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S03.E06: 45 Degree Angle

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During his first solo surgery, Dr. Murphy alienates a nurse, putting his residency in jeopardy.

Aired 11/4/2019

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Oof. Tough times all around tonight.

Some really good scenes between Lim and Shaun this episode. I continue to really like how Lim's doing her job, and I like that she was firm with Shaun. She was right to call him out, and I trust Shaun will keep her advice and warning in mind going forward now.

(That said, Shaun's "I failed" still broke my heart a little anyway.) 

I also liked how Morgan handled Claire's "absence" from work, and called her out on how her struggles are affecting her and those around her. And I like that she wanted Claire to talk to Shaun-even the people on the show know that she's a good sounding board for him (well, usually under better circumstances, she is, anyway). 

That said, I like that Carly reminded Shaun that if he had an issue, he should remember to talk to her about it, too. I don't really feel she did anything wrong here. I kinda get the thing of her just assuming he wouldn't interact well with her friends, but at the same time, some people just want time to hang out with their friends without their significant other around. Nothing wrong with that. Shaun can certainly do the same if he wants to take a break from hanging out with Carly, too. 

(Also, regarding couples, why do I get the feeling Glassman and his wife working together will not go smoothly? Some spouses can make that work, but I don't know if I could do that, personally.)

Everything with the woman and her baby was so sad. Melendez breaking the news to her husband, as well as him seeing his baby, got me all choked up. 

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14 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

(Also, regarding couples, why do I get the feeling Glassman and his wife working together will not go smoothly? Some spouses can make that work, but I don't know if I could do that, personally.)

Probably because they made it super obvious that it's not likely to go well. Glassman pointed out, rightfully, that working together is going to put a strain on their relationship. As for Debbie....well...she was rightfully fired from her job, she threw a fit about it and enabled Glassman to follow her home, and then she convinced him to hire her, despite the fact that she just lost her job. She won't be a good employee to Glassman and with them being newly married, it's only going to end in disaster...and divorce. 

16 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

That said, I like that Carly reminded Shaun that if he had an issue, he should remember to talk to her about it, too. I don't really feel she did anything wrong here. I kinda get the thing of her just assuming he wouldn't interact well with her friends, but at the same time, some people just want time to hang out with their friends without their significant other around. Nothing wrong with that. Shaun can certainly do the same if he wants to take a break from hanging out with Carly, too. 

I think Carly had a good reason to just want to hang out with her friends without Shaun and I wish that was more of the message. But I do appreciate them going a route I wasn't fully expecting, with both parties not acting well in this situation. Shaun forgot to communicate with Carly, and Carly made assumptions that Shaun wouldn't fit in with her friends. It was lessons on both ends, which I liked a lot. 

Claire is a downright mess and she needs some serious help. I wish Morgan was slightly more concerned; she's concerned enough to notice that Claire's off, but apparently not enough to see that she's not ok. 

Lim continues to be a great Chief. I'm glad she had to set some ground rules with Shaun and she did it in her own way. It seemed to be what Shaun needed; a firm authority figure telling him that he needs to apologize, outlining the consequences if it happens again, but also being gentle with him.

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24 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Probably because they made it super obvious that it's not likely to go well. Glassman pointed out, rightfully, that working together is going to put a strain on their relationship. As for Debbie....well...she was rightfully fired from her job, she threw a fit about it and enabled Glassman to follow her home, and then she convinced him to hire her, despite the fact that she just lost her job. She won't be a good employee to Glassman and with them being newly married, it's only going to end in disaster...and divorce. 

Heh, yeah, was kinda being sarcastic with the question there :p.

But yes, exactly, spot on with your comments about Debbie. Even though they were right to fire her (though I do like the "free coffee to comfort and soothe people" idea in and of itself), I can still sympathize with her frustration, just 'cause being fired in and of itself sucks.

When Glassman's expressing concerns about them working together, though, she should try listening to him. Course, he ultimately relented, so... Sounds like they could take a few lessons from Shaun and Carly themselves. 

Quote

I think Carly had a good reason to just want to hang out with her friends without Shaun and I wish that was more of the message. But I do appreciate them going a route I wasn't fully expecting, with both parties not acting well in this situation. Shaun forgot to communicate with Carly, and Carly made assumptions that Shaun wouldn't fit in with her friends. It was lessons on both ends, which I liked a lot. 

Agreed :). I also liked how Shaun opened up a bit about his childhood during their conversation, too, to better explain why he was so bothered by being excluded (and that story. Oh :(). 

Edited by Annber03
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Shaun was wrong not to explain what he wanted to the nurse during surgery, or just plain take the damn clamp that one time the way she handed it to him. Other surgeons apparently do so, so it's not like it's a horrifying breach.

But I also thought the nurse was wrong to not let him explain why it mattered. I personally would not want an employee who was more concerned with her ego than with understanding the reasons for things.

I like Lim a lot. She's a great boss.

