S03.E10: Witness

[jenn31]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Glad June chose those with skills for the resistance. 

Good move. God knows she doesn’t have any. 

[DiabLOL]

This season Lawrence seems like a completely different person in each episode. Even though he wasn't on as much last season and was mysterious I still didnt experience this.

From the very first time I saw his wife I thought that her mental illness was the only appropriate decent response to the world they lived in.

[jenn31]

14 hours ago, AnswersWanted said:

Also, the Jaws line at the end...can they get sued for that? Please? I'm asking for a friend.

That was so cheesy. Followed by her... whichever face. The facial expressions have all amalgamated into one in my head at this point. 

Edited July 24, 2019 by jenn31

[dmc]

For a second I thought this was the season finale and almost choked on my wine

June is crazy “what would it take to get all the children out”

me: a Fucking miracle 
 

fred is delusional...”are you okay?” 
 

me:  homeboy didn’t try for a meet cute after another coordinated rape

🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️

 

[Joana]

It starts with June hobbling, in slow motion no less, and I'm thinking it can't possibly go well. But surprisingly, it wasn't the worst episode ever. Something actually happened! Of course, a lot of "something" was absolute nonsense, but hey, at this point, I'll take anything that moves the story forward.

Also, the ceremony was genuinely chilling and reminiscent of the good old days of S1. It was also refreshing to see June act rationally for a change - and then of course she goes on to ruin everything with that "At least it wasn't you" remark. Remember how well it went when she used to provoke Serena like that throughout the last two seasons? And Fred is now like 5 times crazier and more sinister, which she's well aware of, so yeah. But she's probably become aware of her plot armour, too.

I also loved Beth's and Alma's initial reaction to June. I was like, well done girls, you've finally seen the light! Sadly it didn't take them long to (re)join the Cult of June, because she can maybe, perhaps, possibly, get them a truck to take a bunch of kids from their well-guarded homes and take them across the border. I really wonder how no one had thought of this brilliant plan before. Sure, Jan June. God, how I wish they had used and reworked that iconic GIF. It would have been perfect!

Are the writers pretending that S2 never happened? Because it was ALL about Fred being set up to fail, going from one mistake to another, with his reputation increasingly diminishing each episode. Hell, the season ended with him being held at gun point by HIS DRIVER, and he wasn't able to do anything about it. Now, all of a sudden, he's more powerful than ever and gets to boss Commander Lawrence (the one who doesn't go to meetings, the meetings come to him??!!) around? Why? Because Commander Meloni has hots for him and wants to get into his pants? Actually... That kind of stuff does happen IRL, sadly. It might even make sense. Also, why is Serena hovering around following those two Commanders wherever they go and participating in their discussions. Shouldn't she be sitting at home like a good Wife she is? Really, this show is just a collection of (mostly visually very effective, to be fair) random scenes. 

Speaking of Serena, she can't possibly be THAT dumb to seriously believe the American agent would help her get her "daughter" back. So, what gives? Is she playing Fred? She looked like she was seething on the inside when she saw that Fred's Junesession hadn't cooled off. 

Of course, Janine's son is dead, because that's just the way it is. Sigh. 

Edited July 25, 2019 by Joana

[kieyra]

Have Hulu going because of another show, so I skimmed the last 20-30 minutes. Even with reading recaps and your posts in the thread every week, as someone who checked out back in season two-ish, this show is basically unrecognizable now, other than somehow it still seems to be about June, Serena and Fred. 

 It was admittedly without much context on my part, but the focus on the Lawrences’ angst at the ceremony bugged me. But so does this show’s entire “fascists are people too” message. 

Edited July 25, 2019 by kieyra

[go4luca]

1 hour ago, Joana said:

Also, the ceremony was genuinely chilling and reminiscent of the good old days of S1.

I have to admit being concerned for a minute or two that Fred would insist on being in the room for the ceremony, bringing Serena, Winslow & Lydia with him.  Fred is so messed up at this point, it wouldn't have surprised me.

[Quickbeam]

I really liked this episode. I felt that it moved the narrative along. I strongly felt that Joseph’s feet needed to be held to the fire to make the world building believable. I also thought it was just compassion that June told Janine her son was in California. Strongest performance goes to the actress who plays Mrs. Lawrence who really carries every scene she is in.

[chaifan]

I liked this episode.  At this point, I am just pretending that Episode 8 was really episode 2 or 3, and everything in the middle didn't really happen.  If you look at it that way, this is a good season.  😉  I liked how the first few scenes were just constant disses/eyerolls at June.  "I need something."  "Really?  Damn, that's a shocker."  "June, you're as subtle as a Mack Truck." 

Serena - she overheard the comment by the DC commander about rings & veils, and I think this truly bothers her.  She's been pushed to the edge a few times, keeps coming back, but this could be it.  And, she knows Fred's "issues" with Lawrence are total BS, and it's all about his obsession with June.  My theory (the one that keeps me happy) is that at this point Serena is playing Fred with the sat phone bit.  She is trying to convince Fred to defect, to turn on Gilead, so she can get Nicole back.  But I think she knows while cute American guy could keep her out of prison, Fred would be toast in Canada.  But she doesn't care because at this point she wants Nicole back, but not back in Gilead.  I think she would trade Fred for Nicole in a heartbeat. 

