S03.E10: Cri de Coeur

[sark1624]

1 hour ago, Kfir said:

I think the PM's come down to personality. Wilson seemed like a gentle kind of man whereas Heath from the outset was rougher. Their upbringings say it all. Wilson came from a political family so would have been well educated in how to deal with people. Heath was lower working class so had a more straight forward nature about him. 

Wilson and Heath childhood were very similar, in fact, the conservatives elected Heath as a response to Wilson succes, he was the first lower middle class man to lead the conservatives. Both were raised in very humble enviroments, both were brilliant in university; but the main difference was in their character, Wilson had more chemistry with people (tha thelped him to lead a party so complicated as labour was in that time and being witty during elections). 

[Quilt Fairy]

2 hours ago, Kfir said:

The scenes where the servants are holding the basin's for them while they brush their teeth and even spit! The scene where Phil has the servant change the channel! How grossly obscene is that, sure it gives this poor slob a job but it is so denigrating

Those 2 scenes stand out in my mind as well.

I used to work for Quaker Oats, which owned Gatorade, and one time we had Michael Jordan speak at some kind of rally they were holding.  There were hundreds of people between me and him, but it was kind of neat to be that close to him.   I assume having a royal visit your factory is similar.  Except I didn't have to curtsy to Michael Jordan. 

[GaT]

Well, 1/4 of this episode was Margaret & her boy toy Roddy having happy times together. Not something I had any interest in seeing or hearing about, it was boring. And that's pretty much the word for how I feel about this season, bored. Except for Anne, (who I love) what a disappointment this season was compared to 1 & 2, I hope 4 is much, much better (and has more Anne).

[Sir RaiderDuck OMS]

I couldn't believe Roddy calling Margaret "darling" and her immediately saying "Don't you ever call me that in public." Then again, when Antony started attacking Margaret, he didn't defend her in any way.

Just a messed-up situation.

[Hoi Polloi]

This whole series was filmed way too dark. There were so many scenes where I could not make out the people because the lighting was nonexistent. 

[Umbelina]

11 minutes ago, Hoi Polloi said:

This whole series was filmed way too dark. There were so many scenes where I could not make out the people because the lighting was nonexistent. 

I was watching season one and two, in those it's always like there is smoke in the rooms, or fog, even in the non fog episodes.  It's odd.

I didn't know Margaret attempted suicide, was that public knowledge?  

[Sir RaiderDuck OMS]

Are Mrs. RaiderDuck and I the only ones who saw those dangly bits on Elizabeth's hat and thought they were purple marshmallows?

[benteen]

Quote

I feel like this season was more of a placeholder?  I dunno - it kinda felt a bit fragmented and lacked the cohesion of previous seasons.  Maybe that's because there are so many new characters to focus on.

Yeah, I felt like this season was more of a set-up for Season 4, where some really big stuff will be happening.  Don't get me wrong, I very much enjoyed Season 3 and was sorry when it was over.  It was a very good season although the previous two were better.

I really wish the last episode didn't spend so much time on Margaret's marriage.  I found much of the Margaret stuff to be dull in this episode.  The pearl-clutching over her conduct made me laugh though.  Tony marries into the family, is given a title, cheats on her regularly and nobody bats an eye.  Don't get me wrong, Margaret is no bargain to deal with but he knew what he was getting himself into.  He married into that family and decided to play fast and loose with everything and the image-conscience family doesn't bat an eyelid about it?

Then Tony's laughable indignation over Margaret having an affair....

The scene with Elizabeth and Margaret at the end was excellent though.

The best scene was again between Elizabeth and Harold Wilson.  I'll miss Jason Watkins on this show as he was great.  He was the first prime minister she invited for dinner since Churchill.

Though I found myself annoyed again with how fast and loose they were playing with the timeline.  Sometimes it's 1974, then it's 1976, then it's 1977.  What I mean is, they make it seem like Wilson resigned immediately after becoming prime minister in 1974 but he stayed on for another two-plus years.  Him having Alzheimer's was rumored though I can see why the show went with it.

LOL on Elizabeth not recognizing his successor, James Callaghan.  That's doesn't exactly bode well.

The actors playing Charles and Anne were excellent additions to the show and that bodes well for future seasons.  Very much enjoyed Olivia Colman and Tobias Menzies was great.  Thrilled that Charles Dance joined the cast.

