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S02.E07: The Return


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A trip to the UK finds the Roy kids negotiating with their mother; Logan turns to Rhea for advice.

Jeremy Strong broke my heart in this episode. You could just see him physically wilt and wanting to apologize to those parents so badly and knowing he can’t. Kendall just wanted acknowledgment and love from one of his parents and he couldn’t even get that. JS deserves some award love for this season; he is killing it. 

I may never forgive this show for denying me scenes of a Tom and Greg sleepover. 

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10 minutes ago, Princess Sparkle said:

A trip to the UK finds the Roy kids negotiating with their mother; Logan turns to Rhea for advice.

Jeremy Strong broke my heart in this episode. You could just see him physically wilt and wanting to apologize to those parents so badly and knowing he can’t. Kendall just wanted acknowledgment and love from one of his parents and he couldn’t even get that. JS deserves some award love for this season; he is killing it. 

I may never forgive this show for denying me scenes of a Tom and Greg sleepover. 

AGREE.

Boy, Mum is a piece of work too. Kendall wanted to confess to her and she just bailed on him. I understand the instinct to want to come clean to Mother, but in the end I'm sort of glad he didn't. Something tells me she wouldn't exactly have been a beacon of loving support.  I don't know how much more Kendall can take.  At least he has a little affection from Naomi.

Rhea is pretty shameless. Did she just essentially tell Shiv she's screwing Logan while simultaneously setting Shiv up? Damn.

Looks like Marcia's about to get a few more scenes!

Edited by Aja
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I have never been more worried about a fictional character's mental health than I do Kendall. The work Jeremy Strong is doing is almost too good, watching him makes me uncomfortable because it feels so lived in and real. Just his physicality alone. And it makes it even worse because the last episode and the beginning of this episode was probably the happiest we've ever seen him. It's tough to see it all go away in mere seconds and simply because Logan was clearly punishing him for expressing his worries about Rhea (which is perfectly reasonable but to Logan any of his children questioning his judgement must immediately pay for it). 

Edited by haje
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Shiv’s nips must be hard.

And she must have a big knife wound in her back after Rhea finished with her.

Caroline wants the kids to come to her every Christmas and has to bargain for it.  It’s no wonder she has to make them, she’ll offer them pigeons with buckshot and feathers but none of the compassion a mother might be expected to show her children.

Roman doesn’t hesitate a second when given the mission to screw over his mother.

Kendall has too much of a conscience for this family and the world of giant corporations.  He can be a bastard too but he can’t do it often enough to go the distance.

Hell “Gregory” is more devious than Kendall.  He knows not to trust Tom so he’ll wiretap Tom, keep a little bit of insurance.

Logan will scheme with Rhea against Shiv before he’s willing to have a heart to heart with her.

Father of the year!

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I think Rhea realized that you have to be part of the family if you want to run the company, so she just might need to replace Marcia to get the job she wants. After rewatching some of last season, I realized that Shiv's mother referred to Marcia as the "Middle East Bureau Chief" or something like that, so it seems like Logan met Marcia through work as well.

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Logan is the worst.  FFS, I get that he is upset that Kendall dared to question him about Rhea and I'm sure his panties were in a bunch that Kendall was "sleeping with the enemy" Naomi, but damn, to drag him to those people's house?

Logan is playing a dangerous game.  He pushes but not TOO hard.  And he could miscalculate one of these days and Kendall will just confess or hurt himself or find a way to punish himself publicly.  

Logan may be seeing Kendall getting more independent and strong.  Yelling at Logan in the last episode, pursuing a relationship with Naomi, questioning Logan about Rhea.  Kendall was right back to "my dad's plan was better" during the car ride home.  

Carolina knows she can't force the kids to spend the holidays with her, she just did it to poke a stick in Logan's eye.  

I also think that "payoff" may come back to haunt Logan, I sure hope so.  

1 minute ago, RealReality said:
Edited by RealReality
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I like to think that Roman’s remark about “Sally Anne and the summer of the horses” finally identifies the Sharon Stone type lounging by the pool in the opening title sequence. Because it sure ain’t Lady Caroline.

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I didn't have any problem with Logan forcing Kendall to accompany him to the grieving family's home. Kendall is the reason the guy is dead; the least Kendall can do is face that fact instead of skipping off to the zoo with Naomi and pretending that none of this has anything to do with him. I'm sure he felt terrible looking at all the photos of the deceased as a child and meeting his father, but you know what? Too fucking bad. Kendall was the one who caused all this misery and who left him to die. And yes, Logan made Kendall come with him as punishment for the Rhea thing and the Naomi thing, and yes, Logan obviously doesn't give a shit about these people, either. Nevertheless, the fact remains.

Caroline complains about the children never coming to see her, but when Kendall asks her for maternal support on something truly important to him, she can't be bothered. It's pretty clear that demanding Christmases with the kids was just a power move (and a way of demonstrating to the children that Logan cared more about keeping the summer palace than about spending time with them).

Another potential tidbit about Roman's sexuality is that the oppo research learned (or at least heard a rumour) that his personal trainer jacked him off, and of course as we saw in S1 his personal trainer is a man. On the other hand, Roman denied it, and usually he cheerfully owns up to his depravities, so we'll see.

