S03.E17: R&B

[voiceover]

Actually the best part of that Living Single ep was Part 2, when Kyle stalked back onto the rooftop, smacked that pump on the wall, and asked (ok: demanded) Max to meet him for dinner that night.

Just sayin'.

I have to defend TeenRandall's behavior here.  *Some girls might have found it super-romantic that for a first date, the boy showed up in a jacket & tie, with flowers.  Not late & in sweats.  I found it sweet and very in character.  And I also thought his TMI confession endearing.  Probably because I'm older now.  It wasn't gross; it wasn't a soliloquy; but it was "Here is something of who I am; I'm telling you upfront."  Beth is the one who denied who she was (a dancer) on their first date.  Sorry, but if you say that's who you are upfront, then admit the truth years later, some adjusting might be necessary.

That's not to say Beth wasn't justified in being taken aback (though we've met her loving, demonstrative dad, who has that in common with her husband, so this kind of man was hardly foreign to her).

And it's undoubtedly my TCM addiction, but I've seen plenty of movies where a first-time meeting inspires a "Gonna marry that girl/guy" (along with knowing a few of the same couples IRL), so that seemed in character -- and a bit sweet -- too.

ps: Together for seven years before you take him to your nachogingerbeer place?  That's on *you, Beth.  That shoulda been your SECOND date.

[woodstock]

Lots to process in this episode. I need to re-watch.

That final shot of Beth staring at the bed gutted me.

And I am still pissed about the ‘pre-pay before you eat’ policy at that restaurant. Beth was completely right to get up and walk out!

[buttersister]

Show spent season one making the family lovable and amazing. Moving on to see below the surface/conflicts seems like the story they set out to tell over time. I’m okay as long as the story is well told. 

FYI, Beth, he’s done this forever and you? Enabled him. See you two next week, Dr. Buttersister.

[woodstock]

3 hours ago, memememe76 said:

Anyone know anything about the school they attended? The name does not ring a bell to this Canadian. 

Carnegie Mellon is in Pittsburgh. It has a reputation of being a great research university. My cousin graduated from there four years ago with a degree in Biology.

[Belle Fleures]

I know it hasn't been easy this season. We're seeing darker facets of the Pearson family, and it's uncomfortable, not so "feel good." We'd love to just see the good, sweet characteristics of the people in that family. But they're human, and complex as we all are. Honestly, I haven't liked this season very much. I am especially disliking Rebecca (she never tells her family to respect Miguel, and is always bringing up Jack around him, making it very clear that he'll never be good enough for her) and Beth, and Toby a little too (talk about grabbing the rotting, low-hanging fruit with that joke at Miguel's expense, when he was doing nothing but being supportive and trying to take their minds off of Kate's pregnancy drama). Despite all that, though, I started watching this show to follow the lives of a human, flawed, basically good family and will stick around for next season.

That said, I am Team Randall. TeenRandall went all-in his date with Beth, and one can tell he was raised correctly. The suit, the flowers, the fancy restaurant -- he was showing Beth that he was a young gentleman with true feelings for her, and that she, in his mind, deserved to be treated right, likd a queen. That she, in return, showed up in sweats and belittled his actions, demonstrates to me that she was still mentally an immature child. I don't think that has changed much, noting how she guilted Randall in a previous episode about not getting to her recital in time to hear the name-drop/praise. Randall peppering their relationship over seven years with proposals was, I think, a result of his anxiety, that constant fear that he might lose someone precious to him if he didn't secure her with marriage. She said she wanted them to be equals, yet it seemed she had all the power to dictate the when and how of a proposal with no compromise. Her passive-aggressiveness is insufferable. I didn't see Randall tenderly kissing her, telling her to go on her 24-hour vacation, and asking which episode she was going to watch as manipulative or guilting; I saw it as he understood and was just trying to lighten the mood/air -- if Beth felt guilty and swayed to cancel her break, that's totally on her. Rebecca was right: Beth is NOT a wallflower; she's fiery and opinionated and has no problem arguing and demanding what she wants. She has the claws of a cat and knows how to dig -- her catty line to Randall after he insisted he needed her to keep her promise and come to the dinner to support him proves that. If Beth wants us to believe she's been nothing but meek and submissive for 20 years in this marriage, she's going to have to work harder on convincing me. When she made that low-blow about "between which of your anxiety attacks" to Randall, I said out-loud right then, "Okay, that makes you both even," but I agree with a previous comment that Beth went even lower than Randall had. As someone who struggles with anxiety, I can say that we despise our anxiety and how it mars our lives and it's not something that can just be blown away like a pile of dandelion fluff. Randall insulted her career, but she insulted the weakness of his person, hating on him.

Also, I think Randall was completely justified in wanting to come home, sleep in his own home, and finish the fight then and there. The house is just as much Randall's as it is Beth's, it's big enough for the both of them, and Beth is not entitled to be the queen in the castle while she sends her king to sleep among the peasants. If she wants them to be equals, as she says, then it doesn't work like that.

All said, I think they can get through this with counseling and open communication. They're two very different types of people, but then I think that's what attracted them to each other in the first place.

[NUguy514]

3 hours ago, memememe76 said:

Loved the episode. While I can understand the frustration that nothing was really resolved, I loved knowing more about how the two met, what shows they like, etc. 

I guess I saw very little wrong with how young Randall behaved. And I think it is very nice that Randall saw his mom every Sunday. I will take that over all of the other shows where teens are constantly insulting their parents.

Anyone know anything about the school they attended? The name does not ring a bell to this Canadian. 

Carnegie Mellon is a top-25 university, one of the best in the country, and is particularly renowned for its top programs in acting and computer science.