[kwnyc]

Quote

Yes, but she only met him because she WAS a royal, she was never "ordinary" and probably would have detested it.

Perhaps she was thinking more along the lines of if her parents had managed to have a boy, She would have been the Princess Anne, and it is a role that would have suited her.

[Roseanna]

Elizabeth's view that when she became the Queen, everything in the coutry was OK, is hilariously wrong.

In S1 it was clearly said that the economy was just as bad as after the WW2, but despite the urgings of his Cabinet, Churchill couldn't care less - he was only interested in the foreign policy and "teaching" the US for its role, 

Born in the (seemingly) zenit of the Bristih empire (although Kipling warned of its decline), Churchill also created a concept of the new Elizabethan age that had no equivalency in reality.

[pasdetrois]

Quote

Olivia Colman needs more script...her Queen is just reacting to Prince Phillip(convincing lip locks that the Queen and Duke like each other), Margaret, Charles and the various PMs.

Exactly. It has been weird. The series should be re-titled "The Crown (but not really)." Whether one believes in monarchies or not, Elizabeth has been a steadfast hard worker for her entire adult life. I'm more interested in how she ruled, more of the challenges she faced, more of her personal life than the snippets we've seen.

Edited November 28, 2019 by pasdetrois

[WatchrTina]

I think part of the reason that the there is less focus on The Queen this season is that by this time she had settled into her role as queen and the "drama" in her life (and the situations that the show is going to focus on) frequently originated from other family members rather than the Queen's reaction to world events (the Aberfan episode being an exception).  Ergo, we see the focus on Charles growing into his new role as heir apparent, Philip's mid-life crisis, Margaret's ongoing soap-opera of a life, and even the saga of the Queen's mother-in-law.  It's a shame because I LOVE Olivia Coleman but I'm not really surprised that the show is pointing its lens at other members of the royal family more frequently this season. Given what we know is coming in royal history, I'm afraid the focus on the family (and not the queen) is likely to continue.

[jnymph]

On ‎11‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 4:29 AM, GaT said:

Well, 1/4 of this episode was Margaret & her boy toy Roddy having happy times together. Not something I had any interest in seeing or hearing about, it was boring. And that's pretty much the word for how I feel about this season, bored. Except for Anne, (who I love) what a disappointment this season was compared to 1 & 2, I hope 4 is much, much better (and has more Anne).

I'm pretty much agreeing with you here.   The only difference is I'd add Princess Alice to the mix; whom I found fascinating.  But of course, since she's of advanced age at this point in the story so we had precious limited time with her. 

Other than that, I just found it really hard to care about Margaret, Charles, Camilla and even the political storyline.   

Season 3 was fairly disappointing for me.   

[terrymct]

On 11/18/2019 at 6:03 AM, andromeda331 said:

I completely sided with Margaret at her birthday dinner. She tells her family that her husband cheated on her. And they react by talking about his good qualities? Really? What the hell was that? I don't like Margaret either but that was terrible.  They couldn't give her any sympathy? Any kind words or something? But when she's the one who cheated suddenly there's outrage?

I liked the husband pointed out that Roddy was a younger Tony. Her vacation or island was fun. 

I kind of saw both sides.  Yes, absolutely they should side with her...but she was asking them to plot against him actively AND they'd certainly seen her behavior over the years and his.  

[Constantinople]

2 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

I think part of the reason that the there is less focus on The Queen this season is that by this time she had settled into her role as queen and the "drama" in her life (and the situations that the show is going to focus on) frequently originated from other family members rather than the Queen's reaction to world events (the Aberfan episode being an exception).

Good point. I just realized that Charles and Anne are now older at the end of Season 3 than Elizabeth was at the start of Season 1.

[Conotocarious]

6 hours ago, pasdetrois said:

Exactly. It has been weird. The series should be re-titled "The Crown (but not really." Whether one believes in monarchies or not, Elizabeth has been a steadfast hard worker for her entire adult life. I'm more interested in how she ruled, more of the challenges she faced, more of her personal life than the snippets we've seen.

A show about a steadfast, hard worker sounds pretty boring to me. Especially when she insists on stoicism at all costs. That’s just not terribly interesting to watch. But the antics of the other Royals are much more generally entertaining.

