S01.E04: A History of Violence

[paigow]

After Christina shows up at her doorstep, Leti confronts Atticus about his plan to surreptitiously return to Florida; in search of missing pages to a crucial text, Leti, Tic and Montrose head to Boston, with Hippolyta and Diana along for the ride.

Airdate: Sep 06 / 20

[Clawdette]

Yikes!  That made me jump. 

[peridot]

I loved that little boy who kept shushing them in the library, he even slammed his book onto the table in disgust!

Tic needs to get it together.  He didn't tell Leti about the shadiness around her house, and he was just going to leave town without a word.  I'm glad Leti ripped into him about his self-centeredness.  She was the one who died because of this crap.

I feel bad for Ruby, she tried so hard to get a job at that place, only to have it given to another, thinner black woman.  Now that people are saying that William = Christina, I'm really not sure how to feel about that hookup.  I'm surprised Ruby didn't say anything about that snake scarification on his chest.  That would definitely turn me off.

How strange that the tunnel landed them back in Chicago.  I'm worried about Hippolyta now.

[harrisonjames]

I just knew Hippolyta stole the orrery. I wonder why she did though. And, now, Christina wants it. I wonder what will come from that.

Those of you who are saying that Willam and Christina are one in the same I wonder what that means for Ruby. 

[Indigo Luna]

Noticed they only bring around the Marilyn Manson songs when the white people seem to be up to no good. I worry about Ruby being near discount Alex Skarsgard. 

Ugh I love this show. Last week was my fav episode but this one topped it. I hope it keeps this momentum every week because its so good! 

Edited September 7, 2020 by Indigo Luna

[Scarlett45]

39 minutes ago, peridot said:

I feel bad for Ruby, she tried so hard to get a job at that place, only to have it given to another, thinner black woman. 

My great aunt (born 1928) who was our nanny, when she was a young woman she wanted to be a switch board operator- they told her bad enough she was a colored girl, but a heavy set one wouldn’t do. A switch board operator. No one sees you. Damn. 
 

A Leti type would be hired at Marshall Fields before Ruby, and they would only hire one. I get why she was depressed. Side note the actress is so beautiful and her skin just glows. 

[Scarlett45]

Y’all know me by now. Let’s have a moment for when Jonathan Majors took his shirt off. 

[Robert Lynch]

I am getting Oprah Winfrey vibes from Ruby. She keeps reminding of Sofia from The Color Purpose in some way.

[paigow]

So some time between the War of 1812 & The Civil War...Titus Bezos Musk built a HYPERLOOP tunnel from Chicago to Boston that you can walk in 3 hours. That can only be used once unless the disappearing plank is an illusion.

[DearEvette]

I like how each episode of the show so far has a different thematic feel.  The first episode was a nod nostalgic drama, the second episode was a nod to gothic horror, the third episode was a nod to the haunted house narrative, and now this was a nod to the matinee adventure story (Indiana Jones, Goonies, King Solomon Mines etc.).  That vault in Boston with the elevator that leads to her house in Chicago was a really cool surprise.

Color me shocked when Ruby and Mr. Alabaster got it on.  I am slowly coming round to the idea that he and Christina are the same person.  Because I still don't think we've seen them in a scene together.  I am impatient for the show to delve more into Ruby's story.  It is doing a great job of showing vs. telling us that some of her bitterness with her lack of advancement and some of her resentment toward Leti has to do with colorism.  The show isn't saying anything explicit, but I feel that it is hanging all over the subtext and the things that are not being said. 

I don't understand what the hell is going on with Montrose.  Does he really think he is protecting Tic by sabotaging him?  Since when is keeping people in the dark and not telling them important things protects them?  It is a recipe for a blindside.

Good episode with a lot of fun suspenseful moments.

[paigow]

1 minute ago, DearEvette said:

Since when is keeping people in the dark and not telling them important things protects them?  It is a recipe for...  

7 years of The Blacklist...

[LoveLeigh]

Each episode somewhat reminds me of American Horror Story. 

[Afwife1992]

41 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

A Leti type would be hired at Marshall Fields before Ruby, and they would only hire one. I get why she was depressed. Side note the actress is so beautiful and her skin just glows. 

The actress really is gorgeous and, being of a more Rubenesque figure myself, I love the way she dresses and carries herself. Her skin definitely is beautiful as are her eyes. Something about her reminds me of Octavia Spencer though I can't quite put my finger on it. Maybe they need to play sisters in a movie.

[thuganomics85]

I love that Leti didn't give a shit that Atticus tried to kill Christina, but was just pissed that he was trying to hide Christina's involvement with the house and so forth.  Because, yeah, killing the creepy witch (?) is understandable.  But keeping secrets from the one you care for?  Come on, Tic!  Get it together, man!

Continuing to like the revolving genres, and how this one was more of an old-school adventure with a quest, secret caverns, and even some good old booby traps!  Jurnee Smollett, Jonathan Majors, and Michael Kenneth Williams seemed to be having a blast throughout it all, and really work well together.

Looks like William survived as well, although I'm definitely thinking the theory that Christina and him are the same person is a distinct possibility.  I hope Ruby doesn't get her heart broken.  Or worse...

Hippolyta continues to put the pieces together, and is beginning her own investigation.  I do worry about her and Diana going back to the "scene of the crime."

Did not see that ending coming.  I don't think they're going to make Montrose flat-out evil, but he clearly seems to be doing what he can to thwart Tic.  Either due to a misguided attempt to protect him or something else entirely is going on.

[SeanC]

I'm not completely against the use of contemporary music in period pieces, and some of them in this series have worked, but there's been way too many anachronistic needle-drops at this point.

[Scarlett45]

9 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

Did not see that ending coming.  I don't think they're going to make Montrose flat-out evil, but he clearly seems to be doing what he can to thwart Tic.  Either due to a misguided attempt to protect him or something else entirely is going on.

