S05.E07: Episode 7

[lightninggirl]

On 10/6/2019 at 11:27 PM, PrincessPurrsALot said:

The scene with Joanie and Ben was some of the worst dialog ever written.  Is Ben a basically good guy with PTSD who snapped and killed Alison or is he pure unadulterated evil?

I'm going with the latter because DAMN, that Joanie PTSD/therapy/patient file was pretty damned detailed. If he were to have to give it up for whatever reason (HIPAA in the future notwithstanding), he'd have to have verified information on her - like her previous suicide attempts, etc.

[zengirl1215]

I really hope Joanie makes good on cutting Old Ben's penis off and allowing him to bleed out. So what if she's on the cops' radar now (according to Ben) she herself feels she has nothing to lose at this point, plus it would be vindication for her father.  

I might be in the minority but Noah being everyone's favorite punching bag is getting tiresome. Yes, he's done really crappy things and made horrible choices, and constantly puts his foot in his mouth, BUT it doesn't matter what good he does to try to make up for his past indiscretions, for example going to prison for something his wife did, people still throw the bad stuff back in face. It's like either forgive him and move on or don't have anything to do with him. Geesh! 

[AngelaHunter]

1 hour ago, lightninggirl said:

He let her go over to a supposed killer to let her confront him, so I'm not sure about EJ's head. Well, the upper one, anyway.

Yabbut, he's "dynamite" in bed! So he says. All we saw him do, and all my CC told me he was doing was [panting, moaning] as he plowed away.

[Trillian]

6 hours ago, PrincessPurrsALot said:

It is a good reminder that this was Noah's perspective on the bridal shop employees.  I cannot imagine them being that rude to a potential customer.  In reality, they would have asked about budget and brought out more reasonably priced dresses (if they have some). 

From Noah’s perspective, this makes total sense. Most males would feel totally humiliated in this female environment at not being able to give their little girl whatever she desired. He would have remembered the staff as being judgmental of his fatherhood and therefore of his manhood, even if they would’ve been more reasonable in real life. 

[AngelaHunter]

3 hours ago, zengirl1215 said:

I might be in the minority but Noah being everyone's favorite punching bag is getting tiresome.

I agree. It might be good for a laugh to see doors slammed in his face or him being kicked around, but enough already! In spite of his dick moves, I like Noah and I'm tired of seeing every single character he encounters (other than women who instantly want to boff him) treat him like their own personal Dobby.

Edited October 9, 2019 by AngelaHunter

[stormy weather]

11 hours ago, ScoobieDoobs said:

OK, one of the recaps brought up the point that we only got Noah’s POV of what happened with Eden. Granted that is true, but nobody thus far has ever accused Noah making unwanted advances & he’s been able to hook up with lots of women in everyone’s POV.

Remember Margaret’s sarcastic  greeting to Janelle about her being Noah’s latest?  So it’s pretty well established Noah gets tons of women without harassing anyone.  I’m already very suspicious this accusation from Eden is phony — and if it is, I’ll be really annoyed at Treem for tossing this serious issue into the mix of endless throwaway storylines this season.

I agree with you, and also this POV thing made sense when we were shown two (or sometimes even 3) people's POVs on the same event, so that at least you could compare them and try to determine which was "truer" or more plausible. When it's only one person and you can't tell to what extent that POV is reliable, it seems to me it becomes a very convenient tool for retconning events that happened in the past but don't serve the purpose of the plot anymore. E.g. "Yeah okay, time and time again we showed Noah never harassed anyone and he's just not that kind of man BUUUUUT it was only HIS point of view! So now we're free to make him whatever we want to regardless of what we've shown so far because who knows how his actions were perceived by others who are not him!" Like I said, very convenient cover-up for lazy writing.

10 hours ago, JenE4 said:

Cole is divorcing Luisa and leaving the state with her step-daughter, so she certainly has “just cause” for acting gruff and upset. 

Yeah, about that, it would be interesting to find out why Joanie still calls Luisa mom. Did they keep in touch through the years and saw each other regularly? 'Cause it would be hard to believe someone would call somebody "mom" when 1. they had a real mom who raised them for 2-3 years and co-raised them for another 4, and 2. they haven't lived with or seen that somebody since they were 7.

9 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

Wait - she's getting married the weekend of her arrival in Montauk? 

I thought she was because Margaret said something about Helen missing her daughter's wedding, which wouldn't make sense if the wedding wasn't happening that weekend, and the tent was due to arrive the next day or something like that? But everything did feel super rushed and still in the early stages of planning so I might be wrong.

9 hours ago, Mindthinkr said:

I think she went expecting more excitement and money to execute this dream wedding. 

I actually think she's so angry and grumpy and whiny about everything because sure, first and foremost she's always and forever an entitled little brat, but also because in reality she's deeply unsure about this wedding herself, so she's throwing all those fits to hide her insecurity about the whole ordeal. Which is, once again, very mature, Whitney.  

Edited October 9, 2019 by stormy weather

[Stad15]

11 hours ago, lightninggirl said:

I'm going with the latter because DAMN, that Joanie PTSD/therapy/patient file was pretty damned detailed. If he were to have to give it up for whatever reason (HIPAA in the future notwithstanding), he'd have to have verified information on her - like her previous suicide attempts, etc.

