S08.E04: The Last of the Starks

[izabella]

1 hour ago, Scaeva said:

Jorah had it right in one of the earlier seasons when he told Daenerys, "Forgive me, Khaleesi, but your ancestor Aegon the Conqueror didn't seize six of the kingdoms because they were his right. He had no right to them. He seized them because he could."

Too bad Jorah didn't remind Dany of this before the battle.  The Kingdom of Dorne ended up with a special arrangement with Aegon the Conqueror where they could stay a separate Kingdom allied with Aegon.  Jorah could and should have suggested that same arrangement with the North now, and things would be smoother between Dany and Sansa/the North.  Surely the North, because they fought alongside Dany to save the world, it was ultimately a Northerner who killed the NK, and they are helping her get her IT,  earned their independence as well as whatever Dorne did back in the day to maintain theirs.

Dany's big mistake in all of this is thinking that the people of Westeros are her people and were clamoring for a Targaryan to return to the throne and would be so grateful for her return.   They aren't.  That was just stories her power hungry brother fed her and she believed. 

I wish Dany had spent a moment or two with Bran to ask about her family!!!  Here is someone who could tell her things, and she missed her chance to ask questions.  One of the things he probably could have told her was that it wasn't sunshine and roses in Westeros when the Targs were in power (it never is in Westeros!), and while there may not have been a big dragon war for the 300 years after Aegon conquered Westeros, that doesn't mean they loved the Targs nor that the Targs were good rulers nor that there weren't all kinds of other battles and murders during those years.  She would have known that her "destiny" was all in her mind.

Anyway, I am disappointed in this episode and in the way it seems the show is going at the end.  I knew better than to expect happy endings, but I thought there would be satisfying endings for some, and it really doesn't look like there will be any, except for Tormund, Sam & Gilly.   It is not satisfying to me that Sansa ends with so much damage that she will likely never have a fulfilling sexual relationship in her life, a lonely woman with no family and just a big castle to worry about.  It's not satisfying to me that Arya is only an assassin incapable of maintaining a love relationship because "that's not me" (anachronistic much?) and running around killing until she is eventually killed.   Bran's ending is not satisfying because we don't know shit about the TER, the NK, and the meaning behind all of it, and he is living "mostly in the past" for what that's worth.  It's not satisfying to me that Jon is pretty much a man without a family now that he actually knows who his parents were - he's giving up Ghost and his Northern life for what?  A woman he doesn't/can't be with now?  Jamie was fucking his sister all along, so his ending of going to die with her (whether he goes to protect or to kill Cersei) is relatively satisfying in that it couldn't end any other way for him, but he really shouldn't have broken Brienne before doing so.  Don't get me started on Cersei, Tyrion, and Varys and the ridiculous plot points that have put them where they are with a weakened Dany. 

I am really pissed that we spent what seemed like years at nasty Harrenhall, and with Ramsey Bolton torturing Theon, and we saw it all in excruciating detail, but now we are just rushing through to the end and leaping over major developments.  I mean, we spent a whole episode on shit and puke at the Citadel, and we didn't even see Jon telling Sansa and Arya about his parents.  Fuck you, show, fuck you!

Edited May 7, 2019 by izabella

[MrWhyt]

Just now, Bryce Lynch said:

Technically, Joffrey might not have a say.  But, I think he would have kicked and screamed until his mother and stepdad found him a new bride.    

He could have been a whiny little shit as much as he wanted, it would'd have made any difference. Robert would have slapped him silly, how dare he refuse the command of his father and king to marry the daughter of his oldest friend and ever scheming Cersei would have seen the value of joining one of the most important houses to hers. Remember the wedding was still a go until after the Battle of the Blackwater, which was well into Robb's rebellion.

[lorbeer]

10 hours ago, Andromeda said:

What blows me away is none of the (drunk) young men there were even attempting to chat her up or hit on her. Hello!! Do you SEE the hot, young awesomely dressed and coiffed female that is in front of you? The men of Essos had no trouble seeing it. What's with these Northmen anyway? Did their balls freeze off? It felt...ewwwy. Like they're all part of a schoolyard clique and hating on the new girl because she's "different."

I think they were afraid of her and afraid to hit on the queen. It was safer for them not to talk to her at all than to talk and say something inappropriate that could end badly for them. They also don't know her and don't care for her. They were told she's the queen so they must obey her but that's all. That night was about mouring the ones who died and celebrating the won war, it's kind of stuff you want to share with those you care about. But notice this no one was hitting on Sansa either. 😉 And Sansa is not foreign and different for them. They were both pretty much alone there.

1 hour ago, watchTV said:

If she goes mad queen in the next episode, it's understandable. I don't think she's mad as in crazy but mad as in angry. She lost two dragons (her children), Messandei, Jorah, all Dothrakis, a big chunk of unsullied and her ships. And she tried to reason with Cersei as advised. She may as well talked to a wall.

She has every reason to be angry, even people who don't like her have to agree on that. But I think that anger is one of the factors that drives her to being mad-mad. What I wonder is if she's always been mad-mad but didn't act this way. In the past she had 'means' to act generously and merciful. She had the time, the patience, the biggest army in the world and 3 dragons but less self-confidence. Now she doesn't want to wait, she's very inpatient, her army is residual and 2 dragons are dead. She's fixating on the iron throne thing so much she doesn't want to act smart she simply wants to act and she wants to do it as soon as possible. Propably she also wants to take iron throne before the word about Jon's heritage spreads out.

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I think Arya admires Daenerys but doesn't know whether she can trust her.

If I remember correctly Arayd actually said she didn't trust her or that they shouldn't trust her.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, MrWhyt said:

He could have been a whiny little shit as much as he wanted, it would'd have made any difference. Robert would have slapped him silly, how dare he refuse the command of his father and king to marry the daughter of his oldest friend and ever scheming Cersei would have seen the value of joining one of the most important houses to hers. Remember the wedding was still a go until after the Battle of the Blackwater, which was well into Robb's rebellion.