I think he is trying to protect him. I think he loves Tic a lot but he’s very much about self preservation and isn’t willing to put himself in danger for the greater good. He doesn’t want Tic to get hurt over some noble cause. 

[kay1864]

52 minutes ago, paigow said:

So some time between the War of 1812 & The Civil War...Titus Bezos Musk built a HYPERLOOP tunnel from Chicago to Boston that you can walk in 3 hours. 

 Evil Elevator is now Magic Evil Elevator.

53 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

I am slowly coming round to the idea that he and Christina are the same person

 Except that he didn’t know who Leti was. Or at least acted like it.

[AnimeMania]

Things that felt strange to me:

Hippolyta steals the Orrery, how did she get that huge hunk of "Gold?" past all of the party guests and her nosy daughter, into the car, into her house. With the Orrery sitting out in the open, how come nobody questions where it came from? 

How can the road trippers drive off leaving their garage door wide open?

Why didn't Tree get left on the side of the road 5 minutes into the trip?

Police Captain Lancaster, head of the Chicago Sons of Adam Lodge, is shown pictured in a newspaper article with a giant key. Could this be the key that Hippolyta needs for the Orrery, then it is probably prominently displayed at the Chicago Sons of Adam Lodge. What is this nonsense I am hearing about a time machine? I hate time travel, it tends to make stories about it extremely stupid and annoying.

How does Tic know Yahima's language?

Eighty years ago, a white man walks into a black bar to pick up a black woman, what happens...  nothing.

Eighty years ago, a black woman walks into a expensive white Department Store to browse, what happens...  nothing. Wait a minute that wouldn't even happen today, no undercover security follow her through the store? No sales clerks wondering if she has enough money to shop there?

Then there is the Boston Museum where there are blacks and whites working together and intermingling amongst the exhibits. 

The library that Tic went to do his research seemed to be all black, maybe he should have also tried a white library. Separate but equal.

Where are all those wonderful families that were supposed to be living in Leti's house. If all the children were still running up and down the hallways, maybe Montrose wouldn't be able to get away with murder. The neighborhood seems to have quieted down as of late with only marginal racist flair ups.

[paigow]

Where do the other tunnels go? NYC? London? Paris?

The long distance booty call suddenly became less important since Tree was willing to spend 3 hours in a museum instead of heading to the Bus Station... 

[bosawks]

I loved the background music to this episode.

And I admit to screaming a little bit when the keeper of the scroll came back to life....

[Chicago Redshirt]

12 hours ago, peridot said:

I loved that little boy who kept shushing them in the library, he even slammed his book onto the table in disgust!

Tic needs to get it together.  He didn't tell Leti about the shadiness around her house, and he was just going to leave town without a word.  I'm glad Leti ripped into him about his self-centeredness.  She was the one who died because of this crap.

I feel bad for Ruby, she tried so hard to get a job at that place, only to have it given to another, thinner black woman.  Now that people are saying that William = Christina, I'm really not sure how to feel about that hookup.  I'm surprised Ruby didn't say anything about that snake scarification on his chest.  That would definitely turn me off.

How strange that the tunnel landed them back in Chicago.  I'm worried about Hippolyta now.

Go on with your bad self, Future Librarian!

One of the favorite things about the series is that Our Heroes should always avoid the mistakes that black folks yell at white horror movie heroes not to do. Like, don't split up, you idiots! (When there were three paths, I was worried that they would each go down one, for example). And for the most part, they have avoided these things. But one big area where they are falling into the same trap is sharing information and collaborative decsionmaking. Tic should have totally told Leti and Montrose that he figured out Christina was a) alive b) in town c) behind her windfall d) wanting something from them.  He should have pumped her for  information. (What else would he pump her for?/Buffy). Montrose needed to involve everyone in the fact hat he had the bylaws, give Tic and Leti a chance to read it and to decide if burning it was for the best. For that matter, Hippolyta probably should have told Leti (and the crew) that she found a mysterious orrery in Leti's house and was going to tke it. And even though she didn't have a chance to yet, Ruby should tell Leti about her hooking up with a mysterious white guy.

It may be unfair, but I am going to blame all that sort of shiznit on J.J. Abrams. Because that is classic J.J. Abrams that characters don't share vital information with each other even though they should and there's no reason not to. by a super-rich family. 

For non-Chicagoans, Marshall Field's was an actual chain of stores, which has since been bought out by Macy's. For a lot of winters it was a thing for my family to go into this ornate Walnut Room and have a Christmas meal with this big-ass Christmas tree and get a souvenir glass. You can still get their signature candies, Frango Mints, through Macy's which I encourage people to try. Anyway, it was a mild disappointment that the scene was filmed in what seemed to be a generic department store instead of the actual main Marshall Field's, which is a historic landmark. 

I feel bad for Ruby too, especially because it seems Christina/William (Chrilliam?) are using her as a pawn. I suspect they might have had a hand in getting the thinner/lighter black woman hired. Those of you who used to frequent the How to Get Away With Murder forum might remember the Cobbler Effect (named because the heroine gave her then-boyfriend some peach cobbler she said she baked herself and people were wondering if it were true and if there was something more going on with the cobbler because the show just piled on crazy twist after twist). Well, this show takes the Cobbler Effect up to 11! I can't look at a simple development and not wonder if there's some hidden agenda at work. Between copious amounts of alcohol, rejection from Marhsall Field's, appreciation after a rare unsuccessful set,actual attraction to William, interracial taboo, and magic, it seems like she was primed to do hookup. It may be my paranoia or what a lifetime of horror movies have taught me, but nothing good can come from boning in a haunted or former haunted house.

I'm always worried about Hippolyta and Dee. As much as I love the show, I think I would have to quit it if it did much worse to either of them.

12 hours ago, Indigo Luna said:

Noticed they only bring around the Marilyn Manson songs when the white people seem to be up to no good.

If they played Marilyn Manson songs when the white people seem to be up to no good, they'd run through his catalogue pretty quick! (Thank you, try the veal!)

