S03.E10: Cri de Coeur

[Umbelina]

17 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

Well, again, I did note that "later that we are told that she had upset some people".

Let me try one more time to get my point across.  Pretend that you know absolutely nothing about the BRF, except for what you have learned from watching these three seasons.  Do you think you would come to conclusion that Margaret turned out the way did because she was spoiled?  Or that she was beastly to her servants and the common folk?

I would think she is a bitch, frequently an amusing bitch, if you are observing and not her target.  From her rude "GET OUT!" to her various maids, to her condescending smile then frowns while waving to "the public," to her constant insults to her sister (you've managed to disappear while wearing the crown,) to the spectacle she made of herself, shocking the staff and the Queen, resulting in REMOVING her from duties and hastily summoning her mother back from Scotland, to having an affair with a married man and father.  She's completely self absorbed, occasionally amusing, and apparently mostly pissed off that she was born second and so can't lord it over EVERYONE that she's "THE QUEEN" even though she's shown time and time again, she has almost no concept of what that means.

[PeterPirate]

5 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I would think she is a bitch, frequently an amusing bitch, if you are observing and not her target.  From her rude "GET OUT!" to her various maids, to her condescending smile then frowns while waving to "the public," to her constant insults to her sister (you've managed to disappear while wearing the crown,) to the spectacle she made of herself, shocking the staff and the Queen, resulting in REMOVING her from duties and hastily summoning her mother back from Scotland, to having an affair with a married man and father.  She's completely self absorbed, occasionally amusing, and apparently mostly pissed off that she was born second and so can't lord it over EVERYONE that she's "THE QUEEN" even though she's shown time and time again, she has almost no concept of what that means.

Yes.  But what you did not say was that she was a spoiled child.  Because the show didn't portray her that way.  And I will take things back to the post that started this kerfuffle:

On 11/30/2019 at 2:42 PM, PeterPirate said:

I'm on Team Margaret now that I've had a little time to digest season 3.  Peter Townsend remained married to the same woman for 36 years, but unfortunately not to Margaret Windsor.  What a shame the monarchy had to go and ruin a perfectly nice girl.  

Like I said, I accept that Margaret was a "ruined" person.  On the show, in real life, whatever.  But the TV version was a perfectly nice (12yo) girl until The Mustache dropped the hammer on her.  

[Roseanna]

17 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

But the TV version was a perfectly nice (12yo) girl until The Mustache dropped the hammer on her.  

A nice girl don't try to steal her sister's heritage by saying that "I can do the job better than you". A nice girl says to her sister just the opposite: "Of course you can do it well" and do everything to support her.

Of course jealousy and envy aren't rare in the relationship between siblings. But unlike in ordinary families, as Elizabeth was born first, she was an heir and Margaret couldn't compete with her.

That Tommy Lascelles had to learn Margaret the facts of life, shows that her parents had done wrong by treating as if their daughers were equal when they weren't. 

[iggysaurus]

On 11/23/2019 at 1:41 PM, Umbelina said:

Yes, but she only met him because she WAS a royal, she was never "ordinary" and probably would have detested it.  Washing dishes, working in a shop, trying to afford to buy a horse or a pedigreed dog, worrying over bills, doing laundry and her own cleaning, *gasp* she would even have to dress herself!  Also, no one to hand the children off to for most of her life, wiping noses and cleaning up vomit, changing diapers...you know, a "normal life."

I agree that Elizabeth wouldn't have wanted to be "ordinary" in that sense.  But I do believe she would've liked to be "just" aristocratic, and NOT be queen.  There is a middle ground there.  Yes she wanted the perks of being wealthy (most of us would probably like that!) but just not the heavy burden of being the actual queen.  I know there are lots of people who are upper crust British society, or maybe even minor royals, who can do whatever they want in life because they aren't in the spotlight 24/7. They can choose their partners, their careers, AND have expensive hobbies like raising horses or flying planes. I think that is what Elizabeth would've liked.  Saying she wished she could have the freedom to do what she wanted doesn't mean she necessarily wished to be working class or poor.  

Regarding Phillip (in answer to many of the posts here), he does seem out of touch and ungrateful, but I think the point is that wealth and status don't automatically make people feel fulfilled or content.  I don't fault him for feeling like this (well, not entirely) because it is human nature to question the meaning of life and to feel dissatisfied with it all sometimes, no matter how fortunate you are. In fact I think the more privileged a person is, the more likely they are to be unhappy.  (Think of all the child stars who are totally messed up by fame.) It's a great paradox - those who don't have wealth (which is the majority of us) tend to feel like anyone who does have it should spend their entire life appreciating it and feeling grateful and humble. But that's easier said than done.  It's like "the grass is always greener" no matter what our station in life.  Case in point: Phillip and the astronauts.  He was dazzled by their achievement and wanted them to live up to some impossible ideal in his head, while to them they were just doing their jobs. Meanwhile, they were dazzled by being in the palace and hearing about royal life, which to him is boring and just his everyday life.  Both idealized the other type of life.  Neither one is perfect in reality. 

[Scarlett45]

On 12/3/2019 at 4:02 PM, iggysaurus said:

I agree that Elizabeth wouldn't have wanted to be "ordinary" in that sense.  But I do believe she would've liked to be "just" aristocratic, and NOT be queen.

Yes, to Elizabeth, being ordinary meant not being Queen, her entire social circle was elite British aristocracy, THAT was still going to be a part of her identity in her fantasy. 

