S03.E08: A Jewish Girl Walks Into the Apollo...

[QQQQ]

On 12/6/2019 at 6:57 PM, NeenerNeener said:

I'm not surprised Shy kicked her off the tour; her set made him sound like Liberace. She pretty much outed him without making an explicit announcement.

And yet, millions of women still fantasized about Liberace.

Ladies Loving Liberace

[shapeshifter]

12 hours ago, Eri said:

I do however, see the other side of the coin on how that would be potentially damaging to Shy's reputation even if it wasn't spoken outright - it bordered on the line.  The ending left me a little confused because I couldn't tell whether Shy decided to void Midge's contract because he saw her act as a betrayal OR whether it was actually Reggie doing the firing because:  a) he wanted to protect Shy and his reputation as damage control or b) he was jealous that Shy confided so much in Midge and he was willing to make her collateral damage and Shy went along with it to appease Reggie. It was implied that Shy and Reggie were more than just companions after the stool act and after Shy's breakdown, I could see him doing whatever Reggie would want to make up for it.

 Yes, with Reggie delivering Shy’s “decision” to fire Midge, we can’t be sure whose idea it was except that clearly Reggie supported it. 
I can see how ridiculing Shy could become a thing and could destroy his career. 
If the character of Shy had been more fully developed, I could see Midge patching things up with him next season, but Reggie was the more 3-dimensional of the 2. IDK. I suppose they could go there. 

[ShadowFacts]

4 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

 Yes, with Reggie delivering Shy’s “decision” to fire Midge, we can’t be sure whose idea it was except that clearly Reggie supported it. 
I can see how ridiculing Shy could become a thing and could destroy his career. 
If the character of Shy had been more fully developed, I could see Midge patching things up with him next season, but Reggie was the more 3-dimensional of the 2. IDK. I suppose they could go there. 

She could have been fired on the spot, the evening it all happened. More dramatic I suppose to have her ready to fly, and the plane taking off without her. It would have been important to see Shy and Midge face-to-face, so I won't be surprised if we do see him again, for some up close and personal fallout for Midge.

[Carolina Girl]

On 12/10/2019 at 12:37 PM, Old Man Neil said:

Totally agree. I think that's what the show does best, reintroduce nearly forgotten performers to a new audience. 

And Carol was modeled on the prolific session musician Carol Kaye. 

https://www.carolkaye.com/

When I heard one of the other band members call her "Carol" I thought - Carol Kaye! Carole Kaye!  She was her twin, right down to the ponytail and the glasses!

[Carolina Girl]

I thought Susie had already SIGNED the contract - wasn't it a six-month tour - three in the U.S. and three in Europe?  I mean, they were already filling her room with teddy bears, which was her weird contract "ask".  Were there TWO contracts - one for the U.S. and one for Europe?  I don't recall this being explained.    Certainly we know she was getting paid (Vegas) so someone must have signed SOMETHING.  

The fact that Susie hadn't signed the contract and had gambled away all her client's money says that she may be out of her depth has a manager in many ways.

[lonestar]

Quote

I thought Susie had already SIGNED the contract - wasn't it a six-month tour - three in the U.S. and three in Europe?  I mean, they were already filling her room with teddy bears, which was her weird contract "ask".  Were there TWO contracts - one for the U.S. and one for Europe?  

I think after Shy took 2 months off, they had to redo the contract as the tour dates and tv specials would need to be updated and corrected.

[Carolina Girl]

3 hours ago, lonestar said:

I think after Shy took 2 months off, they had to redo the contract as the tour dates and tv specials would need to be updated and corrected.

Ah, thank you.  I do remember now that he was exhausted.  I completely forgot them running from radio spot to radio spot because they needed to make some money.  Although you would think that having opened for Shy Baldwin on his tour, Susie would have been able to get her a mini-tour like she did in Season Two - hell, I'd have called that dude in Vegas and asked if he wanted to book her into the "small room" for a gig - he really liked her show.    

[pivot]

This season was hard to get through. Way, way too much Joel. The writers are clearly working to get them back together which is unfortunate. 

That and making Midge's parents as wacky as her really ruined the show IMO. The show doesn't work when everyone with weird and wacky. It's why I hated The Gilmore Girls.

[qtpye]

13 hours ago, Carolina Girl said:

Ah, thank you.  I do remember now that he was exhausted.  I completely forgot them running from radio spot to radio spot because they needed to make some money.  Although you would think that having opened for Shy Baldwin on his tour, Susie would have been able to get her a mini-tour like she did in Season Two - hell, I'd have called that dude in Vegas and asked if he wanted to book her into the "small room" for a gig - he really liked her show.    

I agree. The sad little radio spots that literally sometimes paid nothing showed that Suzie really does not know anything about what she should be doing. Midge has now made a little name for herself touring with Shy. She could easily be paid to headline in local clubs and other smaller venues.

[Carolina Girl]

18 hours ago, pivot said:

This season was hard to get through. Way, way too much Joel. The writers are clearly working to get them back together which is unfortunate. 

