hair. I am fairly sure she is wearing a wig. 

And they certainly are making her look suspicious in many ways. All of them look shady. The fact that they showed Grace on the street in this episode 3 tells me she did not do it.  I still now think it was Elena's husband.

I actually hate these "mysteries" that are drawn out over weeks. There is something to be said about Amazon and Netflix who drop the entire series and let viewers binge watch. This weekly style is old, frustrating, and tiresome. I like to watch the last episode and know who did it and then back watch it. I think it is interesting to watch the lies and intrigue and detective work along the way if I know who is guilty. It's a great format for me. 

Edited November 9, 2020 by DakotaLavender
edited for clarity

[Kiss my mutt]

I always thought Nicole had naturally curly hair like she did when she first started making movies. Every show she’s been on with straight hair looks like a wig, like in Big Little Lies. 
A lot of her roles seem to require measured, lack of affect with her speech and “expressions” though the Botox and fillers are making her seem robotic. Her Australian accent always creeps into her voice when playing American roles. You would think she’d be better by now of course she may not even work with a voice coach. 
I don’t think I’ve ever seen Hugh Grant play an American that I can recall. 

Would private school cost $500,000? Or was that supposed to cover the entirety of tuition until graduation for the Alvez boy? I was surprised to learn Grace and Jonathan could afford tuition because earlier it was surmised they wouldn’t have made enough in their respective careers. 

Edited November 9, 2020 by Kiss my mutt

[kay1864]

2 hours ago, Bulldog said:

For a reportedly successful therapist, Grace certainly seems to have a lot of free time on her hands. 

 I noticed that too. Maybe that ties into the fugue state theory, which I had started to wonder about even before this episode.

3 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

And that Grace was in the vicinity of the murder around the time it happened.

So why oh why is her husband in jail instead of her? They said that was the only video evidence that was relevant. 

[buttersister]

Oy. So now we know why the detectives treat Grace as a suspect. Otoh, where's the camera that captured the front door of the studio? Oh, there wasn't one of those. 

I'm still too distracted by Nicole's inability to move her face. Heightened to almost laughable when she's in a scene with Donald or Hugh.  

[Melina22]

49 minutes ago, Kiss my mutt said:

I always thought Nicole had naturally curly hair like she did when she first started making movies. 

Me too. If you watch her very early Australian movies, made before she was famous, she had thick, curly, almost bushy red hair. And freckles. 

When I was young I had skin similar to Nicole's but without the freckles. The advantage is that when you're young, your pores are invisible and your skin looks flawless even without foundation. The disadvantage is it wrinkles easily and without lots of protection, sun damages very quickly. (Unless you're super rich apparently. I'm jealous, except for the part where parts of her face never move. It really spoils the crying scenes.) 

The degree to which I'm distracted by her hair and face tells me I would have enjoyed this show a lot more with someone more "normal" looking. But still glamorous of course. Nevertheless, I'm really looking forward to the next episode. 

[Razzberry]

Did they really need a helicopter to pick up Jonathan?  

More taxpayer waste - doctors with a Manhattan apartment shouldn't qualify for a public defender.

Khaki jailhouse threads are more fashionable than the orange.

Where did the half a million go?

The cops are very quick to dismiss the cuckholded husband as a suspect.  Lily Rabe was right, it IS always the husband.  He had more reason, though I was surprised to hear Jonathan admit she was threatening him,  giving himself a motive.

Love the peridot chenille coat.

 

 

[RedDelicious]

I think her hair is processed and she has a lot of extensions. Her natural state is a tight, almost kinky curl. See Thunder, Days of, 1990. 

I think the boy is good but his brown eyes throw me off.

  

[Mellowyellow]

Sooooo juicy!!! But so annoying that I have to wait three more weeks for this to resolve!!!

I don't get "frozen face" from Nicole. Grace is off. Nicole portrays that really well. She just reacts in a really weird way to things. I found her overly hostile towards the husband and then oddly detached when her father told her about the money he gave Jonathan.

Grace is very unstable, full of bad decisions and seems to be completely unaware of her surroundings sometimes. Nicole has nailed that perfectly. 

I found Grace really unlikeable in this episode but I don't think she did it. I've posted my speculation in the spec thread!

Loved the Muck Lawyer! She was awesome and her clarity was a refreshing contrast to the hot mess that is Grace.

