S03.E08: Are You Leading or Am I?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

SEASON FINALE!

Quote

TBA

Promo:

Original air date: 5/31/20

Edited May 25, 2020 by ElectricBoogaloo

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Sneak peek:

 

[enoughcats]

I feel as if we should all dress up in our most outlandish/closest to designer duds, just to see this last episode of this season.  

[Wicked]

Did not want it to be over!

[Ramona]

Was that the final season, or will there be a 4th?

[Ramona]

5 minutes ago, Ramona said:

Was that the final season, or will there be a 4th?

Nevermind, I found out.  I liked this season.  I know there are a lot of plot holes, but overall I thought it was a strong season.  I was really hoping Eve and Villanelle would smooch on that bridge, but that was still a very bittersweet ending.  Hope we don't have to wait too long for S4

[Valny]

1 minute ago, Ramona said:

Was that the final season, or will there be a 4th?

Yes, a fourth is coming...but who knows when! a year and a half? Two?  Grrr.

I know V didn't do it, but I was so scared Konstantine was going to say V really killed Kenny.

I thought that dancing scene may have been a dream. omg it was weird seeing them slow dance, it was like a fanfic or something! But I got a kick out of it once I got over the shock. 🙂

Glad V told Eve she didn't want to live this life anymore.  I liked the ending on the bridge. I knew when she told Eve to turn around they would walk away from each other,but I didn't think they would stop and turn around.   Where do they go from here???

 

[stealinghome]

I missed the first 15 minutes, but still, what an episode! What a last scene!

I don’t for a second believe that Konstantin was trying to talk to Kenny and Kenny “accidentally” fell. I think Konstantin panicked because Kenny was getting so close to figuring out Konstantin was stealing the money and tossed him over. And Carolyn clearly thinks the same thing.

I SO enjoyed Eve and Villanelle as the childish interlopers in the Carolyn/Konstantin/Paul drama. (Though it also highlighted the structural problem of the show this season—Eve and Villanelle were secondary to what became the main plots all season.) that was a great scene—the closest we’ve ever seen Carolyn to breaking. It was just powerful. I’m not surprised she couldn’t kill Konstantin though (but color me shocked he survived the season). I wonder if that was an open-ended way of writing Konstantin off...his two big ties (Carolyn and Villanelle) have now effectively been severed. But he’s not dead so could come back whenever if they want him.

If she’s not a nefarious mastermind, what was the point of Geraldine this season other than to give Carolyn a scene partner? We already know Carolyn is emotionally constipated. I couldn’t tell if she kicked Geraldine out out of concern for Geraldine’s safety, because she’s over her, or some combination thereof.

What they have done with Villanelle this season is fascinating. I loved her in that last scene—what a contrast with last season’s final scene. She wants out now, she kind of gets where Eve is coming from (and is evolving to understand even more), and tried her hardest to NOT bring Eve down to her level. She was the one who said they should walk away. It’s now really Eve who can’t let go. They had such a frank and lovely conversation...this show just soars when Oh and Comer share the screen. NOW is the time to elope to Alaska, you two!!

Seriously, Bear couldn’t have checked his damn camera before now? That plot point was too convenient. Oh, and I did enjoy Villanelle playing the bogeyman to the Bitter Pill crew. I do love Villanelle having fun with people.

I can’t believe we may have to wait two years to come back to the show after THAT ending!!! It somehow is the worst cliffhanger of all three seasons!

Edited June 1, 2020 by stealinghome

[Valny]

1 hour ago, Valny said:

.

 

 

OMG, Jodie Comer had me cracking up tonight, probably like season one level. I need to rewatch to remember everything but stuff like when she was talking to the three at the Bitter Pill and they are kind of scared of her, there is a lull in the conversation as they are staring at her, then suddenly she says something really loud like it's been fun and has to go,and they kind of jump when she says it. oh man, so funny.
 

Quote

 "Seriously, Bear couldn’t have checked his damn camera before now?"

Didn't he said he couldn't access it because it was on the cloud or something?
 

Quote

"what was the point of Geraldine this season other than to give Carolyn a scene partner?"

It really was pointless and we did not need her storyline, waste of a good actress. Although I did crack up tonight when Caroline pulled that journal out with the blank pages and pretended that she had written something to Geraldine.  🙂    What did she say again?, "it's time for Geraldine to leave" or something like that. That cracked me up too. 

Edited June 1, 2020 by Valny

[Chaos Theory]

“I think my monster  encourages your monster” 

“I think I wanted it to.”

If ever there was a perfect description of Eve and Villanelle it is that.

Hey a season finale where they aren’t trying to kill each other.   Progress?   Emotional growth?

 

 

Edited June 1, 2020 by Chaos Theory

[MJ Frog]

Konstantin killed Kenny. That bastard.

Well, I know a lot of people were down on this season, but I actually enjoyed it more than the last. Jodie Comer continues to amaze. Her facial expressions alone when sitting on the couch in the next to last scene had me fascinated, and laughing out loud at times. It may not be particularly realistic (what in this show is) but Villanelle did have to evolve in some way to remain interesting and I am really enjoying it, and her relationship with Eve. This is the first time I have felt any real sympathy for Villanelle, and actually liked her beyond being an entertaining psychopath. And this is the first time I have ever really shipped those two. That whole last scene -- I'm so glad they turned around.

Edited June 1, 2020 by MJ Frog
To make it gooder.

[Ms Blue Jay]

1 hour ago, Wicked said:

Did not want it to be over!

I only have 1 show with new content currently airing left after this.  Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh 😩

56 minutes ago, Valny said:

I thought that dancing scene may have been a dream. omg it was weird seeing them slow dance, it was like a fanfic or something! But I got a kick out of it once I got over the shock. 🙂

It reminded me of Mulholland Drive!  The eeriness, how it felt dream-like, the manic smiles on people's faces.

