S10.E02 The Vuolos Take L.A.

[Absolom]

Ratings are in.  1.218 M viewers and up .02 from last week to a .33 rating.

[Sew Sumi]

Viewers are down a little bit from last week, so that's good.

[Bayarea4]

On 10/22/2019 at 7:02 PM, lascuba said:

 And who would have thought that finally having sex would make [JD] so obnoxious. I'd feel sorry for Abbie if she hadn't married a Duggar. 

After watching this episode, I had three thoughts:

1. Now that he's come out of his shell, JD has been acting dorky and immature. He's so annoying. I liked him better when he was single. He needs to go back into his shell.

2. Most of the other Duggar boys are dull, boring and unfortunate-looking.

3. TLC must be scraping the bottom of the barrel for story ideas. Making a whole segment out of a car breakdown along the highway? I'd rather watch paint dry.

[GeeGolly]

It was a bit sad watching Jinger at the Walk of Fame. She had no clue who anyone was. She might as well have been in a foreign country, yet she was in the US walking down a sidewalk with so many universally recognizable names, none of which she recognized.

If I'm remembering correctly, the most popular boy band for guys back then was Boyz II Men.

Ben wasn't having it when Jessa condescendingly tried to make his "hiking in NY" answer make sense. He actually snapped back and said "it's a thing".

Jessa prays for a husband with a beard. Jinger prays that God will allow her to wear pants. God shakes his head and says, "This is not how this works, this is not how this works".

Kade looks like the beast from Beauty and the Beast.

[queenanne]

On 10/22/2019 at 10:53 PM, Spencer Hastings said:

Boybands were the biggest thing in music when Jeremy was coming of age.  Even the most macho guys my age will drop everything and sing every single word to “I Want it That Way.”

Austin’s “Oh I know who they are but none of them do” cracked me up.  He knows they were robbed. 

I'm always surprised that anyone is surprised when the Duggars don't know anything secular; and/or think the girls are laying it on thick/pretending when they cry over "straying away from their parents' convictions" in the manner of wearing pants.  Then I remember that most didn't have the benefit of a knock-down drag-out verbal screaming match with their parents over the "music of the 60s, 70s, and 80's" station in 1985, for example, like yours truly did.  I have a cousin, probably 25 now, who used to carry around a contraband cassette tape he'd made taping Elvis (yes, Presley) off the radio... he and his siblings were all homeschooled to college, where their parents finally had to break down because they're all STEM people and even a talented STEM family tutor couldn't teach them anything new.  Not too long ago, I was watching a music competition show where one of the women contestants showed up and said it was the best time of she and her siblings' lives when the church service ended early enough that they could sneak out and listen to the "last 7 songs of the Top 40 countdown in the car before my parents got there", and I knew exactly what she was talking about. 

It's Jinger's fault that she's being a drama queen crying over pants?  Her tears are sincere, and it's because she's been psychologically warped by her mother, and there's clearly, CLEARLY, as people have been trying to say for years, none of this "tolerant" nonsense in the Duggars' household with Michelle telling her daughters that "wearing only skirts is a personal decision that I have made.  I surely don't expect all of YOU to think of yourselves as hussies if you're wearing pants!"  Any time she says that, somebody should check her nose to see if it's grown longer.  The Duggars, as I was, have clearly all internalized the proper intended message of their parents/the church/etc., regardless of what they preach to make it acceptable to the masses, which is, "pants and secular music are capital-E Evil." 

Imagine being told that most of the normal everyday choices that you incline towards are Evil; and that nobody had better be seeing you doing it, or find out that you indulge in it; or else you or your parents will be shamed until mortification amongst all in your extremely narrow circle of peers.  You yourself will be in a constant state of translating rafts of natural healthy personal impulses that you have into Evil; and then you wonder why the Duggars can't make the simplest of rock-bottom choices without assigning them a moral weight and implication so frightening you'd be surprised you could move down the street after making such a decision on your own. 

You have next to zero sense of self-identity coming out of this type of home situation.  You don't even know how to see yourself; never mind having any impression of how strangers out in the world at large are seeing you. "Well, my sainted authority figure parents, whom I am told are next only to God in importance my life until minimum 18, are barking and shrieking at me that this is "wrong".  They are so insistent and loud, that clearly the loudness and insisting conveys that this must be an extra Evil impulse that I am having, because they can't even discuss it without shrieking at me.  Clearly my natural inclination in any situation is to choose the most Evil of options, and therefore I clearly cannot be trusted to make decisions on my own."

I imagine Lauren might have learned all the reindeer because she has a heathen set of grandparents who believed in playing all sorts of Christmas music at Christmas, for example.  I also imagine that some of the Duggars might know some of the boyband songs when they hear them, because they go to stores and other places that play Muzak; but these probably aren't venues where they have a DJ announcing what is going on.  

As for super lightweight pop music, I hear from English friends that it's a totally different scenario in the UK, where even some of the the manliest football-playing beer-can-crushing gentlemen have no shame about standing up lipsynching or even dancing like idiots to girl- and boy-bands alike; which has always struck me as hilarious.