Comm. Lawrence - I really like this character, and I like where the story is taking him.  There's still a lot of questions as to why he created Gilead as he did, was he ever a true believer, did he play along to survive, etc. etc. etc.  I loved Eleanor's blunt assessment  - he's a war criminal.  Good, glad someone said it.  I think his not engaging in "the ceremony" is more for his wife's sake than the handmaids, but he feels enough guilt about what he's done that he can't even bear to look at the red center files, and shoves them in the basement.  Showing up at the Canadian border with a bunch of handmaids and stolen children would go a long way.

So here's what I'd love to see (but know won't happen)...  Fred and Comm. Lawrence end up at the Canadian border in a showdown of No!  You can't betray Gilead to save your own ass, I'm going to betray Gilead to save my own ass!  I got here first!  No, I did!  And this goes on as the Canadian border patrol help a bunch of handmaids, marthas and kids out of the (very big) truck, followed by Eleanor.  But as Serena starts to exit, they say "sorry, ma'am, Canada's full".  They shut the doors, shoot Fred, and bring Comm. Lawrence to the Canadian authorities. 

[Joana]

Why would the American government possibly want to assist in handing over a baby conceived through rape to the rapists, who have no legal rights to it under the American laws and BTW are also guilty of high treason? It makes less than zero sense. If it indeed is Serena playing Fred, not even he is stupid enough to believe it. And if she actually believes it's possible, than she's delusional, as in mentally ill.

Edited July 25, 2019 by Joana

[BrindaWalsh]

I just have to say, if I were June, surrounded by a large group of handmaids, and I saw Fred and Serena enter a room - after ALL that has happened - you can bet your white bonnet that I would dip my head down low, murmer my words obediently and take full advantage of the opportunity to thoroughly blend into the crowd.  You know what I would not do?  Keep my head up, stare at them, with my mouth gaping open like I'm trying to catch a fly for dinner, just asking to draw their attention.  Why?  Because LITERALLY NOTHING GOOD HAPPENS WHEN THEY COME AROUND. 

[Armchair Critic]

23 hours ago, ferjy said:

June hobbling around like Igor. She now has a limp to match her constant grimace. Next week they’ll give her a hunched back.

Also the way she always juts out her chin when she's upset, so annoying.

[AllyB]

Right up until Serena showed Fred the satellite phone, I thought she was working with Truello and has been since not too long after she got to DC. Admittedly it was the 'previously on' scenes with him and the phone that put the idea in my head, so I could have been seeing what wasn't there. But I thought that the way she was questioning Fred and Winslow about how other commanders were reacting to changes, was her specifically gathering information that Truello had asked her for. The fact that Fred and Winslow reacted oddly to her questioning and she immediately dialled it back, really made it seem like she was fishing for information. It would also explain why she didn't report June for trying to shiv her in the previous episode. And why her affection for Fred was reignited after walking through the house of the baptist family in DC. She was actually upset by the evidence of the destroyed family and she called Truello and he convinced her to play Fred. Then she went and showed Fred the phone and said it would help them get Nicole back and my theory fell apart. But maybe, just maybe, it's all part of a longer game to have Fred captured by the US while Serena swans off to Hawaii.
 

10 hours ago, Joana said:

Of course, Janine's son is dead, because that's just the way it is. Sigh. 

I suspect just a little that Caleb was written as dead for a "positive" reason. In the last episode, Charlotte will be crying and risk endangering the great escape and will need her mother to keep her quiet. Janine will have to go with her. And unlike June, who rejected the same escape opportunity so she could stay and save Hannah, it will be alright for Janine to leave Gilead because her other kid is dead.

That said, I always thought Janine had two kids pre-Gilead.

Edited July 25, 2019 by AllyB

[Baltimore Betty]

6 hours ago, Joana said:

Why would the American government possibly want to assist in handing over a baby conceived through rape to the rapists, who have no legal rights to it under the American laws and BTW are also guilty of high treason? It makes less than zero sense. If it indeed is Serena playing Fred, not even he is stupid enough to believe it. And if she actually believes it's possible, than she's delusional, as in mentally ill.

I think Serena wants a foot in both Canada and Gilead, while she wants Nichole back she also wants a Gilead with less horror, a place where she can enjoy some of the freedom she would have in Canada but the order they have in Gilead, you know, like not losing a finger or an eye for reading.  Remember pre Gilead Serena was the one in the spot light and Fred was the purse holder so if Serena can orchestrate Nichole's return (without giving away the fact that she had a phone and a contact) she may be regarded as "someone" in the Commander's eyes and not just a lowly woman.  I think she cannot help asserting herself and being curious so her asking questions and having conversations that are above her pay grade because she did help create somethings in Gilead.

I think Serena felt badly for the ceremony seeing how hard it was on Mrs. Lawrence, I got the feeling that Serena sensed it was the first ceremony they had because of how out of sorts that woman was.

How does June brazenly look Fred and Christopher Meloni (yum) in the eyes and have attitude?  That inspection thing was new to me but everyone else acted like they had done it before on the regular.  Did Mr. Meloni say something about the mouth rings and how they are by request?

