Joker (2019)

[GHScorpiosRule]

I was watching something on teevee (blanking on what) and wasn’t in time to fast forward the trailer for this. All I saw was different sides of Joaquin with the “voiceover of” maniacal laughter (left side, right side, front and back), intercut with the clown make-up, audience.🙄🙄🙄

Oh yeah! That just convinced me I should give this a try! NOT.

This looks STUPID. And so, so, unnecessary.

[Bruinsfan]

I've never enjoyed a performance by Phoenix, going all the way back to To Die For, no matter how rhapsodic critics wax about him. Combine that with his off-putting talk show appearances, involvement in Casey Affleck's sexual harassment allegations, and me being more than done with nihilistic grimdark movies from DC in general, and you get a film I can't wait to have finish its theatrical run so I don't ever have to see or hear anything more about it.

[Sakura12]

6 minutes ago, Bruinsfan said:

I've never enjoyed a performance by Phoenix, going all the way back to To Die For, no matter how rhapsodic critics wax about him. Combine that with his off-putting talk show appearances, involvement in Casey Affleck's sexual harassment allegations, and me being more than done with nihilistic grimdark movies from DC in general, and you get a film I can't wait to have finish its theatrical run so I don't ever have to see or hear anything more about it.

I'm with you on this. I don't get his appeal. He basically plays the same character in every movie he's in and critics talk about him like he's done something amazing. 

I lost interest in this movie once he was cast. It also doesn't feel like a movie about the comic book character The Joker, it feels like they are using the name recognition to get people to see it. 

[Spartan Girl]

What also bothers me about this version is that in addition to making the Joker sympathetic, they're going to trash Thomas Wayne's character.  This movie obviously has Joker becoming some kind of cult hero to Gotham's downtrodden because his victims are "elitist" rich people.  This is the same stuff we saw in The Dark Knight Rises.  And say whatever you want about that movie, but at least Christopher Nolan didn't portray Talia and Bane as anything other than extremist zealots that wanted to wipe out billions of people, guilty and/or innocent.  No sympathetic backstory for them.

[BooBear]

On 9/23/2019 at 3:31 PM, Sakura12 said:

It also doesn't feel like a movie about the comic book character The Joker, it feels like they are using the name recognition to get people to see it. 

This. Hollywood thinks they have found the winning formula doing this but I am getting sick of it. Hard pass. 

[MarkHB]

2 hours ago, BooBear said:

This. Hollywood thinks they have found the winning formula doing this but I am getting sick of it. Hard pass. 

It boils down to, they're having a brutal time getting people to turn out to the theaters for anything that doesn't seem like an event (horror is the exception).  How many "ordinary" movies (many of which were good) flopped this year?

[supposebly]

Another reason maybe not to go see this.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/us-army-warns-of-possible-incel-shootings-at-joker-film-screenings/ar-AAHTiTR?li=AAggFp4

[Anela]

On 9/2/2019 at 11:43 AM, Dejana said:

The discourse around this movie is already exhausting and it won't be released for another month:

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2019/sep/02/incel-violence-joker-rightwing-film-joaquin-phoenix

19 hours ago, supposebly said:

Another reason maybe not to go see this.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/us-army-warns-of-possible-incel-shootings-at-joker-film-screenings/ar-AAHTiTR?li=AAggFp4

I've just heard about this warning, too. I wasn't really interested in the movie before, but now I'm definitely not interested. I was hoping to see IT Chapter 2, but I might skip it now. I just have no interest in going to the movies, and worrying about being the potential target of a mass murder. No thank you. 

[BetterButter]

Warner Bros. gets so serious, kicks all the interviewers off the Joker red carpet

[Anela]

13 hours ago, BetterButter said:

Warner Bros. gets so serious, kicks all the interviewers off the Joker red carpet

They make a controversial movie, and are too scared to talk about anything that might happen surrounding it? Typical. 

[AimingforYoko]

On 9/28/2019 at 9:04 AM, Anela said:

They make a controversial movie, and are too scared to talk about anything that might happen surrounding it? Typical. 