Edited October 24, 2019 by queenanne

[queenanne]

13 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

It was a bit sad watching Jinger at the Walk of Fame. She had no clue who anyone was. She might as well have been in a foreign country, yet she was in the US walking down a sidewalk with so many universally recognizable names, none of which she recognized.

If I'm remembering correctly, the most popular boy band for guys back then was Boyz II Men.

Ben wasn't having it when Jessa condescendingly tried to make his "hiking in NY" answer make sense. He actually snapped back and said "it's a thing".

Jessa prays for a husband with a beard. Jinger prays that God will allow her to wear pants. God shakes his head and says, "This is not how this works, this is not how this works".

Kade looks like the beast from Beauty and the Beast.

That's cuz Jessa isn't smart enough to know that NY is more than NYC (Adirondacks, anybody?  Poconos?).  There's plenty of hiking territory.  Hell, there's probably lots of hiking territory 25 minutes away in Westchester County for all I know, there are lots of cliffs on the coastal side.

[GeeGolly]

12 minutes ago, queenanne said:

That's cuz Jessa isn't smart enough to know that NY is more than NYC (Adirondacks, anybody?  Poconos?).  There's plenty of hiking territory.  Hell, there's probably lots of hiking territory 25 minutes away in Westchester County for all I know, there are lots of cliffs on the coastal side.

True, but Ben was talking about the city.

[Churchhoney]

2 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Kade looks like the beast from Beauty and the Beast.

True. Unfortunately, though, I don't think some great guy who supports Beauty as a strong independent person who loves knowledge is going to emerge from behind the hair and pudgy features! ☹️

[Churchhoney]

2 hours ago, queenanne said:

I'm always surprised that anyone is surprised when the Duggars don't know anything secular; and/or think the girls are laying it on thick/pretending when they cry over "straying away from their parents' convictions" in the manner of wearing pants.  Then I remember that most didn't have the benefit of a knock-down drag-out verbal screaming match with their parents over the "music of the 60s, 70s, and 80's" station in 1985, for example, like yours truly did.  I have a cousin, probably 25 now, who used to carry around a contraband cassette tape he'd made taping Elvis (yes, Presley) off the radio... he and his siblings were all homeschooled to college, where their parents finally had to break down because they're all STEM people and even a talented STEM family tutor couldn't teach them anything new.  Not too long ago, I was watching a music competition show where one of the women contestants showed up and said it was the best time of she and her siblings' lives when the church service ended early enough that they could sneak out and listen to the "last 7 songs of the Top 40 countdown in the car before my parents got there", and I knew exactly what she was talking about. 

It's Jinger's fault that she's being a drama queen crying over pants?  Her tears are sincere, and it's because she's been psychologically warped by her mother, and there's clearly, CLEARLY, as people have been trying to say for years, none of this "tolerant" nonsense in the Duggars' household with Michelle telling her daughters that "wearing only skirts is a personal decision that I have made.  I surely don't expect all of YOU to think of yourselves as hussies if you're wearing pants!"  Any time she says that, somebody should check her nose to see if it's grown longer.  The Duggars, as I was, have clearly all internalized the proper intended message of their parents/the church/etc., regardless of what they preach to make it acceptable to the masses, which is, "pants and secular music are capital-E Evil." 

Imagine being told that most of the normal everyday choices that you incline towards are Evil; and that nobody had better be seeing you doing it, or find out that you indulge in it; or else you or your parents will be shamed until mortification amongst all in your extremely narrow circle of peers.  You yourself will be in a constant state of translating rafts of natural healthy personal impulses that you have into Evil; and then you wonder why the Duggars can't make the simplest of rock-bottom choices without assigning them a moral weight and implication so frightening you'd be surprised you could move down the street after making such a decision on your own. 

You have next to zero sense of self-identity coming out of this type of home situation.  You don't even know how to see yourself; never mind having any impression of how strangers out in the world at large are seeing you. "Well, my sainted authority figure parents, whom I am told are next only to God in importance my life until minimum 18, are barking and shrieking at me that this is "wrong".  They are so insistent and loud, that clearly the loudness and insisting conveys that this must be an extra Evil impulse that I am having, because they can't even discuss it without shrieking at me.  Clearly my natural inclination in any situation is to choose the most Evil of options, and therefore I clearly cannot be trusted to make decisions on my own."

I imagine Lauren might have learned all the reindeer because she has a heathen set of grandparents who believed in playing all sorts of Christmas music at Christmas, for example.  I also imagine that some of the Duggars might know some of the boyband songs when they hear them, because they go to stores and other places that play Muzak; but these probably aren't venues where they have a DJ announcing what is going on.  

As for super lightweight pop music, I hear from English friends that it's a totally different scenario in the UK, where even some of the the manliest football-playing beer-can-crushing gentlemen have no shame about standing up lipsynching or even dancing like idiots to girl- and boy-bands alike; which has always struck me as hilarious.