[bijoux]

So, at the end of this season, I'm very much pro Anne and Wilson, and very sad that princess Alice didn't get more screen time. Everything else is pretty much meh to me. Wilson is such a good egg, I'm gonna miss him next season. He had a very calming presence. 

Jesus on a stick, that whole mess with Margaret and Tony just kept getting worse and worse. The only smart step in the whole ordeal was Roddy hightailing out of there. Oh, congrats, Tony, you won, you prat. She tried to kill herself and you decide to marry your young mistress after being hypocrytical and obnoxious about it before. Funny how someone caught how Roddy was a younger version of Tony. There were obvious similarities between Margaret and the Thing. Which is an awful thing to say, but did make me laugh. 

But you know the weirdest part in this? Margaret's lady in waiting or whatever. She tries to convince Margaret to live a separate life from Tony and is throwing dudes at her, then she's shocked, just shocked at her hooking up with Roddy. Which, okay, yes, might be explained away by her finding the lack of discretion objetionable. But she's telling this to her husband while holding a book and being fully dressed during what was supposed to be a weekend of orgies from what I gathered before hand. 🤷‍♀️

[Ohiopirate02]

42 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Jesus on a stick, that whole mess with Margaret and Tony just kept getting worse and worse. The only smart step in the whole ordeal was Roddy hightailing out of there. Oh, congrats, Tony, you won, you prat. She tried to kill herself and you decide to marry your young mistress after being hypocrytical and obnoxious about it before. Funny how someone caught how Roddy was a younger version of Tony. There were obvious similarities between Margaret and the Thing. Which is an awful thing to say, but did make me laugh. 

One thing that struck me in this episode was that Tony had zero intentions of divorcing Margaret for The Thing.  He was not going to give up on his cushy lifestyle as the brother-in-law to the queen.  He was going to continue to see Lucy, take her down to his country house, take her abroad, but not marry her, while leaving nasty notes for Margaret to find.  His words to Lucy were "she's not going to divorce me."  Margaret really forced his hand on this one.  

[Constantinople]

To paraphrase Barbara Mandrell, Princess Margaret was cougar before cougar was cool

[Magnumfangirl]

Is this the "Margaret Show" or the "Queen Show"?  I don't hate Margot, but I didn't need a whole episode about her lurve quadrangle where some scenes felt like a Tim Burton movie.  The Queen should have been the focus of the last episode of the season, but I did love Margaret's pep talk for her sis.  The Empire may have fallen apart, but the Queen's stability probably kept the country from falling apart.

Neither Heath nor Wilson seemed particularly likeable to me because both lacked charisma.  I think Liz's love of her dogs overrode impartiality.  Besides, she didn't seem too crazy about Wilson during "Coup." 😉

I griped at the the end of season 2 that they were all turning into a bunch of sad sacks and that's still true, but it's such a juicy soap opera I'll keep watching.  I do wish we could have gotten more of Charles' story (his Navy career, other girls, etc).  The show seems to think that stuff's not important, but nobody had any idea that he would still be the heir instead of the sovereign 40 years later.  Bring on season 4, I'm anxious to see QEII interact with Reagan and Thatcher!  

[dubbel zout]

I wonder what the budget for sunglasses was for this episode! Margaret had some amazing ones. I especially loved the ones she wore up to the Glenconnors' estate. Those were fantastic.

I loved the scene in the bedroom with Elizabeth and Margaret after M's overdose. I teared up, to my surprise. I think no matter how frustrated and aggravated Elizabeth was with Margaret, her sister really was the only person who understood her. And they each knew it.

Elizabeth's Jubilee outfit was pretty hideous. That hat! Purple tampons dangling from it!

[Magnumfangirl]

9 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Elizabeth's Jubilee outfit was pretty hideous.

Yes it was, but I loved the gown she wore to Margaret's birthday party.  The one in the show was darker colors, but this may be the real dress it was based on  https://www.rct.uk/collection/themes/exhibitions/fashioning-a-reign/windsor-castle/evening-gown-0

[Alexander Pope]

On 11/26/2019 at 10:25 AM, terrymct said:

I kind of saw both sides.  Yes, absolutely they should side with her...but she was asking them to plot against him actively AND they'd certainly seen her behavior over the years and his.  

