S03.E12: Sacrifice

[Lemons]

11 hours ago, rubinia said:

I thought she just sort of didn't do anything...?

June saw the drugs on the table and knew she took an overdose. She went to run for help but decided it was better for her if Eleanor died.  Eleanor didn’t understand the need for secrecy.   She might have been saved, they still had emergency services or they could have tried to get her to throw up.  Instead June chose to let her die. 

[Lemons]

2 hours ago, jrbarry said:

2. I think we all have too fond of thoughts about Eleanor Lawrence.  Certainly she was remorseful for what her part was in creating the living Hell that is Gilead. But, she is culpable just like Serena and the other wives who played along.  Committing suicide was her sacrifice to at least try to help a few kids escape Gilead.  I don't blame June for "letting her go." 

I don’t think eleanor has the same culpability as the other wives.  She and Lawrence never did those monthly rape ceremonies. I can see Lawrence shielding Eleanor from all the hateful parts of the new world.  She didn’t get out much and her child like innocence brought on by mental illness surely kept her unaware of a lot.

June is alive because inexplicably people give her all kinds of breaks. Apparently men are drawn to her sour face, yeah right.   Eleanor did a lot for June and helped protect June and June repays her by letting her die.  I hate June and don’t care if she ever sees her kids again. 

[BrindaWalsh]

Holly/Nicole is not Baby M. Why does Serena, who was her "mother" for all of 2 months max, get to see her?  She has no biological claim to that child.  Her husband has no biological claim to that child, and Serena knows that.  Granted neither do Moira or Luke, but Luke is the legal husband of the child's mother.  He has more right to her than the rapist and his accomplice.

Other than that I was bored.  I'm not drawn to Eleanor, I didn't find her that interesting.  

When I saw June with that gun in the beginning it hit me that Commander Lawrence didn't give it to her to defend herself.  He gave it to her to kill herself.  Right?

[AnswersWanted]

6 hours ago, mamadrama said:

Nah, I don't buy it.

In a show with good writing, that's the game he'd be playing. 

In THIS show I'd bet money on a future romance and redemption arc.

Same here. 

This show has become so predictably terrible I find it so natural now to assume the very worse will happen because 99% of the time it does. 

30 minutes ago, Souris said:

Both those reasons are why I thought it was stupid of June to just let her die. They could have all kept a close eye on Eleanor until the plan finished. As apt as Eleanor was to spill the beans, she was just one variable, one who could be controlled if they put in the effort. Her death could have created other variables, like Lawrence backing out of the plan or June being sent to another house immediately, which June couldn’t control. Just stupid.

While Eleanor obviously couldn’t be taken to a hospital, I thought they could have possibly forced an emetic down her to get her to vomit up whatever drugs were still in her stomach, which could maybe have been enough to save her. (And where the hell did she get enough pills to OD on???)

This show wants to keep the sole focus of the story on June because it’s “her story”, but I continually fail to see why they think it’s such a good idea to make her out to be such an asshole capable of monstrous decisions that don’t even make sense in the long run.

Many of you guys have listed all the ways June’s decision could have backfired, and honestly common sense would have had her save Eleanor because she was truly the only tie to Lawrence’s “good side”that June had. 

Who the hell  would allow their priceless ace in the hole to die when there was definitely other options at hand. 

June is always making the short term choice that should destroy her plans but because the show makes her so invincible and impervious to any and all consequences she will still succeed. 

To me it’s truly one of the worst qualities they have given the character.

Offred operated as someone who, at any second, could be caught, captured, harmed, betrayed, found out about, etc. 

Offred never had an invisible suit of plot protection that could deflect every single bit of potential risk in her story. It was literally the exact opposite, from start to finish.

June, however, has that in spades, and for me it has removed any and all suspense and purpose from the story. 

Now we never have any need to worry whether June will survive or get away with anything anymore, this chick is fucking bullet proof, she has no weak points, she is untouchable. 

Regardless of what should happen or would happen in any realistic story based on a mere human being, she will triumph. 

She has become the final BOSS at the end of a video game who has no apparent weakness or flaw to be exploited to get the win. 

Gilead is June’s game and she is always playing to win no matter what because she always will, no matter what. 

5 minutes ago, BrindaWalsh said:

When I saw June with that gun in the beginning it hit me that Commander Lawrence didn't give it to her to defend herself.  He gave it to her to kill herself.  Right?

Most likely, but of course the badass that is now BOSS June was going to try and play Rambo Jane in some final “shoot ‘em up bang bang” standoff. 

She has to be one of the most utterly exhausting characters I have ever come across on television before in my life. 

[kieyra]

8 hours ago, alexvillage said:

OMG! I thought you guys were being sarcastic but was that an actual line in the sow? Fuck this crap! This level of writing would get a D in a junior high essay.

I was actually coming back here to ask about Emily. How many episodes since she was last seen? Three? How can they simply let the story fade like this? Never mind, I don't expect anything of value from them but what the fuck?

Based on comments lately about EM’s power behind the scenes, I wonder if she intentionally minimized Emily’s role this season because 1) Fans loved Emily more than June, 2) Alexis Bledel shocked everyone by being the superior actress and scooping up her own awards.

Never mind that at this point I wish we would have had Alexis OR Samira in the lead role. You know, ideally with better writing.

Edited August 8, 2019 by kieyra

[AgentRXS]

Oh look! Moira had her obligatory 5 minutes of screentime this week! Samira is so much better than this show. I'm so disappointed in how underutilized she is.