Princess Margaret's dog knew something was wrong. 

Jumping around a bit, the fight between Tony and Margaret, felt very real, very nasty and verbally abusive. Not wanting to be with your spouse is one thing (and taking someone on the side) but the nasty name calling and notes, there's a lot of anger and resentment between the two of them. When Tony got in her face I was scared he was going to hit her (Im glad he did not). HBC is such a great actress, she played the desperation and the depression effortlessly. The final scene between the two of them was very well done. 

This season was uneven for me as well, there were parts I really enjoyed- like Prince Charles and Princess Anne's sibling relationships were the stand out bits, as far as episodes I liked Bubbikins, Aberfan and Charles' time in Wales the best.

[Peace 47]

My biggest problem with the episode was what it was not, rather than what it was.  If this is the last time that we are going to see the Queen for 1 year, 2 years, whenever the next season comes out, then the final story of the season should have been about her as the main character.  It should have told a story that related to her journey this season, but it was pretty much all Margaret, all the time.

i did think that scene between Margaret and the Queen at the end was quite well-written and acted and was one of my favorites of the season.  The dialogue felt very believable, even the little touches like how HBC delivered the line “tired” when the Queen asked how Margaret felt, because yes, depression and a suicide attempt probably just left Margaret drained at that point.

[MamaMax]

On 12/3/2019 at 5:02 PM, iggysaurus said:

I know there are lots of people who are upper crust British society, or maybe even minor royals, who can do whatever they want in life because they aren't in the spotlight 24/7. They can choose their partners, their careers, AND have expensive hobbies like raising horses or flying planes. I think that is what Elizabeth would've liked.  Saying she wished she could have the freedom to do what she wanted doesn't mean she necessarily wished to be working class or poor.  

And thats EXACTLY what her life would have been, had Uncle David not abdicated. 

[Ohiopirate02]

Just now, MamaMax said:

And thats EXACTLY what her life would have been, had Uncle David not abdicated. 

Until David passed away.  He could have chosen to become king, keep Wallis as his mistress and live as a "bachelor" king, but he was never going to marry just to produce heirs.  Even if Wallis would have left him, he still would never have married to beget heirs.  There was a persistent rumor during his lifetime that he was unable to father children.  Then depending on who passes first, Elizabeth either becomes queen or heir apparent as her father takes the throne.  Elizabeth's place in the succession would never have been in jeopardy.  

And then you have to factor in Philip.  I would have to assume the marriage would have happened if David had not abdicated. As much as this show wants the viewer to believe Porchy was a viable love interest for Elizabeth in the 40s, I don't see it.  Philip was Elizabeth's schoolgirl crush and even at second in line to the throne she was a serious catch.  Elizabeth would have been a naval officer's wife travelling from post to post.  She and Philip may have had their own country house where Elizabeth could indulge in her passion for horses, but she was never going to be a country gentlewoman raising racehorses.  

[paramitch]

As with most of this season, I thought this was tremendously entertaining, but also kind of a strange misfire. And as always with Peter Morgan, I think his sympathies are tiresomely, consistently, not-so-secretly focused on all the MANPAIN!

I mean (eyeroll) Oh, poor Tony! The pain when he actually realizes Margaret finally cheated on him! "She's my wife," he says to the woman he's been openly cheating with, and you can hear the bars of Margaret's cage clanging. So fucking gross.

Classic Madonna/Whore complex: It didn't matter that he screwed everything he could for years -- the moment she finally steps out and says "enough" and grabs some happiness, we get huge scenes devoted to his poor hurt little ego (and worst of all, other scenes in which the royal family actively enables him). Those scenes made me sick, and I don't even LIKE Margaret all that much. Sigh.

The worst part is that I adore Ben Daniels (I saw him play Valmont in NYC in Les Liaisons Dangereuses with Laura Linney and he was marvelous and had this completely different, playful take on the role). Daniels is amazing. And sings. But ugh, Tony's awful.

And that birthday dinner scene was agonizing, and so upsetting. Again, I dislike Margaret (she's a privileged ass, and I hate people who are unkind), but that whole scene was beyond the pale. Margaret was 100% right and they should have felt ashamed of themselves. It was horrible enough to make me question why I was watching this show, if THESE are the protagonists. (And OMG, how low has the Queen Mother fallen? I practically hear Evil Disney music now she's been so terrible this season. And here again.)

Anyway. The standouts for me this episode were Helena BC, Olivia C, Harold W, and it was so much fun to see Harry Treadway (Dr. Frankenstein in "Penny Dreadful") transformed, tan, and blond as Roddy the Hottie. And I still can't believe Heath was Michael Maloney, who was so wonderful in Truly Madly Deeply and Henry V.  It's not that he's gotten older, his voice is so much different! Much deeper.

On 11/25/2019 at 6:59 AM, benteen said:

The best scene was again between Elizabeth and Harold Wilson.  I'll miss Jason Watkins on this show as he was great.  He was the first prime minister she invited for dinner since Churchill.

Though I found myself annoyed again with how fast and loose they were playing with the timeline.  Sometimes it's 1974, then it's 1976, then it's 1977.  What I mean is, they make it seem like Wilson resigned immediately after becoming prime minister in 1974 but he stayed on for another two-plus years.  Him having Alzheimer's was rumored though I can see why the show went with it.

That was a lovely scene, and I loved the one between Elizabeth and Margaret at the end as well. I wish we'd gotten more of that and less of the silly salacious stuff, but that's what sells.