I think Ben is not a "good guy" in any form.  He has zero redeeming qualities.  He cheated on his wife w/ kids.  He's a liar. He refused to tell Alison.  He murdered Alison.  He murdered innocent civilians in the war (according to him.) He went PTSD on his wife and tied her down in bed.  He committed aggravated assault, and this was after her murdered Alison (which goes against his claims to Joanie that after killing her mom, he became a good guy and dedicated his life to helping others with PTSD...but he's a liar).  He manipulated Joanie to save face.

I dunno, maybe he was a good guy before going on his two tours of duty.  Probably not.

[Milburn Stone]

9 hours ago, stormy weather said:

I agree with you, and also this POV thing made sense when we were shown two (or sometimes even 3) people's POVs on the same event, so that at least you could compare them and try to determine which was "truer" or more plausible. When it's only one person and you can't tell to what extent that POV is reliable, it seems to me it becomes a very convenient tool for retconning events that happened in the past but don't serve the purpose of the plot anymore. E.g. "Yeah okay, time and time again we showed Noah never harassed anyone and he's just not that kind of man BUUUUUT it was only HIS point of view! So now we're free to make him whatever we want to regardless of what we've shown so far because who knows how his actions were perceived by others who are not him!" Like I said, very convenient cover-up for lazy writing.

I understand your point (that the single POV thing could be used as a convenient cover-up for lazy writing) but I don't think it is being used as a cover-up for lazy writing. Because I don't think the writing is lazy. I find the dialogue consistently sharp and the depictions believable, since the entire framework is the very true observation that we create our own realities. If this central observation were less true, one might think the POV device was being used as an excuse for all kinds of things, but it is as true as true can be.

We know that Noah carries massive amounts of guilt, about more than one interaction with women in his family. He carries guilt about his mother. He carries guilt about his affair. He felt tremendous guilt over running into Whitney at that party. He carries so much guilt, he hallucinated a prison guard stalking him! Now the guilt translates into a persecution complex involving every woman he knows. Even Eden. The point isn't whether he did or did not harass Eden. He probably didn't. (And Treem doesn't mean this as a condemnation of women who come forward.) The point is how Noah sees and feels it, as one more expression of the terrible burden of unconscious guilt he actually does carry around. I hope he finds a path toward resolution by series' end.

[LydiaE]

I can’t see how there was any other point for the writers to re-introduce Eden.  She met Helen, like, once.  It’s obvious she’s now in kahoots with Sasha Mann to bring Noah down.  In fact, the whole ordeal is probably what leads to the reconciliation between Noah and Helen. 

The writing is so horrible.

Edited October 9, 2019 by LydiaE

[LibertarianSlut]

I know that this is coming out of left-field, as I pretty much hate Whitney, and I think Noah generally gets dogged too much,but I don't think Whitney needs to just "get over" her dad's affair and subsequent breaking up of her nuclear family when she was a teenager.  If my dad had done that, I would have been gutted.

I think that when a person devestates their family like that, they owe everyone involved not just a full and thorough explanation that they came up with, but I think it's their responsibility to work with a therapist to figure out why they did what they did, because we are so often very blind to our own failings.  Then, once the explanation is as complete as it's going to get, the family should be brought in to discuss the matter with the offender and the therapist, ask any questions they want, and receive full answers.  Unless or until that happens, I don't see how someone can "get over" something they can't even understand.

Maybe the therapy all happened off camera and Whitney is just jabbing at her dad to be a bitch.  She was a mad cow even before her dad cheated, so I'm entirely open to that possibility.  Also, now that she is an adult, she can go to therapy and deal with it on her own, but, absent a full explanation from Noah, I am kinda willing to give this one to Whitney if her dad is too busy or distracted to properly apologize to her.

[Rockfish]

2 minutes ago, LibertarianSlut said:

I know that this is coming out of left-field, as I pretty much hate Whitney, and I think Noah generally gets dogged too much,but I don't think Whitney needs to just "get over" her dad's affair and subsequent breaking up of her nuclear family when she was a teenager.  If my dad had done that, I would have been gutted.

I think that when a person devestates their family like that, they owe everyone involved not just a full and thorough explanation that they came up with, but I think it's their responsibility to work with a therapist to figure out why they did what they did, because we are so often very blind to our own failings.  Then, once the explanation is as complete as it's going to get, the family should be brought in to discuss the matter with the offender and the therapist, ask any questions they want, and receive full answers.  Unless or until that happens, I don't see how someone can "get over" something they can't even understand.

Maybe the therapy all happened off camera and Whitney is just jabbing at her dad to be a bitch.  She was a mad cow even before her dad cheated, so I'm entirely open to that possibility.  Also, now that she is an adult, she can go to therapy and deal with it on her own, but, absent a full explanation from Noah, I am kinda willing to give this one to Whitney if her dad is too busy or distracted to properly apologize to her.

I like the way you think! If this were something families did normally, we’d have a healthier, better functioning society. 

[LibertarianSlut]

12 minutes ago, Rockfish said:

I like the way you think! If this were something families did normally, we’d have a healthier, better functioning society. 

Oh thanks!  I wrote about this, because this is what I think I would need from my own nuclear family (on a much smaller scale) in order to heal from past transgressions, but the entire time I was writing I was questioning whether I'd finally turned a bend and officially bought into the inner child, every single person is a "survivor of trauma" alarmist bullshit that society peddles, so I'm glad to get a vote of confidence!

