S08.E04: The Last of the Starks

[anamika]

12 minutes ago, AshleyN said:

I think it's more that Jon is one of the very few people in the world that Sansa actually trusts at this point. She (understandably) views pretty much everyone as a threat and because of that hates the idea of anyone having power over her, but she knows Jon would never hurt her.

She thinks constantly betraying Jon's trust is going to make him be on her side?

Besides, she does not think too highly of Jon's ruling and thinks he is a stupid man in love. They have never agreed on any one decision Jon has taken and she has seen that Dany listens to Jon. So why does she think that Jon will not unknowingly hurt her with his bad decisions?

[maystone]

26 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

My biggest thing about Sansa outing Jon is ok she has some trust with Tyrion, but how doesn't she know that Tyrion won't use this information to take out Jon since he's now a big threat to Dany. It's needlessly putting a target on Jon's back .

Sansa only told Tyrion after she realized that he was a bit fearful of Dany.

[jeansheridan]

39 minutes ago, I-Kare said:

thought it was obvious that he was intentionally pushing her away so that she didn't try to go with him or follow him, so he could go do what he thinks he has to do: go kill Cersei. Everything up to that point pointed toward that being the reality of the scene, at least to me. 

I think people were annoyed she cried after him which isn't fair. She isn't Arya. She loved Renley, she admired Catelyn, she cares for Pod. Brienne has always been emotional and a kick-ass fighter. 

But Jaime needs to deal with Cercei and he knows he is the one who must try at least. 

I have defended Varys but not this time. He is on the wrong side. Jon would not be a good king for the whole kingdom if he doesn't want it. He is great in a crisis in my opinion. He doesn't have a lot of ego. But he also has no vision beyond solving a direct crisis. 

Edited May 6, 2019 by jeansheridan

[chrisvee]

1 hour ago, Growsonwalls said:

He's not going back. I think he;s on a kamikaze mission to kill her. 

I think that’s right. He fooled himself into thinking he could stay in the North with Brienne and let others fight but then he realized life wasn’t going to be that kind. He loathes himself and he’s doing a Theon.

[polyhymnia]

Ugh. No way they have the resources or the ability to build that many ballista let alone mount them on Urine's ship let alone make them strong enough to tear through the other ships like paper. That was so friggin unbelievable that it took me out of the episode.

Also, Cersei doesn't play fair or believe in diplomacy so why wouldn't she fire on the tiny force that Dany brought, what with the fancy ass unrealistic ballista thingamabobs. All the eyerolls.

I liked the first half pretty well.

[jeansheridan]

46 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

Who sold Dany out? How did Euron know that she’d be coming back to Dragonstone right at that time?

I think a big Armada and flying the dragons during the day are fairly obvious. Dany has never been subtle. Plus she was feeling like this was a bit of a victory lap. We saved the world! Woohoo! I think they could calculate her arrival. I am a bit surprised they didn't invade Dragonstone too. Who was holding it while she was gone?

Lots of plotholes, alas.

Edited May 6, 2019 by jeansheridan

[MrWhyt]

48 minutes ago, anamika said:

How much time do these soldiers require to recover from 30 minutes of fighting?

stab wounds, broken bones, etc. don't heal overnight

[Bryce Lynch]

2 hours ago, anamika said:

Poor, poor Missandei.

So Jon and Ghost get absolutely no scenes at all.

Jon continues to be the absolute dumb moron to tell Sansa of all people his secret - he knows the shady shit she's pulled.

Sansa continues to be the absolute worst. Ungrateful and now treacherous to boot. Runs and tells Tyrion Jon's secret - the same Sansa as season one.

Sam was so angry at Dany and still kept Jon's secret for him. Unlike Sansa.

Arya - don't care anymore. She only seems to have a plot with Gendry, these days. Will she even get a scene with Dany and Tyrion before the show ends?

D&D threw SanSan shippers a bone.

I want Dany to just go on a rampage and just burn shit down at this point.

Sansa is pure trash.  Other characters like Jon, Dany, Tyrion and Theon grew into better people through their suffering.

Sansa is the same obnoxious, uncaring, self centered, disloyal little brat she was in Season 1, only she is more dangerous because she has taken lessons from Cersei, Littlefinger and Ramsay.

If she had the balls that those villains have/had, she would be as big a monster as them.