On 11/26/2019 at 7:19 AM, pasdetrois said:

Exactly. It has been weird. The series should be re-titled "The Crown (but not really)." Whether one believes in monarchies or not, Elizabeth has been a steadfast hard worker for her entire adult life. I'm more interested in how she ruled, more of the challenges she faced, more of her personal life than the snippets we've seen.

My main complaint with this show, as fun as it has been so far, is that Peter Morgan has little real interest in exploring Elizabeth as a person or character at all. Everything he focuses on seems to be adjacent to her. I would say as of this season he is actively antagonistic to her, in fact.

On 11/26/2019 at 8:20 AM, WatchrTina said:

Ergo, we see the focus on Charles growing into his new role as heir apparent, Philip's mid-life crisis, Margaret's ongoing soap-opera of a life, and even the saga of the Queen's mother-in-law.  It's a shame because I LOVE Olivia Coleman but I'm not really surprised that the show is pointing its lens at other members of the royal family more frequently this season. Given what we know is coming in royal history, I'm afraid the focus on the family (and not the queen) is likely to continue.

I still think there were so many wasted opportunities -- to actually give us more of the real and complex relationship with Charles and Elizabeth versus some manufactured cold barrier, to actually show us Elizabeth's feelings about Tony publicly humiliating Margaret, etc. Instead, we get so much empty space (and worse, so much of it is openly inaccurate and blatantly fictionalized).

On 11/27/2019 at 11:32 AM, bijoux said:

But you know the weirdest part in this? Margaret's lady in waiting or whatever. She tries to convince Margaret to live a separate life from Tony and is throwing dudes at her, then she's shocked, just shocked at her hooking up with Roddy. Which, okay, yes, might be explained away by her finding the lack of discretion objetionable. But she's telling this to her husband while holding a book and being fully dressed during what was supposed to be a weekend of orgies from what I gathered before hand. 🤷‍♀️

That was so weird to me as well. She invites Margaret SPECIFICALLY for the escape, is throwing men at her right left and center while there, then suddenly has a crisis of conscience, clutching her pearls, when Roddy visibly enters Margaret's bedroom. I mean, what the hell did she think was gonna happen? Grr.

On 11/27/2019 at 12:23 PM, Ohiopirate02 said:

One thing that struck me in this episode was that Tony had zero intentions of divorcing Margaret for The Thing.  He was not going to give up on his cushy lifestyle as the brother-in-law to the queen.  He was going to continue to see Lucy, take her down to his country house, take her abroad, but not marry her, while leaving nasty notes for Margaret to find.  His words to Lucy were "she's not going to divorce me."  Margaret really forced his hand on this one.  

Margaret reading those notes from him (on the train, tucked in her book for her to find), and later aloud, broke my damn heart. They were so cruel! So, so cruel! And this was what he left for her while openly blatantly going off to screw the pretty young thing of the moment. At that moment I became 100% Team Margaret. What a terrible person Tony was.

On 11/27/2019 at 1:10 PM, Constantinople said:

To paraphrase Barbara Mandrell, Princess Margaret was cougar before cougar was cool

I hate the term "cougar." To me it's a misogynistic eyebrow-raise that, why yes, women over 35 have sex drives (and sex). We have no similar term for men, because men are never, ever judged for that. (sorry for the soapbox)

On 11/28/2019 at 11:30 AM, dubbel zout said:

I loved the scene in the bedroom with Elizabeth and Margaret after M's overdose. I teared up, to my surprise. I think no matter how frustrated and aggravated Elizabeth was with Margaret, her sister really was the only person who understood her. And they each knew it.

Elizabeth's Jubilee outfit was pretty hideous. That hat! Purple tampons dangling from it!

That scene made me a little resentful. There was room for more of that kind of nuance previously this season so many times and we only got it now. My sister is one of the most important people in my life, so it did tear me up as well.

Am I crazy for thinking Elizabeth's little dangly-flowered hat was adorable? I loved it! It was whimsical and sweet.

On 11/29/2019 at 4:35 PM, Alexander Pope said:

Did anyone else note how verbally abusive Tony was to her?  those sadistic notes filled with insults, my favorite of which was "you look like a Jewish manicurist"?  I get that they had a love/hate relationship and got off on fighting and making out after, but still, that made me sympathize with him a hell of a lot less.  That definitely took its toll.

Oh, see above. Those fricking notes made me 1000% Team Margaret. Who does that? Who leaves toxic, insulting notes around just so they can insult you even when they aren't there (and when they themselves are off blatantly having affairs and throwing them in your face)? Ugh. And let's all note that they revealed Tony was not just emotionally abusive, but a racist as well. Gah.

On 12/1/2019 at 8:38 AM, Umbelina said:

Anyway, among other things she insulted several diplomats, a general who asked her if she wanted to dance was told "Yes, but not with YOU!" She was a nasty, jealous piece of work.  Elizabeth ordered her to write apologies to at least a dozen people she was rude to, WHILE standing in for the Queen, which presumably would make that her "BEST behavior."

We've also seen her endlessly rude to servants.

I was Team Margaret here, but I was also flabbergasted by her open rudeness repeatedly throughout the episode. Servants openly waved aside and insulted. Her open contempt for "everyday people" she encountered, from the people in the shop to the workers at the island getaway. Her complete disregard of any work she caused others, and lack of thanks when they did that work. The way she was furious when anyone treated her like a real person for even a moment (as Roddy did a few times). I sympathized with her here because HBC made me do so (and the awful script), but I still don't like Margaret. What a seriously awful person.

