S03.E08: Are You Leading or Am I?

[MJ Frog]

34 minutes ago, slf said:

10 hours ago, Lamima said:

Like a poster up thread mentioned...V killing Bill and then Eve gets lovestruck is just icky. She should want pure vengeance.

She should, and she had a lot of anger about his death. But Eve is not a normal person having a normal response.

Also, Eve already killed her once. Didn't take, but still.

[lidarose9]

Didn't Konstantin flip some switch on Dasha's medical machine just before he walked away? To kill her, I mean. 

[CrazyInAlabama]

I think that was Konstantin turning off the monitor, because Dasha finally died.    However, I've been wrong before, so who knows? 

[tvfanatic13]

Wow. Loved the ending. You all said everything already. Jodie Comer’s facial expressions and comedic timing are a thing of beauty.
I too loved the penultimate scene. Was it during that season where she said that working for Helene(?) was a hostile work environment? 

FWIW, I think Caroline is the head of the 12. Until next season...

[Ohwell]

I'd like a series finale with V and Eve having a knock down, drag out fight, with the final scene of them lying together on the ground dying.  And then, like the scene in War of the Roses, Eve reaches over to touch V, and she flips Eve's hand off of her.  Then they're dead dead dead.  They both need to be gone at the end.

[Biggie B]

2 hours ago, TVbitch said:

This season was all about V. It was interesting, but I'm sorry show, no matter how hard you try to humanize her and explain her abusive back story and show her grappling with what appears to be feelings and possible regrets... I am never going to soften toward V cuz she is a psycopathic killer of many innocent people and I really can't wish for a happy ending for her.

I cannot stand Villanelle. I know she is the centerpiece of the show, but I absolutely loathe her - and not in a "oooh, the villain you love to hate like Tony Soprano" way, but like, I want to fast forward through scenes with her. My favorite part of this episode was her "interview" with Carolyn. I loved that Carolyn completely dismissed and basically insulted her. It was immensely satisfying. That whole Russia episode? Hated every minute of it, except for the little Elton John-loving kid. It distresses me that Eve is so utterly enthralled with Villanelle - it is a massive disappointment to watch the two of them together. Instead, I get far more out of Eve when she's interacting with Carolyn or other characters. 

Still, I enjoy this show very much and will wait (im)patiently for the next season. 

[Sakura12]

20 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

So, how does Kenny even know Konstantin?  I know that Konstantin and Caroline were "involved", but I thought that was before Kenny was born.

He was also staying at their house last season. 

I find Villanelle fascinating and Eve annoying. So I was enjoying the more Villanelle centered season. I don't enjoy them trying to change a psychopath, you can't. I can buy V becoming bored with killing and taking orders, but I don't buy her love for Eve changing her. However they do this with male characters all the time because people want to ship them with hero/lead character. So its slightly interesting to see it with a woman. You can't just change a psychopath. Even if she was raised in a loving family she would've still lacked empathy and not care who she hurt. Love can't save them if they don't feel love. Obsession, yes. Wanting to own things or people that fascinate them, yes. In tv I know we are supposed to see growth to keep watching. The only growth I did like was V finally realizing she's bad for Eve and trying to walk away. Or maybe its they are only showing growth for V and Eve isn't growing or changing at all. 

I did like V's reaction to the Konstantin, Carolyn and Paul sitatution. Everyone else was terrified and she was looked like she was enjoying a show. She didn't even attempt to save Konstantin and he shared a bond with her. Like he's told her, they are not family. 

I'm not even going to bother with Carolyn's daughter, what a waste. I would've rather had Kenny. From the way he fell it looked he was knocked out before otherwise he would've been screaming. They probably should've went with the assassin that V killed, killed Kenny after Konstantin left. 

 

 

[chaifan]

They should have just put Geraldine in a giant polar bear costume... 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

5 hours ago, MJ Frog said:

For what it's worth, my first impulse was to think that her mother was the one she wanted to kill all along -- that her minders, Konstantin and Dasha, channeled and then honed that energy, and that crazy, to their own ends. And having achieved her ultimate goal, however subconscious, Villanelle's heart isn't in it anymore. She can definitely still do it, she just no longer takes pleasure in it. As you alluded to, she has been heading towards this since the 1st season, eternally dissatisfied. Now it's time to find something new, and maybe that something new is caring for someone else.

I agree that Dasha and Konstantin took advantage of Villanelle's abandonment issues and hatred of her mother to create a killing machine. But like many people discover, when you finally get the revenge you've dreamed of, you don't feel any better. If anything, for someone like Villanelle (heh, or Inigo Montoya), they're empty afterwards because they no longer have a real purpose. It's likely that Villanelle always blamed her unhappiness on her mother and dreamed of getting back at her and now that she's done that, she realizes that she isn't magically fixed or happy. Now she needs a new goal or purpose. Even when she killed Rhian, it was clear that she wasn't having fun as she had with many of her past kills.

Not leaving with Konstantin is another break from her old life. He's been her handler for years and he's been one of the only constants in her life. She was going to escape this life with him and she chose not to go with him which means she also lost her father figure.

