S05.E11: Back From the Future - Part 1

[Trini]

As Supergirl tries to thwart a Toyman copycat, Winn Schott (guest star Jeremy Jordan) returns from the future.

David Harewood directed the episode written by Dana Horgan & Katie Rose Rogers.

Airdate: 1/26/2020

Edited January 24, 2020 by Trini

[Lady Calypso]

This...was an awesome episode. They utilized Winn more in this episode than in all of season 3. He interacted with Kara the most since late season 1. And Winn got to interact with several characters, including Nia! 

And dual Winn! Jeremy Jordan got to play good AND evil! I always said that JJ would kill it as an evil villain, and he did not disappoint. 

Winn has a family! That is so sweet! And I love that he's besties with Nia's relative and he has powers to resemble Dreamer's. 

I miss Winn so much, but now, with his family, he can't very well come back permanently, which saddens me. At least they had J'onn update Winn on everything, which is good. And he caught on to Brainy (at least Alex also noticed that there was something up as well). Another great acting moment from Jesse Rath, at least. 

I did love the moment with Winn wearing glasses and it fooling William. I bet Jeremy loved getting that parallel with Kara/Supergirl. 

Also...I don't know if I'm mistaken or not, but the Eye of the Tiger cover was sung by Jeremy, right? I can't imagine I was mistaking his voice there. 

I hate Lex so much. He's overtaking the show, at this point, way worse than Mon-El ever did. Speaking of Mon-El, I'm surprised to be a bit disappointed that there was no information on what he's been up to. 

Also, no, show. I will NEVER ship Kara/William. The guy is boring, but also...the actor looks like a plastic doll. 

[Josh371982]

Lena's a stupid witch and fuck Brainy working with that slimeball POS Luthor 

1 minute ago, Lady Calypso said:

This...was an awesome episode. They utilized Winn more in this episode than in all of season 3. He interacted with Kara the most since late season 1. And Winn got to interact with several characters, including Nia! 

And dual Winn! Jeremy Jordan got to play good AND evil! I always said that JJ would kill it as an evil villain, and he did not disappoint. 

Winn has a family! That is so sweet! And I love that he's besties with Nia's relative and he has powers to resemble Dreamer's. 

I miss Winn so much, but now, with his family, he can't very well come back permanently, which saddens me. At least they had J'onn update Winn on everything, which is good. And he caught on to Brainy (at least Alex also noticed that there was something up as well). Another great acting moment from Jesse Rath, at least. 

I did love the moment with Winn wearing glasses and it fooling William. I bet Jeremy loved getting that parallel with Kara/Supergirl. 

Also...I don't know if I'm mistaken or not, but the Eye of the Tiger cover was sung by Jeremy, right? I can't imagine I was mistaking his voice there. 

I hate Lex so much. He's overtaking the show, at this point, way worse than Mon-El ever did. Speaking of Mon-El, I'm surprised to be a bit disappointed that there was no information on what he's been up to. 

Also, no, show. I will NEVER ship Kara/William. The guy is boring, but also...the actor looks like a plastic doll. 

Yeah I'll never ship Kara/William. One reason is I'm tired of Kara liking Guys who are doucey but oh they have a secret and all for Kara. 

[Lantern7]

Man, I am tired. Watched Doctor Who and Supergirl back-to-back. Way too much game-changing stuff.

Winn's back! But there are two of them! I'm not sure where Toyman Winn came from. Is he the Winn from the new Earth-Prime? If that's the case, wouldn't Original Recipe Winn be wiped out of existence? Or is it a case of "Dude, the Legion can deflect anything"? Hence the tight relationship with Nura Nal and getting hitched to Ayla Ranzz. Jeremy Jordan did good in both roles. Calling J'onn "Papa Bear" was a sweet moment. So was the puking in the bag after J'onn brought him up to speed.

32 minutes ago, Josh371982 said:

. . . and fuck Brainy working with that slimeball POS Luthor

But it looks like it's killing Brainy to heed the words of Female Brainy to work with Lex. At least there's emotional conflict.

I'm mostly confused by the rest of the stuff. Or maybe it's because I had a lot of my plate today.

[legaleagle53]

2 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

Winn's back! But there are two of them! I'm not sure where Toyman Winn came from. Is he the Winn from the new Earth-Prime? If that's the case, wouldn't Original Recipe Winn be wiped out of existence? Or is it a case of "Dude, the Legion can deflect anything"? Hence the tight relationship with Nura Nal and getting hitched to Ayla Ranzz. Jeremy Jordan did good in both roles. Calling J'onn "Papa Bear" was a sweet moment. So was the puking in the bag after J'onn brought him up to speed.

Toyman Winn is from a parallel Earth. You remember the wormhole in Al's Bar that gave us multiple Brainys and different versions of the Kryptonian witches? Toyman Winn fell through the same wormhole. OUR Winn is the one who's back from hanging in the 31st Century, and HE'S the one from Earth-Prime.