"Hey we decided to make a provocative movie, but that doesn't mean we meant to provoke anyone!"

[WritinMan]

On 9/28/2019 at 10:04 AM, Anela said:

They make a controversial movie, and are too scared to talk about anything that might happen surrounding it? Typical. 

Seems more like they made a serious movie, and the media and Twitter made it controversial.

Edited October 2, 2019 by WritinMan
Typo!

[Anela]

1 minute ago, WritinMan said:

Seems more like they made a serious movie, and the media and Twitter made it controversial.

Not when there are people out there talking seriously about shooting up a theatre, on opening night. Specifically because the main character in this movie, represents them (according to what the military released). 

[WritinMan]

11 minutes ago, Anela said:

Not when there are people out there talking seriously about shooting up a theatre, on opening night. Specifically because the main character in this movie, represents them (according to what the military released). 

But whose fault is that? Seems like the media and Twitter. And the fault of a handful of unstable people.

Edited October 2, 2019 by WritinMan
Added stuff!

[Anela]

1 hour ago, WritinMan said:

But whose fault is that? Seems like the media and Twitter. And the fault of a handful of unstable people.

You would think if they make a movie like this, would expect to deal with all of this, and would have a plan in place for talking about it, aside from saying that they aren't the ones to teach morality (something I heard from a friend). The movie isn't banned, it's not like they're being censored. 

[WritinMan]

3 hours ago, Anela said:

You would think if they make a movie like this, would expect to deal with all of this, and would have a plan in place for talking about it, aside from saying that they aren't the ones to teach morality (something I heard from a friend). The movie isn't banned, it's not like they're being censored. 

They're likely shocked by the over-the-top, sometimes ridiculous reactions toward the movie and didn't think they'd need a plan.

The animosity towards this movie is truly fascinating and could probably provide a decade's worth of psychological and cultural studies.

Edited October 2, 2019 by WritinMan
Typo!

[xaxat]

I knew I wasn't going to see this movie after the first trailer was released because it screamed "Oscar bait!"

"It deconstructs the myth of Joker."

"Joaquin Phoenix was so committed to this role he lost x pounds!"

"Phoenix was so into method acting the character, he pissed of his co-stars."

[ihavenoidea]

It just looks like a depressing slog to me.  My sister-in-law and myself usually agree on most every movie, but when we both saw the trailer for this she looked at me and told me she thought it looked awesome and I looked at her and told her I thought it looked awful.  It seems people were either super pumped or were repelled on first sight.

[Danny Franks]

22 hours ago, xaxat said:

I knew I wasn't going to see this movie after the first trailer was released because it screamed "Oscar bait!"

"It deconstructs the myth of Joker."

"Joaquin Phoenix was so committed to this role he lost x pounds!"

"Phoenix was so into method acting the character, he pissed of his co-stars."

It's all fucking bullshit. You can't "deconstruct the myth of the Joker" because he's not a person, he's the anthropomorphic representation of  malevolent chaos - The counterpoint to Batman's desire to impose order on Gotham. Trying to normalise him is completely missing the point of the character. Christopher Nolan understood that. Alan Moore didn't, and it seems very clear that Todd Phillips didn't either.

Sure, you can ask any number of actors to try and inject some profound and tragic history into the character, you can gussy it up however you want, it's no more valid a depiction than Mark Hamill's or Jack Nicholson's.

And Todd Phillips has come across as a total edgelord trying to "trigger snowflakes" with the way he's dealt with the questions from the media. Chuntering on about how "you're not allowed to be funny any more."

Quote

“Go try to be funny nowadays with this woke culture,” Phillips said. “There were articles written about why comedies don’t work anymore—I’ll tell you why, because all the fucking funny guys are like, ‘Fuck this shit, because I don’t want to offend you.’”

Really? Try telling Michael Schur that. Or Dan Goor, Larry David or James Gunn. There are funnier people in television and in movies than Phillips could ever dream of being, and they don't have to appeal to the spectre of fragile, toxic masculinity to get a laugh.

