S08.E01: Winterfell

[Traveller519]

6 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

But they would have  been unified under the leader they chose wouldn't they? Daenerys had agreed so she and her army would have been there as alliances of the North instead of Daenerys being there as the North's not chosen ruler.

The reason I say Jon lied is that to me he misrepresented the truth. He made it sound like but for him bending the knee, they wouldn't have Daenerys, her Dothraki and dragons to save the North.

In re-watching Season 7, I got the impression that Jon (right and honorable Jon) felt that he owed it to Daenerys to bed the knee after her rescue mission. He saw the potential of her as a leader in that moment, and saw it as something he could never be. I truly believe Jon doesn't want to be Lord of Winterfell or King in the North, he really just wants to fight the Night King and then help keep order. He has no desire for the politics or administrative responsibilities of ruling, in any scope.

Of course the fact that the Queen he has deferred to is insanely beautiful and also finds him appealing turned out to be a nice little bonus. Even if her pets/kids won't leave the room when they're trying to have some fun together.

[LadyChaos]

2 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

 Jon has been telling Sansa since they reunited just what the stakes are and she still doesn't seem to believe him. 

Jon didn't head south to work on his tan. He went to make alliances and bring support to their war effort. In return he's got Sansa undermining him at every turn rather than offering her support (at least in public). Sansa isn't with Jon for the benefit of their people. She's in conflict with him over preserving her power and influence. 

2 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

She did obey him in public.  She only challenged him in private.

What more could Sansa have done to support Jon?  The North had the mind of their own.  She was more of their manager/administrator than their ruler.  I mean everyone knew an ice zombies apocalypse was coming but a house still refused to come to Winterfell.😄

The thing is, they knew from the very beginning that was why he went.  They knew it was possible that he would bend the knee to get Dragonglass and an army to defeat the white walkers.  This wasn't news.  Sansa openly snarled at him about it until he said he was leaving her in charge. Then it was, well in that case.....  Then while he was gone, she didn't continue to support him in front of the Lord and Ladies of the North. Arya even called her on that. Now that he is back, she is back to being nasty to him in front of others.  She is the Lady of Winterfell, and therefore should lead by example.  If she lashes out, publicly, then others will think it is okay too.  There is a difference between allowed to respectfully disagree with someone, and openly being hostile.  Sansa is openly hostile and Jon called her on it, she told him he was like Joffery.

2 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I don't get where people get the idea that Dany is so selfish.  She could have taken the Iron Throne years ago, but she hung around in Esos to make sure the slaves she freed stayed free and held off attacking King's Landing because she didn't want to kill hundreds of thousands of people and be the Queen of the Ashes.   

She is arrogant, a bit kill crazy, and thinks it her way or no way.  That doesn't make her selfish.  

2 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Sansa spoke in a very disrespectful tone when she complained about not having planned to feed the troops and the dragons, in front a a hall full of people.  

The thing is, JON LEFT TO MAKE ALLIES with Dany. To bring dragon glass and hopefully an army. Which he stated publicly to everyone in the Great Hall. Therefore Sansa's argument is invalid, because she knew all along this was a possibility. 

1 hour ago, nilyank said:

I think Dany arrived at WF as the Queen of the Seven Kingdom. When she goes to meet Sansa, she warmly greets her like the sister of her new boyfriend. But Sansa gave her the side eye and Dany retreated back to her detached Queen persona. 

So while Queen Dany expects respect from Sansa; Jon's girlfriend wanted his sister to like her.

I can agree with this. I think she knew she would have to try to get along with Sansa and as soon as Sansa slammed her down, she was like 'Alright...I got you, it'll be like that I see.' Dragons eat whatever they want....which can include you.

1 hour ago, Constantinople said:

Janos Slynt is executed by Jon after defying Jon's authority, merely because Janos wouldn't accept some crappy assignment.

Randyll Tarly and Dickon Tarly are executed by Daenerys after defying her authority. Randyll and Dickon took up arms against Daenerys and her allies, were given a chance to repent and refused.

Yet Jon is lauded and Daenerys is hated

Just because Sam is likable, doesn't make Daenerys a monster or Jon some great guy.

The difference is, is that Janos swore an oath to the Night's Watch to obey the Night's Commander and broke that oath knowing that the penalty was death. 

Randyll Tarly swore no alliagance to Dany, so therefore committed no treason.  Tarly had sworn alliagance to the crown, which is on Cersei's head. If he had not gone to battle against Dany, then it would have been treason.  Dany could have listened to Tyrion, she could have done anything other then what she did. Her actions have consequences, whether she likes it or not. That day she gained new followers by the Tarly soldiers, not because they revere her, but because they fear her.  

Jesus, even Cersei had the sense to through Ned in prison for a few days instead of lobbing his head off right away. A few days in a cell, like Tyrion suggested, probably would have gotten him to change his tune.

1 hour ago, MVFrostsMyPie said:

I feel icky about the shipping of Arya and Gendry. How old are either of them supposed to be? I get that this is in the era of when incest apparently was okay and so were child brides, but he seems more like an older brother, and I still see Arya as a girl.

Gendry and Arya are 5 years apart.  Right now she is 18, and he is 22.  Hardly child bride material. 