I really liked that episode, but Jodie Comer can make anything brilliant.  I just with the seasons were twice as long (at least.)

I thought Caroline was confessing to being part of the 12?  I guess I read that all wrong.

Edited June 1, 2020 by Ms Blue Jay

[Ms Blue Jay]

44 minutes ago, stealinghome said:

What they have done with Villanelle this season is fascinating. I loved her in that last scene—what a contrast with last season’s final scene. She wants out now, she kind of gets where Eve is coming from (and is evolving to understand even more), and tried her hardest to NOT bring Eve down to her level. She was the one who said they should walk away. It’s now really Eve who can’t let go. They had such a frank and lovely conversation...this show just soars when Oh and Comer share the screen. NOW is the time to elope to Alaska, you two!!

Seriously, Bear couldn’t have checked his damn camera before now? That plot point was too convenient.

I love your paragraph here and I thought the same damn thing about the camera.  So dumb!

The clothes were soooooo good.  Villanelle's suit at the beginning of the episode reminded me of "The Shining".

Edited June 1, 2020 by Ms Blue Jay

[tennisgurl]

There is a whole lot to talk about with this episode and this season, which I thought was flawed but was a much better outing than season two, but I am currently obsessed with Eve and Villanelle just sitting there watching the drama unfolding between Carolyn and Konstantine like its their favorite Sunday night drama just getting to the next big twist. I half expected Villanelle to offer Eve some popcorn! 

[Loandbehold]

Count me in with those who still think Kenny was murdered. He seemed to fall far away from the building for someone who backed up too far and fell backwards. 

Loved V and Eve dancing and V's entire scene with Helene's pet assassin, Rhian. But the final two scenes - in Paul's apartment and then on the bridge - wow! From two kids watching the adults fight to two lovers deciding whether they should try to save their relationship. Just amazing work by both Jodie and Sandra. 

[Valny]

1 hour ago, Valny said:

 

I loved that we got to hear Eve telling V that she stepped on(crushed?) Dasha and V said that they both took part in killing her.  🙂  The whole bridge convo was so great to watch, it was nice to hear calm and reflective talk from them,which I never expected. And no head buttings anywhere! 

[Arkay]

I loved the scene where Eve and Villanelle plopped onto the couch simultaneously, and then, as many of you have said, acted like two stunned children watching the grown-ups fight. I did like that Villanelle showed Rhian what a true assassin is all about. I like that Villanelle had a season 1 sense of humor, menace, and smashing clothing.

I know I'm very much in the minority; but other than that, I was disappointed. I can't recall now what it was, but at the time Kenny was killed there was something that made it obvious that it was Konstantin. That part wasn't a surprise. Unlike almost everyone else, I am absolutely NOT in favor of this romance between Eve and Villanelle. I've not been on board ever since Villanelle killed Bill, and yet Eve became entranced instead of getting revenge. I much preferred the first season's chase, rather than this giddy stardust of Eve picturing a future with an assassin.

I'm also disappointed that Geraldine did in fact turn out to be just a time-suck. 

I'm confused about The Twelve, Paul, Helene, the reason for The Twelve, their mission and so on. 

Did Konstantin do something to Dasha when he listened to her pleading and came back and held her hand? I thought she begged him to come back because she had some nefarious way to kill him, but the way he grasped her hand and told her she'd die there, and then she did appear to die, made me wonder.

 

[Ms Blue Jay]

12 minutes ago, Arkay said:

I know I'm very much in the minority; but other than that, I was disappointed. I can't recall now what it was, but at the time Kenny was killed there was something that made it obvious that it was Konstantin.

Maybe that Kenny knew his murderer?

So, how does Kenny even know Konstantin?  I know that Konstantin and Caroline were "involved", but I thought that was before Kenny was born.

[Arkay]

42 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Maybe that Kenny knew his murderer?

So, how does Kenny even know Konstantin?  I know that Konstantin and Caroline were "involved", but I thought that was before Kenny was born.

My brain is on quarantine. I truly cannot recall what it was, but it was something specific at the time that made it seem like it was Konstantin. Maybe something with the timing, but I just don't remember. 

Kenny had to know Konstantin to some degree since he was able to call him and ask if Konstantin was his father.

Oh, another underwhelming thing that many of you mentioned...how this extensive investigation into Kenny's murder, on the part of Eve and Bitter Pill, just went POOF! Oops, Bear neglected to look at his footage. Hasn't it been awhile since Kenny died? It seems very out of character for Bear to do all this fancy high-tech sifting through phone records and all this other evidence, only to have the evidence all along in the most obvious place. That's a lazy TV trope. 

As much as many viewers seem to like the final bridge scene, I think that's also a tired TV trope. "Don't look back," and then they do. 

I adored the Russia episode with Villanelle's family. Now having seen the finale, much of this season seemed so pointless. Niko--dead, but not really. Konstantin-about to die several times, but not really. Rhian-- what's the point? To sharpen up Villanelle? Well, she's gone, Dasha's gone (although we learned a lot about V. So there was a point to that). What was the point of Villanelle's' wedding ceremony? We know there was no reason for Geraldine, unless to highlight Carolyn's coldness.

Sad that Carolyn could tell Konstantin that she had cared for him, but couldn't say that to her daughter. Mercy for him but not for Geraldine. 

 

[slf]

Well, I'm calling bullshit on that being the truth about Kenny's death. Setting aside the fact that Kenny didn't scream as he fell, which is odd no matter how he died (and if he was dead before he hit the ground you'd expect that would have come out in an autopsy), he landed parallel to the building he was pushed from. And in the video of him and Konstantin he isn't hesitant or scared and in fact leaves the room before Konstantin of his own will. Now, if we're supposed to think that the scene of Kenny at his desk earing footsteps (after Eve has called him to accept his iffer of drinks) immediately proceeds his death, there's the issue of his phone. Kenny sets the phone down on his desk yet Eve finds it on a large table by the window a good ten to twelve feet away from Kenny's desk.