And also remember from the beginning of the season, Konstantin reminded Villanelle that she'd always said she would kill Dasha if she saw her again. Dasha wasn't as emotionally attached to Villanelle as Konstantin was, but in many ways Dasha was as mother figure to her (so it makes sense that Villanelle hated her, resented her, and wanted to kill her too).

Villanelle killed her bio mother, joint killed Dasha with Eve, and walked away from Konstantin. She has effectively cut all ties to her family so she is alone in the world. But what does an ex-assassin do? I can't imagine she will just go take some pottery classes and spend her afternoons sipping wine on the river bank. She also has expensive taste so she's going to need a source of income to keep up with her standard of living. Before the season finale, I would have said she will have the Twelve sending assassins after her but if Rhian is the kind of assassin they'll be sending then Villanelle doesn't have much to worry about. Maybe we'll see if Helene is as good a killer as she claimed to be next season?

[stealinghome]

I finally was able to watch the first 15 minutes of the episode and have to say, Carolyn and Villanelle's "job interview" was so random. It seemed there only to further kick Villanelle when she was down (though I do think Carolyn was trying to teach V something when she asked who killed Mo and Kenny) and make V's existential crisis EXTREMELY OBVIOUS (as if anyone could have missed it). Carolyn and Villanelle's scenes last season were much better. I did, though, guffaw at Carolyn's description of MI-6's canteen. Ah, workplace cafeterias are disappointing everywhere! (Also: Villanelle actually has a lot to offer as a potential spy. I'm not saying Carolyn was wrong to turn her down, but turning her down because she doesn't want to be an assassin anymore is a bit shortsighted. V actually does have other useful skills.) Also the irony of Villanelle accusing anyone else of being overdramatic is pretty hilarious.

But that all said: how does Carolyn know of Helene's existence? She clearly knows more about T12 than she ever lets on.... I did also laugh at Paul's "Helen from the Treasury Office?" line later in the episode.

I was surprised but liked that Konstantin turned back when Dasha asked him to stay, and enjoyed their "parents who disagree how to bring up their child" dynamic re: Villanelle. That was a nice scene and decent sendoff for Dasha. Though Dasha, honey, I'm going to suggest that the fact that you're in this hospital bed means Konstantin's approach to handling Villanelle worked a bit better.

Eve and Villanelle in the dance hall was uh-may-zing. So much complexity to their relationship, so many layers. You can see how they just get each other--Eve twigged immediately that Villanelle was really, really off. And I think Eve gave herself away, first when she went to dance first (which was clearly to cheer Villanelle up) and then when Villanelle asked if Eve wanted to be like the older couples--I don't think Villanelle meant "you and I" but a more general abstract "do you want that?" Yet Eve totally interpreted it as about them (and Villanelle's little grin after that confirmation was everything). I TOTALLY want to see them consume each other! Also Eve's increasingly weirded out looks as Villanelle got more and more morose at the table were everything, as was their little "Are you leading or am I?!" kerfuffle (only for Eve, I think, to end up leading). And then Villanelle looked so forlorn and lonely when she sent Eve away to protect her, and some excellent acting by Jodie Comer--you could see Villanelle visibly struggle to be her "normal" self with Rhian.

I can't believe I forgot to mention "Tallulah Shark," Eve's adorably fumbling attempts to bribe someone, and deadpan "I'm in disguise." Just hilarious. Sandra Oh has great comedic chops.

Konstantin and Eve's never-ending mutual loathing never fails to crack me up. They just have such disdain for each other and don't bother to hide it, it's awesome. And Villanelle with the Bitter Pill crew was such a highlight. "Everyone at your work is so WEIRD!" indeed!

That bridge scene remains EVERYTHING. So much going on there. Eve looks at Villanelle like she holds all the secrets to the universe and I can't get enough. Really excited and curious to see where S4 goes!

Oh, and tunefind tells me that the song that played as Carolyn held the gun to Konstantin's head was the same one that played when Bill died. Nice touch, show!

Edited June 2, 2020 by stealinghome

[Arkay]

What's everyone's interpretation of the title, now that we've seen all three seasons?

When I first saw the pilot, I naturally took it very literally---this crazy Villanelle lady assassin was going to hunt down Eve, the title character, and try to kill her. Well, that would have ended the show quickly, so I figured the fun would be in the back-and-forth, who's the hunter and who's the prey kind of thing.

By now, (long before now), it's obvious that Villanelle has metaphorically killed the Eve who existed at the beginning of the show. I like that the show is twisted and not a cops and robbers kind of thing, but I really do hate seeing Eve's life so subsumed by Villanelle. It's like there really isn't an Eve anymore. Eve reminds me of an abused wife who constantly forgives the most atrocious, heinous acts just to be near the one she thinks will make her life more exciting. 

I think their relationship is very inequitable. For all Villanelle's hair-sniffing and lingering glances, it's she who pulls all the strings. Eve may have had a quirky marriage and an unhappy career at MI5, but she's been turned inside out by Villanelle.  She's really lost everything. Villanelle's psychotic nature doesn't allow her to "love" Eve. Eve is just another thing Villanelle desires to play with and possess for awhile.  She's commanded Eve from the beginning, sending her clothes to dress Eve as Villanelle does, distancing Eve from Niko, all the way to the last scene where she tells Eve how to separate from her. 