[UNOSEZ]

Its probably more to do with the day's news of Kobe.. But this episode really didn't keep my interest at all... I enjoyed Winning.. It was good to see him.. And as someone upthread said he interacted with Kara in a meaningful way more in this one episode than like almost all of his scenes post season one... But other than that.. Meh.. I've already posted how I feel about Lena.. And she's even worse now because she's gaslighting Andrea.. If she knows the how and the why of the andrea of this world "betraying " her why still be all mad at her.. And since when was it "her mother's amulet" I remember it was something her momma talked about.. But it didn't belong to her and it seems like the power was always meant for Andrea... Smh.. And finally looks like they are gonna try and give us William/Kara... And he's so Bleh 

[shantown]

Jeremy Jordan did well, and it made me miss having him be part of the team. I liked having a scene with Winn, J’onn, Kara, and Alex together.
 

But they’re really gonna push Kara and William, huh?

 

[thuganomics85]

Winn!!  Glad that Jeremy Jordan's return wasn't just an Evil Winn from a different universe, but actual Winn came back as well.  It was great seeing him again and how he not only jumped right back into rhythm with Kara and Alex, but also having some standout scenes with Brainy and especially Nia.  He really did seem to bring the best out of almost everyone.  Winn might have had one of the biggest turnaround character-wise for me, since I still vaguely remember finding him obnoxious in the first season with his annoying crush on Kara, but he really elevated the proceedings here.

I swear, Kara, I love you and the optimism you bring at times, but this feels like the tenth time you've been shocked over how mean people can be online.  She really needs to accept that a good portion of the internet is a cesspool filled with toxic assholes, and keep your expectations so low that simple decency can actually seem like a miracle!

At least Brainy is realizing that he might have fucked up with throwing in with Lex.  Not sure how he'll be able to dig himself out of it and if he will be able to ever work things out with Nia again.

New base is cool, although I loved J'onn sudden "mission" was blatantly Dave Harewood all "Man, I don't have time for all of this acting crap!  I have an episode to direct!" about it.

Lena is rekindling her relationship with Andrea, all under a guise to find out more Leviathan stuff for Lex.  Oh, Lena!  Quit being petty and idiotic, please!

William is not only working with Kara now to bring down Lex, but is already being invited to game night.  Oh, and doing awkward "Totally attracted to you!" stuff with Kara.  Yeah, I'm actually missing Mon-El, of all people.  At least Chris Wood was charismatic and charming.

 

 

[Josh371982]

So gross the pushing of William with Kara. I see the IIC didnt learn from Mon-el. Why does a guy have to be a complete arrogant ass to get her attention? Its fucking gross. I'm still scared from season 2 with Mon-el where all she needed was him and her blog.

[bmoore4026]

Oh, my Legion fanboy geekyness was through the roof on this one with references to Ayla and Nura Nal.

So if there are two Winns, why aren't they have debilitating headaches like what's going on on Batwoman?  Dammit, Crisis!  I'm guessing Winn's comment about the Super Friends and Legion teaming up is foreshadowing to next year's big crossover, possibly "Zero Hour" or "The Great Darkness Saga"?  Probably not that one because it involves Darkseid.  Maybe something to do with Mordru and Glorith?  Hopefully Glorith because I liked her more than the Time Trapper.

Told you my Legion fanboy geekyness was through the roof.

[tennisgurl]

Winn! Winn I missed you buddy! Not only do we get Winn back, but we also get an evil alternate Winn who followed in his father footsteps! Its so wonderful to see Jeremy Jordan again, even if its just for a few episodes, I am so glad that he got to play both our Winn and evil Winn, he did a great job at playing an alternate, very different version of Winn in the Earth-X crossover, so I loved seeing him getting so much to do here. This is probably more than he got to do even back when he was on the show! He got nice moments with Kara, Alex, J'onn, and even Nia and Brainy. I especially liked the scene with him and Brainy, I always wanted them to have a talk about dealing with having evil relatives, and I think thats a talk that Brainy, who is clearly falling apart at the seams, really needs right now. 

Brainy Brainy Brainy, how can someone so smart make such obviously bad choices? Obviously Lex is going to be evil and do evil stuff, its Lex freaking Luther! As happy as I am to see Brainy finally get a more meaty storyline, I hope he comes clean about what he has done quickly, I hate him lying to everyone and working with that POS Lex and being apart from Nia. It is good to see that he isnt actually full on emotionless, like when he got sucked up into his genetic memories of his evil family, and is only trying to hold back his feelings, but none of this is going to end well. 

Speaking of smart people getting sucked into bullshit involving bad life choices and evil families, Lena is somehow being both very devious, and very naive. 

Cool getting more Legion shout outs, and Winn has a cute family! Whats that? The possibility of a crossover...

New base is cool, but its not a real Arrowverse base until several villains/family members/random strangers have wandered in! 