I guess we will never know.  I don't think Robert ever slapped him around (though Tyrion did) or did much parenting at all, which is part of the reason he turned out the way he did.  

[LadyChaos]

2 hours ago, Constantinople said:

*** Jon is legitimate only if Rhaegar's marriage to Lyanna Stark is valid. That marriage is only valid if the annulment of Rheagar and Elia's marriage is valid. But that annulment was granted in secret, and apparently without grounds. I have never heard of such a thing. Nor, given the importance placed on marriage alliances in this show, should it be permitted in the Seen Kingdoms. Secret, groundless annulments undermine aristocratic Westerosi society and put a question mark over the succession to every lordship.

But we appear to be stuck with secret, groundless annulments on the show.

But we're talking about Westeros not Earth.  Westeros, is a very sexist and set up against women. It is more likely that in Westeros, especially Dorne where we know they are more lax in laws about legitimacy marriage and divorce, that a man can get an annulment simply because they want one and without telling his spouse.  Given that their are2 eps left, I think arguing Jon's legitimacy is a waste of time.  In the show, they have not shown any reason where annulments or divorces are valid to set a precedence so it is unlikely they will introduce it now. 

There are many cultures in the world, where men can get an annulment or divorce without justification, and sometimes they are not even required to inform their spouse so their spouse goes on living, thinking their married, without a clue.

[Drogo]

4 minutes ago, TV Anonymous said:

I just drop in to express my astoundment on Daenarys' confronting Cersei at King's Landing gate. Quite literally, she and what army? She has what, around 2 cohorts of the Unsullieds and a dragon? Meanwhile Cersei has her troops fresh, protected and she has Golden Company reinforcement. Drogon? Look at all the ballistae atop every turret. 

Fingers crossed Drogon might have laid some fresh eggs while he was on sabbatical - have to imagine if he had, they'd be all growed up by now. 

For sure they'll need something incredible (or some extreme cunning) to outplay the Mad Queen Cersei. 

[Bryce Lynch]

10 hours ago, Andromeda said:

What blows me away is none of the (drunk) young men there were even attempting to chat her up or hit on her. Hello!! Do you SEE the hot, young awesomely dressed and coiffed female that is in front of you? The men of Essos had no trouble seeing it. What's with these Northmen anyway? Did their balls freeze off? It felt...ewwwy. Like they're all part of a schoolyard clique and hating on the new girl because she's "different."

Um, I think they all know she is spoken for by Jon Snow, and don't want to feel the pointy end of Longclaw.  

[LadyChaos]

1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Um, I think they all know she is spoken for by Jon Snow, and don't want to feel the pointy end of Longclaw.  

This and she was their Queen and a foreigner.  They likely were not comfortable approaching her.  Jon was clearly more approachable and relatable to them.

[lucindabelle]

3 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

This and she was their Queen and a foreigner.  They likely were not comfortable approaching her.  Jon was clearly more approachable and relatable to them.

Yeah but get a horny young man drunk enough and platinum blonde over there...

[Drogo]

Just now, lucindabelle said:

Yeah but get a horny young man drunk enough and platinum blonde over there...

Co-sign.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, Drogo said:

Fingers crossed Drogon might have laid some fresh eggs while he was on sabbatical - have to imagine if he had, they'd be all growed up by now. 

For sure they'll need something incredible (or some extreme cunning) to outplay the Mad Queen Cersei. 

I'd love to see some more dragons.  But don't forget, Arya is on her way to KL, to finally kill the Queen.  She and The Hound are probably gorging on pies at the Inn at the Crossroads, as we speak, to fuel up for Clegane Bowl and while deciding which face Arya is going to wear.    

There might not be a battle.  

[Nashville]

20 hours ago, voiceover said:

Best sports fan Twitter response to this ep:

"Dany blew a 3-dragon lead."

My first comment to somebody else upon the conclusion of The Long Night:

“You sure this is the last season?  Because they just cleared out a HELLUVA lotta room under their salary cap.”

19 hours ago, Love said:

I can truly see Jon, when all is said & done, going North & hanging with the Wildlings & Ghost.  I think he foreshadowed it when he told Tormund that Ghost belongs in the north, not the south.  Thinking about the dire wolf/Stark connection.

This, in fact, is what I would want to see as the closing scene of the show; a survivor Jon, sick of the Westeros politics and intrigue, trudging through the Wall’s gap to rejoin the Freefolk and the lifestyle which so tempted him before - and as he exits the gap, a healed Ghost coming out of the woods and joining him.  At which point Ghost turns, they both head north...

...and fade to black.

Dany could be with him too, if she finally came to grips with the notion of love being stronger than power.  Or not.  About Dany at the end, I don’t really give a shit.

18 hours ago, Lemuria said:

That's not exactly the way it went down.  Jon pointed out that they tried to get more and couldn't, including the Blackfish.  She says it's not enough men and he points out that it's all the men they have.  At that point, she just stands there and says nothing even though she knows there's an army on the way.  Jon would never have played it the way he did if he knew there was an army coming; he would have waited.  

Sansa was responsible ultimately for sending all those men who were fighting her cause to their deaths because, according to ST, she wanted to be the Hero of the Day and sweep in with the Vale army. 

I saw another possible motivation on the part of Sansa.  At the time, Sansa saw Jon - or, more specifically, Jon’s Wildling army - as constituting a threat to the people of the North.  By not allowing Jon the necessary information to factor the Vale army into his plans, Sansa guaranteed the Wildling army would be maximally committed - and suffer the maximum amount of casualties - before the Vale army’s arrival.

End result: Jon has a maximally weakened Wildling army, while Sansa has a larger and healthier Vale force - which, incidentally, also happens to be more loyal to her than to Jon.  And all it took was the sacrifice of a significant number of Wildling lives to service Sansa’s plan.  

Meet Cersei v2.0; not as slick as the old Cersei, but hey!  It’s now available in RED!