It's funny that as Shiv comes apart at the seams professionally, she looks increasingly polished in each subsequent episode. Her outfits this episode were banging. Love the tailored blouses.

More fun with meaningful names: the name of the firm hired to conduct an internal investigation and presumably whitewash the firm's misdeeds was "Blanch."

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22 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I didn't have any problem with Logan forcing Kendall to accompany him to the grieving family's home. Kendall is the reason the guy is dead; the least Kendall can do is face that fact instead of skipping off to the zoo with Naomi and pretending that none of this has anything to do with him. I'm sure he felt terrible looking at all the photos of the deceased as a child and meeting his father, but you know what? Too fucking bad. Kendall was the one who caused all this misery and who left him to die. And yes, Logan made Kendall come with him as punishment for the Rhea thing and the Naomi thing, and yes, Logan obviously doesn't give a shit about these people, either. Nevertheless, the fact remains.

Caroline complains about the children never coming to see her, but when Kendall asks her for maternal support on something truly important to him, she can't be bothered. It's pretty clear that demanding Christmases with the kids was just a power move (and a way of demonstrating to the children that Logan cared more about keeping the summer palace than about spending time with them).

Another potential tidbit about Roman's sexuality is that the oppo research learned (or at least heard a rumour) that his personal trainer jacked him off, and of course as we saw in S1 his personal trainer is a man. On the other hand, Roman denied it, and usually he cheerfully owns up to his depravities, so we'll see.

It's funny that as Shiv comes apart at the seams professionally, she looks increasingly polished in each subsequent episode. Her outfits this episode were banging. Love the tailored blouses.

More fun with meaningful names: the name of the firm hired to conduct an internal investigation and presumably whitewash the firm's misdeeds was "Blanch."

I do have a problem with it because it's all Logan will allow Kendall to do.  

If Kendall should feel terrible then that mission accomplished from day one.  Would he feel any worse in jail?  I actually don't think so.  Kendall's current punishment  feels worse than a few years in jail for manslaughter or negligent homicide.  

Whether or not Kendall fucked up, should he never be allowed to move on with life?  He can never visit a zoo?  Try to find happiness?  I can't agree with that. 

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1 hour ago, RealReality said:

.  If Kendall should feel terrible then that mission accomplished from day one.  Would he feel any worse in jail?  I actually don't think so.  Kendall's current punishment  feels worse than a few years in jail for manslaughter or negligent homicide.  

Yes, screw prison: true suffering is jetting off to beautiful locales and attending swank soirees, throwing drug-fuelled parties, hoovering all the coke your body will allow, and wooing your gorgeous girlfriend, as long as you occasionally feel bad. Jeremy Strong's exquisite acting aside, there's nothing remotely  sympathetic about a privileged douchebag, who has done absolutely nothing to make amends for his actions in any fashion (even getting sober!), feeling sad about having to confront the fact that he's responsible for a death instead of getting to go to the zoo.

I mean, there's a reason we sentence people to prison, and not to three years of "feeling bad while enjoying your usual lifestyle."

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Whether or not Kendall fucked up

Caused a man's death. Not "fucked up." And it's not in question at this point that he caused the man's death. We saw it happen. 

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should he never be allowed to move on with life?

Without any meaningful attempts at change or restitution? (And no, shoving cash through a mail slot does not count as "meaningful.") Nope. He caused a man's death. He shouldn't get to move on without even minimal attempts at acknowledgment and restitution (none of which he has done, even the step of getting sober which would be the least he could do). Also, as I said, "feeling bad" is not actual punishment. And really, why is it so terrible that Kendall feels bad? Kendall should feel bad. You should feel bad when you do terrible things. 

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He can never visit a zoo?  Try to find happiness?  I can't agree with that. 

It's a testament to the power of Jeremy Strong's acting that anyone's seriously arguing that it's more important for Kendall to have fun at the zoo and enjoy life than to meet the family of the person whose death he caused.

On a non-Kendall note, how terrible must that Shiv memo have been if even Tom gently wondered why Shiv didn't send it to him first?

Edited by Eyes High
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Kendall has a conscience despite who his parents are.

Logan gaslit him a bit about his culpability.  The kid swerved the car into the water, not Kendall, who tried to pull the kid out but couldn’t.

What Kendall did wrong was to try to cover up his involvement and him probably being high when he was driving, to get more drugs.

A rich douchebag wouldn’t display any conscience in this situation.  He’d be more like Logan, faking the compassion for the family.  Or using this visit to exert power over his son because he had questioned whatever he was doing with Rhea.

He also didn’t like that Kendall might be happy for the first time in a long time so he had to crush that too.

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20 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Yes, screw prison: true suffering is jetting off to beautiful locales and attending swank soirees, throwing drug-fuelled parties, hoovering all the coke your body will allow, and wooing your gorgeous girlfriend, as long as you occasionally feel bad. Jeremy Strong's exquisite acting aside, there's nothing remotely  sympathetic about a privileged douchebag, who has done absolutely nothing to make amends for his actions in any fashion (even getting sober!), feeling sad about having to confront the fact that he's responsible for a death instead of getting to go to the zoo.