June's smugness is absolutely unbearable. I am glad the season is ending as my nerves are shot from watching her. Literally every other character is more interesting but I'm being forced to watch Elisabeth Moss contort her face in ugly closeups every week. I really wish that their was a huge overhaul behind the scenes before Season 4. What a waste of an excellent premise.

[mamadrama]

4 hours ago, jrbarry said:

1.  Just a pet peeve of mine, but this series is about one person, June.  It is The Handmaid's Tale.  It is June's story and not all the ancillary characters on the show.  June's story is being played out in Gilead and not in Canada.  The fans who want some kind of wider story with lots of "fill-in-the-blanks" about history, what's happening everywhere outside the Boston area of Gilead, what led to the founding of Gilead or more of what's happening in Canada because of the super acting job of a minor character, are missing the point of what the story is.  It is one person's story, June's.

2. I think we all have too fond of thoughts about Eleanor Lawrence.  Certainly she was remorseful for what her part was in creating the living Hell that is Gilead. But, she is culpable just like Serena and the other wives who played along.  Committing suicide was her sacrifice to at least try to help a few kids escape Gilead.  I don't blame June for "letting her go." 

3. I think the show is excellent and complaints about it being poorly written are not on target.

Except this story is NOT just the handmaid's tale. That was the book-a GOOD book, but a completely different story. (Literally a different story. The majority of the things that have happened after S1 were never in the book...) This is a television show that has also shown Emily's tale, Moira's tale, and even a bit of Aunt Lydia's tale. In this television show, stories happen outside of June.

I see no real comparison between Eleanor and Serena...

Serena was actively involved in a plan to murder Congress and overthrow the US govt. Serena was instrumental in implementing a rule that made it illegal for a woman to read. Serena held down women once a month while her husband raped them. Serena had her husband literally attack a pregnant woman. Serena stole a baby that did not belong to her. 

Eleanor was a mentally ill woman with no known history in the planning of Gilead. She appeared to dislike the rules, tried to kill her husband after the ONLY ceremony he "participated" in, and most likely would've been hung on the wall had her feelings about the rules or the true extent of her mental illness been revealed.

[Armchair Critic]

20 hours ago, Ariam said:

I really don’t want to ever see Elizabeth Moss anywhere again

I've been a big fan of Mad Men and she rubbed me the wrong way on that show too, we were supposed to root for her character Peggy but the way Elizabeth Moss played her she was irritating. I've always wondered what another actress could have done with that part.

[scrb]

Let me get this straight, in the wake of Winslow’s disappearance and Waterford’s capture, Spyros is one of the top commanders left?

Gilead is fucked!

I thought when June had the gun drawn, Nick was going to walk through that door, because we know June isn’t getting killed off any time soon.

Also thought after she checked on the door, she was going to smother Eleanor with a pillow or something.

Unless next season is the final one, I can’t imagine June will get out with Hanna and all those other kids.  There won’t be much reason to show Gilead any more if June got out and the Waterfords are never released to go back.

Apparently this was a rogue trip so the border much be pretty porous.  How would they have closed the border anyways?  And why would it matter if they’re flying out on a plane?

[Helena Dax]

What if "saving" Eleanor was the worst choice? Take her to a hospital and you would have to explain where those pills are coming from, which would expose the Marthas, and I'm pretty sure Gilead has a ghastly punishment for those who try to take their own life.

[AllyB]

4 hours ago, AnswersWanted said:

This show has become so predictably terrible I find it so natural now to assume the very worse will happen because 99% of the time it does. 

I'm just wondering if they are going for a full Breaking Bad homage with June allowing someone to die. If even one of the 52 kids carries a teddy bear onto the plane I'll be expecting to next see it floating charred and one eyed in a pool.

[SuzieSioux]

15 hours ago, Empress1 said:

Also, shut up, Spy Guy. "That's uncalled for." Aw, did we hurt the war criminal's feelings? Fuck that.

I. Was. furious when he spoke to Moira like that. He also told her that was "uncalled for" directly after she spoke of the exact actions Serena had taken that made her a rapist, and her responsibilty for the nightmarish country Gilead had become. I want to believe he's playing the long game, but his aggression towards Moira was too real or something. Like, if they want us to think he's playing Serena, he needed to deliver lines like that in another way. Or maybe just give him different lines. So as far as I'm concerned Spy Guy can go fuck himself.

Edited August 8, 2019 by SuzieSioux

[alexvillage]

11 hours ago, jrbarry said:

1.  Just a pet peeve of mine, but this series is about one person, June.  It is The Handmaid's Tale.  It is June's story and not all the ancillary characters on the show.  June's story is being played out in Gilead and not in Canada.  The fans who want some kind of wider story with lots of "fill-in-the-blanks" about history, what's happening everywhere outside the Boston area of Gilead, what led to the founding of Gilead or more of what's happening in Canada because of the super acting job of a minor character, are missing the point of what the story is.  It is one person's story, June's.

The show BECAME about one handmaid because the writers are bad at what they do. I could have continued to watch the show if this story about this one handmaid hadn't completely destroyed the original idea of the book and gone in all directions - all directions that a circle allows one to go. Plus all the other things we have already debated here, plot armors, etc. 

Yes, we complain, but we are not missing the point. WE WANT THE FUCKING POINT TO BE MADE. 

If the story is about one person, June,  it is no longer about a handmaid in an authoritarian dystopian religious place called Gilead. A handmaid in that place would not be able to do or say what this June does and says.