Edited June 1, 2020 by slf

[Cranberry]

I don't think the loose ends of Kenny's death and Geraldine's presence are actually tied up. Do we know yet if Gemma Whelan will be back for season four?

I liked that bridge scene and I think it was a test. Villanelle was always going to turn around. But this time she didn't threaten Eve with a gun and demand she stay -- she gave her the choice to walk away. This time, for once in Villanelle's life, someone had the opportunity to leave and chose to stay with her instead.

Do I think Eve and Villanelle are going to have a harmonious fourth season and eventually ride off happily into the sunset? Hell no. I'm pretty sure the perfect ending for these two is dying together in the series finale... but honestly I'm here for it.

The three best episodes of this season -- 3, 7, and 8 -- were either written or co-written by next season's showrunner. This bodes well.

[FoundTime]

Loved the tie-in of the episode title at the end. First, "Are you leading or am I?" in the dancing scene perfectly encapsulated Eve and Villanelle's relationship. But then on the bridge, Villanelle turns away first, and Eve looks back first. Are you "leading" or am I?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

It only took most of the season, but we finally got more than few seconds of Eve and Villanelle together! Although it was really contrived to have them meet at a dance hall because that's where Villanelle killed her first mark, it was fun to see them fumbling with how to dance together and then just relaxing. Villanelle looked so happy when Eve said that they would consume each other.

I know I should feel bad about Villanelle killing Rhian, but it was hard to care about someone we'd only seen so briefly and who was so humorless.

I totally cracked up when Villanelle showed up at the Bitter Pill office and Jimmy, Bear, and Audrey just stared at her like she was an exhibit at the zoo. I loved that she could hear everything they were saying (they weren't exactly trying to be quiet) and I laughed when she walked up extra close to answer Bear's penis question before loudly thanking them. I totally laughed at the dawning realization on Audrey's face after Villanelle pointed to one of the photos on the murder board and said she didn't do that one.

Tallulah Shark is going to be name of my new band. I laughed when Bruce said he thought Eve would look more like a prostitute and she just said, "I'm in disguise."

I gasped when Carolyn saw the video of Konstantin outside the Bitter Pill office right before he died. That's gotta hurt.

But I giggled at Eve and Villanelle standing in the back of the room whispering to each other like little kids while Carolyn was trying to interrogate Paul and Konstantin and then sitting on the sofa together like children that the grownups forgot were up past their bedtime.

Watching Paul and Konstantin pointing fingers at each other and Carolyn losing her temper about everyone bickering was great. When Eve tried to stop Carolyn from shooting Konstantin and VIllanelle stopped Eve, I couldn't figure out if Villanelle just wanted to see what would happen, if she really wanted Carolyn to kill him, or if she just wanted to keep Eve out of it lest Carolyn get angry at Eve.

The most surprising thing was not that Carolyn ended up letting Konstantin go but that both Eve and Villanelle let him leave with the nesting dolls.

Eve and Villanelle's talk on the bridge was great. They were finally both being honest with themselves and with each other. I loved the Eurydice/Orpheus ending.

8 hours ago, stealinghome said:

Seriously, Bear couldn’t have checked his damn camera before now? That plot point was too convenient.

 

8 hours ago, Valny said:

Didn't he said he couldn't access it because it was on the cloud or something?

No, he said he stopped checking because the thief stopped stealing his snacks.

Edited June 1, 2020 by ElectricBoogaloo

[CrazyInAlabama]

Konstantin was totally lying about how Kenny went off of the roof.    The roof edge when Eve threw the cake off was a lot higher, and thicker, so Kenny couldn't just trip over the edge.  and fall to his death.  As someone else pointed out, Kenny didn't scream, either, so Konstantin lied.        I think Konstantin has been around Carolyn's house, and London quite a bit, so Kenny knew who he was.

I think V. stopped Eve from interfering with Carolyn because she wanted to find out more of the story.       The ending where they both looked back, might mean they're going to stay together, or it was one last look, and they keep walking.   I guess we have to wait until next Spring to find out.    

So Carolyn did care about Mo.    She also wanted her daughter out of danger, or suspect she was more involved with Kenny than she ever admitted, but either way telling her to leave was right.    

 

Edited June 1, 2020 by CrazyInAlabama

[Lamima]

Maybe Kenny is not dead. Maybe it was some set up to snare the 12 somehow. I think Carolyn is in the 12. 

I also do not like the love story of V and E. Like a poster up thread mentioned...V killing Bill and then Eve gets lovestruck is just icky. She should want pure vengeance. But the title of who is leading who...and we see V walk away 1st and E turn to look back 1st seems to indicate V is leading E. But maybe not. We think V is manipulating E and doing it very well but it could be E playing the long game and doing that very well. 

Edited June 1, 2020 by Lamima

[stealinghome]

For those wondering, Kenny and Konstantin met at the end of S1, when the team went to Russia to interrogate Nadia in the Russian jail. Konstantin was pretending to help them while secretly working for the Twelve. That’s also how Eve met Konstantin.

[dubbel zout]

10 hours ago, stealinghome said:

I couldn’t tell if she kicked Geraldine out out of concern for Geraldine’s safety, because she’s over her, or some combination thereof.

I thought it was both. Caroline loves Geraldine in her way (as she herself said), but she just doesn't have the emotional bandwidth to deal with her. And while I get Geradline's total frustration with having an ice cube as a mother, her constant pushing to get Caroline to open up is pointless. Caroline never will. Accept it and make a relationship out of that. Or don't.

8 hours ago, Arkay said:

I loved the scene where Eve and Villanelle plopped onto the couch simultaneously, and then, as many of you have said, acted like two stunned children watching the grown-ups fight.