I mean, there's a reason we sentence people to prison, and not to three years of "feeling bad while enjoying your usual lifestyle."

Caused a man's death. Not "fucked up." And it's not in question at this point that he caused the man's death. We saw it happen. 

Without any meaningful attempts at change or restitution? (And no, shoving cash through a mail slot does not count as "meaningful.") Nope. He caused a man's death. He shouldn't get to move on without even minimal attempts at acknowledgment and restitution (none of which he has done, even the step of getting sober which would be the least he could do). Also, as I said, "feeling bad" is not actual punishment. And really, why is it so terrible that Kendall feels bad? Kendall should feel bad. You should feel bad when you do terrible things. 

It's a testament to the power of Jeremy Strong's acting that anyone's seriously arguing that it's more important for Kendall to have fun at the zoo and enjoy life than to meet the family of the person whose death he caused.

Okay, so Kendall has to suffer, but this suffering has to be done in the right location or else it's not punishment enough? 

Because plenty people in prison don't feel guilty about what they have done and don't really suffer beyond eating crappy food and being locked up.  

I don't think Kendall has ever shown any other feeling besides the one that he is responsible for that kids death.  And at the end of the day, it was an accident.  

I don't think external punishment is often as bad as the punishment we put ourselves through.  

Kendall would be much, much, much better off if he were to admit what happened and let the cards drop where they may.  

There would be a question of culpability even under the law.  

But even if there was culpability there is a likelihood that Kendall would suffer far less by publicly admitting guilt. 

1. People are far more willing to forgive someone who does jail time if they have committed a crime - while not the exact same crimes, Marion Barry retained political office after smoking crack, Martha Stewart retains an empire after her stint in federal prison vs. Ted Kennedy.

2. The "kid" was a "druggie" who was hooking Kendall up with drugs in exchange for money.  He wasn't culpable, but he isn't the same sympathetic victim that an innocent pedestrian, bicyclist or other driver would be.   

3. That kid chose to get behind the wheel with a guy who was high and who he was taking to get drugs.  There is no assumption of the risk, but again, this wasn't a pedestrian or fellow driver minding their own business without any ability to make a decision to not be involved with a driver under the influence.

4. This happened in a different country.  Love it or lump it people just don't care quite as much if the victim isn't a citizen and the crime happened overseas.  Amanda Knox was the exception and not the rule.

So, while I don't think anyone in the legal system would blame the victim, I think the mitigating factors would play a role in determining Kendall's punishment and subsequent ability to return to the world after a prison term.....which would likely be short.  

Would he be allowed to enjoy life after a short prison term?  If the point is to be punished and the internal punishment and guilt he puts himself through isnt enough, how much of an external punishment does he need before he is allowed back at a zoo?  Allowed to have a relationship?  Allowed anything good in life?  

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Kendall slipping the money through the family’s letterbox was so painful to watch. The tension in that scene- will he knock on the door, will he- oh no- don’t put the money in the house! 

He is such a lost soul. All he can think to offer is money. Not to offer anything of himself. Not to face the situation, but to do has be has been taught, money is the answer. It’s no absolution and it weakens him once again. He repeatedly acts in ways that push him deeper into a hole reinforcing to himself that he is worthless and has nothing to offer as a person.

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1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

It's a testament to the power of Jeremy Strong's acting that anyone's seriously arguing that it's more important for Kendall to have fun at the zoo and enjoy life than to meet the family of the person whose death he caused

Maybe I missed it, but I thought Kendal’s zoo visit plans arose before he knew about the fake-amends visit plans to the dead cater-waiter’s family. Even if that’s true, it’s still loathsome (but consistent with Kendal’s compromised character), since he tried to put off the fake-amends visit based on his pre-existing zoo plans. 

The writers have written him well as someone not 100% compromised. He is pretty low and his personal “suffering” hardly seems commensurate with killing someone. But he is not a sociopath like his father. 

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1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

Yes, screw prison: true suffering is jetting off to beautiful locales and attending swank soirees, throwing drug-fuelled parties, hoovering all the coke your body will allow, and wooing your gorgeous girlfriend, as long as you occasionally feel bad. Jeremy Strong's exquisite acting aside, there's nothing remotely  sympathetic about a privileged douchebag, who has done absolutely nothing to make amends for his actions in any fashion (even getting sober!), feeling sad about having to confront the fact that he's responsible for a death instead of getting to go to the zoo.

I mean, there's a reason we sentence people to prison, and not to three years of "feeling bad while enjoying your usual lifestyle."

Caused a man's death. Not "fucked up." And it's not in question at this point that he caused the man's death. We saw it happen. 

Without any meaningful attempts at change or restitution? (And no, shoving cash through a mail slot does not count as "meaningful.") Nope. He caused a man's death. He shouldn't get to move on without even minimal attempts at acknowledgment and restitution (none of which he has done, even the step of getting sober which would be the least he could do). Also, as I said, "feeling bad" is not actual punishment. And really, why is it so terrible that Kendall feels bad? Kendall should feel bad. You should feel bad when you do terrible things. 

It's a testament to the power of Jeremy Strong's acting that anyone's seriously arguing that it's more important for Kendall to have fun at the zoo and enjoy life than to meet the family of the person whose death he caused.