I think we need to walk a fine line between pulling ourselves up by our bootstraps and using therapy as a constructive tool versus navel-gazing about something that happened on the playground when we were four.  I try not to be dogmatic either way.  Maybe that's what I like about this show.  Helen seems like someone who tries to find that middle ground.  

I don't know what the hell else I'd like about it at this point 😗

[LoveLeigh]

7 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

I understand your point (that the single POV thing could be used as a convenient cover-up for lazy writing) but I don't think it is being used as a cover-up for lazy writing. Because I don't think the writing is lazy. I find the dialogue consistently sharp and the depictions believable, since the entire framework is the very true observation that we create our own realities. If this central observation were less true, one might think the POV device was being used as an excuse for all kinds of things, but it is as true as true can be.

I am surprised at your reaction to this episode. I found so many of your alternate theories fascinating after last season's episode 9. You even posted in that episode 9 thread that you believed the evidence pointed to Alison committing suicide. So I do not understand how calmly you can accept this episode 7 and the way it unraveled. 

[AngelaHunter]

2 hours ago, LibertarianSlut said:

Maybe the therapy all happened off camera and Whitney is just jabbing at her dad to be a bitch.  She was a mad cow even before her dad cheated, so I'm entirely open to that possibility.

I've been rewatching the series, and Whitney was a whiny, spoiled, miserable bitch in Ep01, before Noah ever cheated. She was a teenager who went waltzing to the Lockhart ranch, supposedly to pick up her brother, semi-dressed and coming on to Scott, a man twice her age. Now she's just an older whiny, spoiled, miserable bitch, but one who wants to get married so should be mature enough to understand that marriages break down, love goes away, and that even her Daddy doesn't owe her his life and has the right to try and find some happiness.

[Andyourlittledog2]

I don't know what they were smoking when they wrote this episode but they need to stop cold turkey. The entire Joanie storyline is elaborate fantastical bullshit.  I used to like this show. What a waste.

[DiabLOL]

I think we're officially in telenovela territory, hurtling rapidly to a Dexter Series Finale Fiasco type ending.

[msrachelj]

On 10/6/2019 at 2:20 AM, scrb said:

Joanie’s POV — I couldn’t believe Joanie chose to confront Ben directly.  And if he expected to show up, he knows his cover was BS if Joanie could figure it out.

How did he know that Joanie would figure it out and come alone?

But he knew her so well that he prepared a trap for her, yet is surprised when she wants to be choked?

Is he even a licensed doctor or just pushing this voodoo EMDR thing?  When he pulled this therapy with Alison, people were rolling their eyes.  Why would the cops accept his assessment of Joanie?  Real doctors wouldn’t just show patient info. to cops either.

Ben’s confessions were suppose to be shocking but now they seem to want to wrap it all up in a bow and presumably have Joanie find a way to bust him.

Or will they go dark and have Ben kill Joanie too?

The EMDR was interesting to see. I had a therapist once that wanted to use that nonsense on me. I never went back.

[AngelaHunter]

6 hours ago, DiabLOL said:

I think we're officially in telenovela territory, hurtling rapidly to a Dexter Series Finale Fiasco type ending.

Dear TPTB: Don't let it get that bad, I beg of you. We refer to this kind of appalling ending as "Lumberjacking" now. Please, just -  no.

[Milburn Stone]

19 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

I am surprised at your reaction to this episode. I found so many of your alternate theories fascinating after last season's episode 9. You even posted in that episode 9 thread that you believed the evidence pointed to Alison committing suicide. So I do not understand how calmly you can accept this episode 7 and the way it unraveled. 

I really do continue to think that the evidence of S4E9 strongly weighs on the side of suicide, for all the reasons I said then. (Which are too lengthy to get into here, but are easily accessible in that thread.) So the facts of this most recent episode--if true--are a reversal of the story Treem laid out. (Not a reversal of her external claims about the story she laid out, but the story she put on the air.) I guess I'm just able to consider this a serious failing without getting angry or needing to complain about it. I enjoyed this latest episode for it's own sake too much to do that. And that "if true" is an important caveat. This whole season has been in dream-state territory.

[cardigirl]

21 hours ago, LibertarianSlut said:

I know that this is coming out of left-field, as I pretty much hate Whitney, and I think Noah generally gets dogged too much,but I don't think Whitney needs to just "get over" her dad's affair and subsequent breaking up of her nuclear family when she was a teenager.  If my dad had done that, I would have been gutted.

I think that when a person devestates their family like that, they owe everyone involved not just a full and thorough explanation that they came up with, but I think it's their responsibility to work with a therapist to figure out why they did what they did, because we are so often very blind to our own failings.  Then, once the explanation is as complete as it's going to get, the family should be brought in to discuss the matter with the offender and the therapist, ask any questions they want, and receive full answers.  Unless or until that happens, I don't see how someone can "get over" something they can't even understand.

Maybe the therapy all happened off camera and Whitney is just jabbing at her dad to be a bitch.  She was a mad cow even before her dad cheated, so I'm entirely open to that possibility.  Also, now that she is an adult, she can go to therapy and deal with it on her own, but, absent a full explanation from Noah, I am kinda willing to give this one to Whitney if her dad is too busy or distracted to properly apologize to her.

"It doesn't matter where you go, you are there." Having had my marriage end because my husband cheated, I've done a lot of soul searching and wondering what happened and why it happened. One thing I have learned, that unless the person wants to figure out why he (or she) is the way he is, nothing is going to change.  They are going to repeat patterns of behavior because they aren't willing to admit that happiness (and unhappiness) is coming from within.