12 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

My great aunt (born 1928) who was our nanny, when she was a young woman she wanted to be a switch board operator- they told her bad enough she was a colored girl, but a heavy set one wouldn’t do. A switch board operator. No one sees you. Damn. 
 

A Leti type would be hired at Marshall Fields before Ruby, and they would only hire one. I get why she was depressed. Side note the actress is so beautiful and her skin just glows. 

That is some messed up stuff about your great-aunt, and co-sign everything about Ruby. 

11 hours ago, DearEvette said:

I like how each episode of the show so far has a different thematic feel.  The first episode was a nod nostalgic drama, the second episode was a nod to gothic horror, the third episode was a nod to the haunted house narrative, and now this was a nod to the matinee adventure story (Indiana Jones, Goonies, King Solomon Mines etc.).  That vault in Boston with the elevator that leads to her house in Chicago was a really cool surprise.

Color me shocked when Ruby and Mr. Alabaster got it on.  I am slowly coming round to the idea that he and Christina are the same person.  Because I still don't think we've seen them in a scene together.  I am impatient for the show to delve more into Ruby's story.  It is doing a great job of showing vs. telling us that some of her bitterness with her lack of advancement and some of her resentment toward Leti has to do with colorism.  The show isn't saying anything explicit, but I feel that it is hanging all over the subtext and the things that are not being said. 

I don't understand what the hell is going on with Montrose.  Does he really think he is protecting Tic by sabotaging him?  Since when is keeping people in the dark and not telling them important things protects them?  It is a recipe for a blindside.

Good episode with a lot of fun suspenseful moments.

In a sense, it is understandable for Montrose to think that being an ostrich is the right move. Winning against ordinary white folks was hard enough, but white folks with magic? Forget about it. It probably is denial born of PTSD speaking -- he has been kidnapped, subjected to presumably some sort of mind games and exposure to shoggoths, forced to lure everyone to Ardham, and now has seen his brother murdered, and Leti shot and resurrected. I could see wanting to go back to a state of innocence about the occult too.

What he doesn't yet seem to understand is there's no sitting out the game that they are in. (I will mail J.J. and Jordan $5 if they get Montrose to say "It's all in the game" or some other Omar-ism.)

11 hours ago, SeanC said:

I'm not completely against the use of contemporary music in period pieces, and some of them in this series have worked, but there's been way too many anachronistic needle-drops at this point.

The only one that really worked for me was Whitey on the Moon.

11 hours ago, kay1864 said:

 Except that he didn’t know who Leti was. Or at least acted like it.

Whether William is also Christina, he totally knows who Leti is. He welcomed Our Heroes into the lodge, and invited them to the two meals that they had.

7 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

Things that felt strange to me:

Hippolyta steals the Orrery, how did she get that huge hunk of "Gold?" past all of the party guests and her nosy daughter, into the car, into her house. With the Orrery sitting out in the open, how come nobody questions where it came from? 

How can the road trippers drive off leaving their garage door wide open?

Why didn't Tree get left on the side of the road 5 minutes into the trip?

Police Captain Lancaster, head of the Chicago Sons of Adam Lodge, is shown pictured in a newspaper article with a giant key. Could this be the key that Hippolyta needs for the Orrery, then it is probably prominently displayed at the Chicago Sons of Adam Lodge. What is this nonsense I am hearing about a time machine? I hate time travel, it tends to make stories about it extremely stupid and annoying.

How does Tic know Yahima's language?

Eighty years ago, a white man walks into a black bar to pick up a black woman, what happens...  nothing.

Eighty years ago, a black woman walks into a expensive white Department Store to browse, what happens...  nothing. Wait a minute that wouldn't even happen today, no undercover security follow her through the store? No sales clerks wondering if she has enough money to shop there?

Then there is the Boston Museum where there are blacks and whites working together and intermingling amongst the exhibits. 

The library that Tic went to do his research seemed to be all black, maybe he should have also tried a white library. Separate but equal.

Where are all those wonderful families that were supposed to be living in Leti's house. If all the children were still running up and down the hallways, maybe Montrose wouldn't be able to get away with murder. The neighborhood seems to have quieted down as of late with only marginal racist flair ups.

We have no idea when or how exactly Hippolyta took the orrery. The last scene of her in the previous episode was her seeing it, and the first scene of her in this episode was that she had it. For all we know, the spirits helped her, Evil Elevator transferred it to her office, she made Tic move it, etc. 

It was more trusting times, I guess, and people left doors and such open.

Hippolyta is a kind soul and has a high level of tolerance for B.S. and none of the other people wanted to cross her. So Tree stayed rooted. (Also, I did appreciate his self-proclaimed Carribbean-infused reason for his nickname).

Christina told us explicitly that Lancaster is not an actual member of the local lodge when she pointed out he had never been initiated, let alone its head. I don't remember the photo but presumably it is just one of the oversized "keys to the city" that people get/got for heroism, meant to show us that Lancaster has political clout rather than actually being tied to the orrery. I don't think that Epstein or any of these cultists would do something as pedestrian as having a literal key be needed to operate a device, let alone one that would be pictured anywhere publicly. I am hoping by "time machine," they are talking about a device that would do what Samuel Braithwaite attempted -- allow one-way passage to the Garden of Eden at the beginning of time, as opposed to their own personal Tardis/DeLorean that could allow trips anywhere in time and space. I tend to agree, time travel done freely tends to eat itself up.

Tic's got magic from Titus Braithwaite that will occasionally manifest itself in ways like being able to understand languages he hadn't been exposed to. Presumably an effect of whatever spell Titus cast so he could understand the indigenous woman.

Pretty sure white guys would go to certain black bars and pick up black women on the regular in the real world back in the 1950s. 

Ruby was only in the store for a little bit, and she was pretty immediately approached by a sales clerk. She did not seem to have an opportunity to steal anything. Yes, profiling still happens today in department stores, but it isn't just based on race. It's also based on age and other factors. I could buy that Ruby wouldn't get followed around even if she had spent more time looking around because she seems out of the prime shoplifting risk demo (16-24). 

