S01.E10: How Queer Everything Is Today!

[Trini]

While Gotham busies itself reacting to Batwoman's awkward encounter, Alice celebrates her ultimate act of vengeance with Mouse (guest star Sam Littlefield). A devastated Mary focuses on Jacob Kane's trial, while Sophie seeks advice about her love life from someone unexpected. As they tackle the newest threat to Gotham, Luke prioritizes protecting Batwoman's secret, and Kate must decide what she is willing to do to honor Batwoman's identity...and her own.

Jeff Hunt directed the episode written by Caroline Dries.

Airdate: 1/19/2020

 

[Lady Calypso]

Um...ok, what? I heard there was a big cliffhanger, but...the last thing I expected was Beth to be separate from Alice. Again...what? 

I didn't see that coming...at all. So what does that really mean for the Kane family, since this drastically changes everything that we were introduced to? Luckily, it's only episode 10, so there's technically only eight episodes of retcon they have to go through instead of two or three seasons, but still. I am so confused. Unless this new Beth is just some doppelganger.

Otherwise, I enjoyed the episode a lot. I liked Parker, surprisingly. And I liked a lot of the character moments. Mary is still my favourite, so watching her spiral a bit was interesting to watch. 

Edited January 20, 2020 by Lady Calypso

[MrWhyt]

ugh that was clunky, so many opportunities in their stand off to just punch Alice and end things but they had to draw things out.

[bettername2come]

I really enjoyed this one. First because I was just amused by a villain with a Go Fund Me. Then by having her actually be a sympathetic high school student who truly never meant to hurt anyone. And then by having her have standards and keep Kate's identity safe. I really love that Kate supports her and had Batwoman come out because of her, but that she still didn't let the girl get off scot-free and gave her a fair consequence. I wouldn't mind seeing her occasionally. 

I did agree with Luke about the misinformation being a good thing. Of course, as soon as he said that I knew it would come out this episode. At least she didn't give out a huge amount of specific information, unlike Nia from Supergirl who admitted to being a half-human half-alien trans-woman from an alien-friendly town who broke her nose in kickball at 15. No idea how that identity hasn't gone public. 

I assume Kara wrote the article on Batwoman since it was in Catco. She must have been so excited when Kate called her. I really like their friendship.

Did...did Kate actually just get her birthday wish? That ending confused me.

[nilyank]

1 minute ago, bettername2come said:

I assume Kara wrote the article on Batwoman since it was in Catco. She must have been so excited when Kate called her. I really like their friendship.

 

Yep. They showed Kara Danvers' byline.

[quarks]

1) Delighted to see Kara remembering that she's a journalist, even if she's doing that on another show.

2) Awww, Rachel Maddow is sad about the death of the guy she had a one night stand with [wow is that kinda hard to type about Rachel Maddow, heh] and willing to gossip her way past that grief, heh. Still, nice of Batwoman to acknowledge Oliver Queen's death, however briefly.

3) This week's bad guy had a Go Fund Me. I admit it, I laughed. Also at the community service punishment. I hope she returns and becomes a sidekick of sorts.

4) Batwoman refusing to kiss the Captain America dude. Hee.

4) So....that end! Is this Beth a fake or is this a Beth from another Earth who managed to survive Crisis, the way a few other characters did over on Supergirl?

[Bulldog]

I like that on a show featuring caped crusaders, face swapping, and Alice in Wonderland loving villains, the bridge too far for these writers was showing Kate actually eating carbs.

[Maverick]

 Alice's history didn't change because everyone was still calling Alice and Kate sisters.  My first thought was post-Crisis the Kane girls were triplets with the third becoming Alice but I think Crisis is a misdirect.  If something happened in Crisis, everyone else should know about it yet the previews make it seem like everyone is surprised by it.  If she's a doppleganger from another Earth, she should be taken aback by the differences in Earth Prime but she seemed perfectly at ease.     

 I love that in a world that now contains metahumans, dopplegangers, aliens, magic and highly advanced holography no one can believe that someone could impersonate Jacob.   But then they also refuse to believe the lone witness when she says her stepfather didn't kill her mother when logic says she be lying about him doing it, not the other way around.

[thuganomics85]

Batwoman is back and I continue to believe that Kate might actually secretly miss dealing with the Crisis situation, because multi-dimensional destruction and even alien overlords (not to mention the egos of her counterparts.  And Lex) might still be easier than some of the shit she has to deal with here!