William is such a nonentity and the actor is so bland, he actually makes me miss Mon-El, who was at least played by a charming actor and had his moments of being interesting and endearing, and he and Kara have negative chemistry. Why are they so bad at giving Kara a love interest that really works?!

So we get confirmation that James is still around and is still in his small town saving the children, glad to know he is ok at least! 

[quarks]

Be honest with me: this William/Kara romance is basically just an attempt to make me feel much better about Kara/Mon-El, Kara/James, and even Evil Kara/Evil Oliver, right? 

[AnimeMania]

I will be the first person to say I have no idea what transgender means, but I am curiously suspicious when they are claiming that Nia Nal will eventually have children.

[BaggythePanther]

4 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

Its probably more to do with the day's news of Kobe.. But this episode really didn't keep my interest at all.

I’ve been so sad about this all day, I definitely understand this. 
It was cool to have Winn back, with a spiffy new outfit too. I was distracted during parts of the episode so I didn’t get to see all of his interactions but I loved his reunion with Kara/Alex/J’onn.
The Tower looks pretty cool, and of course there’s a balcony. Because where else are they going to have pep talks? Did they explain why Barry and Kate’s symbols were included with the other Superfriends, or was it just an acknowledgment that those are the other heroes Kara is close to?

What are they doing with Lena? They had a chance to reset everything but instead they have Lena basically rehash her plot from 5A, this time with Andrea and Lex instead of Kara and Hope. I missed that she referred to it as her mother’s amulet, but I’m hoping all these mentions of Lena’s mother throughout the season means we’re going to find out she’s alive and working for Leviathan. Maybe that’s what it’ll take for Lena to pull her head out of her ass.

I’m still enjoying Lex and I admit I laughed when he outed Kara on her tape recorder to cover his tracks. But what was the point of making Lex a good guy in this new reality if everyone is going to know the truth? Even William is suspicious of Lex.

Speaking of William, I figured he’d end up a love interest but it was done so badly. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised at this point. But for the first part of the season he was a dick, then he wasn’t, then he disappeared, and now all of a sudden they’ve caught feelings. It doesn’t work for me. 

 

[ottoDbusdriver]

I'm a little confused about the post-COIE Earths -- from what we were shown, Earth Prime was the result of the new universe created by Oliver and it has always existed as a merger of several Earths.  For example, we were shown that Flash/Supergirl have worked together on Earth Prime for years.

But the writers are making it seem like the Earths just merged as soon as the paragons returned to the "present".  

I can't believe that Winn from the future doesn't know about the events of the Crisis.

And what was the deal with Winn's Legion ship ?  It first appeared as super tiny when it appeared in the auditorium to deflect the bullet, but then when it landed it was full-size.  How does that work ?

The CGI tigers in this episode were just terrible.

[UNOSEZ]

1 hour ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

can't believe that Winn from the future doesn't know about the events of the Crisis.

It seems like ( for tv purposes)  most of what happened to our tv show main characters on the various shows happened the same.. At least major incidents... So Winners still left to go fight brainiac and stayed in the future... But in his future Lex and all his nonsense is canon... It wasn't until J'onn gave him the mental exposition dump that he realized his past present and future may have been altered... 

[Chicago Redshirt]

3 hours ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

I'm a little confused about the post-COIE Earths -- from what we were shown, Earth Prime was the result of the new universe created by Oliver and it has always existed as a merger of several Earths.  For example, we were shown that Flash/Supergirl have worked together on Earth Prime for years.

But the writers are making it seem like the Earths just merged as soon as the paragons returned to the "present". 

I can't believe that Winn from the future doesn't know about the events of the Crisis.

My understanding is with the rebirth of the universe, Earth-Prime has long existed. The Paragons were returned to Earth-Prime in 2019 and they retained knowledge of life in the previous set of universes but did not inherently gain knowledge of anything that might have changed. Pretty much anyone (with the exception of Lena Luthor, for some reason) who was not a Paragon originally had no knowledge of the earths prior to Earth-Prime. 

Martian Manhunter restored the knowledge of the previous Earths to a select few and a character's life experience in the previous set of Earths. And according to Arrow, Cisco invented a device that can duplicate that effect (because of course why not?)

So there's not  much reason to think that the future is going to know much more about the events of Crisis than the present does.

10 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

I will be the first person to say I have no idea what transgender means, but I am curiously suspicious when they are claiming that Nia Nal will eventually have children.

Even in reality, someone who is transgender can have biological children. If for discussion's sake, Nia has or recently had testes, Nia's sperm could be frozen and used to create children.

In a world of super-science and magic and so on, it's pretty easy to envision that Nia could have some sort of bodily transformation to have a uterus and to create eggs. Or that Nia's DNA could be combined with that of another to create a child that is incubated in an artificial womb.

And that is just scratching the surface of possibilities focusing on Nia having biological children. There are probably just as many possibilities involving her adopting or fostering children.