18 hours ago, millennium said:

Because it's too glaring an error to have been random, IMO.   Because ever since it became a meme I keep seeing/hearing Starbucks and Game of Thrones mentioned in the same breath.   Talk about product placement.

I see three possibilities:

1. Honest mistake by a crew member; next time don’t be rushing your people so hard between shots, Production, because shit will get missed.
2. Passive-aggressive ploy by an actor unsatisfied with their character’s progressing story line (no, Emilia, I did NOT specifically call out you....).
3. Product placement - somewhere there’s a grip driving a new Landrover.  Christof would be proud.

15 hours ago, Drogo said:

Hydrate or die.

Latte is coming....

13 hours ago, Athena5217 said:

Perhaps if Dany had followed Sansa’s suggestion to recuperate before going after Cersei, Rhaegal wouldn’t have been flying with a hole in his wing and have been able to evade some of Euron’s arrows. What does it say about Dany that she doesn’t think about the health of her beloved dragons before insisting they leave fo Kings Landing pronto?

IMHO blame for the failure of this exchange falls evenly upon Sansa and Daenerys alike:

• Daenerys, certainly, for sublimating the mortality of her subjects to her thirst for the Throne - these are living, breathing humans and creatures, not commodities to be shipped about on a whim.  Daenerys also has a BAD habit of assuming she always knows the best course of action, which leaves her advisers in the unenviable position of constantly being in reactive mode.
• In this situation, Sansa proves why she cannot be an effective upper-echelon leader - she cannot separate her personal emotions and biases from the position.  Upon a prospective Queen’s arrival at Winterfell, a true leader would have been focused upon building rapport; Sansa, in the other hand, let her (jealousy? envy? fear?) goad her into a parade of petty sniping , serving little purpose other than to denigrate Daenerys at every turn - and on more than one occasion making sure Daenerys was aware of it.  While this course of action may have been personally gratifying to Sansa in the short term, it is hardly politic - and its long-term consequences are soon obvious. Sansa eventually does present a point of strategic merit (resting the soldiers before proceeding to the Last Battle) - but Daenerys looks at Sansa, considers the source, and concludes this is simply another passive-aggressive denigration ploy.  End result: Daenerys dismisses an objectively valid point of strategy because Sansa has invested so much time and effort in sculpting an adversarial relationship; viewed through the lens Sansa has colored for herself, Dany cannot help but see the source as suspect.

[Bryce Lynch]

6 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

This and she was their Queen and a foreigner.  They likely were not comfortable approaching her.  Jon was clearly more approachable and relatable to them.

I think the people might have been reluctant to try to start a normal conversation with her because of her position and the fact that she was a foreigner.  

But the men were not trying to hook up with her because they knew she was Jon's. 

[lucindabelle]

3 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Co-sign.

And surely one of those horny young men would see her walking off alone and sidle up to her to say, lonesome sweetheart? I mean, there was an opportunity there.

[Lady Iris]

I just saw a clear 'in the light' pic of Ghost. He had an ear chewed off and got rehomed all in the same week. Poor Rhaegal got his ass handed to him but came through more or less ok then got horribly and violently taken down. I'm so sad right now.

[MrWhyt]

15 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I guess we will never know.  I don't think Robert ever slapped him around (though Tyrion did) or did much parenting at all, which is part of the reason he turned out the way he did.  

yeah Robert was a shit parent, but neither him nor Cersei would have put up with the embarrassment of un-betrothing Joffery and Sansa just because Joff had his panties in a twist. It was a political marriage not a love match, the feelings of the participants don't matter.

[TV Anonymous]

16 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Fingers crossed Drogon might have laid some fresh eggs while he was on sabbatical - have to imagine if he had, they'd be all growed up by now. 

Dragons are hermaphrodite now? Okay...

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, TV Anonymous said:

Dragons are hermaphrodite now? Okay...

Yeah, that is ridiculous.  In real life dragons....oh wait...  

[Chris24601]

2 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

You know, in war, innocent people die.

You know, when belligerents don’t try to minimize the number of innocent people they kill, they call that a war crime.

Dany is so focused on the trappings of the Throne and titles that she’s willing to burn innocents alive to get them. That’s never going to be an okay thing to do.

As has already been mentioned, Dorne has already declared for her. The North may not like it, but they’ve declared for her. The Vale, because of Sansa, has declared for her. The Iron Islands, retaken by Yara, have declared for her. The only living Baratheon will declare for her. There’s a power vacuum in the Reach and Lord Bronn would declare for her. It’s a small step down to the Riverlands where they could take back that land for Lord Edmure Tully or whoever is next in line.

As stated previously, The capitol’s only true industry is government. It doesn’t have the crop lands or other material resources to sustain itself. It relies on the taxes and resources of the rest of the Seven Kingdoms to support it. Choke that out (now that the existential crisis of the Night King has passed) and you don’t have to invade King’s Landing at all... it’ll just take longer.

Meanwhile, Euron’s fleet provides plenty of valid military targets (nighttime hit-and-runs with Drogon and covert raids like those Theon pulled in 8x01 being ideal) and further isolates the ability of the capitol to replenish itself.

* * * *

But Dany’s haste in wanting to crush Cersei ASAP got another dragon killed and now she’s in the same “lash out” mode she always gets into when she suffers a reversal... and Dany’s lash out mode always veers in the direction of war crimes and infliction of terror (see crucifying random members of a social group rather than seeking out those actually guity, see throwing a man whose guilt or innocence she didn’t care about to her dragons after the Harpies murdered Selmy, see her first instinct when the Masters launched a rebellion being to burn cities full of innocents to ash).

When D&D said Dany forgot about the Iron Fleet I didn’t take it to mean “Dur... who’s Euron?”, but rather that her single-minded focus on the Throne led her to not considering the ways the Iron Fleet could be a threat... like the idea that they could be fitted with upscaled Scorpions.