In typical CW D.C. fashion, they made no bones about going completely broad and on the nose when it comes to addressing social issues in this episode, but I'm okay with it since it's almost part of this franchise's charm.  Plus, I did like it leading to Kate coming out as "Batwoman", which is something rare in the superhero world.  Parker was likable enough (despite her whole blackmail thing.  Teenagers, am I right?!), and I wouldn't mind seeing her again.

Yeah, while it's not quite as bad as "No one on The Flash believing Barry that Clifford was The Thinker since he's in a wheelchair" was, everyone acting like Mary is a nutter for thinking someone impersonated Jacob is silly to me.  Even if they didn't know about Crisis or have the craziness that goes down, Gotham has enough insanity in its history to not make that too far-fetched.  Clayface still exists, right?

Still think something is going down with Dr. Campbell, because Sebastian Roche has been used very little so far.

Glad Kate and Mary hugged.  But Mary needs to find out the truth, dammit!

Alice really has already become one of my favorite villains in the Arrowverse, thanks to Rachel Skarsten.  If loving her is wrong, I don't want to be right!

That ending was... interesting.  Beth is back?  Is this due to the whole "merging the Earths" together thing during the crossover?  Another one of Alice's tricks?  Hmm...

[Cthulhudrew]

I haven't been watching this show (tuned in to see how they incorporated Crisis into the mix), so I don't know the answer to this:

Have they previously connected Batwoman to the Nolan films? Because Kate's sidekick mentioned the subway system having been changed to be unhackable since the "Scarecrow incident" (presumably Batman Begins).

[quarks]

54 minutes ago, Cthulhudrew said:

I haven't been watching this show (tuned in to see how they incorporated Crisis into the mix), so I don't know the answer to this:

Have they previously connected Batwoman to the Nolan films? Because Kate's sidekick mentioned the subway system having been changed to be unhackable since the "Scarecrow incident" (presumably Batman Begins).

I noticed that too, and wondered. The Nolan films were the one major DC live action media not referenced in Crisis on Infinite Earths (well, assuming we aren't including the George Reeves Superman, and, really, why would we?) other than Lois & Clark, which has gotten previous nods in Supergirl, and Gotham. We got the other Batman films, the DCEU films, the Superman films, various TV shows, Kevin Conroy who kinda counts for everything animated, even the Super Friends cartoon, but not the Nolan films - unless we're counting the initial setup for Arrow which was a pretty direct ripoff of the Nolan trilogy.

And yet here it was, referenced in post-Crisis. It was a light enough reference that they at least in theory wouldn't have needed permission - and the rest of Batwoman, specifically, the Joker references, don't quite match up to the Nolan films. So it might just have been a little Easter egg.

To specifically answer your question, though, no, they haven't referenced the Nolan films in Batwoman before those. Numerous major Bat villains have been mentioned, though - Joker, Penguin, Riddler - so it's also possible the Scarecrow reference was just another example of this. 

[BaggythePanther]

I kept expecting Jacob to be offed in jail. Shouldn’t he be under protection?

Glad Luke knows about Crisis, so Kate has one confidant. Is that why she wasn’t up to date with her father’s case? Also crazy that in a place like Gotham that has some strange villains, people are finding hard to believe Jacob was framed.

I think Beth returning might be related to Kate’s birthday wish. But then how does Kate have the power to make birthday wishes come true? I think what is causing that will tie into Crisis.

I was so happy to see Kara’s byline on Batwoman’s coming out article. The headlines are so dramatic though.

Edited January 20, 2020 by BaggythePanther

[Primal Slayer]

It was a decent episode but I felt like Kate/Batwoman was EXTRA awkward in this episode...like more than usual. It was like Ruby forgot how to act natural.

Loved seeing the lens in Batwomans mask...it made the overall Batwoman look, look very good and comicy. 

Not sure how Kate doesn't have any memories of Prime Earth, while she should remember everything Pre-COIE she shouldn't be a complete stranger in this world. 

With the surprise twist at the end that we have *SHOCK* 2 Beths! One that didnt get kidnapped! I pray that they turned Beth into two separate characters, making her into a twin so we get Beth/Alice. 