That and making Midge's parents as wacky as her really ruined the show IMO. The show doesn't work when everyone with weird and wacky. It's why I hated The Gilmore Girls.

Thank you - I thought it was just me that was incredibly disappointed.  It started out really well, especially where she learned in Vegas about making her humor more situational and less New York centered.  

The whole Rose giving up her trust fund and then griping like hell because they were forced to list with Joel's parents was annoying.  Not that I think she shouldn't have been given a seat on the Board but still, if trust payments are essential to your standard of living, maybe that wasn't the hill to die on.  

Also, I don't understand Sophie's dissatisfaction with her manager - he seemed to go to bat and stick up for her all the time.  Too much of the season spent on that silly, stupid play that to me did nothing to move the plot along except to highlight that in the end, Susie is NOT ready for multiple clients.  And then to give her a gambling problem.  Geez.  

And I could care less about Joel, Mae, Archie, Imogene and that whole club thing of his.  The best scenes at the club were those involving Mrs. Moskowitz.  

And I'm sorry - I still have a problem with the final scene.  I cannot think there was any way that Reggie would not have called Susie in advance and let her know before they were to leave that she was being dropped from the tour and meet with the two of them to discuss why.  After all, from what I could tell, they were holding the plane for Midge to arrive.  Why would they do that?  I'm probably over analyzing, for sure.  After all, it's a COMEDY!

[shapeshifter]

5 hours ago, Carolina Girl said:

And I'm sorry - I still have a problem with the final scene.  I cannot think there was any way that Reggie would not have called Susie in advance and let her know before they were to leave that she was being dropped from the tour and meet with the two of them to discuss why.  After all, from what I could tell, they were holding the plane for Midge to arrive.  Why would they do that?  I'm probably over analyzing, for sure.  After all, it's a COMEDY!

The simple answer to this would be that Reggie and Shy had just agreed moments before upon this course of action --which, now that you mention it, makes it more palatable to me, like it was hard for them to make that decision. 
Does that work?

[snarktini]

On 12/12/2019 at 8:58 PM, shapeshifter said:

Midge may not have outed Shy to that audience, but Shy made clear to her that his sexual proclivities were not for public discussion, and she had told Shy she would honor that. OTOH, I don't think she thought she was outing him in that environment, especially since Reggie had prepped her the way he did (while assuming she didn't know Shy's "secret"):

This is my take. I believe she believed she had full permission from Reggie to say what she did -- she went too far (as she does) but she was unintentionally set up for that. However, she didn't honor her agreement to Shy. That's what matters, and it was not ok.

Midge can be terribly thoughtless. No disagreement there! But I disagree she says horrible things thinking she can get away with them because she's cute/charming/bulletproof. It feels more like recklessness and self-sabotage. She doesn't think at all when she riffs like that. Is there a difference between thoughtlessness and assholery? Maybe not, in effect. She creates a lot of negative impact, which is what matters and can't be waved away, but I don't think she does any of it intentionally. She acts, then thinks.

I am guessing we won't see Susie arrested for burning down the house, if only because that's just too serious for this show. Having Susie gamble Midge's earnings is pretty shocking and I hope we'll see more fallout. Will Susie remain her manager? (After doing a pretty shitty job, as qtpye noted). Probably yes, but there should be a reckoning. And will Midge get the lost money back? Maybe not, because plot.

Color me entirely unsurprised that taking on Sophie blew up. That wasted a lot of screen time for...nothing interesting. Except we got to see Cary Elwes.

[Carolina Girl]

13 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

The simple answer to this would be that Reggie and Shy had just agreed moments before upon this course of action --which, now that you mention it, makes it more palatable to me, like it was hard for them to make that decision. 
Does that work?

Yes, that would be an excellent explanation.  Like I said, probably over-analyzing.  I suppose because I was just so disappointed to see her big break end this way.  The one-step-forward-two-steps-back is getting old.  Although I imagine that's how it really is in Show Biz.  As Heidi used to say on Project Runway "one day you're 'in' and the next, you're 'out.'"

[lonestar]

It's possible Reggie made the decision without telling Shy.  We shall see.

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, Carolina Girl said:

Yes, that would be an excellent explanation.  Like I said, probably over-analyzing.  I suppose because I was just so disappointed to see her big break end this way.  The one-step-forward-two-steps-back is getting old.  Although I imagine that's how it really is in Show Biz.  As Heidi used to say on Project Runway "one day you're 'in' and the next, you're 'out.'"

And now I can't get that Sinatra song, "That's Life," out of my head (written by Dean Kay and Kelly Gordon, 1964). It would totally work for the show, IMO.

Quote

[Verse 1]
That's life (That's life), that's what all the people say
You're riding high in April, shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune
When I'm back on top, back on top in June
I said, that's life (That's life), and as funny as it may seem
Some people get their kicks, stompin' on a dream
But I don't let it, let it get me down
'Cause this fine old world it keeps spinning around

[Chorus]
I've been a puppet, a pauper, a pirate, a poet, a pawn and a king
I've been up and down and over and out, and I know one thing
Each time I find myself flat on my face
I pick myself up and get back in the race
. . . 