Basically the same single-minded focus that discounted waiting to hear from her actual commanders what sort of time they needed to get the troops reasonably prepared for a new campaign and to stop to figure out how fresh troops from a Dorne that had just declared for her can adjust the equation of war.

Both of those are legitimate reasons to hit pause. Yes, ceding the initiative can be a thing, but it’s not that big a deal when you’re the one on offense. Within reason, you’re always going to be the one who determines the time and place of engagement.

You’re talking about a fresh force of troops from a Kingdom as populous as the entire North on an opposing front to where Dany’s present forces were and the difference between your already half-strength forces fighting tired or fighting fresh.

That underlying desperation to seize the Throne (likely underscored by her fears that Jon could supplant her... which is probably why she wanted him off and away with the Northern troops marching south instead of ferrying them on her ships too... at half strength there would have been room) is why I can believe she “forgot” about the Iron Fleet and didn’t want to waste time with scouting ahead. The sooner she plants herself on the physical Iron Throne the more secure she is from anyone trying to use Jon to usurp her (basically the same “possession is 9/10 of the law” theory Cersei is employing in making herself queen).

* * * *

And that’s why crisping a whole bunch of innocents in an offensive push is looking more than acceptable to her now. Her situation keeps deteriorating and she doesn’t even have the best claim anymore.

Which is the whole point of dramatic storytelling... push your characters to the edge so we see who they really are. When Jon can’t get to Bran and all seems lost he’d rather stand up and square off against an undead dragon in a suicide battle than surrender. When faced with the undead coming out of the Crypts, Sansa and Tyrion first hide (prudent... can’t save anyone if you’re dead), check themselves (evaluate before acting... remember you have an obsidian knife) and then go out to try and protect the people in the crypts as best they can (unused footage showed their intent as they came out from behind the crypt was to fight the wights down there... which is why later shots showed Sansa and Tyrion in front of the other cowering civilians).

So Dany is being pushed to the edge to reveal what she truly values and believes in.

If she believes barbecuing innocents (including children) is okay so long as she gets to sit on the Throne then she’s proven that all she really values at the core is power and that doing it “for the people” is just her rationalization for it.

If she burns innocents alive just to gain power for herself, she’s not the hero of this story... she’s a villain (one with good publicity, but a villain none-the-less).

One thing I feel is worth remembering about the ending that’s coming is that GRRM felt so strongly about the unjustness of war that he registered and served as a conscientious objector. It’s no accident the series delves deep into the horrors of war... that the True King character is the one who’s only fought to defend and regularly makes peace with his enemies... that the most wise and level-headed advisor of them all is the one saying “a king who doesn’t defend his people is no king at all.”

That’s why Dany was always going to end up the villain. She is virtually the embodiment of everything he opposes; a conqueror who justifies their atrocities behind the claims of saving the people from their unjust rulers (see “Nation Building”).

Jon’s concern for the safety of his people (and being willing to make peace with his enemies), Sansa’s concern for the North, Arya and Sam’s concern for their families, Theon dying in defense of the family he’d wronged, Tyrion trying to minimize the violence and find a peaceful path... those are the heroic traits in opposition to all the villainous tyrants and conquerors of the series.

[lucindabelle]

2 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

yeah Robert was a shit parent, but neither him nor Cersei would have put up with the embarrassment of un-betrothing Joffery and Sansa just because Joff had his panties in a twist. It was a political marriage not a love match, the feelings of the participants don't matter.

We heard about Robert slapping Joffrey over his murder of a pregnant cat, I think in season one.

[LadyChaos]

4 minutes ago, Nashville said:

My first comment to somebody else upon the conclusion of The Long Night:

“You sure this is the last season?  Because they just cleared out a HELLUVA lotta room under their salary cap.”

This, in fact, is what I would want to see as the closing scene of the show; a survivor Jon, sick of the Westeros politics and intrigue, trudging through the Wall’s gap to rejoin the Freefolk and the lifestyle which so tempted him before - and as he exits the gap, a healed Ghost coming out of the woods and joining him.  At which point Ghost turns, they both head north...

...and fade to black.

Dany could be with him too, if she finally came to grips with the notion of love being stronger than power.  Or not.  About Dany at the end, I don’t really give a shit.

I saw another possible motivation on the part of Sansa.  At the time, Sansa saw Jon - or, more specifically, Jon’s Wildling army - as constituting a threat to the people of the North.  By not allowing Jon the necessary information to factor the Vale army into his plans, Sansa guaranteed the Wildling army would be maximally committed - and suffer the maximum amount of casualties - before the Vale army’s arrival.

End result: Jon has a maximally weakened Wildling army, while Sansa has a larger and healthier Vale force - which, incidentally, also happens to be more loyal to her than to Jon.  And all it took was the sacrifice of a significant number of Wildling lives to service Sansa’s plan.  

Meet Cersei v2.0; not as slick as the old Cersei, but hey!  It’s now available in RED!

I see three possibilities:

1. Honest mistake by a crew member; next time don’t be rushing your people so hard between shots, Production, because shit will get missed.
2. Passive-aggressive ploy by an actor unsatisfied with their character’s progressing story line (no, Emilia, I did NOT specifically call out you....).
3. Product placement - somewhere there’s a grip driving a new Landrover.  Christof would be proud.

Latte is coming....

IMHO blame for the failure of this exchange falls evenly upon Sansa and Daenerys alike:

• Daenerys, certainly, for sublimating the mortality of her subjects to her thirst for the Throne - these are living, breathing humans and creatures, not commodities to be shipped about on a whim.  Daenerys also has a BAD habit of assuming she always knows the best course of action, which leaves her advisers in the unenviable position of constantly being in reactive mode.
• In this situation, Sansa proves why she cannot be an effective upper-echelon leader - she cannot separate her personal emotions and biases from the position.  Upon a prospective Queen’s arrival at Winterfell, a true leader would have been focused upon building rapport; Sansa, in the other hand, let her (jealousy? envy? fear?) goad her into a parade of petty sniping , serving little purpose other than to denigrate Daenerys at every turn - and on more than one occasion making sure Daenerys was aware of it.  While this course of action may have been personally gratifying to Sansa in the short term, it is hardly politic - and its long-term consequences are soon obvious. Sansa eventually does present a point of strategic merit (resting the soldiers before proceeding to the Last Battle) - but Daenerys looks at Sansa, considers the source, and concludes this is simply another passive-aggressive denigration ploy.  End result: Daenerys dismisses an objectively valid point of strategy because Sansa has invested so much time and effort in sculpting an adversarial relationship; viewed through the lens Sansa has colored for herself, Dany cannot help but see the source as suspect.