Nice little shoutout to Catco/Kara interviewing Batwoman, the cover was better than most promotional shots we got lol.

[Maverick]

 Is the magazine really called Catco?   That's an ok name for a media conglomerate but as a magazine title it kinda....sucks.   

 If Beth being back is connected to Kate's wish, maybe the Monitor is still around and giving the Paragons gifts, like  he gave Oliver the chance to say goodbye to Mia and William.  

[Trini]

I was hoping that Batwoman wouldn't be much affected by COIE, so I'm hoping that this new Beth is a Mouse trick.  Otherwise, I don't like this twist. Kate had finally accepted that the Beth that was her sister was gone, and she could stop giving her chance after chance. A Beth doppelganger might be too weird a complication for this show.

So, Kate's getting a sidekick? Luke's already a techie, so I'm guessing she'll be more of a protégé for Kate. And do people actually name their baby girls "Parker"?

I mean, I knew they'd eventually get rid of Sophie's husband, but offscreen with just a line of dialog? They didn't even make a story out of it! Hopefully this means they have other stuff for her to do.

SuperBat rise! Loved seeing CatCo magazine and Kara's name.

Edited January 22, 2020 by Trini

[Trini]

On 1/19/2020 at 11:27 PM, Cthulhudrew said:

I haven't been watching this show (tuned in to see how they incorporated Crisis into the mix), so I don't know the answer to this:

Have they previously connected Batwoman to the Nolan films? Because Kate's sidekick mentioned the subway system having been changed to be unhackable since the "Scarecrow incident" (presumably Batman Begins).

You mean besides filming in some of the same Chicago locations? Not directly, I don't think.

Edited January 22, 2020 by Trini
ugh - why do I even type in the AM??

[possibilities]

That was a tiny little cord holding back that runaway train.

Nevertheless, I did like this episode more than some of the others.

[Jediknight]

3 hours ago, Maverick said:

 If Beth being back is connected to Kate's wish, maybe the Monitor is still around and giving the Paragons gifts, like  he gave Oliver the chance to say goodbye to Mia and William.  

Barry's gift is being on the same Earth as Kara and free Dodgers season tickets.  Kara's gift is being on the same Earth as Barry and her new bestie Kate.

Had to chuckle at Maddow saying that she wanted politics to stay out of superheroes.  All Batwoman did was come out of the closet, and somehow that's making a political statement.

You knew that Batwoman was gonna come out when that girl was telling her about her life.

Kate and Mary have reconciled, and Lucas made Kate a cupcake.  Kate, you really do have a great sister and a great friend.

[UNOSEZ]

6 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said:

I haven't been watching this show (tuned in to see how they incorporated Crisis into the mix), so I don't know the answer to this:

Have they previously connected Batwoman to the Nolan films? Because Kate's sidekick mentioned the subway system having been changed to be unhackable since the "Scarecrow incident" (presumably Batman Begins).

Can't say for sure at the very least they are leaning that way... Or some mix up of both... On the show Bruce has been gone for a while bit while he was still in the cape running around Gotham... Lucius and then Luke both worked for him... So maybe the incident happened like it did in begins( I don't remember it myself)  but on this earth either Luke was right by his side or Lucius told him about it before he died

[UNOSEZ]

9 minutes ago, Jediknight said:

Had to chuckle at Maddow saying that she wanted politics to stay out of superheroes.  All Batwoman did was come out of the closet, and somehow th

Unfortunately to some it is.. Her "Proclaiming " it and shoving it down their throats is seen as a political statement... Why... No idea

[Featherhat]

Rachel Maddow as the voice of Vesper Lynd will never not be really weird. 

Kate's frustration and disgust with Batwoman getting a boost after the city started shipping her with "Mr March" was amusing. 

I know it was the theme of the episode and coming out as Batwoman being a lesbian was necessary for Kate on a personal level but Luke was right the first time, the less personal information they have about Batwoman the less they're likely to connect her to the also very out and famous Kate Kane. Obviously Parker's pain directly linked into the clusterfuck that was the secrecy and outing of her relationship with Sophie. Parker's rant was true and heartbreaking but I still cringe when these shows get too meta. And I'm still not a fan of fandom terms on actual shows either. I wouldn't mind seeing Parker again in the future. 