(genius.com/Frank-sinatra-thats-life-lyrics)

[DianeDobbler]

On 12/9/2019 at 3:38 PM, preeya said:

Me too. I really don't like Jane Lynch; never have.

I thought I did, until this character was introduced in Season 1. I thought it was a horrible performance. Lynch is very talented, and extremely technically competent. Most actors, if miscast somehow, are able to give a decent technical performance even if the character doesn't exactly come alive. I thought Sophie was absolutely flat to an almost amateurish extent. I thought she was a bit better in S2 and this S3, but not to the point of constantly bringing her back.

By comparison, I've always liked Tony Shalhoub and was kind of pissed he was in Mrs. Maisel, because you don't cast Tony Shalhoub unless you're going to give him lots of material and I didn't want Midge's parents to be sucking up tons of airtime and needing to be served by the writers. That said, he can be hilarious and any time he gets anything that remotely works he does a great job. The character he's playing now isn't even close to the Abe he played in S1 but he makes it work. Or, at least, nothing about the oxygen sucking of Midge's parents and in-laws is down to how Tony Shalhoub plays Abe. While I think non-star casting for Sophie would have been a lot better. This is just off and not funny and I put it down to Lynch.

 

ETA about the cost to Midge's career if she slept with Lenny Bruce - if people are watching and gossiping, then hanging out with Bruce at a sultry Cuban nightclub in Miami and slow dancing with him, sitting in bars with him, going to his work with him (the second time she's done it) are going to hurt her career a whole lot more (if the association with a famous comic will hurt her own comic career and I don't think it will) then having sex with him in his tiny hotel room at 5am when nobody is around. What would they do if it happened -  issue an announcement?  It's the friendship that causes the gossip. But Bruce seems to be struggling at the moment and can barely get himself booked, let alone set fire to Midge's career, so the show should be consistent on that point.

And finally, Midge is never going to be alone unless she wants to be. Many comics are introverts, and the self-exposure involved in what they do has a cost, and many are prone to depression and all the rest. Midge is a psychological battle ship, she's an extrovert, she makes a best friend everywhere she goes, and that's true if she's a comic on the road, a comic at home, or not a comic. She'll never be alone in a bar sucking down somebody else's drink wondering if her entire life is going out with the tide., At the very least she'll have an enterprising somebody or other sitting right next to her as a sounding board and advice-giver.

Edited December 19, 2019 by DianeDobbler

[SnarkAttack]

When Susie cried after losing the money, it felt really genuine to me.  Good job.

[Clanstarling]

On 12/6/2019 at 4:57 PM, NeenerNeener said:

I'm not surprised Shy kicked her off the tour; her set made him sound like Liberace.

Who, in 1960, was considered a colorful - heterosexual - entertainer by his audience.

On 12/9/2019 at 9:54 AM, leighdear said:

Being outed back then could actually get somebody killed.

Still can.

On 12/10/2019 at 12:12 PM, xaxat said:

Wanda Sykes as Moms Mabley was brilliant casting.

I'm going to miss Reggie/Sterling K. Brown. (And Carol, the bassist.)

It took me a bit to recognize her, she captured Moms so well. And I loved the Reggie character as well.

On 12/12/2019 at 10:50 AM, Neurochick said:

Yes, she is a selfish, self centered jerk.  

I realized that in episode 1, when she didn't know the words to White Christmas, it wasn't because she was Jewish, or from NYC, or anything like that, it's because that's how Midge is.

I'm fully on board with her being the selfish, self centered jerk. I'm not quite sure I understand why not knowing the words to White Christmas indicates her jerkitude.

On 12/12/2019 at 7:03 PM, Nordly Beaumont said:

Since it's Shy's life and Shy's secret, his feelings are the only ones that matter in this instance.

Amen. Not to mention, he's the boss.

On 12/14/2019 at 1:28 PM, Razzberry said:

Wanda Sykes was indeed great.

I'm not saying what Midge did was right, but Reggie told her to drop her normal routine, to make it about Shy and the audience would love it.  She had to improvise at the last minute, they did love it, and she went with it.  I even saw some nodding in the audience, so Shy's career is undamaged. 

I don't think the issue was his career, but breaking his trust. She isn't stupid, she knew the enormity of his secret, and the amazing amount of trust he'd put in her.

On 12/18/2019 at 11:09 AM, snarktini said:

But I disagree she says horrible things thinking she can get away with them because she's cute/charming/bulletproof. It feels more like recklessness and self-sabotage. She doesn't think at all when she riffs like that. Is there a difference between thoughtlessness and assholery? Maybe not, in effect. She creates a lot of negative impact, which is what matters and can't be waved away, but I don't think she does any of it intentionally. She acts, then thinks.

That sounds about right.

I had issues with the season, but I think there were really good moments too. I particularly loved Benjamin confronting Midge. It was a great scene, especially since he'd been a pretty cool and calm guy for the most part.