So I see how Eve has been "killed" so far, but it's "The Villanelle Show," with Eve as the sidekick. 

ETA: I always liked the title graphic, with the drop of blood rolling down a letter. Now I wonder if it's a tear.

I know I'm overthinking, because I've been stuck in my apartment for nearly three months due to the pandemic. 

 

Edited June 2, 2020 by Arkay

[ElectricBoogaloo]

1 hour ago, stealinghome said:

Konstantin and Eve's never-ending mutual loathing never fails to crack me up. They just have such disdain for each other and don't bother to hide it, it's awesome.

But one thing I loved in this episode was that as soon as Eve saw Konstantin, the first thing she asked was why he wasn't in (the) hospital. She may loathe him but she was still concerned that he was running around instead of recuperating. And when he clutched at his chest, instead of suspecting that he was faking it in order to get close enough to snatch the nesting dolls (which was what I assumed), she immediately moved in to let him lean on her and asked if he was okay. I know you could chalk it up to Eve's naïveté but it was a nice contrast to her putting her foot on Dasha. It showed that most of the time, Eve's instinct is to be kind and not to immediately suspect someone of being fake (unless she knows that you tried to kill her husband). To be fair, it also showed why she wouldn't be a great field agent since they are constantly on their guard and suspicious of everyone they interact with.

Edited June 2, 2020 by ElectricBoogaloo

[lidarose9]

Really, it took 3 of them to kill Dasha: Villanelle with the golf club, Eve with her foot, and whatever Konstantin did just before walking away from her bed. 

[scrb]

Things that I remember mainly about this episode is that they got to shoot inside Royal Albert Hall and on the Tower Bridge.

And a Tube station.

They’re setting up V. trying to get out next season, but probably not allowed?

Still doesn’t seem like V. will have a normal life, even if she looked wistfully at that old couple in the dance hall.

 

By now, if not many episodes ago, Eve/Sandra Oh is way eclipsed by V./JC.

In fact I’d say I like seeing Constantin and Carolyn more than Eve.  Not a strong season for that character.

[william0102]

1 hour ago, scrb said:

 

In fact I’d say I like seeing Constantin and Carolyn more than Eve.  Not a strong season for that character.

That's always been the problem with this show. I think the audience is supposed to identify with Eve. We go on this mystery, murder, intrigue! journey- but they have screwed up making Eve sympathetic to a majority of their audience since the beginning. I want to preface the rest of this post by explaining that I only watched this season because of quarantine, and I was mostly hate watching it because like I said, the writers screwed up their titular character in the first season.

They went too fast with having her become obsessed with V, with no explanation as to why. I think most of us assumed it was because she was bored with her life, that she wanted more excitement. Great, fine, good motive, show us that show. But they didn't. They had her hold on to her husband for so long, try to "keep" her old life, that it just muddied everything.

Then in season 2 it was really the V show because they had to keep building on the mythos of The 12. Fine, great, I love mystery, don't sacrifice your supposed main character for that though? If they were worried as V coming off as to "one note" they could have introduced anything about V's past to make it more interesting. They could have shown the audience "yes, yes she is a psychopath" or "nope, she's a sociopath cuz of x,y,z" Although, most sociopaths who kill, are triggered by a stress event, and V was not, especially since she continues to kill for money. And with Eve, all we got was her being pathetic and looking like an indecisive, wishy washy person who couldn't decide if "catching" V is more important or her old life.

 At least this season, Eve had a clear path, unfortunately it was waylaid by the need to drag out the stupid stuff about Konstantin stealing the money. Why, show? Why do you do this to your main character? I don't even know how to explain V's stuff this season, other than maybe wave a magic wand and pretend her stuff for season 2 didn't happen. Cuz here's the thing: V is a psychopath, she can't have feelings for other people. If she wanted Eve in her orbit, it's only because Eve validates something that V enjoys. Eve doesn't like her killing. Eve tried to kill her. Eve does like excitement, but again, Eve tried to kill her. There's no way V should have been "giving up" Eve on that bridge. She shouldn't be able to understand that she screwed Eve's life. If anything, she should have become obsessed with killing Eve after Eve shot her. Either way, for me, they need to stick with a diagnosis for V and just write her character better. Am I supposed to assume that maybe V would have become a model in Russia if she hadn't been a psychopath? idk if she was joking or not about maybe having become an interior decorator, fine let's go with that. Show us her decorating a house or something instead of trying to go back to a family that she won't have contact with ever again, and a killing mommy plot that makes no sense because V is a freaking killer and doesn't feel emotions those plots require.

There's just too many different ways they could take Eve, I won't even bother suggesting any. Besides I liked that she finally made a choice, but only after her stupid husband told her to eff off (again) and she lost her job. Once again having their main character not moving the plot, but rather being dragged along with it, like every other major moment in her life. The one thing I will say, is that it does make sense that she chose V this time. I liked that. 