Poor Mary, channeling her grief into nonstop trying to help Jacob as escaping dealing with it and knowing exactly what she's doing, knowing that everyone thinks she's crazy. Her defeated sign off to her SM followers was great acting by NK. I'm glad she and Kate hugged, I also need her to be brought into the secret ASAP.

Sophie trying to be a person willing to torture someone for info felt and looked like a girl playing dress up which is exactly what is was and didn't suit her one bit. So the person she received romantic advice from was Batwoman whom she is apparently not currently still suspecting is Kate.

Luke is growing on me and I'm starting to separate him in my head from an annoying Curtis-lite. 

Kate still spends a lot of time letting Alice villain monologue her plans and just standing there when a quicker Baterang could help solve things.

Doppelganger Beth could be a Mouse trick as he was frustrated that Alice let her "weakness" for wanting to be a family with Kate get in the way of his own supposedly less weak psychotic goals. However I think it might be real and a way to keep either character and Rachel on the show long after the current Alice thing is played out, without resorting to "why are we trusting Malcolm Merlyn again?" issues.

Whilst I don't really want her to be a "real" Beth at least it would only be changing 8 episodes worth of stuff and not up to 8 seasons. If she's a sudden doppelganger dropped to the new Earth Prime it doesn't make Kate having to deal with Alice Beth any easier as she's still her sister. However unless things only reset after the cake wish then everyone else also remembered the old timeline. 

Edited January 20, 2020 by Featherhat

[Lady Calypso]

3 hours ago, Trini said:

I'm was hoping that Batwoman wouldn't be much affected by COIE, so I'm hoping that this new Beth is a Mouse trick.  Otherwise, I don't like this twist. Kate had finally accepted that the Beth that was her sister was gone, and she could stop giving her chance after chance. A Beth doppelganger might be too weird a complication for this show.

On the one hand, this show is still fairly new. If they tried to introduce this twist in season 3, let's say, then it would be weird. I think it's a great time to introduce a twist like this, before there's too much retcon. On the other hand...I absolutely agree with you. I'm not a fan of this twist. It does complicate things a bit too much with there being an Alice AND a Beth. Now, there's no reason for Kate to ever trust Alice...which I guess is an easy cop-out because she would have either had to kill or imprison Alice indefinitely, who she still sees as her sister, or she would have continued to be an idiot and let her go every single time. 

But honestly, I didn't mind seeing the struggle that Kate was facing. Alice is such an intriguing character and even though it seems like she's still also Beth (which leaves Nu-Beth a product of Crisis), this makes it easier for Kate to choose between Alice and Beth...because there's now a separate person. I thought it could have led to a much more complicated story that they would have had to choose, one way or the other. Either keep Alice or turn her back into Beth. I know it likely would have ended up being Alice turning good eventually, but I also feel like Alice's mind is too broken to ever truly be good. 

I don't know exactly where they're heading, but I'm not fully on board with it right now. I need to see where it's heading first, but right now, I'm not a fan. It could POTENTIALLY be a good twist...if they do it right. 

Either way, I guess a plus is more Rachel Skarsten.

 

[UNOSEZ]

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

Either way, I guess a plus is more Rachel Skarsten.

Pretty much sums it up for me... I've enjoyed the show well enough that I'll give them some time to figure out exactly what it is they're doing with Alice/Beth... Also Luke and Kate really work as a tandem well they're growing as a pairing.. Interested in how he grows from here

[Featherhat]

If nu!Beth is a refugee from Earth!Whichever it still leaves Kate angsting over Alice who is also a Beth and the one she grew up with. 

If she's a "birthday present" somehow, the same applies and also brings about the question of how real she is and is Kate kidding herself if she then locks up Alice without a second thought. 

She can't be original!Beth who's been split off from Alice because Mary saw her at Gotham U before Alice crashed Gotham prep and proved that her plan is still 99% "get Kate to join me".

It shouldn't lessen the original dilemma but obviously gives RS more to play with and the writers more to play with in how they resolve things but keep RS around post S1. 

[Jediknight]

3 hours ago, Featherhat said:

Luke is growing on me and I'm starting to separate him in my head from an annoying Curtis-lite.

The big difference between Luke and Curtis, is that Curtis started out as smart tech gay guy that came up with a cure for paralysis with no problem, to his character basically being "I'm gay", they took away his depth.  Luke hasn't gotten there yet, he's a smart tech guy who gives advice to Kate, and is a good friend to her.  So far, his main characteristic hasn't become saying one thing.