15 hours ago, 80sBaby said:

And once again for the showrunners in the back...STOP THE ZOOM IN/CLOSEUPS. The eyes staring at the end literally made me roll my eyes and lmao at the same time!!! It's not some powerful shot, it's become an annoying joke.

It just occurred to me that one of them comes here, reads our snark, gets "hurt" and then goes back and wipes more close ups on purpose, to "hit back" at us. Poor babies. I can see that happening, based on the material they present to the viewers and dare to call professional writing.

Edited August 8, 2019 by alexvillage
To make sense of things I typed too fast

[violet and green]

So just how many more extreme closeups of EM's unfortunate glaucous eyes will it be possible to cram in before this season ends? How many more can we the viewer take, until our TVs explode in protest? I mean, she does do a good job of exposing the whites in different ways, but it's not what I call acting.  I cannot believe how completely this once excellent show has lost its sense of self and unity. We're supposed to hate June now, aren't we? Surely? But then we get told she's a BOSS. A boss. I am hanging in, just for Nick. This season should have been three episodes long, maybe four - but they didn't have quite the plot to cover three or four, even so.

[BrindaWalsh]

Season 1 Aunt Lydia never would have given permission for her handmaid to go stand with the widowed husband.  She is to serve as a vessel, and then move on, that is it.  The idea that these handmaids are part of a family unit with relationships with the commanders and their wives that would afford such a closeness is bizarre and never the intention in the book, if memory serves.  Even if Lawrence is the "exception",  Lydia doesn't know that and would have forced her into her handmaid lineup at such an emotionally intimate request.  

Do the directors know that they do a zoom-in closeup at the end of nearly EVERY single episode?  They have forever killed the impact of that shot.  I mean, all I thought last night was that it looked like Moss needs a deep pore facial cleanser.  Somehow I don't think that's what they were going for.  

So.  What's the plan for saving these kids?  Get them on a bus and then just drive over the border?  A plane?  How does this work exactly?  What do they say at the checkpoints, that they are going on a field trip to the Museum of Natural History?  Once they are over, are Lawrence and June going back in for round 2?   

I know people are frustrated that Luke just hauled off and punched Fred, when he could have talked.  But honestly, talk about what?  In what world should Luke ever trust anything that Fred had to say?  Luke punching Fred and Moira's verbal attack on Serena joy were the only 2 satisfying parts of this episode.

[lucindabelle]

I don’t know that Eleanor’s suicide was to save others- maybe in part- but I think it came directly out of her realization that she and Joseph could never leave gilead behind. 

I too was appalled by June’s decision- I get the risk but Eleanor was Joseph’s main reason for going along with the plan. She turned out right that he would do it for her memory.

i think the sideye look was really just how he looked with the glasses on. Without them it was just a look that could be interpreted many ways. 

Not as good an episode as last week.

[chickenella]

On 8/7/2019 at 1:09 AM, Brn2bwild said:

June is stone-cold.  I can understand why she did it, but damn.  I think Lawrence suspects that if she didn't poison Eleanor, she did check on her and see she was in distress.  June should have kept her goddamn mouth shut.  

Did June poison Eleanor? I figured Eleanor just had some sleeping pills or something and did it herself. Anyone know what those pills were? After she said earlier that it's too late to start over or something along that idea I knew she had given up.

I've also wondered if they took Eleanor to a hospital, what would the doctors think about her mental state? In Gilead don't they "dispose" of people that are less than perfect? Wouldn't bringing her in after a suicide attempt expose the elephant in the room? Perhaps they make exceptions for Commanders' wives.

And really, I haven't complained about the close ups of June all season, but this last batch was too much. I've seen enough of her face and it's just "filler" now, when they could have been progressing the story further instead of all this unnecessary face porn.

I have to add that I thought the black handmaid's costume was stunning. The black veils on the wives, too.

[Cornhusker12]

Ya know, I've seen several comments around the internet actually complimenting the fact that June letting Eleanor die was a "Walter White moment," and asking why people loved when THAT main character got dark but June gets criticized. Even removing the quality of writing in the two shows, I think the answer to that is really simple: Walter White's descent to becoming a dark freakish anti-hero was the entire point of the show. Watching his moral decay and how it affected him and those around him was fascinating because we knew that was the trajectory of the show, and when he horrified us we were supposed to be horrified, and when he slightly regained his humanity at times or even just took out bad guys who were worse than him the context of the show kept it all on the same consistent track and made it clear how we were supposed to view his opposing movements upward in the drug world and downward in the humanity world. And yes, he was shown to have the capacity to make some crazy badass moves as he moved up and down those scales.

In comparison, The Handmaid's Tale is probably the show that has the LEAST reason to have its protagonist be morally compromised or slowly turning into an anti-hero before our eyes. She is up against one of the most evil societies we've ever seen! She could be Coach Taylor in FNL levels of goodness and there would still be PLENTY of darkness and ambiguity to go around in the show and we'd be rooting like hell for her to persevere.

June was presented as a normal person in a terrifying and awful world. A person like that should of course be given leniency when they are forced into horrible situations that we can't comprehend when going up against their oppressors. But to turn her into someone who develops this sour personality against fellow members of the bottom-class to the point where she bullies one of them so mercilessly that she goes nuts and winds up dead, flaunts her relatively higher untouchable status by constantly and publicly doing things that would get any single other handmaid maimed or killed, and then allows a mentally ill woman to die on her watch, it doesn't show her to be some badass "Boss" freedom fighter, it shows her to just kind of be someone who is yes, a victim of a horrific world, but also weirdly full of herself and inconsiderate to people she's supposedly leading and wanting to fight for.