The show has a lot of characters who are pretty irritating in large doses (as did Gilmore Girls, in my opinion), but they can be very entertaining in smaller doses. None of them are anyone I'd want to spend any real time with.

The single person on the show I've never found irritating, but I'm not sure I'd want to hang with, is Susie.

Anyway, I'm kind of glad everything's all blown up again. I'm looking forward to seeing where everyone will land.

If you get a chance, watch the documentary on "The Wrecking Crew" - about the amazing group of studio musicians (including Carol Kaye) who played on an amazing number of hits. I watched it on Netflix, but I don't know if it's still there.

Edited December 20, 2019 by Clanstarling

[Raja]

11 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

 

If you get a chance, watch the documentary on "The Wrecking Crew" - about the amazing group of studio musicians (including Carol Kaye) who played on an amazing number of hits. I watched it on Netflix, but I don't know if it's still there.

Hulu has it now but you can rent it from Amazon and  other services.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

One thing the season finale did a great job with was reminding me how gorgeous the costumes are.

I cracked up when Midge's friends at the diner didn't even try to hide that they were listening to every word of her conversation with Benjamin. I'm glad he finally got to have that last conversation with her so he could get some closure.

As soon as Reggie told a panicking Midge to talk about Shy, I knew no good would come of it. I was surprised that a furious Shy didn't fire her immediately when she walked off stage.

[Clanstarling]

37 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

As soon as Reggie told a panicking Midge to talk about Shy, I knew no good would come of it. I was surprised that a furious Shy didn't fire her immediately when she walked off stage.

I had the same reaction. I expected her to say something completely crass and obvious, as she did at the wedding, since her brain doesn't engage while her mouth's running. When she was done I thought - ok, maybe she did okay for that era's blindness to gay references (Liberace, etc.).

I'm not sure Shy had time to fire her, given he went right into his song - or the desire to at that moment. He had his performance to focus on. I imagine he'd stew over it for a bit, and I could see how he could wait until the last minute to decide he didn't want her on the tour. Or maybe it was a back and forth with Reggie that delayed the ultimate decision. Of course, Reggie kept the fact he'd told her to talk about Shy to himself. Which is understandable as more than just self-protection- but also protecting Shy. He cares for Shy deeply (regardless if it is romantic or friendship), and he would know that Shy finding out about a second betrayal (in his eyes) would devastate him, and no one wants to destroy someone they care about. Not completely honest, and not particularly honorable, but understandable.

Edited December 20, 2019 by Clanstarling

[orza]

I doubt Shy would be angry with Reggie. The two of them go way back and Reggie didn't know that Midge knew Shy was gay. Midge is an adult who chose to break her promise and betray Shy's trust. That is not on Reggie.

Shy is a seasoned performer in show business, the operative word there being business. Both Shy and Reggie knew that Shy needed a good opening act for his tour and it would be a bad business decision to fire Midge before lining up a replacement for her. Ensuring a successful and profitable tour is more important in the long term than than reacting emotionally in the heat of the moment without thinking through the consequences. That's something teenagers might do but not businessmen who are serious about their careers.

It is more likely that Reggie used the time while Shy was taking a break to audition performers and negotiate a contract for an opening act to replace Midge and waited until he had a signed contract and the performer on the plane before cutting Midge loose. If the new act couldn't join the tour for, say, another two weeks Reggie probably would have let Midge board the plane and then fired her when her replacement showed up to join the tour. That makes business sense.

[Neurochick]

17 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I'm fully on board with her being the selfish, self centered jerk. I'm not quite sure I understand why not knowing the words to White Christmas indicates her jerkitude.

I sensed the reason Midge didn't know the lyrics was because it wasn't relevant to HER.  Any time something isn't about HER 24/7, she doesn't seem to give a shit.  

What I find interesting is that neither Midge nor Sophie seemed to give a flying fig that Susie was living in poverty.  

[shapeshifter]

3 hours ago, Neurochick said:

What I find interesting is that neither Midge nor Sophie seemed to give a flying fig that Susie was living in poverty.  

This does not surprise me.

[Clanstarling]

5 hours ago, Neurochick said:

I sensed the reason Midge didn't know the lyrics was because it wasn't relevant to HER.  Any time something isn't about HER 24/7, she doesn't seem to give a shit.  

What I find interesting is that neither Midge nor Sophie seemed to give a flying fig that Susie was living in poverty.  

Fair enough. It's not a connection I make in that particular instance , mileage varies. But we agree more than not -  not giving a fig about Susie living in poverty definitely is something I dislike about Midge. 

We're supposed to think Sophie's awful, but I'm never quite sure whether we're not supposed to think Midge is.

On an irrelevant, happenstance, note. Today we went to see a specialist for my husband - and he was like a Palladino character. Irritating a little at first. Talked a mile a minute, and had a hyperactive Luke Kirby/Lenny Bruce vibe in both looks and sound. But after getting used to it, we decided we liked him.

[snarktini]

14 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

We're supposed to think Sophie's awful, but I'm never quite sure whether we're not supposed to think Midge is.