On a non-Kendall note, how terrible must that Shiv memo have been if even Tom gently wondered why Shiv didn't send it to him first?

Agreed. Kendall could stop his current suffering or start to fix it by publicly confessing. It would free him from his father as well. He's not doing it because he considers that and prison a greater punishment both in terms of the changes to his life and his reputation.  He's not doing his time. He's afraid of that.

I hated what Logan did because Logan was using the family for his own greedy ends but not for making Kendell face them. I kind of hoped it might inspire him to do something unexpected. 

1 hour ago, scrb said:

Kendall has a conscience despite who his parents are.

Logan gaslit him a bit about his culpability.  The kid swerved the car into the water, not Kendall, who tried to pull the kid out but couldn’t.

What Kendall did wrong was to try to cover up his involvement and him probably being high when he was driving, to get more drugs.

A rich douchebag wouldn’t display any conscience in this situation.  He’d be more like Logan, faking the compassion for the family.  Or using this visit to exert power over his son because he had questioned whatever he was doing with Rhea.

He also didn’t like that Kendall might be happy for the first time in a long time so he had to crush that too.

KENDELL was driving that car,  not the dead boy. The boy said he couldn't drive and Ken assured him he could. Kendall was lucky or the cops lied in saying the boy managed to undo his seat belt so he wasn't obviously just a passenger. I believe everyone knows the waiter was high.

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12 hours ago, Princess Sparkle said:

Jeremy Strong broke my heart in this episode. You could just see him physically wilt and wanting to apologize to those parents so badly and knowing he can’t. Kendall just wanted acknowledgment and love from one of his parents and he couldn’t even get that. JS deserves some award love for this season; he is killing it. 

I may never forgive this show for denying me scenes of a Tom and Greg sleepover. 

I texted my sister "I cannot believe what Logan is doing to Kendall".  Yeah Jeremy Strong needs to win an Emmy.  I bet next year Succession will be recognized much more, now that everyone got GoT out of their system.  

Greg and his "Secret" file.   If he'd been really smart he would have scanned those documents, or took photos from his phone, put them on a thumb drive (or as Tina Fey's character in Date Night calls it "the sticky in thing"), and hidden it somewhere.  And just burned the copies. 

Tom will soon learn, it's not the crime, which he had absolutely nothing to do with, it's the cover up, which he engineered.   

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I understand that Kendall is responsible for the position he is in now, but oh my god did I want someone, ANYONE, to give him a hug.  Obviously, if the guilt is weighing on him that much, he could always turn himself in or confess to a priest or something, but I think he is craving some kind of punishment.  Logan's actions may end up backfiring on him if he keeps pushing Kendall to face his guilt.  I"m not saying that Kendall shouldn't feel guilty or that he shouldn't be punished, but I have a feeling that if and when he does take responsibility, it will be after he has snapped and he will end up doing spectacular damage to the family. 

For some reason, I was craving a real conversation between Roman and Kendall during that eggy/breakfast scene.  I know that Roman is probably the least likely to give Ken any kind of compassion or empathy but I was pissed that he didn't seem to notice, or at least care, that his brother is CLEARLY going through something. The brother who stuck up for him and physically got between him and his shitheel of a father.  Of course, I wouldn't be surprised if Kendall's protectiveness only made Roman hate him more.  And I keep waiting for Shiv to mention that Kendall was crying in her arms to someone, even just Tom, but...nothing.

I'm glad that it looks like they are banding together at least.  It is a huge testament to the acting and the writing that I care about these assholes as much as I do.

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1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

KENDELL was driving that car,  not the dead boy. The boy said he couldn't drive and Ken assured him he could. Kendall was lucky or the cops lied in saying the boy managed to undo his seat belt so he wasn't obviously just a passenger. I believe everyone knows the waiter was high.

Yes, but the boy grabbed the wheel and swerved the car, which I think is what the poster was referring to. 

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24 minutes ago, Princess Sparkle said:

Yes, but the boy grabbed the wheel and swerved the car, which I think is what the poster was referring to. 

True, but the boy grabbed the wheel because Kendall, who was also high and an inexperienced driver, was fiddling with the gear shift he couldn't really work and not looking at the road where there was a deer right in front of them. To me it even looks like Jeremy Strong performs that moment with the gear shift as Kendall having slowed reaction time, the way he's dealing with the gear shift.

So Kendell isn't being gaslighted about his responsibility. He chose to DUI, wasn't looking at the road and probably also wasn't reacting quickly enough to anything. Of course he didn't intentionally leave the kid to die, but he's not being accused of being a murderer, just being irresponsible and careless and reckless, which he was. Iirc, this is even what Logan scared him with, everyone seeing him as some privileged rich boy who should have been the one at the bottom of the lake. 

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8 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Roman was the one who went to get Kendall when he was on a drug binge in New Mexico in S1.

Oh yeah - thanks for the reminder!  This makes me want to go back and rewatch season 1 now that I have a better feel for the show. Maybe there's hope for Roman after all!

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43 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

True, but the boy grabbed the wheel because Kendall, who was also high and an inexperienced driver, was fiddling with the gear shift he couldn't really work and not looking at the road where there was a deer right in front of them. To me it even looks like Jeremy Strong performs that moment with the gear shift as Kendall having slowed reaction time, the way he's dealing with the gear shift.