2 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

It’s gotten to the point where I watch clips and read comments rather than sitting through the show. I watched the fight on twitter and thought Beth was way too harsh. “And you let me do it.” The Hell? You’re blaming HIM for your choice? And since I’m irritated that dance met nothing to Beth so far as we viewers knew until two episodes ago, I’m not convinced (she never watches it talks about it does anything else with it)...

his voicemail was angry and low. But her comment about his anxiety attacks suggested that she resents his weakness. And that’s... not just disrespecting a career choice. That’s unloving. That’s like saying you resent someone gaining weight or going bald. It’s much worse. Nobody sick would EVER want to feel a spouse was giving up life to be with them.

counseling would help...

but back to the show- I’ll watch at some point but I just don’t love this show anymore, and wouldn’t recommend it. The writing is contrived and unsurprising. I find the acting to go for the obvious too. It used to make me cry... I think perhaps it’s run out of steam 

If you haven't watched the entire episode, then you're commenting without any real information.  If you saw just the fight at the very end, you really cannot say that Beth was way too harsh.

I thought this episode was decidedly pro-Beth.  Throughout the episode, we were shown instances where Randall steamrolled right over Beth in service of his own wants and desires, which he managed to convince himself and others were best for all.  Beth laid out so many whims and impulses in the last few years that she has willingly supported; when she finally chooses to pursue something she loves, he can't return the favor because Randall is, at his core, utterly self-centered.  It's allllllll about him, and the real issue is that he, like many good-hearted but utterly self-centered people, has convinced himself that the opposite is true.  He can't or won't hear Beth's side on any of this because doing so might cause him to have to see that he is even infinitesimally imperfect.  What does he do instead?  Gaslight her: "No, that's revisionist history."  "What you're saying to me is wrong."  "How dare you, I'm a Good Guy."  Her cut about his anxiety attacks was low, but it came directly after she related her side of the street to him only for him, again some more, to respond with "Nope, sorry, but no, you're wrong about everything."  Her response was mean, but it wasn't unprovoked because of the exchange that came immediately before.  She immediately apologizes, as she should (and which Randall himself cannot do about anything meaningful ever), and Randall gets to feel in the most unjustifiable way like a morally superior victim: "Wow, I would never.  I can't even look at you right now.  I'm going to Philly so you can think about how horrible you are."  That's not pro-Randall at all, to me; if the writers intended it to be pro-Randall, or even neutral, they failed a million percent.

They can certainly move past this with therapy, but that will require Randall to be willing to admit to his side of the street.  I don't know that he can do that (look at how he reacted during the family therapy session while Kevin was in rehab).  He has no ability to self-reflect; maybe, hopefully, that will change.

ETA: Uh, I apparently watched an entirely different episode than the Belle Fleures, and I'll just say that almost nothing about what Randall did on their first date was defensible and that Beth's wearing a sweatshirt made sense since she probably thought they were going to have pizza or something before Mr. Grand Gesture surprised her with that too-fancy-for-a-first-date restaurant.  They're freshmen in college, for chrissakes.

Edited March 27, 2019 by NUguy514

[bros402]

So Randall did that horrible voicemail last episode and Beth goes for the throat with that anxiety attack comment. Maybe they'll both realize they went a bit too far, Randall resigns from the councilman position, have a company manage the apartment building, and figure out what he wants to do

[brokenwing29]

3 hours ago, Christina87 said:

It's so strange from a twenty-first century adult perspective, where a date is always a swipe away! I get that Randall was eighteen, and of course thought his crush was "the one," but after you've dated awhile, you go on enough so-so first dates (and great ones!) that don't go anywhere that it becomes normal, and  bad dates...well, there is no way you would consider going out again, much less proclaim you're going to marry the person! As an adult in 2019, you have hundreds of potentials dates at your fingertips, and I can't imagine being so certain a date was "the one" that I'm hung up on them after a terrible first date!

Sometimes there are glaring signs early on that you're wrong for someone. I'd imagine beth saying to never call her again was a big sign, as well as the smaller signs of her reluctance to commit, and the fact that they are both alphas. I'm glad that they have made it work, as no relationship is perfect, and it seems they've worked out well all things considered.

It just makes me wonder what would have happened if Randall had said, "you know, plenty of girls would love my romantic gesture! We're just obviously different in that way. No biggie; I'll ask out that cute girl in chemistry class next week! And maybe I'll take that 'don't overshare' advice to heart." I wonder if Randall and Beth both would be ended up with someone more suited to them if he hadn't been so persistent, and they'd both had a chance to date around to find a good fit. I'm absolutely not saying I don't like them as a couple, because I do, but it's interesting to see how they ended up together, because a lot of us would have walked away and never thought about it again!

Oh, online dating was totally a thing in 1998, especially for young people. Even if they were the only two black students at the college (and it's totally weird if they felt pressured to try dating for that reason), they would have both had plenty of alternatives. I agree with people who have said that Randall was strange for continuing to pursue Beth after she made it clear she wasn't interested. I know that kind of thing is supposed to be cute on kiddie shows, but it's not appropriate in real life. It's like he already had it in his head that she was his future wife (knowing little about her other than he was attracted to her) and winning her over was just another challenge to overcome.

[Chewy101]

The show has already revealed to us that Randall and Beth get divorced, so rooting for this couple is moot. Randall is exhausting. They are both human, which means they are going to suck at times, but it's obvious nothing makes him happy. He always needs more, more. And if he expects Beth to pick up the slack for his idealistic dreams, he picked the wrong girl. His endless speeches and demands on her were ridiculous. I see a man who thinks he is doing good, but doesn't realize how manipulative he actually is. But both of these people are insane to think they can be disgusting helicopter parents and still have so much else going on. You don't get to have it all. They don't seem to get that. They would have been great parents in my generation, where we happily hopped off the school bus, let ourselves into the house, made a snack, watched tv, and did our homework. We didn't need a cheerleader rooting us on to get stuff done. And it never occurred to us that our parents had to obsess over every little thing we did. Between foster kid and two very needy parents, the amount of attention needed by these people is impossible.

