S18.E12: The Height of Avant Garde Fashion

[Ms Blue Jay]

3 hours ago, DaphneCat said:

While Marquise did do a very avant garde look - I kept thinking Star Trek alien (possibly with a side of baked potato). 

I thought he did too!

[CherryMalotte]

6 hours ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

Her butterfly motif designs always make me think of Effie Trinket. The costume designer for The Hunger Games wanted us to think, “The f- - -?” but, in my opinion, it was actually quite lovely (as long as they were not supposed to be real, dead butterflies). Of course, and understandably, Brittany’s does not compare. 

Yeah that was Effie's five year old niece's effort - with help from the Crayola Collection.   

While I'm thinking of it - I love Geoffrey, he's talented, seems like a decent dude and I've loved some of his designs but this one was like Princess Aura's leftovers.  The way the judges were going on about it was just batshit crazy to me, I enjoy that he worked with latex mind you but they were acting like it was a holy resurrection.  

And Nina - I'm so over you.  She just sucks all the joy out of the room.  As much as I roll my eyes when Sergio opens his mouth, I don't think he was totally doing a rip off off of McQueen or anybody else, and it didn't help with the styling - he should have left the geisha make up on the drawing page and maybe just bronzed up his samari woman.  At this point I'm beginning to think all fashion is reverential - so yes very similar but still his own. 

Land Before Time?  Time After Time, Time Machine, Time In A Bottle, The Land Time Forgot....

Nice Clueless reference!

      
 

[oceanview]

5 hours ago, DaphneCat said:

I'm a little confused about this challenge.  Shouldn't the entire look be avant garde - not just elements of it?  Especially since they made such a big deal about styling, particularly Sergio's make-up.

Brittany made an avant garde coat but then paired it with a  plain old dress.  They even said she could have paired it with blue jeans.  Yet they didn't like it.

Geoffery made an avant garde top but paired it with granny panties (hardly revolutionary) and they thought it was wonderful.

Victoria basically made an ill fitting asymmetrical halter dress.  Yes, one of the sides connected to an earring, but it was really just a halter dress.  Again, they loved it.

Love them or hate them, Sergio and Nancy seemed to be the only ones who really followed the directive.

I guess I was hoping they would critique them on the avant garde elements ONLY and sort of ding them for not doing an entire look.

While Marquise did do a very avant garde look - I kept thinking Star Trek alien (possibly with a side of baked potato). 

Honestly, avant  garde of most of these people  was just boring and not worth it, particularly for any loyal followers of  Project Runway.   My favorite was a young woman who made it to the finals, as I recall, wish I could remember her name...….she made an outfit of black and gold and the jacket was just magnificent, her inspiration was a painting at the Museum of Fine Art of a soldier on a horse.   I could not get over how talented she was during the whole season.   I will remember her name later, of course.   I want to say "Jill"?    It was the same year Chris and Christian made that gorgeous beige dress with the 200 yards of tulle and the huge collar/shoulder that extended over the models head or something.   So beautiful.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

6 hours ago, lidarose9 said:

I agree with those who felt the venue was not good for a fashion show. This isn't America's Next Top Model.

Never forget the season where they made the contestants model walk while inside those giant zorb balls!

Edited March 1, 2020 by ElectricBoogaloo

[oceanview]

On 2/28/2020 at 3:27 PM, SuprSuprElevated said:

The top half of Geoffrey's garment was wonderful!  The bottom half was at best unfinished, and at worst indulgent.  Victoria's look was typical of Victoria's look; I saw nothing noteworthy.  Sorry, unpopular opinion here; Nancy's look was not avant garde to me, but simply a frenetic, jumbled mess.  I don't share the love of this designer.  Sergio's look was interesting and as usual, well made, but I question if it should be labelled avant garde.  Brittany's garment was nothing special; no judges, not even the color.  Not impressed with Marquise's creation nor any of the individual elements of it.  I am probably most interested in seeing Sergio's runway show, followed by Geoffrey.  Not really interested in the other two.    

In order of final judgement:

Hated the pants on Geoffrey's, but loved the rest.   Everything about Victoria is forgettable, except her hair and her spoiled brat attitude.    This outfit wasn't too bad, better than most of her trashy style.    She can dress herself in a variety of styles, why can't she do the same for her models? Sergio's was interesting and Nancy's was okay with me, might have liked it better in another color?  Marquise was different.  I liked it. Would like to see a whole group of his  against a couple of the others.  Sorry he did not make it to the final.  I think he has good days and bad days, like all of us. Same for Geoffrey.   Brittany  - not sorry to see you go.  I have no idea why Christian and the judge think she has potential.  A couple were okay, but not consistently.