My kids were pretty grown when their father left me, but they still have questions, my son in particular, and I cannot answer them for him.  I always say that he needs to talk with his dad, but he finds it hard to ask  him about it, and they have a pretty good relationship.  So that part of the episode, where Whitney asked Noah why, seemed very true to me. In her eyes, up until her father left for Alison, her parents' marriage had been a good one, and she was wondering why he would leave it.   

[grommit2]

19 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

I've been rewatching the series, and Whitney was a whiny, spoiled, miserable bitch in Ep01, before Noah ever cheated. She was a teenager who went waltzing to the Lockhart ranch, supposedly to pick up her brother, semi-dressed and coming on to Scott, a man twice her age. Now she's just an older whiny, spoiled, miserable bitch, but one who wants to get married so should be mature enough to understand that marriages break down, love goes away, and that even her Daddy doesn't owe her his life and has the right to try and find some happiness.

Wait!!  Everyone is dumping on Whitney.  Yes, she is whiny.  And yes, she has been written that way from the very beginning.  But, friends, every TV show needs a whiny teen. And Whitney adds to the role by being self-entitled, experimental (the pool scene), on the far edge (Furkat?!), curiously loyal (her Great Britain boyfriend).  Geez...they really put a lot of effort into this character.  Yup...my favorite whiny teen-early 20s character. 

[Razzberry]

I understand kids thinking a parental breakup has something to do with them, but that's rarely the case, and I'm not sure there shouldn't be boundaries on discussing what goes on in adult relationships.

It seems to me that Noah has tried to explain his actions over and over again, to the point where he's now kind of a wimpy and disrespected father.  Whitney still uses the long ago split to manipulate him, imo.  When they pull up to Margaret's, she treats him like a footman hauling all her bags.  Then she just takes off and leaves him at the Lobster Roll without a car.  WTH?   Yet he never says a word to the princess.

[AngelaHunter]

6 hours ago, grommit2 said:

But, friends, every TV show needs a whiny teen. And Whitney adds to the role by being self-entitled, experimental (the pool scene), on the far edge (Furkat?!)

Yes, but she is no longer a teen. If she wishes to enter into marriage - a difficult proposition for anyone  - she needs to grow the fuck up. I guess I"m thinking of myself at that age, where if I had wished to whine and throw tantrums, no one in the vicinity would have given a shit. Not everyone can afford to act out this way. If you throw a tantrum or a pouting fit and no one is there to hear it or care about it, does it really matter? The grown-up world is not easy, nor is facing facts.

I notice Whiney only pulls this shit with Noah, counting on his eternal guilt to let her get her way. And "getting your own way" is not a mature thing.

[LoveLeigh]

This is such bullshit. As many here pointed out, Joanie would not have signed her real name to that form which would make even those foolish cops question it all. AND, many of Joanie's friends and her husband would verify she was not Cruz's "patient." 

Was that a dream? Will we see in another episode another version of what happened just as we saw two versions of Alison's death... and then be left to ponder with no answer what really happened? 

I say that because this Joanie episode was too preposterous, especially the way "the truth" rolled off Ben's tongue. His whole demeanor in this episode was either bad acting or the result of bad lines. 

Edited October 13, 2019 by DakotaLavender

[LoveLeigh]

Julia Goldani Telles is beautiful but she seems vacuous and I think that is why many of her scenes seem to have no "weight." I just think the part of Whitney was miscast. She seems more suited for rom coms. 

[Duke2801]

On 10/6/2019 at 10:28 PM, Giant Misfit said:

So, Helen AND her parents all live in homes that have got to go for around $10 million each and these people are crying poverty over a WEDDING tent?! OK, so Helen wasn't part of this particular ridiculous excursion -- and what was that even for? So Whitney could fly to Montauk to pick out a dress?? -- but surely she offered up some change to pay for some of this. And there is no snooty shop worker in the world who would have been that much of a bitch to the Solloways. I get those high-end retail people can be difficult but again, the writers have to hit everyone on the head with an anvil with their never-to-be-believed dialogue just in case there was ONE PERSON who didn't understand the women were being shitty. 

And good Christ that scene with Ben choking Joanie. Like now that we're aware he's Dr Extra-Cripsy Evil, are we really to suspend disbelief that he didn't go through with killing her only because it's what SHE wanted? And his evil scheme of knowing she'd "one day come to find him" had me rolling on the floor. COME. THE. FUCK. ON.

I've hated this show since S1 but this nonsense has really taken the cake. 

That’s a long time to hate-watch something. I admire your fortitude. 

[Duke2801]

17 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

Julia Goldani Telles is beautiful but she seems vacuous and I think that is why many of her scenes seem to have no "weight." I just think the part of Whitney was miscast. She seems more suited for rom coms. 

Idk... I saw her in a drama/horror movie recently called The Wind. She wasn’t the star, but she played her part pretty convincingly. I saw no trace of “ Whitney” in her at all. 

I personally think the major problem with Whitney is how the character is written. 

[AngelaHunter]

2 hours ago, Duke2801 said:

That’s a long time to hate-watch something. I admire your fortitude. 