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

Either way, I guess a plus is more Rachel Skarsten.

Imagine saying that during Birds of Prey.

[cdnalor]

I'm thinking that maybe the Alice in custody is really a disguised Mouse and the real Alice is posing as Beth to mess with Kate.  Hey, what if Alice was really Mouse all along exhibiting a dual personality and Beth is really just Beth?  Or maybe it's just post-Crisis doppelganger stuff.

[possibilities]

Kate did try to "rip off his mask" when she slammed "Beth" against the desk. Apparently she didn't find anything removable, so... I don't know. I really don't like this new development. I think a "normal" Beth would be kind of boring as a replacement for Alice. I don't think Alice is sustainable forever as-is, but a bland untraumatized Beth who has been traveling in Europe all this time is really not what we need, either. So I guess we have to wait and see what they are planning here, but so far I'm not excited about it.

[nilyank]

I don't think Alice will be too happy that there is a version of a trauma free Beth out there that Kate could bond with. There is going to be a big bull bulleye's on Beth's back.

[UNOSEZ]

Maybe this beth is an "orphan" from the world that Megan rath's brainiac 5 came from.. On Supergirl she said that her world matches up pretty identical to our Earth prime so maybe that's what's going on?...  

[mtlchick]

11 hours ago, Trini said:

Have they previously connected Batwoman to the Nolan films? Because Kate's sidekick mentioned the subway system having been changed to be unhackable since the "Scarecrow incident" (presumably Batman Begins).

My understanding is even though they are DC properties (and even being tied to the same superhero) the Arrowverse has a LOT of limitations of who and what they are say and use for themselves without a lot of people signing off on it.  So getting Ezra Miller for a cameo was a big gift they really had to shoe horn in https://variety.com/2020/tv/features/crisis-on-infinite-earths-ezra-miller-cameo-marc-guggenheim-interview-1203467952/ but they'll take whatever they can get.  

I'm not that well versed on Batwoman, but since they established that Bruce Wayne in Arrowverse doesn't look anything like Christian Bale (but instead the best Batman ever!) I think the best we will get out of the Nolan universe is the Chicago scenery and some small Easter eggs.

[diebartdie]

10 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

Unfortunately to some it is.. Her "Proclaiming " it and shoving it down their throats is seen as a political statement... Why... No idea

WTF dude, she didn't "shove" anything down anyone's throats. She set the record straight regarding herself not being straight. Unfortunately, we LGBT folks still have to do that every day. And even more unfortunately, this world is "damned if you do  and damned if you dont". I love this show because finally i GET SOME SOLID REPRESENTATION.

[Rushmoras]

Thebeginning of the episode on the runaway train: "Some of us have tickets to Jagged Little Pill". Um, in what year they are that they are going to Alanis concert?

Also, as far as side plot B goes... teenager mad at the world so she exacts her frustrations on everyone else so her parents will talk to her... yeah... no. Disregarding this monstrosity, it was a fine episode.

Also, fuck the alternate universe thing. Not only did it mess up a perfectly good Leviathan plot in Supergirl (where's my Mitch Pilleggi?!), returned that fucking god awful version of Lex Luthor, but now in this shiw there are two Beths??? For the love off...

[mtlchick]

36 minutes ago, Rushmoras said:

Thebeginning of the episode on the runaway train: "Some of us have tickets to Jagged Little Pill". Um, in what year they are that they are going to Alanis concert?

That really threw me because Jagged Little Pill opened on Broadway last month so it's implying that Gotham really is New York or implying you can get easily get there by train. 

[Starry]

I cracked up at the "not mixing politics with superheroes" bit. That was shade to the haters that cry politics every time LGBT people and POC get some proper representation in the superhero genre.

The episode was okay. The lesbian teenager orchestrating a dangerous plan because her homophobic parents didn't love her was too much. The kid was very smart and empathetic though.

I loved the final scene with Kate and Luke. He baked her a cupcake and she missed him in her ear when out in the field. They have a very sweet friendship.

Mary and Sophie had a couple good scenes too. I don't know how I feel about Sophie beating up suspects but it got called out in the narrative and she has a lot of repressed anger/feelings. I could be wrong but I believe the doctor is involved in something shady and is just gaslighting Mary.