Anyway, since we know they don't make it, the whole episode was basically just explaining their demise, not a battle to root for. 

[Belle Fleures]

18 minutes ago, NUguy514 said:

ETA: Uh, I apparently watched an entirely different episode than the Belle Fleures, and I'll just say that almost nothing about what Randall did on their first date was defensible and that Beth's wearing a sweatshirt made sense since she probably thought they were going to have pizza or something before Mr. Grand Gesture surprised her with that too-fancy-for-a-first-date restaurant.  They're freshmen in college, for chrissakes.

A freshman in college is a young adult, certainly old enough to start thinking seriously about love and the future of marriage.  Dressing right, gifting flowers, and taking someone to a quality restaurant instead of a McDonald's parking lot is not so much a "grand gesture" as it is having class.

[Ana88]

Wow this episode. I wasn't looking forward to it and thought it was going to be a drag, but it hit me on so many emotions. I feel like everyone who has ever been in a serious long term relationship could relate to so many little funny and sad details. I know I could. 

I'm shocked that some of you are saying they are incompatible and this episode shows that. Is that really true? Doesn't all marriages have some kind of these same old things that come up in arguments? Isn't it all about how you deal with it and if you're willing to really listen and make compromises? 

[Chewy101]

7 minutes ago, brokenwing29 said:

It just makes me wonder what would have happened if Randall had said, "you know, plenty of girls would love my romantic gesture! We're just obviously different in that way. No biggie; I'll ask out that cute girl in chemistry class next week! And maybe I'll take that 'don't overshare' advice to heart." I wonder if Randall and Beth both would be ended up with someone more suited to them if he hadn't been so persistent, and they'd both had a chance to date around to find a good fit. I'm absolutely not saying I don't like them as a couple, because I do, but it's interesting to see how they ended up together, because a lot of us would have walked away and never thought about it again!

Randall is creepy because he cannot take no for an answer. Ever. And it only gets worse the older they get. 

[pennben]

10 minutes ago, Chewy101 said:

The show has already revealed to us that Randall and Beth get divorced, so rooting for this couple is moot....

I think  you are assuming facts that aren’t in evidence based on a very intentionally ambiguous flasforward!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

That Was Us:

[RachelKM]

1 hour ago, NUguy514 said:

He can't or won't hear Beth's side on any of this because doing so might cause him to have to see that he is even infinitesimally imperfect.  What does he do instead?  Gaslight her: "No, that's revisionist history."  "What you're saying to me is wrong."  "How dare you, I'm a Good Guy."  Her cut about his anxiety attacks was low, but it came directly after she related her side of the street to him only for him, again some more, to respond with "Nope, sorry, but no, you're wrong about everything."  Her response was mean, but it wasn't unprovoked because of the exchange that came immediately before. 

All of this.  I actually thought her anxiety attacks comment was the most real part of the conversation.  

Just because the other person has a legitimate emotional/mood disorder and isn't doing it on purpose doesn't mean his or her actions don't have consequences for everyone else.  And all the love and understanding in the world doesn't make that not suck sometimes.  It isn't so much that you resent it; but it is exhausting feeling like you never have the luxury to break because the other person likely will.

Beth laid out the many ways she has accommodated him over the course of their relationship, just the last year on the show was no joke, and all he could come back with was calling it revisionist history and telling her that her timing deciding to finally do something for herself sucked.  But seriously, when was a good time? When he was having breakdowns?  When he was moving family members both known and unknown into their house?  When he was buying apartment buildings while unemployed?  Running for city counsel a state away and then refusing to withdraw despite promising to?  So she snapped back at him.

And boy is Randall his father's son.  He's the direct heir of Saint Jack, the patron saint of grand romantic gestures and unilateral decision. (Jack was fascinating and wonderful in many ways, but dude... the wagon purchase? The house? Oy.) He even inherited his dad's single focused romantic determination in deciding Reb ...er.. Beth was THE ONE on the barest of meetings. (Though even Jack seemed more prepared to take a hint.)

And yeah, that dinner was WAY over the top for 18 year old freshmen in college.  At that age, Olive Garden was a bit fancy (and out of my budget). I would have been at a loss for what to do if a guy showed up for a first date, a first date with almost no prior social interaction, in a suit and took me to a dinner at a fine dining restaurant.  Heck, I'm a 40 year old attorney and I'd still find that to be a bit over the top. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Still Team Beth. While I agree that her comment about his anxiety attacks was hurtful, to me there is a big difference between what she said and Randall's message last week.

Randall was claiming that he would have supported her desire to teach dance if it had happened at any other point in their marriage (this coming from the man who guilt tripped his wife about wanting to spend ONE DAY by herself after the kids were born), which assumes that he would have been willing to adjust his schedule and his priorities to support what she wanted to do and take some of the onus of doing stuff around the house (like childcare, cooking, cleaning, and generally taking care of everyone). Beth's response was, "When would I have done that? Between which of your anxiety attacks?"

Beth was shown in past seasons to be supportive of Randall when he was having his anxiety attacks, and that's great because he was going through a lot, but that doesn't mean that it didn't also take a toll ON HER. That's just the truth. No, it's not Randall's fault that he has anxiety just like it's not someone's fault if they have cancer or any other sort of illness, but it's still hard on the patient's partner (as well as their family and friends, but the brunt is usually borne primarily by the patient's partner). And if Randall wants to claim that he would have supported Beth's desire to teach dance at any time, that's not 100% true because he would have been in no position to do so while he was having all those anxiety attacks and going blind with stress.