[kay1864]

4 hours ago, Razzberry said:

Did they really need a helicopter to pick up Jonathan?  

 I wondered about that, but I think it’s because the cars were from Suffolk County (Long Island), whereas the helicopter was from NYPD 

[Chaos Theory]

I ignore  the “frozen face” comments.   First I don’t see it at all.  I think NK is a very good actress.  And second I think it is beyond cruel.   People (women especially) have work done for a lot of different reasons especially in Hollywood and NK is an older actress who still gets parts in Hollywood.  So who the hell cares if she had to nip and tuck?  I still prefer her over her idiot ex husband Tom Cruise who probably had work done himself.

Rant done.

Anywhoo I still like the weekly format.  There is something to be said for having to wait and think about a show.  It draws out the reveal.  

4 hours ago, Razzberry said:

More taxpayer waste - doctors with a Manhattan apartment shouldn't qualify for a public defender.

Khaki jailhouse threads are more fashionable than the orange.

Where did the half a million go?

 

Anyone can use a public defender.  It’s written Into law.   Plus The Manhattan apartment was a marital asset more then likely and Grace was under no obligation to part with it not to mention most of the money.   She had hire him and attorney which she didn’t at first.  Plus I might be wrong but the public defender asked him a few questions about his assets   He had none that were his own.

And it was never said out loud but Johnathin has a sick illegitimate daughter.  I am guessing the money to get care.

 

Edited November 9, 2020 by Chaos Theory

[Mackey]

I’ve not once, not for one second, thought about or noticed anything “frozen” about Kidman’s face. I have thought about daddy’s money and how telling daughter he gave it to husband would have affected whether or not there was a murder. 

[Bluesky]

7 hours ago, buttersister said:

I'm still too distracted by Nicole's inability to move her face. Heightened to almost laughable when she's in a scene with Donald or Hugh.  

I can’t stop looking at that line on both sides of her mouth.  It makes her look like a puppet at times. 
 

her face really is a problem. Is she supposed to be blank looking or not?

[aghst]

9 hours ago, laprin said:

How many murders in NYC involve wealthy, well-respected doctors? The wealth and prominence of those involved is what made a case like Betty Broderick stand out. 

Exactly.

It would probably be national or international news because the couple relatively high profile,  cancer doctor and a therapist with rich clients.

Plus the salacious details, the guy has an affair, gets the woman pregnant, is accused of killing her.  Now the wife is getting him a high powered defense lawyer?

 

[aghst]

BTW, the little girl in the opening credits is suppose to be young Grace?  She’s being stimulated by a rich environment, beautiful plants, a snow gloves, blowing bubbles in what looks like a designer perfume ad.

Did little Grace have a rich dream life.  So the song and the sequence are suppose to be ironic given her current predicament?  Suddenly the bubble has burst for her?  She shouldn’t have any money problems but her perfect life is shattered now?

[Rickster]

I thought for an actor as good as Donald Sutherland, his emotions in the scene with Nicole about the money seemed suspiciously faked.

[Melina22]

1 hour ago, Chaos Theory said:

And it was never said out loud but Johnathin has a sick illegitimate daughter.  I am guessing the money to get care.

Wasn't it the son who was sick? 

As for the frozen face comments, I think it's similar to when actors use accents. My husband is oblivious to whether or not an actor's accent is accurate to the point he probably thought Kevin Costner in Robin Hood was just fine. But I'm exquisitely sensitive to accents. A bad one wrecks a movie for me. I'm the same with "frozen face" or "uncanny valley" on an actor or actress. My husband, again, is oblivious, but I'm very sensitive to it, and I really struggle to ignore it. I've stopped watching many shows because of it. 

In my opinion, no one is right or wrong about this. It's just how our brains are wired. 

I agree with the above poster that Grace's father's emotions seemed off. Then again, Donald Sutherland always seems a little shady to me, in all his roles. 

Finally, interesting point above that Grace is SUPPOSED to have an odd, flat affect. But I feel like she didn't at all before the murder. Watching this show is an endless game of "Shady behaviour or bad acting?" I guess we'll find out soon. 

[Ashforth]

10 hours ago, Bulldog said:

No offense to anyone who lives in NYC, but aren't murders kind of common place there?  Would this really be attracting this kind of media attention?  Or are we supposed to believe that this is one of those cases that just captures people's fascination like Betty Broderick or Jean Harris? 