She has never done a single thing for anyone but herself.

[Bryce Lynch]

2 hours ago, Oscirus said:

You know shit has hit the fan when Varys is the one stressing cooler heads prevailing while Tyrion stfu and watches.

Nice goodbyes to certain characters.

R.i.p Missandei, you were an awesome advisor

I loved Missandei, but I never saw her as much of an advisor. Just a great, loyal friend.  If she were a great advisor she would have told her to fire Tyrion and Varys and dragonfire Sansa.

[Oscirus]

10 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

I think a big Armada and flying the dragons during the day are fairly obvious. Dany has never been subtle. Plus she was feeling like this was a bit of a victory lap. We saved the world! Woohoo! I think they could calculate her arrival. I am a bit surprised they didn't invade Dragonstone too. Who was holding it while she was gone?

Lots of plotholes, alas.

Eh Qyburns just good at his whispers job.  As opposed to Varys who's just there to be made fun of by tyrion for not having a penis

[Oscirus]

3 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I loved Missandei, but I never saw her as much of an advisor. Just a great, loyal friend.  If she were a great advisor she would have told her to fire Tyrion and Varys and dragonfire Sansa.

Eh tyrion just needed to be knocked off his high horse, he's fine, but yea the rest are eh.  But yea she was a good friend. That's as close of a good friendship as we'll ever see. Probs could've grown into a good advisor with some good seasoning

[jeansheridan]

6 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

55 minutes ago, anamika said:

How much time do these soldiers require to recover from 30 minutes of fighting?

stab wounds, broken bones, etc. don't heal overnight

Also just the PTSD of having seen half your friends and family slaughtered. I am shocked any dothraki survived. Everyone was tired and battered. 

That said, nobody was really giving Dany public props for her sacrifices. She actually fought in the battle. She was generous to Arya and Gendry. She tried to participate in the joy but nobody was warm to her. I assume Missendrei and Greyworm were cuddling somewhere. Tyrion blew it. And maybe Davos who can usually read a woman. She needed support and admiration. She deserved them too. Tormund of all people seemed to be the only one who said she was amazing. 

I know Dany makes demands but she also puts herself on the line. 

[rmontro]

Jon not saying goodbye to Ghost was harsh, but at least we were spared a scene of him throwing rocks at him and telling him to leave, like we got with Arya and Nymeria.  But at least I think Ghost will be happy with Tormund.

Last week was the peak for me, this episode crushed all my enthusiasm for Game of Thrones out of me.  I don't like where they're going with this.  The only thing I'm looking forward to is Cersei getting hers.  

I know not everyone is on team Daenerys, and that's cool.  But I've literally watched those dragons grow up from babies, and now I had to watch them kill Rhaegel.  Just like they did with Viserion.  Am I going to have to watch Drogon die now too? 

I've always thought Jon Snow would end up on the Iron Throne, and that's okay too.  But for seven seasons they've told us Daenerys was the Breaker of Chains, and was a tough but fair ruler.  They've spent all that time getting me on her side, as she overcame multiple odds.  Only now at the last hour to give us Crazy Daenerys and have all the characters tell us over and over she's going to be a lousy queen.  Her character deserved better than that.

And her begging Jon Snow not to reveal his lineage was beneath her.  Of course Jon was going to tell his family - he's just as dense as Ned in some ways.  As I said, I don't like where this is going.  I almost wish Cersei would have shot her down at the parley, and let Jon Snow avenge her death.  It would probably have spared me further heartbreak.  

[anamika]

39 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

stab wounds, broken bones, etc. don't heal overnight

But the food! Was not Sansa whining about that the last couple of episodes? Should she not be glad that Dany is going to her homebase at Dragonstone?

And I am sure Dany does not expect soldiers with broken bones and injuries to fight? How would that be possible. She's expecting the soldiers who are fit and capable to defend her territories and she's right - Euron was already at Dragonstone. The minute she went North, an energized Cersei was moving in.

17 minutes ago, rmontro said:

Of course Jon was going to tell his family - he's just as dense as Ned in some ways.

He's worse. Ned protected that secret with his honor for 15 years. He did not tell Cat. Jon blabbed to Sansa and she immediately tattled to the Lannisters. Jon should have known better than to trust Sansa.