Villanelle's facial expressions were hilarious. While Eve was appalled and a bit terrified by the whole thing, V was all "This is gonna be GOOD." Hee.

8 hours ago, Arkay said:

Did Konstantin do something to Dasha when he listened to her pleading and came back and held her hand?

I wondered that, too, since they made such a big deal of showing them holding hands. It was impossible to tell.

7 hours ago, Arkay said:

Rhian-- what's the point? To sharpen up Villanelle?

To show she hasn't entirely left murder behind, maybe?

2 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

The most surprising thing was not that Carolyn ended up letting Konstantin go but that both Eve and Villanelle let him leave with the nesting dolls.

I know! After all that, Konstantin just waltzes out with them.

[MicheleinPhilly]

7 hours ago, Arkay said:

My brain is on quarantine. I truly cannot recall what it was, but it was something specific at the time that made it seem like it was Konstantin. Maybe something with the timing, but I just don't remember. 

 

In that first episode Konstantin receives a takeout food order with a menu inside. Something to the effect of "Time to go fishing" was handwritten on the menu. Now that could mean several things but Kenny then died like 10 minutes later so that's immediately where my brain went. 

[CrazyInAlabama]

Since Konstantin said the bar code on the bottom of the dolls was the key to the money, and other items, was the bar code was still on the bottom?  After all the dolls were wrapped up again. 

Edited June 1, 2020 by CrazyInAlabama

[Hiyo]

Quote

I feel as if we should all dress up in our most outlandish/closest to designer duds, just to see this last episode of this season. 

You mean you haven't been doing it for each season finale already? 😉

Good season overall. I still enjoy this show and it is still entertaining to watch (I seem to be in the minority as someone who also really enjoyed season 2 as well). I can't wait for season 4.

[enoughcats]

9 hours ago, Arkay said:

I did like that Villanelle showed Rhian what a true assassin is all about.

As Rhian had lots of facial damage, cuts and blood, the camera did a quick check of Villanelle who didn't have a scratch, much less blood drops.  A real check as to which one was the master of the situation.

7 hours ago, Arkay said:

Bear neglected to look at his footage. Hasn't it been awhile since Kenny died? It seems very out of character for Bear to do all this fancy high-tech sifting through phone records and all this other evidence, only to have the evidence all along in the most obvious place. That's a lazy TV trope. 

Different quality surveillance systems for different situations.  The snack snatcher was probably set up using three or four year old technology and went straight to an old cloud account.  Not a priority. ( Hidden implication that Kenny was the snack thief.  Even though Villanelle clearly loved that candy)

3 hours ago, Cranberry said:

I'm pretty sure the perfect ending for these two is dying together in the series finale...

Homage to Thelma and Louise, maybe?  ( Don't let it be an homage to the last Bob Newhart show, or that lost year of Dallas). 

[MicheleinPhilly]

I typically do a re-watch before posting my thoughts but for some inexplicable reason this episode is still not showing up on my Amazon account or On-Demand. 

Again an episode that was at least co-written by Laura Neal felt like a return to form in what has admittedly been a choppy season, plot wise. I feel like Laura is the writer who best understands these characters and is writing most similarly to Phoebe Waller-Bridge which makes me ridiculously excited to see where she takes them in season 4. In 2024 or whenever we'll get it. Damn 'rona. 😞 

I would like the Television Academy to just engrave the Best Supporting Actress in a Drama statue with the name "Fiona Shaw" now, please and thank you. I'm still not over the fact that Geraldine sucked up so much screen time this season for no reason other than TO ANNOY THE EVERLOVING CRAP OUT OF ME but Gemma Whelan was a magnificent screen partner for Fiona. I was waiting for Geraldine to come strolling into the room at Paul's house so they could reveal that she had served some purpose other than being a gullible git who was duped into allowing Konstantin to eavesdrop on her mother. 

One reason I'm looking forward to a re-watch is to examine the scene in the hospital between Dasha and Konstantin more closely. Is there some sort of pressure point in the hand that can immediately induce death? The camera work in that scene leads me to believe that he somehow hastened her inevitable demise but I'm still on the fence about that. 

The humor in this episode was just first rate. From Villanelle at Bitter Pill to Talullah Shark to Villanelle and Eve being utter children, I laughed A LOT. While both Sandra and Jodie are phenomenal dramatic actresses, they are both natural comediennes and I love when the show takes advantage of both skill sets. 

The dance and the bridge. WHOO BOY! I don't even know if I can fully process either yet but I am fully in the "how romantic" camp and I don't care how ridiculous it is, I swooned. I have no idea how any of this will work in season 4 and I don't expect to see 8 episodes of V&E snuggled up on the couch watching movies and eating spaghetti together but the knowledge that these 2 idiots finally had a conversation about their feelings that didn't involve grievous bodily harm will sustain me through the interminable hiatus. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

9 minutes ago, enoughcats said:

Hidden implication that Kenny was the snack thief.

It wasn't just a hidden implication. He was shown on the video stealing Bear's candy. Bear's reaction was to call Kenny a pilfering bastard in front of Carolyn (although he immediately apologized to her).

[ams1001]

4 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

It wasn't just a hidden implication. He was shown on the video stealing Bear's candy. Bear's reaction was to call Kenny a pilfering bastard in front of Carolyn (although he immediately apologized to her).

And it never occurred to him that the pilfering stopped at the same time Kenny died..? 

[CrazyInAlabama]

I think V. liking the same candy was a red herring.     

[Ms Blue Jay]

1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

To show she hasn't entirely left murder behind, maybe?

I still think that V. has come to the point where she doesn't WANT to murder, but sometimes HAS to to resolve something inside of her.  Which is why she apologized before killing her mother (or said, with great emotion, I think I have to kill you) and apologized to Rhian with a slight hesitation before killing her also.

Are we 100% sure Dasha is dead?  