Edited October 3, 2019 by Danny Franks

[Guest]

On 10/2/2019 at 11:45 AM, Anela said:

You would think if they make a movie like this, would expect to deal with all of this, and would have a plan in place for talking about it, aside from saying that they aren't the ones to teach morality (something I heard from a friend). The movie isn't banned, it's not like they're being censored. 

Exactly. Plus the drama isn’t just because people are upset over the level of violence. There have been real threats. Even if all of those are fake law enforcement and theater owners have to respond as though they are real. 

Critics and reviewers also received threats over The Dark Knight Rises. To not respond this time would be incredibly irresponsible. 

[TVSpectator]

So I have been hearing that this movie is literally a masterpiece in the vein of Taxi Driver. I am actually kind of excited to go see this movie this weekend. 

[Spartan Girl]

20 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

And Todd Phillips has come across as a total edgelord trying to "trigger snowflakes" with the way he's dealt with the questions from the media. Chuntering on about how "you're not allowed to be funny any more."

Quote

“Go try to be funny nowadays with this woke culture,” Phillips said. “There were articles written about why comedies don’t work anymore—I’ll tell you why, because all the fucking funny guys are like, ‘Fuck this shit, because I don’t want to offend you.’”

Really? Try telling Michael Schur that. Or Dan Goor, Larry David or James Gunn. There are funnier people in television and in movies than Phillips could ever dream of being, and they don't have to appeal to the spectre of fragile, toxic masculinity to get a laugh.

Remember when I said that if Todd Phillips wanted to tell the tragic story of a comedian he should have just stuck to doing that Belushi biopic?  I take it back.  If this was the best that asshole could do with the Joker, I don't even want to know how he would have handled the serious subject matter of John Belushi.  But I digress...

[Featherhat]

Just come back from a showing of this because some friends wanted to see it and I thought it was dull? Pretty much exactly what I expected it to be when I heard they were trying to "deconstruct" the Joker. And really predictable too, I saw everything coming from a mile away.

They still managed to get THAT scene in the movie, is it a thing that has to happen in anything vaguely related to Batman? I know why they had it in, but I rolled my eyes hard. Always, always got to have that scene. 

[CletusMusashi]

Every trailer they've come up with looks about the same. Apparently some of the most exciting moments of the movie are: he sits around looking angsty, he makes faces at a kid on a bus, he gets beaten up in a scene that looks more like part of a montage than like an actual scene, he plays a guy standing in front of a microphone by acting like Joaquin Phoenix playing a guy standing in front of a microphone, he does a little dance and kicks one leg into the air, and he sort of spreads his arms out and walks around in some sort of halfassed drunken crucifixion metaphor. I think I'd better quit this movie while I'm ahead. I don't know if I can handle any more of this excitement level. In fact, I think I'd better go have a lie down right down.

[festivus]

Yeah, every trailer just makes it look more pretentious and boring. I'll probably see it someday, but I'm in no hurry. I'm not a fan of Joaquin Phoenix, I struggle to understand his appeal. 

[CletusMusashi]

His name contains a lot of cool-looking letter combinations. I think that's it.

[festivus]

I was just reading that article from up-thread warning about possible shootings and the picture of him at the bottom of it looks more like Penguin. 

From article:

Quote

Last week, Phoenix apparently walked out of an interview after the Telegraph’s Robbie Collin asked him about the violent implications of the film.

I honestly don't know anything about this dude (and don't really want to) and I haven't been following stories about the movie but he seems like a twat.

[Ohiopirate02]

27 minutes ago, CletusMusashi said:

Every trailer they've come up with looks about the same. Apparently some of the most exciting moments of the movie are: he sits around looking angsty, he makes faces at a kid on a bus, he gets beaten up in a scene that looks more like part of a montage than like an actual scene, he plays a guy standing in front of a microphone by acting like Joaquin Phoenix playing a guy standing in front of a microphone, he does a little dance and kicks one leg into the air, and he sort of spreads his arms out and walks around in some sort of halfassed drunken crucifixion metaphor. I think I'd better quit this movie while I'm ahead. I don't know if I can handle any more of this excitement level. In fact, I think I'd better go have a lie down right down.