So Kendell isn't being gaslighted about his responsibility. He chose to DUI, wasn't looking at the road and probably also wasn't reacting quickly enough to anything. Of course he didn't intentionally leave the kid to die, but he's not being accused of being a murderer, just being irresponsible and careless and reckless, which he was. Iirc, this is even what Logan scared him with, everyone seeing him as some privileged rich boy who should have been the one at the bottom of the lake. 

He was gaslighted in the way Logan said he would forever be known for this incident and this incident only.

I forget the wording but it basically made Kendall surrender, just sobbing like a child.

If you're driving and an animal jumps out, you run it over, or at least I recall that being the lesson of my driving instructor way back.  The rationale is, a sudden stop or swerve means you risk other human lives, either those behind you or those whom you may swerve into.

I was in Italy this summer, driving in broad daylight and I noticed a doe sprinting on the right side of my car.  We were on intercepting paths.  So I sped up and saw the doe cross the road just behind my car.  It never slowed down.

There was a car behind me that stopped pretty hard.

It was more instinct, to get out of the way of the animal's path.  I don't know what spooked the animal enough to run in front of cars which were probably fairly noisy.

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This was a great episode and Jeremy Strong really knocked it out of the park. They all do, every week, but he was beyond great this week, as he revisited the horror of that night and the events that led up to the young man's death. 

I have a question for others who watch this show and comment here.  Reviewers all seem to adore Shiv, either because of her hair, her clothes, or because they all think she is as smart as she thinks she is, but I was happy to find her out in the cold after her attempt to force Logan to name her publicly, her dinosaur-gate issues, and her too sincere "memo."  

Am I missing something?  I mean, I love all the characters, because of how well they are written and acted, but I'm definitely not rooting for her particularly. 

I don't understand the adoration for Shiv, she's not as smart as she thinks she is. 🙂  

I still think Greg might end up on the "Iron Throne" but at this point, would love to see Roman take it all.  

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1 hour ago, scrb said:

He was gaslighted in the way Logan said he would forever be known for this incident and this incident only.

I don't think he's gaslighting him. Frightening him, definitely, but he's not messing with Kendall's own memory or perception of events. That's why it's so easy--he's telling Kendall what he already knows or at least believes, since he can't really know what would happen. Logan is pretty accurate in describing the public consequences Kendall is afraid to face.

The kid's impulse to grab the wheel was fatally wrong, but Kendall knows he himself was stoned and not even looking at the road and didn't see the deer ahead of him. If he had, and if he'd been sober and maybe a better driver too, he might have slammed on the breaks (there was no other person on the road to worry about). Or maybe if they'd slammed into the deer they would have survived--though such accidents I think are often fatal since deer are big. 

But Logan's basically right about the consequences here. If it came out that Kendall was driving and they went into a lake and then he walked away and went back to the party and that he had a tone of drugs in his system at the time? It would define him for life. And he probably wouldn't have even the kind of chance Ted Kennedy did to repair his image at all.

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1 hour ago, cardigirl said:

This was a great episode and Jeremy Strong really knocked it out of the park. They all do, every week, but he was beyond great this week, as he revisited the horror of that night and the events that led up to the young man's death.

Yes. In the blink of an eye he went from looking kind of happy because he was going to the zoo with Naomi back to the dead-eyed, zombie the moment Logan mentioned he should go visit the family with him. The actor seemed to visibly shrink about 2 sizes in seconds. Just phenomenal physical emoting that he does.

1 hour ago, cardigirl said:

I have a question for others who watch this show and comment here.  Reviewers all seem to adore Shiv, either because of her hair, her clothes, or because they all think she is as smart as she thinks she is, but I was happy to find her out in the cold after her attempt to force Logan to name her publicly, her dinosaur-gate issues, and her too sincere "memo."  

I'm with you. I liked Shiv better last season when she was on the outs. This season, since episode one when Logan offered her the job, she's gotten an enormous head and has let fly with almost unrivaled levels of arrogance. Of course all the Roys display astounding amounts of arrogance all the time, but she's been especially over the top.

And while she is definitely not stupid, she's not nearly as smart about all things business as she thinks she is. It's a fair assessment to say that she could get there, but isn't there yet and she allows her arrogance to sabotage her own progress - i.e. burning all her bridges with the not-Bernie candidate instead of exiting more smoothly, announcing to the Pierces she's Logan's choice of heir, dissing Logan on the dais at Argestes, etc. 

I think the Shiv adoration is because, compared to Roman and Kendall, she seems to have it more together. And some of it has to do with the fact that she's consistently dismissed by everyone as a potential choice for Logan - including by her husband - so there's an element of rooting for the underdog. And some is because she's a super-sharp dresser.

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20 minutes ago, Pop Tart said:

I think the Shiv adoration is because, compared to Roman and Kendall, she seems to have it more together. And some of it has to do with the fact that she's consistently dismissed by everyone as a potential choice for Logan - including by her husband - so there's an element of rooting for the underdog. And some is because she's a super-sharp dresser.