Edited May 6, 2019 by anamika

[MrWhyt]

3 minutes ago, anamika said:

But the food! Was not Sansa whining about that the last couple of episodes? Should she not be glad that Dany is going to her homebase at Dragonstone?

And I am sure Dany does not expect soldiers with broken bones and injuries to fight?

Dany is not just taking her soldiers but the north men too, Sansa is concerned about the well being of her men. As for not having injured men fight that was why Sansa was asking for time for the soldiers to rest and heal.  I really doubt that any fighter who survived the long night made it through without a scratch.

[anamika]

7 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

Dany is not just taking her soldiers but the north men too, Sansa is concerned about the well being of her men. As for not having injured men fight that was why Sansa was asking for time for the soldiers to rest and heal.  I really doubt that any fighter who survived the long night made it through without a scratch.

How can men with broken bones fight? They are going to be lying on a bed and swing a sword? Obviously Dany is taking with her the men who are fit enough to fight.

Are you saying that Jon is not concerned about the well being of the Northern soldiers who fight with him and who he leads into battle?

[Andromeda]

That was an unsettling and mostly disappointing episode. 

Yay to Jamie getting with Brienne, but then he dumped her!

Jon ignored his DOG and dumped him on someone else?

Another dragon killed? Just like that? Boom, he's dead? Too quick, too soon.

I have always admired Varys' desire to stand up for the little people, but how is thrusting the realm into yet another civil war any way to do that (Jon vs. Dany)? And saying they shouldn't wed because she's stronger than Jon? That tells me Varys prefers a ruler he can manipulate.

I also don't care for the idea that Dany is too...what? mean? unstable? Neither is true. Unable to be manipulated by Tyrion or Varys? I'll buy that. I really does smack of sexism in many ways -- she's a GIRL, we have to prefer the guy over the girl for the top job. Blech.

Cersei seems to have much better advisors -- smart enough to put those big scorpions on the ramparts. Which they had time to do while Dany was saving the North, and getting shit on for it.

Sansa really sucks -- she learned too well from Littlefinger. She's become just like him!

Arya sees clearly, but she left Sansa to her own manipulative devices. I would love for Arya to go off and explore the world, away from the mired mess in Westeros.

I have a feeling the ending will be mostly unsatisfactory, except for Cersei getting her just desserts.

Edited May 6, 2019 by Andromeda
missed a word

[MrWhyt]

Just now, anamika said:

How can men with broken bones fight? They are going to be lying on a bed and swing a sword? Obviously Dany is taking with her the men who are fit enough to fight.

Are you saying that Jon is not concerned about the well being of the Northern soldiers who fight with him and who he leads into battle?

How many men are going to be fit enough to fight? How many of them are  going to be rested enough to spend a month or so marching down to kings landing days after fighting the army of the dead? Sansa was smartly asking for some time for the armies to recover from fighting for their lives.

Jon went along with Dany's orders in order to show her that he was committed to bending the knee to her.

[rmontro]

3 minutes ago, Andromeda said:

I have a feeling the ending will be mostly unsatisfactory, except for Cersei getting her just desserts.

GRRM has been saying for years that the end would be bittersweet, and I've always believed him.  This episode was mostly bitter.

[bijoux]

The last two episodes better include Drogon burning Euron to a crisp and then his charred bones being given to the wildlings to use as toothpicks. Fucking cunt.

[rmontro]

3 minutes ago, bijoux said:

The last two episodes better include Drogon burning Euron to a crisp and then his charred bones being given to the wildlings to use as toothpicks. Fucking cunt.

I wish I could like this post 1,000 times.

[anamika]

5 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

Jon went along with Dany's orders in order to show her that he was committed to bending the knee to her.

I see. So Sansa is more concerned about the well being of these soldiers than the man who has to fight side by side with them?

6 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

How many men are going to be fit enough to fight? How many of them are  going to be rested enough to spend a month or so marching down to kings landing days after fighting the army of the dead? Sansa was smartly asking for some time for the armies to recover from fighting for their lives. 

They can't rest in Dragonstone?  Sansa said there's no food in WF right? What are these resting men going to eat? How would they recover their health with no food?

And as we see Euron has already managed to get to Dragonstone. What if Euron sails to White Harbor and plans an attack there? Will Sansa's men get any rest then?