I think Beth being a doppelgänger is the simplest explanation but it could lead to unnecessary complications for this show. I am not exactly crazy about multiple versions of the same character roaming the earth at the same time.

[Trini]

7 minutes ago, Starry said:

I think Beth being a doppelgänger is the simplest explanation but it could lead to unnecessary complications for this show. I am not exactly crazy about multiple versions of the same character roaming the earth at the same time.

With the other DC shows, I could probably roll with it (they've already done similar plots), but I don't think it's going to work well here. Mainly because of the already complicated and central relationship of Kate and Alice/Beth, but also because it's the most grounded of the current shows.

I really hope she's not a doppelganger from another earth.

Edited January 20, 2020 by Trini

[UNOSEZ]

53 minutes ago, diebartdie said:

WTF dude, she didn't "shove" anything down anyone's throats. She set the record straight regarding herself not being straight. Unfortunately, we LGBT folks still have to do that every day. And even more unfortunately, this world is "damned if you do  and damned if you dont". I love this show because finally i GET SOME SOLID REPRESENTATION.

Yeah.. I agree.. Not sure if my post that you responded to made it seem like I wasn't... My point was that to some ppl the mere mention of minorities or issues that put them front and center are seen as an " agenda" or inserting politics into places they aren't meant to be... And a phrase  that is often used is "shoving it down my throat".. That's all

[Trini]

19 hours ago, bettername2come said:

I really enjoyed this one. First because I was just amused by a villain with a Go Fund Me. ...

 

19 hours ago, quarks said:

...

3) This week's bad guy had a Go Fund Me. I admit it, I laughed. ...

Ha! My thought was that this villain is smart -- why extort 5 mil from one person, when you could get $5 from one million people?

[Primal Slayer]

If Beth is a doppelganger then...does she not know that she is one? Is she just pretending? 

[diebartdie]

I bet Mouse is the one in custody (although....you can change the face I guess but how could his body be mistaken for Alice's? )

[Lantern7]

Good return episode. Dunno what was more ticklish . . . a unformed officer named "Slam," or a hacker basically set up a GoFundMe by threatening to spill secrets. Actually, those are both topped by Alice and Mouse chilling out at Catherine's grave, holding a small tea party. Only her, right? Watching her angrily chomp on a biscuit after Mouse told her off was icing on the cake.

The issue of sexual identity felt like it was applied too much, but it was still well-done. More awkward: Kate "outting" Batwoman via Kara. That's more about me preferring the "Bat Family should be low-profile" status quo. Look at that magazine cover . . . just awkward as all hell. Kara getting the "scoop"? Doesn't bug me as much. I'm hoping we get a "World's Finest" at least once per season with those two.

Beth . . . Crisis "orphan" or something else? I'm thinking the latter . . . if Beth had been rescued years ago, then who is Alice? A third party who decided to screw with the Kanes by claiming to be Beth? Maybe we should gather to talk about this. No tea, though . . . strictly water and carbonated beverages.

[tennisgurl]

Well I guess thats what you get when you make balloon animals out of time and space, you get doppelgangers everywhere! I wondered if we would see any changes to Gotham Post-Crisis, and it turns out, a Beth from presumably another universe showed up! And is about to be very confused! 

Nice return for the show, if a bit on the nose in the way that this franchise usually is when they deal with social issues. Like, it sure is convenient that while Kate is struggling with how her identity intersects with her life as Batwoman, she meets a troubled LGBTQ teen struggling withe the exact same issue! That being said, it was also clearly sincere and a good message, and I liked Parker, and felt quite sad for her. Hope that maybe she can come by as some kind of bat intern at some point! And even if its not subtle, sometimes when dealing with important issues, you sometimes want to yell loud enough they hear you in the cheap seats you know?

Hehe, the GoFund Me Page, I love it.

So what Scarecrow incident was this? Nolan movie reference, of does Scarecrow like to mess with subways no matter the universe? 

Kara got to do a coming out article on her new bestie Kate! She must have been so happy! Actually, you know who Kate should really introduce Mary to? Barry, considering his dad was also unjustly imprisoned for his moms murder which was committed by a super villain with some convoluted revenge plan! 

Speaking of, poor Mary is struggling so much, I feel so terribly for her. She went through something so horrible, and she already felt like her life was falling apart even before that, and now she is just spiraling. At least Kate finally gave her a hug!