For a reportedly successful therapist, Grace certainly seems to have a lot of free time on her hands. 

For a middle aged Brit, Johnathan seems to be able to handle himself in prison fairly well. 

Rosenbaum appears to be a very bad violin instructor. 

I didn't quite get this.  Dad said Johnathan told him that they would have to withdraw Henry from school without the money.  But in the first episode, we clearly saw Grace and Johnathan discussing that they weren't personally paying for Henry's tuition.  Yet, Grace acted surprised that Dad had given them the money.  Unless, Johnathan had used the tuition as an excuse to get money out of Dad, and Grace just thought Dad paid it out of the goodness of his heart. 

I remember him from The Practice and an episode of Everybody Loves Raymond where everyone thought he might be Frank's illegitimate son.  Man, I'm old.    

At the auction planning meeting in the first episode, they mentioned that there had been a Vanity Fair article about Jonathan. So yeah, a well known, socially connected doctor who had an affair that cost him his job (which the press would have quickly found out) and resulted in a child (which may not be public but anyone can connect the dots)  with a beautiful young woman found bludgeoned to death in her art studio would be a hot, hot topic. 

Which leads me to... public defender? Even if Jonathan has no money, there would be plenty of hotshot criminal defense attorneys vying to represent him, if only for the chance to be on TV all the time. 

It would surprise me if Grace's patients weren't canceling their appointments left and right.

And speaking of money: yes, it was clearly stated in ep 1 that Daddy was paying Henry's tuition at $50K/year, so it would make no sense for Jonathan to tell him that they might have to take him out of school due to lack of funds. And why $500K? What happened to it? Elena didn't seem like someone who had just come into a windfall. 

And what of Grace's casual mention to Daddy that Jonathan had emptied their bank accounts? When? When did she find that out? She didn't even seem very concerned about it. What happened to that money?

8 hours ago, kay1864 said:

 I noticed that too. Maybe that ties into the fugue state theory, which I had started to wonder about even before this episode.

I wasn't on board with the fugue state/amnesia theory, but now maybe. Or maybe not. She seemed bewildered and shocked to see the video, but at the same time, immediately said that she takes walks! Walks all the time, and apparently all over the city, far from her tony neighborhood.

6 hours ago, Razzberry said:

Did they really need a helicopter to pick up Jonathan?  

That was ridiculous. They would drive. It would be totally unsafe for a helicopter to land in that little yard - no need for that risk. Then the detectives stayed behind while the fugitive murder suspect flies away with a couple of patrol officers.

Oh, show, don't make me nitpick you. I have liked you so much, I want to keep liking you. Help me to like you.

[heatherchandler]

 

11 hours ago, kay1864 said:

 Oh geez, not even close. This actor is Jason Kravitz. Peter Jacobson played Taub on House.

 

I thought it was Taub too, but when I saw what Taub looks like now, I realized it is not.  

 

 

4 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

I ignore  the “frozen face” comments.   First I don’t see it at all.  I think NK is a very good actress.  And second I think it is beyond cruel.   People (women especially) have work done for a lot of different reasons especially in Hollywood and NK is an older actress who still gets parts in Hollywood.  So who the hell cares if she had to nip and tuck?  I still prefer her over her idiot ex husband Tom Cruise who probably had work done himself.

 

And it was never said out loud but Johnathin has a sick illegitimate daughter.  I am guessing the money to get care.

 

 

I don't begrudge people having plastic surgery, I have had work done.  That being said, when you get so much work done that you can't properly close your mouth without difficulty, it is f-ed up.  She has had so much botox, it appears her mouth HANGS OPEN.  You can see her scrunch it up when she needs to close it.  It reminds me of when I have a cold and have to keep my mouth open to breathe, but opposite.  I think she is probably spending a lot of time worrying about how her mouth looks.  It is all I can see when they show her.

  

The daughter isn't sick, unless there is something we don't know.

 

2 hours ago, Ashforth said:

 

Which leads me to... public defender? Even if Jonathan has no money, there would be plenty of hotshot criminal defense attorneys vying to represent him, if only for the chance to be on TV all the time. 