[Scaeva]

12 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

How many men are going to be fit enough to fight? How many of them are  going to be rested enough to spend a month or so marching down to kings landing days after fighting the army of the dead? Sansa was smartly asking for some time for the armies to recover from fighting for their lives.

Jon went along with Dany's orders in order to show her that he was committed to bending the knee to her.

Sansa wanting the armies to stay put, besides being motivated by self-interest, was not the right decision.

Yes, men are wounded and that means the army is not at full strength. Delaying an advance on King's Landing however means that 1) your army potentially gets snowed into Winterfell, delaying an advance even further since this is a world where you can't campaign in winter, 2) Cersei has more time to gather reinforcements, and 3) Cersei maintains the appearance of being the legitimate government of Westeros since she is ruling over a capital that isn't under siege, contributing to #2 because it likely means entities like the Iron Bank are more likely to extend loans, allowing Cersei to hire more troops.

Finally it's generally a truism in war that nothing good comes from ceding the initiative to your enemies. Delay, and the next battle is probably at Winterfell instead of King's Landing, with most of the advantages (minus dragons) going to Cersei.

Edited May 6, 2019 by Scaeva

[MrWhyt]

Just now, anamika said:

I see. So Sansa is more concerned about the well being of these soldiers than the man who has to fight side by side with them?

seems that way at the moment

Quote

Sansa said there's no food in WF right? What are these resting men going to eat?

with the massive losses I'm sure there some left over. Or perhaps that was another issue that she was going to bring up, the conversation ended once Jon sided with Dany.

Quote

They can't rest in Dragonstone? 

only a small number went to Dragonstone, the rest were taking the long way to King's Landing.

Quote

What if Euron sails to White Harbor and plans an attack there? Will Sansa's men get any rest then?

probably not, but the armies, which include the unsullied and dothraki, should take the chance to rest when they have it.

[tv-talk]

Unforgivable they didnt have a SINGLE WORD spoken between Jon, Sansa, and Arya after Bran revealed the lineage. That should have been one of best scenes in the entire series, the remaining Starks struggling with geopolitical tensions while  wanting to be family and it turns out one of them is King of the whole damn world- don't even see their faces when they find out.  Awful and reminds me of why it's such a shame the show superseded the books.

Sansa might as well BE Littlefinger at this point. The 'normal' thing to have done would be to say "Sorry Jon but this can't be kept a secret" and let everyone know. Every remaining man, woman, and child in the North would have immediately rallied around him as King of the 7 Kingdoms and there'd be little to nothing Dany could do about it. The situation would have to be resolved and Sansa would make her play to her people.

So why does she instead plant a slow working poison into bloodstream of the very force headed to take out Cersei! She could have crippled Dany in the North and maybe won control of situation, instead she increased likelihood her own people would be slaughtered at KL.  Is there an unseen motivation here or does it simply not make any sense?

[ImpinAintEasy]

I loved the episode, not because I love how D&D have portrayed the characters. Very few have been given justice. Certainly not for sensible battle plans, either. However, the themes in this episode, and what I’m assuming the remaining two as well, seem to be straight from GRRM and the ending he has discussed with them. Thematically, it felt like GRRM’s influence was stronger on the show than it has been in years. 

I’m probably never going to get to read the ending in the books, but I do believe, thematically, the final 3 episodes will be George’s ending. It’s just a shame how they fucked up most of the characters by the time they reached this point. 

[bijoux]

2 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I keep forgetting there are two episode threads. 

Where is Ser Davos? Did he go with Jon? I realized Kitt Harrington has filmed no scenes “in the south”. Also, now that the wall is down, are the wildings still “other” or will there be more trade and interaction with northern people?

Davos goes with Jon, he’s already mounted on the horse to leave when Jon says goodbye to Tormund, Gilly and Sam. But not to Ghost or his siblings. Come on! I’m mostly convinced that was the last scene of the last Starks together and that sucks ass.

I’m hoping the wildlings and northerners manage a more peaceful co-existence. At least for a little while.

2 hours ago, jade.black said:

They offered no explanation of how Arya managed the Night King sneak attack nor did they show anyone speaking to her about her monumental feat face to face.

She was actively avoiding that and practicing archery. It made perfect sense for her character to me. However much I wish she could heal enough to be able to relax and rejoice over this magnificent feat, to share that with her brothers and sisters in arms, I’m not sure that’s achievable.