But she's definitely mistreating her hubby, who clearly wants a full marriage and not this open-on-her-end-only arrangement they seem to have. Not that he's perfect either, but she uses him and then tries to act like she's not using him. 

I don't think she's more together than her brothers, even though she's not asking someone to call her abusive names while she gets off in the bathroom, and she's not on drugs (yet) but she's missing a piece of something, kindness.  Don't know, the character has bugged me all season.  I should be all "woman power" for her, and I am not.  

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1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't think he's gaslighting him. Frightening him, definitely, but he's not messing with Kendall's own memory or perception of events. That's why it's so easy--he's telling Kendall what he already knows or at least believes, since he can't really know what would happen. Logan is pretty accurate in describing the public consequences Kendall is afraid to face.

The kid's impulse to grab the wheel was fatally wrong, but Kendall knows he himself was stoned and not even looking at the road and didn't see the deer ahead of him. If he had, and if he'd been sober and maybe a better driver too, he might have slammed on the breaks (there was no other person on the road to worry about). Or maybe if they'd slammed into the deer they would have survived--though such accidents I think are often fatal since deer are big. 

But Logan's basically right about the consequences here. If it came out that Kendall was driving and they went into a lake and then he walked away and went back to the party and that he had a tone of drugs in his system at the time? It would define him for life. And he probably wouldn't have even the kind of chance Ted Kennedy did to repair his image at all.

My recollection is that Logan basically spelled out a narrative of how he'd be viewed for this incident, suggested that's all that he'd be known for.

So for Kendall who has career aspirations, it would ruin his future.

But of course he was also torn up about the tragedy too.  It's not to suggest that all he was concerned was his professional future.

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Logan really does hit just about every single sign of an abuser, doesent he? Right after he smacked Roman, he first starts blaming the other kids, then later downplays what he did ("I didnt mean to hit you, if I knew you were there I wouldn't have" and starts the "you know I am not THAT person" dance, then starts being way nicer to Roman than usual, laughing at his jokes a bit too loudly, calling him son, etc. Combined with what we saw last week, it paints a rather bleak picture of the Roy kids upbringing. 

They certainly didnt seem to get more warmth and affection from their mom, who seems rather icy and uncaring, and is more interested in using her kids as pawns against Logan, a fact that they are all painfully aware of. Kendall so badly wanted to tell his mom everything, maybe get a hug, and she just blew him off. 

Kendall is a deeply flawed man, but it breaks my heart to see him eaten alive internally like this, drowning in his guilt and hiding behind being his dads lackey. It was especially sad considering Logan dragged him to meet the poor family of the dead waiter just because he knew it would hurt him all because he dared to comment on Logan's relationship with Rhea. 

Shiv might be a mess of insecurity and cold heartheartedness, but she looks great this season. Every outfit has been on point!

2 hours ago, cardigirl said:

I still think Greg might end up on the "Iron Throne" but at this point, would love to see Roman take it all.  

Greg (oh my apologizes, Gregory) is certainly more qualified to run the company than the person who ended up on the Iron Throne was to take over Westeros 😉 

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1 hour ago, cardigirl said:

I don't think she's more together than her brothers, even though she's not asking someone to call her abusive names while she gets off in the bathroom, and she's not on drugs (yet) but she's missing a piece of something, kindness.  Don't know, the character has bugged me all season.  I should be all "woman power" for her, and I am not.  

Oh I don't think she's more together than her brothers - clearly something is broken in her too. She just seems to be more together because she doesn't have the obvious, in-your-face crutches that Kendall and Roman use. Kendall is a known drug addict to pretty much everyone and Roman uses his "rock star" persona to keep people at a distance. 

I just think, in comparison, that Shiv gives the appearance of being more competent and able then her siblings. 

I'm also agreeing that I'm not liking her much either and I too am also usually about "woman power". For me it's that she's gone from zero to sixty in terms of letting the power plays go to her head. 

Funny thing, while Rhea is turning into a super-schemer, she is still the female I'm currently rooting for (though I use the term rooting loosely) of all the women. She at least is coming across as competent in her efforts. Yes she got fired by Nan Pierce but at this point I'm not sure she didn't plan that in some way given how "in" she seems to be with Logan. 

That's not to say she's who I really want to "win" it all, but she is more interesting to me. I'm actually liking the thought of Shiv and Kendall getting together with Marcia in response to Rhea. The siblings are always at their best when they're supporting each other, so I'm here for that.

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Of all the cold hearted shenanigans I’ve seen on this show, and there’s been A LOT to choose from, Kendall’s Mom blowing him off wins the prize as the most cold hearted shit I’ve ever witnessed. I mean it was a master class in avoidance, the kid looked distraught and you could tell she just didn't want to be bothered. No wonder these Roy kids are soooo messed up, both parents are awful. This show is just great, I wish it got more buzz. 

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10 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Yes, screw prison: 

I mean, there's a reason we sentence people to prison, and not to three years of "feeling bad while enjoying your usual lifestyle."