[Sew Sumi]

45 minutes ago, oceanview said:

Honestly, avant  garde of most of these people  was just boring and not worth it, particularly for any loyal followers of  Project Runway.   My favorite was a young woman who made it to the finals, as I recall, wish I could remember her name...….she made an outfit of black and gold and the jacket was just magnificent, her inspiration was a painting at the Museum of Fine Art of a soldier on a horse.   I could not get over how talented she was during the whole season.   I will remember her name later, of course.   I want to say "Jill"?    It was the same year Chris and Christian made that gorgeous beige dress with the 200 yards of tulle and the huge collar/shoulder that extended over the models head or something.   So beautiful.

Jillian. 

[oceanview]

4 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

Jillian. 

   Oh Bless you...….I was so close.   My beloved dog was named Gillian ---- I should have remembered for sure.   My Old Timer's Disease is getting scary.

[oceanview]

8 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

Jillian. 

  Bless you!   I wrote this reply  once but lost it in the shuffle.    I was pretty close, wasn't I?   My beloved dog was named "Gillian".     I should be ashamed.  My Old Timer's Disease is getting scarier and scarier       LOL

[Vermicious Knid]

I'd like to see all the judges and hosts replaced. I've complained before about Christian and how he's more interested in promoting himself then giving useful advise. I think he's terrible as a mentor. My biggest problem with Karli is she has no personality. You could put her picture next to 'bland' in the dictionary. Nina gets fixated on lousy designers and because she's the senior judge, and her magazine is one of the prizes, she usually gets her way. Elaine is practically useless. Brandon is the least objectionable but doesn't really add anything unique. If enough fans complain, would Bravo replace anyone?

This is what Austin Scarlett produced for the avant garde challenge on his All-Stars season, when they had to incorporate fiber optics and lights. I believe it was only one day.

He won.

[HelloOutThere]

...so this is weird to admit but I was actually voted “Most Likely To Succeed” in high school 😱🙈😱

I was pretty bookish as a high schooler and got pretty good grades. My friends were less school-focused and much more social than me, so by association of my friends I got to know many people in the school. I think people were like “hmm well HelloOutThere gets good grades so I’ll put him for this.”

I was shocked and mortified when the yearbooks came out!!! Omg panic bells, red alert in my high school brain. A teacher who I respected very much told me to take it as a compliment, so I tried my best to. One of those silly things. My 20th reunion is actually next year - I couldn’t make it to the 10 year but do plan on making the 20. I won’t lie when I say I really, really hope nobody brings up the “Most likely...” titles. I certainly won’t!

Completely separate, I kind of saw where Brandon was coming from when he made the “Land Before Time” reference. Something about the plastic, artificial look of the latex reminded me of that old show “Dinosaurs” from the ‘90s (“I’m the baby! Gotta looooove me!”) No idea why. Then Brandon made his comment and I was like yes!! Which scares me because I really am not a fan of Brandon.

 

Edited March 1, 2020 by HelloOutThere

[CherryMalotte]

31 minutes ago, HelloOutThere said:

Completely separate, I kind of saw where Brandon was coming from when he made the “Land Before Time” reference. Something about the plastic, artificial look of the latex reminded me of that old show “Dinosaurs” from the ‘90s (“I’m the baby! Gotta looooove me!”) No idea why. Then Brandon made his comment and I was like yes!! Which scares me because I really am not a fan of Brandon.

Now what would have been really cool is if someone referenced Land Of The Lost and did a sleestak inspired garment.

[Katherine Kegel]

I wish Sergio hadn’t done the hair and makeup that way, I think he could have made it feel more modern by not making the reference so blatant.  Loved the clothes though.  That said, I feel bad for Sergio.  It seemed like Nina was picking on him beyond what was necessary; she seems to give him compliments begrudgingly and doesn’t seem to want to give him credit even when it’s due.  Nothing was wrong with the clothes, so she focused on the styling.  Seemed like such an overreaction on what she didn’t like while glossing over the positive.  Sergio seems like a kind person who wants to do something genuinely important/impactful in the world.  However, his passion is fashion so he is trying to unite the two and he just doesn’t know how.  It ends up coming off as pandering and fake, but I don’t think he’s purposefully being disingenuous.  Even when he’s doing the talking heads that seem not so nice, his focus is on himself, not personally insulting others.  It comes off poorly sometimes because he is automatically insulting the others when he compares them to himself, because he truly believes he is technically better at his craft (and he is usually right about that).  I don’t see him trying to be mean, though, he just believes he is the best and is being honest about it.  I can definitely see how it can rub people the wrong way, but he just seems socially awkward to me, not mean.