[rmontro]

What becomes of the Night Watch now?  Is it still a thing, or is there no need for it now?  Does Sam get his head lopped off for failing to follow his vows (getting Gilly pregnant?).

[ImpinAintEasy]

Bittersweet ending is the bitterness of fans and the sweetness of their tears. 

Next week is going to fuck me up. Main characters are going to die in stupid and unsatisfying ways, but damn it if they didn’t try to warn us. 

Jon is a double dead man. He’s going to die next week. I’m totally prepared for it. Jaime is for sure a goner too. Those are my two favorite characters in the books. Gods I’m not ready!

[lucindabelle]

3 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

For all that Tyrion was quick to earlier call Jaime on knowing what Cersei is and still being taken in by her, he keeps doing it over and over too.  It was painful watching him try to reason with her like that's ever been possible.  That has never worked out for him.  Never.

Considering he tried the EXACT SAME LINE OF REASONING with her in season 7 to convince her to send armies and fell for it, what the fuck was he even thinking? I hoped he might somehow get her to think about other mothers and children and stall for time. Why would he even say "your reign is over?" a) it does not appear true and b) how did he THINK a proud woman would react?

2 hours ago, raven said:

I hated that Brienne slept with Jamie.  Hated it.  He has always been Cersei's lap dog and he used Brienne to try to feel better about himself.  Brienne standing there crying after him was awful and a disservice to the character.

Actually, no. In the BOOK, there are scenes where he clearly finds himself aroused thinking about her. It's actually clearer in books than on TV.

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

The episode title is THE LAST OF THE STARKS.

So yeah, even the TITLE is sexist. Because it means there won't be any new Starks because no male Starks to sire an heir, but hey, Sansa and Arya and Bran are all Starks and still alive.

1 hour ago, polyhymnia said:

Ugh. No way they have the resources or the ability to build that many ballista let alone mount them on Urine's ship let alone make them strong enough to tear through the other ships like paper. That was so friggin unbelievable that it took me out of the episode.

Oh god yes.

Those shiny new ships from... where, again?

Did they come off the ships to be mounted on the wall or did they just make that many?

And how did Cersei's people know to kidnap Missandei?

(I mean Cersei had met her but she wasn't there).

Did anyone drown?

Was that parley the entire army? Surely not?

[bijoux]

14 minutes ago, lucindabelle said:

Actually, no. In the BOOK, there are scenes where he clearly finds himself aroused thinking about her. It's actually clearer in books than on TV.

I think it's been plenty clear in the show as well. Maybe not so much the sexual part, but the smitten part for sure. Dude was mooning at her birthplace seasons ago for God's sake.

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, rmontro said:

GRRM has been saying for years that the end would be bittersweet, and I've always believed him.  This episode was mostly bitter.

The last half hour of this episode was unfiltered stupidity, by lazy ass  writers who are stealing money.

[Drumpf1737]

Dany should make Sansa her hand.  Sansa is well-versed in politics, vengeance and a desire to serve the people. Tyrion is not a "wartime consigliere", Sansa is cunning and she is thinking two steps ahead.  

Don't judge how rape survivors compartmentalize their pain. It's very presumptuous to do so. 

Sansa is acting like anyone who'd seen more than one monarch promise peace only to deliver more mayhem. 

I love the Cersei character!!! She's so unapologetically ruthless and power mad. 

Did anyone notice Ghost was hurt to hear Jon call Samwell his bff--that was a nice touch.

I kept waiting for Brienne to wander in and lop Bron's head off.

[Callaphera]

With all the characters that are getting short changed by the writing recently, I'd like to give props to my girl Cersei for keeping it smirky and evil-as-fuck and getting no better but no worse. 

Well, okay, Jon is still a clueless fool so there hasn't been much change there, either, but he gets no props after abandoning Ghost and ending up on the Westerosi Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals's Not Allowed to Adopt list.

[rmontro]

5 minutes ago, Drumpf1737 said:

Dany should make Sansa her hand.  Sansa is well-versed in politics, vengeance and a desire to serve the people. Tyrion is not a "wartime consigliere", Sansa is cunning and she is thinking two steps ahead.  

