S05.E07: Episode 7

[PrincessPurrsALot]

Quote

Noah and Whitney travel to Montauk to begin planning the wedding. Noah gets a concerning call. Armed with new information about her mother's death, Joanie confronts a stranger.

Original air date 2019.10.06

[LoveLeigh]

I thought this was just awful and ridiculous. Are they kidding me? There was not one moment of the Joanie part that even rang true. I think the problem was not just the writer's decision to have old Ben sit there and spill his guts. I think the actor who played Old Ben is just a lousy actor. He captured none of young Ben's sinister and menacing personality. The whole thing was a joke. I can't believe this was the writer's choice to craft such a silly episode. Old Ben just sits there and his confession rolls out of his mouth like that? And he had some alibi preplanned for the very day Joanie would appear and predictably come back with the police? Old Ben waited 30 years for that moment? And I waited over a year? For that crap? 

Joanie sits there and listens to old Ben spill his guts and only later does she remember Alison died by drowning? And when Joanie arrives with the police and old Ben has all his ducks in a row to flip the script, it played out like sone old Alfred Hitchcock episode from 1960. 

And why did Helen's mother say Noah killed Scottie? Didn't Helen spill the truth about that car accident two seasons ago at a family dinner? Does Helen's mom also have dementia?

And I have to look back to refresh my own memory about this "Eden" who was his publicity agent for the book. Looks like Noah gets caught up in #MeToo. 

I loved this show and still love it but good grief, this episode was total crap. 

Edited October 6, 2019 by DakotaLavender

[scrb]

Noah’s POV - This is a new Whitney this season.  She’s all grown up (though in that dress, she looked like shouldn’t have skipped the lobster roll lunch) and so responsible.

Wasn’t until she called the saleswoman at the bridal shop "c***" that the old Whitney resurfaced — that Sacha groupie would have fucked Noah too until Whitney stormed out.

Then she started asking Noah why he left the family, before confessing to cheating herself.

Now they could have made this a major plot, with Noah seeing how his infidelity made his children unhappy and possibly sabotaging Whitney’s ability to form relationships herself.

She says they were happy but of course Noah felt emasculated and lorded her parents’ money over him, how it gave them a very comfortable life that he couldn’t provide himself.

It wasn’t the only reason but it was a reason that he was open to cheating when the opportunity arose.

But instead they’re all overmatching the place with plots this season.  They must have whiteboarded a lot of ideas for how they’d continue after killing off Alison and getting eid of Cole as well.

Looks like they decided to throw all those ideas into the season, including this last-minute #MeToo thing.  Yes unreliable narrator and all that but Noah wasn’t forcing himself on women.  Of course from his POV, they were throwing themselves at him left and right.

If they wanted to say that sexual abusers think all women want them, they could have told that story years ago, not in the last few episodes.

Edited October 6, 2019 by scrb

[scrb]

Joanie’s POV — I couldn’t believe Joanie chose to confront Ben directly.  And if he expected to show up, he knows his cover was BS if Joanie could figure it out.

How did he know that Joanie would figure it out and come alone?

But he knew her so well that he prepared a trap for her, yet is surprised when she wants to be choked?

Is he even a licensed doctor or just pushing this voodoo EMDR thing?  When he pulled this therapy with Alison, people were rolling their eyes.  Why would the cops accept his assessment of Joanie?  Real doctors wouldn’t just show patient info. to cops either.

Ben’s confessions were suppose to be shocking but now they seem to want to wrap it all up in a bow and presumably have Joanie find a way to bust him.

Or will they go dark and have Ben kill Joanie too?

[Stad15]

3 hours ago, scrb said:

Or will they go dark and have Ben kill Joanie too?

I don't think so.  He had a chance when he had Joanie on the floor in the chokehold.  Little did he know that she wanted it.  So she said "harder, harder" then Ben figuered out she's miserable with her life and has suicidal thoughts.  So he said "I not giving you the satisfaction of dying" or something like that.

[Stad15]

I'm a little disappointed that there was really no twist like I thought there would be.  Ben just told Joanie his version of what happened that night, which wasn't all that different than Alison Part 2 last season.  The only difference I noticed were he said they tried to have sex that night, but he couldn't perform, and when she tried to run for the door, he grabbed her arm, but lost grip and she slammed into the bookcase, causing the statue to hit her on the head.

Maybe Joanie should have worn a wire tap from the police or micro voice recorder from the year 2055.

[LydiaE]

Wow. This was just awful and boring to boot. The plot, the writing, and the acting are horrible and cringeworthy.

Why is Louisa so spiteful and bossy to almost random people? Why did Noah have to violently veer his vehicle off the road and slam on the brakes in order to cope with that reporter’s phone call? Do the writers not understand how people with dementia behave? They don’t lose their most fundamental personal characteristics and they don’t create alternate personalities for themselves.

Anna Paquin and the actor playing elderly Ben are such horrible actors with so little range that the scene was ridiculous and unbearably boring.

So I guess Sasha Mann is behind Eden’s allegations? Noah is such an utter failure at life.