I absolutely believe we're NOT supposed to think Midge is awful. Flawed, yep, but not awful. That's in line with other polarizing Palladino protagonists like Lorelai Gilmore. Midge is extraordinarily privileged yet still painted as an underdog of sorts. Beloved, quirky, witty, and charming on one hand yet self-centered, self-sabotaging, and deeply flawed on the other.

Quirky is what they're going for, then the writers go too far and lead characters end up coming across as totally obnoxious at times. But believe ASP's intent is for us to find them human and lovably flawed, not irredeemable jerks.

[DianeDobbler]

On 12/17/2019 at 6:55 PM, Carolina Girl said:

This season was hard to get through. Way, way too much Joel. The writers are clearly working to get them back together which is unfortunate. 

What really pisses me off is the show runners think they can force the issue. They can WRITE him into fan supporting him.  Fans don't hate him because he cheated on Midge and all the other schmucky things he did.  Fans will always have "reasons" that they'd throw away if the acting was compelling, the actor sexually or emotionally appealing, and there was chemistry and charisma in the mix. Michael Zagen is a perfectly competent actor who does very well at one thing - a sort of unassuming decency. "Let them sleep late, pop." Romance? He sucks. Anger? He sucks. Leading man schtick? Sucks. Charm and all those endless flashbacks to when Joel and Midge met in college? MEH!

I never saw Gilmore Girls except small bits and pieces but I read comparisons between Christopher and Joel. Was the Christopher actor just not cut out to sell it?

I can't think it's the jerkitude that turned fans off. TV is full of horrible jerks and fans sometimes don't even perceive it or they hand wave it because the actor pulls it off with the character or suggests motivation and layers. With the right actor the show runners wouldn't have to do any rehab on Joel. We could see it in the performance. He feels eclipsed by his stunner of a wife but truly loves her and is coming to recognize his own attributes and strengths. That whole cheating episode was beneath him!

I just don't know how this thing was cast and the "network" said, "Yes, Michael Zegan is our heroine's true love and the one the Rachel Brosnahan character will continually fuck in every season and be her true love eternally."  HBO hemmed and hawed over Jon freaking Hamm! Maybe Amazon is too new to the series business or maybe to get the show they had to give the show runners full creative control.

[DianeDobbler]

20 hours ago, snarktini said:

I absolutely believe we're NOT supposed to think Midge is awful. Flawed, yep, but not awful. That's in line with other polarizing Palladino protagonists like Lorelai Gilmore. Midge is extraordinarily privileged yet still painted as an underdog of sorts.

Much as I love everything about Luke Kirby's Lenny Bruce, or anything that gives him the chance to open up a bit as Lenny, I thought the bar scene where Midge was acting like her experiences were on par with his were tone deaf. Midge has plenty of challenges has a comic, but she is also tremendously privileged. She is in no way tormented. She does not turn her frustrations inward, eaten alive by her battles to express herself as her passions and drive demand. She externalizes her anger. She does not internalize.  Anybody who can get as excited as she did over being allowed back at B. Altman's freaking make-up counter can't in any way count themselves in the same universe of experience as Lenny Bruce.

[SoWindsor]

8 hours ago, DianeDobbler said:

HBO hemmed and hawed over Jon freaking Hamm

What do you mean?

and speaking of John hamm, I’d love a don Draper cameo!

Helping midge advertise her act!

[Pallas]

Back to the episode, please. Thoughts about the season/series make their home in the Season 3 Discussion thread.

[TV Diva Queen]

Ok - I'm an idiot.  Was flipping channels this weekend, came across maybe a Time/Life commerical for Christmas songs and they showed an old Johnny Mathis clip.  I was like "OMG, that's Shy".  If that is the case, that was a huge break for Midge.  I might have to go back and watch with new eyes.   

[Clanstarling]

50 minutes ago, TV Diva Queen said:

Ok - I'm an idiot.  Was flipping channels this weekend, came across maybe a Time/Life commerical for Christmas songs and they showed an old Johnny Mathis clip.  I was like "OMG, that's Shy".  If that is the case, that was a huge break for Midge.  I might have to go back and watch with new eyes.   

I always thought Shy (the performer and his music) was based on Mathis. I knew nothing about his personal life, though according to Wikipedia, seems like the case is stronger that Shy was based on him than I originally thought. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Mathis#Personal_life

[lavenderblue]

Well, that was a bit wild. My mother attended Katharine Gibbs in the late '60s and later worked at the Village Voice.

Watching audience reactions during Midge's act, I thought I noticed a few people exchanging glances or making certain faces -- I may have been projecting and would have to rewatch, but my initial take was that lots laughed, but some were looking harder at her implications about Shy. I did think she deserved the consequences for her choice there -- she has repeatedly gone too far personally in her comedy, and at some point she was going to upset someone who could hurt her career more than Sophie Lennon did. That's now happened and if she doesn't take the right lesson, it will happen again.