Do you think Sansa would have had the guts to walk up and talk to Qyburn like Tyrion did?  With all that weaponry trained on her?  I think not.

And before that, she complains that Dany wants to take the soldiers south.  Wasn't she complaining before about how there were too many mouths to feed?  Talk about damned if you do, damned if you don't.  Sounds like Sansa just wants to complain.

[Maximum Taco]

Gotta say I kind of loved the way Sansa and Jon's story ended up in this episode. 

The mirroring of Jon/Sansa and Lyanna/Ned is just perfect. The fact that each set of siblings makes a promise based around the same secret is heartbreaking and beautiful. 

Ned chooses to keep the promise, and Sansa to break it, but I think in the end they both do what they do because of love for their family. 

I'm very eager to see if Sansa's decision will continue to haunt her the way Ned's did him. 

I could actually see this exact same scenario unfolding in the books because of how perfectly it fits with Ned and Lyanna's story. 

"Promise me, Sansa..."

That also makes me wonder if these will be the last words Sansa ever hears from Jon. 

"Promise me, Sansa..."

Edited May 6, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[ImpinAintEasy]

Let’s say it does wind up with Jon as king, which totally will not happen, as he’s a goner, but if that is what happens? My god did they do a piss fucking poor job on him! Yes, let’s make the ultimate claimant to the throne a complete fucking idiot. Fans will love that! And it’s intentional! D&D call him slow. What purpose did that serve? 

[MadMouse]

If this is an attempt at a Mad Queen turn for Dany I'm not buying it all. You can try but she's been completely right about everything since landing in Westeros with the exception of believing in WW. Everytime she's listened to someone else she's suffered a defeat or lost someone dear to her.

Jon Snow proves how utter incompetent he would be as King. There was a reason Ned didn't say anything idiot. I did get the feeling that was the last time he's going to see WF. Oh and fuck him for not even petting Ghost.

Sansa continues to be horribly self centered. Jon trusts her with a secret and she breaks that trust almost immediately. Another thing Dany was right about btw. She's not Littlefinger but Littlebird now the transformation is complete.

Jaime loves Brienne but is a monster and knows it. He's left to save her and kill Cersei.. hopefully.

Like all of the episodes this season it feels super rushed and is very disappointing. After two years this the best they have?

Edited May 6, 2019 by MadMouse

[spaceghostess]

Well. That was nauseating.

Under other circumstances, Jon being dumb enough (and I'm one of the few people who hasn't thought he's stupid) to think for one minute that Sansa would keep that whopper of a secret under her cloak would be in my top three most upsetting things, but it's barely in the running after:

--Dany getting the whiplash Norma-Desmond-Crazy-AF edit

--Rhaegel being unceremoniously shot out of the sky by Urine, of all fuckfaces

--Missandei being gratuitously murdered.

Sadistically pulling out all the stops to push Dany over the edge is 100% gross, lazy storytelling. This right here smacks of how two of my most beloved shows, BTVS and Penny Dreadful, went off the rails in their final seasons. Massive bummer.

[ImpinAintEasy]

Dany is the best written character at this point, IMO. And her arc here seems absolutely straight from GRRM and has been built towards this. You can be upset about it, but it has been hinted at in the books and show. 

[Delete]

5 hours ago, stagmania said:

Good lord the sexist bullshit was rampant in this episode. Brienne has sex once and becomes a woman who begs after a man, Sansa is happy she went through rape and torture and manipulation because it made her Strong, Dany is a bad queen because she *gasp* expects people to respect her and recognize her authority. Just seriously ridiculous shit so obviously written by men. 

And if they expect me to get on board with team betray Danaerys they’re going about it all wrong. Girlfriend lost her army, lost her dragons, lost her two best friends to protect these people. She listened to the counsel of her advisors every time. And what does she get for it? Nothing but disrespect, distrust, treason and more losses. I’m officially on her side. 

And Missandei, poor Missandei. Used as a plot device to kick off a Mad Dany plot. She deserved so much better. 

Yes to every word you wrote. I wish I could heart your comment a thousand times.

[Oscirus]

So on rewatch:

Shouldn't Lyanna and EDD be dust? I know it's better dramatically, but it's a simple rule.

Why was that Bronn scene in there?  Episode is long enough without inserting comedy.

They forgot the iron fleet?  Did will smith go back in time and flash them cuz Im pretty sure they were accounted for last time.