Claire was wrong to meddle. Resznik was right about that. I think Resznik does know that Claire isn't okay. She may not know how to fix it, but she's tried a few different ways to help-- and no one else seems to have noticed there's a problem, so that says something about the rest of the team and about Resznik herself.

Mixed feelings about Carly and Shaun. In a practical way, he was fine letting her spend time with her friends without him, so his real problem only happened when he got confused about what it meant, after the nurse planted the idea that it might mean Carly didn't see him as a boyfriend. To be honest, I thought that nurse was provoking him on purpose. She at minimum didn't care about his feelings. She wasn't tactful, and everyone else in the room was. When he wasn't tactful later about the 45 degree angle, she ought to have been able to deal with it, since she herself doesn't put feelings over bluntness when it suits her.

Carly was right that Shaun wouldn't have wanted to meet her friends. If she had talked with him about it beforehand, they could have prevented the whole confusion later on. Maybe they learned from this, and will try that approach in the future.

I don't like Debbie. Her idea of giving free coffee is a good one, but she was blatantly out of line continuing to do it after twice being warned not to. And she doesn't respect Aaron at all. This is the second episode in a row where she's overriden his concerns and tried to make him feel lesser than her when she wanted something he wasn't comfortable with. And he gives in. It's depressing. And I don't even like him! But I like her less.

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9 minutes ago, possibilities said:

She may not know how to fix it, but she's tried a few different ways to help-- and no one else seems to have noticed there's a problem, so that says something about the rest of the team and about Resznik herself.

Seriously, while I'm liking these scenes between Morgan and Claire of late, I do wonder if and when anyone else is going to try and talk to her and see what's up. 

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The nurse didn't owe Shaun anything. He called her professionalism into question during surgery and after making her feel like crap, he insisted she listened to his long winded explanation as to why she was wrong and he was right. WTF. She asked several times, she wanted just a minute to have her lunch. But no, it was his way or the highway. She took the highway. Angry and hungry thanks to Shaun.

If Shaun wants to be treated like an equal, he should treat others with the same respect and consideration. He is being portrayed as someone whom should be treated as you would your regular coworker despite his condition. No one, male or female, would get away with the crap he does day in and out. 

I guess I just lost my patience with him today because I feel like, despite him being wrong and being told very clearly that he was wrong, I was suppose to think he wasn't wrong and that the nurse he yelled at is in the wrong too or had to comply with his demands  

18 hours ago, possibilities said:

But I also thought the nurse was wrong to not let him explain why it mattered

Nope. The only one in the wrong was Shaun. 

Edited by Deputy Deputy CoS
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Shaun should not have gone to that lunch table going "hey let me explain the history of the forceps to you" - he should have apologized, then offered to tell her later what he prefers and why.

With the fetal viability, I am pretty sure a 23 week black female doesn't have a 15% survival rate - I am pretty sure it would be higher than that. 15% were close to my odds back in 1990 being born at 25 weeks (white/hispanic male). Although I think my survival chances were much lower.

I believe black female micro preemies have a much higher survival rate. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16396844)

Looking at this article, looks like back in 2015, the overall survival rate for 23 week micro preemies went from 27-33% - https://www.huffpost.com/entry/survival-rates-for-micro-premies-continue-to-improve_n_55eed4fce4b093be51bbf26c

Edited by bros402
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I love this show and its attempt to be realistic, but I am not happy with the writers on this one with regard to the Shaun and the bitch nurse issue and all that radiates from it.

I have a different perspective than many and I am thus "pulling rank" so you either accept my knowledge and experience or just say I am a loon while I laugh at you for not getting it.

Big hospital dirty politics is very well known; I worked at one for two decades.  It's a turf war between the nurses and the doctors and the nurses always win, even if they are horrible.

It's very hard to get a nurse fired, and some of them are goldbricks and worse, and game the system knowing they can't get fired unless they do something seriously bad, or even get caught stealing supplies/drugs, etc.  And this is of course causing needless blame for GOOD nurses, who are the majority, but it's the old one bad apple spoils the barrel, etc.

The nurse is deliberately busting his chops and being unprofessional trying to distract him.  She is as bad as the doctors who also don't want him there, and perhaps there is an undercurrent of conspiracy to get rid of him just because.

But make no mistake about it, because it is a turf war, there is always some senior nursing staff supervisor who will complain about a doctor, right or wrong, and they won't check to see if one of their own is really a little bitch from hell giving the others a bad name.  The only way that happens is if another nurse complains to their common nurse-boss, etc.

Dr Lim is NOT a good manager of the situation.  Why?  Because she didn't tell Shaun the reality of this situation, essentially that he has to placate the bitch nurse because she is powerless to help him.  Instead of warning him, she BLAMES him.  Maybe from her point of view this expediently solves this particular problem, but she has no business being in that position and not being aware that what happened to Shaun is inconsistent with who Shaun is.  Confidentially, she should explain WHY they have to placate the bitch, and that once he is a complete graduate experienced surgeon, THEN he can have ANYONE summarily thrown out of his operating room for ANY reason or even any non-reason, but right now he is "low man on the totem pole" and has to kow-tow, etc. AND instead of making him apologize, just ignore here, it won't help and offer to talk to her nurse-boss counterpart about the reality of the troublemaking going on on the part of the bitch nurse, etc.  It would start a process such that if this repeats too many times, the nurse-boss would finally have to take disciplinary action against her, of course in a closed-door way because after all, we have to make sure we totally control all of the doctors, etc.