Bonus point* as for the Auntie and Nephew bumping uglies. I don't think the masses will care. They will care that Jon is a legit Targ, but not about incest IMO.  Targs were rulers for 300 years before Roberts rebellion.  Even that aside. The family trees in alot of the great house, don't fork at all the branches.  The Targs, Lannisters, and Baratheons intermarried so much, they might as well be one tree. Including 2 instances of Niece/Nephew Aunt/Uncle marriages.  

[comanick]

8 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

She hasn't earned anything with the Northerns yet and that is what I am talking about.

Just because she earned the respect of the Dothraki and Unsullied doesn't mean that she should automatically be given respect from the Northerns.

But thats the thing. She should already have earned a certain amount of respect with the north. There are 6 other kingdoms in the north. Which of them has come to help the north in their desperate time of need. Zero. The wall/north has been sending ravens since season 1 about the treat to some capacity. no one but stannis even gave it a second thought.  Its the foreign invader thats come to help you. Does that decision in and of itself garner no respect? Really?

[go4luca]

8 effing years waiting for this scene but it was everything.  Loved the location, that they were alone and how it was realized.  Ominous words by Arya for Jon not to forget he's a Stark.

[LadyChaos]

32 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

The reason I say Jon lied is that to me he misrepresented the truth. He made it sound like but for him bending the knee, they wouldn't have Daenerys, her Dothraki and dragons to save the North.

IDK....did you see Jon's face when Sam asked him if Dany would have bent the knee if the situation was reversed?

Jon is in love with Dany, so he wants to believe she would do the right thing.....but I think he can't quite forget that Dany took his ship and weapons away from him, and refused to let him leave when he didn't initially bend the knee after she demanded it. 

Even though she said she would fight with the North, I think deep down, Jon wonders if she wouldn't turn on him the minute, the war was over.  Dany's army would be in perfect position to destroy the North after the AotD was gone, and they would have had time to acclimate to the North.  Im not saying she would, just that he might be wondering if she would have if he had not bent the knee.

Jon loves Dany and he wants to believe she would do the right thing, but I think part of him doubts what kind of person she really is. 

Edited April 15, 2019 by LadyChaos

[ulkis]

10 hours ago, MissLucas said:

Not impressed by the Fuchur-montage. 

I'm dumb, which part was this?

[LadyChaos]

3 minutes ago, go4luca said:

8 effing years waiting for this scene but it was everything.  Loved the location, that they were alone and how it was realized.  Ominous words by Arya for Jon not to forget he's a Stark.

I hope Jon remembers the advice he gave Theon.

Jon is a Stark and a Targaeryen, he doesn't have to choose.

[Constantinople]

22 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

Randyll Tarly swore no alliagance to Dany, so therefore committed no treason.  Tarly had sworn alliagance to the crown, which is on Cersei's head. If he had not gone to battle against Dany, then it would have been treason.  Dany could have listened to Tyrion, she could have done anything other then what she did. Her actions have consequences, whether she likes it or not. That day she gained new followers by the Tarly soldiers, not because they revere her, but because they fear her.  

Jesus, even Cersei had the sense to through Ned in prison for a few days instead of lobbing his head off right away. A few days in a cell, like Tyrion suggested, probably would have gotten him to change his tune.

The Tarlys are bannermen of House Tyrell, who swore their allegiance to the Targaryens (oddly enough, Randyll fought on behalf of Danerys's father during Robert's Rebellion, but the inconsistencies of his behavior are another issue).

A crown is on Cersei's head because she placed it there.  That puts Tarly under no obligation to serve Cersei

Cersei didn't want to execute Ned because, at that time, she was trying to prevent a war.  However, when Daenerys executed Randyll Tarly, there was no war to prevent.

And I wouldn't follow Tyrion's suggestions from last season.  Almost all of them, if not all of them, were wrong.  Even Sansa knows Tyrion's sister better than Tyrion does.

[go4luca]

This moment.  As soon as I saw Ned Umber's eyes open.  😱

[DarkRaichu]

2 minutes ago, go4luca said:

This moment.  As soon as I saw Ned Umber's eyes open.  😱

I know right? And I was watching with my good noise reduction over the head headphones on 😄 😄 😄

[MissLucas]

25 minutes ago, ulkis said:

I'm dumb, which part was this?

My bad, of course Fuchur would not have made it through translation. Ahem, apparently it's Falcor (i.e. the dragon from the Neverending Story). 

Edited April 15, 2019 by MissLucas

[LadyChaos]

6 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

The Tarlys are bannermen of House Tyrell, who swore their allegiance to the Targaryens (oddly enough, Randyll fought on behalf of Danerys's father during Robert's Rebellion, but the inconsistencies of his behavior are another issue).

A crown is on Cersei's head because she placed it there.  That puts Tarly under no obligation to serve Cersei

Cersei didn't want to execute Ned because, at that time, she was trying to prevent a war.  However, when Daenerys executed Randyll Tarly, there was no war to prevent.

And I wouldn't follow Tyrion's suggestions from last season.  Almost all of them, if not all of them, were wrong.  Even Sansa knows Tyrion's sister better than Tyrion does.

Tarly's were bannerman to the Tyrells, who already forfeited rights to their lands and titles if Cersei won, Tarly was reminded that he also swore alliagience to the crown, so he was given a choice follow the Tyrells who were wanted for treason or honor his oath to the crown.