I feel the need to share this nugget from NPR's review of the film--

Arthur suffers one of his many onscreen beatings at the hands (and feet) of a bunch of Wall Street bros on the subway, who taunt him by singing "Send In The Clowns." Nearly in its entirety. (The scene goes on for a while.)

It's really the only time in this otherwise grounded, grim and gritty film that we're asked to suspend our disbelief at all — because, seriously, we're supposed to buy that a straight finance bro would be off-book on the second and third verses of a Sondheim number?

("Bro! I spent last night poundin' brews and fallin' down A Little Night Music YouTube wormhole! The Dench, bro! The Dench crushed it!" "Naw man, you gotta see my girl CZ-J in the 2009 Broadway revival, she makes Desiree's wry and winsome melancholy A THING YOU CAN FEEL IN YOUR 'NADS BRO.")

[Sakura12]

I'm going to guess that Joaquin Phoenix plays the Joker as depressed, lonely and/or drunk with a weird quirk and anger management issues.  That is basically the character he plays in all his movies. He is also one of those actors that likes to use the method acting excuse to be an a-hole to his co-workers. So no thanks. He's the reason I have no interests in this movie. 

[Danny Franks]

2 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I feel the need to share this nugget from NPR's review of the film--

Arthur suffers one of his many onscreen beatings at the hands (and feet) of a bunch of Wall Street bros on the subway, who taunt him by singing "Send In The Clowns." Nearly in its entirety. (The scene goes on for a while.)

It's really the only time in this otherwise grounded, grim and gritty film that we're asked to suspend our disbelief at all — because, seriously, we're supposed to buy that a straight finance bro would be off-book on the second and third verses of a Sondheim number?

That was my immediate thought as I read the first bit of your post - No way a Wall Street money bro would know any more than the chorus (if that) of that song. Also, wouldn't Tears of a Clown be more appropriate for such a cliché?

As I understand it, the movie goes out of its way to give excuses to the sort of people who think the world is just too hard and unfair for a mediocre white guy. Coming from Todd Phillips, who is very much a mediocre talent yet has achieved remarkable success, I find that rather ironic.

Edited October 4, 2019 by Danny Franks

[Featherhat]

2 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I'm going to guess that Joaquin Phoenix plays the Joker as depressed, lonely and/or drunk with a weird quirk and anger management issues.  That is basically the character he plays in all his movies. He is also one of those actors that likes to use the method acting excuse to be an a-hole to his co-workers. So no thanks. He's the reason I have no interests in this movie. 

16 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

That was my immediate thought as I read the first bit of your post - No way a Wall Street money bro would know any more than the chorus (if that) of that song. Also, wouldn't Tears of a Clown be more appropriate for such a cliché?

As I understand it, the movie goes out of its way to give excuses to the sort of people who think the world is just too hard and unfair for a mediocre white guy. Coming from Todd Phillips, who is very much a mediocre talent yet has achieved remarkable success, I find that rather ironic.

Throw in some highly questionable commentary on mental health and this about sums the movie up for me. 

Wayne Enterprises Douche Bro randomly launching into "Send in the Clowns" before one of the (many, many) sad sack beatings was by far my favourite part. He must be someone that used a corporate ticket once and just fell in love with it. 

[revbfc]

I was fine with the use of “Send in the clowns.”  It’s easy to sing it as a mocking, menacing promise of pain, and it reminded me slightly of the “Singin’ in the rain” scene from Clockwork Orange.  Those Wayne-bros would have killed Arthur if he didn’t have the gun.

[ApathyMonger]

I thought Phoenix was great, and there were some very good moments, but I didn’t enjoy the movie. I don’t think I’ve ever sighed and rolled my eyes so many times in two hours. All of the unreliable narrator stuff and Scorsese nods just annoyed me.

Everything with the Waynes was awful, especially having to see that alley scene again. All of the Trump nods just felt pointless.

I liked the De Niro bits, but I didn’t think the clips of Arthur’s stand-up were bad enough to go viral in the way the movie shows. He’s awkward and bad, but the clips shown on TV are so short that you can’t really tell how bad and awkward the full set was.