Edited December 11, 2019 by paramitch
Edited to clarify one phrase about Tony

[dubbel zout]

1 hour ago, paramitch said:

That was so weird to me as well. She invites Margaret SPECIFICALLY for the escape, is throwing men at her right left and center while there, then suddenly has a crisis of conscience, clutching her pearls, when Roddy visibly enters Margaret's bedroom. I mean, what the hell did she think was gonna happen? Grr.

I think she expected Margaret to find someone who was more their crowd.Llewellyn might have been a baronet's son, but that's the lowest level of the aristocracy. He was also a gardener (gasp! manual labor!) and probably the biggest issue, 18 years younger than Margaret. 

[Ohiopirate02]

33 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

I think she expected Margaret to find someone who was more their crowd.Llewellyn might have been a baronet's son, but that's the lowest level of the aristocracy. He was also a gardener (gasp! manual labor!) and probably the biggest issue, 18 years younger than Margaret. 

1 hour ago, paramitch said:

That was so weird to me as well. She invites Margaret SPECIFICALLY for the escape, is throwing men at her right left and center while there, then suddenly has a crisis of conscience, clutching her pearls, when Roddy visibly enters Margaret's bedroom. I mean, what the hell did she think was gonna happen? Grr.

I got the impression that Lady Anne wasn't clutching her pearls at Margaret and Roddy hooking up, just that they were not being discreet about it.  The double standard rearing its ugly head and it was even worse for Margaret.  Tony could make out with his lover on the streets of London and would suffer no consequence if a tabloid printed pictures.  Anne cares for Margaret and does not want to see her friend get hurt if the story broke.  The way Margaret behaved with Roddy in the shop getting him a bathing suit was not subtle at all.  Also, I think Anne was afraid about how Elizabeth would react if the story broke.  She could potentially be blamed for hosting the party and setting Margaret and Roddy up.  Fortunately for Anne, Elizabeth had no problem with the affair as a sister.  

[Umbelina]

@paramitch

I love your entire post and agree with all of it.  I was going to quote parts of it, but then realized I'd have to quote every word just to say "EXACTLY!" with a few "and...."

I think this season was a huge miscalculation on Peter Morgan's part though.  It's left a bad taste for me, not just this episode, but the season in it's entirety has turned me off.  More about this in the season 3 thread though. 

[paramitch]

Quote

I love your entire post and agree with all of it.  I was going to quote parts of it, but then realized I'd have to quote every word just to say "EXACTLY!" with a few "and...."

@Umbelina, thank you so much! You totally just made my day.

Meanwhile, just a further note on this episode as far as historical veracity. Margaret was in fact involved with Roddy for over 8 years (versus 8 days), and in fact the relationship was so supported that the Queen and others openly thanked him for making her so happy.

Here's the piece in Vanity Fair:

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/11/princess-margaret-roddy-llewellyn-affair-true-story-the-crown

This further upsets me as far as this season. Roddy was involved with Margaret for EIGHT YEARS. It was not a weeklong fling. Gah.

[Blakeston]

11 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

The double standard rearing its ugly head and it was even worse for Margaret.  Tony could make out with his lover on the streets of London and would suffer no consequence if a tabloid printed pictures. 

I got the impression from this episode that Tony was being significantly more discreet about it than Margaret was. And that part of the reason the royal family looked the other way was because he didn't do his philandering in places where photos could be taken.

[Crs97]

On 11/25/2019 at 9:59 AM, benteen said:

Then Tony's laughable indignation over Margaret having an affair....

That actually rang true to me.  Ridiculous, but very likely that Tony thinks it is fine to cheat, but a complete betrayal to be cheated on.  I was surprised Roddy just left Margaret to her own devices once Tony became physical with her.  Tony was downright scary.

The birthday dinner scene was painful with everyone talking up Tony after she explains he skipped her birthday to be with his mistress.  Phillip yelling after her that they like Tony better was unacceptable; he should have winced from the kick to the shin Elizabeth gave him or at least have gotten a withering stare.  Each time they show Phillip, he becomes more wretched to me.

[Ohiopirate02]

10 hours ago, Blakeston said:

I got the impression from this episode that Tony was being significantly more discreet about it than Margaret was. And that part of the reason the royal family looked the other way was because he didn't do his philandering in places where photos could be taken.

I did not get that impression at all.  Tony picked up Lucy in his convertible and kissed her without even realizing his wife's close friend was on the sidewalk.  He might not have been taking her out on the town in London, but he was not make that much of an effort to hide his relationship with Lucy.  I wish the show would have also brought up Tony's other affairs before Lucy or his other mistress Ann Hills.  

[Blakeston]

7 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I did not get that impression at all.  Tony picked up Lucy in his convertible and kissed her without even realizing his wife's close friend was on the sidewalk.  He might not have been taking her out on the town in London, but he was not make that much of an effort to hide his relationship with Lucy.  I wish the show would have also brought up Tony's other affairs before Lucy or his other mistress Ann Hills.  

i think that was the difference, though - because he wasn't the sibling of the queen, he could drive around without anyone noticing. But Margaret going into shops and getting on planes caused a big stir, and attracted the press.

If Tony and another woman had been photographed on the beach in the way that Margaret and Roddy were, I don't think the royal family would have put up with it for a moment.