Funny, I'm still rewatching and saw ep.04 last night, where Alison and Noah go to Block Island. It reminded me of how much I used to love everything about this show. The comparison between then and now, and how it's turned into an illogical, bad sit-com with a bunch of one-dimensional, kooky characters who never do anything that makes sense, is starkly showcased.

[Milburn Stone]

21 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

Was that a dream? Will we see in another episode another version of what happened just as we saw two versions of Alison's death... and then be left to ponder with no answer what really happened? 

With respect, I think if you've been watching this show from Season 1 forward with some expectation of knowing "what really happened" in any part of it, you're going to be disappointed. The show has never even hinted that it wants us to know what really happened. Quite the contrary, it unequivocally wants us to know that there's no way to know that.

I do think, in some sense, that the events depicted are dreams. But not the kind of dreams that end when you wake up.

Edited October 13, 2019 by Milburn Stone

[LoveLeigh]

3 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

With respect, I think if you've been watching this show from Season 1 forward with some expectation of knowing "what really happened" in any part of it, you're going to be disappointed. The show has never even hinted that it wants us to know what really happened. Quite the contrary, it unequivocally wants us to know that there's no way to know that.

I do think, in some sense, that the events depicted are dreams. But not the kind of dreams that end when you wake up.

I have been watching since Season 1 and while the versions have slight differences (the color of the wallpaper, Helen smiled, who saved Stacey from choking etc), the progression of the major plot points has been consistent.  

I believe there certainly can be a definite way to know what happened when Joanie visited Ben Cruz. I think there can really be a way to let us know how Alison died. These are major in the series and to leave even major plot narratives up in the air is just shtik in my opinion)

[T Summer]

I don't know if I'd use the word  dreamlike as several others have, but this mess  definitely had a surreal quality to it.  I'd love to find out that what occurred last week and this week  involving E.J. and Ben were all Joanie's hallucinations. I can't really add much that hasn't already been said about the absurdity  of   Ben having  laid this super flimsy trap for grown up Joanie that was 30 years in the making, but I have HUGE problems with how she came by all this new info she's acting on (via E.J.)! As I see it, that's when we went from a favorite show gone way off the rails to this dumpster fire we're witnessing now.

It's been what, 8 episodes since Alison was found in the water dead and this ep was the first mention of whether she had water in her lungs?  We learn she did, which indicates she drowned and wasn't dead when Ben  threw an injured unconscious Alison into the water. He could've felt for signs of a pulse or breathing and gotten her help. Since he didn't  I hope  Noah acts on seeing Ben's   assault charge in the paper and is instrumental in bringing him  to justice.  For that to happen the E.J.  and Ben stuff would have to have been Joanie's hallucinations in  6+7, though. It's a bit late in the day with just a few episodes left to be taking up time with  dream sequences, so we're probably stuck with this mess.

back in Montauk...
Who  was Noah to be saying  "the wedding's happening here, Margaret!" I know when Margaret was in Helen's kitchen he heard about Bruce's dementia and their financial reverses. Even if Whitney always imagined getting married at her grandparents house, it's time for a reality check. Plus they've been living in California. Are the family and all of Whitney and Colin's friends expected to schlep across the country to a place where the Solloways vacationed to attend their wedding?

Whitney says lets see what they've done to the Lobster Roll, it'll be hilarious! Really? The place her dad met and got involved  with Alison? Something she's still hurting over (his up and leaving her mother and siblings to start another family... in her eyes). What was with her seemingly annoyed reaction to Noah saying he didn't have a speech prepared  after she'd replied  yes she wanted to ask him about why he left? That seemed  odd, as do so many things.

 Noah said to Luisa I can't believe you got Cole to move to the city. Cole was living in  NYC with Luisa when he met up with Alison at a bar after she called him concerned about Scotty's mental state. All four of them were living in the city then, remember writers? I know Helen went to accompany Margaret and Noah was there because Alison was there working, but  still  it was pretty strange  for Luisa to be so curt with  Noah  who'd attended her wedding.  He was surprised to hear of the  split and  wished her well. Damn, that was a lot of  hostility for no reason  and I agree she's a character not  known for it.

If Whitney had shopped for a dress in the city where she lived so she could run back and forth to have any changes or  alterations done (as most normal people would), then daddy Noah couldn't have read about Ben's aggravated  assault charge in the local Montauk newspaper while waiting for her to model wedding gowns.  Same as  if mom had accompanied  her. I won't even get  started on what was wrong with that bridal shop scene!
 

When Noah said  to Whitney (who'd just confessed to cheating on Colin) is he likely to find out? I had to laugh. She says no despite the fact  Furcat was all over her at exhibit of his work. Plenty of people witnessed him hugging up on her, groveling at her feet demanding she forgive him  and showing her those goofy heart laden kaleidoscope photos of her. Do they know any of the same people, asks Noah? No, only the whole L.A art world!

About Noah f'ing Solloway, his women and the Eden allegations... "Eden Ellery". If that doesn't sound like a  4th grade girl made it up.

Near  the end of season 2 episode 8 at a hotel on the book tour Eden knocked on Noah's door saying "how about you never do this again?" She was showing him a cell phone recording of him drunk and taking a swing at Ernest Shiftbaum  at the bookstore. He put the moves on her pulling her into the room and she said "uh-uh, bad idea" . They were making out and she stopped in the middle saying  "I don't mix business with this kind of pleasure". That was before they were about to go in a guest room at the  Hollywood guy's party. Then as we all know Noah ran out after realizing one of the two women he was watching making out by the pool was Whitney!