[Lamima]

8 hours ago, Arkay said:

What's everyone's interpretation of the title, now that we've seen all three seasons?

When I first saw the pilot, I naturally took it very literally---this crazy Villanelle lady assassin was going to hunt down Eve, the title character, and try to kill her. Well, that would have ended the show quickly, so I figured the fun would be in the back-and-forth, who's the hunter and who's the prey kind of thing.

By now, (long before now), it's obvious that Villanelle has metaphorically killed the Eve who existed at the beginning of the show. I like that the show is twisted and not a cops and robbers kind of thing, but I really do hate seeing Eve's life so subsumed by Villanelle. It's like there really isn't an Eve anymore. Eve reminds me of an abused wife who constantly forgives the most atrocious, heinous acts just to be near the one she thinks will make her life more exciting. 

I think their relationship is very inequitable. For all Villanelle's hair-sniffing and lingering glances, it's she who pulls all the strings. Eve may have had a quirky marriage and an unhappy career at MI5, but she's been turned inside out by Villanelle.  She's really lost everything. Villanelle's psychotic nature doesn't allow her to "love" Eve. Eve is just another thing Villanelle desires to play with and possess for awhile.  She's commanded Eve from the beginning, sending her clothes to dress Eve as Villanelle does, distancing Eve from Niko, all the way to the last scene where she tells Eve how to separate from her. 

So I see how Eve has been "killed" so far, but it's "The Villanelle Show," with Eve as the sidekick. 

ETA: I always liked the title graphic, with the drop of blood rolling down a letter. Now I wonder if it's a tear.

I know I'm overthinking, because I've been stuck in my apartment for nearly three months due to the pandemic. 

 

Totally agree with this but I, personally, hope that Eve is allowing V to THINK she is slowly killing her (controlling her). All the while Eve is playing the long game. But maybe not. 

Like Eve knows if she can work V that she can get to the top. But to work the brilliant and psycho V she has to go slowly and convince V. Very slowly and very very convincingly. 

[chaifan]

I need an MI6/KGB/12 chart to keep this all straight.  Was Paul in The 12, or did Carolyn accuse him of that to take the focus off her possibly being in The 12?  Was he joking that he didn't know who Helene was?  If he was serious, does that mean he's not in The 12, or Helene (and therefore Dasha and V and Konstantin) aren't in The 12?  What the hell is The 12 anyways? 

I can buy Konstantin's explanation of Kenny.  V had a point - he doesn't kill people.  I could easily be wrong, though.  But why in the world would they go up to the roof, for any reason?  "Hey, kid, I'm a known agent of an organization of Russian assassins.  I need to have a chat with you.  Let's go up to the roof."  "OK."  I do love the character, though.  I think they made him a little more bumbling than necessary this season, but I love every scene he's in.

I do not like how comfortable they made Eve with V.  As others have noted, it goes against her basic nature.  V killed Eve's friend, Bill.  V shot Eve, with the intent to kill.  V put Niko in grave danger purposely (season 2 - I won't blame her for Dasha's actions).  I really didn't see the point in V and Eve meeting in the dance hall - what was the purpose for the meeting? 

I did love V &  Carolyn's meeting at RAH (such a gorgeous setting!).  Carolyn's right - what would "Oksana" do for MI6 if Villanelle the assassin was left behind?  And unless V has been seriously banking away her kill money, I doubt an MI6 salary would satisfy her for long.  I do not believe that V's desire to stop killing will hold for any length of time.  "I want to stop killing."  Kills mom & step family.  "I want to stop killing."  Attempts to kill Dasha.  "I want to stop killing."  Kills Jr. Assassin.  Yeah, it just never seems to take, does it?

And I still don't understand why MI6/Eve is content with leaving an international assassin out on the streets, despite a gazillion opportunities to have her arrested and put in jail.  She killed Bill, an MI6 employee, yet MI6 doesn't care.  They dealt with this a bit in season 2, but explained it away because they "needed" her to catch the other bad guy.  This season?  crickets. 

And, despite all the above, I really do love this show.  Is it perfect?  No.  But it is something different than everything else out there, and it has incredible actors, and gorgeous scenery and clothing, and makes me laugh. 

 

[CrazyInAlabama]

I think the reason V. killed the junior assassin was she figured that Helene, and the 12 would send her after V. and probably others.    I don't think Carolyn works for the 12, but she doesn't know who actually does, like the late, unlamented Paul (I loathed Paul).     

I think Konstantin is a free lance who works for the 12, and supervised V., but now that the 12 know he stole the money, and ran from them, he's going to be in trouble.   Paul was definitely 12.   I bet Helene probably is 12 also, but she's seriously creepy whoever she works for. 

I've been thinking about Konstantin/Kenny, and I think Konstantin lured Kenny up to the roof, and someone else killed Kenny.    I suspect I know who did that, but I'm not saying.   

Edited June 3, 2020 by CrazyInAlabama

[MicheleinPhilly]

10 hours ago, stealinghome said:

But that all said: how does Carolyn know of Helene's existence? She clearly knows more about T12 than she ever lets on.... I did also laugh at Paul's "Helen from the Treasury Office?" line later in the episode.