Alice and Mouse having tea parties over Catherine's grave is the height of pettiness. Alice really has crossed so many likes, its really freaking hard to see how she could ever come back. And now with this sliding doors "What if Beth was never kidnapped" version of Beth, will Kate have her now? I dont know if this Beth will stick around (maybe she ends up getting sucked into Alice and that will be her ticket to redemption? Maybe Alice kills her? Maybe she goes back to her home universe?) long, but her being around now will be an interesting development. 

Luke and Kate continue to grow into a really nice dynamic. 

Edited January 21, 2020 by tennisgurl

[Jenniferbug]

I thought Mouse took Luke's place while they were out of communication, and was expecting that reveal at the end. 

Not sure how to feel about Beth. On one hand, I like that Kate gets the sister she should have always had. But then I'm not sure how that resolves the Alice plot arc for Kate or where Mary fits into her life if Beth exists (yes I know people can have multiple close sibling relationships but on this show, the characters would be serving the same purpose). They could still do some interesting things with it, but I think it's too early to say. 

[BaggythePanther]

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Actually, you know who Kate should really introduce Mary to? Barry, considering his dad was also unjustly imprisoned for his moms murder which was committed by a super villain with some convoluted revenge plan! 

This is brilliant and I’m going to be so disappointed when it doesn’t happen.

[Rushmoras]

9 hours ago, mtlchick said:

That really threw me because Jagged Little Pill opened on Broadway last month so it's implying that Gotham really is New York or implying you can get easily get there by train. 

So, it is not related to Alanis Morrisette album? OK, my bad, then 😀

[mtlchick]

3 hours ago, Rushmoras said:

So, it is not related to Alanis Morrisette album? OK, my bad, then 😀

It actually is! So your initial comment wasn’t too far off as that’s how people were tweeting when the cast performed on New Year’s Eve. 😉 

https://jaggedlittlepill.com/

 

[dmeets]

DId the reference to Captain America mean that the MCU is a thing in the Berlantiverse as well, or is there really a Captain America and Crisis actually merged Marvel and DC? (joking... mostly)

I'm intrigued by "good" Beth, but I'm convinced now that she's a Mouse/Alice trick. I for one would be bummed if that's the case, because IMO Alice isn't sustainable after killing her stepmother, even though all the other shows have played their villains out (Eobard, Malcolm, Damien)

[Trini]

58 minutes ago, dmeets said:

DId the reference to Captain America mean that the MCU is a thing in the Berlantiverse as well, or is there really a Captain America and Crisis actually merged Marvel and DC? (joking... mostly)

It's more like Marvel characters are fictional comic book characters in the DC-verse. Other shows have referenced them as well.

[Cranberry]

Yeah, earlier in the episode, Vesper Fairchild said the cop had Chris Evans vibes, and then everyone started calling him Captain America... so we can surmise from that that Chris Evans plays Captain America in movies in this universe, too. I wonder if the MCU would be as popular in a society that actually dealt with the world potentially ending every couple years... it wouldn't be escapism at that point!

[Trini]

 

[Rahul]

This was an interesting episode, but not without its problems. I found the antagonist's ploy of extorting the entire city to be highly amusing, but then it devolved into an teen angst-ridden tale that paralleled Kate's situation of the week to groan worthy proportions. It's never good when you can see the writing and plot developments from a mile away. 

I really did not like that Batwoman's identity was revealed--and to all of Gotham at that--so early on the series. Now she will likely do what she did already with Alfred's daughter and employ others to periodically don her suit--a trope that got very tired very quickly on Arrow. Moreover, why would she ever pose for the cover of a Catco magazine like that when you can clearly make out her facial features? It defies all logic.

Equally frustrating was Mouse during the impromptu tea party at Katherine's grave. He was spouting all kinds of wisdom about the way Kate perceived Alice after she crossed the line and was nearing therapist levels of insight, when he had previously been shown to be completely unhinged and somewhat stunted in intellect.

I did not have the patience or desire to sit through all five parts of the Crisis on Infinite Earths crossover (I fast forwarded through most of that Batwoman episode), but I'm interested to see how the writers handle this aftershock of an ostensibly normal and untraumatized Beth from another earth; this could be a great development if handled with finesse and careful consideration.