That said, this recurring theme of hers does make me think plenty of the authorial insert idea about ASP, given the reputation ASP had in the Gilmore Girls days for making comments that pissed off whole swaths of fandom. And then she lost control of the show for its final season after some network negotiations gone sour so...expect more one-step-forwards-two-step-backs of a particular nature for Midge's career, is all.

 

Edited December 25, 2019 by lavenderblue

[Prower]

On 12/7/2019 at 1:57 AM, NeenerNeener said:

I'm not surprised Shy kicked her off the tour; her set made him sound like Liberace. She pretty much outed him without making an explicit announcement.

Except she didn't. We look at it from a modern perspective and think that, but you have to see it in the conetext of the times. You mentioned Liberace. He wasn't gay he was eccentric. Same with Elton John, not gay, just eccentric, Freddy Mercury, not gay (or bi), just eccentric.

So I can see why those jokes would have hit a bit too close to home for Shy, but I can also see why Midge wouldn't have thought anything by it.

The audience also didn't seem to react shocked or disgusted or anything. They laughed. They all knew Shy was eccentric. It doesn't seem Midge told them anything new.

[Prower]

On 12/11/2019 at 9:49 PM, tennisgurl said:

Even though this isnt 2019 where people are more culturally familiar with LGBTQ stereotypes and signifies, the "friend of Dorothy" ruby slippers stuff was a well known *wink wink* for being gay (Suzie knew right away) by then

It was for people in the know, but not for your average Joe. There was no internet back then. Even as late as the 1980s the Navi invested a ton of money, to find the elusive "Dorothy", who was a known associate of many gay men, to get her to spill the beans on her friends. I wish I was kidding: http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2017/01/u-s-navy-hilarious-multi-million-dollar-fruitless-search-wizard-ozs-dorothy-friends/

[MYOS]

I don't think Midge "outed" Shy.

She could have screamed "Shy is a pinko commie" and everyone would have just laughed because.... see... he's SO NOT [in the way people back then projected what that meant].

In fact firing her would be the clue to her and his audience that she hit too close to home, because "ladykiller playboy who's a drama queen" was a well-known trope people didn't associate with homosexuality (which they usually associated with perverts and communists... perhaps with intellectuals and most definitely with white men only... I wish I were kidding), whereas Shy was a babe-magnet with an outsize personality, ie., totally normal star performer. It only hurts Shy because it's personal to him, he's not just effeminate and a drama queen as part of his babe magnet singer persona, but gay.

"Friend of Dorothy" would be totally unknown outside the gay community and, probably, the performing world. So she only outed Shy to his gay fans, which would only endear him to them....  The Apollo crowd wouldn't have understood exactly what she meant by it.

Firing her for that reason would be WORSE for him; I'm pretty sure one reason "Midge was fired" is because 1° no production budget to go to Stockholm, Paris, Barcelona etc, and 2° DRAMA!!!!, but in reality it'd be a super bad PR move.

On a personal level, Midge betrayed Shy. But no one knows but the two of them (and, probably, Reggie).

I'd have preferred the European tour to go on off screenand not work for Midge, so that she returns and she has no contract, is penniless save for all the money that's gone to her apartment, and has to start figuring how to live frugally without parents help while continuing her career, plus feeling deflated after being buyed by the life of a successful artist.

It was interesting that Midge, in a famous theater and outside of her usual crowd, froze. It could have been a "growing pain" moment, a throwback to the first Vegas episode.

Edited December 27, 2019 by MYOS

[Clanstarling]

I, personally, liked that Midge got fired. She's had few, if any, consequences for any of her actions during the entire run of the series. This will help her recognize there are some boundaries for what she can use as fodder for her comedy. It should be a growth experience by making her actually apply some discipline and thought to not only what is funny, but what kind of fallout she's willing to accept and what kind of pain she's willing to inflict. Growth experiences are rarely comfortable.

[Kromm]

On 12/8/2019 at 7:02 PM, shapeshifter said:

Nice, concise post^, @CinAZ.

Maybe you can do something similar with my rambling post about the Shy ending above? 

I really hope we get at least cameo or two next season with Shy and Mr Jewish Doctor Ben, but my old heart is set on Luke Kirby's Lenny Bruce. 😛

Except they'd have to change actual history for that NOT to end badly (even if they just inserted Midge in place of a different girlfriend in his real life). Lenny Bruce's life does NOT have a happy ending. And I'm not just talking about his death.  His final years in total was a super dark progression of him not only getting in bigger and bigger legal trouble, but also being unable to work anywhere. It's pretty much the story of everyone abandoning him.  And arguably rightfully, since he was a drugged up incoherent mess. Even a story with Midge peripherally connected to him is going to get dark. But if she was involved with him?  It would take over the whole show. 

Edited December 27, 2019 by Kromm

[Chiordella]

No idea why Abe and Rose needed to lose their apartment, and hard to believe in that situation the only option would be to move in with two people they barely tolerate.  Their apartment is like the elegant setting for a beautiful jewel, it's part of what makes them who they are.