 

Eve and Villanelle in the dance hall was uh-may-zing. So much complexity to their relationship, so many layers. You can see how they just get each other--Eve twigged immediately that Villanelle was really, really off. And I think Eve gave herself away, first when she went to dance first (which was clearly to cheer Villanelle up) and then when Villanelle asked if Eve wanted to be like the older couples--I don't think Villanelle meant "you and I" but a more general abstract "do you want that?" Yet Eve totally interpreted it as about them (and Villanelle's little grin after that confirmation was everything). I TOTALLY want to see them consume each other! Also Eve's increasingly weirded out looks as Villanelle got more and more morose at the table were everything, as was their little "Are you leading or am I?!" kerfuffle (only for Eve, I think, to end up leading). And then Villanelle looked so forlorn and lonely when she sent Eve away to protect her, and some excellent acting by Jodie Comer--you could see Villanelle visibly struggle to be her "normal" self with Rhian.

 

That bridge scene remains EVERYTHING. So much going on there. Eve looks at Villanelle like she holds all the secrets to the universe and I can't get enough. Really excited and curious to see where S4 goes!

 

From Season 1 I've always twigged that Carolyn is either a member of The 12 or connected to them in some way that is not, "I work for MI6 and therefore must stop this nefarious criminal organization." There is just something about her that I've never trusted and I always wonder whenever Eve comes to her with a "Listen to what new information I've figured out about The 12!" if Carolyn is thinking, "Oh for pete's sake - took you long enough to figure that out." Like did Carolyn put Eve onto Villanelle/The 12 as a way to keep tabs on what MI5/6 knows/how close they are/next steps, etc. Just a theory I've had since series 1. 

Eve automatically assuming that Villanelle was referring to them growing old together immediately took me back to Eve's conversation with Kenny in episode 1 when he asked if she was still "in touch with..." and she immediately assumed he was referring to Villanelle, not Niko. Girl's got it bad and always has. Does it make sense in the context of how Villanelle has "ruined her life", killed Bill, etc.? Of course not, but I love it.

The show has obviously had different writers and showrunners and gets renewed on a 1-2 off basis so I don't think there was ever any GRAND PLAN for a 4 series story but I wonder how much this seemingly romantic direction has been influenced by the sheer amount of chemistry that Oh and Comer have. I know that there are certain segments of the viewing audience that think it is simply "fan service" or "fan fiction" but for me the chemistry is absolutely undeniable. I am mesmerized when they share scenes together even if they are being total goofballs like at Paul's house. 

[stealinghome]

Quote

I need an MI6/KGB/12 chart to keep this all straight.  Was Paul in The 12, or did Carolyn accuse him of that to take the focus off her possibly being in The 12?  Was he joking that he didn't know who Helene was?  If he was serious, does that mean he's not in The 12, or Helene (and therefore Dasha and V and Konstantin) aren't in The 12?  What the hell is The 12 anyways? 

No, Paul was legitimately a member of T12. That was confirmed an episode or two ago when he's waiting for Konstantin in Konstantin's bedroom in the dark (the first instance of that running gag) and is like "you need to find the missing money ASAP."

Carolyn figured out that Paul was a member when her friend at the coroner's office (I think) said he'd sent files to her ages ago and they "got lost" so he gave her the hard copies. She'd never received the e-files, and the clear implication was that Paul was hiding them and trying to obstruct her investigation. That's when they have that great "Are you a member?" "Are YOU?" face-off in the office.

I am not surprised that Paul didn't know who Helene was. I don't think every member of T12's organization knows each other. Which is only logical--if you're helping run a shadowy global syndicate that has probably hundreds of operatives around the world, do you reveal yourself to every rank-and-file person the organization employs, or do you just leave it at "this person's boss gives them orders and is the only person they know"? I imagine T12 is split into a number of cells so if one person is discovered/flips/whatever, there is only so much they can reveal.

The show always wants us to wonder about Carolyn's true loyalties, as it's always hinting that she knows way more than she lets on (for example she knows of Helene without being told), but I think it would be illogical for Carolyn to be a full-fledged member because...then why would she have brought T12 to Eve's attention in the first place? Why open any investigation into them at all? Isn't that just drawing attention to something that would otherwise fly under the radar? The only way that works for me is if Carolyn is somehow part of a "splinter faction" of T12 that wants to overthrow the original T12 and supplant it. But even then, recruiting Eve way back when to track down Villanelle seems an unnecessarily roundabout way of doing business--like to what end would that be done? With that said though, I DEFINITELY do think Carolyn knows/suspects way more about T12 than she ever lets on, and holds that information in for her own purposes.

[chaifan]

I guess I took "The 12" literally, and always assumed there were 12 top people (with a lot of minions under them).  Paul would have been one, Helene would have been one.  So that's why the "who is Helene" line stood out to me.  As if there's another twist to come as far as who is playing for whom. 

Still, an organization chart would come in handy.  🙂 

[kieyra]

3 hours ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

I think the reason V. killed the junior assassin was she figured that Helene, and the 12 would send her after V. and probably others.