Brava. Right on the money.  (unfortunately)

I feel terrible about Jinger's crying. She's been left so insecure in herself that I'm 100 percent sure she was truly afraid that her (hideous) mother would have some rejecting or shaming response to her damn pants...........And now she's married to a guy who's most likely nearly as controlling as her parents. At least he moved her away from them. But I have a hard time imagining Jeremy actually encouraging or helping her to come into her own as an individual. 

[Churchhoney]

2 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

True, but Ben was talking about the city.

Ah, Ben....

Actually, though, when I go to Manhattan, there's something about the shape and nature of the city that means I usually do end up hiking for quite a few miles. I'll start out planning to take a bus/subway/cab from the East Village to Central Park or something but I very often end up walking hiking the whole way, for some reason.  (well, if I'm alone or have a companion who doesn't force me into a motored conveyance ...)  So maybe Bin has the same feelings about New York that I do -- he likes being out on its streets. (....he really should have married Jingle.)

Edited October 24, 2019 by Churchhoney

[libgirl2]

6 hours ago, Bayarea4 said:

After watching this episode, I had three thoughts:

1. Now that he's come out of his shell, JD has been acting dorky and immature. He's so annoying. I liked him better when he was single. He needs to go back into his shell.

2. Most of the other Duggar boys are dull, boring and unfortunate-looking.

3. TLC must be scraping the bottom of the barrel for story ideas. Making a whole segment out of a car breakdown along the highway? I'd rather watch paint dry.

I actually enjoyed the honeymoon scenes. I would have rather have seen more of that. The car bit was dumb.

[Barb23]

2 hours ago, libgirl2 said:

I actually enjoyed the honeymoon scenes. I would have rather have seen more of that. The car bit was dumb.

I liked the honeymoon part when they were showing us the reindeer games & visiting the cathedral. 

What I didn't care for is JD acting like a 14 yr old with his first girlfriend.  As I've said before, all the cutesy wootsy talk really drives me nuts as did his sexual innuendo spiel last week. (Paraphrasing - Keeping his romance bottled up til Abbie came along & then the cap came off.....the bottle getting refilled)  

[Nysha]

12 minutes ago, Barb23 said:

What I didn't care for is JD acting like a 14 yr old with his first girlfriend. 

Which is what he is. All of the Duggar adult kids are emotionally 12-15. Josh is probably the only one who has matured into adulthood, but he's a selfish, lazy, sex pest who should live in a remote cave in a deep dark forest.

[Growsonwalls]

3 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

Brava. Right on the money.  (unfortunately)

I feel terrible about Jinger's crying. She's been left so insecure in herself that I'm 100 percent sure she was truly afraid that her (hideous) mother would have some rejecting or shaming response to her damn pants...........And now she's married to a guy who's most likely nearly as controlling as her parents. At least he moved her away from them. But I have a hard time imagining Jeremy actually encouraging or helping her to come into her own as an individual. 

Hmm. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that even if Jeremy doesn't encourage his wife's independent thoughts and whatever, it's still way better than whatever Jinger had with JB and Michelle, so Jinger is probably happy.

At least with Jeremy Jinger is allowed to:

1) Listen to music

2) Watch TV

3) Wear what she wants

4) Keep her family a reasonable size (we hope)

5) Eat healthier food like sushi

6) Not get abused by her older brother

So it might not be the best situation but it's better. But then again JB and Michelle are basically dead to me after they dragged Jessa and Jill on camera to defend Smuggar abusing them. 

[sATL]

2 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

Hmm. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that even if Jeremy doesn't encourage his wife's independent thoughts and whatever, it's still way better than whatever Jinger had with JB and Michelle, so Jinger is probably happy.

At least with Jeremy Jinger is allowed to:

1) Listen to music

2) Watch TV

3) Wear what she wants

4) Keep her family a reasonable size (we hope)

5) Eat healthier food like sushi

6) Not get abused by her older brother

So it might not be the best situation but it's better. But then again JB and Michelle are basically dead to me after they dragged Jessa and Jill on camera to defend Smuggar abusing them. 

Wonder how Jinger is explaining #4 to nosy JB & M. She's  been married long enough to have two kids..

[Growsonwalls]

3 minutes ago, sATL said:

Wonder how Jinger is explaining #4 to nosy JB & M. She's  been married long enough to have two kids..

They could ask the same of Jill, who has been married long enough for 3 or 4 kids but only has 2. 

[Ohiopirate02]

4 minutes ago, sATL said:

Wonder how Jinger is explaining #4 to nosy JB & M. She's  been married long enough to have two kids..

It's really not that hard to explain this and Jinger can always blame her headship.  Jinger was raised to be "joyfully available" to her husband meaning it is his job to initiate.  There is a lot of leeway in the phrase "leaving your fertility up to God" that many of the Duggar daughters exploit.  I also don't think JB and M want any of their daughters or daughters-in-law to come close to 19 kids.  