[MamaMax]

On 12/11/2019 at 9:12 AM, paramitch said:

hat was so weird to me as well. She invites Margaret SPECIFICALLY for the escape, is throwing men at her right left and center while there, then suddenly has a crisis of conscience, clutching her pearls, when Roddy visibly enters Margaret's bedroom. I mean, what the hell did she think was gonna happen? Grr.

That they would be KINDA discreet?

[CousinAmy]

I finally finished watching the series last night and it left me win a question: at the end, when Elizabeth is in her coach, alone, it looks like Philip comes up to salute her, and then disappears into the guards on the left side of the screen. Literally disappears, as if he had been a ghost. 

Was that supposed to be her father, not Philip? Sort of an affirmation that she was making him proud? If it was Philip, where did he go?

[Roseanna]

On 12/13/2019 at 7:42 PM, MamaMax said:

That they would be KINDA discreet?

No doubt Margaret sincerely believed that being with her lover in a private Caribbean island she was discreet enough. Or was it common at that time that paparazis had long-distance lences?

Cf. Edward VIII who in 1936 sailed with Mrs Simpson (who wasn't even divorced yet) in the Mediterranian Sea. They didn't even try to hide their relationship, on the countrary: she touched him in when they landed. But that revealing photo wasn't published in Britain. 

[merylinkid]

On 12/7/2019 at 9:11 PM, Peace 47 said:

My biggest problem with the episode was what it was not, rather than what it was.  If this is the last time that we are going to see the Queen for 1 year, 2 years, whenever the next season comes out, then the final story of the season should have been about her as the main character.  It should have told a story that related to her journey this season, but it was pretty much all Margaret, all the time.

i did think that scene between Margaret and the Queen at the end was quite well-written and acted and was one of my favorites of the season.  The dialogue felt very believable, even the little touches like how HBC delivered the line “tired” when the Queen asked how Margaret felt, because yes, depression and a suicide attempt probably just left Margaret drained at that point.

This is how I felt too.   It was set in her Silver Jubilee year.   We got Tony designing memorabilia, with the Queen being surprised about it.   She would have known memorabilia was being made  and APPROVED Tony doing the designs.    Then we got her in that hideous pink outfit getting into the Gold State Carriage (seriously WHO WERE HER DRESSERS IN THE 1970S) for the procession and her speech.   That's it.

The focus of the episode was not the Queen, but her emo sister.   Margaret's divorce and affairs should have been fleeting mentioned.   Not get MORE attention that her own daughter's kidnapping and then marriage.   Definitely NOT more attention that the Queen reflecting on wearing the CROWN (oh my, what a title for a series right?) for 25 years.   

I seriously did not care about Margaret and Tony's relationship and their affairs.   Margaret only married him because he seemed fun and she thought her sister would be shocked.  Tony married her because when she wasn't being bitchy she was fun.   But you could see even with how Margaret treated Roddy, she could turn on a dime and bitch you out for breathing.   See it can be summed up on one paragraph, not a whole episode to play out.   

Honestly I remember the Silver Jubilee.   It was  A. BIG. DEAL.   There really should have been more about it.   

[CeeBeeGee]

`

On 12/11/2019 at 9:12 AM, paramitch said:

And that birthday dinner scene was agonizing, and so upsetting. Again, I dislike Margaret (she's a privileged ass, and I hate people who are unkind), but that whole scene was beyond the pale. Margaret was 100% right and they should have felt ashamed of themselves. It was horrible enough to make me question why I was watching this show, if THESE are the protagonists. (And OMG, how low has the Queen Mother fallen? I practically hear Evil Disney music now she's been so terrible this season. And here again.)

Oh, see above. Those fricking notes made me 1000% Team Mgaret. Who does that? Who leaves toxic, insulting notes around just so they can insult you even when they aren't there (and when they themselves are off blatantly having affairs and throwing them in your face)? Ugh. And let's all note that they revealed Tony was not just emotionally abusive, but a racist as well. Gah.

I despise Tony and always have. I can take Margaret's rudeness over his studied cruelty any day. Plus I despise his whole affected "I'm such a rebel, man" shtick while he accepts a title! And when they divorced he should've passed the title on to his son, Viscount Linley.

And what is up with the Queen Mother? She was almost as cruel as Tony at the birthday party. Over the past three seasons she hasn't exactly come off as Mother of the Year. 

[Cheezwiz]

1 hour ago, CeeBeeGee said:

And what is up with the Queen Mother? She was almost as cruel as Tony at the birthday party. Over the past three seasons she hasn't exactly come off as Mother of the Year. 

The portrayal of the Queen Mum has been very odd throughout the series. She was very popular in real-life, and unlike the show's portrayal, did not seem to have reservations about mixing with the "ordinaries" when occasions called for it. I do think she was a bit of cipher in real-life, so the show's writers are just making stuff up, and it doesn't always seem consistent from one season to the next.

[CeeBeeGee]

42 minutes ago, Cheezwiz said:

The portrayal of the Queen Mum has been very odd throughout the series. She was very popular in real-life, and unlike the show's portrayal, did not seem to have reservations about mixing with the "ordinaries" when occasions called for it. I do think she was a bit of cipher in real-life, so the show's writers are just making stuff up, and it doesn't always seem consistent from one season to the next.

Yes, I thought that too. The woman who famously refused to leave London during the Blitz maybe deserves a bit better!

[Milburn Stone]

On 1/19/2020 at 5:46 PM, Cheezwiz said:

The portrayal of the Queen Mum has been very odd throughout the series. She was very popular in real-life, and unlike the show's portrayal, did not seem to have reservations about mixing with the "ordinaries" when occasions called for it.