I also heard a brief mention of canceling their reservation at Steiner's.  I certainly hope that doesnt happen.  Catskills were my favorite episodes.

[Cara]

I think it’s hard with our 21st century mindset to understand how the majority of people saw homosexuality in the 50’s and early 60’s. They equated being gay with perversion and mental illness. 

This educational video was made by a CA police department and school system. I think its message that homosexuals and pedophiles are one and the same was probably a common view back then. It’s disturbing to our 21st century mentality but I thought it was interesting.

 

[Dots And Stripes]

On 12/20/2019 at 10:11 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I cracked up when Midge's friends at the diner didn't even try to hide that they were listening to every word of her conversation with Benjamin. I'm glad he finally got to have that last conversation with her so he could get some closure.

Benjamin got closure but I also felt like the audience needed some closure there too.  We had to wait a long time to find out how she dumped him and why she didn't even try to make it work. I was so cheering for Benjamin when he told her that he's not Joel and doesn't have the same hang-ups as Joel.  I always thought it strange that Midge didn't even entertain the idea of balancing marriage and work given that Benjamin had been supportive of her career all along. 

[EtheltoTillie]

On 12/21/2019 at 11:58 PM, SoWindsor said:

What do you mean?

and speaking of John hamm, I’d love a don Draper cameo!

Helping midge advertise her act!

Maybe means AMC instead of HBO. 

[EtheltoTillie]

On 12/23/2019 at 11:07 AM, Clanstarling said:

I always thought Shy (the performer and his music) was based on Mathis. I knew nothing about his personal life, though according to Wikipedia, seems like the case is stronger that Shy was based on him than I originally thought. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Mathis#Personal_life

I thought that too and also went to that hat Wikipedia entry. 

[MYOS]

In the 50s, early 60s, if a woman wanted a career, she had to make the conscious choice she wouldn't have a family. Professional ambition was not what "good girls" did. Choosing a career over marriage and motherhood was slightly deviant/excentric/abnormal but some families might accept it. Having a career and a family was hard to imagine in the late 50s- early 60s, especially in this very stratified, upper middle class environment; I don't think the concept even made it to mainstream culture till the 80s?

[in working class families, women worked and raised kids, they just didn't have a "career".]

Meeting Carol would be eye-opening for Midge, because she has kids and goes on tour, but it might have been the first woman she'd met who had a career and a family (and an acknowledged sex life).

All in all, Midge is much more scandalous in what she says than in what she does.

So, Midge was in an ecosystem where it was Benjamin OR a career, and to her it seemed blindingly obvious - she can live without Benjamin, not without comedy. Even when she meets Benjamin again, he hasn't realized she was on tour and thus hasn't seen her mother for weeks. I don't remember if he's seen her perform or if he truly understands what she does "for a living" [which, in Midge's circles, would be in quotation marks.] For all we know Benjamin would have been tolerant of her going to a comedy club and performing on stage (better than Joel) but... would he have wanted a comedian wife? Really? So, sure Midge should have discussed things with him. And he might even have honestly said he didn't mind. But can anyone imagine a guy born in the 1920s-1930s to be cool with a wife travelling for months at a time making jokes about him?

Regarding Lenny Bruce: Midge wants his professional respect. There's obvious chemistry between the characters/the actors. There's something there. But would Lenny Bruce still see her as a professional equal (or aspiring equal) if he sees her as a woman (who in the 1950s-60s is definitely not seen as "equal"?) Would her turning back from a gifted comedian to a love interest diminish her standing with Lenny Bruce? It kinda sucks he's going to die in 6 years' time, with many years prior totally wasted on drugs, though. I don't want to see the downfall of Lenny Bruce, although it may be part of what we (and Midge) need as a parrallel to her rising career.

I really don't want Midge back with Joel. If Midge ever crosses the line with Lenny Bruce, I hope it's with just a kiss and before he's a wreck. As for Joel, he was just a booty call. He's a divorced father not abandonning his kids, ok, great for the era, but there's no chemistry there. So, perhaps, another love interest with respect for her craft?

Edited December 28, 2019 by MYOS

[Clanstarling]

17 minutes ago, MYOS said:

In the 50s, early 60s, if a woman wanted a career, she had to make the conscious choice she wouldn't have a family. Professional ambition was not what "good girls" did. Choosing a career over marriage and motherhood was slightly deviant/excentric/abnormal but some families might accept it. Having a career and a family was hard to imagine in the late 50s- early 60s, especially in this very stratified, upper middle class environment; I don't think the concept even made it to mainstream culture till the 80s?

[in working class families, women worked and raised kids, they just didn't have a "career".]

 

There were certainly career women in the 50's and 60's with families (and husbands), particularly in entertainment, and even in comedy. But they were, of course, outliers in the social norms.

My sense,  is that she realized that given her support system for the kids, she could be completely free to do what she wanted, when she wanted. She didn't really have to take care of anyone but herself. Benjamin, to her, was fun. But if he was permanent - regardless of how supportive he was - she would feel like she'd have to loop him in on her professional decisions. Given the way the spousal relationships were viewed in those days.