Eden and Noah's  tryst is also shown in the intro to  s2 ep 9, which makes me  wonder if they planned on revisiting this all along?  Eden traveled with him on the book tour, made the travel arrangements,  booked his appearances   and just generally seemed to be controlling his every interaction with the public and press (and even Alison's)... not to mention texting him whenever she wasn't at his side. She was at his book party and their first Thanksgiving together, both  at their NYC apartment. Are all writers' publicists quite this intrusive? Thinking back to  the tour, Noah asked Helen if she liked his book and she was very encouraging and said "well, I can't read it without crying". Now this season she told Sasha she  doesn't think it's a very good book and only not so smart people like it. When Noah took that girl Daisy's number on the sly that night  (which Helen saw and demanded he hand over saying tell Alison she owes me one), I thought it was being inferred he was having such dalliances left and right, now that he was really feeling himself as a  big time author?

I see Noah as a womanizer who doesn't much care what kind of experience the women are having. As far back as s1 ep10 he  was shown flirting with a brunette  at his  gym's pool, next thing  they're asking each other's names whilst having sex.  Then  he's going  at it with a blonde. Then he's  with another brunette. (Helen said the detective her mother hired had all the women's names). The last scene in the ep before that was him telling Alison at the train station "I did it, I left Helen". This was  before his agent set him up at the writers' retreat in  Cold Springs where he had Alison staying with him.

When Noah stayed for the therapy session  that Alison didn't show up for  in s2 ep10  he confessed he wanted to sleep with his best student, 26 yr old  Lucy. Then he told the therapist about how he'd been  ready to cheat with Eden at that party. "She'd been after me for months.  I was ready to do it, she went to find us a room". That   led into telling her    how the shock of having seen his own daughter there made him panic and run out.  Noah finished  the session by saying he wanted to go to France for 2 years to write about that General and bed whatever women he wanted to without having to lie about it. All this while he was about  to marry a very pregnant Alison.  His relationship with her always seemed a usurious one to me.  Yet we're to believe  meeting Alison the waitress in a small town was so transformative that he went   from  a faithful husband of 25 years to this smug Lothario  we see today who can never seem to  achieve one bit of  personal growth?

Without their viewpoints we'll never know if any of those women felt  pressured into sleeping with Noah. As far as what we have been shown, if anyone was going to accuse him  of coercive sex it should have been Alison way back when over  that strangely aggressive sex act by the tree at that retreat. I found it uncomfortable to watch. On whole a separate train of thought... What a contrast to that intimate scene between Cole and Alison (the one where she had the child's band aid on her finger) shown in s1 ep1 and shown again when Cole was cradling her urn at the cemetery remembering.

I don't so much miss Alison as I always found the character to be a very  poorly drawn one. The only reason I wish she'd stayed  was to see  she and Cole  get back together.  He seemed to love her so, and he was the only one she trusted and felt truly valued by.  Cole's being gone has definitely lessened my enjoyment of the show; he was my favorite character followed by Helen.  The four principals and late comer Omar Metwally all deserve some sort of acting award  the industry has yet to  invent  for doing  their best to breathe life into this shoddy material and try and make make it believable. I really liked The Affair  in the beginning  but feel the quality of the writing took  a nosedive.   I'd rather see Helen get her happy ending with Sasha than end up back with Noah, though that's not  looking like the road we're on.

[AngelaHunter]

4 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

These are major in the series and to leave even major plot narratives up in the air is just shtik in my opinion)

Yes, I think so too. On rewatch, it's obvious there are differences depending on POV, e.g.,  in Noah's eyes Alison was always a sexy temptress but she saw herself as a frumpy sadsack. IMO, this made perfect sense. That's very different than having two versions of actual events. Having two sides of each event be diametrically opposed leads to frustration since we never know what really happened. If we have to watch and always think that what we're seeing is not what happened from either POV it makes it all kind of pointless, IMO.

[T Summer]

I get the frustration with different viewpoints, however is it really up in the air as far as what happened to  Alison?

In the  ep where Alison died in the  1st viewpoint (both hers) Alison did not jump to her death off the jetty. We didn't see anything like that. It ends with her cutting her finger at the sink.

Some want to ignore what Sara Treem said off the show that she was killed... fair enough.

However on the show in the second viewpoint we see Ben overpower Alison as she tries to get out the door, he shoves her and she hits her head and looses consciousness. He then carries out and drops her seemingly lifeless  body into the water. Except for sparing her that last part, it was just as Ben described to Joanie  in this episode (7). Did anyone see something different?

The only place confusion can come from that I can see is when we hear  this in Alison's voice  (played over the scene where  he carried her out and dropped her   and as she floated down in the water).  "What are you going to do Ben, kill me?  You think that scares me? My son died, he died in my fucking arms! So what in God's name do you think  you can  to do to me that I haven't already done to myself, a million times? I've been in  pain my entire life.... "

I never thought for one instant that Alison would commit suicide and leave Joanie, leave work that she felt a calling to do  and  leave Cole. She did tell him she loved him when he said he loved her (when Cole was being held overnight at the police station  after  Noah's was "attack"). Just because he was trying to make a go of it with Luisa there is no way I believe the character Alison thought she and Cole would never ever be  together again. Even if she was getting  on with her life and dating others. They  had a conversation at her place about how he could fulfill his vows to Luisa  and appear a good guy or be with her  and risk being seen as flawed like everyone else. This was before he went walkabout to figure things out.

