S03.E08: A Jewish Girl Walks Into the Apollo...

[Pallas]

Joel readies his club for its grand opening. Midge asks Moishe for a favor. Susie suffers a loss and turns to an unexpected source for help. Midge learns a hard show business lesson. 

[NeenerNeener]

I'm not surprised Shy kicked her off the tour; her set made him sound like Liberace. She pretty much outed him without making an explicit announcement.

Some tv critics thought this was the best season yet, but I didn't enjoy this one quite as much as the first two.  Midge's parents losing their apartment and Sophie's Broadway play just didn't do it for me.

[Cramps]

The tv critics may not have gotten the entire  season when they reviewed it. 

[showme]

Who didn't see that coming from a mile away? I am surprised Midge felt it is appropriate to talk about her boss in that way, she is supposed to be this super observant and socially aware woman, and she didn't think it is a bad idea to talk about Shy that way? The Judy Garland reference, the closet and all the feminine references, it was cringe worthy, frankly I do not understand why the audience would find it funny, it is not like they all knew Shy was gay.

Edited December 14, 2019 by showme

[bybrandy]

I just feel like Midge wouldn't be quite so stupid to be quite so open even given what Reggie said.  I mean did anybody, even a little bit, not know that she was crossing the line and hard?

[Riplet68]

So, was that their way of putting the nail in the coffin of midge’s and Benjamin, our a way to give us hope?  At least we finally got an answer to what happened.

 Well, that ending sucked.  Hope Suzi doesn’t get charged with arson!  AndI hope they had insurance.  With her family, you never know.   Also hope midge’s and Joel don’t get back together.  Showrunner, are you seeing this?  We don’t want them back married.  Friend is good, anything else, bad.  Also, the whole Lenny Bruce thing?  Please don’t devastate her when 1966 comes along.  Though there really is nothing B else she could be.

Edited December 8, 2019 by Riplet68

[kittykat]

Welp.  After Midge offered to buy the Apt from Moishe I thought the season would end with Suzie confessing about the lost money and Midge firing her.  But once the Apollo set happened I knew she would lose the tour.

Really enjoyed the season (hence the two day binge) but clearly Midge still needs to learn what is on and off the table when it comes to her act.   And yeah I'm pretty sure that's a series wrap on Benjamin.

Still a lot of questions: Did Imogen take Archie back?  Is Midge still going to be able to move back to her apartment?  How did Abe get a critic gig with one article?

Great guest spots particularly Jason Alexander and Cary Elwes.  I only wish we got more Liza Weil.  It felt like we were going to get more with her and it never quite came together.

[shapeshifter]

Too bad Midge didn’t do a shtick about Shy’s imaginary girlfriends.

But Midge was Mrs. Maisel who always airs the dirty laundry.
She did it with Joel, she did it with Sophie Lennon, and so she did it with Shy Baldwin.
So we should not be surprised.
At least not entirely.

There was fallout with Midge's using Joel in her show, and arguably more professional fallout with Midge using Sophie in her set. Should Midge have foreseen the results of making fun of Shy's effeminate lifestyle? Maybe not before she said it, but not after (and before she went to meet the plane)? 

Would it have mattered if she had gone to Shy to apologize the next morning?

I guess we were supposed to think that Midge thought everyone at the Apollo *knew* about Shy. But right before she went on there was the whole thing about how all the home town people brought all the food they thought he liked that he didn’t (which Midge didn’t give away).

Are we supposed to think that if Susie was there that she would have told Midge “not to talk about the ‘food’” ten times until Midge said “Oh. The ‘food,’” meaning not his sexual identity either? But did Susie know about Shy's preference for men? (I don't recall if Midge shared that even with Susie.)

But I guess it really boils down to Reggie telling Midge that he didn’t know that she “knew” [that Shy was gay]
--although all of his focus on Shy's secret food preferences was probably Reggie trying to tell Midge not to reveal any secrets, even though Reggie emphasized joking about the Shy she had gotten to know backstage on the road.

But Moms Mabley's manager threw her off her game, and, again, Susie wasn’t there. 
And we saw Susie gambling throughout the episodes, so we knew the other shoe was going to drop, even though we (or at least I) couldn't figure out the other shoe would be an euphemism in the form of a ruby red slipper. 
 

At least Lenny Bruce didn’t die. Yet. I hope next season isn’t 8 more episodes of doom with hints of his demise. But I’d rather that than no Lenny. 
 

oh well. I loved the hat when she went to talk to her father-in-law about the apartment. 
 

Edited December 8, 2019 by shapeshifter
verb agreement, spacing, clarity

[preeya]

Since we're posting hats:

[CinAZ]

Well, how depressing of a season ending was that.