[Stad15]

1 minute ago, LydiaE said:

Why did Noah have to violently veer his vehicle off the road and slam on the brakes in order to cope with that reporter’s phone call?

Because the reporter told him he was being accused of sexual harrassment, and that was the first time he heard of it.

3 minutes ago, LydiaE said:

and the actor playing elderly Ben are such horrible actors with so little range that the scene was ridiculous and unbearably boring.

Tony Plana is a pretty good veteran actor.  Blame the writing and directing, not the actor.  Plana has done a lot of different work throughout his career, but I know him best as Ugly Betty's dad and the evil stepdad in Desperate Housewives.

[NeenerNeener]

Yeah, blame the writing, not the actors. I've been watching them in different things for years and they don't have much to work with in this episode.

So, either Helen is so self-involved that she didn't bother to tell Whitney that Grandma and Grandpa are now skint and Grandpa has dementia, or she did and Whitless  is so self-involved that she chose to ignore the information. Either one makes them horrible people.

[cardigirl]

So I guess things went down with Alison's death, much like we thought they did. The only thing was Ben saying that it was an accident, that she hit her head, and was gone. There was nothing he could do. I was surprised that Joanie didn't pick up on that right away, but also wanted her to get away from him before he went after her too.

So, did he know that Alison was just unconscious?  It doesn't matter, I guess.  He was going to get rid of her, regardless, because he didn't want to face charges of assault and battery.  

I think the setup with Joanie being made to look like an unstable patient so that her accusations would not alert the police is pretty flimsy. She has family that know her backstory, she has EJ.  I mean, I guess they could say that she is unstable, but they would also know that she has not been a patient there for 3 weeks. I don't think it's over for Ben, just yet, but that's only my opinion.

I liked Noah's part.  It was an interesting dichotomy to see the current state of Montauk and then contrast it with the fast-forward of 30 years.  Noah finally spoke some truths about marriage and Whitney talked a bit about the pain of what she witnessed and what the family went through when Noah left them.  Interesting.  Against the backdrop of Helen's parents' marriage, which was certainly not perfect, but which is still functioning in some way.  The good with the bad, I guess.

How rude were those bridal dress people?  Yeesh!  My worst nightmare.

So now we will have to see how Noah deals with allegations of sexual misconduct made against him?  I guess that's what that phone call from the magazine editor portended.

[preeya]

[mxc90]

Was Ben going to only accept a bullet and once Joanie arrived with the police, plan b was put into play (no jail for him)?

If Noah had hooked up with the bridal shop assistant, I may have thrown my TV out the window.

So we'll never know the true story of how Stacey was saved.

[LoveLeigh]

24 minutes ago, mxc90 said:

So we'll never know the true story of how Stacey was saved.

Please explain this. Thanks. 

[mxc90]

1 minute ago, DakotaLavender said:

Please explain this. Thanks. 

At the restaurant, Whitney and Noah couldn't get their story straight how Stacey was saved from choking in season one. And since we got two POVs of this story (Noah and Alison), we'll never know.

[LoveLeigh]

2 hours ago, cardigirl said:

So now we will have to see how Noah deals with allegations of sexual misconduct made against him?  I guess that's what that phone call from the magazine editor portended.

I can't remember back to season 2 and I tried to look at episode summaries online and it is not clear. What actually happened with Eden (the publicist for his book) and Noah? I recall they were at some party and Noah saw Whitney in the pool and he freaked out. 

[scrb]

52 minutes ago, DakotaLavender said:

I can't remember back to season 2 and I tried to look at episode summaries online and it is not clear. What actually happened with Eden (the publicist for his book) and Noah? I recall they were at some party and Noah saw Whitney in the pool and he freaked out. 

I think we joked that they were probably banging on that book tour because the show made it appear like women found him irresistible, like pretty much every male lead on a lot of shows and movies.

As for as Noah running into Whitney at the same party, there was a lot of sex going on and Whitney and Noah were both in the pool where people were trawling for hookups.  One or both of them may have been naked or at any rate, she was probably in a bikini or swimsuit which shouldn't be for fathers to see their daughters in.

[TVFan17]

1 hour ago, DakotaLavender said:

I can't remember back to season 2 and I tried to look at episode summaries online and it is not clear. What actually happened with Eden (the publicist for his book) and Noah? I recall they were at some party and Noah saw Whitney in the pool and he freaked out. 

That was my vague recollection too, but I thought I might have forgotten some Eden-specific development in an earlier season.  So much time passes between seasons that it feels like the Eden episodes aired 10 years ago. 

I remember that Noah and Eden were about to have sex at some point, and I thought she got up to go do something first, before they actually went through with it.   I thought I remembered Noah getting impatient as he was waiting for Eden to come back, and then wandering off to explore the rest of the party, at which point he encountered Whitney and the other girl making out.  He flipped out, and left, and his romp with Eden didn't happen.

But, again, it seems like that stage of the series was so long ago that I could easily have my facts mixed up now.  I didn't think that Noah and Eden ever actually sealed the deal and had sex, but I could be wrong about that.  Maybe they did and I am forgetting it.  Whatever the case, even if they didn't have sex, they were just about to do the deed and she was into it.  He was not forcing her.