Your right Cersei didn't execute Ned, her son did.  Cersei was smart enough to know that throwing Ned into a cell would be enough.  Joffery didn't listen to her. 

[Bryce Lynch]

11 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

The Tarlys are bannermen of House Tyrell, who swore their allegiance to the Targaryens (oddly enough, Randyll fought on behalf of Danerys's father during Robert's Rebellion, but the inconsistencies of his behavior are another issue).

A crown is on Cersei's head because she placed it there.  That puts Tarly under no obligation to serve Cersei

Cersei didn't want to execute Ned because, at that time, she was trying to prevent a war.  However, when Daenerys executed Randyll Tarly, there was no war to prevent.

And I wouldn't follow Tyrion's suggestions from last season.  Almost all of them, if not all of them, were wrong.  Even Sansa knows Tyrion's sister better than Tyrion does.

Good post.  With the chaos that the Seven Kingdoms were in, it was unclear who owed loyalty to whom.  Just about every man could be consider a traitor or a loyalist, depending upon who you consider to be the rightful ruler. 

I think it was debatable whether she should have had the Tarly roast or not.  I think Dany was in no mood to take prisoners and probably not really equipped to do so.  What is she supposed to do, release them and let them come back to kill her people, like the Nazi prisoner they released in Saving Private Ryan?

I thought Tyrion's suggestion of sending Randyll to the Wall made sense, but he rejected outright and disrespectfully. 

The Tarly roast probably saved lives in the long run because Lanister soldiers (many of who didn't give a crap about the Laniseters anyway) realized she was not to be trifled with.  

Dracarys!   

Edited April 15, 2019 by Bryce Lynch

[Lady S.]

4 hours ago, GodsBeloved said:

This is what I am unclear on. The Tarlys had not pledged themselves to Daenerys so is it treason for Randyll to not bend the knee especially when his Queen Cersei had not be unseated?? However in this case, I do think Jon might give second thought to killing Randyll if he saw it as treason. His own father, well uncle, was at least as guilty of treason as Randyll supposedly was.

It was treason in that Cersei had zero right to the throne and murdered his rightful liege family. Ned was guilty only in that he refused to let the first Lannister usurper sit the throne and then falsely swore fealty for Sansa's sake, a far cry from Randyll only agreeing to serve Cersei so he could take Highgarden from Olenna. How is that any better than the Boltons betraying the Starks to get Winterfell? Jon was not yet king when Rickon was murdered and Ramsay had not been unseated yet he and Sansa still agreed that Smalljon Umber was guilty of treason.

[lorbeer]

19 hours ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

Dany:

"I'm not a tyrant. I'm here to save you people from evil rulers."

Also Dany:

"Haha, look at these people I want to rule over run away in terror at the sight of my dragons."

Like holy shit what was that scene? 

Exactly what I thought.

19 hours ago, ICantDoThatDave said:

I wish they'd stop having every character telling us how smart Sansa is and show her doing something smart or thinking up a brilliant plan or something.

She did figure out Cersei wasn't coming so I say she's smarter than some of them. 😉 I actually think she has some chances to survive the season and become queen in the north or something like that. Of course only if she's not killed by jealous i-am-the-queen-respect-me-or.....

18 hours ago, BitterApple said:

Is it me or does it seem like Dany's character is taking on a bit of a nasty edge? Her smirky face watching the dragons fly into Winterfell, the comment about Sansa must respect her as Queen and Bran's lack of enthusiasm makes me think we're being set up to watch an epic downfall. Or maybe Jon will have to assert himself as the true King and eventually battle it out with her.

18 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

I think what I dislike about Dany is that she is one of those people who likes to think she's an enlightened ruler but the minute she feels challenged she goes all out with the burning and the crucification and methods that Cersei would employ. She's not any different from the other rulers but she's convinced in her mind that she's this amazing, humane ruler. 

I know Sansa gets a lot of hate but her experiences have hardened her to the point where she knows that she needs to rule by practical governance, and not "hey I'm the mother of dragons bend the knee."

I think Dany won't become THE Queen. She's just too cocky at this point and she'll suffer for that. And I like it!

Edited April 15, 2019 by lorbeer

[ImpinAintEasy]

I’m not as confident about anything in this series as I am about Sansa being Lady Of Winterfell/Warden of the North at the end. They’ll have to rebuild Winterfell and repopulate the North, and I’m confident Sansa will oversee it. 

[LadyChaos]

5 minutes ago, ImpinAintEasy said:

I’m not as confident about anything in this series as I am about Sansa being Lady Of Winterfell/Warden of the North at the end. They’ll have to rebuild Winterfell and repopulate the North, and I’m confident Sansa will oversee it. 

IDK.....all the talk about how she is more Tully than Stark, and her being Caitlyn's daughter, makes me think she'll end up in the River Lands.

[GodsBeloved]

4 hours ago, comanick said:

I think everyone who mentions this is taking danys threat out of context.

I accept that I may be guilty of this.

[GustavMahler]

Just a random musing....back in season 7, once it was decided to have Jon & Co. capture an Undead to show  Cersi, how about Jon saying "Hold on, let's make a stopover at Winterfell first to show my know-it-all Sister, and the other fools, what we are facing." That would have eliminated alot of this mundane bickering.....

[GodsBeloved]

4 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

She is doing it for the North and the entire realm.  She could easily hop on Drogon and fly back to Meereen and hang out there until the whatever happens in Westeros is over.