Ask any doctors, such as my personal friends, who went through internship in a big-city hospital about how you have to make nicey-nicey with the nurses to avoid being kicked out, etc.  And again, most of them are fine and knowledgable, and you see shows where the nurses tell the new doctors what to do, this is all fine and reality, but we are talking about coddling a goldbrick trouble-making bitch in particular.

Thus, Shaun how has to swallow all of his pride, and he does have well-deserved pride because he really is that good.  Some people "accuse" me of having Asperberger's merely because I am deliberately non-diplomatic because I don't give a shit.  I don't suffer fools and thankfully for the most part I don't have to.  Also, I have brilliant friends who actually are autistic, but they are street-smart enough when talking to me to understand corruption and the consequences of it, etc.

Dr. Lim just confused Shaun by not telling him the truth, and he is just plain confused about "somehow" he did something he has to apologize for.

Now, to be sure, if Shaun had more of a personality like the egotistical Melendez, Lim's boyfriend and they are trying to one-up each other, then he could make some pushy snarky remark to chew out the bitchy nurse, and that would be OK with Lim, but she is there to make sure his career succeeds, and not derail it with needless blame.  Take Shaun into her confidence that the nurses can ruin doctors UNFAIRLY and they can't help it.  To apologize to her just empowers her to do more crap on Shaun, etc.  

Because he is not senior staff, he cannot make a complaint about bitch-nurse, but Lim should have done so at least privately with the nurse-boss counterpart and assured Shaun that yes, he has to not make waves, and that sometimes you have to pretend you are at fault, but also assure him that in this case, they cannot do much but she is having his back, etc.

Lastly, I was a patient in one of these hospitals quite recently. and there was this twerp floor doctor who treated me like shit.  I asked a friendly nurse for the phone extension of the nurse-director who oversees that particular group of nurses in that ward.  I had a nice conversation with her and quite quickly, I ruined his day.  In the end, either he will learn his lesson and become a better doctor OR he will quit and the practice of medicine will be better off without him.  Thus, as a clever PATIENT I manipulated and gamed the same system.

Thus, my take on the show is Lim did not do right by Shaun and needlessly confused him.  Clearly she was explaining the dynamic that he could have a black mark on his permanent record, yet chose to also confuse him and in essence becomes the bad manager who caves.  She is therefore not all that good, although she means well.

Last point, an analogy to baseball.  The famous team manager Leo Durocher is the source of this well known advice: Nice guys finish last.

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Was surprised to hear Debbie say she was a nurse.  Why was she working in the hospital coffee shop then? No shame in an honest day's work but I found that really odd.

Edited by ECM1231
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If Shaun wants to be treated like an equal, he should treat others with the same respect and consideration. He is being portrayed as someone whom should be treated as you would your regular coworker despite his condition. No one, male or female, would get away with the crap he does day in and out. 

Bingo. I know we are supposed to be on his side and I know the hospital is required under the law to make reasonable accommodations, but his actions again put a patient at risk. Then he made it worse by NOT actually apologizing since I guess he just wasnt capable of it.

I know he really wants to be a surgeon, but I gotta think that we are going to again reach the point where that cant/won't/SHOULDN'T happen.

Really starting to doubt why Carly wants to be with Shawn. Saying she wanted to hang with a group of friends of which he isnt a part is part of most relationships, but she seemed to be worried about whether they would accept him.....not whether they would like him. 

Edited by AriAu
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51 minutes ago, ECM1231 said:

Was surprised to hear Debbie say she was a nurse.  Why was she working in the hospital coffee shop then? No shame in an honest day's work but I found that really odd.

I thought that was a hint that perhaps she had misbehaved and gone rogue as a nurse, and become unemployable in that job, as well. Aaron clearly has no idea who she is and hasn't bothered to find out anything other than "she's fun, she pushes me out of my comfort zone, and also I like the sex."

8 hours ago, bros402 said:

Shaun should not have gone to that lunch table going "hey let me explain the history of the forceps to you" - he should have apologized, then offered to tell her later what he prefers and why.

I agree with this, but I still think that the nurse was acting just as rigid and unreasonable as he was, and that the only reason she's not being called on it is that people identify with her more than Shaun, which makes it just another form of preferential treatment-- directed at the nurse-- rather than anything inherent in the actual merits of her or his position.

I absolutely do think Shaun needs to learn better communication and social skills and especially better emotional self-control. But I think that there are ways he is BETTER than other people, and they are not being asked to also grow, or at least come to some humility about their own position.