Anyway, I've said before that the character of June should be one of the easiest characters to root for in the history of TV. Every single thing in the society of Gilead is stacked up against her to monstrous proportions. And yet............

Edited August 8, 2019 by huskerj12

[kieyra]

18 minutes ago, huskerj12 said:

Ya know, I've seen several comments around the internet actually complimenting the fact that June letting Eleanor die was a "Walter White moment," and asking why people loved when THAT main character got dark but June gets criticized.

I saw those comments and rolled my eyes. Apples and oranges. 

I think the conversation should be: "Why did this show rip off an iconic moment from Breaking Bad instead of creating its own iconic moments?"

(I've seen so many reactions to the effect of "Did anyone else get a Breaking Bad flashback?". Yes, because Breaking Bad literally had its character do the exact same thing, only it made a lot more sense in that situation, both in terms of the protagonist's stakes in the death and showcasing the protagonist's character arc.)

Edited August 8, 2019 by kieyra

[Ms Lark]

Quote

“Just because you got some new clothes doesn’t make you any different. You are still the same woman who held my friend down so your husband could rape her. And he raped me, too, at the whorehouse. Treated me like shit like I was worthless. I am who I am and I have sinned plenty, but you? You are the gender traitor."

Moira for the win. Because it can't be said enough.

[mamadrama]

As a chronic television watcher, I'm angry and bored by how this season undolded. As an author, I take the bad writing personally. The theories and fan fiction we come up with on here are much better than the actual show material.

[Baltimore Betty]

3 hours ago, BrindaWalsh said:

Moira's verbal attack on Serena joy

One of our posters wrote it out word for word and I litterally teared up...Luke could have had that moment.  Luke also could have had a better moment than hauling off and punching Fred, there could have been a "I've got a particular set of skills" moment too.  I feel like Luke will not be allowed to get any where close to Fred ever again, lost opportunity to give depth to Luke and his pain.

[DangerousMinds]

“Bad writing” or not, people are still clearly watching, so the show is doing something right.

[kieyra]

48 minutes ago, DangerousMinds said:

“Bad writing” or not, people are still clearly watching, so the show is doing something right.

The show gained a tremendous amount of momentum in its first season due to the subject matter and cinematography/direction. A lot of people will just keep watching till the end at that point (see: TWD, GoT, Bull, etc) even if the quality of writing/plotting takes a huge nosedive.

[Miles]

Fuck me. Of course they ennded with a closeup of June glaring directly into the camera.

And for the first 30 minutes, this wasn't even a bad episode. But then... June lets Mrs. Lawrence die. I know she's a liability, but that could have backfired massively and in any sane world, it would have. Commander Lawrence's main reason for wanting out was his wife. I mean since the waterfords and their suggar daddy are gone, he's back on top. Why would he still help June and her hairbrain schemes now? He may not particularly like Gilead, but he's way better off inside it than outside.

[Umbelina]

Note, the only thing under these spoiler tags are book spoilers.

I didn't care for last season at all.  I felt they were spinning their wheels, and only providing "emmy episodes" for all of their cast members, there was no apparent thru-line, the show didn't seem to be going anywhere, specifically, it wasn't even getting close to things mentioned in the

Spoiler

epilogue.

The past four episodes though have made things come together for me.  I get what they are doing now, and while it's not always elegantly done?  I'm really enjoying it.  The over-reliance on close ups of the cast aside?  Things are finally happening, and SOME of what happened before is finally making sense.

June has been completely broken down now, and has moved completely beyond her own concerns and forward into "not taking this anymore."  She knows she's risking her life, but her life is shit, so why be concerned with that.  She's completely focused and determined to do something to change things.  Others have been pushed beyond their limits as well, the suicide bomber, that Martha off to join the fighters, not just escape Gilead herself.  Emily stabbing Aunt Lydia, Moira's two escapes, beating up that aunt and then killing that Commander to escape.  June had to let Eleanor die, or the whole plan was likely over, she's full on antihero now.  If she hadn't, not only would the 52 kids be stuck there, all of their Martha's would be hung.

June has joined their ranks, and over 3 seasons finally worked her way into the Martha resistance network, and along the way she's learned things.  The black market at Jezebels, the escape routes possible, the variety of people involved, not one of them knowing the next step on the underground railroad that exists, for safety.  June saw several steps of that.  She's learned.

What June has done, and what someone finally had to do is bump the whole thing up a notch.  Logically this WOULD happen.  Instead of getting one person out, why not try to rescue a bunch all at once.  If you are going to do that, why not rescue the most vulnerable, the kids?  Rescuing the kids also appeals to many more people, so more "allies."

This all fits in with the

Spoiler

epilogue of the book,

so, no, they haven't left the book "behind."  They are moving ON to the stuff I've wanted to know about for decades now.  Resistance, and chipping away at the power structure of Gilead.  June had a lot of time to think and to process while on her knees in Natalie's death room.  She moved beyond selfish concerns of merely rescuing Hannah, to doing something more.  Her breakthrough moment of what to do came when those little girls came into the hospital for their pelvic exams, their only use or purpose in Gilead?  To have babies.  I believe "save more than just myself and Hannah" was solidified in those moments.