Hot Doctor Ben was right, she didn’t give him a chance to decide if being the husband of a Stand up comic was for him. 
 

she does have a knack for shitting all over the good things in her life.

well. Another year of waiting.

[qtpye]

31 minutes ago, CinAZ said:

Well, how depressing of a season ending was that.

Hot Doctor Ben was right, she didn’t give him a chance to decide if being the husband of a Stand up comic was for him. 
 

she does have a knack for shitting all over the good things in her life.

well. Another year of waiting.

I was pissed that she never gave him a chance. She really was not into Dr. Hotness and he honestly deserves better.

Edited December 8, 2019 by qtpye

[shapeshifter]

3 hours ago, CinAZ said:

Well, how depressing of a season ending was that.

Hot Doctor Ben was right, she didn’t give him a chance to decide if being the husband of a Stand up comic was for him. 
 

she does have a knack for shitting all over the good things in her life.

well. Another year of waiting.

Nice, concise post^, @CinAZ.

Maybe you can do something similar with my rambling post about the Shy ending above? 

I really hope we get at least cameo or two next season with Shy and Mr Jewish Doctor Ben, but my old heart is set on Luke Kirby's Lenny Bruce. 😛

[leighdear]

All of the Sophie detour bored me.  I'd rather they focused more on Noah & Astrid, her kids, etc.  

And why did they make Midge's parents so unbelievably tone deaf, pathetic and whiny?  The coconut pancake conversation, Rose refusing to acknowledge Midge's career, the constant battle with Joel's parents, the STUPID magazine Abe was going to put out, etc.  They lost all of their charming quirks and just became obnoxious caricatures. 

I don't know if I'm going to bother with season 4.  We all know Midge is just going to work in Joel's club.

[Carolina Girl]

The one scene I found interesting in light of the final scene was during her departure and asking her mother what her problem is with her career in comedy, Rose tells Midge, essentially, that her act seems to be based on her holding everyone important in her life up to ridicule.   And in fact, it is this that gets her fired from the tour.  It's a fine line, and Midge crossed it.  Also this is 1959.  Being outed was something that could literally kill someone's career.  And Midge DID have to know that people didn't know Shy was gay - remember Reggie telling her that all the neighborhood women were bringing their daughters backstage along with the food?

She was tone deaf in this instance.  REALLY tone deaf.  

What was also interesting is Reggie telling Susie at the end - "one day YOU'll have to do this."  He acknowledges that Midge is going to be big.  

[leighdear]

Being outed back then could actually get somebody killed.  Agreed, Midge has a lot more to learn, but doesn't seem to be making much progress.  Didn't she get anything out of that drunken wedding "toast" she gave last season?  

And did Susie actually commit arson, and the writers treat it as a whimsical lark?  I really wonder about these people creating these scenarios.  The humor is still good, just the implausible situations and ludicrous results.  And sorry, the "Midge-wakes-up-in-a-pool-chair" with synchronized swimmers right there came of as stupid to me. 

I did love Susie's line to Sophie "You may be a star right now, but she's going to be a legend!"  

Edited December 9, 2019 by leighdear

[txhorns79]

On 12/8/2019 at 4:23 AM, shapeshifter said:

There was fallout with Midge's using Joel in her show, and arguably more professional fallout with Midge using Sophie in her set. Should Midge have foreseen the results of making fun of Shy's effeminate lifestyle? Maybe not before she said it, but not after (and before she went to meet the plane)? 

I like to think that given Midge keeps doing this, it gives you a nice insight into who she really is.  No personal relationship is sacrosanct for her.  She will use someone as fodder for her act, if she thinks it will get her a laugh, regardless of the consequences.  I also think she truly believes she can just "cute" her way out of any negative reaction, or perhaps thinks her talent is enough to get away with it.  In a way, it's very interesting on how what I see as a strawberry milkshake of a show has such a dark undercurrent.   

[preeya]

8 hours ago, leighdear said:

All of the Sophie detour bored me.  I'd rather they focused more on Noah & Astrid, her kids, etc.  

Me too. I really don't like Jane Lynch; never have.

[shapeshifter]

3 hours ago, leighdear said:

did love Susie's line to Sophie "You may be a star right now, but she's going to be a legend!"  

Yes, so many good lines. 

2 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I also think she truly believes she can just "cute" her way out of any negative reaction

—which is kind how Sherman-Palladino could get away with stuff too. No particular stuff comes to mind that S-P “gets away with” —IIRC her personal life is pretty bland— but S-P’s writing is often as “cute” as Midge and her patter. Is Midge supposed to be a prettier, more daring,  more physically recognizable version of S-P? Does Amy S-P wish she had been Midge?