Edited by possibilities
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5 minutes ago, possibilities said:

I agree with this, but I still think that the nurse was acting just as rigid and unreasonable as he was, and that the only reason she's not being called on it is that people identify with her more than Shaun, which makes it just another form of preferential treatment-- directed at the nurse-- rather than anything inherent in the actual merits of her or his position.

I don't see how she was being rigid.  She told Sean that she didn't know how he wanted her to give him the clamp (or whatever it was).  She asked him how he wanted her to do it, and all he said was the "efficient way" which is not helpful.  Then he wouldn't take them at all and kicked her out of the room even though she hadn't done anything wrong.  If he had just told her then that he needed a specific angle, she could have done that, just like when he first walked into the surgery and had to be specific about the angle of the lights.

Then he wouldn't even apologize and just wanted to show her that he was right and didn't need to apologize, again not seeing how rude and unprofessional that was.  Even if he was trying to help her understand what he needed, he didn't need to go into the history of clamps to explain.  Just apologize and tell her the angle he needed and be done with it.  But he couldn't/wouldn't see that because he'd have to admit what he did was wrong.

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I've always loved medical shows. I like Freddie Highmore. So I really wanted to love this show from the first episode. But Shaun's behavior towards the nurse in O.R. and further attacking, instead of apologizing, when she was trying to eat her lunch really bothered me and has given me another reason to feel like I don't need to make this show a must see anymore.  I feel like he should have been suspended for a few days or some kind of punishment but this storyline will probably be dropped. The nurse reporting him may not matter as far as his record since Lim will probably stand up for him and not want him punished.

I know there's not a ton of realism in a lot of drama shows, but as much of a genius as the show has told us Shaun is, I fail to see how he could ever be a surgeon with all of his issues. It falls into the very unrealistic/could never happen in real life category for me. He would always need another surgeon there to monitor/help him and what hospital would do that.

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His behavior is no worse than House's and the "unrealistic" label never stopped that show from being a hit. I think that the reason it's so hard to get used to Shaun as a character who isn't immediately expelled from the hospital is that in general (in society and on TV), people who are nasty rude and horrible are given much more of a pass than people who have any kind of disability. This is because PWD are easier to destroy than flat out rude, nasty,  bullies, since PWD often have less ability to fight back.

I agree with everyone that Shaun was wrong in the OR, and he should apologize for that and take responsibility for never having that kind of meltdown again if he wants to be a surgeon.

Where I think the nurse is wrong is that when Shaun came to her after, and tried to answer her question about "the right way" she wasn't interested in that. He was not being aggressive with her in that scene. His body language, tone, and affect were completely different than in the OR.

To me, her rigidity in hearing the "magic words" rather than her interest in the substance of his explanation of what he had been upset about and wanted corrected, is a neurotypical bit of BS that highlights that her value was just as much on "winning" a psychological battle with Shaun, where her ego gets validated over the practical matter of how best to conduct a surgery.

I think she should be interested in best practices from a surgical ergonomics point of view and see and value Shaun's perspective on that, as much as I think Shaun needs to learn to see the value of conveying that information efficiently and respectfully to colleagues. If she does so, she will be a better nurse and a better person.

It's like the argument he and Lea had about the toilet paper. She eventually acknowledged that he was right, and he agreed to not harp on every single thing he preferred, while she agreed to be open to his input.

I understand that neurotypical people don't want to acknowledge that things that autistic people do or value might in some cases be valid even though it makes them uncomfortable and presses them to change. But I think this is an important point and the world will be better when that rigidity goes away.

I also think that the nurse was rude and insensitive to Shaun during the practice session-- she is the one who said it looked like Carly didn't think of him as a boyfriend. Everyone else in the room saw the same thing but also tried to come up with other possibilities for why Carly behaved as she did. But this particular nurse was not just tactless, but kind of doubled down on it even when everyone else was trying to be tactful. So if she herself is not apologizing for being tactless and unconcerned about Shaun's feelings, then she ought to realize that he might not be concerned about that kind of thing in his relationship with her, either. It's a double standard that what is upsetting to her is important but his feelings aren't worth considering.

I don't think it was an accident that the same nurse who planted doubts in him right before the surgery is the one who was at odds with him during the surgery and also not open to what he was trying to tell her after. I think there are some people who naturally mesh better with each other and some who clash more, due to personality or temperament differences. And when that happens, I think it's always the autistic person who gets blamed, but it ought to be considered that it may in fact be a little bit on both of them.

I don't think that just because the nurse's point of view is probably the more common one, that means she's the only one who should be accommodated and that the world should revolve around her values and comfort more than his.

Again, I 100% think Shaun was wrong in the OR, in that he lost his cool, didn't explain what he wanted, was totally inflexible on a non-critical point, and didn't see anything wrong with having done that. Lim was right to tell him he can't let that ever happen again. But I also think the nurse is defensive, inconsiderate, insensitive, rude, and rigid, and I would bet good money that she's not just that way with Shaun.