Edited October 6, 2019 by TVFan17

[DoubleUTeeEff]

13 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

And when Joanie arrives with the police and old Ben has all his ducks in a row to flip the script, it played out like sone old Alfred Hitchcock episode from 1960. 

This was the most disappointing part of the episode for me. I guess in the future, men are still automatically believed over women and easy to dismiss as "crazy."

9 hours ago, Stad15 said:

Maybe Joanie should have worn a wire tap from the police or micro voice recorder from the year 2055.

Or asked her smart watch or whatever what the date was so she could date the form she was signing. Then Ben's paperwork wouldn't add up.

3 hours ago, cardigirl said:

I think the setup with Joanie being made to look like an unstable patient so that her accusations would not alert the police is pretty flimsy. She has family that know her backstory, she has EJ.  I mean, I guess they could say that she is unstable, but they would also know that she has not been a patient there for 3 weeks. I don't think it's over for Ben, just yet, but that's only my opinion.

I hope you are right! EJ seems like he has his head on straight so maybe he can help Joanie navigate the justice system.

2 hours ago, mxc90 said:

Was Ben going to only accept a bullet and once Joanie arrived with the police, plan b was put into play (no jail for him)?

I assumed that there was no bullet in the gun after the police showed up and Ben had a whole story concocted for them. He planned the whole thing while Joanie was there, taping her and getting her to sign the form and everything. I don't think he wanted to die. I think that was a tactic to try and get Joanie on his side. To make her believe that he was remorseful and doing good for the world now so she wouldn't turn him in.

1 hour ago, DakotaLavender said:

I can't remember back to season 2 and I tried to look at episode summaries online and it is not clear. What actually happened with Eden (the publicist for his book) and Noah? I recall they were at some party and Noah saw Whitney in the pool and he freaked out.

What I remember is while they were at a party, Eden proposed to Noah that they go upstairs and have sex. She told him to give her 10 minutes and then go to her. While he was waiting he found his way into the pool or hot tub and was watching two girls make out. It turns out one of them was Whitney. Here's where my memory might be wrong, but I think that freaked him out enough that he tried to leave the party. I'm not sure how far he got. I think when he got back to the car there were a million missed messages from Alison because she had gone into labor and was in the hospital.

He might have had sex with her at a different time? Or tried and either he or she wasn't into it so they stopped? I love how this is (supposedly) a show about how memory is so fallible and everyone is having trouble remembering what exactly went down. Very apropos. Either way, Eden was never coerced although it was from Noah's POV so I guess you have to take it with a grain of salt. I don't think the show will go there and make Noah in the wrong. If they don't, it's pretty obnoxious to me that they are telling the falsely accused man story rather than what happens most of the time, where the woman's life is ruined after she makes a truthful accusation.

Also, they are making Ben into a very evil villain. Ben was so terrible to Joanie that one could only conclude that he's a psychopath. I mean, he made up this whole story about how he regrets what he had done and how he would let Joanie decide his fate and then sets her up. Plus, he said that he got away with murder during the war so why not at home? To me, this contributes to a false narrative that a man is either is an innocent (Noah) who is taken down by a bunch of harpies or he is a mustache twirling villain (Ben). Sometimes, a man like Ben has rage towards a woman and ends up hurting her but doesn't go on to create a whole evil plan to get away with it. I believe he would have lied to the police initially and let them believe Alison committed suicide to get away with it.  I also believe he would continue lying to the police after Joanie found him and probably get away with it since it's hard to prove something that happened so long ago. But to set up Joanie like that? That takes a special kind of evil.

[HollyG]

3 hours ago, preeya said:

The best response to this episode!

[Razzberry]

Christ, these two aren't exactly the sharpest tools in the shed.  Ben's Evil Plan will backfire bigtime by Joanie's employer, et al.  Old Ben will have some splaining to do.

And Joanie's gone from unstable to straight-up stupid.

Yeah, right, because it's probably not a good idea to say something like this to a psychopath...

Comedy gold.

Edited October 6, 2019 by Razzberry

[nara]

8 hours ago, mxc90 said:

At the restaurant, Whitney and Noah couldn't get their story straight how Stacey was saved from choking in season one. And since we got two POVs of this story (Noah and Alison), we'll never know.

Since we have 2 of 3 POVs saying Alison is the one who helped her, I think we can assume that was true.

6 hours ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

This was the most disappointing part of the episode for me. I guess in the future, men are still automatically believed over women and easy to dismiss as "crazy."

I don’t think it was automatic. There is a document signed by Joanie voluntarily committing herself for treatment and then a recording of her threatening Ben. If some stranger came to me saying that a 30 year old suicide was murder and that was the evidence, I would be skeptical. There is no real evidence supporting arresting him or even taking him in for questioning.