I think she was just mad that Inept Assassin called her a sheep. 

[dubbel zout]

19 minutes ago, kieyra said:

I think she was just mad that Inept Assassin called her a sheep. 

I agree. V never liked her independence taken away from her.

[roughing it]

12 hours ago, lidarose9 said:

Really, it took 3 of them to kill Dasha: Villanelle with the golf club, Eve with her foot, and whatever Konstantin did just before walking away from her bed. 

I would have to watch this part again, but when Konstantin was holding Dascha's hand it looked like he pinched the IV that was attached to her wrist, thus cutting off whatever was being administered to her.

[Loandbehold]

25 minutes ago, kieyra said:

I think she was just mad that Inept Assassin called her a sheep. 

I think this is one of the reasons. V didn't complete her mission on the golf course - whether it was to kill the American or Dascha. The 12 don't suffer failures well, so I also think V knew her next meeting w/ Helene wouldn't go as well as the prior one did. Helene might no longer her agent of chaos, nor touch her inappropriately again. So, she looked for an opportune time to kill Rhian. Didn't exactly go the way she might have wanted, but she did succeed and avoid being brought to Helene.

As for Carolyn, there has definitely been hints dropped since Season 1 that she might be part of The 12. If she is, how high up? I agree with stealinghome's analysis that most of the people who work for The 12 only know a few others in the organization. If there are actually 12 people at the top, they are probably the only ones who know who all are. (Of course, by now, this could be like some of the college conferences where there are eleven teams in the Big 10, so maybe there are 15 people at the top of The 12.) If Carolyn is part of The 12, how high up is she? A Keeper? Someone like Konstantin and Dascha who run assassins? Helene seemed to be above Dascha, but she was also in charge of Rhian.

1 hour ago, chaifan said:

Still, an organization chart would come in handy.  🙂 

Absolutely.

[roughing it]

4 minutes ago, Loandbehold said:

As for Carolyn, there definitely been hints dropped since Season 1 that she might be part of The 12. If she is, how high up?

My guess?  All the way up, like the ringleader.

[enoughcats]

Could Carolyn's daughter be very aware, want acess to the money, and be planning a coup to take over the 12? 

[CrazyInAlabama]

I wonder if Carolyn's daughter Geraldine is a lot more involved than she has been shown.   I suspect she is.  

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Are you leading or am I?

 

[Arkay]

Don't know if anyone is till reading this, but I need a break from all the awful news that's been on. So I started to think about dangling threads from this show.

One thought that I had---in the penultimate episode, when Dasha said she had a son who'd hold her hand when she died, I figured that it's true she has a son, and she was giving a double dig to Villanelle. One, that Villanelle is set to die alone. And two, that the embattled relationship between Dasha and Villanelle has that hint of parent/child, and this was intended to hurt Villanelle.  

However, when Dasha was in the hospital bed, begging Konstantin to come back and saying she wished she could be with her son, Konstantin told her to forget about that, she was going to die in that bed. That her son was brought up a second time has me pondering. Someone we know? Maybe Paul? Or just a loose thread that will never again be mentioned?

[seacliffsal]

35 minutes ago, Arkay said:

Don't know if anyone is till reading this, but I need a break from all the awful news that's been on. So I started to think about dangling threads from this show.

One thought that I had---in the penultimate episode, when Dasha said she had a son who'd hold her hand when she died, I figured that it's true she has a son, and she was giving a double dig to Villanelle. One, that Villanelle is set to die alone. And two, that the embattled relationship between Dasha and Villanelle has that hint of parent/child, and this was intended to hurt Villanelle.  

However, when Dasha was in the hospital bed, begging Konstantin to come back and saying she wished she could be with her son, Konstantin told her to forget about that, she was going to die in that bed. That her son was brought up a second time has me pondering. Someone we know? Maybe Paul? Or just a loose thread that will never again be mentioned?

Interesting idea.  It could also be a plot point-he is after both Villanelle AND Eve as they contributed to his mother's death, so now they HAVE to team up to defeat him...

[MicheleinPhilly]

16 hours ago, seacliffsal said:

Interesting idea.  It could also be a plot point-he is after both Villanelle AND Eve as they contributed to his mother's death, so now they HAVE to team up to defeat him...

I'm of the opinion that it is a plot point that will never be mentioned again. Just based on what we've seen in previous series, they don't seem to spend a lot of time examining things that were brought up in the past. ALTHOUGH I think of all of the writers, Laura has a pretty good grasp on this (e.g. Eve finally asking Carolyn what she spoke to Villanelle about in the prison in series 1) so it is certainly possible. 

I just took all of those mentions of her son as further reinforcement that Villanelle is alone and has no one that cares for her/relies on her. I think it was just really driving home the overarching theme of the season. 

[BookThief]

So I just got through this season and I'm not great remembering past plot points, so could someone remind me why Villanelle is not arrested on sight? Was something said or done in previous seasons that allows her to show up at their office and...nothing. Just curious staring. Is it to have an idea what The Twelve is doing? Is it because of Eve? Is it because the storyline necessitates Villanelle being out and about?

