formerlyfreedom October 20, 2019 Share October 20, 2019 Quote As Angela relives haunting memories of an attack on her family, she detains a mysterious man who claims responsibility for Tulsa's most recent murder. Elsewhere, an original play is performed for an audience of one. Airing Sunday, October 27, 2019. Link to comment
AimingforYoko October 28, 2019 Share October 28, 2019 The ep title is obviously the painting Judd had in the hall. I don't buy Judd in the Klan, like Angela said, "It was really fuckin' easy to find." So, the boy turns out to be Grandpa Abar, and he literally has friends in high places? And WTF is Ozy up to with his cast of clones? 1 Link to comment
mac123x October 28, 2019 Share October 28, 2019 Well, that certainly... was an episode of a TV program. I found myself checking my phone occasionally, or staring off into the middle distance with a blank expression on my face, like most of the actors on the show. I was having a difficult time mustering any enthusiasm. Veidt's servants are robots, or clones, or robot-clones. I think we all guessed that last week. Are we to assume that another year has passed for him, since he had two candles on the dessert? If I understood the WWII flashback correctly, Louis Gosset Jr was the younger boy, not the soldier, so I think that would make him the baby that got rescued from the massacre, not the young boy. Frankly the whole flashback timelines are confusing, because Louis Gosset had that "Protect This Boy" note that was written in 1921, but the front of the note was the Nazi pamphlet from WWII. I would attribute that to something clever coming up in the future, but this is Damon Lindelhof we're talking about. He and clever writing have never shared a meal. I'm holding on until Jean Smart gets there and I hope she can salvage this. 19 minutes ago, AimingforYoko said: The ep title is obviously the painting Judd had in the hall. When the camera unartfully zoomed in on the painting, I yelled "Metaphor!" at the TV. Then I wondered what exactly it was metaphoring. Symbolism for symbolism sake, another Lindelhof special. 5 Link to comment
Dev F October 28, 2019 Share October 28, 2019 5 minutes ago, mac123x said: Frankly the whole flashback timelines are confusing, because Louis Gosset had that "Protect This Boy" note that was written in 1921, but the front of the note was the Nazi pamphlet from WWII. I would attribute that to something clever coming up in the future, but this is Damon Lindelhof we're talking about. He and clever writing have never shared a meal. It was a World War I pamphlet, so there's nothing weird about the chronology as presented. 2 16 Link to comment
AimingforYoko October 28, 2019 Share October 28, 2019 6 minutes ago, mac123x said: If I understood the WWII flashback correctly, Louis Gosset Jr was the younger boy, not the soldier, so I think that would make him the baby that got rescued from the massacre, not the young boy. It was WW I, and the soldier was Grandpa Abar's dad. That's why they said that things would be different in Germany. They wouldn't have in WWII. 3 5 Link to comment
Machiabelly October 28, 2019 Share October 28, 2019 Who played the exhusband? I know him but can't figure out from where. Link to comment
formerlyfreedom October 28, 2019 Author Share October 28, 2019 This episode sucked me in even more than the first one did. I like that we got a few questions answered from the last episode, but probably had at least twice as many raised. Regina King is incredible. And Jim Beaver! Loved seeing him, although he definitely seems to be up to no good. 7 Link to comment
mac123x October 28, 2019 Share October 28, 2019 3 minutes ago, Machiabelly said: Who played the exhusband? I know him but can't figure out from where. Jim Beaver, Bobby from Supernatural. Since the kids are her former partner's children, I assume he's an uncle. 1 2 Link to comment
rwlevin October 28, 2019 Share October 28, 2019 Uh oh, we need another Timmy...err, Mr. Phillips. i don’t think I’d want to be the new Mr. Phillips. we know the boy became Louis Gossett Jr. What happened to the baby? Link to comment
Machiabelly October 28, 2019 Share October 28, 2019 24 minutes ago, mac123x said: Jim Beaver, Bobby from Supernatural. Since the kids are her former partner's children, I assume he's an uncle. Thanks. I saw Jim Beaver in the credits after I asked. He could be the grandfather. Link to comment
Cardie October 28, 2019 Share October 28, 2019 1 hour ago, rwlevin said: Uh oh, we need another Timmy...err, Mr. Phillips. i don’t think I’d want to be the new Mr. Phillips. we know the boy became Louis Gossett Jr. What happened to the baby? Hard to tell but she could be Angela’s grandmother. I guess it depends on whether she and Will grew up as siblings. Link to comment