[sATL]

17 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

It's really not that hard to explain this and Jinger can always blame her headship.  Jinger was raised to be "joyfully available" to her husband meaning it is his job to initiate.  There is a lot of leeway in the phrase "leaving your fertility up to God" that many of the Duggar daughters exploit.  I also don't think JB and M want any of their daughters or daughters-in-law to come close to 19 kids. 

Why? So they keep their  bragging rights that no offspring could do better than them?

[Jynnan tonnix]

8 minutes ago, sATL said:

Why? So they keep their  bragging rights that no offspring could do better than them?

As good a reason as any...I am sure it's way beyond them to think that maybe having such a large family might not have been the world's greatest idea.

[Absolom]

I have a different view on Jinger crying.  She didn't start tearing up until Michelle talked about how much she loved Jinger.  I think it was hearing words of love from her mother rather than discussing pants that brought out the tear.  

[Tasya]

I personally think that Jinger started wearing pants because she wanted to. I know some think that Jeremy controls her, but I don't see it. I think he's definitely all about their image and may say something if she wore something that he felt was really off, but I don't think he's intervene otherwise. The one who I think is secretly controlling/hard on his wife is actually Ben. I work in an industry where we see a lot of women in abusive situations. A lot of times the men who seem the most passive are really the ones to watch out for. Something about the way Ben and Jessa interact just always gives me a shiver. 

I think that Jeremy probably said "wear what you want" and that was it. As far as her tears, I think that these adults are all warped by their parents and can't be expected to have normal reactions to a lot of things. They will probably just start to be "normal" when they've been away from their parents' influence for a minimum of 10 years. 

[Malvina]

On 10/22/2019 at 7:02 PM, lascuba said:

Tuning in now despite my better judgement.

Just me or did JD look slightly pissed at saying "Greek Orthodox?" 

Funny, because it’s not “Greek Orthodox”, it’s of Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland Denomination. 🤷‍♀️

[lascuba]

3 minutes ago, Malvina said:

Funny, because it’s not “Greek Orthodox”, it’s of Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland Denomination. 🤷‍♀️

All those heathen religions look alike.

[humbleopinion]

Pastor V repeating San Fernando Valley 4 times in a row...the only way it could be more irritating is if he said it with a pretend Mexican accent...like... fine Corinthian leather....

 The Volvos get permission to touch the HOLLYWOOD sign...

from the website...

The Sign has over 13 cameras including motion sensors, infrared cameras, and loudspeakers protecting it and is monitored 24/7 by the LAPD.

[Sew Sumi]

You could see the gate they had to pass through to access the trail down to the sign. That gate is locked except when permission is obtained to open it. 

Another set up by TLC.

[Churchhoney]

6 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

You could see the gate they had to pass through to access the trail down to the sign. That gate is locked except when permission is obtained to open it. 

Another set up by TLC.

Another day at the shoot for the stars of Fictional TeeVee. 

Edited October 24, 2019 by Churchhoney

[Sew Sumi]

1 hour ago, Churchhoney said:

Another day at the shoot for the stars of Fictional TeeVee. 

I can only imagine the liability paperwork they had to sign prior to hiking/sliding down that steep hill.

[Jynnan tonnix]

1 hour ago, humbleopinion said:

Pastor V repeating San Fernando Valley 4 times in a row...the only way it could be more irritating is if he said it with a pretend Mexican accent...like... fine Corinthian leather....

 The Volvos get permission to touch the HOLLYWOOD sign...

from the website...

The Sign has over 13 cameras including motion sensors, infrared cameras, and loudspeakers protecting it and is monitored 24/7 by the LAPD.

To be fair, Ricardo Montalban's accent was actually genuine. And I remember those commercials making me just a tad weak in the knees (and warm in other places) back in the day...

[Marigold]

The Hollywood sign thing irritated me. The Duggars have trashed Hollywood, movies, etc.  Now touching the sign is a story line? I get it was Jinger but it's just annoying.

Also, God is allowing Jinger to wear pants.  What about shorts?  We have seen her in shorts and I know that we saw a few paparazzi shots of her leaning into her car wearing shorts.  Are shorts included in the Jinger-Jesus deal? 

[Westiepeach]

3 minutes ago, Marigold said:

The Hollywood sign thing irritated me. The Duggars have trashed Hollywood, movies, etc.  Now touching the sign is a story line? I get it was Jinger but it's just annoying.

Also, God is allowing Jinger to wear pants.  What about shorts?  We have seen her in shorts and I know that we saw a few paparazzi shots of her leaning into her car wearing shorts.  Are shorts included in the Jinger-Jesus deal? 

So how does one get a direct line to God like the Duggar’s have? I have a few questions for Him...

[MonicaM]

7 minutes ago, Westiepeach said:

So how does one get a direct line to God like the Duggar’s have? I have a few questions for Him...

So do I, and "can I wear pants" isn't on the list!!!!!

[Nysha]

The key to having a direct line to God is knowing His answer before you ask. I've found that people who claim they prayed about something usually get the answer they want. A magic 8 ball is more likely to say no than God.