I wish I had been with Lenny Bruce as we see him in this series. Maybe S-P does too. 

Edited December 9, 2019 by shapeshifter

[Jessica Yes]

Totally saw the ending coming once Midge went up there and basically blew Shy's cover. I was disappointed that we weren't getting 10 episodes like last season. Here are my hopes for next season: More Jackie, Astrid, and Lenny. Less Joel, Archie, and Sophie. I'd like to see Benjamin back but I think they closed the door on that, though now that's she not going on tour, who knows. I appreciate the diversity that season 3 brought with Shy and his band and Mai and her family but there was way too much focus on Shy, a character who was seen only once last season.  I'd like to keep the Mai character around but that just means more Joel, ugh.

[Carolina Girl]

I hope that Susie's diatribe to Sophie after her disastrous opening night means that we're finally done with Sophie, her schtick and her obnoxious (no longer ex, I'll bet) manager.  

[Juneau Gal]

9 hours ago, Jessica Yes said:

Totally saw the ending coming once Midge went up there and basically blew Shy's cover. I was disappointed that we weren't getting 10 episodes like last season. Here are my hopes for next season: More Jackie, Astrid, and Lenny. Less Joel, Archie, and Sophie. I'd like to see Benjamin back but I think they closed the door on that, though now that's she not going on tour, who knows. I appreciate the diversity that season 3 brought with Shy and his band and Mai and her family but there was way too much focus on Shy, a character who was seen only once last season.  I'd like to keep the Mai character around but that just means more Joel, ugh.

Well we cannot see more Jackie since the actor who played him, sadly has died.

[shapeshifter]

13 hours ago, Razzberry said:

Rachel Brosnahan explains why Midge and Lenny don't jump into bed  and I couldn't agree more!

Reading past the headline to the final paragraph quote:

Quote

Sherman-Palladino added, “The fact that she was there for him last year when he was feeling low and in the season finale, and she shows up for him… [A] lot of time it translates into, ‘Well, eventually they're going to have sex.’ But it's not necessarily the way it's going to go.”

"Not necessarily" means that Lenny and Midge could still knock boots, or at least make out.
I may be old, but my will-they-won't-they odometer still works.

Edited December 10, 2019 by shapeshifter

[xaxat]

Pretty much everybody called out Midge this episode. Joel, Benjamin, Rose, Reggie. And they all had a legitimate argument.

I couldn't believe Midge's set. Especially since the legend of Shy Baldwin gave her just as much material. She started the joke about lipstick on his collar and I thought she might be getting on firmer footing, but nope

On 12/8/2019 at 4:23 AM, shapeshifter said:

But Midge was Mrs. Maisel who always airs the dirty laundry.

Wanda Sykes as Moms Mabley was brilliant casting.

I'm going to miss Reggie/Sterling K. Brown. (And Carol, the bassist.)

[Old Man Neil]

Just now, xaxat said:

Wanda Sykes as Moms Mabley was brilliant casting.

Totally agree. I think that's what the show does best, reintroduce nearly forgotten performers to a new audience. 

And Carol was modeled on the prolific session musician Carol Kaye. 

https://www.carolkaye.com/

[kwnyc]

Quote

I like to think that given Midge keeps doing this, it gives you a nice insight into who she really is.  No personal relationship is sacrosanct for her.

Yep. And she has a talent for self-destruction that has made her her own worst enemy: she went after Sophie Lennon publicly...when Sophie was the only person in comedy (other than Lenny Bruce) who ever tried to help her. And the ONLY major woman in comedy in the show's world. 

As talented as an artist is, they will not have a career if they keep shitting on people. 

[ShadowFacts]

On 12/8/2019 at 3:23 AM, shapeshifter said:

At least Lenny Bruce didn’t die. Yet. I hope next season isn’t 8 more episodes of doom with hints of his demise. But I’d rather that than no Lenny. 

He seems to be a hit with the fans and I think the actor won an Emmy for this role, so I bet he will be back. I think they'd have to do 5 or 6 years of time-jumping to get to the tragedy of his death in 1966. Midge is going to have to do some rebuilding after being dropped by Shy, so she will need his shoulder.

On 12/9/2019 at 11:54 AM, leighdear said:

And did Susie actually commit arson, and the writers treat it as a whimsical lark?  I really wonder about these people creating these scenarios.  The humor is still good, just the implausible situations and ludicrous results.  And sorry, the "Midge-wakes-up-in-a-pool-chair" with synchronized swimmers right there came of as stupid to me. 

Yeah, she did thank her sister for doing a felony with her. Not super funny.