[Guest]

So, Helen AND her parents all live in homes that have got to go for around $10 million each and these people are crying poverty over a WEDDING tent?! OK, so Helen wasn't part of this particular ridiculous excursion -- and what was that even for? So Whitney could fly to Montauk to pick out a dress?? -- but surely she offered up some change to pay for some of this. And there is no snooty shop worker in the world who would have been that much of a bitch to the Solloways. I get those high-end retail people can be difficult but again, the writers have to hit everyone on the head with an anvil with their never-to-be-believed dialogue just in case there was ONE PERSON who didn't understand the women were being shitty. 

And good Christ that scene with Ben choking Joanie. Like now that we're aware he's Dr Extra-Cripsy Evil, are we really to suspend disbelief that he didn't go through with killing her only because it's what SHE wanted? And his evil scheme of knowing she'd "one day come to find him" had me rolling on the floor. COME. THE. FUCK. ON.

I've hated this show since S1 but this nonsense has really taken the cake. 

[LoveLeigh]

26 minutes ago, Giant Misfit said:

And good Christ that scene with Ben choking Joanie. Like now that we're aware he's Dr Extra-Cripsy Evil, are we really to suspend disbelief that he didn't go through with killing her only because it's what SHE wanted? And his evil scheme of knowing she'd "one day come to find him" had me rolling on the floor. COME. THE. FUCK. ON

I've hated this show since S1 but this nonsense has really taken the cake. 

As I said, this was beyond awful. When Joanie showed up with the cops the scene unfolded like an Alfred Hitchcock show from 1960. It was so amateurish. 

[Toodleoo]

Joanie is the stupidest person alive. Hell everyone on this show is. Bye show, ain’t gonna miss ya.

[Badlands]

Did Joanie sign her real name on the form? It would be pretty idiotic for her to say her name was "Gabrielle" and then sign it with her real name... so that's probably what she did.

[Toodleoo]

3 minutes ago, Badlands said:

Did Joanie sign her real name on the form? It would be pretty idiotic for her to say her name was "Gabrielle" and then sign it with her real name... so that's probably what she did.

Damn, nice plot hole find!

[PrincessPurrsALot]

The scene with Joanie and Ben was some of the worst dialog ever written.  Is Ben a basically good guy with PTSD who snapped and killed Alison or is he pure unadulterated evil?  The whole let's try this therapy on you was ridiculous.  Ben having his evil plan all ready for the day Joanie looked for him.  Joanie being able to get the police to go with her to arrest him.  They really are just throwing crap at a dartboard at this point.

Then we'll add in #metoo for Noah, snotty women working at a bridal salon trying to hard sell a $17,000 wedding dress (yet again reminding us Noah did not come from money), Helen's mother weirdly leaving her husband with dementia with Noah Fucking Sollloway without filling him in first, and a Luisa sighting.

The only good part of the episode?  We learned that Helen looked like a "vagabond whore" in her wedding dress.  Sometimes I love Margaret. 

[LoveLeigh]

46 minutes ago, PrincessPurrsALot said:

  Sometimes I love Margaret. 

I can't stand Margaret. She is exactly how a spouse should not treat a wife or husband who is developing dementia. She was exasperated, short tempered and obnoxious. 

[Razzberry]

19 hours ago, LydiaE said:

Do the writers not understand how people with dementia behave? They don’t lose their most fundamental personal characteristics and they don’t create alternate personalities for themselves.

I don't know, my dad's personality changed completely when he got dementia.  He was always very dignified but when he had to be hospitalized he thought he was at some resort and I was the overly cheerful activities director. Then he got booted out for running around buck naked with nothing but a towel on his head.  

[EtheltoTillie]

1 hour ago, DakotaLavender said:

I can't stand Margaret. She is exactly how a spouse should not treat a wife or husband who is developing dementia. She was exasperated, short tempered and obnoxious. 

She always had that obnoxious personality, though. Like Lady Violet on Downton, but not as funny. 

Two more plot holes:  is Margaret’s house like a real Downton Abbey such that they have table service for one hundred or more?  Seems unrealistic.  I suddenly recall that there was a large  party scene there in season 1 where Allison was working for the caterers. They would have rented dishes.  

Oh, and I’m pretty sure there are no high end bridal salons in Montauk or even East Hampton, the nearest town with any kind of designer shopping. 

[ScoobieDoobs]

Wow, Treem, really?  Denigrating & belittling the Me Too Movement, by having a character put out a false accusation?  Ugh -- hate it!

The bridal shop scene was a waste of time.  Gee, Treem, thanks for letting us know that weddings are expensive.  And if you think 17 thou wedding dresses are bullshit, whiny Whitney, then don't go trying them on.

Total disconnect between Young Ben & Elder Ben.  Elder Ben is articulate, & almost seems like an intellectual.  Yeah, Young Ben had some hints of maybe being ambitious, but it's very hard to believe he'd age into this.  Other than being good looking & somewhat charming & maybe a bit sensitive, he didn't have much else going on.

OK, so wouldn't Joanie say to the police -- please call my husband?  He may be mad at her, but he is a nice guy & would certainly help if she's in trouble.  What about her boss or Luisa?  Does the bitter sad-sack have no friends?  Guess it's time for EJ to swoop in to Joanie's rescue?  Eh, this is really dopey shit.