[quarks]

4 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Pretty much anyone (with the exception of Lena Luthor, for some reason) who was not a Paragon originally had no knowledge of the earths prior to Earth-Prime. 

 

Lex said that he agreed to return from the dead/help out the Monitor on the condition that Lena would get to live and remember everything, which a) he made that agreement before he OR the Monitor knew that there would be anything to forget, which does not make a lot of sense, and b) smacks very loudly of "We don't want to go through the plot of Lena not knowing a big secret that Kara/Alex/J'onn all know again" handwavium.

[Writing Wrongs]

I fell asleep toward the end of the episode and woke up when they were all sitting around drinking and Winn had glasses for some reason and William was there. I honestly, don't feel the need to re-watch.

And I still have no idea what the hell Leviathan is about. It reminds me of when I faded in and out of the Traveler storyline of Smallville.

[Lady Calypso]

5 minutes ago, quarks said:

Lex said that he agreed to return from the dead/help out the Monitor on the condition that Lena would get to live and remember everything, which a) he made that agreement before he OR the Monitor knew that there would be anything to forget, which does not make a lot of sense, and b) smacks very loudly of "We don't want to go through the plot of Lena not knowing a big secret that Kara/Alex/J'onn all know again" handwavium.

I agree, but both are dumb. They had a third option: have Lena not remember her past with Lex and have Kara ask J'onn to return Lena's memories so she can be aware of what a scumbag her brother is. Which is what I was hoping for, because it would have helped with the reconciliation of Lena/Kara, especially with regards to the knowledge about Kara being Supergirl. And it would have shown that Kara HAS changed and is more open to Lena knowing her secret.

But nooo, they went this dumb route instead, with Lex and Lena being partners and Lex completely doing evil things still, with nobody caring enough to stop him.

[Chicago Redshirt]

23 minutes ago, quarks said:

Lex said that he agreed to return from the dead/help out the Monitor on the condition that Lena would get to live and remember everything, which a) he made that agreement before he OR the Monitor knew that there would be anything to forget, which does not make a lot of sense, and b) smacks very loudly of "We don't want to go through the plot of Lena not knowing a big secret that Kara/Alex/J'onn all know again" handwavium.

I took that to very much be Lex lying.

Because the alternative doesn't make much sense. 

"OK, Monitor, unless you make Lena retain her memories of the universe where I am a bad guy in the new universe that is to be created which neither you nor I should have any knowledge of, I'm going to remain dead and not help out."

[quarks]

12 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I took that to very much be Lex lying.

Because the alternative doesn't make much sense. 

"OK, Monitor, unless you make Lena retain her memories of the universe where I am a bad guy in the new universe that is to be created which neither you nor I should have any knowledge of, I'm going to remain dead and not help out."

I don't think he was lying. In his scene with the Monitor just before Crisis, he stated that he wouldn't help unless the Monitor did something for him, and when the Monitor said, what, Lex said Lena.

I mean, no, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever, even if the condition was "Lena will not face any of the consequences of whatever happens in the next few episodes," but however nonsensical, it happened.

[mtlchick]

Winn for the... win. 

I will need to get some venn diagrams as to who knows what about the shift in the multi verse and what has actually changed.  Supergirl established there were worm holes (which would explain new Beth on Batwoman) but the latter threw in that the doubles suffer headaches, indicating that "there can only be one." 

 

Finally, at least "Eye Of The Tiger" is slightly less out of place as opposed to N Sync. 

[bettername2come]

Random pondering....did J'Onn give James his memories back? 'Cause he's been out of the loop, but all the other Superfriends found out...on the other hand, he has all that "Lex Luthor Tried to Murder Me 7 Times" PTSD, so he's probably mentally healthier without that burden...

[AnimeMania]

3 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

14 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

I will be the first person to say I have no idea what transgender means, but I am curiously suspicious when they are claiming that Nia Nal will eventually have children.

Even in reality, someone who is transgender can have biological children. If for discussion's sake, Nia has or recently had testes, Nia's sperm could be frozen and used to create children.

In a world of super-science and magic and so on, it's pretty easy to envision that Nia could have some sort of bodily transformation to have a uterus and to create eggs. Or that Nia's DNA could be combined with that of another to create a child that is incubated in an artificial womb.

And that is just scratching the surface of possibilities focusing on Nia having biological children. There are probably just as many possibilities involving her adopting or fostering children.

If her own biological sister didn't receive her special powers, then I would be dubiously suspicious if she could just adopt a child that would have the powers, especially since she is an alien and her powers are hereditary, passed down through the female line, are extremely rare, and poorly understood.

3 hours ago, Writing Wrongs said:

I fell asleep toward the end of the episode and woke up when they were all sitting around drinking and Winn had glasses for some reason and William was there. I honestly, don't feel the need to re-watch.

I think the writers were having a laugh at William's (and the viewer's) expense. Winn wearing glasses kept him from being recognized by William as the crazed Toyman that was all over the news, the same way it keeps Kara from detection as Supergirl.