Also, why don't they have guards at the cold cases, they have got to see two or three Handmaids standing there staring at a bottle on a shelf for long periods of time. 

Janine said she would help and that she could be brave, I guess she will chaperone the kids that can get out of Gilead and get herself out too.  How can they cross the boarder when Emily had to swim across a raging river to escape?

Could the season cliffhanger be that June gets pregnant from Commander Lawrence?

[rubinia]

27 minutes ago, Baltimore Betty said:

That inspection thing was new to me but everyone else acted like they had done it before on the regular. 

Also, why don't they have guards at the cold cases, they have got to see two or three Handmaids standing there staring at a bottle on a shelf for long periods of time.

June said in a voiceover that “they” (other Commanders? Guards?) would bear witness to ceremonies in the very early time of Gilead, because some families would resist the ceremony.

Re: your second point, agreed! 

[Baltimore Betty]

2 minutes ago, rubinia said:

June said in a voiceover that “they” (other Commanders? Guards?) would bear witness to ceremonies in the very early time of Gilead, because some families would resist the ceremony.

Re: your second point, agreed! 

Not bearing witness as in the ceremony but when all the Handmaids had to go to that little arena and stand at attention.

[Joana]

I thought it would happen like this: Commander Meloni (sorry not sorry I still don't know his show name) makes a pass on Fred, he realizes his career is at stake and goes along with it, Serena finds out and decides it's finally been enough, so she defects and inflicts as much damage as she can on Gilead in the process.

That she would reveal her cards at this point is very strange and I don't see what she has to gain. She's basically blackmailing Fred, who has already inflicted corporal punishement on her twice so he could save his face/reputation. If he now again decides that his career and the power that comes along with it is more important to him than his family (which is very likely), I don't see how any amount of plot armour can keep her from ending up on the Wall as a traitor. And at the same time, the chances of recovering Nichole through the American agent are just about zero. So, I'm rather confused.

Edited July 25, 2019 by Joana

[Helena Dax]

I agree that June isn't exactly a well-written character and her plot armour can be annoying af, but I don't share the criticism about her attitude towards her raptors, torturers and rapists because I've never seen the same criticism directed towards male characters in the same situation.(They're brave, then.)  Besides, some people are better than others at playing meek and it's never been June's forte. So yes, to me her "At least it wasn't you" is awesome.

Fred's death can't come soon enough. Hopefully, Serena is going to betray him: that would be delightful.

[DiabLOL]

14 hours ago, go4luca said:

I have to admit being concerned for a minute or two that Fred would insist on being in the room for the ceremony, bringing Serena, Winslow & Lydia with him.  Fred is so messed up at this point, it wouldn't have surprised me.

Oh yes me too!!! I totally believed the show would actually go there.

[DiabLOL]

3 hours ago, Baltimore Betty said:

Could the season cliffhanger be that June gets pregnant from Commander Lawrence?

He gave her a Plan B after "this is a collector's item" and June said how the punishment for practicing birth control is getting torn apart by a pack of dogs.

Another ominous sign of how much trouble he could be in as well as how obvious it now is that the Lawrences  have never performed The Ceremony before today and his whole household is in grave danger as well for not reporting it to the authorities.

I'd love to learn more about his responsibility for creating Gilead.

Did he make a book? Design a video game? Make a film? Could it have been something like that? It then got out of hand and became real?

Edited July 25, 2019 by DiabLOL

[Ariam]

What happened to Aunt Lydia telling June that she was going to be moved to another household in episode 8? I was expecting that after the hospital she would have been placed in another house. Lydia talked about it with the other aunts too. 

Did the writers just forget about it??? 

Edited July 25, 2019 by Ariam

[Whimsy]

1 hour ago, DiabLOL said:

He gave her a Plan B after "this is a collector's item" and June said how the punishment for practicing birth control is getting torn apart by a pack of dogs.

Another ominous sign of how much trouble he could be in as well as how obvious it now is that the Lawrences  have never performed The Ceremony before today and his whole household is in grave danger as well for not reporting it to the authorities.

I'd love to learn more about his responsibility for creating Gilead.

Did he make a book? Design a video game? Make a film? Could it have been something like that? It then got out of hand and became real?

That was plan B?  It just looked like a standard pack of birth control pills 

[Ramona]

4 hours ago, rubinia said:

June said in a voiceover that “they” (other Commanders? Guards?) would bear witness to ceremonies in the very early time of Gilead, because some families would resist the ceremony.

Re: your second point, agreed! 

Honestly, I thought that Aunt Lydia, The Waterfords et al. were going to watch.  So glad they didn't, that would have been it for me and this show.  BTW, that scene where June realizes what is about to happen, gave me such a sense of dread that I have not felt since the 1st season.  

[Ramona]

1 hour ago, Helena Dax said:

I agree that June isn't exactly a well-written character and her plot armour can be annoying af, but I don't share the criticism about her attitude towards her raptors, torturers and rapists because I've never seen the same criticism directed towards male characters in the same situation.(They're brave, then.)  Besides, some people are better than others at playing meek and it's never been June's forte. So yes, to me her "At least it wasn't you" is awesome.