Aside from De Niro, the supporting cast are mostly wasted. Shea Whigham and Bill Camp are great in their few scenes, but Zasie Beetz gets nothing to do.

I saw this in a mostly sold out large screen, and it was the most people I've ever seen have the smallest reaction to anything. Nobody in my screening ever seemed excited by anything on screen, and most of the laugh moments were scattered at best.

[revbfc]

After thinking about this movie a little more, I think it’s the greatest episode of “Gotham,” ever.

(Not an insult.)

[Racj82]

My God. All this and the actual movie has been barely discussed. Just accusations mostly? I thought there was more actual movie discussion going on. Threw me off a bit.

I was always interested in seeing this movie.

I don't have any hang ups on it's looks, the nods to taxi driver style cinema. I miss adult oriented cinema that brings in different types of audiences and gets people talking on a bigger scale.

I don't have a problem with Phoenix. He puts his all into his roles. Can't knock him for that.

This is what the super hero genre needs. Not everything needs to be tied to comic book Canon or a universe. Creators need to be able to play around with characters sometimes. Just make movies. 

I really enjoyed the movie. I wasn't super disturbed by it or anything. But, that's not something that usually happens to me. Especially not for a more psychological drama like this one.

There are some images I could see as disturbing.

It's not ultra violent but it doesn't take it easy on the violence while it's happening. It's doesn't abuse it's rating by throwing foul language, sex and violence at you all over the place.

There are so many moments that for me felt like the best representation of Joker on screen ever. Some moments that just absolutely nailed what Joker is about.

I kind of get the worry about this movie even though it's ultimately not the movies problem and I'm tired of blaming entertainment on people who have issues far beyond what's on their screen.

There is such a strong feeling of civil unrest. So, much I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore. Classism wars. That's scary to think that people would take it as a call to arms but people are rigged that way. Some people.

The direction was great. Great use of music. The performances were stellar.

Very little fan service type stuff and most of that comes from any Wayne's related stuff.

I actually felt for Joker here which always for more interesting movie like this. Yes, you get why he ends up this way even though Joker never needs to be explained. But, it's not just one thing. He doesn't just have one bad day. He doesn't just have a shitty childhood to moan about. There is a lot going on here.

I don't have a problem with the way mental illness was treated here. The movie was more about condemning the way these people are treated than just using mental illness as entertainment. Things might go differently if society treat mental illness a certain way or if the haves cared more about the have nots.

My only main gripe with the movie is that there are a bunch of things left open to interpretation that I rather have concrete answers. Or should I say there is a moment that puts other things into question. It's not bad. I'm just not looking forward to the debate.

[AimingforYoko]

7 hours ago, Racj82 said:

Or should I say there is a moment that puts other things into question.

Movie's out, we can be open. Are you talking about when we found out that Arthur's relationship with Sophie was actually imaginary? While I was always suspicious, the fact that none of his encounters with her (save the first meeting in the elevator) were real was a bit of a surprise. Arthur was quite the unreliable narrator.

I was wondering throughout how this guy was going to turn into the kingpin of crime in Gotham. After he shot Murray on live TV, I thought, "Yeah, that'll do it."

Edited October 5, 2019 by AimingforYoko

[Robert Lynch]

Is this movie good or not?

[Featherhat]

I guessed what was his imagination and not by if it was in the slightest bit happy or positive for him it wasn't real. I figured he'd kill both his mother and Murray early on. I guess we weren't supposed to be sure if his mother was telling the truth about his parentage or if Thomas was or both. It seems like she did at least neglect him/let him get abused as a boy. 

I wasn't impressed with the way mental illness was portrayed, a lot of over used tropes for one thing but that's par for the course for movies. 

[Silver Raven]

On 10/4/2019 at 11:34 AM, festivus said:

I was just reading that article from up-thread warning about possible shootings and the picture of him at the bottom of it looks more like Penguin. 

From article:

I honestly don't know anything about this dude (and don't really want to) and I haven't been following stories about the movie but he seems like a twat.