WritinMan October 28, 2019 Share October 28, 2019 I watched the first two episodes through my free HBO preview and I have to say I think this show is pretty silly. Exactly the kind of ridiculousness I expect from Damon Lindelof. I don't think I'm going to miss not being able to watch the rest of the show. 2 Link to comment
LoveLeigh October 28, 2019 Share October 28, 2019 Who is the Jeremy Irons character? He is batshit crazy. Link to comment
revbfc October 28, 2019 Share October 28, 2019 7 minutes ago, DakotaLavender said: Who is the Jeremy Irons character? He is batshit crazy. He is Adrian Veidt. For more on him (and background on the world as a whole), I strongly suggest you read the comic book from the 80’s. 2 Link to comment
Ubiquitous October 28, 2019 Share October 28, 2019 On 10/20/2019 at 6:23 PM, saoirse said: As Angela relives haunting memories of an attack on her family, she detains a mysterious man who claims responsibility for Tulsa's most recent murder. Elsewhere, an original play is performed for an audience of one. I didn't bother to watch this ep when it aired b/c I want to be able to rewind and look at the Easter eggs, not that they will ultimately mean anything other than glimpses into their world. 8 minutes ago, DakotaLavender said: Who is the Jeremy Irons character? He is batshit crazy. I don't think they have said it yet, but the general consensus is Adrian Veidt, AKA Ozymandus from the original comic and movie. 1 Link to comment
Tachi Rocinante October 29, 2019 Share October 29, 2019 If nothing else, this show educated me on a dark day in our nation's history I was not taught in school. 18 Link to comment
rmontro October 29, 2019 Share October 29, 2019 Well, I did think this episode was more interesting than the last one. I'm still not sold on this, I still have some reservations, but I'll probably stick it out for the season. I kind of get the impression that sometimes they're doing weird stuff just to do weird stuff, but we'll see. 1 Link to comment
Lantern7 October 29, 2019 Share October 29, 2019 Continuing to DVR this while I watch Supergirl. It's probably for the best, because I don't want to drown in a hailstorm of Easter Eggs the night before I have to get back to work. Damn, The Watchmaker's Son looks like something that could've been written and performed long ago. Without the one guy getting flame-broiled to death, of course. German brass wrote letters in English trying to get black U.S. soldiers on their side during World War I. Wow. The sheer balls of such an idea. More intense shit. I should probably rewatch. And maybe go online for the background stuff. Like the last six (four?) pages of most issues of the original miniseries. Link to comment
Dev F October 29, 2019 Share October 29, 2019 On 10/27/2019 at 9:13 PM, mac123x said: When the camera unartfully zoomed in on the painting, I yelled "Metaphor!" at the TV. Then I wondered what exactly it was metaphoring. Symbolism for symbolism sake, another Lindelhof special. I think this is one of the reasons I'm enjoying the series way, way more than some other folks -- because when faced with a seemingly incomprehensible symbol like this, my instinct is not just to assume it's meaningless but to work out what it does mean. The original painting Comanche Feats of Martial Horsemanship depicts the technique by which a Comanche warrior would drop to one side of his horse while closing on an enemy, staying out of sight and out of reach until he was in range and then springing up and attacking. That's Angela's fear about Judd, right? That he might have been hiding his true intentions behind his badge, preparing to spring up and betray them all when the time was right, like the Kavalry did on White Night? And, of course, the episode title reverses the construction -- "Martial Feats of Comanche Horsemanship" -- suggesting some element of appropriation, another martial force taking the Comanche technique for their own. And isn't that basically what Angela does? Fearing that Judd may have hidden his true intentions to get close to her, she hides her own intentions to get close to him -- literally dropping to the floor, hiding behind a shield of grief and helplessness, then springing up and penetrating Judd's most closely guarded spaces. And that idea of people becoming what they battle against is one of the central focuses of the series -- Nixon's authoritarian daddy state giving way to Redford's authoritarian nanny state, African Americans wielding the power of law enforcement against the white supremacists who previously wielded it against them, and so on and so forth. After all, the shields people are hiding behind are not just shields of passivity and postponement. The horsemanship metaphor, after all, is about a galloping meat shield, action hiding behind another action that has destructive force of its own -- like the Snyderized version of Hooded Justice crashing through a window and unleashing murder everywhere, then talking about how that's all just a mask to hide his rage. 9 14 Link to comment