She had friends, money and good health as well. Who ends it at 35 with that kind of life? ... and I don't believe for one minute she'd be allowed to counsel people who'd just lost children if she herself had unmitigated depression. No doubt along with whatever training they required, she had to undergo psychological testing before being given access  to   Woodhaven's  patients.

[nara]

On 10/6/2019 at 2:08 PM, mxc90 said:

At the restaurant, Whitney and Noah couldn't get their story straight how Stacey was saved from choking in season one. And since we got two POVs of this story (Noah and Alison), we'll never know.

On 10/6/2019 at 10:24 PM, nara said:

Since we have 2 of 3 POVs saying Alison is the one who helped her, I think we can assume that was true.

I was mistaken. In a rewatch of the pilot, Noah saved Stacey in his POV. I wonder why he remembers differently now...

[poeticlicensed]

I am behind this season, but the whole wedding planning thing is completely ridic. If money is tight, you don't fly to the east coast to go wedding dress shopping. And I did not undertsand about the plates. Unless you order the food from Olive Garden, most caterers provide plates and silverware, so what was the BFD? You blindly go into wedding planning with no set budget and no one talks about money? 

I cannot get on the Joanie train. I find the whole storyline unbelievable. 

I actually think bringing #metoo into this might be interesting, but only if we get Eden's POV, and I am loathe to watch another POV on this show. But, maybe while we were seeing women falling all over themselves to sleep with Noah, remember that it's HIS POV. Maybe it looks different to others. That would be super interesting. 

So will the finale be the wedding? Oh please God no.  

[grommit2]

16 hours ago, nara said:

I was mistaken. In a rewatch of the pilot, Noah saved Stacey in his POV. I wonder why he remembers differently now...

My guess...Noah was trying to re-engineer his memory in an attempt at cleaning up his image.  After all, he saw Alison with those long lean legs, etc etc <<graphics not inserted>> and his brain stopped working for a few minutes.  This is a known reptilian function of all male brains. 

[Blakeston]

I, for one, completely understand why Luisa would be bitter about babysitting for Noah's kids so many years later.

Can you even fathom how miserable it would be to babysit a young Whitney and Trevor? The world's most brutal sweatshop would be sweet relief compared to that.

[KBrownie]

26 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

I, for one, completely understand why Luisa would be bitter about babysitting for Noah's kids so many years later.

Can you even fathom how miserable it would be to babysit a young Whitney and Trevor? The world's most brutal sweatshop would be sweet relief compared to that.

Lol.

Also, as far as she knows, Noah is still the guy that killed her at-the-time husband's loved little brother.  As far as she knows Cole still despises him.  Of course she has an attitude with him.  She doesn't know Noah didn't kill Scott.  And I don't think that Noah was treating the hired help's daughter like a BFF at any time in the past, so I don't get why some people had a problem with Luisa's attitude toward him.  

[T Summer]

On 10/21/2019 at 9:32 AM, poeticlicensed said:

I am behind this season, but the whole wedding planning thing is completely ridic. If money is tight, you don't fly to the east coast to go wedding dress shopping. And I did not undertsand about the plates. Unless you order the food from Olive Garden, most caterers provide plates and silverware, so what was the BFD? You blindly go into wedding planning with no set budget and no one talks about money? 

I cannot get on the Joanie train. I find the whole storyline unbelievable. 

I actually think bringing #metoo into this might be interesting, but only if we get Eden's POV, and I am loathe to watch another POV on this show. But, maybe while we were seeing women falling all over themselves to sleep with Noah, remember that it's HIS POV. Maybe it looks different to others. That would be super interesting. 

So will the finale be the wedding? Oh please God no.  

THIS!, a thousand times

To me the only part MORE unbelievable was throwing E.J.  into the mix to convey to Joanie all the info she's been missing  over the last 30 years in one chance meeting.🙄

[T Summer]

6 hours ago, KBrownie said:

Lol.

Also, as far as she knows, Noah is still the guy that killed her at-the-time husband's loved little brother.  As far as she knows Cole still despises him.  Of course she has an attitude with him.  She doesn't know Noah didn't kill Scott.  And I don't think that Noah was treating the hired help's daughter like a BFF at any time in the past, so I don't get why some people had a problem with Luisa's attitude toward him.  

You're right! I completely forgot about that. Sometimes with this show it's hard to remember what actually happened and what the characters think happened. Scotty's death, and Alison's death being the main ones . Then there's that never to be untangled mess  of what did or did not happen to Noah in and just out of prison in s3.

[Dminches]

When Noah is driving Margaret's car and the reporter calls he picks the call up via the car's blue tooth connection.  I seriously doubt he had the time and inclination to pair his phone with the car.  Really shoddy writing, if you can call it that.

I do think that Julia Telles' acting was terrific in this episode and has been good the whole season.  That may be the only positive for season 5.

Anna Paquin was pretty good on True Blood.  She is awful on The Affair.  I can't tell how much of it is the writing and directing.

[Aqua]

On 10/6/2019 at 8:06 AM, NeenerNeener said:

So, either Helen is so self-involved that she didn't bother to tell Whitney that Grandma and Grandpa are now skint and Grandpa has dementia, or she did and Whitless  is so self-involved that she chose to ignore the information. Either one makes them horrible people.