Funny you should mention this. We were looking through a photo book this morning of Elizabeth II's public appearances in which she was mingling with the "ordinaries," and the pictures show her taking such uncomplicated pleasure in it, you can't help but like her. She just seems nice. Now, I have no trouble believing she could have been two different people, one public and one private. But if so, I wish the show this season had depicted a little more of the "public, nice" queen. Not for balance. Just because it would have made her more interesting. A character who is able convincingly to create an entirely different impression of herself on demand is by definition interesting. We did see her relate to people in Aberfan, but the talent she possessed to make people love her over and over again really doesn't seem that it could co-exist with the overwhelmingly negative portrait we received. Or if it could, we were denied that fascinating contrast.

Edited January 24, 2020 by Milburn Stone

[Normades]

On 12/28/2019 at 8:30 AM, merylinkid said:

Honestly I remember the Silver Jubilee.   It was  A. BIG. DEAL.   There really should have been more about it. 

I do too, but part of me was secretly hoping for a rendition of "God Save the Queen" by the Sex Pistols.  

[Roseanna]

On 1/20/2020 at 1:46 AM, Cheezwiz said:

The portrayal of the Queen Mum has been very odd throughout the series. 

Yes. It has been told that irl she didn't like to interfere but thought that "unpleasant things" would just disappear or even shut her eyes from them. So she didn't send Peter Townsend away in time in order to save Margaret from a broken heart.

The series first described her a schemer who even as Dowager with no formal power Tommy Lascelles obeyed whereas her daughter as the monarch had to obey him even chosing her new private secretary. And in S3 she commanded Camilla off with Andrew's families to marry the couple off, although irl no such interference was necessary.  

[Deskisamess]

Finally watched the last 3 episodes of Season 3. What a huge disappointment. So many of this season's episodes has so much filler...slow slow scenes, music and no dialog, and too much OC with her frowning face. What a let down after the first 2 seasons.

QE looks so much happier in most pictures you can find from that time frame. I realize her public face would be somewhat different, but OC  looks much older and much heavier than QE looked during those years. Her take on the Q just pull me out of the show every time she is on camera. 

And TM seems to have taken a lesson from the actor who plays Albert in Victoria. That whispers deep voice...gah. 

The only episode that left any impression on me was the school disaster. The rest have been mostly forgettable.

[JudyObscure]

On 12/11/2019 at 9:12 AM, paramitch said:

And let's all note that they revealed Tony was not just emotionally abusive, but a racist as well.

Yes, I thought that was the most shocking part about his idea of an insult, and hers was to throw his bad leg and unloving mother in his face.  The two of them were awful people who deserved each other.  

On 1/19/2020 at 6:46 PM, Cheezwiz said:

The portrayal of the Queen Mum has been very odd throughout the series. She was very popular in real-life, and unlike the show's portrayal, did not seem to have reservations about mixing with the "ordinaries" when occasions called for it.

I kept thinking, what happened to the lovely soft eyed woman who almost fell in love with that nice gentleman  who owned the old castle?

Edited May 13, 2020 by JudyObscure
I just watched this one again and saw that the pink things hanging from the queens hat had all been shaped into bellss with tiny gold ringers inside that could be seen as the poet said "ring out the jubilee." It was supposed to be happy hat .

[Wordsworth]

On 12/12/2019 at 8:25 AM, Crs97 said:

Phillip yelling after her that they like Tony better was unacceptable; he should have winced from the kick to the shin Elizabeth gave him or at least have gotten a withering stare.  

And yet, Mr. Wordsworth and I giggled when I questioned the table, "Am I wrong?"

I wish we'd seen more of the Jubilee, too.  Troubled Marriage Sexytime is not our thing, but Margaret has been established as a major player in this show and you have to give HBC enough material to make her worth her paycheck.

[kaygeeret]

So I have been really conflicted by the entire Margaret/Tony depiction.

I get that each were angling for better press and sympathy in public.  What most of us forget is that marriages in the upper classes of most countries are made for monetary or power reasons - at least were.

So affairs were not only common but accepted.

Whatever thru the wrench into this one particular 'arrangement' I have no clue and the show certainly never made an effort to clear it up.

Perhaps Margaret's sense of power and pride  was offended?  Perhaps she no longer felt she had 'control' over Tony?

But affairs in the upper crust were common and accepted then and possibly still are.

 

Edited June 4, 2020 by kaygeeret

[Ohiopirate02]

13 hours ago, kaygeeret said:

So I have been really conflicted by the entire Margaret/Tony depiction.

I get that each were angling for better press and sympathy in public.  What most of us forget is that marriages in the upper classes of most countries are made for monetary or power reasons - at least were.

So affairs were not only common but accepted.

Whatever thru the wrench into this one particular 'arrangement' I have no clue and the show certainly never made an effort to clear it up.

Perhaps Margaret's sense of power and pride  was offended?  Perhaps she no longer felt she had 'control' over Tony?

But affairs in the upper crust were common and accepted then and possibly still are.

 

Margaret and Tony fought constantly behind closed doors.  But, Tony would turn on the charm when others were around.  I think the show gave enough hints to this.  Margaret was also not easy to live with, and her family was well aware of this.  He would leave nasty notes around their apartment for her to find.  Again this was shown.  But the final nail in the coffin was Tony being seen by Anne Glennconner out with his paramour in London, the pictures of Margaret and Roddy being released to the press by Anne's addict son, and the subsequent paparazzi pictures from Mustique.  The show does condense all of this to fit into the episode, but once both parties were seen cheating, the marriage was over.  Affairs were tolerated as long as the press didn't find out.  