[Samwise979]

This episode upset me. I wasn't upset while watching it but I couldn't sleep afterwards and had weird dreams. I don't like that Konstantin was responsible for Kenny's death, even if it was an accident. And especially because it was implied that he might be Kenny's father. 

I don't know if the writers were actually writing a redemption story or if it was all in my mind but, I was really going along with a Konstantin redemption story. He was introduced as a bad guy but we were clearly shown not all is how it seems and I thought there might be a chance that he was good. And although he spent the whole season telling everyone he was a prick/asshole/bad guy he didn't really do anything that bad plus the heart attack made me sympathize with him a lot. His big hearty laughs made him seem like a loveable guy. Then all of a sudden it's like, BAM! So you thought he was a good guy? Guess again. 

Then the part where he's begging Villanelle to help him when Caroline had the gun to his head and Villanelle is just watching avidly with an excited grin on her face - yet the scene when he had the heart attack she was quite heartfelt when she said she didn't want him to die... Idk. It just effected me I guess. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

Awesome/ridiculous outfits

[Ohwell]

I'd like to see her break away on a run in those ridiculous outfits.  The drag would slow her down, or the shoes would break her ankles. LOL

[Aulty]

How does V get away with all those messy murders? She never cleans up after herself. And that scene in the tube station with the other girl? Tube stations are stuffed with cameras.

Do I just gave to assume that 'someone' makes sure all investigations hit a dead end?

[lcarolynl]

I finally finished the season last night. I was a little disappointed in the ending. When V and E are talking on the bridge, E says something like I want it to stop. I thought she was talking about the 12, wanting to stop them after all they have killed. But then V tells her to stand up straight and they walk away from each other? For good? 
When they both turned around to look at each other, I wanted Eve to ask, "Are we family?"
And I wonder, from V's POV, are they family? I think so. 

I think we will see more of Geraldine ahead. She is two different people. With her mother she is the simpering vegetarian. Even when she knew her mother craved a pork pie, she stayed the course with her character and made veggie stew. With Constantine she is a steak eater.

I absolutely loved V's yellow coat in the final scenes. I usually enjoy her sartorial choices from an "isn't that interesting?" angle but that coat, oh that coat!!! I want that coat and I want to look like V while wearing that coat!!

[Scofflaw]

I can't tell a lie...I bought a bag of Haribo TangFastics after watching this episode. I'm so suggestible. 

[paramitch]

On 5/31/2020 at 7:31 PM, stealinghome said:

Seriously, Bear couldn’t have checked his damn camera before now? That plot point was too convenient. 

This. But then, all of the writing on the B-plots felt inconsistent to me this season, from the mystery of Kenny's death, to The Twelve, etc. There's been some beautiful stuff, seriously. But so much of it has had zero to do with the greater character arcs -- at least, for me.

On 5/31/2020 at 7:47 PM, Chaos Theory said:

“I think my monster  encourages your monster” 

“I think I wanted it to.”

If ever there was a perfect description of Eve and Villanelle it is that.

 I liked this too. I also liked it when it was the subtext of basically the fifth episode of season 1. So for it to be spoken aloud here didn't feel like progress to me. We didn't learn anything from that.

On 5/31/2020 at 10:56 PM, Arkay said:

Oh, another underwhelming thing that many of you mentioned...how this extensive investigation into Kenny's murder, on the part of Eve and Bitter Pill, just went POOF! Oops, Bear neglected to look at his footage. Hasn't it been awhile since Kenny died? It seems very out of character for Bear to do all this fancy high-tech sifting through phone records and all this other evidence, only to have the evidence all along in the most obvious place. That's a lazy TV trope. 

The entire Bitter Pill situation was laughably "TV Drama, Because" stuff. We never saw other reporters there. There was no sign the "magazine" was editorially publishing stories, investigating or producing/online printing, or making any kind of money, and yet it supported at least 4 full-time salaries--? Beyond that, was Eve ever EMPLOYED by Bitter Pill? I mean, at one point she was sleeping and eating there and everyone just kind of brushed it off (until she went to stay with the editor, which again -- WTF?). And if not, what was their reason for working with her? Were they working on an actual story? Who was the reporter on the piece? Were they going to publish something about the revelations about Kenny's death? I mean, come on. So embarrassingly bad. It falls apart. It doesn't feel real. It feels like "Well, I have a deadline and I have to write a show about an online magazine now, so I hope nobody looks too closely."

On 6/1/2020 at 4:10 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Eve and Villanelle's talk on the bridge was great. They were finally both being honest with themselves and with each other. I loved the Eurydice/Orpheus ending.

Sandra Oh and Jodie Comer are always amazing, and they have great chemistry. But I was instantly furious at the bridge scene because I already knew what we would get -- more queerbaiting, more atmosphere, no resolution. 

I'm not saying I'm really even shipping V and Eve. I think they'd be terrible together long-term. But I do think they'd have a pretty amazing weekend (or weeks or months) of screwing each other's brains out before each decided the relationship would never work. Neither V or Eve is a shy person. The fact that the show is playing coy with the audience like this after three years is ultimately insulting. It's blatantly artificial and assumes the audience is too dumb to see the machinations, and that drives me nuts.