Again, I'm not blaming Randall for these things because it's not his fault that he was having these problems, but I think he also took it for granted that Beth was fine working, taking care of the kids, cooking, cleaning, and being his emotional support system, not realizing how stressful it was for HER. Maybe it's hard to hear that, but that doesn't make it any less true. Being put in a position where she had to take care of him was hard on her. I don't think anyone's partner can get through an illness without it taking a huge toll on them. To me, this was Beth pointing out that (1) she took on a lot and (2) his claim that he would have supported her decision AT ANY TIME before now is not true. I don't think she said it to be deliberately hurtful (she immediately looked like she regretted saying it which is why I think it slipped out rather than being something she said on purpose to hurt him). I think she said it because it's true and it's something that he hasn't considered AT ALL.

In contrast, Randall's message served no purpose but to be mean and hurtful to her by belittling her job and hence her choice to do it and her sense of self.

When Randall said her awakening came twenty years too late, I just rolled my eyes. Apparently it was okay for Randall to have all his epiphanies and realizations in the last three years and it was okay for his "I want to run for city council" awakening to happen NOW but there was a clock running on Beth's realizations and she should have known twenty years ago that she wanted to teach dance.

Also in favor of Team Beth: like Beth, a public proposal on the Jumbotron at a Pirates game would get an automatic HELL NO response from me too.

Re: college Randall's behavior with Beth before and during their first date - Lindy West described the boys who pursued her college roommate (coincidentally named Beth) thusly:

She once mentioned, offhand on the quad, that she wanted one of those Leatherman multi-tools, and a few days later one appeared, sans note, in her campus mailbox. In retrospect, these years were a nonstop, fucked-up carnivale of male entitlement (the Leatherman was particularly creepy, the subtext being "I'm watching you"), one young man after another endowing Beth with whatever cocktail of magic dream-girl qualities he was sure would "complete" him, and laboring under the old lie that wearing a girl down is "seduction."

4 hours ago, voiceover said:

Beth is the one who denied who she was (a dancer) on their first date.  Sorry, but if you say that's who you are upfront, then admit the truth years later, some adjusting might be necessary.

She didn't deny that she was a dancer. Randall said he thought she would want to study dance instead of architecture. She said, "I used to dance, but not anymore."

2 hours ago, brokenwing29 said:

Oh, online dating was totally a thing in 1998, especially for young people.

It definitely was a thing back then! I remember I met a girl in 1997 and she was already married to a guy she'd met through an online dating site. She said sometimes they just told people that they met through friends when they didn't want to go through the same old "OMG, you met on THE INTERNET? Is that safe?" conversation with older people.

Edited March 27, 2019 by ElectricBoogaloo
typo

[debraran]

I thought the show was predictable but did show some things I didn't expect, Rebecca on their dates? That small thing was odd to me, but I guess it shows how protective Randall was. Had Jack been dead one year or more because the dating reference to me seemed odd from Beth but understandable she wanted her gone. Their are other things than men to keep you busy! : )

My husband is black and I'm white and I suggested leaving a Chinese restaurant that gave us horrible service on a date (while other patrons were served first who came later) Not quite the same but my then boyfriend I feel didn't want to bring attention to it or ruin my date. He was glad I saw it though and we did leave. I don't blame Randall for trying to be nice even though it was wrong.

People change over 20 years and many times the young woman wants more and it takes compromise and thought to do it. I didn't like the 20 year comment and I just don't understand why childcare is the bottom of this? Is Deja needing "high quality" au pair after school care and his very different gay daughter who obviously needs a special 2-3 hour  person to sit in the house  and maybe make dinner?  I'm sorry, you don't disintegrate a marriage over this.

I was so tired during the previews, I wondered about the accident, was that present time with Rebecca?  Nothing that do with baby Jack gives me any anxiety, he'll be fine, but I wondered about that.

Edited March 27, 2019 by debraran

[Arcadiasw]

6 hours ago, meggonzo said:

How does a first date end with one person saying don't call me again, and the other person goes home and tells his roommate this is the girl he's going to marry?! Gross. 

It reminds of The Simpsons episode where teen Marge tells Homer she hates him and after she storms out, Homer calls Barney and tells him he has a date for the prom. 

This fight was a long time coming and fights where things are buried for a long time can turn ugly. Beth and Randall needed to have this fight. Flash forward can be deceptive so I'm not sure if they are divorced but they need serious counseling. 

[voiceover]

1 hour ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

She didn't deny that she was a dancer. Randall said he thought she would want to study dance instead of architecture. She said, "I used to dance, but not anymore."

You've misunderstood my comment.  I heard what she said.  I mean, she blew off the "dancer" inquiry like it was didn't mean much more than choosing a different major.  She didn't mention that she'd danced for years and that the change of direction had been dearly bought. 

Not in her character, to be sure.  But to dig up a dream deferred is going to shake the ground you've buried it under.  I think that's part of what they're experiencing.

Maybe these two aren't exactly right for each other.  Maybe Jack & Rebecca weren't either.  Lots of long marriages are composed of same. (Lots of divorces too). I hope Season 4 is Therapy Season.  

[lucindabelle]

This is not the show I used to like. Randall and Beth WERE well suited in season one.  There’s a reason these episodes are on my DVR for weeks until I get around to them. I guess missing Jack and backstory more than I realized. These angry, self involved people just don’t interest me.

oh and: Carnegie Mellon in 1997 and 98 had a lot of black students! I know, I was doing my grad work at Pitt at that time down the street. CMU also has a great dance department.

it still really bugs me that Beth was perfectly healthy and based on one failure and one conversation didn’t pursue ANY kind of dance. I have rheumatoid arthritis and HAD to give up classical violin. I’ve had multiple surgeries over the years to be able to play (irish fiddle now) and all I can think of isnthat if she didn’t find her way back to movement when she physically could have that’s on HER. Not her mom. Not her teacher. 

Edited March 27, 2019 by lucindabelle

[Johnny Dollar]

Randall: “l’m going to find my birth father, and it will consume my entire life.”  Beth: “l’m with you baby.”

Randall: “I found my birth father and he’s an almost homeless guy with cancer. I’m going to move him in with us and have him sleep in one of the girls’ rooms.”  Beth: “I’m with you baby.”

