S02.E16: Believe

[Trini]

Quote

"Believe" - The new chief of surgery, Dr. Jackson Han (Daniel Dae Kim), believes Dr. Shaun Murphy is a liability more than an asset and works to keep him out of the operating room permanently.

Airdate: Feb. 25, 2019

[Lady Calypso]

Poor Shaun. I missed last week's episode so I'll have to watch that at some point. It does suck that his choice in residency was made for him, and Dr. Han certainly said some pretty wrong things about Shaun. He really upset Shaun at the end there, and Shaun's not known for showing as much emotion as he did at the end. Part of me can see why Dr. Han is worried about Shaun as a surgical resident soon to become a fellow when it comes to communicating with patients, but there are ways to work around that with Shaun and it feels like Dr. Han isn't even willing to compromise. He appreciates Shaun's help with the cases and has taken what he has diagnosed without dismissing it, but giving Shaun that little bit of hope and ripping it away is so cruel.

That being said, it's only taken fifteen episodes for Shaun to get a hospital-related plot that wasn't about Glassman or Lea, so that's nice. Shaun's been so disconnected from the actual medical storylines this season, besides working on cases, that it's nice to get him into something that isn't just about a case. I liked his scenes with Carly in pathology. 

So, Glassman doesn't get why Debbi might be a bit upset with him. Glassman has been so...oblivious about his treatment toward others during his treatment that I'm just surprised he really didn't get why Debbi was trying to turn him down. As much as I understand why Glassman did push Debbi away, he was quite rude about it and then seemed to jump back in this episode and acted like it didn't happen. So I'm glad she stood up to him.

Claire is still one of my favourites on this show and this episode furthered my reasoning why. She's a flawed character. She's nice and she's good toward her patients, but sometimes she CAN say and do the wrong thing and can get into her own biases about things, such as her discussion about religion with her patient (Clarence) at first. I found her to be a little bit pushy, even though she fixed it in the end. I like flawed characters and Claire, even with her good heart, is still flawed. 

I am impressed by Morgan and how much I do like her now. Same with Park, who handled the scene with Shaun very well. It's good to see someone like him and even Lim look out for Shaun (same with Claire when she stood up to Han). 

[thuganomics85]

I actually was randomly wondering whatever happened to Carly/Jasika Nicole's character from last season, so her returning was a pleasant surprise, and a good addition to the pathology subplot.  I do like that there seems to be some casual, fun rivalry between them and the surgeons (and if anyone would have appreciated the detective/beat cop comparisons, it would be Park!)  Overall, I do think the show did a good job at showing that pathology is an important job and Shaun can excel at it, but it's not the job he wants, and the surgical department is where he truly thrives, and can help the patients.

I'm glad Han is getting some pushback from Lim and Claire about his decision, even if I'm not sure it will help.  Again, trying to be generous, I can believe that he truly does think he is helping Shaun from his perspective, but I still think he is in the wrong, and doesn't realize how judgmental, close-minded, and even how offensive he is coming off here.  It just feels like as soon as heard that Shaun is autistic, he automatically figured he'd be a hinderance, and is simply cherry-picking situations to prove his pre-conceived notions, and ignoring everything that Shaun does bring to the table.  In the end, Shaun will probably struggle with how he interacts with patients, but you know what?  We've seen every resident (and even the surgeons themselves) make mistakes; including upsetting patients; so why is it any different for him?  I hope Han realizes this, but we'll see.  I do think Daniel Dae Kim is doing a good job as always though, and I kind of respect that he's willing to play an adversarial character like this.

Can't remember this show really diving in any religion debates, so the preacher case was interesting enough.  Not surprised that Claire is an atheist, and I was worried they were going to dive too far into the "arrogant atheist" trope, but I thought they did a good job balancing it out, and showing Claire still not believing in God, but being able to communicate with the preacher and not come off like she thinks he's stupid anymore for believing.  As for Reznick being a Christian.... well, my main thought about that was that I can think of a quite a few things she has said or done that God totally would not be impressed by!  I guess she's one of those "do what you got to do and ask for forgiveness after the fact!" types!  Also always good to see Spencer Garrett.

Oh, Glassman!  I'm glad you're feeling better, but you should have known that you and Debbi just couldn't pick off where you left off, after the way you handled things last time!

I do wish that Melendez would start going to bat for Shaun, since I feel like his opposition could make a dent, since he initially started out being against him.  At least next week's previews seems to be hinting he might get more vocal about it later.

Glad Shaun is at least taking Park and Glassman's advice and is starting to confront Han.  Again though, will any of it get through Han's thick skull?

Edited February 26, 2019 by thuganomics85

[Annber03]

14 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Poor Shaun. I missed last week's episode so I'll have to watch that at some point. It does suck that his choice in residency was made for him, and Dr. Han certainly said some pretty wrong things about Shaun. He really upset Shaun at the end there, and Shaun's not known for showing as much emotion as he did at the end. Part of me can see why Dr. Han is worried about Shaun as a surgical resident soon to become a fellow when it comes to communicating with patients, but there are ways to work around that with Shaun and it feels like Dr. Han isn't even willing to compromise. He appreciates Shaun's help with the cases and has taken what he has diagnosed without dismissing it, but giving Shaun that little bit of hope and ripping it away is so cruel.