Did Lex take the memory cube from Winn's ship? Does that mean he has access to/knowledge about everything that will happen in the future? How could any superhero, especially Brainy who knows Lex did this, allow that to happen?

[Quark]

(Nice) Winn is so adorable. So great seeing him back. I want him back permanently.

[Bulldog]

11 hours ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

The CGI tigers in this episode were just terrible.

I thought that they actually were not suppose to look real, but rather were suppose to be life size versions of toy tigers.  I don't know if there is a special name for them, but I remember when I was a kid (MANY years ago) having a set of toy animals that had the exaggerated movable joints that were sort of spaced from the rest of the body.  I thought that was the look they were going for, especially to tie in with the whole Toyman theme.

[angora]

So happy to see Winn again, especially OUR Winn! IIRC, the previews only showed Toyman Winn, and I was still excited about Jeremy's return, but so great that we got Winn Prime too, flexing his Legionnaire confidence and just generally being lovely. I loved how he, Kara, and Alex went down a "OMG, we have so much to catch up on!" tangent in the middle of his initial freakout over Toyman Winn's escape, and all the one-on-one scenes were fantastic. Encouraging Nia, that excellent scene with Kara about what it's like being around her (and telling her that "Kara" is basically the "Megan" of the 31st century was cute,) and knowing something was up with Brainy. All so good!

And I laughed at the fact that "glasses = complete disguise" apparently works for humans too. Maybe Kara's secret identity isn't so improbably after all.

So grateful for that scene with Winn and Brainy toward the end. We got little hints throughout that Brainy wasn't as emotionless as he purported to be, but it was good to see definitive proof of it, and good that he told SOMEONE at least (now everyone else! C'mon Brainy, keeping secrets never turns out well for anyone on a TV show!) Jesse Rath killed that scene. And re: Lex, I don't think Brainy never expected Lex to be evil. From what he was saying to Winn, it sounds more like he expected to be able to anticipate Lex's evil moves and stay ahead of them. His issue is that Lex is too much of a wildcard for his probability analysis.

Everyone geeking out over the new base at J'onn's place was adorable. I love my superfriends! Nice that J'onn made sure to install some "instant crossover" buttons for Barry and Kate to come over too. And @thuganomics85, I totally picked up on J'onn's, "Well, I'm off to direct the episo- I mean, fly around for very important mission reasons!"

[ottoDbusdriver]

4 hours ago, Bulldog said:

I thought that they actually were not suppose to look real, but rather were suppose to be life size versions of toy tigers.  I don't know if there is a special name for them, but I remember when I was a kid (MANY years ago) having a set of toy animals that had the exaggerated movable joints that were sort of spaced from the rest of the body.  I thought that was the look they were going for, especially to tie in with the whole Toyman theme.

Even for larger versions of toy tigers, I thought the CGI was pretty bad.

[Trini]

I thought this was a really solid episode! It was great to have Winn and Jeremy Jordan back for a bit, and he even got to play an evil version of himself! Loved his interactions with everyone.

Leviathan is still such a vague threat, they really need to actually show how it is the worst threat ever.

Oh look, Lena doing the same thing to Andrea that she is so mad about Kara (supposedly) doing to her. Can someone talk some sense into Lena, please.

I'm glad that Brainy came clean to someone, and they didn't drag it out. But he also has to tell the rest of the team. Because I know i'm going to hate Team Luthor being 3 steps ahead of Team Supergirl with this Leviathan arc.

On 1/26/2020 at 10:01 PM, Lady Calypso said:

... Speaking of Mon-El, I'm surprised to be a bit disappointed that there was no information on what he's been up to. ...

I was too; but I suppose no one really wants to talk about exes? Plus, just in general they really seem to want to forget Mon-El happened; especially when they're introducing the newest love interest.

 

On 1/26/2020 at 11:27 PM, tennisgurl said:

... William is such a nonentity and the actor is so bland, he actually makes me miss Mon-El, who was at least played by a charming actor and had his moments of being interesting and endearing, and he and Kara have negative chemistry. Why are they so bad at giving Kara a love interest that really works?!

...

I mean, why not William? Look at how 'fans' react to every single love interest (not only Kara's); they're clearly not going to please everyone. He's bland for a reason. I do like that they're letting her have a love life again.

 

20 hours ago, BaggythePanther said:

... The Tower looks pretty cool, and of course there’s a balcony. Because where else are they going to have pep talks?

LOL! It was really considerate of J'onn to include a Balcony of Emotions in his floorplans! Also useful for flying in and out.

 

Quote

Did they explain why Barry and Kate’s symbols were included with the other Superfriends, or was it just an acknowledgment that those are the other heroes Kara is close to?

I think that's pretty much it. And maybe it's a signal that those are the crossovers we'll see in the future. I definitely approve of Kate and Barry visiting.

[bros402]

YAY! Winn!