Btw, I loved Helen's wedding dress.  It kinda reminded me of Carolyn Bessette's exquisite dress when she married JFK Jr.  Yeah, figures Margaret hated it.  Vagabond whore?  I chuckled at that one.  Why is it Treem's writers get Margaret so well & have failed miserably this season with everything & everyone else?

Edited October 7, 2019 by ScoobieDoobs

[bobbyjoe]

Quote

Did Joanie sign her real name on the form? It would be pretty idiotic for her to say her name was "Gabrielle" and then sign it with her real name... so that's probably what she did.

I kept expecting the cops to pick up the contract and go “who the hell is Gabrielle” but when they didn’t I was wondering if the writers even read their own scripts.  Plus, Joanie hasn’t exactly been hiding herself— there are all sorts of witnesses, particularly EJ but also people like the bartender, her husband/boyfriend, etc. who would be able to verify that Joanie wasn’t a patient at Ben’s place. Even the other patients, wouldn’t they find it a bit unusual if the cops asked them if Joanie was a patient there?  Were they in on Ben’s plot?   It doesn’t make much sense.  Ben’s place should now be referred to as Plothole Central.  

I don’t think we’ve seen the last of Ben either, particularly since he was made soooooo villainous.  I suspect he will get some kind of comeuppance.  I don’t see Joanie killing Ben at this point, but could someone else from the past show up and murder Ben?  

[Armchair Critic]

I'll say it again, I have watched every episode so I want to finish this series out, but this shit is depressing.

[LoveLeigh]

1 hour ago, ScoobieDoobs said:

Total disconnect between Young Ben & Elder Ben.  Elder Ben is articulate, & almost seems like an intellectual.  Yeah, Young Ben had some hints of maybe being ambitious, but it's very hard to believe he'd age into this.  Other than being good looking & somewhat charming & maybe a bit sensitive, he didn't have much else going on.

OK, so wouldn't Joanie say to the police -- please call my husband?  He may be mad at her, but he is a nice guy & would certainly help if she's in trouble.  What about her boss or Luisa?  Does the bitter sad-sack have no friends?  Guess it's time for EJ to swoop in to Joanie's rescue?  Eh, this is really dopey shit.

I am seriously astounded at this Joanie crap. I can't stop posting about it. Old Ben is just NOT who young Ben would ever be. And that whole preplanned plot for the day when Joanie came to investigate her mother's death was preposterous. And the dopey way old Ben sat there and explained it all was sooooo stupid. And that Hitchcock twist shoe horned in so Old Ben could flip the scrip made me laugh. I waited a year for this crap? I waited for episode 7 for THIS? The calm way he tells it is wacky. Old Ben can't be telling the truth. This is bullshit. 

And he created a place so nobody ever loses control and hurts anybody? He says he is sorry for killing her? He wanted to help people? He did not want to rot away in a cell. Joanie should make the call... he promised himself when Joanie found him he would submit to her accountability demands. Sooooooo stupid when he gives her the gun. He is in completely in her hands.  

And Joanie goes with the verbal flow. "Joanie I will be right here, I will not run." WHO WROTE THAT CRAP? 

Then Joanie remembers her mother drowned. I have a headache. 

ETA: Could Joanie have hallucinated that meeting with old Ben? It seemed so unnatural. Are we going to see yet still another version of what happened? Because it all is so preposterous. 

Edited October 7, 2019 by DakotaLavender

[ScoobieDoobs]

Everything with Joanie has a dreamy quality, doesn't it?  Given how so many cold cases of murders from decades prior are being solved now, I guess this is the ultimate dream?  To face down the murderer of your lost loved one?  But it all feels so phony that it falls flat.

I still say if Treem had solved her differences with Ruth, Joshua woulda stayed on for another season & we wouldn't be seeing any of this dreamy crap.  I hated how Alison was killed off.  I really did.  And this badly written nonsense doesn't alleviate my hate for the way Alison was killed off.

Was surprised to see Luisa.  But I realized why she was there.  Cuz that shoulda been a scene for Cole to do, but since Joshua Jackson ain't around, Luisa had to fill in.  Sorry Treem, very poor substitute.

[stormy weather]

I don't entirely agree with people saying Whitney has changed. She only got older, so she's not the prototype of the whiny, spoiled rotten teenager she was before, but in my opinion deep down she's still a pretty insufferable brat. When Margaret said they couldn't afford a 20K tent and Noah was uncomfortable because obviously he couldn't either, what kind of adult person would act like Whitney and run to their room in tears like that?! Yet, at the bridal shop (by the way, there is NO WAY saleswomen at such a high end bridal shop would EVER say the word "fucking" or behave like that, ever) she makes a scene because 17K for a dress is too much. So which one is it, Whitney? The writing is so inconsistent on this show it drives me up the walls.

Also, wear a seatbelt maybe? Especially since you're riding with a maniac, grandma said.