[morakot]

Sergio's dress seemed to me to be more Tudor than Japanese. The conical bodice and full skirt with the white makeup looked like a fantasy Queen Elizabeth (who was also a warrior Queen and not a weak thing...

[dleighg]

2 hours ago, morakot said:

Sergio's dress seemed to me to be more Tudor than Japanese. The conical bodice and full skirt with the white makeup looked like a fantasy Queen Elizabeth (who was also a warrior Queen and not a weak thing...

Nice observation!  If he'd had the makeup different it would have been more ambiguous what the reference was (note to Sergio: you don't always need to have a political point).

Edited March 1, 2020 by dleighg

[nokat]

5 hours ago, Katherine Kegel said:

I wish Sergio hadn’t done the hair and makeup that way, I think he could have made it feel more modern by not making the reference so blatant.

Me too. I really liked his dress, and then the styling went so overboard.
 

[nokat]

As much as I liked Marquise, now that I see it again (thank you @oceanview) it really was horrible. A side of baked potato indeed.
 

[Jobiska]

On 2/28/2020 at 5:05 PM, 30 Helens said:

But of the four remaining, I hope Geoffrey gets the mentorship. I think he would benefit, and maybe they can teach him to calm down, already.

Ha!  I can just picture it:  "You have a lot of technique under your belt anyway, so half of your mentorship is going to be counseling sessions for your anxiety."  

I am also pulling for Geoffrey.  

For how much effort Victoria put into the embellished fabric, I expected it to be a lot more interesting looking.  And did they tell Brandon behind the scenes, "We want Victoria in the final...since you didn't climb up the Vessel, you get the job of gushing over the ill-fitting halter and make the possibility that a boob will pop out into something unheard of and amazing."

I once saw an article that said a lot of locals call the Vessel the Schawarma because it looks like one of those cone-shaped globs of meat rotating on a vertical spit that you make gyros etc. out of.  But I like "ribcage" as someone upthread posted too.

[jacksgirl]

Geoffrey for the win! Just a few thoughts. Not surprised that Marquise and Britt were out as they had both already been eliminated.  Second,  even though Sergio is totally full of himself, it doesn't seem to be his habit to mock the other designers unlike Brittany. I was pretty underwhelmed by the avant-garde aspect this season but I probably like Sergio's the best and Victoria's the least. 

[hoosiermommy]

Sergio's disingenuous use of the moniker "political designer" really blew up for him this season.  First, there is no indication that he actually has any particular political stance because he believes it, rather, he uses it to appeal to a certain "woke" clientele.  I can discern this because:

1.  The week "he" embroidered the names of the children on the dress he was actually exploiting them for his personal gain.

2. He chose to turn it off when he didn't think it would be an advantage to him.  The week he just made a dress.  If he really used politics as his inspiration, he'd be able to be inspired by something without telling the whole world about how cool he is to be inspired by it.

3.  There was never talk about a personal connection to any one cause.  It was always something sterile for him, but a huge talking point for someone else. As opposed to Mondo's HIV+ print, which is pretty much the standard I will always go by when talking about causes.

4. If he truly believed any of this, he wouldn't court the idea of "cultural appropriation" by dressing his model in another culture's makeup and dressing them in an outfit inspired by another culture's historical icons like he did here.

And the thing of it is, if Sergio were as confident about his skills as he tells us he is, he wouldn't need to pose as such a "woke" designer at all. He could--you know--let his fashion do the talking.

As to the references to McQueen...I'm not a fashion person and even I can see that what he did was borrow from McQueen.  It isn't that all high neck designs are off limits.  It is that the wide, high neck, bowl around the head look came from someone else.  We aren't talking turtle neck, here.  That particular neckline is distinctive and unique.

 

[carrps]

16 hours ago, CherryMalotte said:

And Nina - I'm so over you.  She just sucks all the joy out of the room. 
 