A few points to add, is that I think Dany pushed for the move to take the throne because Jon refused to act as if he wasn't who he was.  She wants that throne,  NEEDS IT, her whole life is about that throne.  If Jon can take it away from her, simply by existing, then she needs to act fast and claim it before his identify explodes into the world like the Sept of Baylor from WildFire.  So Dany is thinking about that, and thinking about putting distance between her and Jon so she can distance her feelings from him. Its no small matter that Dany rode Drogon back to Dragonstone instead staying with the troops when she arrived at WinterFell by ship and with her army, next to Jon. 

Sansa also was hostile to her Queen, whether she wanted Dany in charge or not, she was.  Danerys could have has Sansa punished for her insolence but didn't.  I think Sansa knew she could get away with it because Dany wanted to make a good impression with everyone.  Now, Sansa better hope that Dany dies, or at least never takes the throne because by telling Tyrion and actively trying to undermine Dany's claim to the throne, if she does end up on the throne, Dany would be justified in trying Sansa for treason.

[Scaeva]

5 minutes ago, TV Anonymous said:

Dragons are hermaphrodite now? Okay...

They may be able to change their sex.

[millennium]

7 minutes ago, TV Anonymous said:

Dragons are hermaphrodite now? Okay...

The bearded dragons of Australia can be hermaphroditic.

https://allthatsinteresting.com/sequential-hermaphrodotism-sex-changing-animals

[Drogo]

8 minutes ago, TV Anonymous said:

Dragons are hermaphrodite now? Okay...

Not sure, let me consult WebMD for dragon sexual practices.  Hmm, it doesn't have a lot about dragons, but apparently I have fibromyalgia.

Since dragons are similar to reptiles they may have the ability to reproduce asexually via eggs that require no fertilization.  See: parthenogenesis.

[watchTV]

1 hour ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

It was a parley/diplomatic meeting and it’s considered pretty unsporting to murder someone under those circumstances. As weird as it sounds, there are rules about stuff like that even during a war. 

I would accept that if this wasn't Cersei. She has no honor. Why would she care about being a good sport? The writers are pushing the idea that Cersei has convinced her people that she's protecting them from Dany. This is why they enter the area of the red keep. They would be celebrating and hailing their queen protector.

[Meredith Quill]

Eh, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. Only a special kind of idiot stays in a city when they know there's a high chance it could be nuked in the not too distant future. GTFO or face the consequences.

With her final breath Missandei told Dany to light it up and she's not 'mad/crazy'. If Dany does just that, it's human nature not insanity. The unpleasant truth is the majority of people would want to reap vengeance in her situation no matter the cost. Example: How many people would let the world burn if it meant they could save a beloved child/lover/family member? Plenty, that's how many. Dany isn't thinking like a queen in this instance, she's thinking like a human being who's grieving and angry, it's a very human reaction if a drastic one.

The population has 3 choices; GTFO, Revolt against the true tyrant (clue: the one who blew up the Sept) or die. Up to them. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[QuinnM]

Just now, SilverStormm said:

The unpleasant truth is the majority of people would want to reap vengeance in her situation no matter the cost. Example: How many people would let the world burn if it meant they could save a beloved child/lover/family member? Plenty, that's how many. Dany isn't thinking like a queen in this instance, she's thinking like a human being who's grieving and angry, it's a very human reaction if a drastic one.

What if this meant burning your lover's sister?  Is Arya acceptable collateral damage?  Or is there where Jon vs Dany comes into play?

[Meredith Quill]

Just now, QuinnM said:

What if this meant burning your lover's sister?  Is Arya acceptable collateral damage?  Or is there where Jon vs Dany comes into play?

You're reckoning on Dany knowing Arya is there. How would she?

[proserpina65]

35 minutes ago, Nashville said:

She says it's not enough men and he points out that it's all the men they have.  At that point, she just stands there and says nothing even though she knows there's an army on the way.

She didn't know for sure that the Knights of the Vale were on the way.  She hoped they were, and probably should've told Jon about them, but she had enough doubts about Littlefinger to not be sure.

I'm not a particular fan of Sansa, and I wish she had kept her mouth shut about Jon being Aegon Targaryen, but I don't think she would've said anything if Tyrion hadn't admitted to being at least of little afraid of Dany.

[DigitalCount]

Just now, SilverStormm said:

Eh, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. Only a special kind of idiot stays in a city when they know there's a high chance it could be nuked in the not too distant future. GTFO or face the consequences.

With her final breath Missandei told Dany to light it up and she's not 'mad/crazy'. If Dany does just that, it's human nature not insanity. The unpleasant truth is the majority of people would want to reap vengeance in her situation no matter the cost. Example: How many people would let the world burn if it meant they could save a beloved child/lover/family member? Plenty, that's how many. Dany isn't thinking like a queen in this instance, she's thinking like a human being who's grieving and angry, it's a very human reaction if a drastic one.

The population has 3 choices; GTFO, Revolt against the true tyrant (clue: the one who blew up the Sept) or die. Up to them. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I mean, those three options might not be options for a large section of the population. Lots of them might not even know why the Sept blew up, even if they have suspicions. Even if they do, it's almost winter and people might have medical conditions that make it harder to hop up and move when you want to. 