Randall: “I’m not the favorite at work anymore, so I’m going to quit my million dollar job with no other prospect for income.”  Beth: “l’m with you baby.”

Randall: “Because of my feelings of guilt at the fact that I had a nice upbringing, I’m going to foster a child from the streets who has a multitude of problems.”  Beth: “I’m with you baby.”

Randall: “I’m going to sink most of our money into the rundown death trap building where I found my father and I’m going to need you to help me.”  Beth: “I’m with you baby.”

Randall: “I’m going to run for City Council in Philly, despite us not living there, and it being a six hour round trip drive every day, with very little pay.”  Beth: “l’m with you baby.”

Beth:  “l would like to teach a few dance classes at night just so I have something to do that I enjoy.”  Randall: “How can you be so selfish?”

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Credit where credit's due - thank goodness Kevin nixed Randall's original wedding vows which did sound like a boring six page dissertation on marriage.

1 hour ago, debraran said:

Rebecca on their dates? That small thing was odd to me, but I guess it shows how protective Randall was. Had Jack been dead one year or more because the dating reference to me seemed odd from Beth but understandable she wanted her gone. Their are other things than men to keep you busy! : )

They went miniature golfing the night that Randall proposed again at their apartment. Beth said that they had been together for seven years so Jack had been dead for over seven years at that point.

[GodsBeloved]

14 hours ago, ShortyMac said:

While Beth's comment about Randall's anxiety was low, it was true. Someone had to keep it together while he was spiraling.

I thought the same thing ... but now that it's morning I'm wondering how bad Randall's anxiety was. We saw his break in season 1 but the "solution" we got was Kevin leaving his play to go to Randall. 

We know Beth worked and she had 2 children so now I'm not sure how Beth doing ballet instead of the job she had would have been any more of a detriment to her family. Was it that she wanted to pursue dancing instead of teaching and dancing would require tons more of her time?

Edited March 27, 2019 by GodsBeloved

[ezzylin]

1 hour ago, icemiser69 said:

Ginger beer?  Given the area in which they grew up in, I would have thought for sure that birch beer would have been the preferred

I think that Beth's love of ginger beer was a nod to her Jamaican heritage.

Edited March 27, 2019 by ezzylin

[GodsBeloved]

8 hours ago, LaJefaza said:

What I find interesting, and VERY telling, are the different reactions after the 'bombs' were dropped throughout the night. Beth apologized immediately after her anxiety comment, of course validating Randall's peeved feelings and facilitating him departing in a self righteous huff. Randall, however, unless I missed it, has YET to apologize for insulting both Beth and her students. His response after she turned up at the dinner (meaning he had got his way) was to say "I went off, I wasn't my best self, I'd appreciate it if you deleted the message." Sir, WHERE is the apology?

Agreed. Randall was justifying his behavior.

[GodsBeloved]

8 hours ago, LaJefaza said:

And to deny he was steamrolling her, even when she had the receipts? Even when she listed out a mere handful of the many times she has bent over backwards to give him whatever the hell he was demanding time and time again? He just CANNOT stop trying to gaslight her. I don't think he can even help himself. He has been raised to believe he's the center of the universe and that everyone is here to make sure everything comes up Randall. He can't even see what he's doing wrong. 

This is interesting because he just accused Kevin of always coming out on top.

[GodsBeloved]

7 hours ago, WhosThatGirl said:

Also can I just say when Randall claimed he would not say something awful and horrible about Beth’s new career path(re like Jack did with Rebecca and the fight he witnessed) didn’t he in that voicemail? 

He did 

[txhorns79]

1 hour ago, Johnny Dollar said:

Randall: “l’m going to find my birth father, and it will consume my entire life.”  Beth: “l’m with you baby.”

Randall: “I found my birth father and he’s an almost homeless guy with cancer. I’m going to move him in with us and have him sleep in one of the girls’ rooms.”  Beth: “I’m with you baby.”

Randall: “I’m not the favorite at work anymore, so I’m going to quit my million dollar job with no other prospect for income.”  Beth: “l’m with you baby.”

Randall: “Because of my feelings of guilt at the fact that I had a nice upbringing, I’m going to foster a child from the streets who has a multitude of problems.”  Beth: “I’m with you baby.”

Randall: “I’m going to sink most of our money into the rundown death trap building where I found my father and I’m going to need you to help me.”  Beth: “I’m with you baby.”

Randall: “I’m going to run for City Council in Philly, despite us not living there, and it being a six hour round trip drive every day, with very little pay.”  Beth: “l’m with you baby.”

Beth:  “l would like to teach a few dance classes at night just so I have something to do that I enjoy.”  Randall: “How can you be so selfish?” 

A thousand times this.  I'll never get over the stupidity of Randall running for and being elected to a council position in a city and state where he does not reside.

[ShadowFacts]

3 hours ago, RachelKM said:

And boy is Randall his father's son.  He's the direct heir of Saint Jack, the patron saint of grand romantic gestures and unilateral decision. (Jack was fascinating and wonderful in many ways, but dude... the wagon purchase? The house? Oy.) He even inherited his dad's single focused romantic determination in deciding Reb ...er.. Beth was THE ONE on the barest of meetings. (Though even Jack seemed more prepared to take a hint.)

And yeah, that dinner was WAY over the top for 18 year old freshmen in college.  At that age, Olive Garden was a bit fancy (and out of my budget). I would have been at a loss for what to do if a guy showed up for a first date, a first date with almost no prior social interaction, in a suit and took me to a dinner at a fine dining restaurant.  Heck, I'm a 40 year old attorney and I'd still find that to be a bit over the top. 