I did like the scene where Midge and Rose get real with their problems with each other.  Now that Rose is heading into a matchmaking career and Abe has an apparently good, prestigious job, there can be some forward movement with those two, minus the Maisel/Queens lifestyle.

What I really do not understand is the Midge-Joel dynamic, and Midge wanting to step back into her old apartment life. Susie said everybody knows he loves her, can't get any more plain than that, but what is up with Midge? She throws over Benjamin, resists Lenny, but ends up in bed with Joel and then Las Vegas marriage. Is it just that he dumped her and she can't let it go? I don't know what to make of that.

[CatWarmer]

Just finished the last two episodes and was disappointed in the season finale - kept checking to see how much more time was left.  I am not interested in Sophie or Imogene, and barely in Joel.  Both sets of parents were in full overkill mode, although I did enjoy the college students busily copying Abe's correction of the equation, which he did without even thinking.

But in defense of Midge's Apollo routine - yes, she had a history of going too far but that was early in her career.  She's played some major venues, was a polished performer, and I think did not cross the line.  She probably wasn't even consciously thinking of his sexual orientation.  She was just riffing on the things she was comfortable with - clothes, makeup, travel, etc.   Plus at that time it was very common for male comedians to play gay and cross dress and swish and such - it was always taken as a joke.  Shy had a reputation as a ladies man and no one questioned that.  If the Apollo theater audience had though Midge was actually revealing Shy as homosexual, they would have been aghast, not rolling with laughter.

The problem was that Shy was extremely sensitive and felt betrayed so reacted without thinking.  And Reggie let Shy think Midge did it all on her own. and therefore threw her under the bus.  He admitted that to her face; "Did you think I was going to tell him it was me?".  He knew he was screwing her over but he was not going to risk his own relationship for truth or honor.

[EtheltoTillie]

6 hours ago, CatWarmer said:

Just finished the last two episodes and was disappointed in the season finale - kept checking to see how much more time was left.  I am not interested in Sophie or Imogene, and barely in Joel.  Both sets of parents were in full overkill mode, although I did enjoy the college students busily copying Abe's correction of the equation, which he did without even thinking.

But in defense of Midge's Apollo routine - yes, she had a history of going too far but that was early in her career.  She's played some major venues, was a polished performer, and I think did not cross the line.  She probably wasn't even consciously thinking of his sexual orientation.  She was just riffing on the things she was comfortable with - clothes, makeup, travel, etc.   Plus at that time it was very common for male comedians to play gay and cross dress and swish and such - it was always taken as a joke.  Shy had a reputation as a ladies man and no one questioned that.  If the Apollo theater audience had though Midge was actually revealing Shy as homosexual, they would have been aghast, not rolling with laughter.

The problem was that Shy was extremely sensitive and felt betrayed so reacted without thinking.  And Reggie let Shy think Midge did it all on her own. and therefore threw her under the bus.  He admitted that to her face; "Did you think I was going to tell him it was me?".  He knew he was screwing her over but he was not going to risk his own relationship for truth or honor.

Agree with this. She said she was “two houses away.”  And the audience laughed. But Judy Garland shoes. Oof. Also Midge wouldn’t have been able to save her. The last scene reveals that Midge hadn’t known. 

[tennisgurl]

So this episode makes me wonder...have we just had a whole story leading up to us realizing that Midge is kind of a selfish jerk? It was always kind of there, in a background "oh yeah that seemed kind of mean but Midge is so cute!" kind of way, like her tossing a beach-ball at the swimmers after her night hanging with Lenny, or her ragging on her kids or ignoring them, but they seemed to be really going hard on her lacking in empathy or just foresight lately. 

I mean, I dont think we knew that Midge dumped Benjamin through a letter, the 1950s equivalent of dumping someone through text message, without ever even asking him what he thought about her comedy tour or giving him a chance, and without even having the guts to dump him to his face. Honestly, she seemed to see Benjamin, especially in retrospect, as her settling, when she thought her comedy career wasnt going to take off, so maybe its for the best. Benjamin is a good guy and deserves better than to be second choice. 

Its like what Abe said in the last episode, that now that Midge has a voice she has to be careful about how she uses it, and like when Rose said that she uses her act to ridicule everyone in her life, and that she might not realize there are lines you dont cross. Or even last season, when she told a bunch of awkward tasteless jokes at her friends wedding shower (even joking about it being a shotgun wedding, which it was) or way back in the pilot when she insulted her rabbi so badly it took them years for him to talk to them. Midge just has no clue what lines you dont cross, and no situational awareness. What she did with Shy is even similar to her tirade against Sophie back in season one, which almost got her blacklisted from the industry because Midge never met a bridge she didnt want to burn, except this is quite a bit worse. Not only could (even accidentally) outing someone at this time be horribly dangerous for the person being outed, making this n especially horrible thing to do, but Shy is basically a decent guy who did seem to consider Midge a friend, so her playing around with outing him for the yuks would come off as a major betrayal, not just as an employee, but as a friend, especially over something so secret. 