Edited June 1, 2020 by Ms Blue Jay

[ams1001]

1 minute ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Are we 100% sure Dasha is dead?  

Pretty sure we're not. Her monitor went off as K walked away but there's still a possibility the medical staff were able to save her. 

[stealinghome]

Some good news on Killing Eve's fourth season from one of the EPs--maybe we won't have to wait until 2022 after all! From this interview:

Quote

 

You finished filming season 3 before the coronavirus shut down all production. What is the status of season 4? Are the writers starting to work on it — and are you hopeful you could be on the air sometime in 2021?

Oh, yeah! We haven't taken our foot off the pedal. The writers are in the room now. We should have three episodes written really shortly. We're working to the schedule that we had before, and we will amend it as appropriate when we get closer to the date when we would start filming. We're not going to do anything without people being entirely safe, and we don't really want to compromise the vision for the show, either. So I can absolutely see a way that we could on air in 2021.

 

Exciting!

 

Re: what was the point of Rhiannon, I think it was a couple things.

1) If she's going to be Villanelle's last kill for a while, killing her was symbolic of Villanelle's severing ties with The Twelve through the very act the T12 groomed her for. This is the most obvious and textual interpretation--Villanelle rejecting T12 (and perhaps hinting that she will start proactively hunting/killing them at some point in the future--they will be the architects of their own downfall by creating the person who will take them down).

2) At the same time, I also think it was Villanelle rejecting that part of herself--the one who was a "sheep" and just followed orders blindly without asking questions while fooling herself that she was in control. By killing Rhiannon, she was killing that past version of herself that Rhiannon represented. Represents her emotional growth and change in character throughout the season.

3) I also think it served to demonstrate why T12 has been relatively lenient where Villanelle is concerned (which many posters here have been puzzled by). V took out T12's "hot young assassin thang" like yesterday's garbage. It served to show that when V is on her game, she really is head and shoulders above any other assassins. You don't throw away a potential asset like that, especially if you figure at the end of the day she will always come back to you.

Edited June 1, 2020 by stealinghome

[MicheleinPhilly]

29 minutes ago, stealinghome said:

Some good news on Killing Eve's fourth season from one of the EPs--maybe we won't have to wait until 2022 after all! From this interview:

Exciting!

 

Re: what was the point of Rhiannon, I think it was a couple things.

1) If she's going to be Villanelle's last kill for a while, killing her was symbolic of Villanelle's severing ties with The Twelve through the very act the T12 groomed her for. This is the most obvious and textual interpretation--Villanelle rejecting T12 (and perhaps hinting that she will start proactively hunting/killing them at some point in the future--they will be the architects of their own downfall by creating the person who will take them down).

2) At the same time, I also think it was Villanelle rejecting that part of herself--the one who was a "sheep" and just followed orders blindly without asking questions while fooling herself that she was in control. By killing Rhiannon, she was killing that past version of herself that Rhiannon represented. Represents her emotional growth and change in character throughout the season.

3) I also think it served to demonstrate why T12 has been relatively lenient where Villanelle is concerned (which many posters here have been puzzled by). V took out T12's "hot young assassin thang" like yesterday's garbage. It served to show that when V is on her game, she really is head and shoulders above any other assassins. You don't throw away a potential asset like that, especially if you figure at the end of the day she will always come back to you.

ALL OF THIS! 

I don't know whether we should make a Season 4 speculation thread in order to fanwank our way through the next year but I'm guessing that your first point will be the essence of season 4. 

Something else that I noticed with the Rhiannon kill is that she was back to her old, lethal self. V has been a bit sloppy this season letting her emotions get the best of her and suddenly she has one mini-date with Eve and she's back in fine form without a scratch on her. 

[Lamima]

V is a psychopath though. So she can't really love E. Or have any emotion in regards to her killing. So if she was sloppy and seemed like her head wasn't in it then that is because that is how she wanted to be perceived. Maybe in hopes that the 12 cut her loose. But then, was it Dasha or Constantine, who informed her they would never let her go alive. 

I kinda feel like Carolyn and V are part of the 12 and Constantine and E are the god guys trying to cut off the head of the 12. I think Carolyn is the head. I could be wrong.

[Arkay]

5 hours ago, MicheleinPhilly said:

In that first episode Konstantin receives a takeout food order with a menu inside. Something to the effect of "Time to go fishing" was handwritten on the menu. Now that could mean several things but Kenny then died like 10 minutes later so that's immediately where my brain went. 

I think that was it! Bless you. I knew it was something specific but again, my brain is on quarantine and I couldn't recall.

 I wasn't really disappointed with this season until the finale. The first season was so scintillating, because Villanelle was such a unique character. Totally remorseless. The gorgeous and/or outlandish clothing. The locations. Her physical beauty. The efforts to track her down. It was all so intriguing. Season two was kind of meh, but held my interest. So did this season until the finale, because (here at my table for one), the bridge scene played out for me like a Hallmark movie or something. Kind of trite with the inevitable backward glance on both Eve's and Villanelle's parts. 

Also, Carolyn and Villanelle, just nonchalantly having a job interview at the theater.  I know Carolyn had that secret meeting with her in the first season, but there's no frisson of fear in Carolyn's demeanor. I know Carolyn doesn't reveal her emotions, but she didn't seem concerned that Villanelle would toss her from the balcony or anything. Wasn't the initial point to capture Villanelle? Now it's just ho-hum, hi, Villanelle. 

I'm not enjoying Villanelle's vulnerabilities, her tenderness toward Eve, or her reluctance to kill. I don't want to see growth. I adored the crazy Villanelle. That's what made this show fun for me. I also want to see more Eve, but the badass Eve. Not the Eve who dances with her crush like at an 8th-grade prom, even though her crush shot her, killed Bill, etc.