Not only do I not find that unbelievable, I think it was inevitable, it would have happened in the Gilead Atwood described, and

Spoiler

she did describe the underground railroad,

in broad strokes, and also hinted that "June"

Spoiler

WAS involved with the resistance.

In addition, we have Serena, one finger gone, finally using her head again, and realizing that Fred and Winslow were playing her.  She reached her limit as well, and she sets up that sniveling monster Fred.

I don't think the USA is stupid, I do think they are playing/wooing both Fred and Serena because both are incredibly useful to them.  Serena is famous, probably the most famous woman in Gilead, and she helped START this whole damn mess with her books and her speeches.  I think they are examining ways (and probably have been since way back when Spy Guy approached her) of USING her to help bring it down.  I can easily see several ways they might do that.

Fred?  I'm not sure why the "kid gloves" with him yet, possibly simply appealing to his vanity first?  Possibly to keep Serena in their pocket?  Obviously they can force that weasel to spill his guts, but this "courteous" way is also a tried and true technique.  They can always go hard nosed later.

Meanwhile, Gilead will be shaken to it's core if those kids get out.   They think Fred and Serena defected or "were captured" and they already think the same of Winslow.  Those are two big hits!  Imagine those hits followed by losing 52 of their most precious possessions, the kids!  Imagine the world press on this!

I said earlier this season that the writers were very carefully "setting the table" and I hope it would pay off.

Well, the meal is being served, and it's pretty glorious, I'm enjoying it.

ETA

If Lawrence escapes the hell he helped create, bringing all those kids with him?  I'm hoping that means Fred has no more irreplaceable value to the USA/World, and he gets thrown into a regular cell.  Or set up as a traitor to Gilead and deported back since in Gilead, obviously Capital Punishment is a thing, while it's not in Canada.  Get him on tape spilling his guts, broadcast it, and dump him back there to be torn apart by handmaids.

Edited August 9, 2019 by Umbelina
added book spoiler tags and the ETA Lawrence not Winslow

[scrb]

1 hour ago, Baltimore Betty said:

Luke also could have had a better moment than hauling off and punching Fred, there could have been a "I've got a particular set of skills" moment too.  I feel like Luke will not be allowed to get any where close to Fred ever again, lost opportunity to give depth to Luke and his pain.

I'm fine with Luke just punching Fred rather than speechifying to him.

Probably more torture for Fred if he did the latter, though Fred could always sneer back at him as he was doing before Luke punched him.

But the visceral feeling of the punch is not unlike when Serena slapped him.

[Miles]

On 8/7/2019 at 7:06 AM, HeySandyStrange said:

Of course, the writers might sink to new lows and have Spy Guy fall madly in love with Serena and whisk her to Hawaii to live by the ocean with Nicole.

My money is on that one.

On 8/7/2019 at 7:50 AM, AnswersWanted said:

What is the show trying to say, that her testimony is a make or break factor to bring down Fred? That’s total bullshit after all we’ve seen and been told. Or has the show already forgotten about the letters, escaped Aunt, and massive protests filled with Gilead victims, again? 

I guess they now need information on Gilead, since they forgot all the information they had in season one and would have learned from refugees and defectors. You know basically the whole of Canada suffered collective brain damage betwween seasons...

On 8/7/2019 at 8:35 AM, AnswersWanted said:

They don’t need her to turn on him out of convenience by getting her to deal with them, she needs to sell him out to save her own skin, that was the whole point I was making. 

To be fair here. She brought them Fred and she probably nailed down a solid deal for doing so. Now, could America/Canada go back on the deal? Sure, but in international relations and the spy game all you have is your reputation. If you fuck over Serena now, nobody is going to deal with you ever again. Getting her would not be worth it to them. So they are working her from a different angle.

On 8/7/2019 at 9:00 AM, AnswersWanted said:

What minds need to be changed at this point? People either know exactly what a hell hole Gilead is by now or they don't care. It's been 5 years after all, there's no more secrets.

The minds in Gilead. Serena basically made that place with her work. If she now tells a different story, how this isn't gods will afterall, how the leadership of Gilead perverted her writing, bla bla bla, and they manage to distribute these writings in Gilead, she could legit start a counter-relvolution, or at least cause some turmoil the US can exploit. I don't think these writers will go there, it's way too clever for them, but it would be a good plan.

Edited August 8, 2019 by Miles

[chaifan]

15 hours ago, BrindaWalsh said:

Holly/Nicole is not Baby M. Why does Serena, who was her "mother" for all of 2 months max, get to see her?  She has no biological claim to that child.  Her husband has no biological claim to that child, and Serena knows that.  Granted neither do Moira or Luke, but Luke is the legal husband of the child's mother.  He has more right to her than the rapist and his accomplice.

While not directly stated, it was strongly implied that Serena made a deal with Truello to get Fred across the border, and part of the deal was that she got access to Nicole.  We don't know if this is a one time thing or she negotiated regular visits.  Moira's consternation at the security check indicated this was something they (she and Luke) didn't really want to do but had to, so it seems it was part of a deal.  Could they have said No?  Probably.  But if it meant arresting Waterford, why wouldn't they? 

I disagree with those that see Truello as flirting with Serena.  I don't think there's any romantic interest there.  He's treating her as a real, normal person.  She does have value as an asset, and it's his job to keep her a willing participant in this game.  The "that was uncalled for" I think was to put an end to Moira's comments, and to show he's got her back.  He's her handler, and he's handling her. 

I am surprised that they allowed Serena to fill Fred in that she set him up and that she is not "in custody" as he is.  I'd think Fred would be more willing to spill the beans if he felt Serena was in peril. 