The first date was all about Randall channeling Jack. Yes, over the top, that's the coin of their realm. He was also taking advice from Kevin, who is successful at the game. So he obviously thought he was doing the right things. It's not wrong to want to make a good impression. People really do have the feeling they have met the person they'll marry, I know a few, including my husband. But yeah, taking things to the level of the Jumbotron proprosal, that would be problematic for me. That's not listening to the previously stated 'I'm not ready yet.' Flowers and a suit and a nice restaurant as an opening move, not terrible.

[GodsBeloved]

3 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

When Randall said her awakening came twenty years too late, I just rolled my eyes. Apparently it was okay for Randall to have all his epiphanies and realizations in the last three years and it was okay for his "I want to run for city council" awakening to happen NOW but there was a clock running on Beth's realizations and she should have known twenty years ago that she wanted to teach dance.

Love the entire post but this right here ... 

Man, there is no way I believe Randall would have supported Beth back then if doing so meant he had to give up something. 

[GodsBeloved]

3 hours ago, debraran said:

I was so tired during the previews, I wondered about the accident, was that present time with Rebecca?  Nothing that do with baby Jack gives me any anxiety, he'll be fine, but I wondered about that.

No it was kid Big 3 time.

[GodsBeloved]

1 hour ago, Johnny Dollar said:

Randall: “l’m going to find my birth father, and it will consume my entire life.”  Beth: “l’m with you baby.”

Randall: “I found my birth father and he’s an almost homeless guy with cancer. I’m going to move him in with us and have him sleep in one of the girls’ rooms.”  Beth: “I’m with you baby.”

Randall: “I’m not the favorite at work anymore, so I’m going to quit my million dollar job with no other prospect for income.”  Beth: “l’m with you baby.”

Randall: “Because of my feelings of guilt at the fact that I had a nice upbringing, I’m going to foster a child from the streets who has a multitude of problems.”  Beth: “I’m with you baby.”

Randall: “I’m going to sink most of our money into the rundown death trap building where I found my father and I’m going to need you to help me.”  Beth: “I’m with you baby.”

Randall: “I’m going to run for City Council in Philly, despite us not living there, and it being a six hour round trip drive every day, with very little pay.”  Beth: “l’m with you baby.”

Beth:  “l would like to teach a few dance classes at night just so I have something to do that I enjoy.”  Randall: “How can you be so selfish?”

[jmonique]

6 hours ago, Belle Fleures said:

Also, I think Randall was completely justified in wanting to come home, sleep in his own home, and finish the fight then and there. The house is just as much Randall's as it is Beth's, it's big enough for the both of them, and Beth is not entitled to be the queen in the castle while she sends her king to sleep among the peasants. If she wants them to be equals, as she says, then it doesn't work like that.

It wasn’t about being queen. It was a matter of respecting her wishes after demeaning her and her career. Randall was nasty and cold and used her yet again to further his whim of a career, and when she asked for space he of course wouldn’t give it to her. 

Because he’s Randall the Wonder Boy and has no concept of respect for his immediate family.

[Johnny Dollar]

Randall’s personality issues can be summed up in the fact that both he and Beth lost their fathers while still in high school, but only he uses that experience as an excuse for his “poor me” selfish behavior. Beth’s loss of a very important person in her life can’t even compare to his unspeakable tragedy. This whole family should have gone to therapy twenty years ago. 

[Ohiopirate02]

The flashback to Beth and Randall before they got engaged was all kinds of wrong on Randall and Rebecca's part.  Randall, when you want to propose to your girlfriend in an obnoxious way like the jumbotron at a sporting event, you need to clear this with her family first.  One phone call to Beth's mom, one of her sisters, or Zoe would have shown you the error of your ways very easily.  But no, you know best so that is the way you are going.  Then at the minigolf course, you badger Beth about her not accepting the proposal to the point where she loses it.  Instead of actually listening to the woman you claim you love, you storm off in a huff.  But Rebecca's behavior takes the cake.  She could spoken up to put Randall in his place, but she stays silent.  She could have gone after Randall to point out how he was the one ruining their day and how he needs to calm down and listen to Beth.  But no, she goes to speak to Beth about how much Randall loves her almost guilting her into accepting the proposal.  No wonder Randall is so self-centered and has control issues.  

[ElectricBoogaloo]

3 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Rebecca's behavior takes the cake.  She could spoken up to put Randall in his place, but she stays silent.  She could have gone after Randall to point out how he was the one ruining their day and how he needs to calm down and listen to Beth.  But no, she goes to speak to Beth about how much Randall loves her almost guilting her into accepting the proposal.  No wonder Randall is so self-centered and has control issues.  

Even though I knew that obviously Beth was going to say yes to one of his proposals eventually, when he walked away at the miniature golf course, I was really hoping that Beth would tell him how tiresome the situation was (I mean, seriously, she said she wants to marry you, JUST NOT NOW and your response is to keep asking). She put up with Randall blithely inviting his mom on their date much better than would have too. The most disappointing thing is that after a day like that, what got her to say yes to his proposal was Rebecca with a Pearson Speech.

[GodsBeloved]

4 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

The flashback to Beth and Randall before they got engaged was all kinds of wrong on Randall and Rebecca's part.  Randall, when you want to propose to your girlfriend in an obnoxious way like the jumbotron at a sporting event, you need to clear this with her family first.  One phone call to Beth's mom, one of her sisters, or Zoe would have shown you the error of your ways very easily.  But no, you know best so that is the way you are going.  Then at the minigolf course, you badger Beth about her not accepting the proposal to the point where she loses it.  Instead of actually listening to the woman you claim you love, you storm off in a huff.  But Rebecca's behavior takes the cake.  She could spoken up to put Randall in his place, but she stays silent.  She could have gone after Randall to point out how he was the one ruining their day and how he needs to calm down and listen to Beth.  But no, she goes to speak to Beth about how much Randall loves her almost guilting her into accepting the proposal.  No wonder Randall is so self-centered and has control issues.  

I still don't know why Rebecca was on that date in the first place.

Poor Beth didn't know she was dating Randall AND Rebecca!