I don't get where people get the idea that Dany is so selfish.  She could have taken the Iron Throne years ago, but she hung around in Esos to make sure the slaves she freed stayed free and held off attacking King's Landing because she didn't want to kill hundreds of thousands of people and be the Queen of the Ashes.   

And then she'd be Queen of the ashes or a whole lot of walking dead.

I mean isn't one argument that but for her, the North (she's there to save their asses) then everyone else in the realm would be toast? They can't win without her, so if she leaves they lose and she is Queen of nothing but the dead.

Edited April 15, 2019 by GodsBeloved

[Lady S.]

22 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

Tarly's were bannerman to the Tyrells, who already forfeited rights to their lands and titles if Cersei won, Tarly was reminded that he also swore alliagience to the crown, so he was given a choice follow the Tyrells who were wanted for treason or honor his oath to the crown.

I seem to remember Walder Frey making the same argument in his first scene. Was the Red Wedding not a crime because the throne sanctioned it? Randyll was also given a choice to get the Tyrell titles, let's not forget that he was insulting the Lannisters and touting his service to the Tyrells before Jaime mentioned that.

[lorbeer]

17 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Also, Dany hasn't demanded anyone else in the North bend the knee. She doesn't need to when their king has. Actually, remember Robert's royal welcome scene where everyone bowed down? I didn't catch anybody doing that this time and Dany didn't care at all.

Oh, I bet she did. A lot. 😉

17 hours ago, AnnaL said:

YMMV 

I thought Dany showed poor political skills, she could have had the Tarlys imprisoned and at least attempt to trade them for Yara and Elaria who were her major allies captured by Cersei. She never even thought about it. 

There is a reason why Jaime wasn't killed by Rob, he was an important prisoner and that is why Tywin was livid when he learned that Ned had been beheaded, sometimes you have to maneuver the political spectrum and negotiate, something that Daenerys hasn't learned to do,  her first go to card is "Dracarys"  

She didn't listen to Tyrion who was there to advise her, she didn't listen to Jon who told her not to burn people before she even went there. At the end Daenerys has advisors but she only listens to them when she wants, most times she just goes rogue. 

I'm with you.

[BitterApple]

20 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

And then she'd be Queen of the ashes or a whole lot of walking dead.

I mean isn't one argument that but for her, the North then everyone else in the realm would be toast? They can't win without her, so if she leaves they lose and she is Queen of nothing but the dead.

That's my take as well. Dany's ultimate goal is to rule Westeros. The events in Essos were just a means to an end. She needed an Army, so she freed the slaves. She needs a population to govern, so she's helping the North to defeat the Night King. I think she has done some honorable things, I just don't think her main motivation for those things was entirely pure. 

I think it's going to come down to Jon having to choose the Starks or his Queen.

Edited April 15, 2019 by BitterApple

[GodsBeloved]

1 hour ago, LadyChaos said:

IDK....did you see Jon's face when Sam asked him if Dany would have bent the knee if the situation was reversed?

Jon is in love with Dany, so he wants to believe she would do the right thing.....but I think he can't quite forget that Dany took his ship and weapons away from him, and refused to let him leave when he didn't initially bend the knee after she demanded it. 

Even though she said she would fight with the North, I think deep down, Jon wonders if she wouldn't turn on him the minute, the war was over.  Dany's army would be in perfect position to destroy the North after the AotD was gone, and they would have had time to acclimate to the North.  Im not saying she would, just that he might be wondering if she would have if he had not bent the knee.

Jon loves Dany and he wants to believe she would do the right thing, but I think part of him doubts what kind of person she really is. 

Interesting point you make to which I say if Jon who lurves her has doubts about her, doesn't exactly trust her, Sansa and any other Northerners' distrust seems reasonable to me.

[MadameKillerB]

2 hours ago, The Companion said:

I loved the increased isolation (physically and geographically) of Cersei.

We are set up to have some really epic final episodes. The storylines are compressing and everything is coming together. I am excited to see how it all ends.

I agree. Her big ass throne room, clean and empty and dark.

[GodsBeloved]

30 minutes ago, GustavMahler said:

Just a random musing....back in season 7, once it was decided to have Jon & Co. capture an Undead to show  Cersi, how about Jon saying "Hold on, let's make a stopover at Winterfell first to show my know-it-all Sister, and the other fools, what we are facing." That would have eliminated alot of this mundane bickering.....

This would have made sense so it was a no-go.

[TheGourmez]

6 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

I agree with your post in context of the show, but this also illustrates what I think turned out to be a bit of a fundamental problem with the ending of S7: if she were so smart and saw the while walkers as a threat right away, and you're already in the north, why not take the chance to burn all or as many of the white walkers while you're there? Okay, so Victarion is felled, but if you have Rhaegal and Drogon just torching everything in site, you can effectively set back the entire effort at the very least, and at best, you burn the Night King and everyone of the wights is lost. No, it isn't as dramatic as having the wall fall, a dragon zombie, etc., but it WOULD have ended what I'm pretty sure is going to is going to be a pretty unsatisfying conflict with an unsatisfying villain. It would have left S8 ALL of the episodes to deal with what we all really want to see in the firstplace: the war for the Iron Throne. 