To conclude the Noah section, yes. They're going there. Women who falsely accuse men of sexual misconduct and they use the #metoo movement as a weapon. What a fantastic message to send. Who had this great idea? They honestly couldn't come up with any better story for Noah than unearthing a completely forgotten character who had like two lines of dialogues 4 years ago and have her start this ridiculous plotline when there's 4 episodes left in the series? Come on! 

In the same category of "stuff viewers already know happened (Ben killing Allison) or didn't happen (Noah coercing Eden into having sex with him) but let's show them anyway because we have nothing else to write about", Joanie and Ben. That whole part seemed written by a 5-year old. So we're meant to believe Ben had been planning this for years? And that Joanie signed papers offered to her by her mother's killer without reading them first? And that she willingly decided to do this sort of hypnosis-like therapy where she could've said things that would've revealed her true identity? And that she knew or "guessed it right" all the details of her mother's last night with Ben (the apartment, the rain, Ben coming for dinner, the fact that he told Allison he was married)? How would that be possible?
Well at least they didn't have sex when he started choking her on the floor, so I guess we should be thankful for that. 

Edited October 7, 2019 by stormy weather

[Stad15]

Lol, just realized Joanie called herself "Gabrielle", you know, the female version of "Gabriel."  Cute, Treem. Real cute.

[Mindthinkr]

3 hours ago, stormy weather said:

there's 4 episodes left

I’ve come this far so I might as well slog through the rest of this mess. 

About the high end bridal store. If Montauk is such a depressed area and only has electricity during daytime hours then why would this kind of a store be located there? Seems more like a place that would be better suited for NYC. How do Helen’s parents deal with the subpar conditions. Then again I might be confused with all this time and place traveling. Treem, if you are trying to confuse me as a way of covering up your iffy plot lines, then it may work somewhat here, but then it may take a lot for me to watch and follow another one that you might have in the future. 

This is like one of those vacation trips sitting in the backseat with your parents. “Are we there yet?” 

[sadie]

Here’s my problem with these writers. Instead of writing a believable Joanie and Ben interaction, which would have been easy: Joanie comes back with the police, Ben simply states “hey this crazy person showed up on my doorstep today using a false name and saying she had PTSD, but then revealed she is the daughter of a woman I dated 30 years ago accusing me of killing her”. No, instead he’s the most brilliant mastermind that ever lived and for 30 years has had this evil plan ready IN CASE Joanie ever showed up. WTF? It’s so so bad. Why why why? 

The Whitney stuff, meh, so Helen is too busy interior designing that she can’t go help her oldest daughter with her wedding. Huh? Made no sense. If Margorit and husband are sooooo broke how do they even afford the taxes on that colossal estate? Again, nothing adds up, bad writing abounds.

Im in until the end but they are making it very hard. 

[KBrownie]

5 hours ago, ScoobieDoobs said:

I still say if Treem had solved her differences with Ruth, Joshua woulda stayed on for another season

What does one have to do with the other?  Did Joshua Jackson state somewhere that his departure was related to whatever went down with Ruth Wilson?  That he declined to participate in Season 5 as a form of protest?

I like to think that he turned down another season because the writers never allowed his character to truly move on from the original affair and do anything other than chase after Alison, who, despite all Cole's longing, and chasing, and declarations of love, never showed anywhere near the same level of interest in him or anything he was interested in or doing.  Also, I will forever be annoyed that we never got to see his reaction to finding out that Alison denied him his daughter for two years just because or that he never found out she participated in the cover-up of his brother's death.

I may be in the minority, but I liked Luisa's small appearance.  I like her character as well.   She never got the development she should have.  If minor, brand-new characters like Sierra, etc. can get a POV, it will always be ridiculous that Luisa never got one.

Edited October 7, 2019 by KBrownie
More to say

[TexasGal]

1 hour ago, Mindthinkr said:

About the high end bridal store. If Montauk is such a depressed area and only has electricity during daytime hours then why would this kind of a store be located there? Seems more like a place that would be better suited for NYC. How do Helen’s parents deal with the subpar conditions. Then again I might be confused with all this time and place traveling. Treem, if you are trying to confuse me as a way of covering up your iffy plot lines, then it may work somewhat here, but then it may take a lot for me to watch and follow another one that you might have in the future. 

Yeah, @Mindthinkr, you got the timelines messed up.  The fancy wedding planning stuff all happens in the current.  Or, I guess, 2021/2022?  So Montauk is still high end and not desolate yet.

Ok, Noah is a total whore but I don’t recall him ever harassing anyone.  It was always women just dropping their panties for him.  Hate this storyline.  I don’t want to feel sorry for him. 

[ScoobieDoobs]

1 hour ago, KBrownie said:

What does one have to do with the other?  Did Joshua Jackson state somewhere that his departure was related to whatever went down with Ruth Wilson?  That he declined to participate in Season 5 as a form of protest?

I like to think that he turned down another season because the writers never allowed his character to truly move on from the original affair and do anything other than chase after Alison, who, despite all Cole's longing, and chasing, and declarations of love, never showed anywhere near the same level of interest in him or anything he was interested in or doing.  Also, I will forever be annoyed that we never got to see his reaction to finding out that Alison denied him his daughter for two years just because or that he never found out she participated in the cover-up of his brother's death.