Edited by possibilities
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Shaun was definitely out of line with the nurse, he should have just told her why he wanted the scalpel handed to him, and then when he didnt, he should have just apologized. He messed up with her, and I am glad that Lim told him so and that it did apparently sink in at the end. Shaun usually doesent mean to hurt people, but his bluntness and belief that he is always right (even if he often is, technically) and struggles to communicate can cause real problems and he needs to deal with that, especially in these life or death situations. Honestly, I thought he was rude to the nurse because she was the one who told him that Carly wasnt treating him "like a boyfriend" and he was mad at her and hurt about Carly and didnt know how to deal with that, so he took it out on her in another way. 

That being said, I dont think that means he shouldn't be a surgeon or anything, he just needs to deal with these issues like anyone else would. Pretty much every surgeon on the show has their problems that can sometimes leak into their professional lives, or have done professionally questionable things or been rude, its just that Shaun also has to deal with a mental health issue that could affect his job performance. 

Speaking of issues, I hope that Claire tells everyone the truth about her mom and gets some help soon, maybe speaking to a therapist, and gets it together soon. I dont want to see her further spiral, even if it is leading to a lot of good scenes between Claire and Morgan. 

Giving free coffee to people going through hard times is a nice idea, but I dont blame them for firing Debbie, especially after they gave her two warnings. She and Glassman working together might seem like a great idea, but the two of them have such different personalities and styles of working, that I dont see this ending well. 

I didnt know where the Carly and Shaun plot was going, and I liked how it ended up. They both realized that they need to communicate and be honest with each other, and while Carly should be able to have guests over without inviting Shaun, she could have told him about it, and Shaun needs to learn that he needs to go directly to Carly when he is upset or confused, and not talk to other people about it and have them talk to Carly. Really, those are good lessons for any couple, regardless of who they are.

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54 minutes ago, possibilities said:

I agree with everyone that Shaun was wrong in the OR, and he should apologize for that and take responsibility for never having that kind of meltdown again if he wants to be a surgeon.

Where I think the nurse is wrong is that when Shaun came to her after, and tried to answer her question about "the right way" she wasn't interested in that. He was not being aggressive with her in that scene. His body language, tone, and affect were completely different than in the OR.

I also think that the nurse was rude and insensitive to Shaun during the practice session-- she is the one who said it looked like Carly didn't think of him as a boyfriend. Everyone else in the room saw the same thing but also tried to come up with other possibilities for why Carly behaved as she did. But this particular nurse was not just tactless, but kind of doubled down on it even when everyone else was trying to be tactful. So if she herself is not apologizing for being tactless and unconcerned about Shaun's feelings, then she ought to realize that he might not be concerned about that kind of thing in his relationship with her, either. It's a double standard that what is upsetting to her is important but his feelings aren't worth considering.

I think that nurse would have been open to just hearing what exactly he thought she did wrong if he did not feel the need to start with a long-winded speech on where the "right way" originated.  And then, just apologize, whether you think it owed or not.

The nurse was definitely egging him on and rude during the practice session and should have just kept to the surgery.  Would someone actually have done that? I doubt it.

They both owed each other an apology, in my opinion.

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It's a bit puzzling that the practice surgery didn't include the angle of the instrument pass. Was there just no instruments? I wasn't paying attention.

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I must be in a pissy mood this afternoon because I didn’t care much at all for this episode.  I won’t go into a tangent bitching about all the things that annoyed me.  Instead I’ll say what I did like, which was almost all the scenes with Dr. Lim, especially the one at the end where she and Melendez shared a quiet moment after he lost his patient. 

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1 hour ago, rhys said:

It's a bit puzzling that the practice surgery didn't include the angle of the instrument pass. Was there just no instruments? I wasn't paying attention.

I believe in the practise session a different nurse handed him the forceps. In the real surgery, an artery was nicked, so the original nurse was doing something else so this nurse passed the forceps. And did it differently.

All Shaun had to do was say “I like my forceps passed this way please. “

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17 hours ago, possibilities said:

I don't like Debbie. Her idea of giving free coffee is a good one, but she was blatantly out of line continuing to do it after twice being warned not to. And she doesn't respect Aaron at all. This is the second episode in a row where she's overriden his concerns and tried to make him feel lesser than her when she wanted something he wasn't comfortable with. And he gives in. It's depressing. And I don't even like him! But I like her less.

I just keep being distracted by the fact that the actors are a married couple IRL (and working together like their characters:).

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2 hours ago, rhys said:

It's a bit puzzling that the practice surgery didn't include the angle of the instrument pass. Were there just no instruments? I wasn't paying attention.

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18 hours ago, possibilities said:

Mixed feelings about Carly and Shaun. In a practical way, he was fine letting her spend time with her friends without him, so his real problem only happened when he got confused about what it meant, after the nurse planted the idea that it might mean Carly didn't see him as a boyfriend. To be honest, I thought that nurse was provoking him on purpose. She at minimum didn't care about his feelings. She wasn't tactful, and everyone else in the room was. When he wasn't tactful later about the 45 degree angle, she ought to have been able to deal with it, since she herself doesn't put feelings over bluntness when it suits her.