Fred's death can't come soon enough. Hopefully, Serena is going to betray him: that would be delightful.

I agree.  June is flawed, but how one survives in that situation changes from day to day. I was furious when Fred didn't die in the bombing last season, I am done with him and Serena. 

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, Helena Dax said:

I agree that June isn't exactly a well-written character and her plot armour can be annoying af, but I don't share the criticism about her attitude towards her raptors, torturers and rapists because I've never seen the same criticism directed towards male characters in the same situation.(They're brave, then.)  Besides, some people are better than others at playing meek and it's never been June's forte. So yes, to me her "At least it wasn't you" is awesome.

Fred's death can't come soon enough. Hopefully, Serena is going to betray him: that would be delightful.

Yes, June has crossed over now, as her voice over said, she no longer cares about her own life, and she was a little extra nuts from her latest punishment.

Lots of people thinking Serena may betray Fred!  I didn't see it, but after hearing your ideas?  Could be!

I just want Fred dead, and I think we actually may see it by the end of this season, I hope!  Serena though?  I hope it backfires on her, and we finally see what happens to a *useless* wife after her husband is disgraced/killed.  There are not many options, as June said with that song.

Wife, Jezebel, Handmaid, Martha, Aunt, Colonies (econowife too, but she didn't say that one, and obviously Serena doesn't qualify.)

ETA, forgot Aunt, oh I hope they don't make her an Aunt!

30 minutes ago, Ramona said:

Honestly, I thought that Aunt Lydia, The Waterfords et al. were going to watch.  So glad they didn't, that would have been it for me and this show.  BTW, that scene where June realizes what is about to happen, gave me such a sense of dread that I have not felt since the 1st season.  

Me too!  That longer preview certainly made it look like that, and I fully expected to absolutely hate this episode.  I was dreading it.  Instead?  We got this gift...by far the best episode in a while.

Edited July 25, 2019 by Umbelina

[PamelaMaeSnap]

On 7/24/2019 at 12:58 AM, Umbelina said:

Aw Janine!  Thank God for that eye-patch, you are back in the story now!  Janine's boy is in Califonia!  Oh please let this mean we will get to see California, even though on that leaked map,

Apologies if this has been responded to a bunch of times, but once I hit "select quote" it threw me down here ... 

The scene with Janine really moved me because June read in the Handmaids files that Janine's son was killed in a car crash a few years earlier, so she made the story up by giving him a fairy-tale happy ending that she knew Janine could not corroborate. Sweet June. 

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, PamelaMaeSnap said:

Apologies if this has been responded to a bunch of times, but once I hit "select quote" it threw me down here ... 

The scene with Janine really moved me because June read in the Handmaids files that Janine's son was killed in a car crash a few years earlier, so she made the story up by giving him a fairy-tale happy ending that she knew Janine could not corroborate. Sweet June. 

Yes, I was corrected.  Dang phone call made me miss that.

I could tell from June's face he'd died, so I don't know why I ever thought he was alive (and also, California?)  I missed that crucial scene.

At least Charlotte is still alive, and I bet she still remembers Janine "we smell alike." 

[Slovenly Muse]

So, "the vow" is being rolled out across Gilead, but on a voluntary basis? Suuuuuure. Probably in the way that being a Handmaid is considered voluntary. As in you can volunteer for it, or else volunteer for the colonies.

I bet this dumb "vow" system lasts as long as it takes one pregnant handmaid to get morning sickness and choke to death on her own vomit, killing a fertile woman and unborn baby in one fell swoop. The veil on its own does the job you want. The rings are nonsense.

1 hour ago, Ariam said:

What happened to Aunt Lydia telling June that she was going to be moved to another household in episode 8? I was expecting that after the hospital she would have been placed in another house. Lydia talked about it with the other aunts too. 

Did the writers just forget about it??? 

I was wondering this too, but I think she had said she wanted to move June because the Lawrence house seemed to make every Handmaid that went through it "trouble," and therefore the household might be the problem. When June decided to stay with her walking partner even after the baby was saved, I think we are to assume that Aunt Lydia's worries were assuaged, and that she now sees June as appropriately obedient and cooperative, not influenced by a dysfunctional household. Especially now that she "knows" the ceremony is happening properly, I don't think she has a reason to go through with taking the extreme step of denying a Commander a Handmaid, when there is no concrete reason to do so. However...

I have this sign, something I look for that tells me when it's time to quit a show that is not up to snuff. I look at the forums, and I see fans putting a lot of effort into imagining interesting twists and turns that the story could have up its sleeve. Are the Swedish only pretending to negotiate while they plant spies in Gilead? Is Nick secretly working against Gilead and that's why Sweden didn't want to meet with him, because they wanted to preserve his cover? Is Serena manipulating Fred and planning to betray him to the Americans?

Here's the sign: If the answer to these fan theories turns out to be "yes" or "actually, it's even better," the show deserves my time. But if the answer is "no" and the fans are putting more thought and effort into crafting a intriguing season of supposedly "award-winning" and "challenging" television than the professional writers hired to do specifically that, then I know the show is no longer worth putting MY mental energy into.