[Meredith Quill]

Just now, DigitalCount said:

I mean, those three options might not be options for a large section of the population. Lots of them might not even know why the Sept blew up, even if they have suspicions. Even if they do, it's almost winter and people might have medical conditions that make it harder to hop up and move when you want to. 

That'd be a very small % and one assumes most of those have family/friends to help them. Winter is better than certain death wouldn't you agree?

[proserpina65]

32 minutes ago, TV Anonymous said:

Dragons are hermaphrodite now? Okay...

Well, if we want any hope of more, they'd have to be.

[Andromeda]

8 hours ago, LadyChaos said:

Dany agreed to help the North, about 1 second before Jon bent the knee.  She literally said she would help the North, and he followed it by bending the knee.

To be fair, though, it was after she flew her dragons all the way up north to rescue Jon and his team, showing her commitment to helping him with his "northern problem." So she made the decision several days in advance, just letting him know once he woke up.

[LadyChaos]

8 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

You know, when belligerents don’t try to minimize the number of innocent people they kill, they call that a war crime.

Dany is so focused on the trappings of the Throne and titles that she’s willing to burn innocents alive to get them. That’s never going to be an okay thing to do.

As has already been mentioned, Dorne has already declared for her. The North may not like it, but they’ve declared for her. The Vale, because of Sansa, has declared for her. The Iron Islands, retaken by Yara, have declared for her. The only living Baratheon will declare for her. There’s a power vacuum in the Reach and Lord Bronn would declare for her. It’s a small step down to the Riverlands where they could take back that land for Lord Edmure Tully or whoever is next in line.

As stated previously, The capitol’s only true industry is government. It doesn’t have the crop lands or other material resources to sustain itself. It relies on the taxes and resources of the rest of the Seven Kingdoms to support it. Choke that out (now that the existential crisis of the Night King has passed) and you don’t have to invade King’s Landing at all... it’ll just take longer.

Meanwhile, Euron’s fleet provides plenty of valid military targets (nighttime hit-and-runs with Drogon and covert raids like those Theon pulled in 8x01 being ideal) and further isolates the ability of the capitol to replenish itself.

* * * *

But Dany’s haste in wanting to crush Cersei ASAP got another dragon killed and now she’s in the same “lash out” mode she always gets into when she suffers a reversal... and Dany’s lash out mode always veers in the direction of war crimes and infliction of terror (see crucifying random members of a social group rather than seeking out those actually guity, see throwing a man whose guilt or innocence she didn’t care about to her dragons after the Harpies murdered Selmy, see her first instinct when the Masters launched a rebellion being to burn cities full of innocents to ash).

When D&D said Dany forgot about the Iron Fleet I didn’t take it to mean “Dur... who’s Euron?”, but rather that her single-minded focus on the Throne led her to not considering the ways the Iron Fleet could be a threat... like the idea that they could be fitted with upscaled Scorpions.

Basically the same single-minded focus that discounted waiting to hear from her actual commanders what sort of time they needed to get the troops reasonably prepared for a new campaign and to stop to figure out how fresh troops from a Dorne that had just declared for her can adjust the equation of war.

Both of those are legitimate reasons to hit pause. Yes, ceding the initiative can be a thing, but it’s not that big a deal when you’re the one on offense. Within reason, you’re always going to be the one who determines the time and place of engagement.

You’re talking about a fresh force of troops from a Kingdom as populous as the entire North on an opposing front to where Dany’s present forces were and the difference between your already half-strength forces fighting tired or fighting fresh.

That underlying desperation to seize the Throne (likely underscored by her fears that Jon could supplant her... which is probably why she wanted him off and away with the Northern troops marching south instead of ferrying them on her ships too... at half strength there would have been room) is why I can believe she “forgot” about the Iron Fleet and didn’t want to waste time with scouting ahead. The sooner she plants herself on the physical Iron Throne the more secure she is from anyone trying to use Jon to usurp her (basically the same “possession is 9/10 of the law” theory Cersei is employing in making herself queen).

* * * *

And that’s why crisping a whole bunch of innocents in an offensive push is looking more than acceptable to her now. Her situation keeps deteriorating and she doesn’t even have the best claim anymore.

Which is the whole point of dramatic storytelling... push your characters to the edge so we see who they really are. When Jon can’t get to Bran and all seems lost he’d rather stand up and square off against an undead dragon in a suicide battle than surrender. When faced with the undead coming out of the Crypts, Sansa and Tyrion first hide (prudent... can’t save anyone if you’re dead), check themselves (evaluate before acting... remember you have an obsidian knife) and then go out to try and protect the people in the crypts as best they can (unused footage showed their intent as they came out from behind the crypt was to fight the wights down there... which is why later shots showed Sansa and Tyrion in front of the other cowering civilians).

So Dany is being pushed to the edge to reveal what she truly values and believes in.

If she believes barbecuing innocents (including children) is okay so long as she gets to sit on the Throne then she’s proven that all she really values at the core is power and that doing it “for the people” is just her rationalization for it.

If she burns innocents alive just to gain power for herself, she’s not the hero of this story... she’s a villain (one with good publicity, but a villain none-the-less).

One thing I feel is worth remembering about the ending that’s coming is that GRRM felt so strongly about the unjustness of war that he registered and served as a conscientious objector. It’s no accident the series delves deep into the horrors of war... that the True King character is the one who’s only fought to defend and regularly makes peace with his enemies... that the most wise and level-headed advisor of them all is the one saying “a king who doesn’t defend his people is no king at all.”

That’s why Dany was always going to end up the villain. She is virtually the embodiment of everything he opposes; a conqueror who justifies their atrocities behind the claims of saving the people from their unjust rulers (see “Nation Building”).

Jon’s concern for the safety of his people (and being willing to make peace with his enemies), Sansa’s concern for the North, Arya and Sam’s concern for their families, Theon dying in defense of the family he’d wronged, Tyrion trying to minimize the violence and find a peaceful path... those are the heroic traits in opposition to all the villainous tyrants and conquerors of the series.