Helen did tell Whitney this when she was visiting her in L.A., and Whitney behaved as if it were a personal inconvenience to her. This was back in last season I believe or early this season.

[Aqua]

On 10/6/2019 at 11:12 PM, Badlands said:

Did Joanie sign her real name on the form? It would be pretty idiotic for her to say her name was "Gabrielle" and then sign it with her real name... so that's probably what she did.

Most people I know use  scribble for a signature so you can't really tell. I do, anyway.

[Aqua]

On 10/7/2019 at 2:51 PM, JenE4 said:

I disagree with the comments that the show is “faking” a #metoo storyline. Noah Fucking Solloway imagined every woman ever throwing herself at him (example, girl at the diner giving him “fuck me eyes” until he realized she was really hitting on Sasha), so of course his recollection is Eden hitting on him. So I wouldn’t bat an eye for a second with her memory feeling pressured or that her job was on the line. But in the year 2019, it’s *wrong* for any boss to be sleeping with a subordinate, so I can see the “media industry” (both as this show and fictionally within this show) wanting to go back and do a little retcon that in the pre-Weinstein era a couple of seasons back, ooh, this storyline doesn’t really make the cut today that we made Noah such a lothario. 

MeToo is nothing new. This type of behavior was not accepted in the late seventies. I know, I was there, and it was just as much fight back, "EWWW," "Expose this fucker"  as there is now. The idea that MeToo is a 2020s invention is hopelessly ahistoric and inaccurate.

[Aqua]

I don't find Ben's ability to provide to the detectives fake medical reports for Joanie all that unbelievable. He lives in an analog world with paper records and as soon she walked out the door he could quickly create a folder with some notes and edit that tape so it's ready to play in case Joanie came back with the cops which she implied she would do. I think he could assemble all his backup material in a few hours.

What I did find unbelievable is that Joanie would turn and walk out the door knowing a gun is on the desk and she could be shot in the back. I think the more logical choice is grab the gun and the recorder and run out the door.

But I guess we are supposed to believe that Joanie really wants to be killed as evidenced by her "Harder" requests as Ben is later choking her. Sorry, I'm not buying it. It is actually pretty easy to kill oneself and if Joanie really wanted to do this, she would have done it long ago.

It makes more logical sense that she would leave with the cops rather than try and reason with Ben after he's proven himself to be a pathological and occasionally psychotic liar.

I also think it's interesting that while Ben claims he killed her, he also describes it as an accident whereby he would not even legally held responsible, as the way he describes it, she fell into a bookshelf and was struck by a statue. As an attorney I'm pretty sure in a court of law, if those facts were believed it should survive a motion for acquittal on that charge. Throwing her body in the ocean would be a separate charge, unlawful disposal of a corpse or something similar if a jury believed he thought she was already dead when he did it.

I think someone mentioned Joanie took a huge chance by agreeing to the EMDS or whatever. I saw it as she faked the therapy. She's a scientist and fought against the trance.

 

[debraran]

I'm new to this show but watched in a week. I liked it but too much sex in the beginning, I know it was about that but it seemed almost an eye roll at times. I found the relationships pretty real but seeing it end, had some observations. Some of these are because the writer didn't have an outline like the writers of This is Us had, they had the seasons planned out and room for minor tweaks. She was winging it at times and admitted she didn't know where some were going.

I thought Noah's ending was good but glossing over the Me Too stuff was glaring in the last season Some of the women were using his treatment for notoriety, but he was an ass, and the woman at the Halloween party was spot on.  Not one line later about money or the book or movie or how he was getting by. Stupid flowers from Sasha. That fell flat for me. Did Whitney know about escaping the fires and the snake bite and what her dad did? She still banned him but took his money to pay for it? That fell flat but I enjoyed the dance and the grandfather's humor within his dementia and her late acceptance at the motel. The family was broken but not irreparable.

Cole's demise was sad, I would have liked him to know he was right about Ben and having some closure but he wouldn't have let him get away with it. The writers said they just didn't have enough material for season 5 for him to turn down other offers. 

And the BIGGEST idiotic writing was Joane and Ben. Miss Tech, who has all the fancy devices, does not think to bring anything to tape him? He tapes her??? She goes with no way to prove anything he says and no protection. Even if Eddie stayed in the car, she shouldn't have gone alone. I will ignore the fact that blood would have been found at her mom's apartment and on the statue and the police investigation was lazy. Would it have been if Ruth left on good terms?  I know Ruth felt sexual harassment at work and not "safe" and I feel for her leaving and the money was secondary. Others backed her up it seemed but of course producers said they did whatever they could to help her and use body doubles etc when she felt uncomfortable. But it was also what men would say to her. That type of language and action will die hard in Hollywood or any movie set but is getting better. You can tell how they treated her memory later that it didn't end well, even her death was unfulfilling on the show. Funny the Me Too movement existed off and on the set.

I did like Helen's character although she seemed too perfect, so many men after her, she was the best of the best, that was a bit much but she had the best conversations with Noah later and I feel they came full circle as her daughter said, "they were just orbiting"

I will hear Fiona Apple's song in my head all week and I will miss it but I wish it had been a little better and lasted a little longer.

Edited July 19, 2021 by debraran

[Aqua]

Glad someone else is still watching! I gripe a lot about this show but I will miss it when it's gone. Not sure what to watch next.