[Marigold]

God is leading me to wear pants.😏 So self involved.  Like God is worried about your pants.

 Admit you like looking sexy and pretty.  Please don't lie and pretend that God is involved in your fashion choices.  God is NOT talking to you about pants.  It's YOUR desire, not God's.

Such fuckery to sit and pretend and lie. Just dress like a heathen and move along. 

Question:

So all those years they yelled "nike" to these immodestly dressed women...maybe God told that woman to wear a bikini or a mini skirt.  Jana photo shopped a skirt on a girl recently.  Maybe God told the girl to wear the booty shorts and now Jana has defied God??????????????????

Jill must be so jealous.  She didn't get a sit down with Michelle and discuss that nose piercing.  Marcia, Marcia, Marcia! 😁 

Edited October 25, 2019 by Marigold

[queenanne]

19 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

True, but Ben was talking about the city.

I feel we have to give him the benefit of the doubt though, as per the OED (with bolding mine):

the activity of going for long walks, especially in the country or woods.

It doesn't say "solely", and I for one will still colloquially say things like "I've hiked all around the city" as a synonym for "strenuous and long trip on foot across lots of hard pavement for 15,000-20,000 steps"; so I feel I understand and agree with the spirit of his thoughts.  There are also areas of the island of Manhattan that are so steeply graded I was shocked to first come across them; whereas before I came across these side streets, I had this naive and completely wrongheaded thought in my mind that the designers of NYC had graded all the streets down to a charmingly moderate and barely noticeable slope at most (they had not).   

[Spencer Hastings]

The God/pants thing kind of reminds me of when my mom tries to force me to wear frilly dresses to church.  She always claimed that I should look like a girl in God’s house and dress up.  But my logic was that if God is everywhere, then He most definitely sees me at my worst and absolutely knows that I dressed like a little lost boy for most of my childhood but somehow still loved me the same. I get that Jinger had to use Gothard speak to get her point across but I just wish she’d said “God literally does not care what I’m wearing.” 

[GeeGolly]

3 hours ago, queenanne said:

I feel we have to give him the benefit of the doubt though, as per the OED (with bolding mine):

It doesn't say "solely", and I for one will still colloquially say things like "I've hiked all around the city" as a synonym for "strenuous and long trip on foot across lots of hard pavement for 15,000-20,000 steps"; so I feel I understand and agree with the spirit of his thoughts.  There are also areas of the island of Manhattan that are so steeply graded I was shocked to first come across them; whereas before I came across these side streets, I had this naive and completely wrongheaded thought in my mind that the designers of NYC had graded all the streets down to a charmingly moderate and barely noticeable slope at most (they had not).   

So I think Ben is used to having more of a clue to what is being asked during talking heads, than the Duggars. And if I'm remembering correctly, the hiking question was just a question, not a stump-the-Duggars question.

The producer was a tad surprised by Ben's answer. The dutiful, know-it-all wife that is Jessa tried to save Ben and make his answer a 'correct' answer. Ben did a fine job on his own explaining his answer and didn't need Jessa to try and make him look informed.

So it appears to me anyway, that Ben enjoys being a unstumpable Duggar during the talking heads and is growing tired of Jessa condescendingly making Ben 'right' in any situation. Michelle does this with Jim Bob frequently too. It's their passive aggressive way of not publicly disagreeing with their headships, yet sharing their opinion. A Gothard rule work around.

It would have been a non-issue if Ben wasn't so reactive. To me, it gave a glimpse into Ben's and Jessa's dynamic.

What is funny on top of that was Ben's rather cute, but very clueless answer about what Finland is known for - he said scissors. I found his explanation kind of sweet. But that might be because I have sewn my whole life and my kids knew not to use mommy's good scissors, which I think is what Ben was alluding to.

[ShaNaeNae]

I had to laugh when Michelle voice over was saying the word stumble in regards to her bikini wearing days, they showed Jeremy practically stumbling down that hill.  Don't know if that was on purpose. 

[Churchhoney]

9 hours ago, Nysha said:

The key to having a direct line to God is knowing His answer before you ask. I've found that people who claim they prayed about something usually get the answer they want. A magic 8 ball is more likely to say no than God.

Exactly. My watchword when people try to entice me into their religion has always been -- As soon as your God starts telling you things you wouldn't want to hear, I'll start taking your religion seriously. 

Hasn't happened yet. The proselytizers' gods seem to be very obliging that way. 

Edited October 25, 2019 by Churchhoney

[Churchhoney]

7 hours ago, Spencer Hastings said:

The God/pants thing kind of reminds me of when my mom tries to force me to wear frilly dresses to church.  She always claimed that I should look like a girl in God’s house and dress up.  But my logic was that if God is everywhere, then He most definitely sees me at my worst and absolutely knows that I dressed like a little lost boy for most of my childhood but somehow still loved me the same. I get that Jinger had to use Gothard speak to get her point across but I just wish she’d said “God literally does not care what I’m wearing.” 