[GodsBeloved]

Nitpick.

Why couldn't we see Beth's siblings? I mean Beth is standing there and who is next to her? Kate!! Why not her sister(s)/Zoe?

This is as irritating as Randall proclaiming "We're getting another Pearson" when he got the news that Kate was pregnant. No Randall, you are getting a Damon!

Rant over.

Edited March 27, 2019 by GodsBeloved

[Guinnessgirl]

I guess for me I don't get why the girls can't do their own laundry, make their lunches, put the dishes in the dishwasher, etc..  I feel like R & B do way too much for them which is causing additional strain.  Just my opinion.  

[Good Queen Jane]

11 hours ago, Laurie4H said:

Who would really come up with a long analogy like that? 

You haven't hung out with the Pearsons much, have you?

Dammit, Show, now you made me hate Beth too. That anxiety attack statement was really a low blow. I hope the two get into couple therapy.

7 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

Why couldn't we see Beth's siblings? I mean Beth is standing there and who is next to her? Kate!! Why not her sister(s)/Zoe?

I think we did see (briefly) Beth's siblings. There was an  African- American bridesmaid and groomsman. And it looked like Phylicia Rashad (although I doubt that it was) who put down the broom R&B jumped.

[GodsBeloved]

7 minutes ago, Good Queen Jane said:

I think we did see (briefly) Beth's siblings. There was an  African- American bridesmaid and groomsman. And it looked like Phylicia Rashad (although I doubt that it was) who put down the broom R&B jumped.

True. I saw that just now but just like the "brother" was next to Kevin, not Randall, the "sister" should have been next Beth not Kate. 

Kevin was best man and by Kate's placement it looked like she was Maid of Honor.

Edited March 27, 2019 by GodsBeloved

[Blakeston]

4 hours ago, Belle Fleures said:

When she made that low-blow about "between which of your anxiety attacks" to Randall, I said out-loud right then, "Okay, that makes you both even," but I agree with a previous comment that Beth went even lower than Randall had. As someone who struggles with anxiety, I can say that we despise our anxiety and how it mars our lives and it's not something that can just be blown away like a pile of dandelion fluff. Randall insulted her career, but she insulted the weakness of his person, hating on him.

I don't think she was hating on him or calling him a weak person. I think she was pointing out that she wasn't in a position to follow her dreams when she was supporting him through the periods when he was falling apart with anxiety.

My biggest issue with it was that Randall has had very few anxiety attacks in the time they've been together. He had one when she was pregnant with Tess, and he had another in season one when the pressure at his job was insane, and William was dying.

But for many years, he was able to handle an extremely stressful job, and being a father. On the list of reasons why Beth wasn't in a position to pursue his dreams, I'd put Randall's anxiety quite low on the list. It was an unnecessary jab, IMO.

[Lady Calypso]

I think eighteen year old Randall had the right idea in the first date. It's not his fault that Beth wasn't into it. He did put effort in it and it was noble. But Randall's issue is always going over the top. He was aiming for perfection but didn't seem to realize that maybe, just maybe, an eighteen year old girl wouldn't be into some five star fancy restaurant. He definitely could have toned it down and chosen somewhere less fancy, but I don't fault him for that. He wanted to impress her, thought that he could, and Beth had to let him down gently. What I do fault Randall for is going to his roommate afterward and assuming that was a great date that would surely end in marriage. I'm sorry, but when TV shows have the guy pronounce that he's going to marry some girl shortly after meeting her and barely knowing anything about her, I find it creepy. I know it can happen in real life, but it's still creepy. 

6 hours ago, Chewy101 said:

The show has already revealed to us that Randall and Beth get divorced, so rooting for this couple is moot.

Technically, we don't know for sure that they're divorced. The flash forwards hinted that they may be, but it hasn't been confirmed so they can still pull another bait and switch.

Besides, I'm positive that Beth/Randall won't get divorced in present day. They may separate but I think they'll keep the couple together.

6 hours ago, Belle Fleures said:

A freshman in college is a young adult, certainly old enough to start thinking seriously about love and the future of marriage.  Dressing right, gifting flowers, and taking someone to a quality restaurant instead of a McDonald's parking lot is not so much a "grand gesture" as it is having class.

My first date in university was going over to the guy's apartment, eating mac and cheese, and then hanging out in his room and playing  video games. I would have hated going out to some fancy place where I had to get dressed up just for a first date. It all depends on the person, for sure. But most eighteen year olds are still in that high school mindset. They're still very much immature, for the most part, and a good chunk of them may not be thinking about fancy rich dinners and dressing up in formal wear or getting married. I'm twenty five years old and I'm not at that stage where I'm ready for marriage. 

Randall gave it a try, which is nice, but it turns out that Beth simply wasn't into any of it. That's ok too. He tried, she didn't like it, and it doesn't sound like he tried doing the same thing again. I don't fault Randall for trying and I don't blame Beth for not liking it. I do question why they had her dress so opposite from Randall, but I think that was more of a directional choice, to contrast the two so blatantly. It was still odd and I think they should have allowed Beth to at least not wear sweats on their first date. I'm not saying that she needed to wear a dress, but they could have let her wear a normal top. But I blame the writing and the producers on that choice. 

[GodsBeloved]

3 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Randall gave it a try, which is nice, but it turns out that Beth simply wasn't into any of it. That's ok too. He tried, she didn't like it, and it doesn't sound like he tried doing the same thing again. I don't fault Randall for trying and I don't blame Beth for not liking it. I do question why they had her dress so opposite from Randall, but I think that was more of a directional choice, to contrast the two so blatantly. It was still odd and I think they should have allowed Beth to at least not wear sweats on their first date. I'm not saying that she needed to wear a dress, but they could have let her wear a normal top. But I blame the writing and the producers on that choice. 