I thought she was deliberately provoking him as well, and that may have played a role with how Shaun treated her. It may have been subconscious, but he was upset after she said it and he doesn't react well when he is emotionally upset. But he managed to be respectful to everyone else that day. 

7 hours ago, ECM1231 said:

Was surprised to hear Debbie say she was a nurse.  Why was she working in the hospital coffee shop then? No shame in an honest day's work but I found that really odd.

I thought maybe she had gotten burnt out of nursing (a difficult and probably emotionally stressful job), so decided to do something less stressful.

6 hours ago, AriAu said:

Really starting to doubt why Carly wants to be with Shawn. Saying she wanted to hang with a group of friends of which he isnt a part is part of most relationships, but she seemed to be worried about whether they would accept him.....not whether they would like him. 

I hope it wasn't that she was worried they would tease her for dating an autistic guy, even if they would never make fun of Shaun for being different. 

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18 hours ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

The nurse didn't owe Shaun anything. He called her professionalism into question during surgery and after making her feel like crap, he insisted she listened to his long winded explanation as to why she was wrong and he was right. WTF. She asked several times, she wanted just a minute to have her lunch. But no, it was his way or the highway. She took the highway. Angry and hungry thanks to Shaun.

If Shaun wants to be treated like an equal, he should treat others with the same respect and consideration. He is being portrayed as someone whom should be treated as you would your regular coworker despite his condition. No one, male or female, would get away with the crap he does day in and out. 

I guess I just lost my patience with him today because I feel like, despite him being wrong and being told very clearly that he was wrong, I was suppose to think he wasn't wrong and that the nurse he yelled at is in the wrong too or had to comply with his demands  

Nope. The only one in the wrong was Shaun. 

but her saying "take the damn clamp" sorry that was unacceptable

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I didn't know what Drakkar Noir was, her female Cologne or a man's Cologne.   (husband used to wear Aramis) Google told me, so now it seems that Claire is continuing with the last episode's  activities.  Bummer.  Maybe Reznik can help her see how self destructive this is.

I think Carly handled that misunderstanding well, apologizing and admitting that she could have handled it better. Shaun just wanted to know where he stood with her and the "girlfriend /boyfriend" exchange brightened his face right up.  Freddie is impressing me again with how he communicates Shaun's feelings so clearly.

I also like how this relationship is moving more slowly than many that we see on TV dramas.

Edited by Brown12051 · Reason: typo
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17 hours ago, bros402 said:



I believe black female micro preemies have a much higher survival rate. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16396844)
 

I have a friend who was a pediatric nurse for 20+ years. She once told me that she had a hierarchy on tough baby types and black girls were numero uno. She said that white males were the ones she thought of as being the least tough.

I'm with you, @Fable, this episode sucked except for Lim.

Boundaries, Shaun. You don't walk into an examination room and then blab your business in front of a stranger.  Seems he should have a little more control that to do a thing like that.

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26 minutes ago, mojito said:

Boundaries, Shaun. You don't walk into an examination room and then blab your business in front of a stranger. 

Why did Glassman encourage him to keep talking instead of shooing him away? That poor patient.

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5 minutes ago, Kleav said:

Why did Glassman encourage him to keep talking instead of shooing him away? That poor patient.

I was wondering about that, too. I did like how the patient kinda commented on that after Shaun left, though, being all, "Hey, you're wearing a doctor's coat, so, uh, you wanna check my eyes some more...?"

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Looks like the theme for this episode was the separation of personal and work relationships.  Shaun and Carly, Melendez and Lim, the Glassmans, Claire and her issues.

Felt bad for Dr. Melendez, accidentally killing his patient.

Shaun was acting like a d!ck (with the nurse).

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Oof, that was a brutal last few minutes!  At least Shaun completed his first surgery without harming the patient in any real way, but he really torpedoed all that goodwill with how he handled the nurse.  All he had to do was tell her the way he wanted her to hold the instrument and it would have been fine.  But since its Shaun, he didn't communicate it properly, got her frustrated, and then he basically humiliated her by tossing her out.  And then he couldn't even do the apology right by never saying sorry, but just trying to explain his method and why it was "right."  Again, had he started out apologizing and then explained why he felt that way, it might have gone better.  All in all, he clearly has the skills to make it as a surgeon, but he's really going to have to work on his communication and the way he interacts with others, because this is going to really impact the way he performs as an official doctor.

That said, since it was the same nurse that put doubts into Shaun's head about his relationship with Carly, I did wonder if maybe that was in the back of his mind, and could explain why he was being a jerk to her.  I wonder if there will end up being more to this or not.

Continue to like how Lim handles Shaun and seems to know when to give him the benefit of the doubt, but when to actually drawl a line with him.  A little unsure about Andrews, but I do think his actions aren't out of spite, but he is simply allowing Shaun to make his own decisions, and have him learn to deal with the consequences whenever he messes up.

I had a suspicious feeling Melendez's case was going to end badly for him.  Being a doctor is tough!

Oh, Claire!  You are so spiraling, now!  Freaking Reznick of all people is becoming the voice of reason, dammit!