Did anyone else note how verbally abusive Tony was to her?  those sadistic notes filled with insults, my favorite of which was "you look like a Jewish manicurist"?  I get that they had a love/hate relationship and got off on fighting and making out after, but still, that made me sympathize with him a hell of a lot less.  That definitely took its toll.

Edited November 30, 2019 by Alexander Pope
edited for spelling

[Roseanna]

On 11/28/2019 at 7:06 AM, Magnumfangirl said:

Is this the "Margaret Show" or the "Queen Show"?  I don't hate Margot, but I didn't need a whole episode about her lurve quadrangle where some scenes felt like a Tim Burton movie.  The Queen should have been the focus of the last episode of the season, but I did love Margaret's pep talk for her sis.  The Empire may have fallen apart, but the Queen's stability probably kept the country from falling apart. 

I understand that some people don't like how much space is given to Margaret as well as Philip - even bored by it. But I suppose that it's necessary as the writer wants to show their development. And remember, we are shown only one affair from Margaret and Tony when irl they had many.

Instead, Elizabeth remains pretty much the same in S3 after she has identified as her role as Queen in S1 and had got her marriage work in the changed circumstances in S2. But as a monarch, family problems - whether those of her husband, her sister or her children - ultimately become her problems, too, at least because of the media whose articles influence so much on the image of the royal family

[Roseanna]

9 hours ago, Alexander Pope said:

Did anyone else note how verbally abusive Tony was to her?  those sadistic notes filled with insults, my favorite of which was "you look like a Jewish manicurist"?  I get that they had a love/hate relationship and got off on fighting and making out after, but still, that made me sympathize with him a hell of a lot less.  That definitely took its toll.

Margaret could also insult Tony, at least verbally. They know each others's weak points.

However, how much Tony dallied, he had his career and he was good at it. And he could live in a cottage just like anybody else. Instead, Margaret wasn't free from the public eyes even on a holiday in a Caribbean Island.  

[PeterPirate]

I'm on Team Margaret now that I've had a little time to digest season 3.  Peter Townsend remained married to the same woman for 36 years, but unfortunately not to Margaret Windsor.  What a shame the monarchy had to go and ruin a perfectly nice girl.  

Edited November 30, 2019 by PeterPirate

[Umbelina]

I've heard Margaret called many things, but "nice" has never been one of those things.

[PeterPirate]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I've heard Margaret called many things, but "nice" has never been one of those things.

That's because they didn't let her marry Peter Townsend.  

[Umbelina]

49 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

That's because they didn't let her marry Peter Townsend.  

I doubt it, she was reportedly always full of herself, even as a child, possibly not quite so rude and mean as she became after her father died.  He might have been able to keep her in line, but that seems a longshot.

Edited December 1, 2019 by Umbelina

[BradandJanet]

On 11/29/2019 at 7:35 PM, Alexander Pope said:

Did anyone else note how verbally abusive Tony was to her?  those sadistic notes filled with insults, my favorite of which was "you look like a Jewish manicurist"?  I get that they had a love/hate relationship and got off on fighting and making out after, but still, that made me sympathize with him a hell of a lot less.  That definitely took its toll.

They reminded me of Richard Burton and Elizabeth Taylor in and out of Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? 

[PeterPirate]

5 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I doubt it, she was reportedly always full of herself, even as a child, possibly not quite so rude and mean as she became after her father died.  He might have been able to keep her in line, but that seems a longshot.

Well, they haven't shown that side of Margaret on the show, at least not when played by Vanessa Kirby or Beau Gadsdon.  

[Roseanna]

7 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I doubt it, she was reportedly always full of herself, even as a child, possibly not quite so rude and mean as she became after her father died.  He might have been able to keep her in line, but that seems a longshot.

2 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

Well, they haven't shown that side of Margaret on the show, at least not when played by Vanessa Kirby or Beau Gadsdon.  

It's true that Margaret's mean and rude behavior even towards her friends wasn't shown as S1-2 focused on her relationship with Peter Townsend and Tony.

But already 1S Margaret was shown to be extremely selfish. She wanted to be with Townsend at Christmas, although he was a husband and father. Well, she was in love with him, so she didn't care for his wife but actively wanted to separate them. But she didn't think or care a bit what kind of man abandons his kids at Christmas, on the top of all after being separated from them because of constant Court service. 