I also binged Next in Fashion yesterday, and I gotta say one of the things I loved was how good the judges were, and how well the designers incorporated the critiques. No one trying to be cute or clever. No one with an obvious bias pushing a lesser talent forward. And 90% of the time -- especially after the first handful of episodes when the numbers became smaller -- I agreed completely with the winners and losers. Or they agreed with me. 😄 I had placements in my brain before they announced theirs, and I was happily surprised how much we were in absolute agreement. No weird out of place loves or hates. No bad eliminations (just that weird non-elimination in the middle of the season). It was so refreshing!

 

1 hour ago, Jobiska said:

For how much effort Victoria put into the embellished fabric, I expected it to be a lot more interesting looking.  

Yeah, gauged by the effort, it was a real failure.

[mightysparrow]

Very well said, @hoosiermommy.

Sergio's 'political' statements would be laughable, if they weren't so offensive.  He has no problem exploiting other people's pain or other cultures for his own gain and advancement.  I agree that he has no personal connection to the causes he claims he cares about.  What kind of person would use the plight of children in cages to win a show about fashion?  That's worse than casual bitchery for which other contestants have been dragged to pieces.   

Sergio is a good sewer and tailor.  He has good enough taste and knowledge of fashion to steal from the best.  But he's not THAT good and certainly not good enough to overcome the offensiveness of his 'borrowing' or his exploitation of serious issues for his own personal gain.  Nina might be a 'bitch' (I disagree) but she's absolutely right to call Sergio out for his 'borrowing'.  Imagine a show about writing where the judges ignored blatant plagiarism.  It's the same thing.

The saddest thing is that this show isn't about design any more.  So Sergio is the best there is on this saddest of seasons.  He'll probably win and then he'll have the nerve to claim that he's struck a blow for oppressed people everywhere.

Edited March 1, 2020 by mightysparrow

[DaphneCat]

1 hour ago, hoosiermommy said:

4. If he truly believed any of this, he wouldn't court the idea of "cultural appropriation" by dressing his model in another culture's makeup and dressing them in an outfit inspired by another culture's historical icons like he did here.

I'm not trying to start a fight, I'm truly trying to understand.  Are you saying that if I, as a white woman, wore an outfit inspired by Asian warriors I'm culturally appropriating?  I've made a dress using African fabric - are you saying I shouldn't have done that?  Are you saying Sergio should ONLY ever reference Latinx fashion (whatever that is?)  Am I only supposed to wear "white" fashion?  What exactly IS that?  Pantsuits?  Something to wear while lunching with the Kushners?🤣  

I'm not saying I'm all on board for Sergio's "political" messages just I'm not sure using something as inspiration is cultural appropriation.

As for referencing other designers - pretty much anything you can do has been done by someone else at some point.  Collar shape, shoulders, sleeves, necklines, etc. etc.  I get it if I did an exact copy of a Dior dress and made the sleeve hit two inches higher I'm blatantly copying.  But that does that mean I can't make a dress that's fitted on top with a longer full skirt?  I guess I'm saying I'm not sure of the difference between referencing/being inspired by and copying.  

[gingerella]

Apparently the standards for 'avant garde' are so low that latex panties qualifies now? Yes, Geoffrey's top was lovely, but the panties were a cop out and I thought that train was just an add on that lacked any sense of cohesion, to be honest.

To me, when I think PR avant garde challenge I think of this:

Christian Siriano & Chris March:

To me, this was the best avant garge response that any designer(s) have made to date on PR and the one I hold all others up against. And none of this year's crop even comes close, quite frankly. They're all rather sad examples of maybe a talented high school fashion class.

Edited March 1, 2020 by gingerella

[AZChristian]

8 minutes ago, gingerella said:

Apparently the standards for 'avant garde' are so low that latex panties qualifies now? Yes, Geoffrey's top was lovely, but the panties were a cop out and I thought that train was just an add on that lacked any sense of cohesion, to be honest.

To me, when I think PR avant garde challenge I think of this:

Christian Siriano & Chris March:

To me, this was the best avant garge response that any designer(s) have made to date on PR and the one I hold all others up against. And none of this year's crop even comes close, quite frankly. They're all rather sad examples of maybe a talented high school fashion class.

I agree . . . this was the absolute epitome of gorgeous and creative.  However, there were TWO designers working for two days, so I think that has to be taken into consideration when we try to compare this to any of the finished garments we saw last week.