My favorite character is still Konstantin. I think Kim Bodnia is amazing. His strangled voice begging Villanelle to rescue him, then reverting immediately upon his reprieve to "I'm out of here," taking his package but not running screaming out the door in fear. I liked that Villanelle didn't help him, either, even though she's somewhat bonded to him. That's the cold-hearted Villanelle I enjoy. 

ETA: Bear's a techie, right? I get it that his Tangfastic (?) wasn't being pilfered any longer, so he didn't feel the urgency to check the tapes. However, he knew that the tapes had been focused on that area of the office, so he ought to have immediately thought of it as a possible piece of evidence for who may have visited the day of Kenny's death. The way it played out was too Deus Ex Machina. A contrivance to quickly dispose of what had been a driving plot point. 

Edited June 1, 2020 by Arkay

[eXiled]

21 minutes ago, Arkay said:

I think that was it! Bless you. I knew it was something specific but again, my brain is on quarantine and I couldn't recall.

 I wasn't really disappointed with this season until the finale. The first season was so scintillating, because Villanelle was such a unique character. Totally remorseless. The gorgeous and/or outlandish clothing. The locations. Her physical beauty. The efforts to track her down. It was all so intriguing. Season two was kind of meh, but held my interest. So did this season until the finale, because (here at my table for one), the bridge scene played out for me like a Hallmark movie or something. Kind of trite with the inevitable backward glance on both Eve's and Villanelle's parts. 

Also, Carolyn and Villanelle, just nonchalantly having a job interview at the theater.  I know Carolyn had that secret meeting with her in the first season, but there's no frisson of fear in Carolyn's demeanor. I know Carolyn doesn't reveal her emotions, but she didn't seem concerned that Villanelle would toss her from the balcony or anything. Wasn't the initial point to capture Villanelle? Now it's just ho-hum, hi, Villanelle. 

I'm not enjoying Villanelle's' vulnerabilities, her tenderness toward Eve, or her reluctance to kill. I don't want to see growth. I adored the crazy Villanelle. That's what made this show fun for me. I also want to see more Eve, but the badass Eve. Not the Eve who dances with her crush like at an 8th-grade prom, even though her crush shot her, killed Bill, etc.

My favorite character is still Konstantin. I think Kim Bodnia is amazing. His strangled voice begging Villanelle to rescue him, then reverting immediately upon his reprieve to "I'm out of here," taking his package but not running screaming out the door in fear. I liked that Villanelle didn't help him, either, even though she's somewhat bonded to him. That's the cold-hearted Villanelle I enjoy. 

Yes to all the bolded! I especially enjoyed your bridge scene comparison to a Hallmark movie. My favorite trashy women's entertainment channel is Lifetime, dammit, and I only watch those to see the heroine outmatch/outpace the villain. You're only supposed to flirt with/sex up the villain to win!

While Oh and Comer have tremendous chemistry this push for them to become a truly romantic couple is killing the show for me. I truly wanted Eve to remain in relentless pursuit of this woman because of Bill, Niko, and the loss of Eve's life/career. Watching her pursue V out of attraction .... Erm, nope.

Modern television's infatuation with reforming psychopaths is so off the mark. That shit ruined Luther for me (cause his thing with Alice reminds me of this mess!) and I could never take Dexter seriously because of his supposed "code."

There is no love here, and I hope Eve is smart enough to know this. The moment she gives herself over to Villanelle, Eve might as well be dead. Villanelle will already be seeking her next challenge. We've already seen V treats her exes.

[tennisgurl]

I thought that this season was quite a bit better than last season, even if it was still not quite at the heights of season one. I think that all of the drama with Carolyn and the twelve and Konstantin kind of made Eve and Villanelle supporting characters in their own series. Not that it was bad, it was just so much going on that a lot got lost. They both kind of just reacted to stuff, and while they did both have arcs (more Villanelle than Eve) I generally felt like they were on the back burner as characters, especially with so many new characters being added to the show. Much like last season, the show got so enraptured with Villanelle that Eve, who is more or less the main character and our audience surrogate, got left behind, but she at least did get some decent stuff trying to find out what happened to Kenny, and at least, unlike last season, the Villanelle stuff was actually interesting. It wasn't just her putting on increasingly outlandish outfits and killing people in ridiculous ways, she actually did develop as a character, albeit in a sociopathic kind of way. This show is at its best when Eve and Villanelle are equal leads and foils, so hopefully Eve gets more to do next season.

I have no idea if Konstantin really did kill Kenny or if Kenny really did accidentally fall to his death, I could buy either one, but either way he has basically become a wild card. Most of his relationships are broken, he is screwing with and stealing from probably dozens of scary ass intelligence agencies, now he has nothing to lose. 

The bridge scene was shockingly romantic, and was probably the closest we might ever get to seeing Villanelle trying to be selfless (or maybe it was her leaving money for her brothers after she killed the rest of her family) and putting someone else first, and them having a real moment. Well, again, as much as she is capable of, being a sociopath. I found Villanelle trying to find some self understanding to be fascinating, it adds a lot of dimensions to her character, and even adds a tragic element to her. She might be a monster, but its not her fault the chemicals in her brain make it so hard for her to understand empathy or any traditional kind of right or wrong. Not that it excuses all of the evil things she has done, but it does add context to it, and makes me wonder where she goes from here, having started looking at the world through the lenses of someone who might want to engage with it, instead of being a bored hallow shell trying to fill the void with fancy clothes and food and killings to starve off the boredom. I will be interested to see if her wanting to stop killing is going to stick, or even if we are going to explore why she wants to stop. Is she just burned out on killing and taking orders from endless handlers trying to control her, or was something broken when she met her family, or is she actually having some moral qualms with what she has done, in her own way, or has she just noticed that her life sucks now and is wondering if she stops being an assassin, she will be happier, or just that she got bored with killing? 