 

I wasn't on board with the fugue state/amnesia theory, but now maybe. Or maybe not. She seemed bewildered and shocked to see the video, but at the same time, immediately said that she takes walks! Walks all the time, and apparently all over the city, far from her tony neighborhood.

That was ridiculous. They would drive. It would be totally unsafe for a helicopter to land in that little yard - no need for that risk. Then the detectives stayed behind while the fugitive murder suspect flies away with a couple of patrol officers.

Oh, show, don't make me nitpick you. I have liked you so much, I want to keep liking you. Help me to like you.

Some hotshot criminal lawyers will represent in a high profile case and ask for the rights to the story as payment, like Jose Baez did for Casey Anthony.  He probably made more off his book than he would have if he just billed her, and like you said, the chance to be on tv is big for lawyers like that.

The public defender sounded vaguely Irish at first, then it changed to New York.

The accents and acting is all of the place on this show... Donald Sutherland's weird fake crying... maybe that was intentional?

I swear if this is some BS fugue state murder, I will not be happy.  I just read a book where that was the ending I was mad.  I thought it came out recently that fugue states aren't even a thing?  I thought I read that.

I like this show too, or, I WANT to like it.  I wish there were less plot holes.  The writing is bad.

 

12 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

I see endless posts about Nicole's hair after almost each episode. She has straight baby fine hair. I am fairly sure she is wearing a wig. 

 

No!  

This is her in younger days with her original hair.  And original face.  

Edited November 9, 2020 by heatherchandler

[RedDelicious]

Regarding the topic of frozen face, to me the way she looks is very on-brand for your typical wealthy UES woman.  I think the character's at times flat affect and weird facial expressions come from being in a perpetual state of shock.  The hits just keep coming.  At the same time I feel like she has to turn herself back on when she's dealing with the detectives, because in her mind she thinks she can beat them at their own game and figure out who really did what and when.  I know I said it before but I'm just so grateful to have a good show to watch on Sunday nights!

[Robert Lynch]

The one playing the son is from A Quiet Place and Ford VS Ferrari. I think Noah Jupe is his name! 

[Bulldog]

1 hour ago, heatherchandler said:

The daughter isn't sick, unless there is something we don't know.

 

4 hours ago, kay1864 said:

I missed that she was sick. Where was that?

 

4 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

And it was never said out loud but Johnathin has a sick illegitimate daughter.  I am guessing the money to get care.

 

 

2 hours ago, Melina22 said:

Wasn't it the son who was sick? 

The son was the one who had cancer and was Johnathan's patient.

I think people are discussing the daughter being sick from when Elena's husband confronted Grace.  He told Grace that he heard she had been asking about the baby and Grace replied that she had heard that she was sick (or she might have said not well).   I took it to mean she heard that she might have the type of thing most kids that age get and not something major, like cancer.  

Edited November 9, 2020 by Bulldog

[iMonrey]

Quote

How many murders in NYC involve wealthy, well-respected doctors? The wealth and prominence of those involved is what made a case like Betty Broderick stand out. 

Yeah Nancy Grace would be all over this shit. Given the media coverage, though, it really bugs me that Grace is walking around town with that wild hair flowing freely. She's instantly recognizable and she'd be mobbed by the press wherever she goes. You'd think she'd be wearing a scarf and sunglasses whenever she goes outside, right? I'm also bugged by how willfully naive she's being not getting herself an attorney.

Quote

I actually hate these "mysteries" that are drawn out over weeks. There is something to be said about Amazon and Netflix who drop the entire series and let viewers binge watch. This weekly style is old, frustrating, and tiresome. I like to watch the last episode and know who did it and then back watch it. I think it is interesting to watch the lies and intrigue and detective work along the way if I know who is guilty. It's a great format for me. 

Counterpoint: episodes dropped weekly allow for greater inspection and discussion. When you just move past one to the next it's in one ear and out the other. Binging does not lend itself to retention. Shows I binge I completely forget about by the time the next season drops. Then I have to watch them all over again. I think we're just spoiled by the streaming platform now. And sure, mysteries in particular are more tantalizing when you have to wait a week for a new episode. But I still like the old-school method of TV watching. There's really no point in having individual episode threads in forums like this when everyone binges a show at once.