 

On 1/27/2020 at 12:17 AM, AnimeMania said:

I will be the first person to say I have no idea what transgender means, but I am curiously suspicious when they are claiming that Nia Nal will eventually have children.

Transgender is someone born in the wrong body. Nia (and her actress) were assigned male at birth, and realized they were female. Therefore, she is a trans woman.

If the character figured out she was trans when she was like 13 or so, they could've frozen her testes, so sperm could be extracted at a later date.

Here is an article on the actress, if you were interested in a good read - https://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2015/10/19/becoming-nicole/

15 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

My understanding is with the rebirth of the universe, Earth-Prime has long existed. The Paragons were returned to Earth-Prime in 2019 and they retained knowledge of life in the previous set of universes but did not inherently gain knowledge of anything that might have changed. Pretty much anyone (with the exception of Lena Luthor, for some reason) who was not a Paragon originally had no knowledge of the earths prior to Earth-Prime. 

Martian Manhunter restored the knowledge of the previous Earths to a select few and a character's life experience in the previous set of Earths. And according to Arrow, Cisco invented a device that can duplicate that effect (because of course why not?)

So there's not  much reason to think that the future is going to know much more about the events of Crisis than the present does.

Even in reality, someone who is transgender can have biological children. If for discussion's sake, Nia has or recently had testes, Nia's sperm could be frozen and used to create children.

In a world of super-science and magic and so on, it's pretty easy to envision that Nia could have some sort of bodily transformation to have a uterus and to create eggs. Or that Nia's DNA could be combined with that of another to create a child that is incubated in an artificial womb.

And that is just scratching the surface of possibilities focusing on Nia having biological children. There are probably just as many possibilities involving her adopting or fostering children.

I am guessing Lex's deal with the Monitor preserved the Lena of Earth-38 in some dimensional pocket somewhere.

I imagine if they did something, it would be a sci fi womb, versus a transformation of some kind.

[Lady Calypso]

9 hours ago, Trini said:

I mean, why not William? Look at how 'fans' react to every single love interest (not only Kara's); they're clearly not going to please everyone. He's bland for a reason. I do like that they're letting her have a love life again.

For me, I don't care who Kara gets as a love interest. But William is not a great choice, by any means. I think that, for me, it has to do with the actor. There's just nothing there for me. 

But I also don't mind if Kara never gets a love interest. I like that she doesn't need to be in a relationship to be happy. 

But, if they want her with someone, they gotta find better actors. Hell, at this point, I'd be accepting of Mon-El returning with a new personality. He was god damn awful in season 2, but he WAS better in season 3, especially once they stopped having Kara's story ALL about Mon-El and their romance (although, now with the actual knowledge of the behind-the-scenes stuff going on with Melissa, I have a better understanding of why they may have pursued Kara's story like that). 

William is just...blah. And the actor is fairly flat as well. I think they need to stop pairing Kara off with guys who start out as enemies. Kara is compatible with someone more similar to her, one where she's having fun and smiling. They need to cast a character who she isn't hostile with from the start. 

 

[Trini]

3 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

But I also don't mind if Kara never gets a love interest. I like that she doesn't need to be in a relationship to be happy. 

For me, it ends up being a bit of a double standard when she's compared to her male superhero counterparts. And it reinforces the idea that when it comes to success, power, and love, women can't have it all.
 

3 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

William is just...blah. And the actor is fairly flat as well. I think they need to stop pairing Kara off with guys who start out as enemies. Kara is compatible with someone more similar to her, one where she's having fun and smiling. They need to cast a character who she isn't hostile with from the start. 

Mostly agree.

[shantown]

16 hours ago, Trini said:

I mean, why not William? Look at how 'fans' react to every single love interest (not only Kara's); they're clearly not going to please everyone. He's bland for a reason. I do like that they're letting her have a love life again.

6 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

For me, I don't care who Kara gets as a love interest. But William is not a great choice, by any means. I think that, for me, it has to do with the actor. There's just nothing there for me. 

William is just...blah. And the actor is fairly flat as well. I think they need to stop pairing Kara off with guys who start out as enemies. Kara is compatible with someone more similar to her, one where she's having fun and smiling. They need to cast a character who she isn't hostile with from the start. 

You're never going to please everyone, but bland is not the way to address that problem at all. There needs to be some reason why we should root for Kara and a proposed LI at all. So far "bland" is the nicest thing you can say about him. He's a rude coworker at best. Brushing shoulders after you agree not to steal each others bylines is not the groundwork for a rootable romance, IMO.

I need to see someone with qualities that complement Kara's own. Someone with a personality. Someone who they're willing to build a romance with, not have it suddenly appear because the Valentine's Day episode is next week.

Edited January 28, 2020 by shantown

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 1/27/2020 at 2:22 PM, AnimeMania said:

If her own biological sister didn't receive her special powers, then I would be dubiously suspicious if she could just adopt a child that would have the powers, especially since she is an alien and her powers are hereditary, passed down through the female line, are extremely rare, and poorly understood.