I didn't expect a Moira-esque speech from Luke, but I expected him to be a bit better prepared on what to say to his wife's rapist.  I was also hoping that the binder he carried contained pictures of a few dozen babies that he's fathered since being in Canada through sperm donation.  Sort of a "This is how you rebuild the population - through incentivizing fertile men and women to have babies.  Not by killing off all the fertile guys and having infertile men rape fertile women on a monthly basis."  Seriously, if he, as well as every other fertile guy isn't making regular donations to sperm banks, that's just stupid.

Edited August 8, 2019 by chaifan

[Umbelina]

11 minutes ago, Miles said:

I guess they now need information on Gilead, since they forgot all the information they had in season one and would have learned from refugees and defectors. You know basically the whole of Canada suffered collective brain damage betwween seasons...

I agree with almost everything in your post except for this.

They do have refugees, but the refugees are former handmaids, Marthas, we did see one Guardian, basically the refugees they have are the former slaves of Gilead, and of course, the people who managed to escape while Gilead was taking over, before the coup or shortly after.

They've never had a Commander, and the show did set it up that "Gilead's power structure is a black box" to the world, that the "world" knows nothing about how Gilead works, where the power is, what their plans are (will they use nukes, do they plan to invade Canada, how many bombs are left?) etc.  

Fred is the FIRST person they've captured that knows a great deal about, as well as food supplies, what the "leaders" of Gilead want, will negotiate for, the money trails, the power hierarchy, all of that.

Edited August 8, 2019 by Umbelina
clarity

[Miles]

4 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

They've never had a Commander, and the show did set it up that "Gilead's power structure is a black box" to the world, that the "world" knows nothing about how Gilead works, where the power is, what their plans are (will they use nukes, do they plan to invade Canada, how many bombs are left?) etc.   

Other fucking countries knew about Gilead's fucking power structure. They had diplomats running around the fucking place all the time, plus that's the easiest fucking thing in the world to figure out. There is no country on this planet the five eyes and many other agencies don't know the power structure of. So why the fuck should this be different with Gilead.

The black box bullshit is something the writers pulled out of their fucking asses this season and it makes me fucking angry, because it's so increadibly dumb.

PS: They also had aunts defect. They know quite a lot.

Edited August 8, 2019 by Miles

[Umbelina]

I disagree.  

Gilead is not only a brand new society/government, they MURDERED or enslaved most of the people who might have given information out to the world, and they have restricted use of computers and other forms of communication to their trusted Commanders only.

What diplomats have been running around Gilead?  We saw the Swiss team, but they weren't allowed to roam free, they had very restricted access.

This is a closed society, and while the world knows some of the horrors from the escapees?  That has nothing to do with how the big wigs are organized or their plans.  The world is understandably hesitant to take on Gilead, since it has the largest stockpile of weapons, including nukes of any country in the world, since it's based on the USA.

They have no idea if Gilead's leadership plans to use those nukes.  It's something they obviously want to know.  Fred is the best chance they've ever had to find out that, and their weak spots.

[BodhiGurl]

11 hours ago, Helena Dax said:

What if "saving" Eleanor was the worst choice? Take her to a hospital and you would have to explain where those pills are coming from, which would expose the Marthas, and I'm pretty sure Gilead has a ghastly punishment for those who try to take their own life.

This is what I thought, it was almost merciful to let Eleanore die. I'm guessing had she survived, she would have been hung for trying to kill herself or sent to the colonies to die a slow, miserable death. Not that it didn't serve June as well, since the risk was there that Eleanore would spill the beans... What a bummer Eleanore didn't get out. Sigh.

[Joana]

The Aunt who defected back in S1 was a lot more valuable source of information because she was actually a part of the regime and knows how things work on the inside, unlike Serena who was completely sidelined and spent her days knitting and gardening. What can she be possibly good for? She's lucky as hell to get a deal of any kind and that they're letting her spend time with the baby is just ridiculous. 

[Umbelina]

14 minutes ago, Joana said:

The Aunt who defected back in S1 was a lot more valuable source of information because she was actually a part of the regime and knows how things work on the inside, unlike Serena who was completely sidelined and spent her days knitting and gardening. What can she be possibly good for? She's lucky as hell to get a deal of any kind and that they're letting her spend time with the baby is just ridiculous. 

Aunts know nothing about the power structure or plans of the leaders of Gilead.  At best they know birthrates and how to subjugate women.  They would have no idea about weapons, the wars, the plans, supplies, or anything to do with government.

Serena doesn't need to be useful, she cut a deal and turned over Fred.  She's free.

However, there are many ways she could be useful.  She's the most famous woman in/from Gilead.  She's able to speak and write and change minds, she was one of the powers behind building up Gilead, and it's logical to assume she might be useful in bringing it down as well.

She's got massive propaganda potential.   Moira and Luke wouldn't have let her see Holly if that hadn't been explained to them.

The goal is not to punish Fred or Serena, the goal is to bring down Gilead, or at least wound it.

Edited August 8, 2019 by Umbelina
typo

[tennisgurl]

I don’t know if anyone’s mentioned this yet, but Netflix show Dear White People is doing a hilarious Handmaids Tale parody as a running joke through the season. It’s so spot on, all they need if for the camera to close up on the June character as she glares into the camera. “I can’t believe I spent so much time being angry that LaLa Land didn’t win best picture...”