[BingeyKohan]

What are folks' thoughts on the timeline of the night Elena died? Jonathan leaves the fund-raiser to go meet Elena at her studio, they fight and have sex, he leaves. Is this when he goes home and cries and has sex with Grace, then when he leaves early in the morning (after saying goodbye to Henry) that's when goes back to Elena's studio and finds her dead, before disappearing for his faux Cleveland trip?

At what point then did Grace talk her suspicious walk from the Upper East Side up to Harlem? It would have had to have been a time when Jonathan wouldn't have missed her so most likely it was when he was also in Harlem, with Elena the first time around. So if Jonathan is telling the truth and he left Elena alive (and went home) then that's also the only time when Grace could have been out zombie walking ... so Jonathan is also kind of her alibi, and she hadn't been in bed that long by the time he joined her?

[kay1864]

3 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Quote

How many murders in NYC involve wealthy, well-respected doctors? The wealth and prominence of those involved is what made a case like Betty Broderick stand out. 

Yeah Nancy Grace would be all over this shit.

 I don’t think you can have “well-respected” and “Nancy Grace” this close together in a post 😆

[DoubleUTeeEff]

11 hours ago, kay1864 said:

So why oh why is her husband in jail instead of her? They said that was the only video evidence that was relevant. 

Because his DNA is at the crime scene and Grace's isn't? I know they got his DNA from the hairbrush at their place with the search warrant, not sure if they collected Grace's DNA at the same time or not. Plus, it's a very violent crime which is usually an indication that a male committed it. Not that I'm ruling anyone out!

One of the most suspicious behaviors out of this episode to me was Grace's father going the victim's place and watching her husband and the baby through the window. Why? Doesn't seem like something one would do even if they found out they had a secret granddaughter and their son-in-law murdered her mother. Was Jonathan blackmailing Grace's father hence the 500,000? That's a lot of money, more than you would think is necessary to get your finances in order even if you are living in NYC and paying for private school. I mean as far as anyone knew, both Grace and Jonathan had well paying jobs too.

[kay1864]

Seeing the “previously on” at the ep beginning reminded me:

Why was Elena so flirtatious with Grace? At the auction-planning meeting, I didn’t get the vibe that she was flaunting the baby, but rather a sexual come-on, similar to the elevator, or even the locker room.

 Is there more to the Elena-Grace relationship then we’ve been led to believe?

4 hours ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

Was Jonathan blackmailing Grace's father hence the 500,000?

 Excellent question! One that Grace should pose next time she sees Jonathan.

4 hours ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

Because his DNA is at the crime scene and Grace's isn't? 

Pretty sure they didn’t have the DNA results before they arrested him.  Although tbh we don’t know how long he was missing. I think only a day or two elapsed before she went to the beach house.  But they were ready to arrest him before that.

 And the elephant in the room:

HOW MANY PEOPLE NEED TO TELL GRACE TO GET AN EFFING LAWYER?

 

[DoubleUTeeEff]

8 minutes ago, kay1864 said:

Pretty sure they didn’t have the DNA results before they arrested him.

They were at the beach house when Jonathan was arrested. Wasn't that when the detective told Grace that Jonathan was the father?

18 minutes ago, kay1864 said:

But they were ready to arrest him before that.

OK. I thought they were just looking for him because they obviously needed to question him but were not necessarily ready to arrest him. They did arrest the husband, right? Or did they just detain him while they checked out his alibi? Either way, they sure work fast!

[Darian]

3 hours ago, Rickster said:

I thought for an actor as good as Donald Sutherland, his emotions in the scene with Nicole about the money seemed suspiciously faked.

I thought that's what he was going for, because it made me suspicious of him, but not sure I should be, and I think it also unsettled Grace. Could be a red herring, but it added to the WTFedness of the plot for me. 

Noah Jupe, on the other hand, ripped my heart out of my chest and jumped up and down on it. 

[Ashforth]

56 minutes ago, Bulldog said:

I think people are discussing the daughter being sick from when Elena's husband confronted Grace.  He told Grace that he heard she had been asking about the baby and Grace replied that she had heard that she was sick (or she might have said not well).   I took it to mean she heard that she might have the type of thing most kids that age get and not something major, like cancer.  

He said that he had heard she was asking about Elena. That's when Grace said she'd heard Elena was not well and asked about her mental health history.