I'll admit that it seemed odd that the Boston museum was as integrated as it was. In fact, this was the first episode where Our Heroes did not experience in-your-face racism. 

The library where Tic was doing his research was explicitly labeled for colored people on the outside. Obviously, he wouldn't have been able to go to a white library. Yes, it's odd that the black library would have all these rando books on the occult and whatnot.

People who live at the house may have developed tunnel vision/hearing so that they can ignore poltergeists, murders of racists, sex on the stairs and the occasional throat-slitting in exchange for cheap rent. 

Edited September 7, 2020 by Chicago Redshirt

[FlowerofCarnage]

Stair sex took place at Willstina's house. Remember, Ruby moved out of Leti's house.

[Scarlett45]

9 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

For non-Chicagoans, Marshall Field's was an actual chain of stores, which has since been bought out by Macy's. For a lot of winters it was a thing for my family to go into this ornate Walnut Rooom and have a Christmas meal with this big-ass Christmas tree and get a souvenir glass. You can still get their signature candies, Frango Mints, through Macy's which I encourage people to try. Anyway, it was a mild disappointment that the scene was filmed in what seemed to be a generic department store instead of the actual main Marshall Field's, which is a historic landmark. 

Yeah i said to my mom “that’s not Marshall Field’s”!!(state street location)

[paigow]

Montrose has been outed as bisexual or gay which increases the probability that he is not bio-dad...  

[Chicago Redshirt]

29 minutes ago, paigow said:

Montrose has been outed as bisexual or gay which increases the probability that he is not bio-dad...  

1. Tree is the one who put the bug into Tic's ear that Montrose has been cozy with the queer bar owner. Tree is obviously not necessarily the smartest, most perceptive or accurate source of info.

2. Assuming that it's true that  Montrose is gay or bi, I don't see how it changes the chances of whether he or George is bio-dad. It has to be a given that both slept with Dora around the same time for it to be an issue, and Montrose being gay/bi doesn't meaningfully change the dynamic on whether it was just once that he slept with Dora in proximity with when she became pregnant or 30 times. Even if we were to agree for discussion's sake that he and Dora did it just the once and George and she were doing it every day and twice on Sundays, it doesn't really meaningfully change the possibility that the one time with Montrose was how she got pregnant. 

Edited September 7, 2020 by Chicago Redshirt

[DearEvette]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

What he doesn't yet seem to understand is there's no sitting out the game that they are in. (I will mail J.J. and Jordan $5 if they get Montrose to say "It's all in the game" or some other Omar-ism.)

There is this in The Wire between Lt. Daniels and his wife and she says 'The game is rigged. But you can not win if you do not play."  Montrose came really close to saying something like that.  LOL.  So did Ruby.

[Scarlett45]

57 minutes ago, paigow said:

Montrose has been outed as bisexual or gay which increases the probability that he is not bio-dad...  

Yes I caught that too (that Montrose is gay or bi). There was a reason the bar owner in episode one was seen receiving fellatio from a guy. (That’s where Tic knew to find his Dad).  
 

Given Montrose thought he was Tic’s bio Dad and was married to Tic’s mom for a decent amount of time they did have sex, I don’t know why she chose him over Uncle George (could be he was more in tune with her values and philosophies) but yeah Tic now knows Montrose has sexual relations with men. 

29 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

1. Tree is the one who put the bug into Tic's ear that Montrose has been cozy with the queer bar owner. Tree is obviously not necessarily the smartest, most perceptive or accurate source of info.

2. Assuming that it's true that  Montrose is gay or bi, I don't see how it changes the chances of whether he or George is bio-dad. It has to be a given that both slept with Dora around the same time for it to be an issue, and Montrose being gay/bi doesn't meaningfully change the dynamic on whether it was just once that he slept with Dora in proximity with when she became pregnant or 30 times. Even if we were to agree for discussion's sake that he and Dora did it just the once and George and she were doing it every day and twice on Sundays, it doesn't really meaningfully change the possibility that the one time with Montrose was how she got pregnant. 

Ditto. 

[AgentRXS]

1 hour ago, paigow said:

Montrose has been outed as bisexual or gay which increases the probability that he is not bio-dad...  

Not necessarily true. I've known plenty of gay men from his era over the years, and many did have children from relationships with women. Montrose is just one of many of his time who either hooked up with a woman to hide his sexuality or genuinely had a relationship with them before realizing they were gay (if he isn't just bisexual).

I look forward to and hope we get more backstory on the Montrose/Dora/George love triangle.

I loved the Indiana Jones feel of this episode. Though I still miss George, Monstrose/Leti/Tic made a great trio.

[paigow]

Leti is going to raise goats in the backyard so she has a secure blood supply for marking all the doors and windows...

[Joimiaroxeu]

Every locked thing has its key. Yep. But sometimes you're not meant to find it or whatever it opens.

Why was creepy Christina playing hide `n' seek with those kids? Was it just to get arrested?

That woody was a gorgeous car.

Guess the Highlander rule was in effect at Marshall Fields as far as Black employees were concerned: there can only be one. Poor Ruby.

Jesse Owens ain't got sh!t on Montrose. Whee!

I've never understood the sex on stairs thing. How does that not wreck your back, or at least the back of the person on the bottom? (Interesting that the name of this episode refers to a key scene from the movie, A History of Violence, where a guy has some rough sex with his wife on the staircase in their house.)

Can you kill a reanimated mummy? Whatever, dang, Montrose.

Yeah, ditto comments upthread, this episode kind of went Raiders of the Lost Ark. On steroids.

Quote

Those of you who are saying that Willam and Christina are one in the same I wonder what that means for Ruby. 

It means she's in a world of trouble.

Quote

Let’s have a moment for when Jonathan Majors took his shirt off. 