I sure hope she believes this. But given her emotional reaction when Meeechelle expressed some acceptance, I fear Jingle's still haunted by the suspicion that God may care a lot about this ridiculous thing. 

She's in a weird situation right now, seems to me. On the one hand, this is LA and the people at Jer's new institutions don't share the Gothard dress code or whatever. So there's a new kind of freedom there.

At the same time, though, these new people are also deeply and vehemently misogynistic in all the fundamental senses -- i.e., denying that women are in any way men's equals when it comes to either their connections to God or their license to do anything in the world except serve the at-home needs of their men. And they claim just as loudly as the Gothardites that their misogyny is God's will. And they're every bit as committed to saying that a sexual issue -- even what we'd call a rape or assault -- is always the fault of the woman. 

So while the dress code may be different, women are still held solely responsible by MacArthur and his buddies both for keeping their husbands on the ranch by serving all their sexual wants 24/7  and for preventing men they're not married to from feeling any sexual desire for them or acting on such a desire....And they impose very strict divisions between men's and women's roles in the world, just in general......Those are the exact same "reasons" on which Gothard and company based their asinine dress codes. 

That's a double bind for her, seems to me. If you thought about any of this, it'd be damn hard to know what to conclude......And it might spark confusion, even if you didn't think about it. 

Edited October 25, 2019 by Churchhoney

[queenanne]

7 hours ago, Spencer Hastings said:

The God/pants thing kind of reminds me of when my mom tries to force me to wear frilly dresses to church.  She always claimed that I should look like a girl in God’s house and dress up.  But my logic was that if God is everywhere, then He most definitely sees me at my worst and absolutely knows that I dressed like a little lost boy for most of my childhood but somehow still loved me the same. I get that Jinger had to use Gothard speak to get her point across but I just wish she’d said “God literally does not care what I’m wearing.” 

To some extent I feel like the rationale I always heard was, it's "dressing up" in order to be in the sanctuary proper for respect (presence of God and all that), regardless of the type of clothing you chose; but you don't have to dress up beyond having your ladybits previously covered in order to be in, say, a small meeting room for a midweek Bible study; nor when the youth group spends 15 minutes fore and aft in the lobby of the church, and then 2:30 in a secondhand schoolbus or gym playing dodgeball.  But I've lived in heavily African-American NYC neighborhoods and seen the splendid "church hats", amongst other things, on the older ladies in particular; so I think it is also generational.  Church is a thing for which you "dressed up" because it honored God; because a certain standard was expected; and because you didn't want to stick out like a sore thumb against the standard.  It's funny to hear that the rationale some mothers/grandmothers clearly used is because you wanted to look "ladylike" for God, because I think to some extent that's a clearly "pre-70's" point of view also, before women wearing jeans/dungarees in any situations became commonplace.  I know that sometimes even *I* am surprised by some of the informal getups my fellow (older) congregants show up in for Christmas Eve service; as I always wear at bare minimum my "business casual" pants (and I'm now firmly middle-age by anyone's standards!).

4 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

So I think Ben is used to having more of a clue to what is being asked during talking heads, than the Duggars. And if I'm remembering correctly, the hiking question was just a question, not a stump-the-Duggars question.

The producer was a tad surprised by Ben's answer. The dutiful, know-it-all wife that is Jessa tried to save Ben and make his answer a 'correct' answer. Ben did a fine job on his own explaining his answer and didn't need Jessa to try and make him look informed.

So it appears to me anyway, that Ben enjoys being a unstumpable Duggar during the talking heads and is growing tired of Jessa condescendingly making Ben 'right' in any situation. Michelle does this with Jim Bob frequently too. It's their passive aggressive way of not publicly disagreeing with their headships, yet sharing their opinion. A Gothard rule work around.

It would have been a non-issue if Ben wasn't so reactive. To me, it gave a glimpse into Ben's and Jessa's dynamic.

What is funny on top of that was Ben's rather cute, but very clueless answer about what Finland is known for - he said scissors. I found his explanation kind of sweet. But that might be because I have sewn my whole life and my kids knew not to use mommy's good scissors, which I think is what Ben was alluding to.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure you're 3/4 of the way there; as I remember the "talking head" where Ben was quite pleased with himself when he was asked about "Greek mythology", and his answer was basically a one-word "Hercules", coupled with some smugly self-assured head-nodding and smirking at the camera.  He clearly prides himself on such scraps of worldly knowledge and doesn't want the informal title of "the worldly one" taken away from him; plus, if you actually do know the answer and are using your phrasing colloquially/ to make a more interesting turn of phrase, I can see you getting madder and madder when pedantic people try to make it "make sense".  I generally know what the words I use mean myself, and whether they've got positive, negative, or neutral connotations and in which situation; so I'm a little irritated when I have to explain it unless I know the reference is clearly so esoteric that quite a few people would have to go fishing about to get the answer; like some of the older generations' "Victrola/blancmange/23 Skidoo!" type of comments The Simpsons spool out for Grandpa Simpson and Mr. Burns.