[gingerella]

3 minutes ago, AZChristian said:

I agree . . . this was the absolute epitome of gorgeous and creative.  However, there were TWO designers working for two days, so I think that has to be taken into consideration when we try to compare this to any of the finished garments we saw last week.

Yes you're right about two designers BUT...this was only one designer and even though it's not my cup of tea, it's still very avant garde:

[atlantaloves]

I loath to say this, but I think Sergio is actually a good designer, but he is such a horrible smug little person, which ruins it. He did have the best outfit. Yeah, I said it. 

[Lemons]

2 hours ago, DaphneCat said:

I'm not trying to start a fight, I'm truly trying to understand.  Are you saying that if I, as a white woman, wore an outfit inspired by Asian warriors I'm culturally appropriating?  I've made a dress using African fabric - are you saying I shouldn't have done that?  Are you saying Sergio should ONLY ever reference Latinx fashion (whatever that is?)  Am I only supposed to wear "white" fashion?  What exactly IS that?  Pantsuits?  Something to wear while lunching with the Kushners?🤣  

I'm not saying I'm all on board for Sergio's "political" messages just I'm not sure using something as inspiration is cultural appropriation.

As for referencing other designers - pretty much anything you can do has been done by someone else at some point.  Collar shape, shoulders, sleeves, necklines, etc. etc.  I get it if I did an exact copy of a Dior dress and made the sleeve hit two inches higher I'm blatantly copying.  But that does that mean I can't make a dress that's fitted on top with a longer full skirt?  I guess I'm saying I'm not sure of the difference between referencing/being inspired by and copying.  

I know , enough with the screaming “cultural appropriation!” “You’re a bad person!” trend. This country we live in has thousands of different cultures. As long as someone isn’t using someone else’s culture in a derogatory way, there shouldn’t be a problem. 

[BlackberryJam]

I’m not in a position to school anyone on cultural appropriation but it’s my understanding that a large part of it for many ‘appropriating for personal/financial gain or to promote oneself.’ 

It’s a really difficult issue. What is and what is not is going to differ for people. My position is that if it’s done to honor or simply because that person likes it, I’m okay with it. Positive intent matters. But with Sergio, he always comes of as using a cause to promote himself, therefore appropriating issues for personal gain. The selfish intent is where I start drawing the line.

 

 

[Ms Blue Jay]

We all know that Sergio doesn't know much about Asian cultures and history (it's clear from the way that he spoke on the runway) so yes, him taking an Asian model and putting stereotypical "Asian" makeup on her was offensive to me.  He does not understand what he's referencing, he doesn't care what culture the model actually is, he's mixing up different ethnicities and cultures and he's using the model as some sort of tool for his mixed up message.

What if he did this with a Latina or black model?  What if he tried to use makeup stereotypically associated with Latina women, or black women?  Would you then understand how offensive it is?  Asian people don't deserve more discrimination towards them.

It's as if Sergio got an Asian model and said "This is perfect, I can do a bunch of Asian references" and thought everyone would ooh and ahh.  Sorry, I am not oohing and aahing.

Nobody would do this with a white model.  "Hmm, what stereotypically WHITE makeup can I put on her to push forward my message?"   It's a way of seeing the non-white models as less than human.  

3 hours ago, DaphneCat said:

I'm not trying to start a fight, I'm truly trying to understand.  Are you saying that if I, as a white woman, wore an outfit inspired by Asian warriors I'm culturally appropriating?  I've made a dress using African fabric - are you saying I shouldn't have done that?  Are you saying Sergio should ONLY ever reference Latinx fashion (whatever that is?)  Am I only supposed to wear "white" fashion?  What exactly IS that?  Pantsuits?  Something to wear while lunching with the Kushners?🤣  

 

Edited March 1, 2020 by Ms Blue Jay

[violet and green]

He had his inspiration in mind - Onna-bugeisha - before the chance to pick models arose. He was pleased he got the Asian model, I think, because of her lovely long dark hair that fitted easily to his concept and her more delicate frame and tiny waist which would highlight his design by contrast, etc.

It was a grand design, whichever way you look at it, and some cornfed typical American model, like Marquise's for example, would not have looked as effective walking it.

Sergio has never seemed anything less than thrilled with whichever model he got, particularly not the fuller figured models, unlike some of the bitchier and more limited designers. I think he would have made it work whoever he got to pick, but the long dark hair was a godsend for him.