Yes please. Let's have several. 😗

Quote

nothing good can come from boning in a haunted or former haunted house.

Nothing good can come from boning a shapeshifting vampire either. Poor Ruby.

[kay1864]

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Whether William is also Christina, he totally knows who Leti is. He welcomed Our Heroes into the lodge, and invited them to the two meals that they had.

 Oh, that was so two episodes ago 😆

So when he was asking “Who’s Leti”, he was indirectly asking “Who are you?”

[paigow]

Where did all this underground water come from? They climbed UP a rope ladder to find the scroll. The windows broke and the vault was flooded. How long had that arm been stuck in the lock? It looked fresh. 

[Empress1]

3 hours ago, AgentRXS said:

Not necessarily true. I've known plenty of gay men from his era over the years, and many did have children from relationships with women. Montrose is just one of many of his time who either hooked up with a woman to hide his sexuality or genuinely had a relationship with them before realizing they were gay (if he isn't just bisexual).

Yeah, lots of men have had sex with both men and women. I have a family friend who is in his early 60s who was married to a woman for 20-some years and has three kids. He came out maybe a dozen years ago, got a divorce, and is now married to a man. There are lots of gay men married to women with whom they've had children right now, today. My gay male friends who are on dating apps tell me they come across men married to women all the time. 

17 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

A Leti type would be hired at Marshall Fields before Ruby, and they would only hire one.

I was surprised that the employee was as dark as she was, to be honest.

2 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

I've never understood the sex on stairs thing. How does that not wreck your back, or at least the back of the person on the bottom?

I had several thoughts during that sex scene: one, that I don't think William is good-looking (I think that whenever he comes on); two, that that ritual scarring on his chest would give me pause; three, that the sex didn't look like fun. I think Ruby's head was hitting the stair. Maybe that's why she was making all that noise.

But Ruby was depressed, and she's neither the first nor the last person to take companionship when it's offered, when she's in a depressed state. It's going to bite her in the ass, though. I hope she's not pregnant with the Anti-Christ or something.

12 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

Eighty years ago, a white man walks into a black bar to pick up a black woman, what happens...  nothing.

Of course nothing would happen. Even though he's a minority in that space, his whiteness gives him power. The other patrons may have resented him being there (it's supposed to be a safe space and now they have to be on alert, because he could ruin it for all of them), but they're not going to run him out. All he has to do is go to the cops and tell them ... well, anything, really, and the cops show up the next night and shut the place down. There's a whole section in The Autobiography of Malcolm X where he describes how white people would come to Black clubs. Ruby herself said he wasn't the first white man to try to get with her.

I'm very confused about why Yahima was introduced only to be murdered by Montrose. Can anyone help me out?

[grawlix]

On 9/7/2020 at 12:30 AM, AnimeMania said:

Things that felt strange to me:

How can the road trippers drive off leaving their garage door wide open?

Why didn't Tree get left on the side of the road 5 minutes into the trip?

How does Tic know Yahima's language?

I think we have to assume that this is a small close-knit community on the Chicago South Side.  Mom and pop businesses were essential to the community and the community self polices against theft.  I also think that Hippolyta hired someone to mind the store while they were on their road trip so the garage door will be closed sometime during the day.  As for Tree, he took advantage of the shared community support for a free ride.  I think Hippolyta saw how annoying giving a ride to Tree would be to the others and that just made it all the more appealing -- it is her car.

 

In the early scene with Leti, Christine mentioned that Tic's blood has power because Titus spelled it that way.  I'm going to assume that Titus spell gave him the power to communicate with Yahima (close caption stated the language was Arawak) and since Tic is a male of Titus's blood, he also has that power.

 

On 9/7/2020 at 10:04 AM, paigow said:

Leti is going to raise goats in the backyard so she has a secure blood supply for marking all the doors and windows...

Leti should give the Creole woman room and board in exchange for teaching her protection and exorcism  chants.

 

On 9/7/2020 at 11:36 AM, paigow said:

Where did all this underground water come from? They climbed UP a rope ladder to find the scroll. The windows broke and the vault was flooded. How long had that arm been stuck in the lock? It looked fresh. 

From what I can tell from the last episode, the arm had belonged to Hiram Epstein and losing the arm appeared to be part of what caused Hiram's death.  No idea on why it looked fresh.

 

The door on the other side of the plank transported the group to under Leti's house, so the water came from Lake Michigan.  The trap door was probably a portal to a location that was underwater.

Edited September 9, 2020 by grawlix

[Arcey]

Didn't Leti say something to Tree about them fucking in high school? If so, guess she lied to Tic about their sex being her first time.

I think Christina's acting is awful (carried over from previous week's discussion).

Why did Montrose kill Yahima at the end?

I honestly understand very little of anything that's going on in this show. I listened to the podcast for last week's episode (Ghosts), and they said certain things casually about the story that were probably obvious to everyone but me. I was like "what the fuck?????" I realized then that I understand almost nothing about what I'm watching. LOL!!

Edited September 7, 2020 by Arcey
typo

[paigow]

1 hour ago, grawlix said:

The door on the other side of the plank transported the group to under Leti's house, so the water came from Lake Michigan.

There should be sinkholes after that water finds a weak spot in the tunnel

[paigow]

9 minutes ago, Arcey said:

Didn't Leti say something to Tree about them fucking in high school? If so, guess she lied to Tic about their sex being her first time.

She was repeating the lie Tree told Tic. Tree was bragging about his giant dick. She said there was no need to brag IF she had seen it already.

[Empress1]

36 minutes ago, paigow said:

She was repeating the lie Tree told Tic. Tree was bragging about his giant dick. She said there was no need to brag IF she had seen it already.

I loved that. “Shouldn’t I already know that since we used to fuck in high school?” Leti is no shrinking violet. I loved that she was the one to grab the scroll underwater too.