 

Again, there's (presumably) a whole planet full of people who potentially have the Dreamer gene that she could adopt, and it could simply be that her adopted child (or great grandchild or whatever) eventually has an offspring with someone who does have the Dreamer gene. 

[Trini]

30 minutes ago, shantown said:

You're never going to please everyone, but bland is not the way to address that problem at all. There needs to be some reason why we should root for Kara and a proposed LI at all. So far "bland" is the nicest thing you can say about him. He's a rude coworker at best. Brushing shoulders after you agree not to steal each others bylines is not the groundwork for a rootable romance, IMO.

Nobody has to like William (I think he's kind of just... there), but they have shown that he and Kara are both passionate about finding and exposing the truth, so they've got that in common. And while it doesn't erase first impressions, they did show that the "rude coworker" thing was an act. But now that he is definitely a love interest, I expect they'll flesh him out more.

[ruby24]

Okay, first of all, why can't Brainy just stay green all the time now? Come on! The only reason is because people (whether it's him or the makeup people) are lazy about putting him in the makeup every day. I call BS. They went through all that trouble to give him an actual decent look and they still don't use it.

Second, oh my god, I HATE this William guy. HATE him. Every time he's not onscreen I forget he exists, and then when he comes back I go "ugh, right, HIM." I don't know what the problem is with giving Kara a decent love interest, but this is NOT IT. 

It's just so bad. SO bad. Why can't they just try Kara and Brainy, now that he's basically a new character? For all I know, these writers are so terrible at writing any kind of romance, that that might also be bad, but anyone would be better than this dude. Geez, he even makes Mon-el look better.

[Lady Calypso]

12 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

Okay, first of all, why can't Brainy just stay green all the time now? Come on! The only reason is because people (whether it's him or the makeup people) are lazy about putting him in the makeup every day. I call BS. They went through all that trouble to give him an actual decent look and they still don't use it.

I don't blame Jesse Rath for not wanting to sit in a makeup chair for (I'm guessing about) three hours a day, putting on makeup, nor one or two hours a day taking it off. It's not an easy process and that's why we don't see a lot of aliens in their true form for very long on this show. If Jesse ever had an early call, like 7am, he'd likely need to be at work for 4am just to put on the makeup. 

So, it's not laziness; it's the fact that it would take them a whole lot of time to apply the makeup. Also, factor in the fact that having that green paint on his skin all the time, which could very well be irritating. That's why they also use J'onn's Martian look less often. It just takes too long if he had to be in that every single episode. So it costs them a lot less to only show them occasionally in their true form.

 

[ruby24]

I think Jonn's is about the money, since Martian Manhunter's look is CGI, right? I can understand more why they're able to do that less.

Makeup is just about a choice of it taking too long. But it's not like it's his whole body, does it really take three hours?

[Trini]

They specifically simplified Brainy's look, so it shouldn't take as long as it did before. I don't expect to see him green all the time, but I would like to see him in his alien form more often. It doesn't make sense that he uses the image inducer 24/7.

1 hour ago, ruby24 said:

Why can't they just try Kara and Brainy, now that he's basically a new character?

I would also like to see an attempt, but they've had Brainy connected to Nia for a while now; it would be odd.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Trini

[iMonrey]

So is Winn going to be in Part 2 as well? If he thinks everything has been fixed why didn't he rush back home to his family, instead of hanging around for game night?

Can someone explain to me who exactly the Legionnaires are and who the Superfriends are? Thanks.

Sometimes I think this show has just gotten way too complicated for me to follow. 

[angora]

Re: makeup, Jesse Rath played Alak Tarr on Defiance for three seasons, so he's nothing if not willing to put in the extra 3-5 hours getting makeup applied and washing it off everyday. I'm not finding it now (I'll link if I can find it later,) but I saw one interview with him where he said that, pre-image inducer, none of the rest of the cast knew with he really looked like because he was always the first on set and the last to leave because of the makeup, so they never saw him without it. I remember he mentioned trying to describe himself to them and told them he looked like "a Mexican Keanu Reeves."

And I'm thinking the ship has sailed at this point as far as Kara/Brainy goes. I love their friendship, but I just can't see Kara getting with Nia's ex-boyfriend.

[Chicago Redshirt]

23 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

So is Winn going to be in Part 2 as well? If he thinks everything has been fixed why didn't he rush back home to his family, instead of hanging around for game night?

Can someone explain to me who exactly the Legionnaires are and who the Superfriends are? Thanks.

Sometimes I think this show has just gotten way too complicated for me to follow. 

The Legionnaires are a bunch of 30th Century super-heroes who have ships that can travel through time and flight rings. In at least a comics version of the Legion, Supergirl was a semi-regular member, and she was at least for a time dating Brainy.