For a show that likes wearing its feminist badge loud and proud, yall sure got off on having good guy Varys saying that Jon was the best ruler cuz he had a penis.

And the Sansa thing, I get that yall were trying to say ( her experiences made her who she is), but holy shit was that awkward. And why is she being so antagonistic towards Dany?  Good lord.

Lol Bendry. Awks

[Bill1978]

3 hours ago, Andromeda said:

I have a feeling the ending will be mostly unsatisfactory, except for Cersei getting her just desserts.

If Cersei doesn't get her just desserts I'm gonna riot. This episode proved to me that the final episodes are gonna be a slog. I was here for the White Waler drama not the politics. But that's all they have for the final episodes - political talk. The only thing that is keeping me tuning is the hope for a Cersei death and I guess to finally know who is the final person sitting on the throne. (Although I'm guessing there will be no true throne and Westeros will be like the British Commonwealth)

Shouldn't Lyanna and EDD be dust? I know it's better dramatically, but it's a simple rule.

Episode 3 ended with bodies just collapsing everywhere when the Night King died. So them being present is at least consistent with what was shown the previous episode.

Edited May 6, 2019 by Bill1978

[Bill1978]

...

Edited May 6, 2019 by Bill1978
Stuffed up quoting a previous post. Ignore this isn't the post you were looking for

[anamika]

2 hours ago, spaceghostess said:

Under other circumstances, Jon being dumb enough (and I'm one of the few people who hasn't thought he's stupid) to think for one minute that Sansa would keep that whopper of a secret under her cloak would be in my top three most upsetting things,

It's a testament to how much they have dumbed down Jon when even Dany knows Sansa better than him after meeting her for a few days.

[AshleyN]

Regarding Tyrion, I've been rather loudly criticizing how dumb he's been written for a few seasons now, but I think in this particular case it was less a matter of actually believing Cersei would surrender than throwing up a last minute Hail Mary in hopes of avoiding a slaughter from which no one would win.

[huahaha]

Tyrion is so bad at his job, I'm actually questioning whether he's a mole at this point. At the very least, he should've told Varys to beat it for turning on Dany. Now he's left a potential assassin as her trusted advisor. How much worse can you do?

[Haleth]

The episode started so well.  I laughed, I cried, I adored the character moments that we'd been looking for for years.  Farewell, Tormund, I raise a horn of ale to you.  

Then all hell breaks lose.  I couldn't understand why Dany didn't burn all Euron's ships, but I guess she was afraid of getting too close with just too many arrows pointed at her.  Farewell, Rhaegel, that was a shitty way to die.  (I'm guessing Drogon will die before the end too.  The dragons were hatched out of necessity-- magic arose to battle the NK.  Now that he's dead magic will fade from the world again.)

Someone asked how Euron knew Dany was coming?  No doubt Cersei has spies at White Harbor.

Jon is so going to die, right?  He has no dragon.  He sent away his direwolf.  He is the "problem" standing between Dany and the Iron Throne.  The convenient way to solve that problem is for him to die.  (Why didn't we get to see him tell Sansa and Arya about his parentage?  I yelled at the tv when the scene changed.)

And Jaime is so going to kill Cersei.  Good.  Maybe it will be like that famous scene in that famous book/movie where everyone gets a stab.

I never thought Emelia Clark was much of an actor, but the rage and madness she showed on her face at the very end was fantastic acting.

[stagmania]

8 hours ago, Glaze Crazy said:

I also get Sansa's desire to put the North first because it's her home, traditions and ancestry. She's also not wrong or conniving in the bigger picture, just focused on different concerns for the people she feels responsible for.  She also knows Cersei so she should be a little more accommodating to Danerys in her task of getting rid of that viper once and for all. I do think that spilling Jon's "secret" to Tyrion might come back to bite her once this is over. I don't think he wants the Iron Throne and won't be pressured into it either. I could see it driving him away from his family in the end.

Sansa has been so inconsistent on Cersei, it's maddening. Every other week she's changing her mind about whether people are stupid to leave her in the South or stupid to go after her. This whiplash has been present in pretty much all her opinions all season, which is what lends the impression that she just wants to bitch at everyone and feel superior.