Edited September 7, 2020 by Empress1

[TexasGal]

1 hour ago, Empress1 said:

I loved that. “Shouldn’t I already know that since we used to fuck in high school?” Leti is no shrinking violet. I loved that she was the one to grab the scroll underwater too.

Me too!  They went through all that to get the scroll, she was not going to let it go.  I wonder if Montrose lost it accidentally on purpose, given what he did at the end.

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 9/7/2020 at 4:15 PM, Arcey said:

Didn't Leti say something to Tree about them fucking in high school? If so, guess she lied to Tic about their sex being her first time.

I think Christina's acting is awful (carried over from previous week's discussion).

Why did Montrose kill Yahima at the end?

I honestly understand very little of anything that's going on in this show. I listened to the podcast for last week's episode (Ghosts), and they said certain things casually about the story that were probably obvious to everyone but me. I was like "what the fuck?????" I realized then that I understand almost nothing about what I'm watching. LOL!!

Like others have said, Leti was being sarcastic.

In the previous episode, we saw Tree point Leti out to Tic and claim that they used to "tussle" in high school (i.e. fuck)  and that he was feeling "nostalgic." But he wondered if Leti was Tic's girl because she was letting him stay rent-free, and advised him to step up and let her know that she was his, to be all gross and sexist. Emboldened by Tree's talk and/or Leti's dirty dancing, Tic went for it and lasted like 30 seconds. 

At some point off-screen, Tic must have told Leti that Tree bragged that he was tussling back in high school with her.

So when Tree was bragging that he has three legs, she was putting him in his place. Obviously if they had been getting it on back in high school, she would have experienced the glory of his third leg and he wouldn't have to be hitting on her by bragging about it now.

Also, Tree is a prince for waiting to hit on her until basically the next time he saw her. His inability to see that there was something going on between Leti and Tic calls into question for me his read that Montrose is gay/bi. But it could be a case of even a broken clock's right twice a day.

Edited September 9, 2020 by Chicago Redshirt

[kay1864]

6 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Tic went for it and lasted like 30 seconds. 

 That may have been generous.

[tennisgurl]

We had our road trip episodes with the creepy small town, the haunted house, and now the Goonies style underground cavern treasure map episode! I am liking the tour through different types of genres, which all lead to different vibes and styles but are all also thematically connected enough that it never seems random. The room full of mummies and the scroll keeper coming to life was super creepy to me, even more creepy than the ghost shenanigans last week. Of course, Leti is the MVP, as always, grabbing the scroll as the tomb caved in, telling Tick to stop keeping stuff from her, especially when it totally concerns her, swimming down the corridor, and just generally being awesome. 

No wait, Leti might be tied for MVP this week with that kid at the library who kept shushing Tic and Leti, and then stormed off in a huff when they wouldn't be quiet. That kid gets what libraries are for! 

Its hard to know what to make of Montrose. He can be such a dick, but he also seems to be at least somewhat mentally unwell and is clearly deeply unhappy, and while he seems to be constantly criticizing Tick, he did actually show some pride in him too this week...and then he murdered the scroll keeper (who is just having the worst time of it) for some unknown reason. I think that he did it to protect Tic in some way, to stop him from going into this any further and get himself killed, but god dang. 

So William survived like Christina...or William actually is Christina? I have no idea, these people are all kinds of strange. I actually wondered, with all the scars, that he might be some kind of magical artificial construct that Christina made to follow her orders or something. He just seems super off, in a way that not even Christina is. 

The subtext with Ruby and her resentment towards Leti was really interesting this week. She sees her sister, who is skinnier and has a lighter complexion, as someone who has all of these opportunities that she will never have, being curvaceous and darker skinned, and more outside of what mainstream society deemed attractive at the time (which is nonsense, as Ruby is clearly all kinds of beautiful) and is rather bitter about that. I really hope that she does not get dragged too far into whatever plans are having with the magic cult. Also, applaud the women when she sings damn it!

Some of the anachronistic music works for me, but when its used too much, or when its really obviously modern, it really takes me out of the show. It can feel really jarring. 

Edited September 9, 2020 by tennisgurl

[Chicago Redshirt]

Leti has a pretty commanding lead in the Lovecraft Country MVP race through 4 episodes.

She has:

• Warned Our Heroes about the racists at the diner and drove like a maniac to keep them safe
• Ran like hell to get Woody and ran over the sheriff who would have probably otherwise killed Tic
• Rescued George and Tic from the townie who had them at gunpoint
• Saved her residents from the boiler exploding 
• Got the priestess in place and rallied the spirits to kick Hiram (and a possessed Tic) the f--- out of her house
• Kept her eyes on the prize and got the scroll

By contrast, Tic and George have mostly provided background knowledge and support. In fact, I'm not sure I can credit either with a full-fledged save/independent act of bad-assery. Like Tic saved Leti's life by not fighting the cultists further, but that's not really the same sort of thing, if that make sense. Maybe I'm missing some.

I hope Tic gets a W that matches up with Leti's feats soon. Or at least that of Future Librarian. 🙂

[Annber03]

Well. That ending. Hello. 

On 9/6/2020 at 10:02 PM, Scarlett45 said:

Y’all know me by now. Let’s have a moment for when Jonathan Majors took his shirt off. 

Those glasses were a good look on him, too. 

On 9/6/2020 at 9:48 PM, Scarlett45 said:

My great aunt (born 1928) who was our nanny, when she was a young woman she wanted to be a switch board operator- they told her bad enough she was a colored girl, but a heavy set one wouldn’t do. A switch board operator. No one sees you. Damn. 

That's incredibly shitty. I'm sorry that your great aunt had to experience that kind of crap. 

I agree that this episode felt very much like some kind of big Indiana Jones-type story. And now I'm thinking I would totally watch an action/adventure film involving this cast. 

Leti continues to be a badass and I love her. 

[Cotypubby]

That hidden treasure room with the mummy tableaux* was straight out of “The Goonies.” They even included the fast zoom into the main mummy holding the treasure object ala One Eyed Willie. I wouldn’t have been surprised to see a pirate ship float by after the room flooded!