[secnarf]

18 hours ago, Souris said:

Both those reasons are why I thought it was stupid of June to just let her die. They could have all kept a close eye on Eleanor until the plan finished. As apt as Eleanor was to spill the beans, she was just one variable, one who could be controlled if they put in the effort. Her death could have created other variables, like Lawrence backing out of the plan or June being sent to another house immediately, which June couldn’t control. Just stupid.

While Eleanor obviously couldn’t be taken to a hospital, I thought they could have possibly forced an emetic down her to get her to vomit up whatever drugs were still in her stomach, which could maybe have been enough to save her. (And where the hell did she get enough pills to OD on???)

With her altered level of consciousness, the drugs were already absorbed into her bloodstream. And forcing someone in this situation to vomit is far more likely to cause them to aspirate or choke and die than it is to help them. Forcing emesis is almost always a bad idea. In situations where it might be warranted it should be done safely (e.g. 'pumping the stomach') to prevent aspiration/choking. However, as I mentioned earlier, it would not have made any difference if the drugs were already absorbed.

Like many here, my initial thought was also that Lawrence won't go through with the plan if Eleanor dies. The look that he gave June at the funeral was chilling. I'm not convinced he won't change his mind.

17 hours ago, kieyra said:

Based on comments lately about EM’s power behind the scenes, I wonder if she intentionally minimized Emily’s role this season because 1) Fans loved Emily more than June, 2) Alexis Bledel shocked everyone by being the superior actress and scooping up her own awards.

Never mind that at this point I wish we would have had Alexis OR Samira in the lead role. You know, ideally with better writing.

I never thought of that about Emily. It would be really sad if that were true as she is the best part of the show IMO! Alexis Bledel would have been fantastic as June.

Although I have no doubt Samira Wiley would also have done well as June, she has such a lovely genuine smile that lights up her face and I don't think we would get to see that as much if she were June. She also has a presence that I don't think was intended for June, who seems to be a meeker and weaker character. But again, she is such a great actor that I'm sure she would be able to pull it off - it just wouldn't be the same June that we know now. Maybe if Samira was playing her, I wouldn't dislike her so much.

[mamadrama]

6 hours ago, Baltimore Betty said:

One of our posters wrote it out word for word and I litterally teared up...Luke could have had that moment.  Luke also could have had a better moment than hauling off and punching Fred, there could have been a "I've got a particular set of skills" moment too.  I feel like Luke will not be allowed to get any where close to Fred ever again, lost opportunity to give depth to Luke and his pain.

I'm angry and disappointed at that lost opportunity, too, but in hindsight it DOES kind of seem to go along with Luke's personality. I don't dislike him, but I don't like him either. I guess I am kind of whelmed by him. I think they were trying to make him kind of just this average dude, but there have been times when I have wanted to throw a punch or two at him. 

Honestly, the way people keep going back and forth as to whether June should wind up with NIck or Luke, I'm kind of over here rooting for her and Moira. 

[AnswersWanted]

6 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

I'm kind of over here rooting for her and Moira. 

Oh gods no, my girl Moira deserves so much better than jack eyed June.

[mamadrama]

1 hour ago, AnswersWanted said:

Oh gods no, my girl Moira deserves so much better than jack eyed June.

Oh, for sure. Moira's definitely too good for June. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

On 8/7/2019 at 1:01 AM, rideashire said:

RIP Eleanor, you were a real one.

This was wonderful ^

On 8/7/2019 at 1:02 AM, AnswersWanted said:

So everyone made sure to tell June just how AMAZING and BOSS she is within the first 10 minutes so we didn’t miss quota. 

The entire episode was this bullshit.

On 8/7/2019 at 1:09 AM, Brn2bwild said:

June is stone-cold.  I can understand why she did it, but damn. 

Wait, why?  I honestly don't get it?

Edited:  Okay, i've read some theories here now.

Edited August 9, 2019 by Ms Blue Jay

[mamadrama]

I can't help but thinking that rather than getting 52 children out of Gilead, they ought to focus on getting their mothers (or fathers) out. Rescue the adults who can then go apeshit  to the press and the rest of the world and demand the release of their children. Have them throw a shitshow. 

Don't get me wrong, I don't want the kids to grow up in Gilead, and I'd certainly be trying to get my daughter out, but I just feel like this "plan" hasn't been thought through enough. Where are they going when they get out? Foster care? As many have pointed out, some of these kids have become acclimated to Gilead and this may be all that some of them remember. It's going to be traumatic. Is there someone ready on the Canada side to find housing for them? There doesn't seem to be an actual plan beyond getting them on a plane. 

I guess my heart is saying "save the children and get them the hell out of there" while my head is saying, "the children are at least getting their basic needs met, let's save the women who are being held as sex slaves first." To ME,it feels more logical to focus on the immediate needs first. But that's kind of where June lacks in the brain department-she doesn't think long term. 

ETA: I know someone is going to read this and try to argue that I don't want the kids to get out of Gilead so I'll just reiterate: I DO want the kids out of there, I'm just not seeing logic in this plan when there are other people who are probably in fear for their lives and being raped once a month. I'd like to see THEM out, too. 

Edited August 9, 2019 by mamadrama

[Umbelina]

I understand what you are saying @mamadrama.

I think they ARE getting others out when they can. 

I do agree with getting the kids out though, for a couple of reasons.  