I mean, come ON Midge! Either you are being a dick, or you are being seriously obtuse. Even though this isnt 2019 where people are more culturally familiar with LGBTQ stereotypes and signifies, the "friend of Dorothy" ruby slippers stuff was a well known *wink wink* for being gay (Suzie knew right away) by then, especially for someone who has been hanging in bars and clubs and with entertainment people around New York and Vegas, so I dont know if Midge can really play the "Just a sheltered rich girl who didnt know better" card at this point. I dont think she meant to out Shy, or even that a lot of the Apollo crowd would have "gotten" what was being hinted at, as I dont think that Midge is really out to purposefully be cruel to people, she just realized that she could get some laughs making fun of how high maintenance Shy is, and didnt think about what they could annually mean if anyone picked up on the subtext, a subtext that Midge had to know about. It was so amazingly tone deaf, and who knows if she would go further in later acts, so I cant really blame Shy and Reggie for giving her the boot. 

It actually kind of reminded me of Sophie and her mess of a Broadway debut. She was nervous and out of her element, but as soon as she heard a chuckle, which seemed familiar and was giving her some validation, she just went HARD on her old yuck fest, even knowing that it would end disastrously. Of course, I dont think it even occurred to Midge that she screwed up until Reggie told her she wasnt getting on the plane, because she was calling that night a win, and probably didnt think at all about what she actually said. Tone deaf, and now yet another bridge has been burned. 

This season wasnt as good as the last two seasons, but I still liked it. 

[shapeshifter]

On 12/10/2019 at 8:28 PM, ShadowFacts said:

Yeah, she did thank her sister for doing a felony with her. Not super funny.

We could fan-wank that the house was a death trap and needed to be torched as a favor to the economy of the universe because a renovation and even a controlled implosion would cost more than torching it. But, yeah, probably not what Susie was thinking of.

I wonder if a year-long renovation and selling of the house would be significantly more money than the insurance money. As a person on of little means, I think of things like that. But Susie needed "cash now" as they currently shill in the TV scam ads, and Susie does not think long term beyond hitting the jackpot.

[Neurochick]

22 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

So this episode makes me wonder...have we just had a whole story leading up to us realizing that Midge is kind of a selfish jerk? It was always kind of there, in a background "oh yeah that seemed kind of mean but Midge is so cute!" kind of way, like her tossing a beach-ball at the swimmers after her night hanging with Lenny, or her ragging on her kids or ignoring them, but they seemed to be really going hard on her lacking in empathy or just foresight lately. 

Yes, she is a selfish, self centered jerk.  

I realized that in episode 1, when she didn't know the words to White Christmas, it wasn't because she was Jewish, or from NYC, or anything like that, it's because that's how Midge is.  If something isn't about her, she doesn't care.  When she confronted her mother, it was because her mother embarrassed HER.   She dumped Benjamin because SHE was a coward, she never even considered his feelings, again all about HER.

On 12/11/2019 at 2:48 AM, CatWarmer said:

The problem was that Shy was extremely sensitive and felt betrayed so reacted without thinking.  And Reggie let Shy think Midge did it all on her own. and therefore threw her under the bus.  He admitted that to her face; "Did you think I was going to tell him it was me?".  He knew he was screwing her over but he was not going to risk his own relationship for truth or honor.

I don't like it when people are considered "extremely sensitive."  It's like saying their feelings don't count because....well Midge is cute and it's all good.  

There was a scene in an earlier episode this season when Susie told her that she was representing Sophie.  Midge jumps into the conga line and shoves a woman out of the way (I think she was a black woman).  That's how Midge is, "Get out of my way, it's all about me."  

If Amazon decided NOT to renew the series, now THAT would be interesting.  

Edited December 12, 2019 by Neurochick

[Razzberry]

I think Midge is getting bad rap.  Comics make fun of people, it's what they do.  Sensitive people should never be friends with or date one.   Even sitting in the audience can be hazardous if they can get a laugh, as my boyfriend found out during a Don Rickles show.😰

[ShadowFacts]

3 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

We could fan-wank that the house was a death trap and needed to be torched as a favor to the economy of the universe because a renovation and even a controlled implosion would cost more than torching it. But, yeah, probably not what Susie was thinking of.

I wonder if a year-long renovation and selling of the house would be significantly more money than the insurance money. As a person on of little means, I think of things like that. But Susie needed "cash now" as they currently shill in the TV scam ads, and Susie does not think long term beyond hitting the jackpot.