Actually liked how they resolved the Shaun/Carly drama.

Yeah, Debbie working with Glassman is going to totally end up being a horrible idea...

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9 hours ago, rhys said:

It's a bit puzzling that the practice surgery didn't include the angle of the instrument pass. Was there just no instruments? I wasn't paying attention.

The one who was trained in handing the instrument to him was busy dealing with a bleed, so the other nurse wound up doing it "wrong" when she subbed in. He explained it to Lim, and I wouldn't have caught it if he hadn't.

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I was surprised by the number of posts condemning Shaun. Yes, he was in the wrong, and should not have treated that nurse that way. But he is autistic, she is not. She knew damn well what she was doing throwing that comment about "not being a boyfriend," she should have known Shaun needed to focus and concentrate during a practice for his first operation.

I know it was Morgan who commented first, but nurse definitely provoked Shaun, I felt, for whatever reason. And yet a number of posters are saying he should never be  a surgeon? Due to one incident? That seems excessive.

So Aaron married Debbie after a week (okay, longer), then they marry and move in together, and now they're going to be working full-time together? Yeah this is a terrific idea.

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15 hours ago, possibilities said:

I thought that was a hint that perhaps she had misbehaved and gone rogue as a nurse, and become unemployable in that job, as well. Aaron clearly has no idea who she is and hasn't bothered to find out anything other than "she's fun, she pushes me out of my comfort zone, and also I like the sex."

I agree with this, but I still think that the nurse was acting just as rigid and unreasonable as he was, and that the only reason she's not being called on it is that people identify with her more than Shaun, which makes it just another form of preferential treatment-- directed at the nurse-- rather than anything inherent in the actual merits of her or his position.

I absolutely do think Shaun needs to learn better communication and social skills and especially better emotional self-control. But I think that there are ways he is BETTER than other people, and they are not being asked to also grow, or at least come to some humility about their own position.

I was thinking maybe Glassy's wife retired, maybe she was a nurse in a high stress department, wanted a lower stakes job.

I identify more with Shaun and I understand where he was coming from, but he definitely had to approach it from another angle - or someone should have asked Shaun to elaborate - but he again put a patient in danger.

Shaun is an excellent diagnostician, as we have seen multiple times. He has had two surgeries so far, both had him have mild meltdowns/processing issues/communication issues.

5 hours ago, mojito said:

I have a friend who was a pediatric nurse for 20+ years. She once told me that she had a hierarchy on tough baby types and black girls were numero uno. She said that white males were the ones she thought of as being the least tough..

Yeah, the NICU folks were incredibly surprised I survived - I think it was something like a 3% chance of seeing my 1st birthday without a brain bleed (3% of the 15% who survived)

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3 minutes ago, bros402 said:

Yeah, the NICU folks were incredibly surprised I survived - I think it was something like a 3% chance of seeing my 1st birthday without a brain bleed (3% of the 15% who survived)

Whoa. 

I'm sorry you went through that. Here's to beating the odds :). 

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I 100% believe that Shaun was miffed, and a nerve of his was hit when the nurse brought up how Carly possibly didn't think of him as a real boyfriend. I think he didn't expect such a response from her and could possibly have been hurt by it. No doubt that everything I just mentioned was what caused Shaun to lash out at her later over the way she handed him his clamp.   Shaun COMPLETELY handled it wrong, btw. He's not good at directly confronting people over stuff (possibly because of his upbringing, and the one time he actually did was with someone who wrote him off before he even met him, and demoted him before he actually did anything wrong). His problem of talking to everyone else about his relationship with Carly and not her ties into that, too.

It was possibly the stress of doing a lead surgery and an unkind comment on his relationship that caused Shaun to fuss over the clamp and then throw her out of the OR. If anyone remembers, Morgan made a similar comment in episode 2x03 over his friendship with Lea, but I think Shaun just dismissed it because of how he knew Reznick was and would have expected that kind of comment. 

I just think Shaun wears all his emotions right on the front of his shirt, and needs therapy to help with that. That's his biggest problem rather than communication.

Felt really bad for the father of that baby, and Dr. Melendez for his case ending up that way. 

I loved that remark by the patient, "you have a doctor shirt on, so can we finish this? " to Glassman. He's always talking to Shaun while with a patient, lol.

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On 11/4/2019 at 9:07 PM, possibilities said:

Her idea of giving free coffee is a good one, but she was blatantly out of line continuing to do it after twice being warned not to.

It wasn't Debbie's coffee to give away.  The coffee -- and the cup, cream, sugar, and everything else associated with that cup of coffee -- belong to the hospital.  Petty as it may seem, what Debbie was doing was outright theft.  If she felt so strongly about making people feel good, she would have paid for the coffee herself.  And if it wasn't worth HER own money to make someone feel better, than it wasn't worth the HOSPITAL'S money, either.

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I wish they would have Glass an interact with the rest of the hospital and not just Shaun. No one ever comes to him for some mentoring or to be a sounding board??