Agreed (Shaun holding that toy scalpel. Just...oh :(). Gotta love the irony that Shaun's good work here just further reinforced Han's belief he put him in the right residency. 

I can also understand Han's concern when Shaun does something like sneaking into a person's room, 'cause, yeah, definitely not a good thing to do if he's trying to win his old job back. But the fact he heard Shaun's theory out, the fact that Shaun wound up being right, the fact that Shaun takes the time to think that stuff through...surely you'd think that'd be enough to give Han a little more pause. 

I am happy to see Shaun fighting to get his job back, though, and judging from the preview, it looks like we'll see more of that next week as well. 

That said...

Quote

I liked his scenes with Carly in pathology. 

I also agree with this. If Shaun must remain in pathology for a while, I hope we get more scenes between him and Carly. I liked how she tried to make this new job as easy a transition as possible, and highlighted all the fun, cool things he'd get to do. Plus, it's just nice to see Carly again, period :).  

Quote

Claire is still one of my favourites on this show and this episode furthered my reasoning why. She's a flawed character. She's nice and she's good toward her patients, but sometimes she CAN say and do the wrong thing and can get into her own biases about things, such as her discussion about religion with her patient (Clarence) at first. I found her to be a little bit pushy, even though she fixed it in the end. I like flawed characters and Claire, even with her good heart, is still flawed. 

I am impressed by Morgan and how much I do like her now. Same with Park, who handled the scene with Shaun very well. It's good to see someone like him and even Lim look out for Shaun (same with Claire when she stood up to Han). 

And agreed on this as well. I loved Claire bringing that thing of all of Shaun's successful cases to Han-that was a really lovely touch. Claire and Lim being in Shaun's corner is great, and I'm glad he's got that kind of strong, unwavering support. 

I tend to share Claire's attitude in regards to the religious stuff Clarence was dealing with, but yeah, I can see where those discussions could've gone a little more smoothly. I like these little moments of conflict, though, because of course doctors should keep their personal biases to themselves, but when they've got a patient who is insisting he be allowed to feel pain as some kind of punishment, I can easily see how that can be very frustrating for doctors, to the point where they might want to try and debate them over it. I don't doubt it'd be hard sometimes to hold one's tongue. 

That said, I also sympathize with Clarence's feeling like he's being punished. Obviously the man's suicide wasn't his fault, but guilt and grief are powerful things. And when you do hear those occasional stories of diseases just kind of suddenly...shrinking/going away, I can see where the more faith-inclined can take that as a sign of something more. And I liked the little religion discussion between Claire, Morgan, and Melendez. 

It does always strike me odd, though, when religious people seem surprised that non-religious people would be familiar with the Bible. Practically every non-religious person I've known was very well-versed with the Bible, and religious dogma in general (isn't there some kind of joke/quote about how the Bible is an argument for atheism or something?). 

(Also, on the note of Clarence, I'm gonna need to make a little list of how many actors who've shown up on "Criminal Minds" have also popped up here, it seems, 'cause the actor playing Clarence is just the latest in that slowly growing list.)

Two episodes to go! Can't wait to see how this season wraps things up (or doesn't :p). 

[Driad]

I have dealt with several surgeons. None of them were stars at communication or empathy.

The pastor reminded me of a patient on ER(?) who declined surgery for prostate cancer because it would probably lead to impotence. He was a priest and said he needed the temptation of sex so he could resist it and keep his faith.

[rhys]

Damn, Shaun. No good deed, eh?

[Annber03]

9 minutes ago, Driad said:

The pastor reminded me of a patient on ER(?) who declined surgery for prostate cancer because it would probably lead to impotence. He was a priest and said he needed the temptation of sex so he could resist it and keep his faith.

Oh, wow. There's a unique argument. 

[izabella]

51 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I am impressed by Morgan and how much I do like her now. Same with Park, who handled the scene with Shaun very well. It's good to see someone like him and even Lim look out for Shaun (same with Claire when she stood up to Han). 

I like how they all tried to stand up for Shawn, and to try and help him. 

I had a bone to pick with Park, though.  He was dismissing what their patient was telling them about her premonition as being nothing.  But Lim listened and asked for brains scans., which is good because Park was already walking away without even considering ordering that test, which would have meant not finding the worm.  Good on LIm for listening.  Female patients often have their symptoms dismissed as being imaginary or insignificant. 

[Trini]

See, I think this thing with Debbie is a much better storyline for Glassman.

Glad that Shaun stood up for himself - to Han, and to Lim.

Yay! Jasika Nicole again!

[PinkRibbons]

Okay, it's outright conspicuous that no one is bringing up the serious legal issues here. In fact I feel like the show is saying that the only correct thing for Shaun to do is to push himself into being assertive in a way that is very difficult for him. It's pretty much saying that asking for help (such as a damn good lawyer. Or hell, a mediocre lawyer) is the recourse of the weak.

And holy fuck, that's offensive.

Edited February 26, 2019 by PinkRibbons

[Miles]

So why doesn't anybody tell Shaun to sue the shit out of the hospital? what better way to stand up for yourself?

1 hour ago, izabella said:

I had a bone to pick with Park, though.  He was dismissing what their patient was telling them about her premonition as being nothing.  But Lim listened and asked for brains scans., which is good because Park was already walking away without even considering ordering that test, which would have meant not finding the worm.  Good on LIm for listening.  Female patients often have their symptoms dismissed as being imaginary or insignificant.  

I mean it's dumb to dismiss this symptom, no matter if it's a man or a woman. Medical personal will tell you that they usually drop about everything when a patient experiences "impending doom". That usually means something bad is actually about to happen, like a heart attack or a stroke.

This show is taking a lot of liberties, again...

Edited February 26, 2019 by Miles

[AnimeMania]

Where did Morgan get that stat that 90% of Americans are religious?

Glassman should have apologized to Debbie and begged her to give him another chance, now that he can  completely focus on their relationship.

[Miles]

1 minute ago, AnimeMania said:

Where did Morgan get that stat that 90% of Americans are religious?

Out of her behind.

[tennisgurl]

38 minutes ago, AnimeMania said:

Where did Morgan get that stat that 90% of Americans are religious?

Well, she said believed in God, not necessarily that they were religious. While its kind of hard get statistics on something like that, most polls I found said that around 80-85% of Americans believe in some kind of higher power, which counts people who dont actually believe in or consider themselves a member of an organized religion. So, not exactly what Morgan said, but close. 

Dealing with religion on television is always a tough one (and in real life sometimes as well) because everyone has their own experiences and feelings, some very strong, and people can get a bit...defensive, in ways that they normally might not about other topics. I think they dealt with it quite well here, especially with Claire. She did come off as a bit unnecessarily abrasive to the guy, but Morgan also become defensive when Claire started talking about her lack of faith, jumping really quickly from "we should convince this guy to let us treat him" to "your gonna try to talk him out of God, huh?" which I think is true to life. Even doctors have their own biases and their own experiences that leak into their personal lives, and while they try to push back on it, it does happen. Claire did end up doing well with him though, and the whole thing worked out. The poor guy though, I can see how even a person who fully believes in science and facts could let their guilt lead them to thinking that God was punishing them. 

Loved Melendez and his version of growing up with religion. "My parents were Catholic, then got tired of the ceremonies, then became Lutheran. Then they got bored, and went back to being Catholic."

That leads me to Shaun, and how hypocritical Han is being. Everyone, even people with tons of experience with patients, make mistakes. In high pressure situations, sometimes people say the wrong thing, and unless they frequently say purposefully awful things to them all of the time, no one is going to get fired over it. But, because Shaun has autism, thats apparently a deal breaker for him as a surgeon now. Its great that Shaun is telling him straight up that this isnt what he wants to do, but I hope someone tells Shaun to consider getting a lawyer, because that is just full on discrimination. Even this week, Shaun goes above and beyond to help the climber, and he just got smacked down for it. And while Han does seem like he really does think that pathology is the best fit for Shaun, and even encourages him and gives him credit, he just always goes back to "no surgery for you" just because he has a disability that everyone else is fine with. 

It was also nice to see Claire and Lim standing up for him, and the interaction he had with Park was really nice too. If Shaun did get a lawyer, he would have plenty of people in his corner!

I did like seeing Carly in pathology again, and she was so kind to him, trying to make his first day transition easier, and showing him all the cool stuff he can do there, so at least it will be nice to have her around for awhile, hopefully. And Shaun probably would be a great pathologist...but thats not what he wants, and he is a ridiculously capable surgeon, so just let him do his job damn it! 

Shaun and his little toy knife! Oh Shaun...

[bros402]

So, uh, how many EEOC/ADA violations is the hospital going to rack up with shoving Shaun into pathology? Maybe Daniel Dae Kim's character thinks the hospital is like a game of pinball and he wants the high score?

Also, why did he say he could fire Shaun? He transferred Shaun to Pathology - therefore, head of Pathology should be his supervisor, unless it is some kind of trial for him in Pathology?

Second note - Jasika Nicole is great and we need more of her.

[doctor destiny]

Glassman treats Shaun like a son.  I wonder if he will officially adopt him at some point.  I think he will.  When your adult son is being discriminated against on the first level you might tell them to stand up for themselves.  They aren't children any more.  And you won't always be around.  But when they stand up for themselves and are subjected to even more prejudice you darn well ought to fund a multi-million dollar lawsuit on their behalf.  Or help them go the EEOC.  This is a blatant breach of the ADA and given this is a finite arc I hope and presume they fire Han for this.  Maybe that's Resnick's support of Shaun?  Legal, practical and efficient.

These two episodes have hollowed me out.  It's so painful to watch not least because I've seen it first hand with my children:  He can't go sailing at the yacht club.  You need to put him in the disabled sailing group.  But they let his bullies sail.  Or "he will find him place in life" (yeah well his place is with a PhD!).  The non-invitations to birthday parties that you know the whole class is invited to.  The indescribable pain you feel when your children are treated as less than.  I know what they are trying to do but I will be glad to see the end of this arc.  I hope somewhere this is causing a person to rethink their prejudice towards PWD.  Because that's the only reason to do this.

Edited February 26, 2019 by doctor destiny

[Good Queen Jane]

Why is everyone concentrating on Shaun's diagnostic skills? As a surgical resident, shouldn't his skill with the scalpel be what's important? It is important to know what is wrong with the patient, but that is what pathology and other diagnostic departments do. Surgeons cut. Isn't that what Shaun should be judged on?

[Lady Calypso]

6 minutes ago, Good Queen Jane said:

Why is everyone concentrating on Shaun's diagnostic skills? As a surgical resident, shouldn't his skill with the scalpel be what's important? It is important to know what is wrong with the patient, but that is what pathology and other diagnostic departments do. Surgeons cut. Isn't that what Shaun should be judged on?

It should be, but apparently, it's not according to Han. It seems like Han thinks a surgical resident or fellow needs to have great communication skills. He did say that he worried about Shaun having to lead a team in the future...but isn't that the case if he's in pathology as well? 

Again, Han is judging Shaun based off of his autism. See his conversation to Claire about Shaun's autism and his very wrong statement that was something along the lines of comparing it with the flu ("If a doctor is sick, I can send them home until they're better. I can't do that with Shaun.") So Han IS being completely discriminatory. You'd think that would be grounds for a formal investigation against Han, but nobody is pointing this out to Shaun, who probably does believe that he can do that to him. 

8 hours ago, izabella said:

I like how they all tried to stand up for Shawn, and to try and help him. 

I had a bone to pick with Park, though.  He was dismissing what their patient was telling them about her premonition as being nothing.  But Lim listened and asked for brains scans., which is good because Park was already walking away without even considering ordering that test, which would have meant not finding the worm.  Good on LIm for listening.  Female patients often have their symptoms dismissed as being imaginary or insignificant. 

The one excellent thing about this show is that they're not afraid to make the main characters out as wrong sometimes. Park was definitely wrong, and I like them pointing this out without blatantly pointing it out. 

6 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I did like seeing Carly in pathology again, and she was so kind to him, trying to make his first day transition easier, and showing him all the cool stuff he can do there, so at least it will be nice to have her around for awhile, hopefully. And Shaun probably would be a great pathologist...but thats not what he wants, and he is a ridiculously capable surgeon, so just let him do his job damn it! 

Carly is ten times better than Lea. I like how she at least tried to handle Shaun on his first day, even if it didn't fully work out. 

[Annber03]

8 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Again, Han is judging Shaun based off of his autism. See his conversation to Claire about Shaun's autism and his very wrong statement that was something along the lines of comparing it with the flu ("If a doctor is sick, I can send them home until they're better. I can't do that with Shaun.") So Han IS being completely discriminatory. You'd think that would be grounds for a formal investigation against Han, but nobody is pointing this out to Shaun, who probably does believe that he can do that to him. 

Oh, god, that scene. I was sitting here like, "...but...that's not the same thing, Han?"

4 hours ago, doctor destiny said:

These two episodes have hollowed me out.  It's so painful to watch not least because I've seen it first hand with my children:  He can't go sailing at the yacht club.  You need to put him in the disabled sailing group.  But they let his bullies sail.  Or "he will find him place in life" (yeah well his place is with a PhD!).  The non-invitations to birthday parties that you know the whole class is invited to.  The indescribable pain you feel when your children are treated as less than.  I know what they are trying to do but I will be glad to see the end of this arc.  I hope somewhere this is causing a person to rethink their prejudice towards PWD.  Because that's the only reason to do this.

I'm so sorry your children have to deal with this nonsense. I too hope this show will continue to help people see how harmful and hurtful those kinds of attitudes can be. 

[SunnyBeBe]

I still haven't seen any incident for Han to base his decision to move Shaun to pathology.  It's just an idea in his head.  And as far as Shaun saving the day because he was in pathology...he would have spotted that situation even if he was not in pathology, right? The pathologist would have done the work, Shaun would have reviewed it and saw the problem, even if it wasn't flagged.   It's apparent Han is wrong and the situation  has now grown irritating to me.  I don't know what legal rights Shaun has, but, he needs to get a legal consult to find out. 

The new trend in medical shows seems to be doctors who can't help but interject their own opinions, beliefs and values onto the patient. I just don't find it that amusing. 

Edited February 27, 2019 by SunnyBeBe

[Janie430]

Han is wrong about primary versus secondary characteristics of the job.  The primary job of a surgeon is to cut, cut well, with minimal complications, and keep the patient alive and functioning.  Doing grand rounds, however, and teaching other surgeons, is a secondary characteristic of the job.  They're part of what we've defined as the function of a surgeon at a teaching hospital, but aren't necessary to the primary job. 

Shaun is good at the primary job with minimal accommodation.  He manages his autism well in the OR, he is good at working through the procedure and dealing with unexpected problems related to surgery and has even performed a cesearean section in chaotic conditions.  Han may be right, Sean may not be good at doing grand rounds some day, but they can help him work around that, and he brings enough value to the primary function of the job that it is worth it to train him to do it.  Sean may never be a medical school professor, or attending at a teaching hospital.  Doesn't mean he can't be a good general surgeon.  It doesn't mean he can't arrange something with a hospital to be a non-teaching surgeon, or have privileges to operate at a hospital without being an employee (rarer and rarer these days, though).  

Han's got an idea in his head of what it means to be a surgeon, and is not willing to see that there are other ways to do the job.

[AriAu]

This was a surprisingly interesting episode. The medical cases moved along well and they did not let the religion aspect get too preachy and instead asked interesting (to me) questions.

I get that Dr. Han is supposed to be a dick for not letting our hero have his way, but he is bringing up legitimate issues about Shawn's ability to fully provide patient care. He is watching out for the patients, the hospital and Shawn, since pathology may be an area where he has the greatest probability of success.

[rmontro]

Dr. Han is obviously being portrayed as the villain here, but I'm not sure that he's entirely wrong about Shaun.  Will he be able to fulfill the communicative end of his duties as a surgeon once he finishes his residency?  Would this happen in real life?  Are there real life autistic surgeons?  I don't really know.  It appears to me that his diagnostic skill and his talent for coming up with creative solutions would outweigh his communicative limitations, but I'm not a Chief of Surgery.

Nice to see Lea taking time out from having sex with her boyfriend in her bedroom to notice that Shaun is having some problems.  Those pancakes looked good.

Strange to see Dr. Glassman in such a congenial mood lately, although he looked pretty irritated at the end.

[possibilities]

So. Claire killed a patient by placing the intubation tube incorrectly, and the hospital covered her ass.

Shaun saved a patient when the rest of the team had run out of ideas, and they booted him from the program for answering a question without tact.

I'd like to see a lawsuit showing disparate treatment, citing all the cases where Shaun was instrumental in saving the day, vs all the times other residents failed to notice, made blunt errors, or misspoke.

I don't really want to throw Claire under the bus, but I do think that if they line up the actual accomplishments vs mistakes of the various members of the team, it's obvious that Shaun is being held to an unreasonable standard.

I also think that the total lack of investigation or due process is a problem, all issues of discrimination aside.

And Shaun CAN learn. He's learning to recognize sarcasm. He can find a formula for how to answer questions while minimizing patient distress. Once it's explained to him how other people react to various things, he makes an effort to account for it.

We've also seen him be an asset in dealing with autistic patients, where the rest of the staff was totally flummoxed.

He has demonstrated that he provides many valuable skills to patient care, and even the family who Han is alleging Shaun traumatized has not filed a complaint against him, and would likely never do so if they knew he was the one who figured out how to save their child's life when no one else could.

This is clear prejudice and bad management besides.

Edited February 26, 2019 by possibilities

[Lady Calypso]

5 minutes ago, possibilities said:

I'd like to see a lawsuit showing disparate treatment, citing all the cases where Shaun was instrumental in saving the day, vs all the times other residents failed to notice, made blunt errors, or misspoke.

That's exactly what Claire was trying to give to Han before he completely dismissed her. 

Your point just proves that Han is the issue here. I do think that Shaun would benefit from some therapy to help with his communication skills (he CAN be a bit rude but that CAN be fixed on his end) and that would probably be the ideal compromise to get him back in the surgical residency, but I don't know whether Han would accept that as a compromise or if he has to be fired for his clear discrimination against Shaun. Shaun's not as much of an issue as Han is, at this point. What, is Han going to transfer Claire next if she makes a mistake during surgery? 

That being said, Daniel Dae Kim is doing a phenomenal job as Han. I love that he's allowing his character to be an antagonist like this. 

[rmontro]

10 minutes ago, possibilities said:

I'd like to see a lawsuit showing disparate treatment, citing all the cases where Shaun was instrumental in saving the day, vs all the times other residents failed to notice, made blunt errors, or misspoke.

That could be where this is headed, it's a possibility anyway.  

Also, could Shaun possibly transfer to another hospital to complete his residency?  Obviously I don't see this happening on the show, but I'm wondering what his options are.

Dr. Han even said that he makes a good surgical resident.  He's just assuming that he won't make a good surgeon in the future, because of his communication problems.  But why can't they cross that bridge when they come to it?  In the meantime, he's being denied the chance to improve or prove himself.  It does seem unfair.

[The Mighty Peanut]

As a viewer, I want Sean in surgery. As a patient, I am more of a cold hearted bastard. Be rude, idgaf as long as you fix me, and I trust his precision above all others. But while my life is in the balance I don’t want anyone who can be thrown off by an irritating sound or an interrupted ritual.

In pathology he can find all the same missed connections without the risks. I'm sorry! 😞 I do love Sean.

Edited February 26, 2019 by The Mighty Peanut

[Madding crowd]

I can see where a hospital risk management department might have concern about Shaun having a possible melt down during surgery due to a malfunctioning light or unexpected noise. I even wondered if Dr Han knew about Shaun curled up on the floor unable to function because of a buzzing light. What if that happened during a delicate surgery?

As a viewer though I adore Shaun and want him back in the surgery unit where he belongs. I would think there would be some kind of appeal process Shaun could go through with or without a lawyer.

[MakeMeLaugh]

Sue, Shaun, sue. You’ll own this hospital. This storyline makes me soooo angry. It is so stupid and just not believable. I once had to deal with a neurosurgeon that my doc warned me was “a typical surgeon” and not to be put off by him (surprise, he was kind and respectful to me as a patient). Guess he belonged in pathology too? Not to mention what an insult to pathology—is it a dumping ground where the higher level can send docs they perceive as misfits?

And weren't the testing and diagnosis of the malignant meningioma already done? Why is he reviewing them—should he review all the labs that have already been completed? Yeah I know it was his patient so he was curious but still, what if he hadn’t? And he would more likely have reviewed the results and noted the alternative diagnosis in that position.

So angry. So unbelievable, so lazy to repeat the initial “Shaun won’t fit in” storyline, too. Wrap it up, writers.

[woodstock]

14 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Loved Melendez and his version of growing up with religion. "My parents were Catholic, then got tired of the ceremonies, then became Lutheran. Then they got bored, and went back to being Catholic."

THIS! I laughed out loud at Melendez' comment.

I appreciated how religion/faith was handled during this episode. No over the top preachy messages just varying perspectives. The minister stating 'I believe in science' stuck out to me because yeah people of faith do believe in medicine and science.

The Han/Shaun dynamic is very interesting. I see both sides of the issue but yeah I'm totally Team Shaun.

No Andrews this week.

Shaun can come alphabetize my cabinets/pantry anytime.

[tennisgurl]

2 hours ago, possibilities said:

I'd like to see a lawsuit showing disparate treatment, citing all the cases where Shaun was instrumental in saving the day, vs all the times other residents failed to notice, made blunt errors, or misspoke.

I think it might be fun to have a season finale when they bring back a bunch of patients of the week from throughout the show who Shaun saved, and have them speak on his behalf. Yeah it could be super cheesy, but it would also be a great reminder of all the good he has done, disability of no. And it would just be fun to see a bunch of old characters show up again and see how they are all doing!

[Annber03]

15 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I think it might be fun to have a season finale when they bring back a bunch of patients of the week from throughout the show who Shaun saved, and have them speak on his behalf. Yeah it could be super cheesy, but it would also be a great reminder of all the good he has done, disability of no. And it would just be fun to see a bunch of old characters show up again and see how they are all doing!

Oh, I love this idea :). I'd be all for this. 

[MakeMeLaugh]

18 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I think it might be fun to have a season finale when they bring back a bunch of patients of the week from throughout the show who Shaun saved, and have them speak on his behalf. Yeah it could be super cheesy, but it would also be a great reminder of all the good he has done, disability of no. And it would just be fun to see a bunch of old characters show up again and see how they are all doing!

Yes! And Dr Han can round up all the patients who wish they hadn’t had Shaun treat them—oh, wait, there aren’t any.... 

[tennisgurl]

1 minute ago, MakeMeLaugh said:

Yes! And Dr Han can round up all the patients who wish they hadn’t had Shaun treat them—oh, wait, there aren’t any.... 

Han: "But, didnt it bother you that his small talk skills arent amazing?!"

Patient: "I got to meet my grandchild last week because Dr. Murphy saved my life, so I can let go that he didnt want to chat about the weather"

[Lady Calypso]

Han: "But....it didn't bother you when Dr. Murphy said no to a hug?"

Patient: "Well, I've gotten to hug lots of people since Dr. Murphy saved my life so....no."

[preeya]

I hate it when shows get political, even more, when they go religion.

[mojito]

I like the character of Dr. Han. I think he makes good arguments and he's shown that he can be open-minded. From his perspective, Shaun would be better in pathology and make room for a doctor whom Han thinks has good communication skills and a better fit as a doctor. I don't know anything about doctors and hospitals. But in the rest of the corporate world, if someone deems you unsuitable for the job you're doing, you're lucky if they find you somewhere else to be. Still, it seems that the wise manager would build a case against you before removing you from your current job.

Rifling through someone's purse seems to be grounds for immediate dismissal, however.

[rmontro]

18 hours ago, woodstock said:

I appreciated how religion/faith was handled during this episode. No over the top preachy messages just varying perspectives. The minister stating 'I believe in science' stuck out to me because yeah people of faith do believe in medicine and science.

Yeah, I was worried about that because I know David Shore is an atheist, and on House there was a lot of comments about religious people being idiots and believing in fairy tales.  It was somewhat balanced by Cameron, but not really.

They came close to portraying the minister as an idiot for wanting to hang onto his pain, but he was just suffering from guilt.  So yeah, they handled it pretty well overall.

Speaking of Shaun having the meltdown on the floor, that was never resolved, was it?  That lady was still going to recommend that several of the doctors lose their license, right?  I could see Dr. Han finally believing in Shaun, and restoring him to his surgical residency, only to have someone run into the room and drop the hammer that he's been stripped of his license.

Edited February 27, 2019 by rmontro

[MVN-Hokies]

2 hours ago, rmontro said:

Speaking of Shaun having the meltdown on the floor, that was never resolved, was it?  That lady was still going to recommend that several of the doctors lose their license, right? 

We've had basically no mention of this since "Aftermath" (episode 12). Dr. Andrews mentioned it briefly in episode 13. I was definitely expecting it to be addressed before the last 2 episodes of the season. The descriptions of the next 2 episodes don't mention the medical board review, but I'm assuming it will come up in one of the episodes. 

As far as Shaun losing his license, it seems unlikely. Yes, he had a melt down, but he also got up fairly quickly and then proceeded soon after to successfully perform his first ever emergency c-section and then save the baby. Did his meltdown ultimately make that big of a difference in patient care? 

[doctor destiny]

11 hours ago, AriAu said:

This was a surprisingly interesting episode. The medical cases moved along well and they did not let the religion aspect get too preachy and instead asked interesting (to me) questions.

I get that Dr. Han is supposed to be a dick for not letting our hero have his way, but he is bringing up legitimate issues about Shawn's ability to fully provide patient care. He is watching out for the patients, the hospital and Shawn, since pathology may be an area where he has the greatest probability of success.

The problem is that Shaun is crystal clear that he doesn't want to be a pathologist and it isn't Dr Han's place to make him.  Autistic adults have free will in a free society just like anyone else.  He is an excellent surgical resident now.  To base a decision on how he might turn out is blatantly illegal and unfair.  

[bros402]

11 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

That's exactly what Claire was trying to give to Han before he completely dismissed her. 

Your point just proves that Han is the issue here. I do think that Shaun would benefit from some therapy to help with his communication skills (he CAN be a bit rude but that CAN be fixed on his end) and that would probably be the ideal compromise to get him back in the surgical residency, but I don't know whether Han would accept that as a compromise or if he has to be fired for his clear discrimination against Shaun. Shaun's not as much of an issue as Han is, at this point. What, is Han going to transfer Claire next if she makes a mistake during surgery? 

That being said, Daniel Dae Kim is doing a phenomenal job as Han. I love that he's allowing his character to be an antagonist like this. 

Yeah, Shaun definitely needs to see a therapist just so he has someone to discuss his behavior with.

I mean it would be very entertaining if Glassman paid lawyers to help Shaun sue the hospital, Shaun wins millions, then they reboot the show next season with Claire, Park, Shaun, and Glassman in a hospital in like rural Wyoming or something 😛

4 hours ago, MVN-Hokies said:

We've had basically no mention of this since "Aftermath" (episode 12). Dr. Andrews mentioned it briefly in episode 13. I was definitely expecting it to be addressed before the last 2 episodes of the season. The descriptions of the next 2 episodes don't mention the medical board review, but I'm assuming it will come up in one of the episodes. 

As far as Shaun losing his license, it seems unlikely. Yes, he had a melt down, but he also got up fairly quickly and then proceeded soon after to successfully perform his first ever emergency c-section and then save the baby. Did his meltdown ultimately make that big of a difference in patient care? 

They mentioned that Dr. Han has connections with the medical board - which is why they hired him for such a high salary

[possibilities]

37 minutes ago, bros402 said:

then they reboot the show next season with Claire, Park, Shaun, and Glassman in a hospital in like rural Wyoming or something

They could bring back Jared!

[Virtual]

Since we saw that Claire, Park and Lim all supported Shaun staying on the surgery team, i think it would help even more if Melendez and possibly Reznick brought up how they both doubted him at first but he proved to them many times that he deserved to be there. I know they have both come around on him since they first met him. One poster brought up all the peoples lives he saved coming in and speaking of their story; it kind of inspired the idea that people who worked with Shaun before they left (Jared and Jessica, the blonde lawyer Melendez was engaged to last year) the hospital could do the same and speak of their experiences with Shaun.

that is just a quick idea. I'm running short on time at the moment, but I'll bring up every thought I have on this episode later today.

[SunnyBeBe]

On 2/26/2019 at 5:10 PM, Madding crowd said:

I can see where a hospital risk management department might have concern about Shaun having a possible melt down during surgery due to a malfunctioning light or unexpected noise. I even wondered if Dr Han knew about Shaun curled up on the floor unable to function because of a buzzing light. What if that happened during a delicate surgery?

As a viewer though I adore Shaun and want him back in the surgery unit where he belongs. I would think there would be some kind of appeal process Shaun could go through with or without a lawyer.

Right. The only incident that seemed to be problematic to me, and I haven't watched every minute of the episodes, was when Shaun went on to the floor when the light was making that annoying noise. The meddling by some of the other doctors with patients' rights seemed far more harmful, inappropriate,  and questionable to me. 

Edited February 28, 2019 by SunnyBeBe

[rmontro]

13 hours ago, MVN-Hokies said:

As far as Shaun losing his license, it seems unlikely. Yes, he had a melt down, but he also got up fairly quickly and then proceeded soon after to successfully perform his first ever emergency c-section and then save the baby. Did his meltdown ultimately make that big of a difference in patient care? 

That really doesn't matter so much as the question "will it create some drama in the show?".  If they're not going to follow through on someone maybe losing their license, why bring it up in the first place?  At this point I'm thinking they might be holding it for a season ending cliffhanger.

[AriAu]

Quote

The problem is that Shaun is crystal clear that he doesn't want to be a pathologist and it isn't Dr Han's place to make him.  Autistic adults have free will in a free society just like anyone else.  He is an excellent surgical resident now.  To base a decision on how he might turn out is blatantly illegal and unfair.  

I am not sure that he is an excellent surgical resident since the job has many, many components to it...diagnostic is just one and it is one where he is truly outstanding. But,, lest we forget that he is a surgical resident who ended up in the fetal position during a crisis not because of the crisis, but because of his condition and a fairly mundane noise. I do not practice in that area of the law, but I have to believe that it would be pretty murky situation given the patient risk, which would lead to a lot of discretion on the part of the employer.

Quote

I mean it would be very entertaining if Glassman paid lawyers to help Shaun sue the hospital, Shaun wins millions, then they reboot the show next season with Claire, Park, Shaun, and Glassman in a hospital in like rural Wyoming or something 😛

As long as they leave Reznik behind, I'm fine with that. This hospital could be in any metro area..they really don't use the locale for anything.

[MVN-Hokies]

1 hour ago, rmontro said:

That really doesn't matter so much as the question "will it create some drama in the show?".  If they're not going to follow through on someone maybe losing their license, why bring it up in the first place?  At this point I'm thinking they might be holding it for a season ending cliffhanger.

I agree that it's all being brought up for the sake of drama, but I guess it still makes sense that it would be brought up even if no one ends up losing their license. I would guess that it's standard procedure to have the hospital under review after a quarantine situation where people died. I think we may still have the drama of the doctors having to argue their case and the cliff hanger being just waiting to hear the final decision. I doubt anyone will lose their license, just possible suspensions. All 3 doctors are now main characters on the show, I don't see any of them being written out.

[possibilities]

It's not that I think being in the fetal position on the floor is something everyone should pretend is totally cool, but he snapped out of it quickly and then did a really good job. The situation should be investigated, and I'd even be open to him being put on probation while he shows he can handle the stress of the job. But other doctors have screwed up and misbehaved, also, and that is the crux of the matter.

Also, he could become a surgeon where he is highly valued and respected and has status that a resident doesn't have, and then people will do things like have the lights in working order and not buzzing, just like Han controls his OR by playing music or commands a ridiculously high salary because he's considered worth it.

There are accommodations that can be made, which are reasonable and do not fundamentally alter the nature of the program or interfere with patient care or hospital functioning, which would be far better than just ditching a talented surgeon from the profession because of prejudice.

[topanga]

On 2/25/2019 at 11:45 PM, Driad said:

The pastor reminded me of a patient on ER(?) who declined surgery for prostate cancer because it would probably lead to impotence. He was a priest and said he needed the temptation of sex so he could resist it and keep his faith.

And we see how well that’s working out for the Catholic Church. 

20 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Han: "But....it didn't bother you when Dr. Murphy said no to a hug?"

Patient: "Well, I've gotten to hug lots of people since Dr. Murphy saved my life so....no."

With extremely rare exceptions, I don’t want to be hugged by patients. Does that mean I shouldn’t interact with patients?

Where is your legal ADA fight, Shaun?

Speaking of the law, did Melendez’s ex-fiancé leave the hospital? If so, I missed that. 

[MVN-Hokies]

1 hour ago, possibilities said:

Also, he could become a surgeon where he is highly valued and respected and has status that a resident doesn't have, and then people will do things like have the lights in working order and not buzzing, just like Han controls his OR by playing music or commands a ridiculously high salary because he's considered worth it.

There are accommodations that can be made, which are reasonable and do not fundamentally alter the nature of the program or interfere with patient care or hospital functioning, which would be far better than just ditching a talented surgeon from the profession because of prejudice.

That's exactly what I have been thinking. I'm hoping we'll see some of these things addressed next season. I'm having trouble thinking of specific examples, but Melendez, Lim, and the other residents have already made accommodations for Shaun as they've learned how he best functions.