Susie is not a sophisticated arsonist so it should come to light, and delay a payout while it's being investigated. We know a main character is not going to disappear to prison, so somebody will know somebody at the insurance company yada yada (like how Joel got the liquor license) and she'll get away with it, but her gambling problem is still probably not going to disappear. Mafia goons reappear. Laughs ensue.

[xaxat]

1 hour ago, Neurochick said:

Yes, she is a selfish, self centered jerk.  

The first lines of the show were Midge at her wedding boasting that she's the type of person to toast herself.

23 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

So this episode makes me wonder...have we just had a whole story leading up to us realizing that Midge is kind of a selfish jerk?

I think the key to this show is the casting of Rachel Brosnahan. She brings a charisma, charm and wit to the role that makes it understandable how the other characters (and viewers) would give her a break for her actions.

But many of the characters turned on her this episode. Joel was right to criticize her insistence that  Ethan attend a school on the Upper West Side. They do need to watch their budget and she just assumed that other people would transport them from Queens while she was in Stockholm.

Benjamin was right in that she ghosted him without even discussing how her career as a comedian might be an issue. She walked away because she wanted to tour with Shy.

Rose was right that they both had the same motivation for involving each other in things that might typically be spoken about in private. Their desire for independence after a spouse has wronged them. Not sure if Midge understands that her reason for indignation works both ways.

And then there is Shy/Reggie. Shy trusted her enough to confide her in the one secret even Reggie didn't know. His real name. And that was pretty much the only personal secret she didn't at least imply about in her set.

[Razzberry]

I kind of disagree that Midge outed Shy.  Based on the audience reaction, she didn't confirm anything they didn't already know or suspect.  They weren't disbelieving, or shocked.   Comics are taken with a grain of salt anyway, though apparently Shy sees it differently.

[Nordly Beaumont]

34 minutes ago, Razzberry said:

Comics are taken with a grain of salt anyway, though apparently Shy sees it differently.

Since it's Shy's life and Shy's secret, his feelings are the only ones that matter in this instance.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Razzberry said:

I kind of disagree that Midge outed Shy.  Based on the audience reaction, she didn't confirm anything they didn't already know or suspect.  They weren't disbelieving, or shocked.   Comics are taken with a grain of salt anyway, though apparently Shy sees it differently.

Midge may not have outed Shy to that audience, but Shy made clear to her that his sexual proclivities were not for public discussion, and she had told Shy she would honor that. OTOH, I don't think she thought she was outing him in that environment, especially since Reggie had prepped her the way he did (while assuming she didn't know Shy's "secret"):

Quote

[REGGIE] Shy is like family to these people. They want to hear stories about him. Stories about the road, late-night craziness, gossip, tantrums they love that sort of shit.

[MIDGE] You want me to talk about Shy on the road?

[REGGIE] - Yep.

[MIDGE] - Shy.

[REGGIE] Yes. It's not something you should do anywhere else, but here, in Harlem, his hometown, they'll eat it up.

Back in the 1960s when I was in high school, a girl remarked that another girl across the cafeteria was "wearing an interesting dress." And it was. It was a formal dress. I looked at it and immediately blurted out what I thought was obvious: "It's probably because she's pregnant." A day or 2 later, the pregnant girl cornered me in a stairwell and angrily accused me of spreading rumors about her. No one ate lunch with me after that. A month later and just a couple of weeks after she graduated, she gave birth to a little girl. Back in the 60s it's possible she might have been expelled and not received her diploma if it was "known" she was pregnant. I was clueless about such matters, even though I had a pregnancy scare myself. It's possible Midge didn't know all the possible consequences for Shy if he was publicly outed. Likely she was as clueless as I was at 16 about pregnancy.

[xaxat]

1 hour ago, Nordly Beaumont said:

Since it's Shy's life and Shy's secret, his feelings are the only ones that matter in this instance.

This. Shy begged Midge to help him keep a secret so well hidden that she didn't suspect it.

[Gulftastic]

Why was Lisa Weil's character suddenly right handed in this ep? We lefties spot these things!

Another good season. Midge might be starting to realise that her comedy can be dangerous.

Still the most gorgeous looking show on TV.

[Razzberry]

12 hours ago, Nordly Beaumont said:

Since it's Shy's life and Shy's secret, his feelings are the only ones that matter in this instance.

Speaking from a purely legal standpoint, the U.S. courts have made it abundantly clear that parody and satire are strongly protected by the First Amendment and are not defamatory. They don't care about hurt feelings or whether it's funny, and have said “It is the nature of satire that not everyone gets it”.