1. Children are very rare, and so at a premium, and they will most certainly have loving homes in Canada.  Some will reunite with a parent or relative that has already escaped, others will be gratefully welcomed into homes where they get to read, and play.  I'm sure both Canada and the refugees will rally around those children.
2. Those girls parading through the hospital where June was being held are almost ready to have children.  Many of them have never even been allowed to read, and are so indoctrinated it's horrifying.  What happened to Eden could easily happen to them.
3. The biggest thing is that the Martha's already have a trusted network, and the Martha's are also the nannies.  Arranging to get the children out will, I think, be much easier than trying to rescue 52 adults.
4. To go with the above, which of the handmaids could even be trusted, or be sure to "get free" that night?  Every person that knows what is happening will be a risk.  What if another snitch hears about it?
5. I'm hoping some of the Martha's (or all of them!) ARE going with the kids, so adult should be rescued as well, at least some of them.  

[mamadrama]

8 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I understand what you are saying @mamadrama.

I think they ARE getting others out when they can. 

I do agree with getting the kids out though, for a couple of reasons.  

1. Children are very rare, and so at a premium, and they will most certainly have loving homes in Canada.  Some will reunite with a parent or relative that has already escaped, others will be gratefully welcomed into homes where they get to read, and play.  I'm sure both Canada and the refugees will rally around those children.
2. Those girls parading through the hospital where June was being held are almost ready to have children.  Many of them have never even been allowed to read, and are so indoctrinated it's horrifying.  What happened to Eden could easily happen to them.
3. The biggest thing is that the Martha's already have a trusted network, and the Martha's are also the nannies.  Arranging to get the children out will, I think, be much easier than trying to rescue 52 adults.
4. To go with the above, which of the handmaids could even be trusted, or be sure to "get free" that night?  Every person that knows what is happening will be a risk.  What if another snitch hears about it?
5. I'm hoping some of the Martha's (or all of them!) ARE going with the kids, so adult should be rescued as well, at least some of them.  

I don't know, I agree with the person upthread who mentioned the field trip experience. I volunteer with my kids' schools and sometimes just getting 20 of them to and from the bathroom is a challenge. 

[ferjy]

23 hours ago, AgentRXS said:

Oh look! Moira had her obligatory 5 minutes of screentime this week! Samira is so much better than this show. I'm so disappointed in how underutilized she is.

June's smugness is absolutely unbearable. I am glad the season is ending as my nerves are shot from watching her. Literally every other character is more interesting but I'm being forced to watch Elisabeth Moss contort her face in ugly closeups every week. I really wish that their was a huge overhaul behind the scenes before Season 4. What a waste of an excellent premise.

Honestly. When Moira or Emily are onscreen, it seems like a different show.

[rideashire]

2 hours ago, mamadrama said:

I don't know, I agree with the person upthread who mentioned the field trip experience. I volunteer with my kids' schools and sometimes just getting 20 of them to and from the bathroom is a challenge. 

This is what I'm wondering about, how are they going to manage snagging 52 kids and not a single one of them blows the whole thing by crying or screaming or having to pee and then having a fit? It's not realistic which means they will likely gloss it over. 

I also wonder if there's an age limit on these kids because the older you go they'll think they've been kidnapped not rescued and may not go willingly.

[ferjy]

2 hours ago, mamadrama said:

To ME,it feels more logical to focus on the immediate needs first. But that's kind of where June lacks in the brain department-she doesn't think long term. 

Neither do the show runners. They want to tug at our heartstrings because they focus on children and figure we'll all be behind June because of it. But you're absolutely right. Get the ones that are most at risk out first. Then get a message out to Canada (with these women, perhaps) about how many children there are in Gilead who will eventually suffer that fate and go from there.

[Umbelina]

5 minutes ago, rideashire said:

This is what I'm wondering about, how are they going to manage snagging 52 kids and not a single one of them blows the whole thing by crying or screaming or having to pee and then having a fit? It's not realistic which means they will likely gloss it over. 

I also wonder if there's an age limit on these kids because the older you go they'll think they've been kidnapped not rescued and may not go willingly.

We shall see.

One thing they have going for them is one Martha per child, and a few extra people along as well.  So it won't really be like a school trip where there are usually 4-6 adults with numerous kids, all amped up.

I wonder if they are leaving in the middle of the night?  If so, the toddlers and babies will mostly be asleep and carried.  Or maybe they are sending cars/trucks now that Lawrence has his clearances back?

[ferjy]

3 minutes ago, rideashire said:

This is what I'm wondering about, how are they going to manage snagging 52 kids and not a single one of them blows the whole thing by crying or screaming or having to pee and then having a fit? It's not realistic which means they will likely gloss it over.  

I also wonder if there's an age limit on these kids because the older you go they'll think they've been kidnapped not rescued and may not go willingly.

Right, they'll all be Stepford children and follow along quietly and obediently. These writers.

[Umbelina]

They will be with their nannies, and most of those kids probably know them better than their parents.  I doubt they will think they are being kidnapped.

"It's a surprise!" for the slightly older ones, and toddlers and babies will probably be asleep, if, as I suspect, this is a middle of the night operation.  I'm sure the nannies know what they should say to each kid.

I doubt it will go off without a hitch, but I'm excited that they are trying to do this, and suspect it will work.  It's the finale after all, and Fred's already been arrested which was my first guess for a season ender.

That said, if you go into the episode expecting to hate it, I think that's probably what will happen.  I'm going to give it a chance, I've been impressed the last four episodes.  I love that we are finally seeing progress into the larger world.  They may blow it, but I hope they nail it.

Edited August 9, 2019 by Umbelina