LoveLeigh October 29, 2019 Share October 29, 2019 (edited) Never mind.... the show is very confusing for me so most of my participation will go to the questions thread. Edited October 29, 2019 by DakotaLavender Link to comment
AnimeMania October 29, 2019 Share October 29, 2019 34 minutes ago, Dev F said: -- Nixon's authoritarian daddy state giving way to Redford's authoritarian nanny state, African Americans wielding the power of law enforcement against the white supremacists who previously wielded it against them, and so on and so forth. I wonder what is the percentage of African Americans in Tulsa's law enforcement, since most of the Police we are following/familiar with are not predominately African American. I wonder how Angela survived the White Night, since where the flashback ended, she should have died. What was her husband doing while this was happening? 3 Link to comment
thuganomics85 October 29, 2019 Share October 29, 2019 Not sure if it was intentional or not, but the whole Parental Warning bit before they cut to the "show within a show" about the crime-fighting hero (Hooded Justice?) made me chuckle because it made me think of all the warnings almost every HBO show ever tends to have. The network is wild! Cool seeing more familiar faces like Jim Beaver, James Wolk, and Robert Ray Wisdom. This show certainly is attracting some major talent! So, Louis Gossett Jr.'s character is not only the kid from the flashbacks, but Angela/Regina King is his granddaughter? Also, he clearly has friends in high places! Not sure what to make of Judd possibly being a former KKK member or even a member of the Calvary. Hopefully we'll get a few more flashbacks, so we can get more Don Johnson. The stuff with Jeremy Irons is just nuts! Certainly looks like his servants are either robots or clones, and he is all about killing them off for entertainment. And they seem to find it an honor to do so. Crazy! Still a lot going on here, but I'm still enjoying the ride! 3 Link to comment
Enigma X October 29, 2019 Share October 29, 2019 I get a feeling that we are getting a misdirect to believe Judd is part of the Kavalry. I even noticed that his wound in the hospital when Angela woke was on the same side where she stabbed the Kavalry guy. So, I think we should now be wondering if that was him who she stabbed. I don't think Judd is Kavalry, or, at least, I hope not. 1 Link to comment
Joimiaroxeu October 29, 2019 Share October 29, 2019 Did Germany seriously make an effort to recruit Black GIs or was that just a Tokyo Rose kind of thing? Human drones. Heh. Looks like the technology wasn't quite perfected though. Regina King must have some of the best career management and representation in Hollywood. She gets amazing roles that she kills in. 5 Link to comment
Chicago Redshirt October 29, 2019 Share October 29, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said: Did Germany seriously make an effort to recruit Black GIs or was that just a Tokyo Rose kind of thing? The pamphlet was based on real propaganda efforts by the WWI Germans, apparently. Whether they actually treated any defectors well or what, who knows? ETA: here's a link to a story about the fliers that inspired the one in the episode:https://slate.com/culture/2019/10/watchmen-world-war-i-flyer-92nd-infantry-real-hallo-boys.html Edited October 29, 2019 by Chicago Redshirt 7 1 Link to comment
TiffanyNichelle October 29, 2019 Share October 29, 2019 I don't know why it took me until this episode to realize that Angela's husband's name is Calvin. Brenda finally married Calvin! Anyway, the idea that Judd was part of the 7K and that he took part or at least knew about the White Night makes me sad but also curious to know what his endgame was. Was he part of the push to get all the cops wearing masks then? To what end? 8 Link to comment
Cardie October 29, 2019 Share October 29, 2019 Although I’m not sure what Judd’s endgame was, I do think he was one of the 7K who invaded Angela’s house on White Night and he saved her and her husband for some reason. Also, is anyone else feeling that she and Judd had an affair? 3 Link to comment
Mr. Sparkle October 29, 2019 Share October 29, 2019 1 hour ago, Cardie said: I do think he was one of the 7K who invaded Angela’s house on White Night and he saved her and her husband for some reason. Also, is anyone else feeling that she and Judd had an affair? Yes on Part 1, no on Part 2. 3 Link to comment