And this folks is why I just can’t quit you. Best. Quote. Of. The. Day. Lol 

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1 hour ago, sadie said:

Of all the cold hearted shenanigans I’ve seen on this show, and there’s been A LOT to choose from, Kendall’s Mom blowing him off wins the prize as the most cold hearted shit I’ve ever witnessed. I mean it was a master class in avoidance, the kid looked distraught and you could tell she just didn't want to be bothered. No wonder these Roy kids are soooo messed up, both parents are awful. This show is just great, I wish it got more buzz. 

Caroline was entertaining during the wedding episode  (was it the season 1 finale?) with her cheeky comments.

But you see why the kids all went to America or stayed there rather than go with her to England.  In fact she probably let Roman have custody or when they grew up, they went to live in the US and be near their father.

Their anorexic English mum not only withheld nutritious and delicious food from them, but any kind of motherly affection.

Oh and she should be loaded, even if Logan screwed her in the divorce.  Why is she cooking for her adult children instead of having a cook prepare something more palatable than pigeons with buckshot and feathers?

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Brits are ..different about things like that. She might have put all of her cash into repairing the old mansion and she was cooking herself to ‘prove’ how in need she is to her wealthy children.

I am wondering if Rhea is working for Sandy/Stewy and screwing the Roys over royally. 

Kendall is a total disaster.

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12 hours ago, BeckyThatcher said:

Kendall slipping the money through the family’s letterbox was so painful to watch. The tension in that scene- will he knock on the door, will he- oh no- don’t put the money in the house! 

He is such a lost soul. All he can think to offer is money. Not to offer anything of himself. Not to face the situation, but to do has be has been taught, money is the answer. It’s no absolution and it weakens him once again. He repeatedly acts in ways that push him deeper into a hole reinforcing to himself that he is worthless and has nothing to offer as a person.

I was thinking about how little money that looked like.  Probably wouldn’t cover the death expenses. 

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Logan and Rhea came up with the plan to have Rhea convince Shiv to put her name in for the Pierce CEO just, right?  This was Logan’s way to take the Waystar CEO job from Shiv?

Why isn’t Logan offering it to Rhea?  

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3 minutes ago, Dminches said:

Logan and Rhea came up with the plan to have Rhea convince Shiv to put her name in for the Pierce CEO just, right?  This was Logan’s way to take the Waystar CEO job from Shiv?

Why isn’t Logan offering it to Rhea?  

If he offered it to Rhea he have to do the same thing to Rhea he did to Shiv. He wants to live forever and never step down. The second someone becomes his successor they become a threat.

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The way the all play each other is horrible. But decades after the divorce, Caroline and Logan are still using the kids to beat each other. Seriously, these children are in their 30s and she makes Logan choose his house in the Hamptons over the kids just to prove to the kids that Logan loves his real estate more. And the kids don’t even blink? 

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1 hour ago, Lemons said:

I was thinking about how little money that looked like.  Probably wouldn’t cover the death expenses. 

Probably the max that Kendall could get out of the ATM.

I was thinking that the taxi driver must have found the whole thing weird. And I'm assuming Caroline is pretty well known around town, so the driver probably even knows who Kendall is.

1 hour ago, BlackberryJam said:

Seriously, these children are in their 30s and she makes Logan choose his house in the Hamptons over the kids just to prove to the kids that Logan loves his real estate more. And the kids don’t even blink? 

"It's a good deal, right, Dad?" says Roman. Yikes.

I was actually really taken aback by Kendall wanting to reopen the divorce settlement in the first place. I mean really, whatever acrimonous mess that divorce had to have been is something you want to relive? Okay-dokey.

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

If he offered it to Rhea he have to do the same thing to Rhea he did to Shiv. He wants to live forever and never step down. The second someone becomes his successor they become a threat.

Couldn't agree more.

3 hours ago, scrb said:

Why is she cooking for her adult children instead of having a cook prepare something more palatable than pigeons with buckshot and feathers?

I thought she said that she had had the pigeon cooked, not that she'd cooked it herself? I got the picture that she'd had the cook or housekeeper or whoever make the dinner and then just served it herself once the servant(s) went home for the night. It did look like she didn't have live-in help, though.

It's probably ruinously expensive to keep up an old manor like that, and she probably imagines it as a "rustic" country home anyhow.

On 9/22/2019 at 10:48 PM, Aja said:

Boy, Mum is a piece of work too. Kendall wanted to confess to her and she just bailed on him.

To be fair, Kendall bailed on dinner with her, and that was after he'd spent the whole day in HER town following his father around like a duckling. And that was on a mission to "woo" her at his father's behest to save his father's company. And she apparently hates Logan, so I imagine in her mind all that is a betrayal. Who knows what the relationship is like between those two in particular. In a family like that, it seems like the guy who spends his entire adult life trying to be his father's "#1 boy" is not going to have a great relationship with his mother, to be honest.

Caroline sure was icy, though. I enjoyed it but the fact that it felt like a relief when the Roys were back on Logan's plane and away from her house is just mind-blowing. Who would have thought that Logan would be the warm, involved, loving parent out of the two hahahaha

6 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Logan really does hit just about every single sign of an abuser, doesent he? Right after he smacked Roman, he first starts blaming the other kids, then later downplays what he did ("I didnt mean to hit you, if I knew you were there I wouldn't have" and starts the "you know I am not THAT person" dance, then starts being way nicer to Roman than usual, laughing at his jokes a bit too loudly, calling him son, etc.