Well, he did spend several years claiming he was through acting and was going to become a hip hop artist.  He and Casey Affleck even made a movie called I'm Still Here, which documented his attempt to break into hip hop.  For three years, he went around talking about how he was a singer now and no longer an actor.  And when the movie came out, and flopped, he announced, "Surprise, it was all a joke!"

[Silver Raven]

OK, so the movie.  Can we talk about that?  First off, it's set in Gotham City, which is not a real place,  It does not take place in the real world.  Secondly, it takes place in the 70s (you can tell by the movies showing on the theater signs), in a Gotham that is in severe financial straits and everybody hates everybody else.  Garbage is piling up in the streets.  People can't find jobs.  Government is cutting its social net.  So the fact that there are people beating on people is just part of the millieu.  Don't try to put this movie into the real world.

Secondly, yeah, it's dark and depressing, but Joaquin Phoenix kills it.  He's in every single scene, and you can't take your eyes off him.

Bruce Wayne seems to have a very flat affect.  There is something seriously wrong with him.  Just like everybody else in this world.

And yeah, there is pearl clutching.

[TVSpectator]

The last 20-30 minutes of the film really pays off and is amazing to watch. Also the Oscars should just give Joaquin Phoenix the best actor award. 

[Racj82]

3 hours ago, AimingforYoko said:

Movie's out, we can be open. Are you talking about when we found out that Arthur's relationship with Sophie was actually imaginary? While I was always suspicious, the fact that none of his encounters with her (save the first meeting in the elevator) were real was a bit of a surprise. Arthur was quite the unreliable narrator.

I was wondering throughout how this guy was going to turn into the kingpin of crime in Gotham. After he shot Murray on live TV, I thought, "Yeah, that'll do it."

I'm talking about the ending. It puts everything you saw into question.

[AimingforYoko]

35 minutes ago, Racj82 said:

I'm talking about the ending. It puts everything you saw into question.

In Arkham? Are you saying the entire movie took place in his mind? I don't think so. 

[revbfc]

8 minutes ago, AimingforYoko said:

In Arkham? Are you saying the entire movie took place in his mind? I don't think so. 

If it all took place in his mind, then everyone wasted their time.  It would also mean that Arthur‘s ideal self could be deceived in his own fantasies.

[Racj82]

9 minutes ago, AimingforYoko said:

In Arkham? Are you saying the entire movie took place in his mind? I don't think so. 

I didn't say anything. That's the point. You don't think so and there is no definitive answer. There are already theories on what was real and not real all over the place. I just could have done without that.

There are parts that are obvious like his girlfriend and when he appears in the audience on the show. But, where does it end? We are following a character scene by scene who is clearly having delusions. 

[Silver Raven]

Something I forgot to mention.  The sound track is outstanding.  And Hildur Guðnadóttir killed it.  Her music is so ... dark.

[Robert Lynch]

3 hours ago, Silver Raven said:

Well, he did spend several years claiming he was through acting and was going to become a hip hop artist.  He and Casey Affleck even made a movie called I'm Still Here, which documented his attempt to break into hip hop.  For three years, he went around talking about how he was a singer now and no longer an actor.  And when the movie came out, and flopped, he announced, "Surprise, it was all a joke!"

That was such a strange period there. Even the bizarre interview and all the theatrics, I told my parents that he would go back to acting if his documentary flopped and I was right. You might not like Joaquin, but he is no dummy. He knows what sells.

[methodwriter85]

I thought this felt like a really dark, gritty, 1970's movie. I don't know if I enjoyed it, and I really think they could've cut the numerous scenes of him dancing because it got repetitive, but I'm glad I watched it.

[Robert Lynch]

I don't think Joaquin Phoenix is much of a dancer, anyway.

Edited October 6, 2019 by Robert Lynch

[TVSpectator]

15 hours ago, AimingforYoko said:

In Arkham? Are you saying the entire movie took place in his mind? I don't think so. 

Possibly. Clearly he was having delusions once he got off his meds. I would say that he actually did kill those 3 Wall Street types but everything involving the so call clown movement/riot could just be a further delusion and the cops arrested him much earlier in the film.