I want some of these awesome twists to pan out, and I hope the show pulls it out at the end and proves it was doing more than wasting time for the first nine hours of the season, but I suspect that what we see is what we are going to get.

[texassunflower]

I agree with the other posters this episode finally moved the story forward. I find Commander Lawrence and his wife Eleanor interesting characters and wish we could have an episode of his backstory. The ceremony was obviously a first time for this household. Commander Lawrence has had 4 handmaids. Did no one question before now why none of his previous handmaid's had not produced a child? Why is Eleanor denied the medication she obviously needs? She appears manic depressive to me. Bradley Whitford has a new network show this fall, so I assume they will be wrapping up his storyline. I hope the season finale shows a truckload of handmaids and children crossing into Canada. Eleanor needs to be on that truck. I fear she will take her own life if she continues to live in Gilead. Good episode and I hope the last two episodes will continue to be as good.

Edited July 25, 2019 by texassunflower

[Umbelina]

34 minutes ago, texassunflower said:

Did no one question before now why none of his previous handmaid's had not produced a child? Why is Eleanor denied the medication she obviously needs? She appears manic depressive to me.

Remember, babies are still rare, and as that doctor said, most of the Commanders are sterile.

There is an interview I just posted in the media thread with Fiennes, and it addresses how and why Fred has undermined Joseph, and risen, while June was stuck in the hospital by the way.

Gilead doesn't believe in doctors, in science, or in medicine for things like mood stabilizers.  Since that's what Eleanor said she needs?  Bi-Polar is probably her issue.

[GreekGeek]

1 hour ago, texassunflower said:

I agree with the other posters this episode finally moved the story forward. I find Commander Lawrence and his wife Eleanor interesting characters and wish we could have an episode of his backstory. The ceremony was obviously a first time for this household. Commander Lawrence has had 4 handmaids. Did no one question before now why none of his previous handmaid's had not produced a child? Why is Eleanor denied the medication she obviously needs? She appears manic depressive to me. Bradley Whitford has a new network show this fall, so I assume they will be wrapping up his storyline. I hope the season finale shows a truckload of handmaids and children crossing into Canada. Eleanor needs to be on that truck. I fear she will take her own life if she continues to live in Gilead. Good episode and I hope the last two episodes will continue to be as good.

Yes, I would love to see an episode on the Lawrences. I thought it had been made explicit that Eleanor has bipolar disorder. She said herself that she was being given herbal tea instead of medicine.

Did anyone else think that when Serena went to check on Eleanor after the "ceremony" that she would find Eleanor dead by her own hand?

I hope Lawrence isn't written out of the show. He's the most interesting character around. Loved his suggestion that they play pinochle. It would be a neat twist if June did get pregnant by him, but they've already done a pregnancy story with her. It was kind of blurred out whether June actually took the contraceptive pills or just drank a glass of water. Oooh, another horrendous punishment--being ripped apart by dogs!

Poor Janine. June's story about her son being on a beach in California reminded me of telling kids that their dead dog is in a farm upstate.

Edited July 25, 2019 by GreekGeek

[kieyra]

3 hours ago, Slovenly Muse said:

Here's the sign: If the answer to these fan theories turns out to be "yes" or "actually, it's even better," the show deserves my time. But if the answer is "no" and the fans are putting more thought and effort into crafting a intriguing season of supposedly "award-winning" and "challenging" television than the professional writers hired to do specifically that, then I know the show is no longer worth putting MY mental energy into.

I think of this as the fanwank law. (Nothing wrong with speculation or even fanwank, but when there’s more discussion and theorizing of things that might happen or might explain seemingly senseless events than there is discussion of what actually happened, that’s a show fail.)

[texassunflower]

Thank you Umbelina and GreekGeek for clarifying that Eleanor has bipolar disorder. I remember from a previous episode that Lawrence didn't want children but Eleanor did. When Commander Lawrence was helping create Gilead, did he not consider the fact that his wife would be denied her medications? I believe he is disillusioned with the way Gilead has turned out and would gladly leave. I will go to the Media thread and read what Joseph Fiennes has to say about about the betrayal.

[go4luca]

10 hours ago, Ramona said:

Honestly, I thought that Aunt Lydia, The Waterfords et al. were going to watch.  So glad they didn't, that would have been it for me and this show.  BTW, that scene where June realizes what is about to happen, gave me such a sense of dread that I have not felt since the 1st season.  

On 7/24/2019 at 5:42 PM, go4luca said:

I have to admit being concerned for a minute or two that Fred would insist on being in the room for the ceremony, bringing Serena, Winslow & Lydia with him.  Fred is so messed up at this point, it wouldn't have surprised me.

Yep.  Exactly my thoughts.   With as off the wall creepy as Gilead's doctrine is, I was surprised the show didn't go there.  I'm grateful it didn't.

[mamadrama]

On 7/24/2019 at 1:36 AM, Umbelina said:

No, I think Serena is just baby-nuts, they better not be trying another "redemption crap" thing with her.

I'm over it.