gibasi October 30, 2019 Share October 30, 2019 (edited) On 10/28/2019 at 11:26 AM, revbfc said: He is Adrian Veidt. For more on him (and background on the world as a whole), I strongly suggest you read the comic book from the 80’s. I believe that the show should be able to stand on its own. There are a lot of books adapted for movies and it isn’t necessary to have read the book first. I never read any of George R R Martin’s books but watched all of Game of Thrones. This show cannot stand on its own and so I am out. Visually it is very appealing and it has a lot of good actors but it isn enough. Edited October 30, 2019 by gibasi 1 3 Link to comment
Tryangle October 30, 2019 Share October 30, 2019 40 minutes ago, gibasi said: I believe that the show should be able to stand on its own. There are a lot of books adapted for movies and it isn’t necessary to have read the book first. I never read any of George R R Martin’s books but watched all of Game of Thrones. This show cannot stand on its own and so I am out. Visually it is very appealing and it has a lot of good actors but it isn enough. I think that's the likely fate of this show. My wife watched the episode with me and was bewildered about these other characters. Now perhaps she'd understand a bit more about Dr Manhattan from E1, but Veidt himself, Hooded Justice, the squids, without at least some knowledge of the comic or its adaptation, a new viewer isn't going to stick around. Easter eggs are awesome for myself and others who've read the comic multiple times, but everyone else? A shame because the general ideas put forward (reparations and resentment the most striking example) should be intriguing and interesting. 2 Link to comment
revbfc October 30, 2019 Share October 30, 2019 1 hour ago, gibasi said: I believe that the show should be able to stand on its own. I’m not going to defend the show for not making sense to you. I’m not so invested in it that I feel an obligation to do so. All I was saying is that many of your questions about the show can be answered by reading a comic book that the showrunners are treating like an unfilmed first season. Was it a great idea to not make a first season based on the book? Probably not, but the source material is a fairly quick and fun read. Link to comment
plurie October 30, 2019 Share October 30, 2019 I didn't read the graphic novels (my mind doesn't "grok" graphic novels), and I don't think I saw the movie, but I'm not really having trouble following the tv series so far. Even though I don't know who "Veidt" is, I expect that it'll become clearer as the show unfolds. 13 Link to comment
rmontro October 30, 2019 Share October 30, 2019 11 minutes ago, plurie said: Even though I don't know who "Veidt" is, I expect that it'll become clearer as the show unfolds. If you haven't seen the original story, it might not be. Link to comment
Chicago Redshirt October 30, 2019 Share October 30, 2019 (edited) We'll have to see as the show plays out. This episode used the device of "The Watchmaker's Son" and the conversation between Will and Angela to tell a rookie viewer probably most of what they "need" to know about Doctor Manhattan: that a lab accident turned a scientist into a strange blue being with pretty unlimited superpowers who is currently thought to be on Mars. Presumably, there will be similar backstory given on Ozy and whichever other characters come straight from OG Watchmen. It may help enrich things if you are familiar with the backstory on a deeper level, but so far I don't think there has been anything that one can't follow along on its own terms. Then again, I understand people's mileage may vary on this. Edited October 30, 2019 by Chicago Redshirt 9 Link to comment
Chicago Redshirt October 30, 2019 Share October 30, 2019 On 10/29/2019 at 9:05 AM, Joimiaroxeu said: Human drones. Heh. Looks like the technology wasn't quite perfected though. The paparazzi in this episode were called "Moths," and they appear to be using technology that was derived from one of the older superheros from the comics, Mothman. We didn't see much of Mothman in action in the comics. Pretty much all I remember it being said was that he went insane and was in an asylum somewhere, as of the 80s. So it wasn't clear if he could actually fly or if he was more like Batman and just for some reason patterned himself after a moth. 1 1 Link to comment
AnimeMania October 30, 2019 Share October 30, 2019 Is it bad that I would rather be watching the show about some guy beating up people in the grocery store? 2 1 Link to comment
Joimiaroxeu October 30, 2019 Share October 30, 2019 Quote I believe that the show should be able to stand on its own I wholeheartedly agree with this. I saw the Watchmen movie but don't remember much about it. I might get around to reading the graphic novel but I'm really resisting doing that. IMO it wavers between laziness and arrogance on the producer's part if they can't adapt source material in a way that makes a show/movie based upon that material accessible to any potential viewer. I'm thinking I shouldn't have to do homework to understand a TV show. 8 Link to comment