Ending the WW conflict there actually solves a lot of problems. Not the least of which is it turns "dumb plan" into "improvised imperial maneuver by Danerys" and gives the north reason to consider their allegiance. 

Dany made clear the sheer numbers the dead have, a hundred thousand at least, I believe she said when estimating. Yes, her two dragons will still be instrumental, but they were being targeted - successfully - by the Night King. I don't think they could have made much more of a dent without risking another dragon's life in that particular battle. The better choice probably was to force the Night King to come to them on their terms...as much as the Night King functions on anyone else's terms.

6 hours ago, Penman61 said:

Question: Leaving aside for the moment how Luke and Leia Dany and Jon might personally react to the news that they are aunt and nephew after they've bumped uglies, how might the people react?  I can't tell if the reaction would be disgust that threatens their rule or just dirty jokes that makes them more relatable or...what? 

I don't think the Westerosi will care hardly at all about the aunt/nephew thing.

As for the Freys, wasn't getting the Frey army just a bonus and the real reason for the engagement was just to allow passage across the river for Robb's armies?

[GodsBeloved]

3 minutes ago, TheGourmez said:

As for the Freys, wasn't getting the Frey army just a bonus and the real reason for the engagement was just to allow passage across the river for Robb's armies?

Yes Cat went to bargain for getting across the river not to get additional men.

Edited April 15, 2019 by GodsBeloved

[Drogo]

36 minutes ago, GustavMahler said:

Just a random musing....back in season 7, once it was decided to have Jon & Co. capture an Undead to show  Cersi, how about Jon saying "Hold on, let's make a stopover at Winterfell first to show my know-it-all Sister, and the other fools, what we are facing." That would have eliminated alot of this mundane bickering.....

He probably thought his family and supporters would take his word for it. 

You know nothing, Jon Snow. 

[Nanrad]

6 hours ago, Timetoread said:

I had another thought.  I think maybe some of the problem is Jon's inability to grasp reality versus what he's used to.   He doesn't want to be a leader because of the position he held in his family.  He still sees Sansa as the nasty little sister who looks down on him and hears her concerns as insults, rather than receiving them as alternative perspective.  His reception of Arya shows me that he will struggle with understanding what she is now and what she's done.  He won't be able to wrap his head around Bran at all.

He seems to register only what HE has been through but not what the others have been through and how it has changed them.  Sansa was not only raped by the evil Bolton bastard, she spent years observing the machinations of KL.  She has a better take on Cersei than Tyrion.  Arya is able to move in and out of situations with stealth and efficiency.  Bran can see everything.

Jon has got to stop thinking of his siblings as who they were before everything went down.

The thing is: MOST people can't comprehend who Arya or Bran are because parts of them are so far out there. This isn't as simple as Jon not wanting to see his siblings for who they are, but rather, how do you grasp your "brother" being a three eyed raven and your "sister" being a faceless man. She literally carries faces of the people she killed around with her to transform into them. And it isn't like he's outright rejecting who they are, the people they are now is never explained to him--not really. 

He and Sansa simply have a communication issue and that's from both angles. As helpful as Sansa calls herself being, she can also be very unhelpful at times if you listen to her, but decide to do something else. Jon's problem is he needs things spelled out because most of his life was handled in black and white. 

5 hours ago, Drumpf1737 said:

Sansa is the reason they have Winterfell back. Sansa killed the other bastard. Sansa instead of fighting Arya, had Arya kill Little Finger. 

There's some evidence.

Only the LF thing is evidence of her smarts. She pressured Jon into fighting to reclaim Winterfell, and then withheld vital information because she didn't trust him. Rather than proving Jon would ignore her potential ally in the Vale, she didn't tell him altogether, which resulted in unnecessary deaths. Her killing Ramsey was due to anger and revenge not smarts. I'm not saying that she is dumb, I'm saying there isn't an abundance of evidence people claim that Sansa is the smartest on the show. Her survival until BotB literally depending on other people saving her due to selfish reasons or oaths they made to others. She has a better understanding of her enemies because she was held captive by them not due to observance or a battle of wits through scheming. 

5 hours ago, comanick said:

I think everyone who mentions this is taking danys threat out of context. Imo she was trying to say what Jon Snow should have been saying to/about Sansa since last season and that is you dont have to like me or even agree with my decisions but you have to show respect in public. Behind closed doors you can express whatever you like, we can then try to come some sort of median then we can go talk to our subordinates as a united front. Sansa has knack now for publicily calling out people above her and that is just not the way things are done. It doesnt help anything. It just causes dissent in a situation where we all need to be unified. 

The scene with dany talking to jon about Sansa is a prime example of how you should do things like this. She talked to him in private and basically said you need to talk to your sister before i have to. i am the queen you choose to rule over the north and at the very least she has to respect that in public. 

Any ruler would ask for that. 

OMG! Thank you for pointing this out! She literally didn't have to take Jon aside and talk to him, but she wants to show a united front, which Sansa doesn't care for. Ironically, I believe Sansa is obsessed with power due to her traumatic past. It's not an insult towards her, but I have a huge gripe how she keeps disagreeing with Jon in public. 

4 hours ago, Timetoread said:

The Knights of the Vale wasn't a sure thing.  Jon flat out wasn't listening to her.  He played the "What do you know about war? Well I'm a warrior so shut up." card.  She tried to tell him about Ramsey and Rickon.  Then  Jon went against his OWN strategy doing EXACTLY what Sansa warned him against.  So maybe she didn't win the BOTB by being smart but Jon lost it by being dumb.