8 hours ago, I-Kare said:

I'm honestly surprised a lot of folks seemed to have viewed the Jaime/Brienne scene so differently than I did. I thought it was obvious that he was intentionally pushing her away so that she didn't try to go with him or follow him, so he could go do what he thinks he has to do: go kill Cersei. Everything up to that point pointed toward that being the reality of the scene, at least to me. 

I'm not sure we did view it differently, but that is one of the most cliched tropes in romance writing and I absolutely hate it. Combine that with Brienne suddenly turning into a weeping widow and the scene was infuriating. 

7 hours ago, polyhymnia said:

Ugh. No way they have the resources or the ability to build that many ballista let alone mount them on Urine's ship let alone make them strong enough to tear through the other ships like paper. That was so friggin unbelievable that it took me out of the episode.

That drove me absolutely nuts. They're giving Euron the Ramsey super powers. 

6 hours ago, rmontro said:

But for seven seasons they've told us Daenerys was the Breaker of Chains, and was a tough but fair ruler.  They've spent all that time getting me on her side, as she overcame multiple odds.  Only now at the last hour to give us Crazy Daenerys and have all the characters tell us over and over she's going to be a lousy queen.  Her character deserved better than that.

4 hours ago, MadMouse said:

If this is an attempt at a Mad Queen turn for Dany I'm not buying it all. You can try but she's been completely right about everything since landing in Westeros with the exception of believing in WW. Everytime she's listened to someone else she's suffered a defeat or lost someone dear to her.

I completely agree with both of you and I think it's the common sentiment from fans after last night's episode. People are not buying this sudden push into the Mad Queen ending, and the plot machinations to get her there are too obvious and sloppy. If they wanted us to think Varys and Tyrion's treason talk was justified, they needed to show her refusing to listen or being wrong in her assessment of the situation even once this season. They seem to be hanging this entire thing on the Tarlys, and it's just too weak a justification.

6 hours ago, Andromeda said:

I have always admired Varys' desire to stand up for the little people, but how is thrusting the realm into yet another civil war any way to do that (Jon vs. Dany)? And saying they shouldn't wed because she's stronger than Jon? That tells me Varys prefers a ruler he can manipulate.

I also don't care for the idea that Dany is too...what? mean? unstable? Neither is true. Unable to be manipulated by Tyrion or Varys? I'll buy that. I really does smack of sexism in many ways -- she's a GIRL, we have to prefer the guy over the girl for the top job. Blech.

You nailed it. I've always thought Varys told himself he was doing what he does for the realm, but ultimately he has a power fetish and he wants to be in control. He can't manipulate Dany, therefore he's decided she's a bad ruler. It's extremely transparent.

6 hours ago, tv-talk said:

Unforgivable they didnt have a SINGLE WORD spoken between Jon, Sansa, and Arya after Bran revealed the lineage. That should have been one of best scenes in the entire series, the remaining Starks struggling with geopolitical tensions while  wanting to be family and it turns out one of them is King of the whole damn world- don't even see their faces when they find out.  Awful and reminds me of why it's such a shame the show superseded the books.

[snip]

So why does she instead plant a slow working poison into bloodstream of the very force headed to take out Cersei! She could have crippled Dany in the North and maybe won control of situation, instead she increased likelihood her own people would be slaughtered at KL.  Is there an unseen motivation here or does it simply not make any sense?

I have barely even processed that we didn't get to see any reaction from Sansa and Arya about Jon's parentage. The biggest secret in the realm and in their family, and nothing. And your second point just underlines that Sansa is really not a brilliant strategist like the show keeps telling us she is.

5 hours ago, ImpinAintEasy said:

I’m probably never going to get to read the ending in the books, but I do believe, thematically, the final 3 episodes will be George’s ending. It’s just a shame how they fucked up most of the characters by the time they reached this point. 

The problem is that the show wrote the characters and the story differently from the books for 7.5 seasons, and now they appear to be trying to tack on GRRM's ending without having done the work to get there. It's malpractice. 

[QuinnM]

2 minutes ago, Haleth said:

I never thought Emelia Clark was much of an actor, but the rage and madness she showed on her face at the very end was fantastic acting

I have seen a lot of the previous 7 seasons recently (there is someone catching up in the house).  I had forgotten how angry she has always been about anyone standing in her way. It is HER throne and she WILL take it back.