43 minutes ago, BingeyKohan said:

What are folks' thoughts on the timeline of the night Elena died? Jonathan leaves the fund-raiser to go meet Elena at her studio, they fight and have sex, he leaves. Is this when he goes home and cries and has sex with Grace, then when he leaves early in the morning (after saying goodbye to Henry) that's when goes back to Elena's studio and finds her dead, before disappearing for his faux Cleveland trip?

At what point then did Grace talk her suspicious walk from the Upper East Side up to Harlem? It would have had to have been a time when Jonathan wouldn't have missed her so most likely it was when he was also in Harlem, with Elena the first time around. So if Jonathan is telling the truth and he left Elena alive (and went home) then that's also the only time when Grace could have been out zombie walking ... so Jonathan is also kind of her alibi, and she hadn't been in bed that long by the time he joined her?

Jonathan didn't say that he went straight home, he claimed that he went to Elena's studio where they fought and had sex, then he left and walked around (these folks do a lot of that, right?), went to a bar and then back to the studio where he discovered Elena's dead body. If that's true, whoever killed her did it after he left and before he went back.

The police told Grace that she was caught on camera around the time of the murder, and she was the only person in the video from that time frame. Doesn't mean it's true.

I had almost forgotten about Daddy going to the Alves home! WTF. He seemed to know right where it was...

Edited November 9, 2020 by Ashforth

[BingeyKohan]

3 minutes ago, Ashforth said:

Jonathan didn't say that he went straight home, he claimed that he went to Elena's studio where they fought and had sex, then he left and walked around (these folks do a lot of that, right?), went to a bar and then back to the studio where he discovered Elena's dead body. If that's true, whoever killed her did it after he left and before he went back.

The police told Grace that she was caught on camera around the time of the murder, and she was the only person in the video from that time frame.

I see. So Grace's real opportunity was while Jonathan was (allegedly) walking around and/or at the bar - so if you follow the theory she must have seen him there and seen him leave, otherwise the coincidences pile up too much. It just seems like Jonathan and Grace conveniently kept missing each other - she found the window of time he wasn't at the studio and he found the window of time she wasn't there to go back and find Elena dead, then they both wound up in their bed afterward in a way that made neither of them immediately suspicious of the other? Clearly it didn't go down quite like that but at this point that's what we're supposed to think?

[eclectcmoi]

40 minutes ago, kay1864 said:

Seeing the “previously on” at the ep beginning reminded me:

Why was Elena so flirtatious with Grace? At the auction-planning meeting, I didn’t get the vibe that she was flaunting the baby, but rather a sexual come-on, similar to the elevator, or even the locker room.

 Is there more to the Elena-Grace relationship then we’ve been led to believe?

 Excellent question! One that Grace should pose next time she sees Jonathan.

Yes... Right from the first meeting, Elena was noticeably interested in Grace and to me, not just because that was her lover's wife.  She seemed fascinated and mesmerized by Grace and that grew with each interaction. That seems to give some credibility to Jonathan's claim that Elena was obsessive. 

I'm finding Nicole/Grace's hair very distracting.  In a lot of scenes that's all I see is her hair.  I was glad to see she has a couple of other coats to wear though other than just the green one.

Does Elena's husband only push the baby around all day in that pink pram? 

[Bulldog]

14 minutes ago, eclectcmoi said:

Does Elena's husband only push the baby around all day in that pink pram? 

Ha!  That certainly seems to be the case. 

Of course, Grace seems to spend A LOT of time just wandering the streets of NYC.  No wonder they seem to cross paths so often. 

[DangerousMinds]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

Yeah Nancy Grace would be all over this shit. Given the media coverage, though, it really bugs me that Grace is walking around town with that wild hair flowing freely. She's instantly recognizable and she'd be mobbed by the press wherever she goes. You'd think she'd be wearing a scarf and sunglasses whenever she goes outside, right? I'm also bugged by how willfully naive she's being not getting herself an attorney.

Counterpoint: episodes dropped weekly allow for greater inspection and discussion. When you just move past one to the next it's in one ear and out the other. Binging does not lend itself to retention. Shows I binge I completely forget about by the time the next season drops. Then I have to watch them all over again. I think we're just spoiled by the streaming platform now. And sure, mysteries in particular are more tantalizing when you have to wait a week for a new episode. But I still like the old-school method of TV watching. There's really no point in having individual episode threads in forums like this when everyone binges a show at once.