On 6/1/2020 at 12:06 PM, eXiled said:

Modern television's infatuation with reforming psychopaths is so off the mark. That shit ruined Luther for me (cause his thing with Alice reminds me of this mess!) and I could never take Dexter seriously because of his supposed "code."

I actually agree with this -- to an extent. I'd add that I don't think Dexter is a true sociopath, and my jury is out on Alice, because I fricking love her (way, way more than Villanelle, honestly, because she feels much more real). But I agree that there is no actual real romantic love here. There's lust, but not love.

On 6/1/2020 at 2:30 PM, kieyra said:

I understand the desire to create romance out of the idea of a person who can’t feel love or empathy suddenly figuring out how to be a real human being, but that doesn’t mean it should be done. 

Yeah, this. I feel like this season was about the show bending over backward to try to make V lovable, to go, "look how traumatized she is," when that's not the person we met in Season 1. I'm not saying that means she WASN'T that traumatized person, I'm just saying that the game-change, for me, doesn't work. It's the show trying to back away on Villanelle's gleeful psychopathy in S1, softening her up so it's okay for us to root for her.

On 6/8/2020 at 10:09 AM, Samwise979 said:

Then the part where he's begging Villanelle to help him when Caroline had the gun to his head and Villanelle is just watching avidly with an excited grin on her face - yet the scene when he had the heart attack she was quite heartfelt when she said she didn't want him to die... Idk. It just effected me I guess. 

This has been my main problem with season 2 and again here in 3. Villanelle increasingly feels like a construct -- she's what the writers need her to be. Childish, charming, lethal, scary, sexy, vulnerable, kind, etc.

Which is why I disliked this season, even though I don't think it was a bad season of TV. The writing was often good, at least on a superficial level. It was all very clever, and I did enjoy some of the show's exploration of parents and children, and the struggle for those connections (and how children break free of toxic parents while others parents agonize over who their toxic children become -- and where that came from -- etc.). 

But the show's formula is showing now for me and it's like pulling the curtain on the Wizard. All I can see now is window-dressing and repeated motifs, and none of them age well.

I’m not exactly done with the show (I will totally keep watching -- it's silly fun) but it feels to me like it’s pretty much just queerbaiting all wrapped up in wonderful actresses (especially Oh, Comer, and Shaw)  and production values, plus some seriously dumb “super-secret-conclave” stuff that I don’t care about at all. I mean, this stuff makes the "Rambaldi" stuff on "Alias" look like Shakespeare -- it's all so incestuous now, so intertwined, and while I still love Carolyn (thank you Fiona Shaw), just wow, I really miss Phoebe Waller-Bridge's touch on the show, where S1 had a functioning MI-6 cell doing spywork, Carolyn was amazing and respected, and it actually felt like a show about spies, and not a derivative fairytale about shadow governments and world conquest.

Anyway. The increasing presence of “The Twelve” has honestly had me yawning my way through so many scenes, because it’s just silly window-dressing, meant to give side-characters something important-looking to do while V and Eve circle each other from afar and never, ever, move forward or backward in a definitive way. Literally. And while I care about some of the side characters, like Carolyn, Kenny, or Konstantin (guardedly) or Bill in S1 (before he was written to be a complete idiot so that he could die on cue), the show keeps giving me terrible writing to resolve their issues, so that I lose that connection. How does someone “forget” they had a camera in the office at the (cough) most paranoid and respected online publication around, until the season finale? Why give us obvious or erratically unresolved plots for supporting characters, just because they aren’t Eve or V? How in the world does Konstantin’s daughter ALSO turn out to be an unrepentant murdering psychopath? (I liked her so much more when she was just a grumpy teenager.)

So when this season ended with V and Eve on the bridge, and the two separate but looking back longingly, I laughed out loud. Because, of course.

There is NO WAY that these women — who are openly romantically obsessed with each other for years now — wouldn’t have had some kind of romantic contact (we already know they are demonstrably not aro/ace). So each season is built on an insulting formula -- it gives viewers another tantalizing little sliver to keep them going. S1 with the final talk on the bed. S2 with the Italy confrontation (with, of course, zero contact). This season? We got an unsexy kiss that felt like a distraction ploy, and then a dance (and I know many, many people swooned at that dance, but I couldn't -- it's just more teasing).

And after three years, just no. If this couple were heterosexual, I do not think these same artificial barriers would have been applied, or the almost laughable efforts to ensure that the two characters we are most invested in are kept apart until (of course) each finale.

You want to know the dialogue moment that riveted me the most this season? It was episode one. When Carolyn confronts Kenny in their last talk together, where he asks for independence, threatens to move out, she teases him but gives a little (showing a quiet love for his rebelliousness), and they agree on dinner. It was a lovely, brilliant, bittersweet moment to look back on. Nothing else has quite measured up for me.

Thanks for the discussions throughout the seasons, as always, everyone! It was fun to catch up and then read here during the holidays.

Edited January 3, 2021 by paramitch
referred to "printing" when I meant "producing stories"