Ugh, it was so uncomfortable to watch that scene between Logan and Roman in the car. Especially because Roman didn't even seem pissed. He was just trying to get through the moment.

6 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Kendall is a deeply flawed man, but it breaks my heart to see him eaten alive internally like this, drowning in his guilt and hiding behind being his dads lackey. It was especially sad considering Logan dragged him to meet the poor family of the dead waiter just because he knew it would hurt him all because he dared to comment on Logan's relationship with Rhea. 

Yeah, Logan was basically trying to discipline Kendall because he saw his comments about Rhea as overstepping. Which they sort of were, to be honest.

Someone commented elsewhere that they thought Kendall was snarking on Logan and basically trying to hurt him by talking about him making a fool of himself by hooking up with Rhea, but I think that Kendall actually saw himself as being protective of Logan. Maybe he was feeling empowered from standing up to Logan to protect Roman at the conference, or maybe he was just overwhelmed by his happiness with Naomi, who knows, but it was honestly kind of rude.

Kendall's gotten good at being a yes-man and when he tried to diverge from that this episode, his parents were REALLY not having it!

9 hours ago, cardigirl said:

I have a question for others who watch this show and comment here.  Reviewers all seem to adore Shiv, either because of her hair, her clothes, or because they all think she is as smart as she thinks she is, but I was happy to find her out in the cold after her attempt to force Logan to name her publicly, her dinosaur-gate issues, and her too sincere "memo."  

Am I missing something?  I mean, I love all the characters, because of how well they are written and acted, but I'm definitely not rooting for her particularly. 

No, I don't particularly like Shiv. She's smug, clueless, and is always blurting things out or barging right in like she owns the place. I don't dislike her, and her outfits have been really on point, but I'm not rooting for her or even that interested in her.

And I would have expected to be, because she's one of the few women in the main cast, but *shrug*

I actually think it's good writing, though. She's a well-written character. Too real to like, though.

On 9/23/2019 at 12:17 AM, RealReality said:

Logan may be seeing Kendall getting more independent and strong.  Yelling at Logan in the last episode, pursuing a relationship with Naomi, questioning Logan about Rhea.  Kendall was right back to "my dad's plan was better" during the car ride home. 

During that car ride, when Kendall was trying to parrot back some line about it being nice to show Rhea the village, and Logan was like, "do we have a problem?!" and Kendall practically pissed himself and was like, "what? no! no!"...wow.

On the one hand, I feel bad for Kendall because I don't really think that the waiter's death was his fault (to me, it seemed like a tragic accident more than anything) and seeing him walk around like a shell of a person is just so depressing. On the other hand, it's like, shit or get off the pot. If you think you should accept responsibility, than walk into the police station and do that.

That said, I think Kendall is maybe legitimately unstable. He's had a lot of issues with drugs and it's already cost him his family. Now he's wondering around clearly unwell, literally shitting the bed here and there. So maybe there's more going on than just the drugs and the guilt and the trauma and he's not actually capable of being more independent.

Edited by rue721
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2 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I was actually really taken aback by Kendall wanting to reopen the divorce settlement in the first place. I mean really, whatever acrimonous mess that divorce had to have been is something you want to relive? Okay-dokey.

Kendall offered the reopening of the divorce settlement as a way for Logan to have a front when he gives money to Caroline. The goal was to assure her vote in the proxy battle but he can’t actually offer her money for her vote, so Kendall suggested using the divorce settlement as cover for Logan giving her money.

And Logan got his money’s worth as once Caroline agreed to the deal she even said she’d talk to Jack (the other shareholder who had 4%) and bring him on board as well.

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4 minutes ago, Pop Tart said:

Kendall offered the reopening of the divorce settlement as a way for Logan to have a front when he gives money to Caroline. The goal was to assure her vote in the proxy battle but he can’t actually offer her money for her vote, so Kendall suggested using the divorce settlement as cover for Logan giving her money.

And Logan got his money’s worth as once Caroline agreed to the deal she even said she’d talk to Jack (the other shareholder who had 4%) and bring him on board as well.

I get that, but I still find it weird that he'd suggest reopening his own parents' divorce. From a purely practical perspective, it makes sense, but from an emotional perspective, it's messed up.

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9 hours ago, Pop Tart said:

Oh I don't think she's more together than her brothers - clearly something is broken in her too. She just seems to be more together because she doesn't have the obvious, in-your-face crutches that Kendall and Roman use. Kendall is a known drug addict to pretty much everyone and Roman uses his "rock star" persona to keep people at a distance. 

I just think, in comparison, that Shiv gives the appearance of being more competent and able then her siblings.

I agree. At a glance, Shiv seems to be a good choice to replace Logan. Her appearance is polished. She is confident. She is recently married so that also seems stable compared to Roman and Kendall. (We know her marriage is unhealthy but someone like Nan would not.) However, up close she is just as much of a wreck as her brothers. She knows nothing about the business but thinks she can take over. She seems to always make the wrong choice when trying to please Logan. She treats Tom so badly we sometimes feel sorry for him, and Tom is a JERK. Also, I don’t know what the deal is with her dogs, but they always seem to be in those pens at home.

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