Referencing an art form or a historical reference from another country, another point in time or another tradition is not cultural appropriation - or else the whole history of art, architecture, literature, theatre, music, and opera would need to be wiped.

[hoosiermommy]

On 2/28/2020 at 12:31 AM, Ms Blue Jay said:

I quickly Google'd Alexander McQueen and all of these references popped up immediately, so I thought I should contribute to show what Nina is talking about.  I love when they point out these references and I always want to defend them. When Nina says to Sergio "Now, you know fashion history" she's wrong about that.  He just straight up does not, and does not care, and that's something I don't like.  I don't like when people say "You haven't seen this before" when it's just not true.  There's nothing wrong with showing respect to the masters of your craft and there's nothing wrong with showing deference to your influences.  

 

4 hours ago, DaphneCat said:

I'm not trying to start a fight, I'm truly trying to understand.  Are you saying that if I, as a white woman, wore an outfit inspired by Asian warriors I'm culturally appropriating?  I've made a dress using African fabric - are you saying I shouldn't have done that?  Are you saying Sergio should ONLY ever reference Latinx fashion (whatever that is?)  Am I only supposed to wear "white" fashion?  What exactly IS that?  Pantsuits?  Something to wear while lunching with the Kushners?🤣  

I'm not saying I'm all on board for Sergio's "political" messages just I'm not sure using something as inspiration is cultural appropriation.

As for referencing other designers - pretty much anything you can do has been done by someone else at some point.  Collar shape, shoulders, sleeves, necklines, etc. etc.  I get it if I did an exact copy of a Dior dress and made the sleeve hit two inches higher I'm blatantly copying.  But that does that mean I can't make a dress that's fitted on top with a longer full skirt?  I guess I'm saying I'm not sure of the difference between referencing/being inspired by and copying.  

I don't necessarily believe that, but the clientele he is trying to appeal to, those who are moved by the political causes he espouses, and who are specifically buying from a "political designer" most likely would be.  Taking a Chinese model and dressing her with cultural references of Japan would fit the term cultural appropriation.  He either didn't think about it, or didn't think anyone else would notice.  Or maybe he didn't care, which then tells me he is only a political designer when it suits him and not from any particular personal conviction.

As for the derivative fashion, I give him a pass on the makeup.  No designer owns the intellectual property to geisha makeup, but that collar from McQueen (the pink and the purple outfits above) is pretty distinctive and there is very little difference between it and Sergio's.  We aren't talking about sleeve length (of which there are finite numbers), or a fitted top with a flared skirt.  It is especially egregious when this is an avante garde challenge where things are literally supposed be be innovative and ahead of the pack.  Calling back to something old isn't exactly something new.

[Ms Blue Jay]

37 minutes ago, violet and green said:

It was a grand design, whichever way you look at it, and some cornfed typical American model, like Marquise's for example, would not have looked as effective walking it.

It's weird that you think Asian models couldn't be from America?  There are a lot of Asian born Americans.  

Also, the white model wouldn't necessarily be American either.  

She's from Germany.

https://norasommerkamp.wixsite.com/actor/about

Edited March 1, 2020 by Ms Blue Jay

[hoosiermommy]

2 hours ago, Lemons said:

I know , enough with the screaming “cultural appropriation!” “You’re a bad person!” trend. This country we live in has thousands of different cultures. As long as someone isn’t using someone else’s culture in a derogatory way, there shouldn’t be a problem. 

I suppose the issue that I see is that it points to his lack of authenticity about his "political design".  Someone who is genuinely disturbed about, and making clothes to tell us about:

1. a better time in the 1950's

2. the plight of immigrant children on the boarder

3. transgendered people emerging from their cocoon

Is highly unlikely  to believe that there is gray area in what has been deemed as "cultural appropriation".  Is it possible?  Yes.  No one has to be in lock step with their chosen political party.  Is it likely? No, not if he believed half of what he says he does.

To whit, he comes across as exploitative, and disengenuous.

[LennieBriscoe]

None of the designers had a cohesive thought to his or her creation, a true VISION, but for Sergio.

The others looked like whatever. Even Brittany's butterfly motif was simply "I Iike pink and butterflies. How can I do something tacky with this?"

OTOH,  was Sergio really called out for "cultural appropriation" and not for his VERY obvious derivation from Christian Dior? 