[PeterPirate]

2 hours ago, Roseanna said:

It's true that Margaret's mean and rude behavior even towards her friends wasn't shown as S1-2 focused on her relationship with Peter Townsend and Tony.

But already 1S Margaret was shown to be extremely selfish. She wanted to be with Townsend at Christmas, although he was a husband and father. Well, she was in love with him, so she didn't care for his wife but actively wanted to separate them. But she didn't think or care a bit what kind of man abandons his kids at Christmas, on the top of all after being separated from them because of constant Court service. 

Maybe they will show Margaret acting badly in a flashback.  But it doesn't matter.  Margaret was a nice 12yo girl when she got whupped upside the head by The Mustache (at her sister's behest, imo).  That was the moment that put her on the path towards oblivion.  It changes the way I watch Margaret even in the first two seasons.    

Edited December 1, 2019 by PeterPirate

[Roseanna]

24 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

Maybe they will show Margaret acting badly in a flashback.  But it doesn't matter.  Margaret was a nice 12yo girl when she got whupped upside the head by The Mustache (at her sister's behest, imo).  That was the moment that put her on the path towards oblivion.  It changes the way I watch Margaret even in the first two seasons.    

Many a young girl has crush but eventually she grows up and find someone more suitable than an older married man.

As a child Margaret was spoiled by his father in compensation that she was the spare as he had been. And her mother shut her eyes and didn't send Townsend away before the romance became serious. (The Queen Mother's act to separate Charles from Camilla is completely oit of character - she was famous for her habit not to see unpleasant things.) 

Margaret was born in certain circumstances and time that limited her life, but so are almost all. Most of them survive from much worse and still make so good a life to themselves and their loved ones they possibly can by refusing to feel bitterness towards others and taking responsiblity for their own actions and choices.

[PeterPirate]

7 hours ago, Roseanna said:

As a child Margaret was spoiled by his father in compensation that she was the spare as he had been. And her mother shut her eyes and didn't send Townsend away before the romance became serious. (The Queen Mother's act to separate Charles from Camilla is completely oit of character - she was famous for her habit not to see unpleasant things.) 

Yes, but again, that is information that is not presented in this TV show.  The fact that this show is "based on real-life events" doesn't alter the fact that it is telling stories.  

I've made this point before.  Just as there is the duality of "the efficient and the dignified", there is also what I call "the intellectual and the visceral".  I like getting the backstory on some of these episodes as much as anyone.  But there are also times want to put reality aside and allow myself to be subsumed by the TV drama.  

And that takes me to this post from Coup:

On 11/30/2019 at 7:07 AM, merylinkid said:

She might have loved to just raise horses as her life.   But when Wilson called, she knew what she had to do.   There was no hesitation "Leave him to me."   You almost felt sorry for Dickie knowing what was coming.   Almost.      This wasn't just her duty, this was full on Windsor "protect the family so we can keep our thrones" mode.    She was utterly ruthless without making a single threat or raising her voice.   Just laid it out how he was being an idiot and it was to stop IMMEDIATELY.

And in my particular interpretation, Elizabeth, at 16, did this to her own sister at 12.  Did this happen in real life?  Of course not.  But I love the idea of being able to watch this show--especially the earlier episodes--with that thought in mind.  

Edited December 1, 2019 by PeterPirate
Add "not"

[Umbelina]

9 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

Well, they haven't shown that side of Margaret on the show, at least not when played by Vanessa Kirby or Beau Gadsdon.  

Margaret had to apologize to dozens of people after she took over for Elizabeth when Elizabeth was in Australia on the tour.  It was shown on The Crown.

Sorry, for some reason my computer has decided to "center" my typing.

Anyway, among other things she insulted several diplomats, a general who asked her if she wanted to dance was told "Yes, but not with YOU!" She was a nasty, jealous piece of work.  Elizabeth ordered her to write apologies to at least a dozen people she was rude to, WHILE standing in for the Queen, which presumably would make that her "BEST behavior."

We've also seen her endlessly rude to servants.

Edited December 1, 2019 by Umbelina

[Blakeston]

On 11/25/2019 at 2:47 PM, kwnyc said:

Perhaps she was thinking more along the lines of if her parents had managed to have a boy, She would have been the Princess Anne, and it is a role that would have suited her.