The thing is.....if you remember in s1, when Dany saved the witch that ultimately killed her unborn child and Drogo.  The woman told 'You saved me? My village is burned to the ground, my temple destroyed, and I'd already been raped 3 times before you saved me. you didn't save me because there is no life left for me to live' (paraphrasing for sure)..... If you think about it.  Dany saved those women, because she was disgusted by the rape, and it made her feel better to save them. Except she didn't think about what quality of life they would have after being saved. Just like with saving Drogo, she couldn't bare to live without him, and she was almost going to keep him alive in his state of undead because she wanted him with her.  She 'saves' people, without considering the quality of life of it people want to live the life she is saving them for. Yes, her trek through the free cities and freeing slaves was a great thing.  However in Maureen we saw the same issue.  She freed the slaves......but now then they were homeless, living in tents, and fighting for food in mess tents.  It was so bad that she had former slaves coming to her, asking to be allowed to return to servitude so they could have a place to sleep and eat without risk of dying.  Its how the Harpies were able to gain a foothold,  they were giving former slaves food and money rise against her.  That wouldn't have been able to happen if she thought past freeing people, and thought more about the quality of life her people had. Then later we learned that after she freed Astapor and Yunkai, the slavers took back over because she needed to keep moving towards that throne instead of stopping for minute to see what she was leaving in her wake.  

Do you think the slaves in Yukai loved and appreciated her when she freed them, left them there vulnerable, and then they were re-subjugated? Even after she returned to Maureen, she handed the reins over to the Second Sons, whose leader point blank valued things like fighting pits, and who outright stated he didn't give a shit about the people. 

I will say this too, everyone saying that Dany used every option in her book to avoid mass slaughter of innocents, so she is justified Dracerys-ing everyone .........remember s3? When she was cunning and used covert tactics like sneaking Grewworm and Jorrah in the city so they could convince the slaves to turn on the masters and armed them?  When she reeled the Masters into a trap so she could use their own slaves against them?  There are other options, she just wants that throne so bad, she is not willing to wait to consider it.  Cersei has had time to prepare the Red Keep for direct onslaught by land and air.  So Dany needs to reach into her bag of tricks and remember how to fight when she was at the disadvantage again.  She is ideally equipped to doing so to.  Arya, Varys, and Tyrion probably know the Keep better than anyone, even Cersei. 

[Meredith Quill]

I mean the alternative is what, a siege. One of those things where food and resources quickly dwindle to nil. Who do you imagine will suffer and die of starvation first in a siege? The smallfolk; the weak, the young, the old. And that's just first. Therefore, a siege isn't the answer either.

You're Dany, Tyrion, Varys, Jon - So what is the answer? How do we remove Cersei from power without any collateral damage?

[Scaeva]

18 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

Eh, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. Only a special kind of idiot stays in a city when they know there's a high chance it could be nuked in the not too distant future. GTFO or face the consequences.

With her final breath Missandei told Dany to light it up and she's not 'mad/crazy'. If Dany does just that, it's human nature not insanity. The unpleasant truth is the majority of people would want to reap vengeance in her situation no matter the cost. Example: How many people would let the world burn if it meant they could save a beloved child/lover/family member? Plenty, that's how many. Dany isn't thinking like a queen in this instance, she's thinking like a human being who's grieving and angry, it's a very human reaction if a drastic one.

The population has 3 choices; GTFO, Revolt against the true tyrant (clue: the one who blew up the Sept) or die. Up to them. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

They don't live in a modern, Western democracy. They live under the rule of an absolute monarchy. They don't have the choice to pack up their bags and leave, and even if the city were not under siege and they could leave, a great many are probably without the means to do so. Most live in abject poverty, with slums like Fleabottom akin to some of the poorest places in the Third World.

If Daenerys burns King's Landing she's not torching a foreign city. She's burning her own capital, along with potentially hundreds of thousands of her own subjects, if she is the rightful queen of Western as she claims. At that point she's come to Westeros not as a liberator, but a conqueror who is willing to butcher many thousands of her own people just to wear a fancy hat.

Varys, Tyrion, & Jon would all be entirely justified in abandoning her. She's no longer breaking any wheels, she'd be revealing herself to be a yet another blood-drenched Targaryen tyrant in a centuries long list of them. She'd arguably be worse than the Mad King, since he failed in his attempt to reduce his own people to cinders.

Dany is one of my favorite characters in the series and I'd love to see her survive and sit on the Iron Throne, but if she orders King's Landing destroyed, she's nothing more than a genocidal tyrant who deserves an Ides of March.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Scaeva

[Meredith Quill]

4 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

Arya, Varys, and Tyrion probably know the Keep better than anyone, even Cersei. 

Arya is close-lipped aka of zero use to Dany. This begs the question, why hasn't Tyrion or Varys suggested this precise tactic then?? That's right, because the writers don't want an acceptable solution, they want bad, mad kween Dany. 

[VCRTracking]

[proserpina65]

10 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

That'd be a very small % and one assumes most of those have family/friends to help them. Winter is better than certain death wouldn't you agree?

I'd say most of the population of Kings Landing would rather stay with the devil they know rather than a foreign conqueror, which is how Dany has been portrayed to them.

[Meredith Quill]

1 minute ago, Scaeva said:

They don't live in a modern, Western democracy. They live under the rule of an absolute monarchy. They don't have the choice to pack up their bags and leave, and even if the city were not under siege and they could leave, a great many are probably without the means to do so.

Untrue, the population are not prisoners and have no reason to fear leaving that the show has given. They only need 2 legs to leave and escape certain death. Everything else is dressing.

2 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

I'd say most of the population of Kings Landing would rather stay with the devil they know rather than a foreign conqueror, which is how Dany has been portrayed to them.

No-one says they have to go to Dany. Go to the countryside, go to Dorne, go to anywhere that isn't King's Landing basically. Just GTFO asap. Evacuate!