Chicago Redshirt October 30, 2019 Share October 30, 2019 I admittedly am coming from a place of privilege, having read the comics back when they originally came out individually and the graphic novel quite a few times since (albeit not for a few years). But I don't think there is much that has been shown in the first few episodes that absolutely relies on having read the comics to understand. There's stuff that you might better appreciate if you have, like the Moths I mentioned a few posts above. But it seems to be offering its backstory at the same clip as stuff like "Lost." 4 Link to comment
Chicago Redshirt October 30, 2019 Share October 30, 2019 Random weird thought: assuming Ozy's servants are clones, who are they clones of? Could it be that he actually cloned Jon Osterman and Janey Slater? 3 Link to comment
formerlyfreedom October 30, 2019 Author Share October 30, 2019 Let’s please keep conversation to the episode and episode-adjacent; questions and possibly book-related follow up can be taken to the Questions Asked, Answers Given topic, while strictly book-related conversation should be in the Book Talk topic. Thank you! 1 Link to comment
Dev F October 30, 2019 Share October 30, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said: It may help enrich things if you are familiar with the backstory on a deeper level, but so far I don't think there has been anything that one can't follow along on its own terms. That's basically my feeling, though I might articulate it in a less flattering way. That is, instead of thinking the Mysterious Castle Man storyline works equally well whether you're familiar with the source material or not, I think it works equally badly. As someone who's very familiar with the original graphic novel, I find that storyline to be the least interesting part of a show I've otherwise found quite fascinating. To me, basically, it feels like Lindelof is writing that part of the story in Lost mystery-box mode: Here's something that makes no sense now, but eventually it will be something neat! I much prefer when he writes in Leftovers mode, where even things that are mysterious have clear resonances with what's going on with the characters and the themes of the episode. Is Castle Man's willingness to sacrifice Mr. Phillips to put on his play meant to reflect how the other characters are shielding their true intentions behind masks and meat shields? Like . . . maybe? But it's impossible to really tell when the writers have yet to give us any clue as to what Castle Man's larger goals actually are. Edited October 30, 2019 by Dev F Link to comment
BellyLaughter October 30, 2019 Share October 30, 2019 9 hours ago, gibasi said: I believe that the show should be able to stand on its own. There are a lot of books adapted for movies and it isn’t necessary to have read the book first. I never read any of George R R Martin’s books but watched all of Game of Thrones. This show cannot stand on its own and so I am out. Visually it is very appealing and it has a lot of good actors but it isn enough. I think this is the way I am feeling too.... I liked all the promo stuff and was eagerly awaiting the series hoping I could enjoy it without a comic background but nope..... it’s just not working for me..... and I absolutely hate the parts with Jeremy Irons and just keep muttering the words “what the hell?” everytime he and his weird robots appear.... Sadly I’m done.... 2 Link to comment
Cardie October 31, 2019 Share October 31, 2019 The meat of the Tulsa story is perfectly understandable without any knowledge of the source material. An America plagued by systemic white supremacist violence somehow flipped the script and now a systemic progressive regime is starting to look just as bad and is fueling a white supremacist resistance. This story is set in the Watchmen world but would work just as well in any speculative fiction universe. Now, Castle Man seems weirdly out of place and only remotely interesting for the comic’s Easter Eggs. Otherwise, a political satire set in an alternate universe, no need to know why it’s raining squid. 11 Link to comment
Midnight Cheese October 31, 2019 Share October 31, 2019 (edited) I haven’t read the source material and think the show is excellent, challenging, and impeccably acted by Regina King in particular. This is just rank speculation but I wonder if Angela has an enemy of sorts closer in: Calvin (name is close to Kavalry; when she was nearly killed, Angela just said Cal, Kal, Cal, to her would-be (Judd?) assasin.) Anyway: Calvin is perfect, perfectly sexy and supportive, happy to let his incredible wife take the lead, tell him what to do, tell him if he’s safe. His perfect ghost costume to entertain the adopted white children he loves against their racist relative who has visitation rights, was homemade in a perfect Dad way, but damn if it didn’t look close to Judd’s secret Klan/Kavalry ensemble. Maybe Angela’s long-lost grandfather is getting to the scene just in time. Edited October 31, 2019 by Midnight Cheese 2 3 Link to comment