I think Elizabeth was thinking, "This is the life I could have had if Uncle David had done his duty, and remained king, and produced heirs like everyone expected him to."

5 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

Maybe they will show Margaret acting badly in a flashback.  But it doesn't matter.  Margaret was a nice 12yo girl when she got whupped upside the head by The Mustache (at her sister's behest, imo).  That was the moment that put her on the path towards oblivion.  It changes the way I watch Margaret even in the first two seasons.    

That flashback didn't make me feel any sympathy for Margaret. Even as a 12/13-year-old, it should have been clear to her that all of the historical rules about royal lineage couldn't just be set aside because she felt like being queen.

As an adult, she'd already grown tired of Peter when she made her choice to keep her title rather than marry him. I don't think a stable relationship with him could have made her happy. She found stable relationships to be boring.

[Capricasix]

(Umbelina, I don’t think it was your computer - I‘m on my phone and I noticed the same thing, and I wondered what I’d done 😄 I think it was a forum glitch; it seems to be fixed now.)

[MamaMax]

On 11/23/2019 at 3:46 PM, Kfir said:

Yes, that was my point really. Working class people can't afford much navel gazing. We have to get on with it or risk losing what little we may have. 

I suppose that is my problem. I don't see a great deal of value in their work. He visits a factory makes a speech. I see the same kind of crap at my work where the bosses make speeches that are empty, shake hands etc They don't realize they are being counter productive a lot of the time because we don't believe them and they do the opposite of what they say in the end! 

I think Phil wants more but I don't know if he was King or had never married the Queen if he would have achieved what he wanted anyway. I think he likes to blame that but it's just an excuse/easy thing to blame.

I think this is kind of the point. They are really showing their asses and steering themselves right out of the job. 

2 hours ago, Blakeston said:

I think Elizabeth was thinking, "This is the life I could have had if Uncle David had done his duty, and remained king, and produced heirs like everyone expected him to."

That flashback didn't make me feel any sympathy for Margaret. Even as a 12/13-year-old, it should have been clear to her that all of the historical rules about royal lineage couldn't just be set aside because she felt like being queen.

As an adult, she'd already grown tired of Peter when she made her choice to keep her title rather than marry him. I don't think a stable relationship with him could have made her happy. She found stable relationships to be boring.

Why not? Uncle David decided he didn't want to do it and left it to his younger brother. Why couldn't Lilibet pass it to HER younger sister? I would think to a 12 year old, it would seem like a real possibility. 

[Roseanna]

4 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Margaret had to apologize to dozens of people after she took over for Elizabeth when Elizabeth was in Australia on the tour.  It was shown on The Crown.

Yes, I forgot it. She l

1 hour ago, MamaMax said:

Why not? Uncle David decided he didn't want to do it and left it to his younger brother. Why couldn't Lilibet pass it to HER younger sister? I would think to a 12 year old, it would seem like a real possibility. 

A 12 year old had no right make legal decisions. When Elizabeth became an adult, her character and morals was totally opposite than her uncle and she had been learned from her parents what danger as well as shame the abdication meant to monarchy which is based on primogentury.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 11/17/2019 at 11:04 PM, phoenics said:

Also - the fact that PC and PA and CPB and APB were all involved in a love quad -

Princess Anne was done with Parker Bowles before Charles met Camilla, so no overlap.

On 11/20/2019 at 1:43 PM, Roseanna said:

On 11/17/2019 at 11:04 PM, phoenics said:

I'm still reeling that even after Princess Margaret told her family how her husband was openly and publicly cheating on her - they just started praising her husband.  WTF? 

I think that was perhaps because Margaret showed "bad taste" by talking about her troubles in her birthday party. It's regarded vulgar to ask for pity.

When Elizabeth earlier visited Margaret, she was sympathic - the difference was that they were alone.

I also don't know if Tony was "openly" cheating on her. Was he bringing his mistress to parties, or even appearing in public with her? If men were discrete, their behavior could be overlooked. Margaret  and Elizabeth's father didn't have mistresses, and Margaret appears to have really loved Tony, so she couldn't overlook it. Plus, Tony seemed to want to enjoy their volatile relationship whenever he felt like it, with no thought to what she would be doing or feeling in the interim.