June has developed this though, she's the one who cultivated Eleanor, and she found those files, and she also made efforts with Lawrence and with the resistance.  It's almost as if (please God, make the showrunners have purchased several vowels) she's learned from her mistakes, and she has, slowly, turned into an actual revolutionary with more than just vague plans.

She also gave Joseph an actual reason to do this, to save his wife, she provided a way to do possibly do that and not be dead.  That was actually pretty smart.

I'd just about given up on this show, but this episode?  Shows so damn much progress and hope.

Spy Guy being back would have been enough of a gift, but the rest?  All fit. 

Also, that ceremony prep scene was emmy work for all three of them.

I don't think June has learned a damn thing, and the idea of smuggling a bunch of kids out while Lawrence, one of the highest levels in this shitshow, is being threatened and under surveillence is laughable. Her highly developed plan is to literally get a truck and fill it with refugees-in a town where there are literally guards doing traffic checks just to get from one side of the city to the other, much less border crossings. Emily, one person with one baby, nearly died getting across the river. June knows nothing about what the border crossings look like. Her plan is literally stops at "get the kids out." The way she talks, it sounds like she thinks that the Marthas can just all smuggle the kids out in the middle of the night and throw a blanket over them in the back while they all roadtrip into Montreal. And but of course Super June, the bionic Handmaid, was the one who gave Lawrence the idea of taking his wife out of Gilead...because naturally a highly intelligent person who created the entire economy and colony system could have NEVER realized that this crazy place was bad for his crazy wife on his own...

At least interesting things happened in this episode but the choices they are making with the various characters are insane. My mom walked in at one point and thought she was watching an SNL sketch. Eleanor's reactions are the only thing I am buying into.

[Joana]

15 hours ago, mamadrama said:

Her plan is literally stops at "get the kids out." 

LOL, exactly this. It's "I have a truck, so let's gets the kids out". I mean, there must be a reason why no one tried to rescue the children before, and it's certainly not that the June was the only one smart enough to think of it. No, it's because it would require an enormous level of effort and coordination that the resistance movement simply is not able to provide. Plus, like you say, the timing of the plan is nothing short of brilliant, with tightened security in general and her household being watched over in particular.

Not to mention that Commander Lawrence agreed to provide her with a truck so she and his wife would get out and not a bunch of random children that would basically have to be taken by force at first. And I can't imagine he would approve of that plan as it dramatically increases the chances of his wife getting killed, which would kinda beat the point of the whole thing. But, there's no doubt in my mind June will very quickly be able to talk him into it and he'll see the light.

It really looks like the show is going precisely where I didn't want it to go and hoped it wouldn't - Superhero June taking down Gilead on her own. Oh well. 

Edited July 26, 2019 by Joana

[Lemons]

It bugged me when june told the hand maid that her child was in Amherst.  3 hours outside of Boston.  What are they going to be like Greyhound, stopping in Brookline first, get on the Mass Pike head to Amherst, swing North to Canada?  

[Cornhusker12]

June's plan is obviously noble, as others have said it's also obviously not planned out whatsoever, but something nobody has brought up yet is that unfortunately most/all of the kids she tries to save would be COMPLETELY freaked out and resistant and it would basically play out like a mass kidnapping spree. Again, specifically in the minds of the kids themselves. Some of them remember "Before" and would love to leave and live somewhere better and, god willing, reunite with their real parents. But lots of them only know this world and are living their lives as the upper-level protected class of citizens. Based on what we've seen, they seem to be living in an ignorance-is-bliss world. I'm obviously not saying it's right or that they should stay put, but in their minds there's no freaking way they're gonna run into some random handmaid's open arms (and open van door...)

[Miles]

I was rolling my eyes when two characters told June in the beginning "you'll end up on the wall for this", I yelled at my screen "No, you'll end up on the wall for this, June has plot armor 10 meters thick!"

Also Commander Lawrence would end up being executed as a war criminal if he fled to another country? In hat bizzaro world would that be the case? We've never executed mid to lower high level war criminals. Just look what happened to all the Nazis. They got well paying jobs from the US government.

Lawrence is not high level enough to be made an example off, and not low level enough to be worthless to other countries. He doesn't need to bring them anything special. His knowledge and insight into Gilead would not only assure his survival, but life in luxury.

Also are we supposed to believe that children are valuable again? Yesterday Canada was pretty much willing to give a rape-child back to Gilrad against the express wishes of the biological mother.

Could these writers please make up their minds? It's ridiculous how everything falls into Junes hands and how all these people are still willing to help the angel of death, but could they at least make it internally consistent? Is that really too much to ask?

Edited July 26, 2019 by Miles

[Umbelina]

June didn't START the resistance.

It's always been there and we have watched members of it for quite a while.  The Pilot, some people at Jezebels, the Econohusband, the Truck Driver, the Marthas, Lawrence, the suicide bomber, Nick's involved somehow, the woman off to make bombs for the fighters, the people who got Luke across, the person in the hospital that left the marks on the walls for June to follow, and others.

Basically an "Underground Railroad" to Canada existed before June got involved in it.  What June is doing here, being someone who's actually seen more of it than any other single ONE person still in Gilead, is bump it up a level to rescue many all at once instead of just one or two each time.