Giggling about your scissors, as I've spent 30 years off and on going into cabinets assuring my mother that no, I'm not going to use the "sewing scissors" to cut my toenails; or the "hair scissors" to cut thread...

Edited October 25, 2019 by queenanne

[humbleopinion]

The next batch of Dugg marry-ables (excluding Jana) are 5 hillbilly chuckleheads who are to be released to court the females in their vicinity...church elders....lock up your daughters!

The spokesman/ring leader, Jed is the worst looking with his mange inspired facial fuzz, speaking wisely with the courting experience of a voyeur....his older brothers as examples...I rolled my eyes so hard they tipped out of my skull....

Jere is the better looking of the twins(very low bar) but, bless his heart, he doesn't have two working brain cells to rub together....

 Sleeping in the limos to save money... think of the bodily fluids on the seats...ewww

Edited October 25, 2019 by humbleopinion

[Barb23]

How did Jed become the ring leader?  Is he the one who was in charge of that young people's seminar a while back?

Poor guy - there were a couple side shots of him & he looked just like Smuggs. 

[queenanne]

On 10/24/2019 at 8:00 AM, Churchhoney said:

Ah, Ben....

Actually, though, when I go to Manhattan, there's something about the shape and nature of the city that means I usually do end up hiking for quite a few miles. I'll start out planning to take a bus/subway/cab from the East Village to Central Park or something but I very often end up walking hiking the whole way, for some reason.  (well, if I'm alone or have a companion who doesn't force me into a motored conveyance ...)  So maybe Bin has the same feelings about New York that I do -- he likes being out on its streets. (....he really should have married Jingle.)

Yeah, I forgot to add that I've once done a nitwitted speed-walk across the entirety of Central Park... on a hard macadam path... in my good interview pumps... because I mixed up the libraries at which I was supposed to be interviewing (east side vs. west); and at the time I was sincerely so broke that there was no way I could squeeze in an additional bus ride, never mind a cab; and this was before yellow cabs got wired to accept credit card swipes.

That definitely felt like "a hike", or at least "a slog". 

And I've been with groups of tourists; say, a friend's set of cousins; and if they're not at all familiar with the city they will propose completely opposite destinations, like the Bronx Zoo AND the Statue of Liberty; or say to you "oh yeah, we'll just walk it"; and then they find out that your/their "oh, it's a little bit of a trek" is like 40 city blocks; only to start wilting after 20.  It would not be unusual for me to reach 8,000 steps/day in the city without even trying; and an average day is 12,000-15,000.  Compared to "sedentary days" I spend with family in the suburbs; or even "days we think we all need to take a long walk for exercise"; this is an unusual amount of walking; because I can't equal it in the country even when I'm specifically trying to get exercise.

[humbleopinion]

Everything Bin spews from his pie hole about NYC comes from the rom-coms he watches to escape his  poo smelly hell...Enchanted, WHMS, Maid in Manhattan, You've Got Mail, Kate and Leopold...

[lascuba]

1 hour ago, Churchhoney said:

I sure hope she believes this. But given her emotional reaction when Meeechelle expressed some acceptance, I fear Jingle's still haunted by the suspicion that God may care a lot about this ridiculous thing. 

She's in a weird situation right now, seems to me. On the one hand, this is LA and the people at Jer's new institutions don't share the Gothard dress code or whatever. So there's a new kind of freedom there.

At the same time, though, these new people are also deeply and vehemently misogynistic in all the fundamental senses -- i.e., denying that women are in any way men's equals when it comes to either their connections to God or their license to do anything in the world except serve the at-home needs of their men. And they claim just as loudly as the Gothardites that their misogyny is God's will. And they're every bit as committed to saying that a sexual issue -- even what we'd call a rape or assault -- is always the fault of the woman. 

So while the dress code may be different, women are still held solely responsible by MacArthur and his buddies both for keeping their husbands on the ranch by serving their all sexual wants 24/7  and for preventing men they're not married to from feeling any sexual desire for them or acting on such a desire....And they impose very strict divisions between men's and women's roles in the world, just in general......Those are the exact same "reasons" Gothard and company imposed their asinine dress codes. 

That's a double bind for her, seems to me. If you thought about any of this, it'd be damn hard to know what to conclude......And it might spark confusion, even if you didn't think about it. 

I think the whole "Free Jinger!" thing (that start on TwoP and then became a whole board) before she was even a teen is a significant factor, maybe even more than the spiritual aspect. The family was aware of how people online talked about them, particularly about how people fantasized that Jinger was a secret rebel. The pressure on Jinger especially to tow the party line for the good of the family must have been immense. I think all the kids got that pressure, especially the girls, which is why no one ever admits to disagreeing with their parent on anything even though they obviously do just based on their actions, but Jinger? Whew. It was her name that became the rallying cry for those that want to "free" the Duggar daughters. She couldn't do anything that would encourage that attitude. So she gets married and starts wearing pants and the internet is awash with "I KNEW IT"s, and she feels this immense guilt for this breech of loyalty to her family. The "Jesus said it's ok" excuse wasn't for  Michelle's benefit, it was for the audience, because no way can she say that she's doing what she's always wanted to do to people who talk shit about her beloved parents.