I hope their children were at boarding school, because they didn't seem to get any parental attention.  In real life, hadn't Margaret given birth to her younger child very shortly before the time she is shown as having visited President Johnson?  She could have felt more useful just by being with her children, but I suppose she hadn't really experienced that growing up.

Edited December 1, 2019 by ItCouldBeWorse

[Cheezwiz]

On 11/30/2019 at 5:16 PM, PeterPirate said:

That's because they didn't let her marry Peter Townsend.  

I really think Townsend was a girlish fantasy figure for Margaret. I'd be willing to bet if Margaret & Townsend had been allowed to freely pursue their romance, she would've eventually gotten bored with him and dropped him like a hot potato. Townsend sounded like he had a very steady temperament, and with her constant need for novelty and attention, Margaret would have likely found him stodgy over the long haul. And I don't think she was ever characterized as "nice". She was spoiled from the get-go. Her servants were thrilled when she finally married and left the palace.

[PeterPirate]

15 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Margaret had to apologize to dozens of people after she took over for Elizabeth when Elizabeth was in Australia on the tour.  It was shown on The Crown.

Anyway, among other things she insulted several diplomats, a general who asked her if she wanted to dance was told "Yes, but not with YOU!" She was a nasty, jealous piece of work.  Elizabeth ordered her to write apologies to at least a dozen people she was rude to, WHILE standing in for the Queen, which presumably would make that her "BEST behavior."

We've also seen her endlessly rude to servants.

Actually, we are not shown Margaret being rude to people in Pride & Joy.  We see her being marvelous in front of a bunch of diplomats, and also speaking up for coal miners.  It's only later that we are told that she had upset some people.  

Here is what Churchill says to Margaret later in the episode (with Margaret's lines cut out):  

Quote

Your Royal Highness when you appear in public performing official duties, you are not you.  Expressing political opinions about working conditions in mines, that business at Sadler's Wells. And no one wants you to be you, they want you to be it.  The Crown. That's what they've come to see.  Not you.  The minute you become yourself, you shatter the illusion, break the spell.  Your uncle, Edward VIII, threatened to do just that, impose his individuality on the institution.  And he almost destroyed it in the process!  No, but I've decided that all remaining Royal engagements in the Queen's absence should be carried out by the Queen Mother.

No mention of rude behavior on Margaret's part.  Her offense was that she was being herself and not "the crown".  

And bringing things back to season 3, when do we see Margaret being beastly to the servants?  There are spoken references to such things, but we don't see it.  My guess is that Morgan left that out because it would distract from the story he was trying to tell.  

Even this episode, there is a fair amount of "dramatic underlining".  Elizabeth's discussion with Margaret after her overdose is speculation on Morgan's part.  It's not historical, but that is the story that's being told.  And the story of Margaret and Elizabeth is the most important theme of this show over all three seasons.  Elizabeth does not get emotional over the loss of scores of children in a mining accident, but she does get emotional over the thought of losing her sister.  

[Roseanna]

On 11/30/2019 at 7:16 PM, PeterPirate said:

That's because they didn't let her marry Peter Townsend.  

She could have married him, but she chose her priviledged position.

It's nothing unusual that you must make a choice: when you want something that is most important to you, you sometimes have to give up something else that's less important. It's a question of priorities. Often it's only when you must make a choice that you know what you value most.

However, I must say to Margaret's defence that maybe she had only little resilience that helps people to survive even much more greater happenings.  

15 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

Actually, we are not shown Margaret being rude to people in Pride & Joy.  We see her being marvelous in front of a bunch of diplomats, and also speaking up for coal miners.  It's only later that we are told that she had upset some people.  

Here is what Churchill says to Margaret later in the episode (with Margaret's lines cut out):  

No mention of rude behavior on Margaret's part.  Her offense was that she was being herself and not "the crown".  

Well, I understood rightaway that Margaret's speeches were insulting to the audience as well as her sister whom she represented. 

"As for being youself", the same is with politicians. They can't say when they meet possible voters "your opinion is silly" but "is it so?" or "an interesting point of view".

 

Continueing about "being oneself": people behave diffently when they they working or at home, at a formal events and spending free time, or as boss, worker, wife/husband, parent, friend etc.  