Which, if you think about it is inevitable, and really did happen already in our history.  It's not risk free.  People will die, they did die, they did risk their lives to help others escape slavery and oppression before. 

June is far from perfect, until all that time reflecting on her knees in the hospital, she was quite selfish, just wanting to get her own daughters out of Gilead.  She had a breakthrough in that hospital, probably in part from watching those young girls coming in for there examinations to see when they would be ready to start popping out babies for Gilead.

She came out of there with a goal to help them all, all of the children, not just her own, which, as I said, has already happened in our history.  The others sent tons of muffins because THEY are also completely done with Gilead, and are willing to risk their lives for the most vulnerable people of all, the children.

Obviously it needs more than a "truck."  That was a metaphor.

June is one of the few, possibly the only one still in Gilead, to see the connecting dots.  The people on the (already existing) underground railroad of Gilead, only knew their own steps, they didn't know the other people involved, or what the step before or after theirs was...for safety.  They detailed this for us in those episodes.

Edited July 26, 2019 by Umbelina
clarity

[mamadrama]

9 hours ago, Joana said:

LOL, exactly this. It's "I have a truck, so let's gets the kids out". I mean, there must be a reason why no one tried to rescue the children before, and it's certainly not that the June was the only one smart enough to think of it. No, it's because it would require an enormous level of effort and coordination that the resistance movement simply is not able to provide. Plus, like you say, the timing of the plan is nothing short of brilliant, with tightened security in general and her household being watched over in particular.

Not to mention that Commander Lawrence agreed to provide her with a truck so she and his wife would get out and not a bunch of random children that would basically have to be taken by force at first. And I can't imagine he would approve of that plan as it dramatically increases the chances of his wife getting killed, which would kinda beat the point of the whole thing. But, there's no doubt in my mind June will very quickly be able to talk him into it and he'll see the light.

It really looks like the show is going precisely where I didn't want it to go and hoped it wouldn't - Superhero June taking down Gilead on her own. Oh well. 

And I'll probably still be here watching because as much as I bitch about it, I just can't seem to look away...

This is not "Not Without My Daughter", Gilead style. If Sally Fields had trouble getting her kid out of Iran, then how's June going to smuggle out 50? And Sally had a donkey! (As well as a shit ton of other people organizing the escape for her. And yeah, I know it's true.)

I guess my problem is that, so far, June has put what looks like 0 thought into any of her "plans." Her last one consisted of lying to Eleanor to get to Hannah's school so that she could murmur to a wall. June herself hasn't done a damn thing. FRED organized the meeting of her daughter at the summer house. Nick got her out of the hospital. The Marthas smuggled her across Boston, and it was Lawrence who helped get Emily and Hollchole out of dodge. When June has done things, people die: Omar, Hannah's Martha, etc. Hearing her simply say that she needs a truck does not inspire confidenc in me.

[mamadrama]

3 hours ago, huskerj12 said:

June's plan is obviously noble, as others have said it's also obviously not planned out whatsoever, but something nobody has brought up yet is that unfortunately most/all of the kids she tries to save would be COMPLETELY freaked out and resistant and it would basically play out like a mass kidnapping spree. Again, specifically in the minds of the kids themselves. Some of them remember "Before" and would love to leave and live somewhere better and, god willing, reunite with their real parents. But lots of them only know this world and are living their lives as the upper-level protected class of citizens. Based on what we've seen, they seem to be living in an ignorance-is-bliss world. I'm obviously not saying it's right or that they should stay put, but in their minds there's no freaking way they're gonna run into some random handmaid's open arms (and open van door...)

I thought about this, too, especially in regards to the real life refugee situation we have right now. Getting all these kids out, presumably without their parents, to take them...where? What facilities does Canada have in place for this many parent-less children? Naturally I don't want them to grow up in Gilead but, as you say, for some this is all they know/remember. In some ways, sneaking them out of their warm beds in the middle of the night, removing them from the only home they remember, is similar to what happened to them before.

June called them "the stolen children of Gilead" yet, so far, the only outside-Gilead reference we have seen to such a thing is literally people trying to decide if June's child should be returned to her rapists. It could be that the rest of the world is not even on the "stolen children" idea train yet. Heck, Mexico apparently wants in on the whole Handmaid deal, and despite there being an entire community of refugees in Canada, they acted like they didn't even know what was goung on in Gilead until the letters went public. Another example of people apparently ignorant and naive until JUNE sets them straight. I don't want the kids in Gilead, but I think this idea is multifaceted when it comes to problems, and I'd like to see the show address this.

[mamadrama]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Obviously it needs more than a "truck."  That was a metaphor.

June is one of the few, possibly the only one still in Gilead, to see the connecting dots.  The people on the (already existing) underground railroad of Gilead, only knew their own steps, they didn't know the other people involved, or what the step before or after theirs was...for safety.  They detailed this for us in those episodes.

I don't think the "truck" was a metaphor for June. She specifically asked for a truck and then referenced the previous escape (which also included a real, non-metaphorical truck). Now the boat? THAT was the metaphor.

The fact that it seems like JUNE is the only one connecting those dots is part of the bigger problem.