When Jerry Falwell sued Hustler magazine for publishing something about screwing his own mother in an outhouse, the US Supreme Court in a unanimous decision said he had no case, that is was clearly satire and people need to suck it up and not take it so seriously (not a direct quote, but the upshot).

I thought firing Midge was an overreaction under the circumstances, but Shy's the headliner so I guess he has that right.

These issues interest me, and I hope Lenny Bruce isn't there only to romance Midge, but I'm beginning to wonder.

Edited December 13, 2019 by Razzberry

[ShadowFacts]

5 hours ago, Gulftastic said:

Why was Lisa Weil's character suddenly right handed in this ep? We lefties spot these things!

I'm not a lefty and I spotted it. My son is, and plays guitar almost exclusively like a right-hander would, but can do both. I don't know why they would have Carol switch it up, maybe no reason at all, but I noticed.

[orza]

1 hour ago, Razzberry said:

Speaking from a purely legal standpoint, the U.S. courts have made it abundantly clear that parody and satire are strongly protected by the First Amendment and are not defamatory. They don't care about hurt feelings or whether it's funny, and have said “It is the nature of satire that not everyone gets it”.

When Jerry Falwell sued Hustler magazine for publishing something about screwing his own mother in an outhouse, the US Supreme Court in a unanimous decision said he had no case, that is was clearly satire and people need to suck it up and not take it so seriously (not a direct quote, but the upshot).

These issues interest me, and I hope Lenny Bruce isn't there only to romance Midge, but I'm beginning to wonder.

No one is debating the legality of what Midge did. Shy revealed something very personal to Midge and she promised to keep that a secret, something that back then could possibly be career-ending if it became public knowledge or might even get him killed in the Deep South. Midge knew the risk for Shy but nevertheless leveraged that information to get some cheap laughs on stage. That is despicable and speaks volumes about her character. I don't think Midge was clueless about it, she is just amoral in that regard. She uses whatever information comes her way as a punchline in her act when it suits her without regard for the human cost. We have consistently seen since season one that Midge is a self-absorbed jerk. When she is onstage she wants to get laughs and anything she can use is a means to that end. We see time and time again that what comedians say on-stage tends to reflect what kind of human beings they are off-stage. Bob Newhart and Louis CK come to mind.

The audience was not appalled by Midge's act because they didn't take any of it seriously. Shy's public image was that of a lady's man and that is what people believed. People love to laugh at things about other people that they know or believe to be patently untrue. The ridicule is just perceived as people being silly. Think of celebrity roasts or even best man speeches at weddings. It only gets uncomfortable or disturbing when people think there is some truth to it.

[Neurochick]

14 hours ago, Nordly Beaumont said:

Since it's Shy's life and Shy's secret, his feelings are the only ones that matter in this instance.

Thank you.  Shy's feelings were the only thing that mattered in this case.  Migde is starting to face the consequences of her actions.

12 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Back in the 1960s when I was in high school, a girl remarked that another girl across the cafeteria was "wearing an interesting dress." And it was. It was a formal dress. I looked at it and immediately blurted out what I thought was obvious: "It's probably because she's pregnant." A day or 2 later, the pregnant girl cornered me in a stairwell and angrily accused me of spreading rumors about her. No one ate lunch with me after that. A month later and just a couple of weeks after she graduated, she gave birth to a little girl. Back in the 60s it's possible she might have been expelled and not received her diploma if it was "known" she was pregnant. I was clueless about such matters, even though I had a pregnancy scare myself. It's possible Midge didn't know all the possible consequences for Shy if he was publicly outed. Likely she was as clueless as I was at 16 about pregnancy.

But you were 16 and Midge was a grown woman.  I'm not going to give such a pass to an adult.

[kittykat]

On 12/10/2019 at 6:28 PM, ShadowFacts said:

He seems to be a hit with the fans and I think the actor won an Emmy for this role, so I bet he will be back. I think they'd have to do 5 or 6 years of time-jumping to get to the tragedy of his death in 1966. Midge is going to have to do some rebuilding after being dropped by Shy, so she will need his shoulder.

Yeah, she did thank her sister for doing a felony with her. Not super funny.

I did like the scene where Midge and Rose get real with their problems with each other.  Now that Rose is heading into a matchmaking career and Abe has an apparently good, prestigious job, there can be some forward movement with those two, minus the Maisel/Queens lifestyle.

What I really do not understand is the Midge-Joel dynamic, and Midge wanting to step back into her old apartment life. Susie said everybody knows he loves her, can't get any more plain than that, but what is up with Midge? She throws over Benjamin, resists Lenny, but ends up in bed with Joel and then Las Vegas marriage. Is it just that he dumped her and she can't let it go? I don't know what to make of that.