Eneya November 1, 2019 Share November 1, 2019 I heard an interesting idea who the old guy is and that he was the first superhero, the justice guy. 🙂 That... makes a lot of sense, since it ties up with the anger and with the fact that the supposed real identity of him was murdered. In the comics his skin is NOT seen, he wears gloves. 🙂 1 1 Link to comment
JTMacc99 November 2, 2019 Share November 2, 2019 On 10/30/2019 at 1:57 PM, AnimeMania said: Is it bad that I would rather be watching the show about some guy beating up people in the grocery store? No. There is a lot going on in this universe. Enjoying the stories about the crazy results more than the stories about how we got here is okay in my book. Link to comment
Chicago Redshirt November 3, 2019 Share November 3, 2019 On 11/1/2019 at 11:51 AM, Eneya said: I heard an interesting idea who the old guy is and that he was the first superhero, the justice guy. 🙂 That... makes a lot of sense, since it ties up with the anger and with the fact that the supposed real identity of him was murdered. In the comics his skin is NOT seen, he wears gloves. 🙂 I was thinking about this as well. It makes sense on a number of fronts: The Tulsa race riot scene from last episode could be seen like a superhero origin story. Will was watching a film whose hero's catchphrase "Trust in the law" was completely undermined by the law failing to do anything about the riot. I could see Will growing up to work through the issues he had growing up by becoming a mask. Having somewhat of an obsession with lynching fits in with his having a noose around his neck. Also, a lot of the Watchmen comic was about the generational structure of superheroes. Having someone linking the Golden Age to the Modern Age like Will and Angela would makes sense. 1 Link to comment
ElectricBoogaloo November 3, 2019 Share November 3, 2019 (edited) On a shallow note, Regina King looks amazing in that long black coat. I'm glad that we got some answers/explanations to some things that were mentioned in the first episode (like Topher and his sisters were Regina's murdered partner's kids and how Will is tied to the opening scene in the pilot as well as how he is tied to Angela). I had to laugh at the whole "skeletons in the closet" conversation that Angela and Will had. As she pointed out, that was a little too easy to find. Edited November 4, 2019 by ElectricBoogaloo Missing some words! 2 Link to comment
DearEvette November 3, 2019 Share November 3, 2019 I read the original graphic novel several times, but the last time was almost 20n years ago so while I remember large scale things, I don't remember any real details. On some level I do feel a completionist's need to know the background and context, but even so I think the show is setting up some interesting stories outside the references to the original - Angela's grandfather is all kinds of intriguing. The show has made him so interesting. I just want to know all his secrets. Both his and Judd's. - The events of The White Night need to be revisited, obviously. The flashback cut off right when the guy was about to deliver a double tap to Angela's head. So how she got out of that is important. It really does not look good for Judd. The significance of the following scene of him in the hospital with her really reads like he set it up and saved her in order to cement a relationship with her for some reason. I cant help but think tit is because of Angela's family background since it is also the same episode we learn that she is related to Will and Will was somehow involved in Judd's murder. - Wonder how Angela got custody of her partner's kids and they call her 'Mom'. Saw she got shot in the abdomen, wonder if she can't have kids of her own. - The power vacuum in the police department. The only real thing I don't think works without context is Adrien Viedt. His storyline seems the only one that overtly references the original novel. Also, imo, his storyline (so far) is the weakest and least interesting. Outside of the plot, I think Regina King just killed it in this episode. Just her wordless acting alone. There is the shot of her face (so expressive even under the make up) when she is clutching at Judd's legs as she's helping to lower him which seemed like a bookend to the expression on her face when she is helping Will out of his wheelchair and she she finds herself not just helping him but embracing him. Both scenes her face had an utterly heartbroken look. Honorable mention to Looking Glass, the way Tim Blake Nelson delivered the 'Why am I crying under this mask' line was perfect in its pathos. 8 Link to comment
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