 

[Jsage]

I came across an interesting interview with Sergio: 

https://fashionista.com/2019/12/celestino-couture-sergio-guadarrama-kade-johnson

It seems he actually has done a lot of work for different causes and charities. I can kind of see now why he came into the competition wanting to connect a cause to each of his looks. It's a lofty goal but he should have realized within a challenge or two that it just doesn't work within the confines of this competition. Of course, the article doesn't address his stubbornness that made him refuse to give up on the cause idea, even when he caught flak for it every challenge. It also doesn't mention his giant ego, which makes him so unlikeable even though the article proves he has done a lot of positive things.

[violet and green]

18 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

It's weird that you think Asian models couldn't be from America?  

Did I say that?

 

 

[mightysparrow]

34 minutes ago, LennieBriscoe said:

None of the designers had a cohesive thought to his or her creation, a true VISION, but for Sergio.

The others looked like whatever. Even Brittany's butterfly motif was simply "I Iike pink and butterflies. How can I do something tacky with this?"

OTOH,  was Sergio really called out for "cultural appropriation" and not for his VERY obvious derivation from Christian Dior? 

 

Thank you.

I don't recall ANYONE accusing Sergio of 'cultural appropriation'.  He WAS accused (rightly in my opinion) of lifting design ideas and themes from other designers.  Nina was especially harsh because it was the SECOND time it had happened and, once again, Sergio widened his eyes and pretended he didn't know what she was talking about.  As if.

Sergio wanted an Asian model to fit his 'theme'.  He didn't care if she was Chinese, Korean or Filipino. He just wanted someone who 'looked' Asian, whatever that means.

Cultural appropriation is a very sensitive subject.  People of colour are finally in a position to demand that their cultures be respected and some people seem to have an issue with that.  If someone who wasn't Indian were to wear a sari because they think it's beautiful and comfortable, I don't think I would have a problem with that.  But if the person made themselves up to 'look Indian', I would have a big problem with that.  But I'm not from India so I can't speak for someone who is.  Sergio didn't need to put geisha makeup on his model, especially since he was apparently honouring Japanese women WARRIORS who I doubt spent all that time making their faces up before they fought.  He was just throwing a bunch of 'Asian things' in a blender and tossing the mixture up on the catwalk.  THAT, in my opinion IS cultural appropriation AND offensive.

But, as @LennieBriscoe said, Sergio wasn't criticized for cultural appropriation.

 

 

 

[violet and green]

9 minutes ago, mightysparrow said:

Sergio didn't need to put geisha makeup on his model, especially since he was apparently honouring Japanese women WARRIORS who I doubt spent all that time making their faces up before they fought. 

Here you go:

https://www.google.com/search?q=onna+bugeisha&rlz=1C1AOHY_enAU708AU708&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj6ue_Ry_rnAhXryDgGHYsaB6QQ_AUoAXoECDkQAw

[mightysparrow]

9 minutes ago, violet and green said:

Here you go:

https://www.google.com/search?q=onna+bugeisha&rlz=1C1AOHY_enAU708AU708&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj6ue_Ry_rnAhXryDgGHYsaB6QQ_AUoAXoECDkQAw

So they didn't wear elaborate 'geisha' makeup like Sergio had his model wear.  Some of the women in the pictures are wearing makeup but not the ones in 'warrior dress'. 

But I'm not surprised Sergio didn't know what he was talking about.  He'd probably heard about these women warriors and filed the information away until he could use it to make himself look good.

[JoyGirl]

On 2/27/2020 at 10:14 PM, mightysparrow said:

Sergio knows how to put a garment together but he seems incapable of coming up with an original idea.

I have to disagree with you on that one, and it pains me to say it because I don't care for Sergio in the least.  His creation from one of the first shows, where they had to make an outfit out of Christmas ornaments, wreaths, wrapping, etc., was incredible, probably one of my favorite designs from anybody all season.  

[oceanview]

8 hours ago, AZChristian said:

I agree . . . this was the absolute epitome of gorgeous and creative.  However, there were TWO designers working for two days, so I think that has to be taken into consideration when we try to compare this to any of the finished garments we saw last week.