That all being said, as much chemistry as Eve and Villanelle have (and they have so very much) and how much I love the scenes between them and how much I loved the bridge scene, I just cant imagine Eve ever actually being in some kind of relationship with her after everything she did. I might find Villanelle fascinating, and even feel some sympathy for her, but she is still a cold blooded murderer whos morality is mostly based around what she feels like doing at the moment and what interests her. She still murdered Bill, one of Eves best friends. If she could get over all of that, I feel like that would finally push Eve into actual villain territory, or at least she would become significantly less sympathetic. 

I really thought we would find out that Geraldine would play a bigger part in the plot, but I guess not. The same with the new office crew that Eve was working with, they didn't end up having much to do with anything. Although, I freaking loved when they met Villanelle for the first time, equal parts terrified and star struck. While Villanelle was just like "this is a very strange work place environment." 

Edited June 1, 2020 by tennisgurl

[stealinghome]

3 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I thought that this season was quite a bit better than last season, even if it was still not quite at he heights of season one. I think that all of the drama with Carolyn and the twelve and Konstantin kind of made Eve and Villanelle supporting characters in their own series. Not that it was bad, it was just so much going on that a lot got lost. They both kind of just reacted to stuff, and while they did both have arcs (more Villanelle than Eve) I generally felt like they were on the back burner as characters, especially with so many new characters being added to the show.... This show is at its best when Eve and Villanelle are equal leads and foils, so hopefully Eve gets more to do next season.

...

I found Villanelle trying to find some self understanding to be fascinating, it adds a lot of dimensions to her character, and even adds a tragic element to her. She might be a monster, but its not her fault the chemicals in her brain make it so hard for her to understand empathy or any traditional kind of right or wrong. Not that it excuses all of the evil things she has done, but it does add context to it, and makes me wonder where she goes from here, having started looking at the world through the lenses of someone who might want to engage with it, instead of being a bored hallow shell trying to fill the void with fancy clothes and food and killings to starve off the boredom. I will be interested to see if her wanting to stop killing is going to stick, or even if we are going to explore why she wants to stop. Is she just burned out on killing and taking orders from endless handlers trying to control her, or was something broken when she met her family, or is she actually having some moral qualms with what she has done, in her own way, or has she just noticed that her life sucks now and is wondering if she stops being an assassin, she will be happier, or just that she got bored with killing? 

Totally agree with your assessment of this season. I thought it was better than last season for sure on a number of levels, and ultimately better for both Eve and Villanelle as characters, but they got lost in their own show a bit.

And I agree that the show needs to re-center Eve--she got particularly lost in the sauce this year. Last season, Eve was still very much at the show's forefront, but the writers had no clue what to do with her so they basically just replayed her S1 arc. This season, the writers had a much better grasp on what they wanted to do with Eve--not only processing what happened in S2 but have her give up once and for all the "normal life" she was clinging to, admit her own culpability in what her life has become, and embrace her new life (because this new life is really what she wants if she is honest with herself)--and the season started out strong for her in the first 2 episodes, but her arc faded into the background when Carolyn/Konstantin got foregrounded and Eve's own investigation into Kenny went exactly nowhere. I applaud Sandra Oh's lack of ego about the show but Eve and Villanelle need to become the real drivers of the show and narrative again, not Carolyn and Konstantin, and Eve needs to be the focal point of the show.

I do think one structural problem the show had this season is that it wanted the Big Four to be at loggerheads with each other, but that meant it had to invent a bunch of secondary characters to have the leads interact with, which just diluted the story. Villanelle had to have Dasha and Helene, Eve the Bitter Pill crew, Carolyn Geraldine and Mo, and Konstantin I don't even know--he ducked in and out of everyone else's plotlines. I don't know if it's possible, but the show needs to either have the leads working in tandem a little bit more to cut down on the secondary characters OR just don't feature Carolyn and Konstantin as much if you don't really have story for them (ahem, unnecessary Geraldine plotline; Irina's stuff also kind of fizzled).

Re: Villanelle, my interpretation is that it's a combination of A, B, and D. Even back in S1 we got hints that Villanelle wasn't happy with the assassin life that involved nice clothes and a nice flat but had no human connection: she went on a date with the ill-fated guy that accidentally died thanks to poison perfume, there was the time she shot the guy in the office building but then sat down and looked super dissatisfied afterward, Konstantin hauled her in front of the therapist (the memorable pink dress and boots outfit) because she seemed off, all the Anna stuff, etc. She got obsessed with Eve in part because she felt seen by Eve, and then they did have a connection. So I do think Villanelle, across the three seasons, has grown increasingly dissatisfied with her empty life, hit a breaking point after Eve's crushing rejection at the end of S2, and this season was looking for change that would make her happy (why she was desperate to be promoted this season, then why she wanted to go find her family). So she's looking to change her life to be happier. And she's definitely burned out on taking orders all the time--she wants to feel like she's in control, not a puppet for other people. Not a sheep. That's also why she went to find her family, to feel in control of that knowledge.

But with that all said, the show this season also strongly implied that killing her mother broke something inside her--she didn't have any problems with killing itself until she went to Russia. I do hope they delve into why that is next season, even if Villanelle eventually is able to kill again like she used to--did Villanelle think on some level that killing her mother would solve all her problems and is even unhappier now that it didn't? Is Villanelle haunted now by the fact that she will never get what she wants from her mother, so actually regrets killing her because she will never get what she was seeking? Was her mother really what she wanted to kill all along, and now that she has done it, the fire is simply extinguished, or even does every kill remind her now of killing her mother (which she regrets)? Is she unconsciously trying to tamp down on the murderous side of herself in the hopes that she can then have a normal life (the irony being that Eve had that normal life and now wants what Villanelle has grown tired of)? Super interesting stuff that I hope the show dives into.