I may be in the minority, but I liked Luisa's small appearance.  I like her character as well.   She never got the development she should have.  If minor, brand-new characters like Sierra, etc. can get a POV, it will always be ridiculous that Luisa never got one.

I like the character of Luisa & I like the actress playing her.  But her appearance in this ep felt forced & just thrown in outta nowhere.

We don’t really know why Joshua didn’t return this season.  It was said he never intended to.  I’m not buying that.  His presence is as missed as Ruth’s, since Alison & Cole are referred to so much this season & certainly in this ep.

Whiny Whitney is still whiny as fuck.  When she asked Noah why he left Helen & the kids, I screamed at my TV — get the fuck over it, ya brat & mind your own business & quit whining & live your life & move on!  Would a conversation like this EVER happen?  NO!  Would you ask your parents why exactly they divorced?  It’s their business & their choice.  Jeez, can Whitney ever stop whining?

And why the hell does Whitney need a fancy schmancy billionaire’s wedding when she’s marrying some jobless, penniless bum?

Edited October 7, 2019 by ScoobieDoobs

[PrincessPurrsALot]

One more annoying rant, how the heck would Helen's dress fit Whitney?  Isn't Whitney significantly taller than Helen?  Was Helen's dress too long for her so it is the right length on Whitney?  Why the heck do I care so much, the writers clearly don't care if anything makes sense. 

[preeya]

8 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

I'll say it again, I have watched every episode so I want to finish this series out, but this shit is depressing.

ITA. I'm in the same boat, although I would say idiotic instead of depressing.

[preeya]

1 hour ago, TexasGal said:

Ok, Noah is a total whore but I don’t recall him ever harassing anyone.  It was always women just dropping their panties for him.  Hate this storyline.  I don’t want to feel sorry for him. 

How many thought he would be shtooping the salesperson in the bridal shop? I did.

[weaver]

2 hours ago, ScoobieDoobs said:

I like the character of Luisa & I like the actress playing her.  But her appearance in this ep felt forced & just thrown in outta nowhere.

We don’t really know why Joshua didn’t return this season.  It was said he never intended to.  I’m not buying that.  His presence is as missed as Ruth’s, since Alison & Cole are referred to so much this season & certainly in this ep.

Whiny Whitney is still whiny as fuck.  When she asked Noah why he left Helen & the kids, I screamed at my TV — get the fuck over it, ya brat & mind your own business & quit whining & live your life & move on!  Would a conversation like this EVER happen?  NO!  Would you ask your parents why exactly they divorced?  It’s their business & their choice.  Jeez, can Whitney ever stop whining?

And why the hell does Whitney need a fancy schmancy billionaire’s wedding when she’s marrying some jobless, penniless bum?

Whitney was as entitled as ever, flying into Montauk and going to the most expensive bridal shop in town, even though she knows money is tight (by Butler standards).   Then she is bitchy to the clerk (although as has been mentioned, the clerk would never say or act the way treem wrote it) who earns a saleswoman's wages and is sick of dealing with Montauk's snippy rich and famous.  Of course as a poster upthread said nobody buys a $17,000 gown in Montauk to begin with; they shop in NYC.  Also she conveniently forgot to mention to Noah that the really rich guy was watching when she cheated on her idiot loser with Furcat.     

Another item of many that were not believable is Noah's casually deciding to go see Joanie.  He hasn't mentioned Joanie since he left the East Coast.  Taking care of her for two years must have built up quite a bond.  Oh, well, she's left for Vermont, so sad.  

I enjoyed Dominic West's performance in the Butler house and I love Helen's mother.  That was about it  for my enjoyment of the episode.   DW did his best with the dialogue he had.    Shouldn't Noah have enough money to spring for a big wedding if that is what whiny daughter wants?  

I also don't think Luisa's treatment of Noah was fair or believable.  No one treated Luisa like some lower class immigrant maid the way she implied.  It's not exactly as if Cole was from a high rent family; remember his mother?   And wasn't her plan to leave the country and start her immigration process all over again?  I think she has a nice hunk of change from the Lobster Roll.  

[Razzberry]

2 hours ago, TexasGal said:

Ok, Noah is a total whore but I don’t recall him ever harassing anyone.  It was always women just dropping their panties for him.  Hate this storyline.  I don’t want to feel sorry for him. 

I agree, Noah has never had to sexually harass anyone.  If anything he's been an object of lust by hordes of horny women.

And I still don't understand what Ben plans to do when his story falls apart with just a cursory fact-check  by the cops?

[LibertarianSlut]

Nothing that happened on this episode made any sense.  As people have pointed out, Helen and Margaret are sitting on multi-million dollar homes, yet they claim not to have a pot to make soup in.

What was Whitney even doing in Montauk?  I thought she was there to have a wedding, not just to plan one.  I know people aren't always sensible when it comes to wedding planning, but Whitney is taking this too far.  She "needs" to be married on her grandparents' property, with a $20k tent, when she can't even pay her own rent?  Whitney, I'm going to quote Dr House quoting the great philosopher Jagger:  "You can't always get what you want."