The Littlefinger takedown?  That was smart as hell!

Here's the thing: Jon was right, Sansa didn't know anything about war. Sansa was right: Ramsey was sadistic. But, Sansa didn't explain her point well at all, so all Jon has is a vague warning all while knowing he needs to fight a war. Jon wasn't being dumb, Jon didn't have all of the pertinent information because Sansa didn't trust him for whatever reason. There is literally no reason why she shouldn't have told the person she asked to wage war and who was the commander of the army that there was another army potentially on the way. There was no consequence in saying, "The Vale may be on its way." If Jon ignored her, that was on him. But, she never gave him the option. She never elaborated in other ways how Ramsey was sadistic, which didn't have to include personal reasons.

[Lady S.]

19 minutes ago, TheGourmez said:

As for the Freys, wasn't getting the Frey army just a bonus and the real reason for the engagement was just to allow passage across the river for Robb's armies?

Yes, but he did owe them his men as a Tully bannerman, Cat just wasn't expecting him to do it because he did not take his oaths seriously. My point was that men who choose the crown over their liege lords have never been shown as doing so out of a higher honor and Randyll being offered the Tarly titles makes him no exception.  

[The Companion]

42 minutes ago, MadameKillerB said:

I agree. Her big ass throne room, clean and empty and dark.

Exactly. Just Cersei and her guard. It was a huge contrast from the Court we saw in early seasons. 

[MarySNJ]

31 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

That's my take as well. Dany's ultimate goal is to rule Westeros. The events in Essos were just a means to an end. She needed an Army, so she freed the slaves. She needs a population to govern, so she's helping the North to defeat the Night King. I think she has done some honorable things, I just don't think her main motivation for those things was entirely pure. 

I think it's going to come down to Jon having to choose the Starks or his Queen.

Well, sure, she's ambitious and believes  (for now) that she's entitled to the throne. But unlike Cersei, I do think Dany takes being "Protector of the Realm" seriously and understands that there is a duty involved in being Queen. And she has acquired an army and loyal followers by a combination of brutality and compassion, depending on what the circumstances required. She risked her life and lost one of her children coming to the rescue of Jon, Jorah and the others when she could have taken Tyrion's advice and done nothing. She tends to win followers by her actions on behalf of others. As Missande said last season: "She is the Queen we chose, not because she's the daughter of some King we never knew.  We follow our Queen because we believe in her."

It doesn't change the fact that she may have an inflated sense of entitlement, but it isn't like she's just showing up in Westeros making demands for the thrones with no accomplishments to her credit. She'll have to prove herself all over again.

[Leroux]

11 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Of course, maybe the Northerners could be a bit more appreciative of her marching North to save them from the Army of the Dead.l

If she ever intends to be the Queen of Westeros then she needs to face the AOTD, sooner better than later. 

If it unfortunate that the North is first on the NK pathway, but without resistance, he eventually will conquer every place is Westeros collecting more dead bodies on his wake. 

I am sure this concept is hard for Dany to grasp but I hope that at least Tyrion has made her see this.

At least Jon understood this and that is why he brought the wildings south of the wall. Imagine if Jon would have Daenerys attitude and would have try to force the wildings to bend the knee to secure passage through the wall? As a Lord Commander it was in his power to do this  but he understood that he would just be making the AOTD stronger and much more difficult to defeat. 

I thought Jon's speech at the dragon pit was great, talking about how the dead are coming for everybody and not just the north. 

[Leroux]

11 hours ago, Wendy said:

Jon will be better off by not telling her a thing, let the battle against the AOTD be over and he will either die and the point will be mute or he will marry her and will be king consort. Either way he doesn't want to rule so at this point I don't think it matters much. 

I know this doesn't matter at all unless they defeat the AOTD but I do wonder if Jon marries Daenerys is he will ever be truly happy in KL, in the middle of that viper nest that his the Red Keep.  Somehow I just can't see it but maybe he will do it for love. 

[rozen]

10 hours ago, LadyChaos said:

A Couple things here:

The North has traditionally NEVER played the game of politics.  They are shown to be honorable people who stick to themselves, and avoid the South because the deceit and the games and the Starks are optimum of Northness. They are their own people.  Thats why even Cersei told Joffery that they can't keep the North without the Starks. The North doesn't play games.  Its why Ned died. It's why Ned's brother died. It why Ned's father and Uncle died. Jon has always been the one that mostly resembled Ned in in manor and personalty.  That is not going to change.

Agreed, it's not their thing. But I am not surprised Sansa is raging that one of the last members of her family is determined to do the same shit that got most of the family killed in the first place. She's paid a higher price than most for the North's insolence, and no one seems to appreciate it except Brianne.

Sansa being snitty to Dany is a lazy writing decision, imo. One of many shortcuts they've used to build friction rather than letting it bubble up organically. You're right, all historical data suggests Sansa would never say something so stupid so publicly. It's just convenient for the "girl fight" angle the producers are pushing.

[Bryce Lynch]

23 minutes ago, Leroux said:

At least Jon understood this and that is why he brought the wildings south of the wall. Imagine if Jon would have Daenerys attitude and would have try to force the wildings to bend the knee to secure passage through the wall? As a Lord Commander it was in his power to do this  but he understood that he would just be making the AOTD stronger and much more difficult to defeat. 