[7isBlue]

On 12/11/2019 at 6:12 AM, paramitch said:

The worst part is that I adore Ben Daniels (I saw him play Valmont in NYC in Les Liaisons Dangereuses with Laura Linney and he was marvelous and had this completely different, playful take on the role). Daniels is amazing. And sings. But ugh, Tony's awful.

I just finished watching S3 and came here to say the same thing about Ben Daniels - he was my favorite thing about this season! Lucky you that you saw him on stage. He is excellent in this role and I wish he’d been nominated for an Emmy. (My first introduction to him was on the underrated FX series “The Exorcist.” Very well-written and worth a watch if you like supernatural stuff).

[Jeeves]

On 11/26/2019 at 9:20 AM, WatchrTina said:

I think part of the reason that the there is less focus on The Queen this season is that by this time she had settled into her role as queen and the "drama" in her life (and the situations that the show is going to focus on) frequently originated from other family members rather than the Queen's reaction to world events (the Aberfan episode being an exception).  Ergo, we see the focus on Charles growing into his new role as heir apparent, Philip's mid-life crisis, Margaret's ongoing soap-opera of a life, and even the saga of the Queen's mother-in-law.  It's a shame because I LOVE Olivia Coleman but I'm not really surprised that the show is pointing its lens at other members of the royal family more frequently this season. Given what we know is coming in royal history, I'm afraid the focus on the family (and not the queen) is likely to continue.

I watched S3 pretty quickly when it was first released and was disappointed. That was months ago, of course. So yesterday - in anticipation of S4's release tomorrow - I re-watched most of S3. Maybe all the time I've spent at home since March has rotted my brain, but I appreciated S3 much more on a second viewing. The quoted post up there ^^ makes sense to me. The role of ERII is so challenging because she doesn't wear her emotions on her sleeve and certainly maintains as neutral and pleasant as possible affect in public, which is where most people see her. And the family was definitely getting frisky all around her in the 60's and early 70's, while Britain was going through economic troubles ranging from doldrums to the brink of destruction. Sheesh.

Whoever took over the role from Foy to portray the middle aged years, was going to have an uphill slog. See above, re the guarded personality, and also, Foy was just brilliant playing the luminous young woman suddenly wearing the Crown so much sooner than she had expected. My first viewing of S3, all I seemed to notice about OC's ERII was her resting bitch face. This time around, much more of her performance registered with me. As has been mentioned upthread, in that episode where she took an uncharacteristically self-indulgent extended trip to the US all about horses, she turned on a dime. Wow. One minute she's wistfully confiding in Porchy that she'd be suited for a life in the horse world and wasn't suited to her life wearing the Crown, and the next she's being full-on Queen when summoned to the phone to be told that Uncle Dickie was potting a coup. One crisp sentence: I'll see to him, followed by quick action. Got that sorted, no scenery-chewing required. Just flew straight back to Buckingham Palace, and set Uncle Dickie straight. Done and dusted. Wowzer. The woman knew her powers and how to use them. 

The final S3 episode, the scene with Margaret, was touching.

On 11/28/2019 at 12:30 PM, dubbel zout said:

I wonder what the budget for sunglasses was for this episode! Margaret had some amazing ones. I especially loved the ones she wore up to the Glenconnors' estate. Those were fantastic.

I loved the scene in the bedroom with Elizabeth and Margaret after M's overdose. I teared up, to my surprise. I think no matter how frustrated and aggravated Elizabeth was with Margaret, her sister really was the only person who understood her. And they each knew it.

About the sunglasses - I agree. There is an iconic dual headshot photo I've seen, of Margaret and Tony, I think early in their marriage, wearing identical sunglasses. Her hair is covered by a very tailored cap. They look so cool. 

About Margaret. I prefer HBC to Vanessa whosit as Margaret. I've also re-watched some of S2 and sometimes I wondered how in hell someone as nuts as Margaret was portrayed in those seasons, was able to live any kind of life, even a very self-indulgent privileged life. She was a quivering mess, sometimes falling apart into tears, other times throwing tantrums, smashing up the dishes and furniture, and being rude to the servants. I can believe HBC as Margaret although IIRC in S3 some crockery-smashing continued, and yeah she was troubled and volatile. But no more of that shivering quivering stuff. And yes, I wouldn't have been disappointed if we saw less of Margaret's mess of a marriage during S2, and more storylines about others in the Crown's orbit. 

I'm glad I gave S3 another chance, and I'm so looking forward to S4. Tomorrow!

Edited November 15, 2020 by Jeeves

[Umbelina]

On 11/14/2020 at 6:00 PM, Jeeves said:

I watched S3 pretty quickly when it was first released and was disappointed. That was months ago, of course. So yesterday - in anticipation of S4's release tomorrow - I re-watched most of S3. Maybe all the time I've spent at home since March has rotted my brain, but I appreciated S3 much more on a second viewing.

ditto

Although I still hate how they edited anything out of Coleman's performance that showed inner feelings or emotion (other than horses of course.)  I said at the time, I doubt it was Coleman's performance that made me hate the Queen, but rather, the thin box the put her in during season 3.  All hateful and cold all the time.