Of course, I'm projecting. When I divorced my first husband I had such a sense of freedom (no kids) that I had no interest in pursuing a relationship, much less finding a husband. I was enjoying making my own decisions and learning to do things myself.

 

[Cherry Cola]

On 12/18/2019 at 4:58 PM, lonestar said:

It's possible Reggie made the decision without telling Shy.  We shall see.

See, I thought Reggie set Midge up.  I thought he did it to get rid of her. I hope not. 

Too much Moishe, Joel's Mom, Joel, Mei, although she was a fun character, and what was the point of Archie and Imogene.  

Not enough Lenny Bruce. 

It was a whirlwind of a season.  Always goes too fast. I do wish there were more episodes.  

I also agree that Sophie scenes were a waste of time Except for Cary Elwes, whom I love, because of The Princess Bride.  

So does Midge lose the apartment? Those apartments are so beautiful. I want one!

[Scarlett45]

God Midge. I was screaming at the tv the entire time for her to please stop! You can’t go onstage at the Apollo and say that a famous black signee is gay in 1960! The Dorothy References??? “Friends of Dorothy” was THE PHRASE to say a man was gay on the sly. I knew that was going to happen. I guess Reggie isn’t gay like I thought, seems that he just wants to protect Shy and it’s not romantic/sexual. Why didn’t Midge sign the contract?!!!! Oh my. 
 

For the record I don’t think Midge is mean or was trying to be malicious, but her world up until this point has been very sheltered or insular- she didn’t even realize the black performers couldn’t stay at the same hotel as she did!! 
 

My mom pointed out that if Shy let her come on tour that would’ve been saying “yup what she said about me is true and I’m cool everyone knowing.”

I do feel for Midge though. Poor thing. 

[Scarlett45]

On 12/12/2019 at 8:27 PM, Razzberry said:

I kind of disagree that Midge outed Shy.  Based on the audience reaction, she didn't confirm anything they didn't already know or suspect.  They weren't disbelieving, or shocked.   Comics are taken with a grain of salt anyway, though apparently Shy sees it differently.

Yes people may have “known” but it wasn’t something you SAID out loud in PUBLIC especially if you were black. Shy had every right to be upset. This is his livelihood, safety and freedom- “homosexual activity” was still very much illegal. 
 

I understand why he was upset. 

 

23 hours ago, Dots And Stripes said:

  I always thought it strange that Midge didn't even entertain the idea of balancing marriage and work given that Benjamin had been supportive of her career all along.

That’s because she didn’t really love him or want to marry him. She LIKED him well enough, and enjoyed the sex, but she didn’t want to be with him. Had she really wanted to marry him she would’ve at least asked and been prepared to choose the tour over him. But she didn’t even think of him when she said yes. That’s the real key. 

[pasdetrois]

Midge and how she is portrayed make her my least favorite character, followed by Joel and Moishe. I've had the same complaint all along, which is that the show is too stagey and frantic. Hate the rat-a-tat-tat dialogue, which comes off as a bad 60s sitcom. And these two leads are the least talented of the cast. Moishe and Shirley could be great characters instead of cartoons.

Is Shy's character supposed to be suggested by Johnny Mathis?

Loved the actor in that role as well as seeing Sterling K. Brown and Wanda Sykes.

When the musicians stated "it's a stool set," was it because Shy has been beaten previously due to his sexual preferences? The musicians were very world-weary about it, rather than being alarmed.

Also, wouldn't Reggie have dressed Midge down immediately after her performance?

It doesn't make sense that Rose would give an impassioned speech about being taken care of her entire life when we saw her jet off to Paris and live in a garret.

Some pretty bad writing in Season 3. The writers didn't cohere all of the plot lines. The stupid beatniks were done to death and Sophie's story line was awful.

Love Susie's relationship with her roommate, although the second roommate needs to go. And the two thugs who know who Strindberg is are hilarious.

Well, the clothes were fabulous.

 

 

 

Edited December 30, 2019 by pasdetrois

[MoreCoffeePlease]

Susie, you are hilarious, and I know you care for Midge, but if you can't handle the money and you can't sign a contract (or have it signed), you shouldn't be a manager. I like her little apartment, by the way. What this the episode where the 3rd "roommate" was going to look for the hot water heater, which didn't exist? 

Quote

I think the key to this show is the casting of Rachel Brosnahan. She brings a charisma, charm and wit to the role that makes it understandable how the other characters (and viewers) would give her a break for her actions.
 

She is amazing. Very similar to Lauren Graham as Lorelei in Gilmore Girls. Very self-centered and always getting by on her charm, wit, and good looks.  Is there a thread where we can compare the 2 shows, and the 2 leading characters? You could probably design an entire college course on this!

Why did Imogene decide to go to school? I know she was tired of her husband being away so much, but it seemed to be an abrupt thing, since she had told Midge that she would take her husband back. (I recognize that a theme of the show is women trying to take control of their lives. Rose, Midge, etc.)

Edited December 30, 2019 by MoreCoffeePlease