Jill started wearing pants first without the transition period of leggings under a long tunic, but despite growing up with the same beliefs and likely being more devout than Jinger, I highly doubt she cried over the decision or felt the need to explain herself to Michelle. Probably because Jill, as the perfect Duggar daughter, was never made to feel guilty about keeping up the family's public facade of completely uniformity and contentment.

[Oldernowiser]

Does anyone really know how anybody Duggar really feels about anything? They’ve been actors on television forever. “Reality” television never is, it’s just scripted and edited to look like it’s all candid and authentic.

It’s entirely possible that Ma couldn’t give a rodent’s behind about Jinger wearing pants at this point but the producers decided it could fill up three minutes of weary programming and be a “moment.” God knows they must be beyond desperate for content.

[lascuba]

30 minutes ago, Oldernowiser said:

Does anyone really know how anybody Duggar really feels about anything? They’ve been actors on television forever. “Reality” television never is, it’s just scripted and edited to look like it’s all candid and authentic.

It’s entirely possible that Ma couldn’t give a rodent’s behind about Jinger wearing pants at this point but the producers decided it could fill up three minutes of weary programming and be a “moment.” God knows they must be beyond desperate for content.

Of course no one knows how any of these people truly feel. If that was the standard, message boards and blogs about reality tv wouldn't exist. It's just fun to speculate based on what they say, what they do, and what me know of their community. I don't think many people are under the impression that we actually know these people.

I've long been under the assumption that pants wearing isn't the huge deal to Michelle and JB that people assume, but more an affectation of the family brand that they refuse to let go. There's an old picture of a young Jinger wearing track pants at the TTH that some family friend posted. Jessa posted a picture of herself by a pool wearing board shorts. I suspect plenty of them wear pants when the cameras are off.

[GeeGolly]

I think that Michelle would prefer her daughters continue to wear pants to validate her belief to herself and the rest of the viewing world. But as Michelle said, as long as Jinger is toeing the rest company line, all is good.

Just in case, Michelle may throw out a prayer or two asking God to allow them to continue to fight for Jesus while wearing pants and asking him to keep their reservations in the special place in heaven. Cuz, you never know.

[Churchhoney]

6 hours ago, queenanne said:

Yeah, I forgot to add that I've once done a nitwitted speed-walk across the entirety of Central Park... on a hard macadam path... in my good interview pumps... because I mixed up the libraries at which I was supposed to be interviewing (east side vs. west); and at the time I was sincerely so broke that there was no way I could squeeze in an additional bus ride, never mind a cab; and this was before yellow cabs got wired to accept credit card swipes.

That definitely felt like "a hike", or at least "a slog". 

I once ran to a job interview in a scenario like that -- about a quarter mile in interview pumps and then barefoot -- because I couldn't find a cab, it was so long ago I didn't yet carry a cellphone, the subway didn't go where the office was, and the bus that was supposed to go that way didn't show up as scheduled (and I got passed by by a bus because I was between bus stops when it finally went by me).

I appeared way late, soaked with sweat and with bleeding feet....figured I was doomed. But I got the job. I told them the story -- that I'd had to run from Dupont Circle. And I guess they figured I really really wanted that job. (I did. One of the best jobs I ever had. So....worth the horror. But still...))

I actually didn't know how far I'd run on those hot summer sidewalks until I got home and looked up the distance on the map. It was more than three and a half miles. And I'd run (or run limping) -- in a pencil skirt -- almost the whole way......

Don't tell me you can't take a serious hike in the city! 

Edited October 25, 2019 by Churchhoney

[lookeyloo]

1 hour ago, Churchhoney said:

I once ran to a job interview in a scenario like that -- about a quarter mile in interview pumps and then barefoot -- because I couldn't find a cab, it was so long ago I didn't yet carry a cellphone, the subway didn't go where the office was, and the bus that was supposed to go that way didn't show up as scheduled (and I got passed by by a bus because I was between bus stops when it finally went by me).

I appeared way late, soaked with sweat and with bleeding feet....figured I was doomed. But I got the job. I told them the story -- that I'd had to run from Dupont Circle. And I guess they figured I really really wanted that job. (I did. One of the best jobs I ever had. So....worth the horror. But still...))

I actually didn't know how far I'd run on those hot summer sidewalks until I got home and looked up the distance on the map. It was more than three and a half miles. And I'd run (or run limping) -- in a pencil skirt -- almost the whole way......

Don't tell me you can't take a serious hike in the city! 

Similar happened to me once, but not an interview.  It was job related in DC.  I had to meet with the "feds" who managed the federal program that the states administered - very important.  I can't remember why, but I do remember walking far in hose, heels and a suit in 90 plus degree weather and stopping in the restroom to blot with paper towels.  It was not a fun experience.