In the show, Supergirl has not been to the Legion's future, but some Legionnaires have been to Supergirl's present. Mon-El joined up with the Legion and brought some of them back to Kara's time in a previous season. Brainy is a member of the Legion, and we have also seen him use a Legion flight ring. We also saw Saturn Girl and had various other Legionnaires from the comics referenced. Dreamer from the show has a distant ancestor with similar powers in the Legion. Finally, Winn went to join the Legion for reasons but has come back in this episode.  

As for Superfriends, the broader pop culture reference is to a Saturday morning cartoon version of the Justice League. There were a couple chief incarnations of it. The first had Superman, Batman, Robin, Wonder Woman and Aquaman as the only members, with non-powered teens Marvin and Wendy and their pet Wonder Dog as kid-friendly characters. Another version had a broader roster of Leaguers, including Green Lantern, Flash and a bunch of characters made up for the show, like Apache Chief (who could become a giant), Samurai (who had tornado powers) and the Wonder Twins, Zan and Jayna (who could turn respectively into any form of water and any animal after they touched).

In the context of the show, I think it is the nickname that what otherwise might be called Team Supergirl. So short-hand for Martian Manhunter, Brainy, Dreamer and Alex, currently.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Chicago Redshirt

[shantown]

Wait, did Winn say his kid was 2? If the show is on the same timeline as real life, Winn only left at the end of season 3, so he's been gone about 2.5 years. That was pretty quick for him to find a wife and have a kid!

[Lady Calypso]

5 minutes ago, shantown said:

Wait, did Winn say his kid was 2? If the show is on the same timeline as real life, Winn only left at the end of season 3, so he's been gone about 2.5 years. That was pretty quick for him to find a wife and have a kid!

I thought about this, and the only explanation I could come up with is that maybe this Winn is actually a year ahead. Maybe, to him, he was gone for 3.5 years. I know, time travel is weird. 

11 minutes ago, angora said:

Re: makeup, Jesse Rath played Alak Tarr on Defiance for three seasons, so he's nothing if not willing to put in the extra 3-5 hours getting makeup applied and washing it off everyday. I'm not finding it now (I'll link if I can find it later,) but I saw one interview with him where he said that, pre-image inducer, none of the rest of the cast knew with he really looked like because he was always the first on set and the last to leave because of the makeup, so they never saw him without it. I remember he mentioned trying to describe himself to them and told them he looked like "a Mexican Keanu Reeves."

Huh, I didn't know this! Well, that's on me for presuming! 

[Lantern7]

10 minutes ago, shantown said:

Wait, did Winn say his kid was 2? If the show is on the same timeline as real life, Winn only left at the end of season 3, so he's been gone about 2.5 years. That was pretty quick for him to find a wife and have a kid!

Maybe his time doesn’t parallel to ours, and he’s been in the future longer than two years. I’m tickled he’s hooked up with a canon Legionnaire in Ayla Ranzz.

One good thing about Earth-Prime: now the Legends can meet the Legion. Sara Lance fighting Val Armorr (aka Karate Kid, created two decades before we met Daniel Larusso and Mr. Miyagi) would take an entire episode.

Is “The Tower” a reference to the Watchtower, the longtime lunar HQ of the Justice League?

[shantown]

35 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I thought about this, and the only explanation I could come up with is that maybe this Winn is actually a year ahead. Maybe, to him, he was gone for 3.5 years. I know, time travel is weird. 

Time travel makes my head hurt. 🤯

[bros402]

Why do we need Kara in a relationship? Can't we just have her have good friendships, like with Lena and Batwoman?

[Featherhat]

Jesse Rath being completely believable, comfortable and awesome as Alak Tarr covered in layers of makeup was the reason I knew people connecting with him under the Brainey make up when he first arrived was going to be a piece of cake. I think they originally hired him basically for that experience and awesomeness. 

1 hour ago, bros402 said:

Why do we need Kara in a relationship? Can't we just have her have good friendships, like with Lena and Batwoman?

She's been without a proper romance since Mon El which is unusual for a CW show so I'm not surprised. Currently Lena isn't a good friendship - although obviously lots of screentime is being devoted to it, and she an Batwoman will meet on screen 1-2 times a year and most of her on screen friends and family have romances. I don't mind them doing it, it's a part of life but William just feels like a bland non entity even with the obligatory "oh we were opposed, now we connected a bit, clearly there's something there." I hope it doesn't last too long as you're right he doesn't exactly feel necessary.

I'm going with Winn being in the future for longer than has passed in the present, like Mon-El when he returned with a wife or Jax on LOT when he also had a wife and baby after "two months." 

[Rushmoras]

Better episode than the last one, but still, I don't like this soft-reboot stuff after 5 seasons. And why does Winn's doppleganger does not go "Ah, my head!" like Alice's doppleganger in Batwoman? Consistency, man, it is important.

Addendum: you all have these magic-science mumbo jumbo, which you can create within 5 min. in to the episode, and yet you chose to disguise Winn the same way as Kara. Producers, with all do respect - go f' yourselves. 

Edited January 29, 2020 by Rushmoras