To the women at the bridal shop, in response to "what is more important that splurging on your oldest daughter's wedding dress?"  Um, almost literally every other thing, starting with your three other kids' weddings, which you have to assume they're going to have.  Food, shelter, mortgages, alimony, transportation (who paid for those transcontinental tickets to NY and back anyway?). The bridal shop bitches were cartoonish in their single-mindedness, but who on this show isn't?

I thought Helen's dress looked hideous on Whitney.  It was a perfectly nice white dress for a picnic, not a traditional wedding dress.  Whitney and Helen aren't the same size.  I really hope Whitney doesn't marry Colin.  She said she doesn't want to end up like her dad, but she already cheated on him.  I can't believe Whitney left Noah stranded at The Lobster Roll when it was her idea to stop in the first place.  What a bitch.

The only thing I remember about Eden that no one has mentioned yet was that Noah brought her to his apartment when Allison was hosting Thanksgiving, to which Eden wasn't invited, and Allison was pissed.  I think Noah was supposed to bring home a turkey or something, but instead he showed up hours late with only Eden in tow.  My theory is that they had sex off camera.

-------------------------------------

Joanie--oh my God, where do I start?  Where do I stop?  

First of all, it's at least 2053 (source:  Cole's headstone). Treem can't keep dipping out of the future for the Joanie segments because it's convenient.  Last week, EJ was driving an antiquated gasoline car for no other reason that I can presume, except that the show didn't want to waste time or money figuring out a a futuristic car.  This week, Joanie walks into a room full of people reading books and she makes a remark that she thought she was the last one to read books.  Benjamin is the last person to use paper.  It's so lazy.  Either prepare for what 2053 is going to look like, or don't have it take place in 2053, but you can't just keep using throwaway lines to explain why people are acting like it's 2019 in 2053, ugh!

There's not much that can be said that hasn't been said about how fake and stupid the Benjamin scenes were. I can't cover it fully.  I'll just say that Joanie would never have been there in the first place when the cops came to see Benjamin.  When he claimed that Joanie was an escaped patient, Joanie would have only had to make one or two phone calls to prove that's untrue.  When Ben played the recording of Joanie saying she would chop off Ben's dick, the cops would have confiscated the entire thing and played it, and if Ben was smart enough to erase the parts that incriminated him, it would have looked very, very weird that he was a doctor who had in his possession just a recording of Joanie saying, "I'd like to chop your dick off."  If I was a cop, I'd be looking at Benjamin for having that sitting around.  And Joanie never touched it, because her fingerprints weren't on it.  What possible therapeutic use could that have?  None.  

It also bothered me when the cop asked Joanie twice, "you signed something you didn't read??"  Like...yes.  People sign things they don't read all the time.  Cops know that.  She should have just said, "yes, I did.  I signed it because I thought it was boilerplate," which is true.  It doesn't make her look like the smartest person who's roamed the earth, but it's certainly not dispositive that the woman is an escaped lunatic (Insert huge eye roll here).  

--------------------------------

The only part of the episode I liked was the Lobster Roll.  I felt like we were going to get more insight as to what happened.  I liked Noah's and Luisa's exchange.  When they stepped outside, it felt very old school The Affair.  I really thought we were going to get some deep Lockheart secret when Noah was riding in a taxi cab in the next scene, as opposed to an Uber of Lyft.  Didn't the Lockhearts use their cab company to run drugs season one?  Alas, we just got some poison ivy on the side of the road, and if that was supposed to have any symbolism, it was lost on me.

Bruce for the win this epsisode.  If it's true that Noah cheated because he didn't feel welcome in Helen's world, maybe none of this would have happened if Bruce had been cool from the beginning, as he was here (minus the attempt to make eggs without a pan).

ETA--this is extremely nit-picky, but does anyone know why Ben and Joanie kept referring to Allison's home, where Ben assaulted her, as "an apartment"?  I'm not going to go back and re-watch, but I could have sworn Allison was living in a house and not an apartment.

Edited October 7, 2019 by LibertarianSlut

[izabella]

15 minutes ago, weaver said:

I also don't think Luisa's treatment of Noah was fair or believable.  No one treated Luisa like some lower class immigrant maid the way she implied.  It's not exactly as if Cole was from a high rent family; remember his mother?   And wasn't her plan to leave the country and start her immigration process all over again?  I think she has a nice hunk of change from the Lobster Roll.  

Luisa worked as a maid for Helen's parents.

[LoveLeigh]

9 hours ago, ScoobieDoobs said:

Everything with Joanie has a dreamy quality, doesn't it?  Given how so many cold cases of murders from decades prior are being solved now, I guess this is the ultimate dream?  To face down the murderer of your lost loved one?  But it all feels so phony that it falls flat.

That is why I said maybe it really was an hallucination and we will see another version of it in another episode just as we saw two versions in ep 9 last season of the day Alison died. It just seemed too ridiculous to have unraveled in such an absurd way. 

Edited October 7, 2019 by DakotaLavender