Edited November 17, 2020 by Umbelina

[Growsonwalls]

Well I absolutely thought this was the strongest episode of Season 3. I thought Elizabeth and Margaret's relationship felt realer in one episode than it has the entire series. I enjoyed Elizabeth's scenes with Harold Wilson -- liked the respect and even affection there. This was one of the few episodes this season that didn;t make me dislike Elizabeth. 

I do wonder about the Queen Mum though. Was she really as loathsome as depicted in the series? I got the impression that she was probably frosty and snobby but in season 3 she seems actively cruel.

[Camera One]

I inwardly groaned when I realized the season finale was about Margaret.  Her selfishness annoyed me in Season 1-2, and she looks so different from the current actress that I can't reconcile the two characters are the same.  

Still, I did end up feeling sorry for her in this one.  Tony's hypocrisy was disgusting when he found out Margaret had an affair.  Not that I wanted more Margaret/Tony episodes, but like much on this show, the plot just jumped right into the aftermath of cheating with nothing in between.  They had hinted at Tony fathering some baby near the end of Season 2 and Elizabeth withholding information, but that led nowhere.  What's the point of building stuff up when there is no follow-up?

I did enjoy this episode more because it was the first episode this season where Elizabeth felt like a human being with feelings like the younger version of her character, and the plot didn't make her look incompetent or bad for once.

I still don't get why we didn't get something like this in the first few episodes to establish her older self.  You could actually tell she cared about Margaret, much like Younger Elizabeth did.  Instead, we got a season premiere where Elizabeth foolishly thought the new Prime Minister was a spy followed immediately by jumping to Margaret so Elizabeth looked like a jealous witch, followed by an episode where Elizabeth seemed like a heartless person who didn't care about a tragedy followed by centrics for everyone but the kitchen sink, and then we end on Margaret.  This season has been a disappointment, though it was still watchable.  I agree that in general, it was the "new" characters like Anne and Charles that actually worked best.

Prime Minister Wilson was one of the better characters this season, but this warm goodbye with Elizabeth wasn't earned because she spent the entire season staring coldly and/or blankly at him while he talked.

I think the best part was the montage with everyone reading the newspaper.  I really hate paparazzi, despite the personality defects of Margaret.

Edited January 29, 2021 by Camera One

[Macbeth]

On 12/11/2019 at 9:12 AM, paramitch said:

As with most of this season, I thought this was tremendously entertaining, but also kind of a strange misfire. And as always with Peter Morgan, I think his sympathies are tiresomely, consistently, not-so-secretly focused on all the MANPAIN!

I mean (eyeroll) Oh, poor Tony! The pain when he actually realizes Margaret finally cheated on him! "She's my wife," he says to the woman he's been openly cheating with, and you can hear the bars of Margaret's cage clanging. So fucking gross.

Classic Madonna/Whore complex: It didn't matter that he screwed everything he could for years -- the moment she finally steps out and says "enough" and grabs some happiness, we get huge scenes devoted to his poor hurt little ego (and worst of all, other scenes in which the royal family actively enables him). Those scenes made me sick, and I don't even LIKE Margaret all that much. Sigh.

The worst part is that I adore Ben Daniels (I saw him play Valmont in NYC in Les Liaisons Dangereuses with Laura Linney and he was marvelous and had this completely different, playful take on the role). Daniels is amazing. And sings. But ugh, Tony's awful.

And that birthday dinner scene was agonizing, and so upsetting. Again, I dislike Margaret (she's a privileged ass, and I hate people who are unkind), but that whole scene was beyond the pale. Margaret was 100% right and they should have felt ashamed of themselves. It was horrible enough to make me question why I was watching this show, if THESE are the protagonists. (And OMG, how low has the Queen Mother fallen? I practically hear Evil Disney music now she's been so terrible this season. And here again.)

 

So much this.  I am so over the manpain.  Tony was cheating on her for years.  She has one affair and he is upset?  It's sexist that they show photos of her cheating and not him.  If he was the royal and she was the in law - they still would have gone after her.  Men cheating was to be expected.

I always give Margaret the benefit of the doubt.  She has said where one sister, the Queen, has to be good, there is no choice but the other sister has to be bad.  So I really don't know how many of the stories about her are accurate.  She was an alcoholic with a barbed tongue....

[ombelico]

One aspect I found disappointing about the ending of the episode, which stops with Elizabeth in the carriage, is that there's no acknowledgement that in the end, the Silver Jubilee was a success. We got the discussion with Margaret where she talked about how apprehensive she was to be having a Jubilee, but then we don't get to see her receive the celebratory reassurance that the public appreciated her.

On 12/11/2019 at 8:12 AM, paramitch said:

Am I crazy for thinking Elizabeth's little dangly-flowered hat was adorable? I loved it! It was whimsical and sweet.

I appreciate the attention to detail and ability of the costumers to provide clothes that are extremely close to what the Queen and others wore IRL, but sometimes, as with this hat, I think it backfired and emphasized why Olivia Colman (amazing as she is) was a bit miscast in the role (and/or was misdirected in her portrayal).

OC has one of those faces that easily appears much older, particularly with certain hair and makeup. Even though by the time of the end of the season (in 1977) Elizabeth was a few years older than OC was at the time of filming this season, OC's appearance this season has consistently appeared older than Elizabeth did in the same time frame. Therefore, when we see OC wearing this cute, whimsical hat, it just doesn't appear like something that Elizabeth-as-portrayed-by-OC would choose.