While I agree that one day was not enough for this kind of challenge, I still think they were all subpar …….and the sample above is absolutely impossible to live up to in one day.  That was so gorgeous that it became an iconic look.    They had fun, and hard work, and were rewarded with something super special.   Even something I liked on this runway had issues about a part of their design, one way or another

[Sew Sumi]

3 minutes ago, oceanview said:

While I agree that one day was not enough for this kind of challenge, I still think they were all subpar …….and the sample above is absolutely impossible to live up to in one day.  That was so gorgeous that it became an iconic look.    They had fun, and hard work, and were rewarded with something super special.   Even something I liked on this runway had issues about a part of their design, one way or another

This was a 2 day challenge.

[oceanview]

9 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

This was a 2 day challenge.

I stand corrected. However, that boggles my mind, as with a 2 day challenge, Geoffrey had time to do more with the bottom of his outfit … those granny pants ruined the whole thing IMO.  Perhaps if they had been a little longer and gold, instead of silver, it would have been more cohesive and make a better presentation.   I am more of a matchy matchy  type of person, as it would make this outfit look like it was made on purpose.   Sorry, I have no right to find fault with any of them as I could not do any better, and probably worse   LOL

[nokat]

8 hours ago, Lemons said:

I know , enough with the screaming “cultural appropriation!” “You’re a bad person!” trend. This country we live in has thousands of different cultures. As long as someone isn’t using someone else’s culture in a derogatory way, there shouldn’t be a problem.

Okay, as someone who did say appropriation about Sergio. Maybe because he is so political I found his geisha styling a bit so? And is not screaming it, just a nod.

 

Edited to add, I don't like hyperbole.

 

Edited March 2, 2020 by nokat

[nokat]

9 hours ago, oceanview said:

those granny pants ruined the whole thing IMO.

Was not a fan of those either. That is his aesthetic though, latex granny panties.
 

[mightysparrow]

9 hours ago, nokat said:

Okay, as someone who did say appropriation about Sergio. Maybe because he is so political I found his geisha styling a bit so? And is not screaming it, just a nod.

 

Edited to add, I don't like hyperbole.

 

Just to be clear, when I said that Sergio wasn't accused of cultural appropriation, I was referring to the critique he received from the judges.  I think there is a good argument to be made for cultural appropriation and Sergio, it just wasn't made on the show.

And I agree, nobody has been SCREAMING.  But to some, the slightest whisper from people who are traditionally disenfranchised can feel like a scream.

[Lady Iris]

On 2/29/2020 at 9:35 PM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Never forget the season where they made the contestants model walk while inside those giant zorb balls!

Aww wow! How'd I miss that?

I tell you, I never give much thought to the plight of models but I tip my proverbial cap to them at having to gracefully and grandly maneuver all those effing stairs at that egg building. Brandon stopped at what floor, I dont even know and all those women had to go down in heels and those outfits. They make it look effortless. I'd be clambering and stumbling my way down. That'd give Nina something to snark about.
 

 

[nokat]

I admit to laughing when Brandon got out his opera glasses.
 

[Captain Asshat]

On 2/28/2020 at 11:03 AM, pasdetrois said:

Sergio said that female samurai fought alongside men. Which may be true, but I saw a commercial last night - Mulan? - for a movie that features a female samurai who faced death because being samurai was forbidden to women.  Just an interesting TV coincidence.

I'm not going to say that Asian history is my strong suit, but Samurai were Japanese warriors, and I do believe that there were female Samurai who fought alongside men. "Mulan" is set in China, and the Chinese Imperial Army may very well have had different traditions/rules about  women serving in battle during the timeframe of the story.

[Captain Asshat]

On 2/28/2020 at 7:28 AM, stormy weather said:

Sergio... yeah sure there's his personality, his "I'm a political designer, I'm so much better than everyone else, I don't need mentorship, in my eyes I've already won and bla bla bla" but man, that dress was faaaaantastic. I loved it. The craftsmanship, the colors he chose, the cut. The "geisha" aesthetics is a very powerful one and yes, it's been done before, but he still put his twist on it and come on, it was tailored to perfection and it would've been a crime not to have him in the finale, especially when the same finale also includes VICTORIA.

The problem I have with Sergio's political story in this challenge is that he stated he was telling the story of a female Samurai -- a warrior. Then he put her in Geisha makeup. The roles of the Geishas and the Samurai are not interchangeable. He likely chose that makeup, because that's the only Asian look he knows, but it totally took away from his "women can be warriors just like men" story. Even in this forum, people are discussing his Geisha look, which is not what his look was supposed to be. In that respect, he ruined his own story.