Dany was demanding Jon bend the knee when she still thought he might be telling wild stories about grumpkins and snarks.   Once she saw the NK and his army when she rescued Jon's party, she was no longer demanding Jon bend the knee.  He chose to do it willingly out of gratefulness, admiration, and probably love/infatuation.   That seems like a political mistake on Jon's part (and I thought so at the time), because it created a lot more confrontation and distrust between Dany and the North.  

If she had come without Jon bending the knee and putting the North under her rule, she would have been seen more as a benevolent hero who came to help them (which she largely is) rather than a conqueror coming to subjugate them.  Jon bending knee probably lowered her approval rating from 80% to 25% and harmed his own as well.   

[go4luca]

I kept wondering why Jon didn't mention in Winterfell's great hall while everyone was gathered, that Dany literally saved him from the Night King and walkers.  She could have also told of the horror of how many of them there were and the fact they brought down Viserion.  It may have helped their initial perception of Dany. 

Not saying they would have all had a kumbaya moment.  Only that it may have helped ease tensions.

Edited April 16, 2019 by go4luca
clarity

[Growsonwalls]

I think at this point there aren't many good choices for the ultimate leader of Westeros. 

Cersei - ruthless, selfish, horrible

Dany - a great conqueror, not a great ruler

Jon - his parentage will have to be known for him to hold any weight as a ruler

Sansa - a good manager of Winterfell, but not a ruler

Tyrion - dont think he wants to rule

Jaime - Ditto

Arya - a great fighter but no desire to rule

So the writers have six more episodes to develop characters enough where we'd be okay with them winning the ultimate GoT. Right now it's slim pickings.

[Leroux]

5 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

She is doing it for the North and the entire realm.  She could easily hop on Drogon and fly back to Meereen and hang out there until the whatever happens in Westeros is over.

I don't get where people get the idea that Dany is so selfish.  She could have taken the Iron Throne years ago, but she hung around in Esos to make sure the slaves she freed stayed free and held off attacking King's Landing because she didn't want to kill hundreds of thousands of people and be the Queen of the Ashes.   

She couldn't take the Iron Throne years ago because her dragons were not fully grown, she didn't have the ships to transport her army. She had to bid her time.  If she had the ships she would have sailed to Westeros, Jorah had to talk her out of it on several occasions  because they weren't ready. 

During that time she could have made herself familiar with the families and traditions of Westeros but that didn't happened. If it wasn't because Tyrion and Varys arrived looking for her, I am not sure what she would have done being that she had exiled Jorah and Barristan was dead. 

Unless it was behind doors, she didn't even know that  Tyrion had to send Varys incognito to sweet talk Highgarden and Dorne into joining Daenerys, yet as of to date Daenerys has not (besides the North now) any other allied in the whole of Westeros. She is not really good into keeping allies, at least not in Westeros. 

[LadyChaos]

5 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

I think at this point there aren't many good choices for the ultimate leader of Westeros. 

Cersei - ruthless, selfish, horrible

Dany - a great conqueror, not a great ruler

Jon - his parentage will have to be known for him to hold any weight as a ruler

Sansa - a good manager of Winterfell, but not a ruler

Tyrion - dont think he wants to rule

Jaime - Ditto

Arya - a great fighter but no desire to rule

So the writers have six more episodes to develop characters enough where we'd be okay with them winning the ultimate GoT. Right now it's slim pickings.

I honestly think that the best option for Westeros is a counsel, not a ruler.

[Chris24601]

2 hours ago, lorbeer said:

I think Dany won't become THE Queen. She's just too cocky at this point and she'll suffer for that. And I like it!

This is my take. This episode was Dany and Jon/Dany’s apex... it’s all downhill from here.

My reasoning for that is that drama runs on reverses and this show runs its reverses almost like clockwork.

Take Jon for example, at first he's an outsider at home and so he goes and joins the Nights Watch. Over the course of the season he goes from hating it and not getting along with the other recruits to finding fellowship with his brothers when they stand together to remind him of his vows and together they range North to find Jon's missing uncle. So the reversal is that he goes from outsider to brother and from arriving at the Wall to leaving the Wall.

In season two the reversal is that he goes from Brother in the Night's Watch and by the end he's killed one of his own brothers and is entering the Wildling camp under cover.

In season three he goes from convincing the Wildling's he one of them and ends it escaping back to the Nights Watch with news of the invasion.

In season four he goes from distrusted outsider who broke all the rules and whose warnings are doubted by those in charge and by the end of the season he's proven himself the true leader of the Nights Watch.

In season five he goes from beloved Lord Commander of his men to a dangerous traitor that some of them murder "for the good of the Watch."

In season six he goes from a man traumatized by his own murder and not wanting to lead anyone to re-embracing life and becoming King in the North.

In season seven he goes from King in the North home in Winterfell to being pulled away and falling for and bending the knee to Dany.

So this season began with Jon and Dany side-by-side and as happy as one could expect given the circumstances and Jon on a bit of the outs with his family and the North. Dany is also at the peak of her power while the North doesn’t even know what to call Jon right now.

The logical reversal will be Jon reconnects to his family while falling out with Dany possibily to the point of being on opposing sides.