I think that one reason to Margaret's problems was that she could be only "Princess Margaret", she couldn't either become "Mrs Townsend" nor present her public role as Princess with dignity. 

It's not that vivacity and a sense of humor are bad things in themselves but in that scene in S1 she forgot that her job wasn't got admiration to herself for her wit, still less to amuse herself at the cost somebody but get the guests feel themselves honored.

[Blakeston]

The reviewers at Gofugyourself were very critical of Peter Morgan's 

15 hours ago, MamaMax said:

I think this is kind of the point. They are really showing their asses and steering themselves right out of the job. 

Why not? Uncle David decided he didn't want to do it and left it to his younger brother. Why couldn't Lilibet pass it to HER younger sister? I would think to a 12 year old, it would seem like a real possibility. 

Margaret also saw that the abdication was a complete shit-show that tore the royal family apart. She had no reason to think that any of their advisors (let alone Tommy Lascelles, of all people) would respond positively to a new generation wanting to take a stab at it. 

To be fair to the real Margaret, I can't imagine anything like that actually happened in the 1940's.

2 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

Actually, we are not shown Margaret being rude to people in Pride & Joy.  We see her being marvelous in front of a bunch of diplomats, and also speaking up for coal miners.  It's only later that we are told that she had upset some people.  

Here is what Churchill says to Margaret later in the episode (with Margaret's lines cut out):  

No mention of rude behavior on Margaret's part.  Her offense was that she was being herself and not "the crown".  

The scene with Churchill isn't the part where her bad behavior is laid out. It's when Elizabeth confronts her later, and says that Margaret made a debutante cry, and refused to meet with some dancers after showing up late for their performance. And when a general asked her to dance, Margaret said, "Yes, but not with you." That's more than just being individualistic; it's flat-out rudeness.

Edited December 2, 2019 by Blakeston

[GHScorpiosRule]

Well that's about 10 hours of my life I won't get back.

What a bloody disappointment and waste of time.

[Umbelina]

Just now, GHScorpiosRule said:

Well that's about 10 hours of my life I won't get back.

What a bloody disappointment and waste of time.

I agree.  There is a season 3 thread to discuss the season as a whole, but yeah, as a finale, this was another strike and a miss.

[Roseanna]

I think that Margaret was also influenced by her year of birth, 1930. She was too young to serve during the war like her big sister Elizabeth, born 1926), but she didn't really belong the modern world, either.

The old habit was that royals married royals. Queen Victoria married a German Prince (at that time there were plenty to chose) and Edward VII married a Danish princess. Victoria chose Princess Mary of Teck to Prince Eddy and then George V. It was only after WW1 that the royals  began to marry British aristocrats, like George VI.

(Actually, it's funny how much Elizabeth's marriage with Philip was opposed as he was her equal and there was a few ruyals left to choose.)

Although Margaret couldn't marry a divorced man, she could marry a commoner which was also a big step although Tony later accepted the title. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I agree.  There is a season 3 thread to discuss the season as a whole, but yeah, as a finale, this was another strike and a miss.

Oops! Thanks for the update. I hadn't realized there was a season three discussion thread; hence my post in the final episode thread!

Moderators, please feel free to move my comment to the appropriate thread, if needed.

[PeterPirate]

9 hours ago, Blakeston said:

The reviewers at Gofugyourself were very critical of Peter Morgan's 

Margaret also saw that the abdication was a complete shit-show that tore the royal family apart. She had no reason to think that any of their advisors (let alone Tommy Lascelles, of all people) would respond positively to a new generation wanting to take a stab at it. 

To be fair to the real Margaret, I can't imagine anything like that actually happened in the 1940's.

The scene with Churchill isn't the part where her bad behavior is laid out. It's when Elizabeth confronts her later, and says that Margaret made a debutante cry, and refused to meet with some dancers after showing up late for their performance. And when a general asked her to dance, Margaret said, "Yes, but not with you." That's more than just being individualistic; it's flat-out rudeness.

Well, again, I did note that "later that we are told that she had upset some people".

Let me try one more time to get my point across.  Pretend that you know absolutely nothing about the BRF, except for what you have learned from watching these three seasons.  Do you think you would come to conclusion that Margaret turned out the way did because she was spoiled?  Or that she was beastly to her servants and the common folk?

Edited December 2, 2019 by PeterPirate