I took Midge wanting to buy the apartment not just as a link to her old life but as a solution to take care of her family.  Her parents are miserable in Queens and her kids don't really have a steady home.  She was buying the apartment with the intent that her parents and kids (and Zelda) would live there, give both a sense of security and familiarity.  After two years of living off her parents, I thought it was one of her more selfless acts.  She predicted a steady income (before her firing) and figured that it was best for all parties involved.  Even Moishe seemed impressed with her business sense in the deal.

We don't know how much of Midge's money Suzi lost.  A substantial amount but not all, I imagine it will come up in S4 especially if she doesn't get the insurance money.

[QQQQ]

I thought Wanda Sykes was great!

[Razzberry]

Wanda Sykes was indeed great.

I'm not saying what Midge did was right, but Reggie told her to drop her normal routine, to make it about Shy and the audience would love it.  She had to improvise at the last minute, they did love it, and she went with it.  I even saw some nodding in the audience, so Shy's career is undamaged.  He'll go on, singing love songs to swooning women with baked goods.  Meanwhile, Midge once again sees her life blow up as a result of the whims of a man, as her mom said.

Reggie was right, they really aren't friends,  so I think her biggest mistake was in not signing the contract in a timely manner.   Obviously not a popular opinion, but I'm sticking to it.  😜

Edited December 14, 2019 by Razzberry

[txhorns79]

On 12/12/2019 at 4:21 PM, xaxat said:

Rose was right that they both had the same motivation for involving each other in things that might typically be spoken about in private. Their desire for independence after a spouse has wronged them. Not sure if Midge understands that her reason for indignation works both ways.

I wish Midge had reminded Rose that it wasn't Abe who blew up her trust fund.  It was all Rose.  Yeah, Abe blew up their life by quitting his job without even consulting her, but I don't recall Rose reaching out to Abe to ask him if he was cool with her cutting off the trust. 

[shapeshifter]

7 hours ago, Razzberry said:

I'm not saying what Midge did was right, but Reggie told her to drop her normal routine, to make it about Shy and the audience would love it.  She had to improvise at the last minute, they did love it, and she went with it.  I even saw some nodding in the audience, so Shy's career is undamaged.  He'll go on, singing love songs to swooning women with baked goods.

Yes, and I wouldn't be shocked if they had Shy and Midge patch things up next season --but I doubt that will happen because the cast is already so bloated. 
  
 

[lonestar]

The woman who danced at the Apollo before Shy appeared and in his song was outstanding. I had to rewatch her, she was so good.

[Eri]

On 12/13/2019 at 7:47 PM, kittykat said:

We don't know how much of Midge's money Suzi lost.  A substantial amount but not all, I imagine it will come up in S4 especially if she doesn't get the insurance money.

I had assumed that she lost Midge's down payment for the apartment. Either way, bad move on Susie's part - I had liked seeing her character growth this season as she learns how to be a better talent manager but once they showed her growing interest at the casino in Vegas, I knew it was a recipe for disaster. They wasted way too much time on her managing Sophie Lennon and her reputation got damaged in the process. Always read the fine print Susie!

On 12/11/2019 at 2:48 AM, CatWarmer said:

But in defense of Midge's Apollo routine - yes, she had a history of going too far but that was early in her career.  She's played some major venues, was a polished performer, and I think did not cross the line.  She probably wasn't even consciously thinking of his sexual orientation.  She was just riffing on the things she was comfortable with - clothes, makeup, travel, etc.   Plus at that time it was very common for male comedians to play gay and cross dress and swish and such - it was always taken as a joke.  Shy had a reputation as a ladies man and no one questioned that.  If the Apollo theater audience had though Midge was actually revealing Shy as homosexual, they would have been aghast, not rolling with laughter.

I agree - I was surprised that people were laughing at the thinly veiled comments, I thought there would've been outrage and they would've booed her off the stage...then Shy came on and women were practically clawing at him during his performance so I chalked it up to the audience just seeing Midge as a ridiculous white girl who didn't know what she was talking about and therefore shouldn't have been taken seriously.

I do however, see the other side of the coin on how that would be potentially damaging to Shy's reputation even if it wasn't spoken outright - it bordered on the line.  The ending left me a little confused because I couldn't tell whether Shy decided to void Midge's contract because he saw her act as a betrayal OR whether it was actually Reggie doing the firing because:  a) he wanted to protect Shy and his reputation as damage control or b) he was jealous that Shy confided so much in Midge and he was willing to make her collateral damage and Shy went along with it to appease Reggie. It was implied that Shy and Reggie were more than just companions after the stool act and after Shy's breakdown, I could see him doing whatever Reggie would want to make up for it.

Edited December 15, 2019 by Eri