[Scaeva]

1 minute ago, SilverStormm said:

Untrue, the population are not prisoners and have no reason to fear leaving that the show has given. They only need 2 legs to leave and escape certain death. Everything else is dressing.

But they are prisoners. Does Cersei strike you as the type to allow people to leave the city and praise Daenerys as their queen? From Cersei's POV they owe her fealty as their rightful queen.

Opening the gates of a city under siege also risks the enemy trying to force it's way in.

[Drogo]

Just now, SilverStormm said:

You're Dany, Tyrion, Varys, Jon - So what is the answer? How do we remove Cersei from power without any collateral damage?

Send Bronn back to KL with Tyrion's dead body (and a new mission.)

Highgarden's nice this time of year.

[Bannon]

10 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

Arya is close-lipped aka of zero use to Dany. This begs the question, why hasn't Tyrion or Varys suggested this precise tactic then?? That's right, because the writers don't want an acceptable solution, they want bad, mad kween Dany. 

I know I'm repeating myself, but it is just so ridiculously lazy to write a story this way. HBO needed, about 4 years ago, to tell these two that what they had wasn't good enough, and to try again.

[Meredith Quill]

Just now, Scaeva said:

But they are prisoners. Does Cersei strike you as the type to allow people to leave the city and praise Daenerys as their queen? From Cersei's POV they owe her fealty as their rightful queen.

Opening the gates of a city under siege also risks the enemy trying to force it's way in.

It isn't about what Cersei strikes me or anyone else as. Going by what we've been shown, the fact is they are free to leave. Currently, KL is not under siege.

[LadyChaos]

9 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

Untrue, the population are not prisoners and have no reason to fear leaving that the show has given. They only need 2 legs to leave and escape certain death. Everything else is dressing.

except you missed the part where the other poster also said they likely lack the means to leave.  These are poor people, who often go hungry more than not.  People like Davos, who as a child grew up eating a one bowl of brown a day, and pretending the lumps in it are meat....and knowing their not. People like Gendry, tradesmen like blacksmiths, are probably forced to work for the Crown creating weapons and actually are not allowed to leave.  We saw what kind of people make up the bulk of KL when Margaery would walk the streets.  Its people starving and barely surviving in the streets.  Those kind of people can't afford to leave, they have no money or assets. They would never survive long enough to find another place to live and work.  Davos only was able to leave because he became a thief and then a smuggler. 

Edited May 7, 2019 by LadyChaos

[izabella]

4 minutes ago, Scaeva said:

But they are prisoners. Does Cersei strike you as the type to allow people to leave the city and praise Daenerys as their queen? From Cersei's POV they owe her fealty as their rightful queen.

Opening the gates of a city under siege also risks the enemy trying to force it's way in.

The gates are open right now now, or were until the very minute Euron attacked Dany, so that anyone in Westeros could come in to seek protection from a Dragon Queen who breathes fire.  So they could have left just as well as come in.  But Cersei has told them they will burn and they believed her.

Edited May 7, 2019 by izabella

[Scaeva]

1 minute ago, SilverStormm said:

It isn't about what Cersei strikes me or anyone else as. Going by what we've been shown, the fact is they are free to leave. Currently, KL is not under siege.

KL *is* under siege. That's what Daenerys' and Jon's forces are doing at King's Landing.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Scaeva

[Meredith Quill]

1 minute ago, LadyChaos said:

except you missed the part where the other poster also said they likely lack the means to leave.  These are poor people, who often go hungry more than not.  People Davos as a child who grew up eating a one bowl of brown a day, and pretending the lumps in it are meat....and knowing their not. People like Gendry, tradesmen like blacksmiths, are probably forced to work for the Crown creating weapons and actually are not allowed to leave.  We saw what kind of people make up the bulk of KL when Margaery would walk the streets.  Its people starving and barely surviving in the streets.  Those kind of people can't afford to leave, they have no money or assets. They would never survive long enough to find another place to live and work.  Davos only was able to leave because he became a thief and then a smuggler. 

This is just semantics. Leave or def die, it's an easy choice - legs are all that's required.

Just now, Scaeva said:

KL *is* under siege. That's what Daenerys' and Jon's forces are doing at King's Landing.

Nope, not yet. Jon hasn't arrived yet, unless you've seen episode 5 already? Dany was there to parley only. If that was a siege force, she's fucked lol.

[Shimmergloom]

On 5/6/2019 at 1:35 PM, Bryce Lynch said:

If she had gone against him, told the truth and called him a liar that would have been a whole different ballgame.  

This argument has been going on for years, but if Sansa really wanted to take Joffery's side why didn't she just say he was telling the truth?  That's what she's suppose to do.  Always take the side of her betrothed.  By saying she didn't remember she is in effect saying he is not telling the truth, but I'm not going to say that out loud.  It appears to have worked, because Robert knew the real dead with what was up and took that opportunity to try and deflate the situation as much as possible.  He is even telling everyone that Joffery is lying by telling Ned that he was going to punish Joffery and Ned would punish Arya. 

And you're assuming alot in thinking it would have made everything ok for her to say Joffery was lying.  Like Ned and everyone would have just been able to go back to Winterfell without incident.

That whole court was a sham.  The butcher's boy was already killed no matter what had happened for one thing.  There was no good way out of what was happening.  Only differing tiers of bad.

So what more do you really want from the situation?  Robert admitted already as it was that Joffery was lying.  It didn't change anything.

[Affogato]

12 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

Untrue, the population are not prisoners and have no reason to fear leaving that the show has given. They only need 2 legs to leave and escape certain death. Everything else is dressing.

In the US people stay in badly flooding areas during hurricanes because they can’t afford to go anywhere. Many people do not have families or money in reserve or cars/wagons .

. Winter is coming. Are they to claim land and start to build a house and plant crops, and many of them not farmers but people who sell wares on the street? How well will that go?And what is to stop them feom sufferring the fate of the Hound’s friends? In the aftermath of the end of the tyrells and other houses the roads are full of bandits.