*Which always makes me wonder, every time a similar scene is in a movie, did they kill everyone and then pose them for the benefit of future treasure hunters, or somehow kill everyone so they died immediately in whatever pose they were in?

[Chicago Redshirt]

Some thoughts on rewatch:

What stood out more for was a lot about Montrose and Michael K. Wiliams. The opening scene where he was processing some of what went on with his family included what was seemingly him being chastised by his father for putting a flower in his hair and being told to break off a switch. That combined with George a couple of episodes back talking about how he wished he had done more to protect Montrose makes methink that Tree actually is right and Montrose is gay or bi. Why Montrose's thoughts went in that direction is somewhat of a mystery to me. Williams didn't really have a lot to work with in the previous episodes. Here, he got a whole range of sentiments and roles to walk Montrose through, from surprise to fear to anger to pride to joy, from mentor to matchmaker to protector to coward. 

I felt for Ruby even more. Here she has been having this dream for months of working for Fields, trying to perfect her resume and the like, and rando girl on a whim applies and basically boxes her out from there for the foreseeable future. Then she goes to try something that's been right in her wheelhouse -- performing. She even breaks away from her usual style of dress for something sparkly to try to feel better about herself. And for the first time in perhaps a while (at least, in the performances we've seen on screen at the block party and the house party), the crowd was absolutely not feeling her. She doesn't even have enough money for another drink. Then along comes William, and hisrap is pretty transparent. But whether it's because of literal magic or depression or desperation, she hooks up. Well, at least William seems to last longer and be more enjoyable for her than a certain two-pump chump was with Leti.....

On Chrilliam: I rewound the scene where Christina returns home and William emerges and kicks the crap out of Lancaster's goons a few times. We see Christina disappear behind part of the house and hear a door open and shut. Seconds later, William emerges from the area where we lose sight of Christina and walks out to beat down Lancaster's peeps. For me, it was ambiguous. It could be that Christina went inside and William somehow knew that Christina was followed (he is, presumably, wizard-ish? wizard-adjacent) and took matters in his own hands. It could be that Christina knew she was being followed and did a quick-change into William to administer justice.  The scene with Christina badly playing hide-and-seek largely didn't work for me, one of the few in the episodes thus far that fell flat. I'm not sure if that's  Abbey Lee's fault or the writing, but I lean towards the latter. I thought she was better when she was trying to pay the sisterhood is powerful card with Leti, or when she was taunting Captain Lancaster. It's been a while (seemingly) since someone dropped the n-word (for which I am grateful) but Lancaster's use of the C word means (presumably) he has got a painful end coming.

 The official podcast mentioned that there was a scene for this episode that didn't end up getting filmed. The group stopped off at a convenience store with a sign saying "We don't serve colored." But Dee went in and got a coke and Montrose noticed. Apparently there was a debate about how Montrose would have reacted, up to slapping the Coke out of her hand. I kinda wish that had made it to the episode. 

Finally - Our Heroes destroying the stereotype that Black people can't swim! 🙂

 

[AnimeMania]

3 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I felt for Ruby even more. Here she has been having this dream for months of working for Fields, trying to perfect her resume and the like, and rando girl on a whim applies and basically boxes her out from there for the foreseeable future. Then she goes to try something that's been right in her wheelhouse -- performing. She even breaks away from her usual style of dress for something sparkly to try to feel better about herself. And for the first time in perhaps a while (at least, in the performances we've seen on screen at the block party and the house party), the crowd was absolutely not feeling her.

[SNIP]

 

 The official podcast mentioned that there was a scene for this episode that didn't end up getting filmed. The group stopped off at a convenience store with a sign saying "We don't serve colored." But Dee went in and got a coke and Montrose noticed. Apparently there was a debate about how Montrose would have reacted, up to slapping the Coke out of her hand. I kinda wish that had made it to the episode. 

I didn't feel that sorry for Ruby. She had talked about getting that job since Episode 1 and here it is Episode 4 and at least a month or more has passed and she is still talking about it. The early bird gets the worm. Although I am not positive but I don't think she had applied to Marshal Field and was turned down and then they hired another woman for the job, I think she just procrastinated and made excuses about her Resume, even after a nice person handed her a typewriter to motivate her to "Just Do It". Ruby was "A Day Late and A Dollar Short".

Then depressed, drunk Ruby gets up and sings a depressing, violent song and nobody is "feeling" her. To be honest, I thought the song was horrible. 

I am glad they didn't put the deleted scene into the episode because I won't understand what it meant or what Diana did that was so wrong. The writer said that maybe they would have Montrose slap Diana for buying the Coke. That would have made me hate Montrose just as much as I did for slitting the throat of Yahima.

This would have been a deleted scene that I could have enjoyed. The four soaking wet people finally make it to the elevator and start heading up into the house. The elevator stops on the first floor and a female resident of the house looks at them, gets on the elevator and asks "Did ya'll install an indoor pool in the basement?". 

[Chicago Redshirt]

3 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

I didn't feel that sorry for Ruby. She had talked about getting that job since Episode 1 and here it is Episode 4 and at least a month or more has passed and she is still talking about it. The early bird gets the worm. Although I am not positive but I don't think she had applied to Marshal Field and was turned down and then they hired another woman for the job, I think she just procrastinated and made excuses about her Resume, even after a nice person handed her a typewriter to motivate her to "Just Do It". Ruby was "A Day Late and A Dollar Short".

Then depressed, drunk Ruby gets up and sings a depressing, violent song and nobody is "feeling" her. To be honest, I thought the song was horrible. 

I am glad they didn't put the deleted scene into the episode because I won't understand what it meant or what Diana did that was so wrong. The writer said that maybe they would have Montrose slap Diana for buying the Coke. That would have made me hate Montrose just as much as I did for slitting the throat of Yahima.