[Lemons]

On 7/25/2019 at 10:51 AM, Helena Dax said:

I agree that June isn't exactly a well-written character and her plot armour can be annoying af, but I don't share the criticism about her attitude towards her raptors, torturers and rapists because I've never seen the same criticism directed towards male characters in the same situation.(They're brave, then.)  Besides, some people are better than others at playing meek and it's never been June's forte. So yes, to me her "At least it wasn't you" is awesome.

Fred's death can't come soon enough. Hopefully, Serena is going to betray him: that would be delightful.

It’s not realistic and has nothing to do with if you’re male or female. We see people , both  men and women put to death for the same infractions that June has done.  

If she was smart she would learn how to play meek, totally under the radar and create a plan. But the show has been inconsistent so instead of June being dead, especially after helping the baby escape, she’s planning to retrieve all the children all over the state of Massachusetts with a very powerful man.  And her practically shouting her plans from the rooftop will miraculously work.  It just got really stupid. 

[Lemons]

4 hours ago, huskerj12 said:

June's plan is obviously noble, as others have said it's also obviously not planned out whatsoever, but something nobody has brought up yet is that unfortunately most/all of the kids she tries to save would be COMPLETELY freaked out and resistant and it would basically play out like a mass kidnapping spree. Again, specifically in the minds of the kids themselves. Some of them remember "Before" and would love to leave and live somewhere better and, god willing, reunite with their real parents. But lots of them only know this world and are living their lives as the upper-level protected class of citizens. Based on what we've seen, they seem to be living in an ignorance-is-bliss world. I'm obviously not saying it's right or that they should stay put, but in their minds there's no freaking way they're gonna run into some random handmaid's open arms (and open van door...)

Yes, I can’t wait to see how they’ll do it. I was thinking at first theyll get them at school but they don’t all go to the school.  Then she mentioned one child being in Amherst which means they are scattered over hundreds of miles.  And we’ve all seen how many armed guards are everywhere.  All those AK47s Americans love came in handy. Will June and her array of Martha’s have weapons?  

[LBS]

1 hour ago, mamadrama said:

And Sally had a donkey!

@mamadrama this line literally made me laugh out loud! 

BTW: I totally agree with your post about what are they going to do with the kids once they remove them to Canada (even if they make it there). What family life do they have there? Presumably the majority of their bio families are either dead/enslaved in Gilead so to rip them from the only existence they really know seems a bit cruel even though it is for their own good.  

[Umbelina]

I'm sure plans will be developed now that so many are on board, and they are combining their skills and information.

There is no way that staying in Gilead is better for ANY of those kids.  We've seen their futures if they stay.  Oh, and wow.

Some people are revolutionaries and some are not.  Luckily for those kids, some people enslaved in Gilead are, and want to do something rather than just be meek and survive that hell.

[jenn31]

14 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

There is no way that staying in Gilead is better for ANY of those kids.  We've seen their futures if they stay.  Oh, and wow.

Some people are revolutionaries and some are not.  Luckily for those kids, some people enslaved in Gilead are, and want to do something rather than just be meek and survive that hell.

It’s not that anyone wants them to stay in Gilead, it’s that no one would dream of trying to get them out on some lame-ass idea just because they want to. With June’s record, all the children will die along with anyone foolish enough to help with June’s feeble plan. Of course in these showrunners’ world June will excel no matter how idiotic the plan is. This is why viewers are less than enthusiastic as these episodes go along. 

14 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I'm sure plans will be developed now that so many are on board, and they are combining their skills and information.

You’d think. But I don’t have much confidence in these writers to bring that about. 

Edited July 26, 2019 by jenn31

[Miles]

On 7/25/2019 at 6:25 AM, Joana said:

Why would the American government possibly want to assist in handing over a baby conceived through rape to the rapists, who have no legal rights to it under the American laws and BTW are also guilty of high treason? It makes less than zero sense. If it indeed is Serena playing Fred, not even he is stupid enough to believe it. And if she actually believes it's possible, than she's delusional, as in mentally ill.

Why wouldn't they, if they can get valuable information form the Waterfords for it? The US government has done waaaay worse for waaaay less.

[mamadrama]

36 minutes ago, jenn31 said:

It’s not that anyone wants them to stay in Gilead, it’s that no one would dream of trying to get them out on some lame-ass idea just because they want to. With June’s record, all the children will die along with anyone foolish enough to help with June’s feeble plan. Of course in these showrunners’ world June will excel no matter how idiotic the plan is. This is why viewers are less than enthusiastic as these episodes go along. 

You’d think. But I don’t have much confidence in these writers to bring that about. 

Yeah, I've seen nothing to inspire confidence, though that won't matter to the show runners. Super June will probably prevail anyway.

50 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I'm sure plans will be developed now that so many are on board, and they are combining their skills and information.

There is no way that staying in Gilead is better for ANY of those kids.  We've seen their futures if they stay.  Oh, and wow.

Some people are revolutionaries and some are not.  Luckily for those kids, some people enslaved in Gilead are, and want to do something rather than just be meek and survive that hell.

Have I missed something? I don't recall seeing anyone on here saying that the kids were better off staying.