As I was reading this and thinking about the opposite-ness of R&B, I thought of Whitley and Dwayne LOL 

But what I thought was hilarious was Beth saying Randall must be hot in that jacket and yet she's in that thick hoodie.

As to why she dressed so "down" (and I assume Randall told her where they were going), maybe Beth in her passive aggressive way was saying "Dude I'm not interested in you so let's get this over with".

[PRgal]

Maybe it's just how I was raised, but I wouldn't have showed up at the restaurant in a school sweatshirt (wearing a school sweatshirt is suuuuuuuuuch a freshman/frosh thing to do!!!) and jean skirt.  I mean, she would have told her roommate/floormates where she was going and they would have suggested something to wear, right?  And if SHE didn't have something, I'm sure she could have BORROWED something from someone.

Also, 2017-ish Beth:  I would have been firm and said, "no, Randall, I'm going to that hotel room to binge on Living Single and eat bon bons.  And that's final." 

[Lady Calypso]

1 minute ago, GodsBeloved said:

 As to why she dressed so "down" (and I assume Randall told her where they were going), maybe Beth in her passive aggressive way was saying "Dude I'm not interested in you so let's get this over with".

That would be odd because she did say yes to him. It seemed like she realized on the date that she wasn't interested, or else she could have said no.

My assumption is that Randall picked her up, saw what she was wearing, told her where they were going in case she wanted to change and Beth said that she was fine with what she was wearing. And Randall, being into her, just accepted her attire and drove them there. But even this doesn't make much sense because it still makes Beth look bad.

Honestly, it was a really dumb choice by the show. They simply could have had her wear something a little less casual, so it didn't look like she was utterly repulsed by Randall or not into him despite her having said yes to him. All they needed was to put her in a normal t-shirt, even if it was a plain colour. She said yes to him, which means that she was interested. So why make her dress like she's not going anywhere special? Is it because she felt obligated due to them being the only two black students on campus? Again, it doesn't match up with her saying yes to him on the phone and looking genuinely excited. 

[GodsBeloved]

OK on a lighter note. I'm feeling some kind of way.

We have seen baby in the womb Tess, baby Tess, adult Tess. Where is my Annie!!! I'm getting a second child complex and I'm not even a second child.

Oh and Kevin knows how to make pancakes. Who knew.

Edited March 27, 2019 by GodsBeloved

[PRgal]

3 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

That would be odd because she did say yes to him. It seemed like she realized on the date that she wasn't interested, or else she could have said no.

My assumption is that Randall picked her up, saw what she was wearing, told her where they were going in case she wanted to change and Beth said that she was fine with what she was wearing. And Randall, being into her, just accepted her attire and drove them there. But even this doesn't make much sense because it still makes Beth look bad.

Honestly, it was a really dumb choice by the show. They simply could have had her wear something a little less casual, so it didn't look like she was utterly repulsed by Randall or not into him despite her having said yes to him. All they needed was to put her in a normal t-shirt, even if it was a plain colour. She said yes to him, which means that she was interested. So why make her dress like she's not going anywhere special? Is it because she felt obligated due to them being the only two black students on campus? Again, it doesn't match up with her saying yes to him on the phone and looking genuinely excited. 

They were most certainly NOT the only black students on campus!  Carnegie Mellon is mostly white (and Asian), but there HAS to be more than two black kids there - even in the late 90s.  Were they in the same dorm and happen to be the only two black students there?  

[Ohmo]

7 hours ago, NUguy514 said:

They can certainly move past this with therapy, but that will require Randall to be willing to admit to his side of the street.  I don't know that he can do that (look at how he reacted during the family therapy session while Kevin was in rehab).  He has no ability to self-reflect; maybe, hopefully, that will change.

I think Beth also has to admit to some things on her side of the street.  The "And you made me" made me think of something else.  Beth only likes to be in charge of her own choices when things go well for her.  Randall didn't "make her" do anything.  She chose.  Reminded me of something she said to her mother about taking ballet away.  I didn't get a chance to comment on that episode, but I thought that was grossly unfair on Beth's part.  I thought her mother was quite sensible.  Her parents spent a freakin' fortune for years on her ballet training.  The reality was she was not good enough to dance for a company, and her father had just died.  Her mother, while strict, was correct.  They invested all they could in Beth's dancing.  It was now time to focus on something else.  Beth apologized to her mother, but she still lashed out, just like she did at Randall.  She seems to have an issue with being a responsible party in a situation.  She prefers to put it on someone else.

7 hours ago, Ana88 said:

I'm shocked that some of you are saying they are incompatible and this episode shows that. Is that really true?

I really feel that way.  Not that they both aren't decent people...because they are.  However, I hated this episode's lack of emotion or affection during their courtship.  It's like I said before.  We saw that they WERE together, but the WHY they were together was missing.  For Randall, it came across as his interpretation of what you do in college---you find someone to marry.  For Beth, it seemed like a business investment.  She had invested so much time into her relationship that she might as well marry Randall, but that isn't love.

[ShadowFacts]

10 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Honestly, it was a really dumb choice by the show. They simply could have had her wear something a little less casual, so it didn't look like she was utterly repulsed by Randall or not into him despite her having said yes to him. All they needed was to put her in a normal t-shirt, even if it was a plain colour. She said yes to him, which means that she was interested. So why make her dress like she's not going anywhere special? Is it because she felt obligated due to them being the only two black students on campus? Again, it doesn't match up with her saying yes to him on the phone and looking genuinely excited. 

I see that as part of the clunkiness of the writing of this episode. I guess they meant to show how crazy Randall was about her from the jump, but she was not so much. Then they jump ahead 7 years to when they are living together and she's school/career oriented and he's repeatedly proposing. Nothing in between.  Then the sort of absurdity of them writing their vows together, after she hadn't had the time and he had written a dissertation. Like they were contrasting them  too heavy-handedly. Put another way, there was zero subtlety and they were covering a long span of time awkwardly.