[MicheleinPhilly]

16 minutes ago, stealinghome said:

But with that all said, the show this season also strongly implied that killing her mother broke something inside her--she didn't have any problems with killing itself until she went to Russia. I do hope they delve into why that is next season, even if Villanelle eventually is able to kill again like she used to--did Villanelle think on some level that killing her mother would solve all her problems and is even unhappier now that it didn't? Is Villanelle haunted now by the fact that she will never get what she wants from her mother, so actually regrets killing her because she will never get what she was seeking? Was her mother really what she wanted to kill all along, and now that she has done it, the fire is simply extinguished, or even does every kill remind her now of killing her mother (which she regrets)? Is she unconsciously trying to tamp down on the murderous side of herself in the hopes that she can then have a normal life (the irony being that Eve had that normal life and now wants what Villanelle has grown tired of)? Super interesting stuff that I hope the show dives into.

This is a really interesting element to consider. I've thought V seemed slightly "off" from the very beginning of this season. There were just certain aspects of her personality to me that read as she wasn't feeling herself. 

I think when you look at the sequence of rejections beginning with the Season 2 finale where Konstantin tells her he wouldn't pick her over his family and then Eve rejects her outright, I think the stage was set. Her mother was the straw that broke the camel's back. 

Now do I think this will stick? I doubt it. I just don't see where they have Villanelle NOT be an assassin as I just think that would be a bridge (whomp, whomp) too far. She obviously needs to find some sort of fulfillment that doesn't involve following orders and having no input. I just have absolutely no idea what form that will take but I am excited to see where they go with it. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

Why did Villanelle turn on Konstantin in the end?

"You're not family"

- She's disgusted that he would kill Kenny?
- Her family is Eve, so she has to stay?

Villanelle is a psychopath, not a sociopath, IMO.  We all deal with sociopaths in our everyday lives.  Or at least, we meet a few over the course of our lives, if we're lucky it's few and not many. Villanelle actually kills.

so·ci·o·path
a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience.

psy·cho·path
a person suffering from chronic mental disorder with abnormal or violent social behavior.

Edited June 1, 2020 by Ms Blue Jay

[kieyra]

2 hours ago, eXiled said:

Modern television's infatuation with reforming psychopaths is so off the mark. That shit ruined Luther for me (cause his thing with Alice reminds me of this mess!) and I could never take Dexter seriously because of his supposed "code."

Can I join you at this table?

All I’ve ever asked of this show is to not sell me a reformed psychopath arc. Am I watching it wrong? Did I miss some new research saying that sociopaths can be cured, or can acquire or learn empathy? That they can have affection for people other than as favored objects? Someone point me to the papers if so.

I understand the desire to create romance out of the idea of a person who can’t feel love or empathy suddenly figuring out how to be a real human being, but that doesn’t mean it should be done. 

Meh. Open to counter arguments but I want to see some research. (If the fanwank is that she wasn’t a “real” psychopath all along, then they fucked that up pretty badly in season one.)

Meh, sorry for grouchiness.

I love Gemma Whelan and she looked lovely throughout this show, but I don’t know why she was here, not even thematically.

Rhian was also a dumb addition. Trained assassin, doesn’t even fight back, has no reflexes, no defenses, antagonizes another killer and then ultimately gives her about ten minutes to push her onto the train tracks? Never mind letting V get the upper hand at the ballroom. Worst alleged trained killer ever?

[MJ Frog]

1 hour ago, stealinghome said:

But with that all said, the show this season also strongly implied that killing her mother broke something inside her--she didn't have any problems with killing itself until she went to Russia. I do hope they delve into why that is next season, even if Villanelle eventually is able to kill again like she used to--did Villanelle think on some level that killing her mother would solve all her problems and is even unhappier now that it didn't? Is Villanelle haunted now by the fact that she will never get what she wants from her mother, so actually regrets killing her because she will never get what she was seeking? Was her mother really what she wanted to kill all along, and now that she has done it, the fire is simply extinguished, or even does every kill remind her now of killing her mother (which she regrets)? Is she unconsciously trying to tamp down on the murderous side of herself in the hopes that she can then have a normal life (the irony being that Eve had that normal life and now wants what Villanelle has grown tired of)? Super interesting stuff that I hope the show dives into.

For what it's worth, my first impulse was to think that her mother was the one she wanted to kill all along -- that her minders, Konstantin and Dasha, channeled and then honed that energy, and that crazy, to their own ends. And having achieved her ultimate goal, however subconscious, Villanelle's heart isn't in it anymore. She can definitely still do it, she just no longer takes pleasure in it. As you alluded to, she has been heading towards this since the 1st season, eternally dissatisfied. Now it's time to find something new, and maybe that something new is caring for someone else.

You have presented a lot of really interesting additional possibilities. Like you, I am eager to see where they take this.

[TVbitch]

This season was all about V. It was interesting, but I'm sorry show, no matter how hard you try to humanize her and explain her abusive back story and show her grappling with what appears to be feelings and possible regrets... I am never going to soften toward V cuz she is a psycopathic killer of many innocent people and I really can't wish for a happy ending for her.

I would have liked to see more of Eve's struggle with her feelings for V, some guilt about Nico, her own mental illness that keeps her persuing a woman who is a killer, who shot her, who tricked her into killing someone else, etc. She said she wanted V to bring out "her monster", but she never seemed to contemplate this, she was mostly just glib and didn't dig too deep into her own issues. 

[slf]

9 hours ago, Lamima said:

Like a poster up thread mentioned...V killing Bill and then Eve gets lovestruck is just icky. She should want pure vengeance.

She should, and she had a lot of anger about his death. But Eve is not a normal person having a normal response. She's been able to control her issue longer and better than others like her but this is a woman who dug a knife into her own leg while entranced by thoughts of Villanelle killing and knew exactly how she'd kill her husband if she wanted to. And those two incidents were just from the series premiere.