Edited by chitowngirl
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23 hours ago, Annber03 said:

Whoa. 

I'm sorry you went through that. Here's to beating the odds :). 

Yeah, i'm a medical oddity. The doctors call me a miracle, but isn't oddity a much more fun word?

(I also had no brain bleed)

15 hours ago, StormWarning said:

It wasn't Debbie's coffee to give away.  The coffee -- and the cup, cream, sugar, and everything else associated with that cup of coffee -- belong to the hospital.  Petty as it may seem, what Debbie was doing was outright theft.  If she felt so strongly about making people feel good, she would have paid for the coffee herself.  And if it wasn't worth HER own money to make someone feel better, than it wasn't worth the HOSPITAL'S money, either.

Like I was expecting her to add in "I even paid for the coffee!" but when she didn't I was like "....uhhhhh of course you got fired!"

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I agree with everybody that Shawn was wrong in the way he handled the nurse. He didn't explain himself regarding how he wanted her to hand him the clamp. He also should have just apologized to her and then explained to her how he wanted her to do it.   However, the nurse wasn't blameless herself.  The way she responded to Shawn with the "take the damn clamp" remark was rude and unprofessional on her part and if she had spoken to Dr. Melendez or Dr. Andrews that way, they wouldn't have tolerated it.  Plus, she refused to listen to him and just ran off and then files a complaint seemed petty because she got her feelings hurt when she knows he has autism.  Also, she was rude the way she kept distracting Shawn during their practice by keep pushing the issue with him and Carly putting doubts in his head of their relationship which was none of her business anyway but she seemed like she was just being nosy.  Shawn should have shut her down then and there but he still has problems communicating with others which is why he didn't explain to her how he wanted it done during the surgery.  I also felt Dr. Andrews could have stepped in but I get his reasons. Dr. Lim handled him the right way and he was able to admit he was wrong which is hard for him because he is also a perfectionist.  I see both sides regarding how Shawn should be treated. They shouldn't coddle him so much but, his autism does need to be taken in consideration in how to handle him.  

Edited by Fables
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6 hours ago, Fables said:

I agree with everybody that Shawn was wrong in the way he handled the nurse. He didn't explain himself regarding how he wanted her to hand him the clamp. He also should have just apologized to her and then explained to her how he wanted her to do it.   However, the nurse wasn't blameless herself.  The way she responded to Shawn with the "take the damn clamp" remark was rude and unprofessional on her part and if she had spoken to Dr. Melendez or Dr. Andrews that way, they wouldn't have tolerated it.  Plus, she refused to listen to him and just ran off and then files a complaint seemed petty because she got her feelings hurt when she knows he has autism.  Also, she was rude the way she kept distracting Shawn during their practice by keep pushing the issue with him and Carly putting doubts in his head of their relationship which was none of her business anyway but she seemed like she was just being nosy.  Shawn should have shut her down then and there but he still has problems communicating with others which is why he didn't explain to her how he wanted it done during the surgery.  I also felt Dr. Andrews could have stepped in but I get his reasons. Dr. Lim handled him the right way and he was able to admit he was wrong which is hard for him because he is also a perfectionist.  I see both sides regarding how Shawn should be treated. They shouldn't coddle him so much but, his autism does need to be taken in consideration in how to handle him.  

Drs. Lim and Andrews both have their own views of reasonable accommodation - Andrews is more of a "Let's see how he does with no safety net, how he will be after his residency." point of view, and Lim is a "Let's support him now and help him adjust his behavior while there is still the chance to."

The nurse did respond to Shaun inappropriately and possibly insubordinately - but Shaun should not have approached her at lunch like that. He should have talked to Reznick or (Ideally) Park before trying to apologize to the nurse.

And I will say it again - Shaun needs to see a therapist to help him figure out coping mechanisms to process things like this.

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I love Shaun and because this is just a television show, his quirky and odd behavior in the OR doesn't usually bother me, but in the real world, I wouldn't want him anywhere near me or my loved ones, at least not performing surgery.  His meltdowns can sometimes be dangerous.  He is already in his third year of residency, so he should be getting a handle on things by now.  Reasonable accommodations shouldn't include putting a patient in jeopardy so that he can acclimate.  If he wants to be a doctor, there are plenty of other options.  

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This is just me, but I seem to noticed this season to catch a glimpse of Freddie's distinct British accent from time to time. Not that it is a problem. I remember when   Kate Winslet in Titanic said absurd with such a strong British pronounciation at one point before recovering the American accent.

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I'm glad that Shaun and Carly are going to try and communicate better. I wish they would flesh her out a little more outside of Shaun since she has a significant presence this season.

On 11/5/2019 at 12:18 AM, Annber03 said:

Seriously, while I'm liking these scenes between Morgan and Claire of late, I do wonder if and when anyone else is going to try and talk to her and see what's up. 

I still don't like Resnick, so even if she's right, it irks me that she the one to point out Claire's downward spiral. But I do agree that it's about time someone else notices that Claire isn't herself lately.

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