Yes, this is the traditional method of releasing shows, one per week. It is much better for our conversations here! But if you want to binge watch, just wait until all of the shows have aired and do it that way 🤷‍♀️.

[Quita]

4 hours ago, Bluesky said:

I can’t stop looking at that line on both sides of her mouth.  It makes her look like a puppet at times. 

Yes! That's what it is for me, those lines! It gives her mouth a joker effect.

2 hours ago, heatherchandler said:

I swear if this is some BS fugue state murder, I will not be happy.  I just read a book where that was the ending I was mad.  I thought it came out recently that fugue states aren't even a thing?  I thought I read that.

You should google Hannah Emily Upp, a NY teacher who went into a fugue state and was missing for three weeks before she was found in NY harbor. Then it happened again. It's very interesting.

I'm curious what happens to the baby. Does she stay with Mr. Alvez who isn't the father? Would Grace get her while Jonathan is in prison, not that she wants her? Will Henry know his half-sister?

[Razzberry]

It's just way too soon to be arraigning anybody, but with David Kelley I gotta overlook things like that.  Their video showing Grace on the same block wasn't exactly damning evidence, but it made me laugh.

[kay1864]

4 hours ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

Wasn't that when the detective told Grace that Jonathan was the father?

 Oops, my bad. Wrong DNA results. I keep thinking it’s “place him at the scene of the crime” rather than “paternity”. Even though the detective actually used the word “paternity“.  D’oh!

4 hours ago, Ashforth said:

he claimed that he went to Elena's studio where they fought and had sex

I think that’s the conclusion, but when he first said it I thought he meant he confronted her (and had sex) at the auction party.  Did he actually say the studio?

Not that there was anywhere else available. Certainly no bathrooms  available at that massive penthouse 😆

[heatherchandler]

1 hour ago, Ashforth said:

He said that he had heard she was asking about Elena. That's when Grace said she'd heard Elena was not well and asked about her mental health history.

Jonathan didn't say that he went straight home, he claimed that he went to Elena's studio where they fought and had sex, then he left and walked around (these folks do a lot of that, right?), went to a bar and then back to the studio where he discovered Elena's dead body. If that's true, whoever killed her did it after he left and before he went back.

The police told Grace that she was caught on camera around the time of the murder, and she was the only person in the video from that time frame. Doesn't mean it's true.

I had almost forgotten about Daddy going to the Alves home! WTF. He seemed to know right where it was...

Wasn't Elena's husband skulking around Elena's studio on that night?  Didn't they show him (possibly with baby pram) standing outside the studio and listening/watching Jonathan and Elena have sex??  Was that supposed to be on the night of the murder?  Wouldn't they have him on video too?  Did they say if he had an alibi?  I would think that would muck up the case for Jonathan as the killer.

[Melina22]

3 hours ago, heatherchandler said:

I swear if this is some BS fugue state murder, I will not be happy.  I just read a book where that was the ending I was mad.  I thought it came out recently that fugue states aren't even a thing?  I thought I read that.

Yes! I heartily cosign this 

[BingeyKohan]

20 minutes ago, heatherchandler said:

Wasn't Elena's husband skulking around Elena's studio on that night?  Didn't they show him (possibly with baby pram) standing outside the studio and listening/watching Jonathan and Elena have sex??  Was that supposed to be on the night of the murder?  Wouldn't they have him on video too?  Did they say if he had an alibi?  I would think that would muck up the case for Jonathan as the killer.

My take was this was more of Grace's little flights of fancy where she imagines how things COULD have gone down but doesn't necessarily imply it's how things DID go down. Like the hammer to Elena's head vision. 

ETA: I am not much of a fan of that narrative device but I think that's what they're up to there.

Edited November 9, 2020 by BingeyKohan

[buttersister]

Quote

Wasn't Elena's husband skulking around Elena's studio on that night?

I only remember a random shot of him in bed around that time, alone, awake, propped up and staring. My first thought was, You Did It. After that, it was, I wonder where my wife is? Now I'm wondering what Donald Sutherland is up to.

[kay1864]

4 hours ago, heatherchandler said:

I thought it came out recently that fugue states aren't even a thing?

 Next you’ll be saying that about evil twins!

😭😭😭😭😭😭

 

Edited November 9, 2020 by kay1864