Maybe he just parleys his true parentage and claim to Throne to regain the North’s independence. Maybe a Faceless Girl, the Three Eyed Raven (who may or may not be strong enough to warg a dragon) and a competent manager will prove decisive in actually beating her.

I don’t know the specifics, I just know the reversals are coming because they’ve already started. They showed us Jon and Dany at peak happiness on dragonback together right before gut-punching Jon with his true parentage and dropping anvils about whether she’d be willing to give up her claim to the throne.

It only gets worse for them from here because that’s how narrative structure goes.

[AshleyN]

5 hours ago, MissLucas said:

I think they closed with the Bran-Jaimie meeting because it's going to have huge consequences for next episode (just speculating and sorry wee Lord Umber for implying your death is inconsequential). Adding Jaimie to Winterfell is really like bringing matches into an ordnance factory - lots of fun ahead!

I'm pretty sure it was to mirror the ending of the pilot. There were a bunch of scenes that called back to the very first episode (my favourite small detail: the music playing as Jon and Dany arrived at Winterfell was the same as Robert's arrival way back when) but that was the most obvious.

[VCRTracking]

[rmontro]

I don't know why Dany's execution of the Tarly's is supposed to be such a horrible thing.  She built up armies to back up her claim on Westeros, did anyone think she wouldn't use them?  We know how this world works, did anyone think the Iron Throne would change hands without some blood being shed?  The Tarly's were defeated in battle, but would not capitulate.  Even in our world, losing leaders are often executed.

[LadyChaos]

2 minutes ago, rmontro said:

I don't know why Dany's execution of the Tarly's is supposed to be such a horrible thing.  She built up armies to back up her claim on Westeros, did anyone think she wouldn't use them?  We know how this world works, did anyone think the Iron Throne would change hands without some blood being shed?  The Tarly's were defeated in battle, but would not capitulate.  Even in our world, losing leaders are often executed.

Its not. People die in war.  However, she made a big deal about breaking the wheel and being different.....but right now she is just more of the same.

[comanick]

9 minutes ago, rmontro said:

I don't know why Dany's execution of the Tarly's is supposed to be such a horrible thing.  She built up armies to back up her claim on Westeros, did anyone think she wouldn't use them?  We know how this world works, did anyone think the Iron Throne would change hands without some blood being shed?  The Tarly's were defeated in battle, but would not capitulate.  Even in our world, losing leaders are often executed.

Thank you. 

[shireenbamfatheon]

 

 

 

2

6 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

She is doing it for the North and the entire realm.  She could easily hop on Drogon and fly back to Meereen and hang out there until the whatever happens in Westeros is over.

No, she can't. The Long Night isn't just a Westerosi myth; every culture has its own variation of it. Melisandre's been talking about it since the moment she was introduced and she's from Ashai. The Night King brings eternal darkness with him. Sooner or later, it will reach Essos as well, and considering the NK has a dragon, it should take him no time to wreak havoc over there with Westeros' population as his foot soldiers. There is no escape for anyone. Dany could fly away on her dragons but she'd just be postponing her own death by a few months.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

9

3 hours ago, comanick said:

Do you think hizdahr and his father owned slaves? I do. I think most of the master/nobleman of meureen did. 

IMO as someone who is from a country where slavery once existed and also a descendant of one of those peoples I find the idea and application of slavery utterly disgusting to say the least so to me it doesnt really matter if hizdahrs father spoke out about (whether thats even true or not) this one cruel act because if he owned slaves hes just as wrong as the people that crucified those kids. Heck i would even call him a hypocrite to boot. So sorry, no sympathy for anyone who thinks it ok for people to be bought and sold. 

Dany owned slaves in the first season. Irri, Doreah and Jiqui(?) weren't her besties, they were slaves. The woman Dany burned alive for killing her slaver husband? A slave. The villagers her husband pillaged so she could get her throne? They became slaves. She sent Doreah, a woman who'd been forced into sex slavery as a child, to sleep with Xaro and spy on him. She initially went to Astapor to buy a slave army despite seeing firsthand how people were forced into slavery in season one. Jorah, her beloved bear, sold slaves to buy pretty things for his wife. Daario gladly worked for slavers for the right money. Her Dothraki? Slavers. 

If the idea is that everyone who was once a slaver deserves to die a slow and excruciating death because "once a slaver always a slaver", then there'd only be dragons and Unsullied left in Dany's army. No Dany or Jorah either. But different rules for different folks. 

[Macbeth]

4 hours ago, The Companion said:

I am not sure she has any concept of how close Bronn is to Jamie, and I think she believes he can be bought. Honestly, she seems to think most people can be bought. Cersei, for all of her maneuvering, has always been short sighted and impulsive. 

I don't think Bronn is particularly fond of Jaime at all.   He has constantly bitched to Jaime these last couple of seasons about loosing his castle and not getting paid.   At least Tyrion paid him. 

Bronn has stated time and again he sells his sword. He is getting old and those chests of gold will pay for a castle across the sea. 

He wants out of the Lannister"s infighting.  And the quickest way to do that is to kill the brothers. 

When Tyrion asked Bronn if he was capable of killing a baby (after Robert's bastards had been slaughtered)- Bronn replied it would depend on the price. 

Bronn is a fun character but he has no moral compass. 

[Growsonwalls]

Just because this will never be not funny: