S38.E01: It Smells Like Success

[himela]

I don't understand why people are so negative towards Reem. She started being weird AT tribal council, after she had found out they were gunning for her. I don't want to play the man versus woman card, but lets imagine a man were in her place, what would we say for him trying to save himself? Reem had the best idea after they lost the immunity challenge, vote out the one of the power couple because power couples are meant to be split, and the one being Wentworth makes it even more necessary. She may have been a little too out there with the conversation with Rick (?) but this is her way of talking. Anyway, my opinion is she was just voted out because of being the oldest and everything else was an excuse.

Edited February 22, 2019 by himela

[Bryce Lynch]

53 minutes ago, himela said:

I don;t understand why people are so negative towards Reem. She started being weird AT tribal council, after she had found out they were gunning for her. I don't want to play the man versus woman card, but lets imagine a man were in her place, what would we say for him trying to save himself? Reem had the best idea after they lost the immunity challenge, vote out the one of the power couple because power couples are meant to be split, and the one being Wentworth makes it even more necessary. She may have been a little too out there with the conversation with Rick (?) but this is her way of talking. Anyway, my opinion is she was jst voted out because of being the oldest and everything else was an excuse.

I think Reem was annoying people before TC, she just took it to a whole other level at TC.

She messed with everyone's clothes without asking them, which is a major no no.

At TC she didn't make any sort of positive case for herself, she basically just accused the rest of the tribe of being idiots and treating her unfairly.  She played right in to the gripe about her that was that she was annoying.

Are Lauren and Kelley really a power couple?  Why? Because they both played soccer?  Power couples are usually in romantic relationships.

Players usually don't start worrying about power couples at the first TC.  There is still plenty of time to get rid of one or both later.

The focus is usually on 1) keeping the tribe strong 2) Keeping players you have a good relationship with or are working with 3) Getting rid of people who make camp life unpleasant.

Voting out Reem fit with all 3 of those criteria.

Plus, she had an alliance of 3, which is much more dangerous than a supposed power couple.

Edited February 22, 2019 by Bryce Lynch

[himela]

9 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I think Reem was annoying people before TC, she just took it to a whole other level at TC.

She messed with everyone's clothes without asking them, which is a major no no.

At TC she didn't make any sort of positive case for herself, she basically just accused the rest of the tribe of being idiots and treating her unfairly.  She played right in to the gripe about her that was that she was annoying.

Are Lauren and Kelley really a power couple?  Why? Because they both played soccer?  Power couples are usually in romantic relationships.

Players usually don't start worrying about power couples at the first TC.  There is still plenty of time to get rid of one or both later.

The focus is usually on 1) keeping the tribe strong 2) Keeping players you have a good relationship with or are working with 3) Getting rid of people who make camp life unpleasant.

Voting out Reem fit with all 3 of those criteria.

Plus, she had an alliance of 3, which is much more dangerous than a supposed power couple.

The way I see it, people are so used to people talking with hints and not saying what they really mean that a person who is open at what they are thinking just seems weird and maybe annoying to them. Many people found Wendy annoying as well. Do we want players who just float and never talk? Don't we want entertainment on a show like Survivor? Other than that, why didn't anyone tell her "please do not touch my things"? And lastly, JT and Stephen were a power couple who were not in a romantic relationship (I can't remember more atm).

[ProfCrash]

55 minutes ago, himela said:

I don;t understand why people are so negative towards Reem. She started being weird AT tribal council, after she had found out they were gunning for her. I don't want to play the man versus woman card, but lets imagine a man were in her place, what would we say for him trying to save himself? Reem had the best idea after they lost the immunity challenge, vote out the one of the power couple because power couples are meant to be split, and the one being Wentworth makes it even more necessary. She may have been a little too out there with the conversation with Rick (?) but this is her way of talking. Anyway, my opinion is she was jst voted out because of being the oldest and everything else was an excuse.

I am with you. Reem didn't know she was annoying people until just before tribal council. She thought she was helping by drying clothes and reminding people to drink water. She wasn't looking through peoples stuff, she wasn't hunting idols (that we saw). She tried to help Keith by working with him on his swimming. She was participating at camp. She was told before tribal she was a target and why and she was pissed.

Her performance at tribal was awful, there is no denying that. I think she realized that there was no swaying the tribe and simply got really defensive. And I can understand why she would be incredulous, people were voting for her because she moved their stuff to dry and didn't bother to ask her to stop. Not one person mentioned that she might be searching for clues or idols or associated her action as anything other then trying to be helpful. They didn't want her to touch there stuff, which is fine, but didn't say "Hey, Reem, please leave my stuff where it is."

And then she had heard that some people thought that she was the weakest competitor, which was ridiculous. She was in good shape and pulled her weight in the competitions and around camp.

Her outburst at Tribal was bad and she handled herself poorly but she knew that some of her tribemates were falling into the star struck "oh my god its Kelly and David" crap that is the death of newbies. And she knew she was being targeted for the most ridiculous of reasons. You really are reaching when your comments are "You moved my stiff and told me to drink water."

I would be fine with Kelly making it to the end and losing spectacularly. I find the eye rolling and smug looks annoying. I know she has played two seasons and I cannot remember her game play so she does not strike me as all that memorable. I found her attitude at tribal condescending and annoying. Her comments about getting to know people better followed up by the eye rolls and annoyed faces are contradictory.

[Bryce Lynch]

33 minutes ago, himela said:

The way I see it, people are so used to people talking with hints and not saying what they really mean that a person who is open at what they are thinking just seems weird and maybe annoying to them. Many people found Wendy annoying as well. Do we want players who just float and never talk? Don't we want entertainment on a show like Survivor? Other than that, why didn't anyone tell her "please do not touch my things"? And lastly, JT and Stephen were a power couple who were not in a romantic relationship (I can't remember more atm).

So, was each tribe member who didn't want his or her things touched supposed to go to every other member of the tribe and say, "Please don't touch my things?"

No, the person who wants to mess with other people's personal property needs to ask permission first.  This is basic etiquette that normal people know from childhood.

If you are in a group of people and the majority find you annoying, you are probably annoying.

She also failed to make any case for them to keep her.  She told them how bad they were, not how valuable she could be.

[ByaNose]

I'm hoping that Reem will stick it out on Extinction Island just to see if another person shows up. Then it might get interesting to see how that plays out.

[Lamb18]

It would be funny if the Extinction Island people only had to be on there for an hour, then were boated to a resort where they could eat all they want and only needed to be on the island for filming. For example, when the new rejectee showed up, etc.

To borrow from Nashville, I suppose Wardog could be Peacepuppy or Peacekitty.

[TaraS1]

Aw man, I wish I didn't know now that Keith goes to Duke!  (I'm from Kentucky.  If you're a college basketball fan, you'll understand lol.)

I hope Aubry wins it all this time.

[Bryce Lynch]

2 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

I am with you. Reem didn't know she was annoying people until just before tribal council. She thought she was helping by drying clothes and reminding people to drink water. She wasn't looking through peoples stuff, she wasn't hunting idols (that we saw). She tried to help Keith by working with him on his swimming. She was participating at camp. She was told before tribal she was a target and why and she was pissed.

Her performance at tribal was awful, there is no denying that. I think she realized that there was no swaying the tribe and simply got really defensive. And I can understand why she would be incredulous, people were voting for her because she moved their stuff to dry and didn't bother to ask her to stop. Not one person mentioned that she might be searching for clues or idols or associated her action as anything other then trying to be helpful. They didn't want her to touch there stuff, which is fine, but didn't say "Hey, Reem, please leave my stuff where it is."

And then she had heard that some people thought that she was the weakest competitor, which was ridiculous. She was in good shape and pulled her weight in the competitions and around camp.

Her outburst at Tribal was bad and she handled herself poorly but she knew that some of her tribemates were falling into the star struck "oh my god its Kelly and David" crap that is the death of newbies. And she knew she was being targeted for the most ridiculous of reasons. You really are reaching when your comments are "You moved my stiff and told me to drink water."

I would be fine with Kelly making it to the end and losing spectacularly. I find the eye rolling and smug looks annoying. I know she has played two seasons and I cannot remember her game play so she does not strike me as all that memorable. I found her attitude at tribal condescending and annoying. Her comments about getting to know people better followed up by the eye rolls and annoyed faces are contradictory.

Annoying people often don't know they are annoying and miss or ignore cues from the people they are annoying.   Annoyingness is a true case of perception equaling reality.  If you think I am annoying, then, to you, I am annoying.  If at least 6 of my other 8 tribe members think I am annoying , then I am annoying to my tribe.  

I loved what she did for Keith, but that wasn't enough.

Which tribe members are weaker than Reem?  The only possibility I can think of is David, but his experience around camp is valuable, and I am not sure he is weaker than Reem.  She is clearly among the weakest, if not the weakest.  The immunity challenge didn't give much insight, except in the case of the very athletic players who did the toughest parts, like climbing the ropes, and I think we already knew they were challenge beasts. 

I don't think working with the returnees is death to the newbies.  There are only 2 in each tribe.  Working with them or against them are both valid strategies for the newbies.

Her outbursts at TC reinforced the feeling that she was annoying and might also be indicative of some of her behavior at camp that we were not shown.  

Eye rolling is common when people behave in the way that Reem did at TC.  

Edited February 22, 2019 by Bryce Lynch

[violet and green]

8 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Which tribe members are weaker than Reem?  The only possibility I can think of is David, but his experience around camp is valuable, and I am not sure he is weaker than Reem.  She is clearly among the weakest, if on the weakest. 

What evidence was there that Reem was clearly the weakest? She was a stronger swimmer than Keith, and generous enough to spend time teaching him further how to swim and encouraging him. She didn't fall and smash her face during the tribe, like Kelly.

The only 'evidence' for Reem's 'weakness' was her age. David, being only two years younger than her, should watch out. Hope they have a wheelchair on standby in case his bones suddenly crumble and collapse, given his advanced age!

[Bryce Lynch]

5 minutes ago, violet and green said:

What evidence was there that Reem was clearly the weakest? She was a stronger swimmer than Keith, and generous enough to spend time teaching him further how to swim and encouraging him. She didn't fall and smash her face during the tribe, like Kelly.

The only 'evidence' for Reem's 'weakness' was her age. David, being only two years younger than her, should watch out. Hope they have a wheelchair on standby in case his bones suddenly crumble and collapse, given his advanced age!

What evidence is there that Reem is stronger than any of her tribe members.   Is she stronger than Wardog, Chris, Rick?  Kelley is a fit, athletic 31 year old who has played twice before.  Lauren is a 21 year old, fit, D1 athlete.   Keith is a 19 year old fairly fit young man.  Wendy is 25 and seems to be in better shape than Reem.  

David has played before and made it almost to the end.  He also won 3 individual challenges, so it would be hard to assume that he would be weaker than Reem in challenges.  

[peachmangosteen]

On 2/21/2019 at 9:31 AM, ProfCrash said:

I have to say, when a tribe is voting someone out because she moved their stuff without asking I roll my eyes. No one thought to say "Please don't touch my stuff?" That said, if that is the main reason you have for voting someone out, then the overall personalities on the tribe must not be that annoying. No one seemed to be a real problem for challenges, the idea that Reem was the "weakest" is flat out ridiculous, and everyone seemed to be pulling their weight.

That is not awful.

I have no clue why the rest of the tribe didn't see that this was a great opportunity to vote out people who have played before. Seriously, if you are targeting someone because they are moving your clothes and shoes tot he sun to dry, then it is a good time to ask yourself if you really want to be allied with people who know the game far better then you do. And, hey, look, one of those people hurt her head during the challenge. So why no vote out Kelly?

I am sorry, but anyone who claims to be a fan of the show and doesn't realize that you vote off people who have played before immediately deserves to lose.

I can see that Reem might have been a pain in the butt, although no one actually said anything to her in camp and the you move our stuff excuse came up at tribal, but take the person who did fine in the challenges, was trying to teach a tribe member to swim better, and was helping at camp over the person who has played twice before and is willing to stab people in the back, I mean, seriously?

And I can get why Reem did not want to be seen as a Mom, Moms get voted out quickly or lose at final tribal because they were a Mom so how could they stab people in the back. That said, perhaps Reem should have cut back on the Mom like behavior. I still think it is a bit crazy that people were upset that she was trying to prevent people from dehydrating and trying to dry their clothes.

The overall premise is awful. I hate Redemption Island/Exile Island/Extinction Island. When you are voted out, you are voted out. Just go away. This screams "We brought back our favorites and need to protect them" which I hate.

I love everything about this post.

21 hours ago, Bucket said:

Very smart thing to do.  Kudos Victoria. 

Probably would've been smarter to watch more than the first episode of a season, but it's better than nothing I guess!

20 hours ago, LadyChatts said:

The yellow tribe didn't seem to get much focus last night, besides Joe, Aubry, Eric, and Gavin.  I know we saw Ron with his advantage and Julie saying how she sucks at the outdoor experience.  Did anyone else get a confessional?  Oh, Aurora, but that was a quick one, too.  

Victoria also got one which is why I have a feeling she might be important later on. But I've thought that before and then the person turned out to be a full on dud so!

Also, there's an Aurora? I normally am actually not too bad at remembering most of them after the first ep tbh, but with this one I have no idea who most of them are.

[green]

38 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

What evidence is there that Reem is stronger than any of her tribe members.   Is she stronger than Wardog, Chris, Rick?  Kelley is a fit, athletic 31 year old who has played twice before.  Lauren is a 21 year old, fit, D1 athlete.   Keith is a 19 year old fairly fit young man.  Wendy is 25 and seems to be in better shape than Reem.  

David has played before and made it almost to the end.  He also won 3 individual challenges, so it would be hard to assume that he would be weaker than Reem in challenges.  

Well we SAW that Kelley was weaker in the challenge and that Keith was a poor swimmer in the ocean.  The stronger person -- Reem -- was even helping Keith get better.  Reem was in no way shape or form weak in the challenge.

And saying other players can NOT be weak because they are in their 20's is just what Reem was saying.  Making assumptions based on age.  We see plenty 20-somethings be bad at challenges so no I don't buy that 20-somethings are more "fit" at challenges than anyone else.  That is pure ageism crap totally.  And sexism too because it assumes that women age worse than men.  Unless an older man is also grossly looking unfit -- stomach sticking out TWO full six packs say -- he usually gets the pass over an older woman.

The so-called "cool kids" did what the cool kids always do.  Target older women first.  Especially since this one was seen hanging with (helping) their token Black and being friends with their token Latina who also has facial ticks.  How very convenient for them. 

Yeah I wish Reem hadn't dried their clothes for them just so they had to wear damp, salt-encrusted clothes instead.  But then they would complain that she wasn't helping enough and as a mom should have known to take their clothes out to the sunny beach for them.  Anything she did would have been attacked.  She had no chance.

Yeah she fought back at tribal.  She knew she was toast and went down fighting which would be praised in a man.  But older women in particular and women in general are suppose to get voted out and be humble about it all.  Ain't gonna happen anymore.  Enough of weak woman.

[peachmangosteen]

9 minutes ago, green said:

Yeah I wish Reem hadn't dried their clothes for them just so they had to wear damp, salt-encrusted clothes instead.  But then they would complain that she wasn't helping enough and as a mom should have known to take their clothes out to the sunny beach for them.

LMAO this is so true.

I think it's fairly obvious that Reem got voted out because people assumed she would be weak in the future simply because she was the oldest woman and because she annoyed some people more than the others did. I just wish people would be honest about it, especially in the first vote. It's been 3 days, we all know that the only real things to go on are assumptions about future performance and personal reasons. Just say that's why! But people try to make themselves out to have better/more tangible reasons than that and they end up looking like assholes or idiots.

Edited February 22, 2019 by peachmangosteen

[NutMeg]

As a season opener (which I too forgot about and watched the next day), this wasn't too bad, even though it left me thinking that in the last few seasons I used to get a better feel of everyone after the double length first episode.

About the returnees, I don't really mind them, and I like that they all have more weaknesses that strengths as Survivor players. Aubry might or might not gel with her castmates. I see David probably doing better at the social game, but both carry the returnee stigma. Joe is still Joe, having the time of his life, he's really an Ozzy type, without the drive to win, it seems to me. As for Kelley, I don't know what to think really, I liked her well enough her first season, but I tend to prefer players who have fun playing, and I don't think she enjoys herself in the game, plus she grated a bit in this episode.

There were a few cute or surprising moment. The swimming lesson, which backfired immediately though. David acing the balance beam on his first try, who would've thought? Ditto Aubry. David being moved that he's asked for advice on how to build the shelter.

Regarding the challenge, I half listen to the instructions: were they told they had to climb to ropes using only arm strength? Because last time I tried, I could climb a rope relatively quickly, but I always use my feet too - arms only and I can't climb for dear life.

I started liking Reem at the end, when she hoped her family and friends don't also find her overbearing, so I'm happy she's still in the game somehow. Although, as someone already wrote, I don't like this extra island because it will limit the time we get of the players at camp (I remember a season which felt like it was just one challenge after the next).  

[Bryce Lynch]

30 minutes ago, green said:

Well we SAW that Kelley was weaker in the challenge and that Keith was a poor swimmer in the ocean.  The stronger person -- Reem -- was even helping Keith get better.  Reem was in no way shape or form weak in the challenge.

And saying other players can NOT be weak because they are in their 20's is just what Reem was saying.  Making assumptions based on age.  We see plenty 20-somethings be bad at challenges so no I don't buy that 20-somethings are more "fit" at challenges than anyone else.  That is pure ageism crap totally.  And sexism too because it assumes that women age worse than men.  Unless an older man is also grossly looking unfit -- stomach sticking out TWO full six packs say -- he usually gets the pass over an older woman.

The so-called "cool kids" did what the cool kids always do.  Target older women first.  Especially since this one was seen hanging with (helping) their token Black and being friends with their token Latina who also has facial ticks.  How very convenient for them. 

Yeah I wish Reem hadn't dried their clothes for them just so they had to wear damp, salt-encrusted clothes instead.  But then they would complain that she wasn't helping enough and as a mom should have known to take their clothes out to the sunny beach for them.  Anything she did would have been attacked.  She had no chance.

Yeah she fought back at tribal.  She knew she was toast and went down fighting which would be praised in a man.  But older women in particular and women in general are suppose to get voted out and be humble about it all.  Ain't gonna happen anymore.  Enough of weak woman.

Wow!  So you think the tribe suffers from a very, specific bigotry against middle aged women, but keep young black men and Latinas with tourette's around as "tokens".   

IIRC, Wentworth was trying to cross the beam when it was still narrow when she fell.  She is clearly not "weaker" than Reem and she has 4 individual challenge wins under her belt.   She is clearly physically fit.  Lauren is clearly, very physically fit.   Wendy is more questionable.   All the men are pretty clearly stronger than Reem.  A man in decent shape is typically going to be stronger than a 46 year old woman is so-so shape.  

Reem did nothing to prove she was stronger than any other tribemates, she messed with their stuff without asking, was annoying, rather obviously created a 3 person "power trio". and instead of trying to smooth things over at TC, she doubled down and was super obnoxious.    

Keith read the room and realized the power trio was going to get voted out wisely abandoned it.  Wendy was at least willing to discuss options with Wardog, but almost got herself voted out by pushing for them to keep Reem.

Reem made just about every bad move you can make in episode 1, and being a 46 year old woman who is not in fantastic shape had her at a disadvantage to begin with.  Not because people hate or discriminate against 46 year old women, but because they are generally among the weakest in the tribe.  She was one of the most obvious first boots ever and mostly because of the mistakes she made.  

She did so many things wrong, I almost wonder if she was trying to make herself the goat, thinking people would want to drag her to FTC for any easy win. 

Edited February 22, 2019 by Bryce Lynch

[NutMeg]

44 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Wow!  So you think the tribe suffers from a very, specific bigotry against middle aged women, but keep young black men and Latinas with tourette's around as "tokens". 

I'm not the original poster, but I think that yes, it's possible. We as a society are of have been made aware of how it can look to target minorities based on skin colour, ethnicity, handicap, sexual orientation. However women still remain targeted more than men at the beginning of most seasons, and older people more than younger (again, most seasons), at least in the initial stage. So a woman who is older than the rest of the tribe still faces a huge hurdle when that tribe goes first to tribal council. Wether it's because they are "bossy", "a mom", "weak", these are often justification, any woman above 40 can easily be perceived in a way that fits at least one of these narratives. Strong and not nurturing? Bossy! Talk her mind but physically weak? A mom!! Speaks her mind and take care of things around camp? Will be weak in challenges!!! 

I don't thing it's "bigotry against middle age women", more like an easy consensus that most of the tribe is likely to rationalise in some way, so easy target.  

[Jobiska]

Looked like David was starting a stye or other sort of irritant on his upper eyelid, and I thought Kelley looked very, very tired at the very least, possibly sick or perhaps still slightly concussed?, at TC.  Her eyes were narrow and a bit puffy-lidded rather than big and round and she looked quite wan.  

In an early TH Lauren raved about Kelley being her idol and Joe being her Survivor crush, so I think their pairing was based more on just "oh yeah I played soccer too."  It's flattering to have someone idolize you, especially if they aren't fawning, and since they were alone in the soccer scene, they probably talked further game/alliance then too.

I've noticed a trend on message boards over the years that "going through people's stuff" to look for idols etc. is anathema to many, more unforgivable than almost any other Survivor sin, and yet a lot of posters are ready to forgive Reem for putting stuff out to dry/moving stuff without asking.  By this measure, one would think it incumbent upon an idol possessor to tell everyone "don't go through my stuff."  I'm with Nashville (I think it was he) a page or so back that your stuff is your only measure of privacy, and the person touching it should ask, rather than you have to preemptively tell people not to.  

Now I'm actually not one of those people who thinks that looking in bags is that horrible, and I don't think Reem's actions were that horrible either, but they weren't great.

Probst's bright blue shoes in the intro scene made him look like a proud preschooler to me.  Maybe they light up!

Edited to add:  I hope there are fish that like to eat bananas, because there definitely were a lot of things floating away.

Edited February 22, 2019 by Jobiska

[Ms Blue Jay]

Sure, some people are really annoying but Reem wasn't being that annoying before TC.  Then at TC she ramped it up.  She moved their clothes around.  Nobody corrected the behaviour.  They stood around and gossiped about it.  Except for people like Wendy and Keith, who didn't find it valuable to find people out there to bang, but instead found it valuable to make shelter and valuable connections with people.  It is absolutely not just a coincidence that Reem is the oldest on the tribe and also the person that was targeted for being so called weak and annoying.  I agree with the poster that said that age as the reason for targeting comes first and the justifications come later.

There are older people that are good at sneaking under the radar, but what a lot of new older contestants don't realize is you have to be extremely, extremely good at that.  Because age makes you a target immediately.  Younger players can sneak under the radar for much longer.  Unfortunately, the youth seem to have the power in this game because Jeff and company don't like to have many people over 40 on this show.  Maybe even 35.  I don't know.  

I think it's easy to see why Kelley W is a little offputting, it's her body language

Rarely looks people in the eye, at least, it always seems she is looking upward or downward
Often clenching her jaw, which reads a little like "I'm annoyed"
Rarely smiles
(Was anyone else a fan of the show "Lie to Me"?)

It's not typical.  And I understand this read of her is gendered.  But I think that her weird body language is potentially offputting.  It definitely seemed like she was annoyed with several of the people who were trying to talk to her in the episode, for whatever reason.  

Edited February 22, 2019 by Ms Blue Jay

[gesundheit]

I have to say I didn't hate the hour-length, but I do think the 90-minute premiere is the most ideal. I loathed the 2-hour premieres.

I kind of enjoyed Reem until her TC meltdown. (Also good god, "old lady?" I have no idea how old she is, but I'm 100% she's not "old.")

Not a hater of the chance-to-come-back conceits either (man am I in the minority on everything today!), and this one is interesting since the players don't know about it. (I reserve the chance to hate it once we actually learn the rules of it, though.) What really infuriated me about the various return-island past seasons, though, is that I think they should send people back earlier. I can't remember the finer points but I remember one season Ozzy was on the final 3 and of course since he'd been gone half the damn game, nobody on the jury was bitter against him since he hadn't played a part in voting them out. Part of the fun of the game in FTC is having to convince people you voted out/blindsided/lied to to give you a million bucks.

[Ms Blue Jay]

9 hours ago, Wandering Snark said:

I'm sure it won't happen early on but as things wear on I can imagine a person getting voted out thinking "Yeah, my 'adventure' is done, I hate this shit..." and choosing to just go home with their time on Survivor behind them. We've seen some people get pretty beaten down out there I wouldn't blame anyone for saying they've had enough.

Yes, maybe by that time they'll miss food, or their family too much.  If it was Carl he'd miss beer.

[Ms Blue Jay]

3 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Annoying people often don't know they are annoying and miss or ignore cues from the people they are annoying.   Annoyingness is a true case of perception equaling reality.  If you think I am annoying, then, to you, I am annoying.  If at least 6 of my other 8 tribe members think I am annoying , then I am annoying to my tribe.  

Yes, but demographics of people very often fuel that subjective interpretation of what annoying is.  Sometimes a person's race, gender, age, etc. even face makes another person say "Boy that person is ANNOYING" or "Boy that person is ARROGANT" before they've even said a word.  Like I just said upthread, people expect women to smile and sometimes people expect people of colour to be quieter than they expect others to be.  

Edited February 22, 2019 by Ms Blue Jay

[KimberStormer]

3 hours ago, NutMeg said:

As for Kelley, I don't know what to think really, I liked her well enough her first season, but I tend to prefer players who have fun playing, and I don't think she enjoys herself in the game

That's so interesting.  I think of her as someone who absolutely enjoys the game.  When she's hamming it up the way that everybody hates -- mugging for the confessional cam, being demonstrative at tribal, etc -- it just reads to me like she's having the time of her life out there.

Does this look like a girl who's not enjoying herself??

[Nashville]

1 hour ago, Jobiska said:

Now I'm actually not one of those people who thinks that looking in bags is that horrible, and I don't think Reem's actions were that horrible either, but they weren't great.

Reem’s worst offenses in all this were absolutely shitty timing coupled with absolutely shitty follow-through.  

1. The first eviction or two are always the most superficial, simply because nobody’s had much of a chance to get truly familiar with anybody else.  That’s the nature of the beast - so don’t do anything blatantly overt in the first few days which might give other people ammunition to use against you at TC.
2. Ok, so let’s assume for the moment Reem’s motivations were pure as the driven snow.  The moment folks started voicing reasons why they had a problem, DON’T DIG IN AND GET DEFENSIVE.  Just apologize, even if you don’t really feel like you have anything to apologize for.  Pretend you’re talking to your boss, the person you’re hoping to fuck later, whatever.  Just swallow all your good intentions and rationalizations and say, “I’m SO sorry, it never occurred to me someone might take it that way, and I swear I’ll never do it again without asking first.”  Because here’s the thing: either their reactions are genuine - in which case you DID cause offense, however unintentionally - or their reactions are not genuine - in which case they’re trying to tune you up in front of the others to make an argument for your eviction, and the absolute LAST thing in the world you need to do is give them more ammo.  Don’t engage - defuse.

1 hour ago, Jobiska said:

Probst's bright blue shoes in the intro scene made him look like a proud preschooler to me.  Maybe they light up!

Considering the size of those freakishly huge blue boats on Peachy’s feet, I was wondering if they floated.

[Bryce Lynch]

2 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Sure, some people are really annoying but Reem wasn't being that annoying before TC.  Then at TC she ramped it up.  She moved their clothes around.  Nobody corrected the behaviour.  They stood around and gossiped about it.  Except for people like Wendy and Keith, who didn't find it valuable to find people out there to bang, but instead found it valuable to make shelter and valuable connections with people.  It is absolutely not just a coincidence that Reem is the oldest on the tribe and also the person that was targeted for being so called weak and annoying.  I agree with the poster that said that age as the reason for targeting comes first and the justifications come later.

There are older people that are good at sneaking under the radar, but what a lot of new older contestants don't realize is you have to be extremely, extremely good at that.  Because age makes you a target immediately.  Younger players can sneak under the radar for much longer.  Unfortunately, the youth seem to have the power in this game because Jeff and company don't like to have many people over 40 on this show.  Maybe even 35.  I don't know.  

I think it's easy to see why Kelley W is a little offputting, it's her body language

Rarely looks people in the eye, at least, it always seems she is looking upward or downward
Often clenching her jaw, which reads a little like "I'm annoyed"
Rarely smiles
(Was anyone else a fan of the show "Lie to Me"?)

It's not typical.  And I understand this read of her is gendered.  But I think that her weird body language is potentially offputting.  It definitely seemed like she was annoyed with several of the people who were trying to talk to her in the episode, for whatever reason.  

I don't think a tribe would target a 46 year old woman or man, if that person was the strongest or one of the strongest people in the tribe.  The fact is that, usually,  the oldest woman in the tribe is the weakest or one of the weakest.  

If they let 10 year old kids compete on Survivor and the 10 year olds often got voted out first, would it be because they were young, so people claimed they were weak, or would it be because they were actually weak, because they were so young?

We probably saw about 15 minutes of interactions within the whole tribe, prior to TC , out of about 72 hours they were together.  Reem was super annoying a TC, so why should we assume she was not annoying at all, prior to TC?

Can anyone make a strong case that Reem was stronger than any of the other tribe mates?

[princelina]

14 hours ago, HurricaneVal said:

I am so tired of the "cool kid" cliques on shows like Survivor and Big Brother always targeting people from the Freaks & Geeks coalition.  What are they so threatened about?  And, why, when given the opportunity, are the nerds always slobbering over throwing their own kind under the bus for the possibility to hang with the cool kids for the hot minute of a Tribal Council vote?

Maybe your second question is the answer to your first 😄

7 hours ago, himela said:

The way I see it, people are so used to people talking with hints and not saying what they really mean that a person who is open at what they are thinking just seems weird and maybe annoying to them. Many people found Wendy annoying as well. Do we want players who just float and never talk? Don't we want entertainment on a show like Survivor? Other than that, why didn't anyone tell her "please do not touch my things"? And lastly, JT and Stephen were a power couple who were not in a romantic relationship (I can't remember more atm).

Our problem is it doesn't matter what we want, it matters how the rest of the tribe sees the person.  And the ones who often try to provide entertainment in their THs get slammed by us for being annoying 😄

4 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

I think it's fairly obvious that Reem got voted out because people assumed she would be weak in the future simply because she was the oldest woman and because she annoyed some people more than the others did. I just wish people would be honest about it, especially in the first vote. It's been 3 days, we all know that the only real things to go on are assumptions about future performance and personal reasons. Just say that's why! But people try to make themselves out to have better/more tangible reasons than that and they end up looking like assholes or idiots.

The one guy was honest about it I thought, and it kind of hurt her feelings.  I think they usually trying to be nice this early in the game.  As Jeff said, someone has to go first.  And as I have said in the past, if I were playing I would expect it to be me as a 51 year old woman - I would try to be as unobtrusive and helpful as possible those first three days, as well as making sure everyone knew how annoying the annoying ones were!

[Lamima]

23 hours ago, Archery said:

I love that Keith spent time learning how to swim better.  He clearly has the mechanics, but it'll be in the stress of a challenge that he needs confidence.  Keep practicing, bro.  And good on Wendy and Reem for helping.  Someone upthread implied he doesn't seem to have what it takes.  To that, I'd say, Go watch Cirie's first season.  

That said, bye, Reem.  

I love Jeff P's expressions during the first couple of TCs.  The Castaways always pontificate about theory and strategy, and Jeff always has a look like, "You people know I've heard this thirty-something times already, right?  It's not gonna go anywhere near what you're expecting.  But keep talking."   

Cirie never whined about missing her mama. She was a tough cookie. And a good gamer (outwit). Keith does not seem to have that part but it is a bit early to say.

[JudyObscure]

Reem annoyed me by being bossy.  If I was sitting around taking a break and she walked by and told me to drink water I would want to vote her out.  At least until I remembered what I was there for and voted out one of the returnees. 

But I was totally on her side when she said that being 46 didn't mean she was bad at challenges.  People think they can just look at someone and tell if they're "fit" or not.  They can't.   You need some lab work a blood pressure gauge,, an EKG machine and a dozen other tests just to begin to gauge fitness. Firm thighs and a flat stomach tell us very little about actual fitness.  When I was in my 20's and 30's people would often describe me as fit, because I was 5'6" and 110 pounds.  I was that thin because I smoked two packs a day.  I would have self-evicted after three hours on Survivor.

And "fit,"  for what exactly?  Not since Stephanie and a bunch of men walked around a circle with back packs of rocks has there been a real  test of individual strength.  Those slim young women and muscular men might have horrible balance, low pain tolerance for the endurance challenges, fear of deep water, bad small motor skills for untying knots, and be braindead at puzzles.

[peachmangosteen]

3 hours ago, KimberStormer said:

That's so interesting.  I think of her as someone who absolutely enjoys the game.  When she's hamming it up the way that everybody hates -- mugging for the confessional cam, being demonstrative at tribal, etc -- it just reads to me like she's having the time of her life out there.

She did seem like she was having a blast in Second Chances, not so much in BvW though imo. And this time, so far, I'm with the person who thought she looked ill. And her eye rolls came off more annoyed and bitchy than fun and snarky to me. Maybe she's concussed, although I'm sure they checked her so that's doubtful.

Edited February 22, 2019 by peachmangosteen

[Archery]

2 hours ago, Lamima said:

Cirie never whined about missing her mama. She was a tough cookie. And a good gamer (outwit). Keith does not seem to have that part but it is a bit early to say.

Cirie was a self-described unathletic "couch potato" who, in her first episode was afraid of leaves.  She was also a mastermind. 

I may be alone, but I think the immunity menu is wonderfully diabolical. You've got to use it before you really know your tribe well, and you have to, in the moment, decide to use it as an immunity idol for yourself, take the other team's reward, or steal/add a vote (I don't remember which).  That's some dangerous strategizing you have to do, and two out of three of them have the potential to backfire spectacularly.  Love it.   

Edited February 22, 2019 by Archery

[NutMeg]

4 hours ago, KimberStormer said:

That's so interesting.  I think of her as someone who absolutely enjoys the game.  When she's hamming it up the way that everybody hates -- mugging for the confessional cam, being demonstrative at tribal, etc -- it just reads to me like she's having the time of her life out there.

Does this look like a girl who's not enjoying herself??

Ah, you got me there, great find! I'm pretty sure this is not from this season, though. Was this a TH when she had a secret idol? Is she really a cuter, female version of Russell who gets happier with each idol secretly found?

[Souris]

On 2/21/2019 at 5:44 AM, Bryce Lynch said:

He goes to Duke now, but he said he grew up living in a trailer.  He seems like a kid who pulled himself up by his own bootstraps, so I am not going to knock him for not being a good swimmer.

I grew up poor in a rural town in N.C. and never had formal swimming lessons. I happened to have a more well-off friend whose family had a pool, and she taught me swimming basics in elementary school. If not for her, I probably wouldn't have learned until college (IIRC our high-school water-safety section in middle-school health class only really involved learning how to tread water, plus textbook boating stuff about port, starboard and buoys). I can freestyle and backstroke enough to pass the swim test I needed to graduate UNC, and can get back and forth on laps, but my form is utterly terrible. Everybody SHOULD know how to swim, but not everybody does. It sounded like Keith had at least tried to learn before coming on the show.

On 2/21/2019 at 7:08 PM, meep.meep said:

Swimming in the ocean is really different than swimming in a lake or a pool.  So says Sandra, two time Survivor winner.  Keith may have taken lessons to prepare, but it's hard to apply them in the actual sloshing around ocean.

Yes, it is quite different! I went snorkeling in the Florida Keys and probably would have drowned if not for my life-vest. I still swallowed a heck of a lot of ocean water thanks to all the waves. Calm pool water is a lot different than ocean water! I'm sure that affected Keith a lot, too.

Keith seems sweet but not long for the game. And there is that Duke factor for this UNC girl.... 😉

I'd have been hella pissed if somebody had moved my clothes without asking. Reem really did herself no favors, especially at tribal council.

I love Aubrey and I don't like that guy targeting her. He may be technically right about not wanting a veteran to go far, but he put me off with his manner about it and the automatic targeting of the woman instead of the guy (even if the guy is a challenge monster in Joe).

[green]

8 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Wow!  So you think the tribe suffers from a very, specific bigotry against middle aged women, but keep young black men and Latinas with tourette's around as "tokens".

No.  I did NOT say that.

They weren't the tribe's tokens.  They were Survivor "tokens" as in Survivor has very obvious quotas on how many "minority" people they cast.  Last season one of the Black players was a last minute add for someone that dropped out but usually there aren't as many so-called minority players as even last season.  And a lot less this season.  A quota that caps a race or ethic minority is pretty much by definition causing those people to be "tokens."

OT:  Ethnic minority as in Hispanic/Latino players.  They are NOT a "race" but rather a cultural group formed around an original mother tongue and the culture (religion, traditions, books, TV, music etc) that that language produced.  Then it still becomes a generalized culture even when descents may lose the original mother tongue because the culture still is binding by then.

Hispanics come in ALL shades of various colors from porcelain white to ebony dark.  Sorry but having Hispanics suddenly becoming a "race" these last few decades drives me up the wall.  But hey science is more and more disregarded in this country so I shouldn't be surprised.

[Ms Blue Jay]

5 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Can anyone make a strong case that Reem was stronger than any of the other tribe mates?

You can't make that case about any of the contestants.

[violet and green]

5 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

The fact is that, usually,  the oldest woman in the tribe is the weakest or one of the weakest.  

No - the assumption is usually that.

5 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Can anyone make a strong case that Reem was stronger than any of the other tribe mates?

You want evidence to disprove your assumption!

[marys1000]

16 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Are Lauren and Kelley really a power couple?  Why? Because they both played soccer?  Power couples are usually in romantic relationships.

Players usually don't start worrying about power couples at the first TC.  There is still plenty of time to get rid of one or both later.

The focus is usually on 1) keeping the tribe strong 2) Keeping players you have a good relationship with or are working with 3) Getting rid of people who make camp life unpleasant.

Voting out Reem fit with all 3 of those criteria.

Plus, she had an alliance of 3, which is much more dangerous than a supposed power couple.

Kelley is a known goodplayer and Lauren seems pretty sharp and fit too.  They were shown as being very tight and since Wendy noticed and thought it was a problem I think we can say beyond a doubt that yes - they are a power couple, power alliance, whatever.  And I think the two fit and smart cuties with sex appeal trump the 3 misfits as a threat.  

Not sure I'd have bet against Reem in a fight against any of the other women.  

Edited February 23, 2019 by marys1000

[KimberStormer]

5 hours ago, NutMeg said:

Ah, you got me there, great find! I'm pretty sure this is not from this season, though. Was this a TH when she had a secret idol? Is she really a cuter, female version of Russell who gets happier with each idol secretly found?

You're right, it's from Second Chances, and she found an idol in the first episode of that so maybe that's what filled her with good cheer.  Although she had to fetch it during the challenge, which was one of the greatest-ever Survivor nailbiters.

[SVNBob]

3 hours ago, marys1000 said:

they are a power couple, power alliance, whatever.

At some point in the recent past (maybe back in HHH*), I advocated for the term "Power Pair" for any Survivor twosome in lockstep.  Power Couple should be reserved for a pair like that with the added romantic/sexual elements.

So Lauren might be in a Power Pair with Kelley, but she'd prefer to be in a Power Couple with Joe.

ETA: *Nope.  This was in GI, re: Dom and Wendell primarily.

Edited February 23, 2019 by SVNBob

[himela]

Personally I feel way more comfortable next to a person like Reem who is an open book than a person who talks with hints and is careful about what they are saying. Reem, Wendy and Keith seem a good alliance to join and vote out the returning players which is the right thing to do! Plus you give the message to the newbies from the other tribe that the returning players need to go and then the new players play their game. I don't ever see a good reason to keep returning players, even if they are great at challenges like Joe. Not on Survivor, not on Big Brother. Vote them out and go from there.

[EllenB]

Jeffy and his new blue shoes.  Appropriately, it's a blue-footed booby.

[Nashville]

28 minutes ago, himela said:

Personally I feel way more comfortable next to a person like Reem who is an open book than a person who talks with hints and is careful about what they are saying.

Maybe IRL; in Survivor, not so much.  A person who can’t help but wear their emotions on their sleeve makes for a shitty alliance partner - THEIR personal irritations with other players will get BOTH of you targeted.

[SVNBob]

First Secret Scene of the season.  It's most of Kama (the Yellow Tribe) talking about the two elephants in their room, and what to do about them.

[himela]

1 hour ago, Nashville said:

Maybe IRL; in Survivor, not so much.  A person who can’t help but wear their emotions on their sleeve makes for a shitty alliance partner - THEIR personal irritations with other players will get BOTH of you targeted.

I get what you are saying, but if you are in a majority alliance, you don't have much to worry about AND you always know they mean what they say. Plus, they will be targeted first because of their open personality when the time comes.

Reem in particular is the perfect person to put in front of you, let her make plans etc, piss people off and in the final tribal council you can say "well I was a team with her and we were working together, but I was nice towards all of you" and you get the votes to win.

[mikewho]

Damn, I didn't even realize it had premiered. I used to look for it diligently. 

I still like it but by now, I realize there's always going to be some kind of twist, so might as well just go along with it, instead of judging it. I really hate this phrase, but 'It is what it is'. It's something to follow for three months.

I thought it was an interesting enough show. I don't really want to get into the whole 'Was REEM targeted for her age, her attitude, her behavior, or a combination of all three?' All I know, from what I was shown...she would've driven me fuckin' crazy.

[ByaNose]

I’m dying to see how Reem survived her first night on Extinction Island. It was rainy and super dark. And, that’s just the first night. If she can make it 3 days to see who shows up it will be fun to see who shows up next and how it plays out. Will she crawl up in a ball and fall apart or will she pull herself together and make it her island (Sorry Troyzan) and, set the tone like people do at Ponderosa?!

[jay741982]

On 2/22/2019 at 6:06 AM, himela said:

I don't understand why people are so negative towards Reem. She started being weird AT tribal council, after she had found out they were gunning for her. I don't want to play the man versus woman card, but lets imagine a man were in her place, what would we say for him trying to save himself? Reem had the best idea after they lost the immunity challenge, vote out the one of the power couple because power couples are meant to be split, and the one being Wentworth makes it even more necessary. She may have been a little too out there with the conversation with Rick (?) but this is her way of talking. Anyway, my opinion is she was just voted out because of being the oldest and everything else was an excuse.

There is no "power couple" on Day Freaking 3 

[jay741982]

On 2/22/2019 at 2:09 PM, KimberStormer said:

That's so interesting.  I think of her as someone who absolutely enjoys the game.  When she's hamming it up the way that everybody hates -- mugging for the confessional cam, being demonstrative at tribal, etc -- it just reads to me like she's having the time of her life out there.

Does this look like a girl who's not enjoying herself??

I remember some people  getting mad cause how dare Kelley enjoy blindsiding Savage! She should've been Emotionless lol and again with this episode how dare she roll her eyes when someone was obnixous. Her behavior wasnt even bad I've seen worse 

Edited February 23, 2019 by jay741982

[jay741982]

15 hours ago, marys1000 said:

Kelley is a known goodplayer and Lauren seems pretty sharp and fit too.  They were shown as being very tight and since Wendy noticed and thought it was a problem I think we can say beyond a doubt that yes - they are a power couple, power alliance, whatever.  And I think the two fit and smart cuties with sex appeal trump the 3 misfits as a threat.  

Not sure I'd have bet against Reem in a fight against any of the other women.  

Can Not be a power couple before the first freaking vote and 3 is bigger than 2 

[himela]

32 minutes ago, jay741982 said:

There is no "power couple" on Day Freaking 3 

Says who?

[violet and green]

1 hour ago, jay741982 said:

Can Not be a power couple before the first freaking vote and 3 is bigger than 2 

Well, the 'three' were not exactly tight given Keith tattled on them in three seconds flat.

They are a power couple. Kelley, being arrogant and entitled and/or 'cool' is automatically going to mow down the meeker and be bowed down to by many - she steered the notion of the 'three' as first vote-off choices with an offhand joke.

She is also, we heard in that early confessional, adored by college athlete and personable pretty-girl Lauren, who will follow her about like a lap dog - and who Kelley was expressly working on bonding with, she told us, and demonstrated her 'people skills' as she did so.

If Kelley had power and authority in that tribe before whatever vote - and she did -and Lauren is glued to her hip panting with hero-worship, and the men are also  - gosh! - more likely to vote out the goofy woman or the older woman or the sweet 'nerdy' black guy over the 'pretty girl' and the authoratitive 'cool girl'... then they are a power couple. A for more threatening power couple/voting block than those idiots who spoon in the shelter from night one.