This would have been a deleted scene that I could have enjoyed. The four soaking wet people finally make it to the elevator and start heading up into the house. The elevator stops on the first floor and a female resident of the house looks at them, gets on the elevator and asks "Did ya'll install an indoor pool in the basement?". 

People's mileage will vary, but maybe more context will make Ruby more sympathetic. Or not.#ruby'sfault.

Getting a job at Marshall Field's would have been a longshot for any black woman in this time period, let alone a dark, heavyset woman. It is beyond the notion of a good steady paycheck and escaping the limited roles there might be for a black woman in white society of maid and nanny. A good part of the allure of a salesperson for a clothing store has nothing to do with sales ability and everything with leaving the customer with an impression that s/he is so glamorous and that the customer wants to be like the salesperson.

For reasons that should be obvious against the backdrop of 50s style racism, that was probably not going to be Ruby ever. As far as we know, there was not a specific job opening available. Ruby was just going to try her luck. Yes, she could have moved faster, but again, knowing what a longshot it was, and having just gone through some things (death of her mother, re-entry into her life of her tumultuous sister, racism for daring to move into a white neighborhood), I'll forgive her for not being Johnny-on-the-spot. I suspect, perhaps baselessly, that the woman who was hired had Christina/William pulling strings behind the scenes.

An aside: the show went out of its way to show Christina driving by the actual Field Museum in Chicago, which was funded by good old Marshall. I don't think that's coincidence that of all the cool old-school buildings she could have driven by, they chose that one. 

As to the podcast, it said that Montrose potentially slapped the Coke out of Dee's hand, rather than Dee herself. But in any case, if they actually did the scene they could and probably would have elaborated on the meaning. In the best scenario, the store clerk made an exception for Dee and in good faith sold her a Coke. Even then, Dee would have been giving money to people who routinely and openly discriminate against Black people. Why support people who aren't going to support people like you? In a more likely case, the people who sold her the Coke probably spit in it or tampered with it in another way.

[DearEvette]

3 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

People's mileage will vary, but maybe more context will make Ruby more sympathetic. Or not.#ruby'sfault.

For reasons that should be obvious against the backdrop of 50s style racism, that was probably not going to be Ruby ever. As far as we know, there was not a specific job opening available. Ruby was just going to try her luck. Yes, she could have moved faster, but again, knowing what a longshot it was, and having just gone through some things (death of her mother, re-entry into her life of her tumultuous sister, racism for daring to move into a white neighborhood), I'll forgive her for not being Johnny-on-the-spot. I suspect, perhaps baselessly, that the woman who was hired had Christina/William pulling strings behind the scenes.

I agree with your take on Ruby.  And I think the context is very, very clear.  And you sum them up very well in the paragraph above.  Ruby's darkness and her weight will always be barrier for some.  Ruby's lack of opportunity is definitely not her fault. The bootstrap narrative only takes you so far and is an insidious lie.  There are entire studies about colorism and the advantages of being near white.  For a person like Ruby who as we know has tried to assimilate more only to be knocked back, it can take a toll on your confidence and sense of self worth.  She absolutely deserves her few moments of self pity. 

It is very easy to be horrified by the overt demonstrations racism that we've seen with the racist cops and the harassing neighbors. Those are tangible and easily pointed out and gives someone like Leti an opportunity to show acts of defiance. But the more coded, ephemeral acts of racism that Ruby is contending with are not and I think the show is doing a good job through her showing  just how soul sucking in those things can be because you sometimes can't demonstrate satisfying acts of defiance against them. 

Edited September 9, 2020 by DearEvette

[LoveIsJoy]

17 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Getting a job at Marshall Field's would have been a longshot for any black woman in this time period, let alone a dark, heavyset woman. It is beyond the notion of a good steady paycheck and escaping the limited roles there might be for a black woman in white society of maid and nanny. A good part of the allure of a salesperson for a clothing store has nothing to do with sales ability and everything with leaving the customer with an impression that s/he is so glamorous and that the customer wants to be like the salesperson.

My own mother, who happens to be very light-skinned, has told me several stories of being told, point blank, that an office didn’t hire negroes (or coloreds) at all.  She graduated HS in the early ‘50s in Chicago.  She was an exceptional stenographer and typist, and even being light-skinned, well-spoken, attractive, slim, educated and qualified, didn’t give her instant advantage. Still, she admits she probably had a better shot than an equally qualified brown or dark woman.  

She got so frustrated that she began asking over the phone if the company even hired negroes, before she set out on yet another El train ride to apply in person.  Finally, she got her first job at Spiegel headquarters in Chicago.  

In that light, I found the situation with Ruby to be completely compelling, depressing, and accurate to the times. I was hoping against hope that she would get some Hollywood magic and prevail, but the show took her character to an all-too-familiar place.  

All other qualities being equal, just being brown-skinned and overweight would have been another hurdle to landing a job at Marshall Field. Ruby had every right to be devastated. (OTOH, not knowing her backstory, the crowd had every right to withhold applause for her lackluster performance).

17 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

A good part of the allure of a salesperson for a clothing store has nothing to do with sales ability and everything with leaving the customer with an impression that s/he is so glamorous and that the customer wants to be like the salesperson.

So true. My former mother-in-law (who happens to be white) told me about being hired as a salesclerk in a Michigan department store—also in the early-to-mid ‘50s. She said she was regularly made fun of by her coworkers for having a large “Dutch” nose, and told that if she grew her hair longer, her nose wouldn’t be so noticeable. (She’s sensitive about her nose to this day, and I honestly never thought she was homely and still find her nose to be completely unremarkable 🤷🏽‍♀️). 

Anyway, the worst humiliation came the day that the president showed up unexpectedly and was appalled to see her on the sales floor. In front of everyone present, he loudly and angrily chastised the supervisor for putting someone on the sales floor who was so obviously not the face of their brand.  Mortified, she was sent to a back room, out of the view of customers.

Yeah. The good ole days were not so great for so many people.