S38.E01: It Smells Like Success

[ByaNose]

39 minutes ago, mikewho said:

Karma can be a bitch.

Yes. Never wish anything to the Survivor Gods. They are always listening.

[mikewho]

Survivor Gods. You just gave me nightmare flashbacks to Linda (Season 3) and her 'Mother Africa Spirits'.

And Joanne(?) Season 6, who swore they got a bad thunderstorm because they had a false idol at their camp. The Immunity Idol. Hallelujah!

REEM will probably call hers 'Fuck this shit.'

Edited February 26, 2019 by mikewho

[violet and green]

8 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Were any of the older women voted out first challenge beasts?  I suspect that most actually were the weakest or among the weakest in their tribes.

Even if a one or two might have been voted off based upon assumptions, rather than actually being the weakest, that is not "misogny", it is playing the percentages.

You just keep restating your assumptions regarding women and age; I'm not sure where you get them from. I don't think Chrissy Hofbek was weak; or the woman the same age (46) on her tribe who was some sort of champion swimmer from memory who got voted out first. I wouldn't call Shane Gould (61) from the most recent Australian Survivor weak, either.

I wasn't calling the tribe misogynistic for choosing her, by the way.

[Bryce Lynch]

31 minutes ago, violet and green said:

You just keep restating your assumptions regarding women and age; I'm not sure where you get them from. I don't think Chrissy Hofbek was weak; or the woman the same age (46) on her tribe who was some sort of champion swimmer from memory who got voted out first. I wouldn't call Shane Gould (61) from the most recent Australian Survivor weak, either.

I wasn't calling the tribe misogynistic for choosing her, by the way.

Chrissy didn't get voted off first, or at all.   

I never said ALL older women are weak.  I said that they are generally the weakest demographic.   I saw no evidence that Reem was an exception to this and stronger than any of her tribemates.  

[violet and green]

6 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Chrissy didn't get voted off first, or at all.   

I never said ALL older women are weak.  I said that they are generally the weakest demographic.   I saw no evidence that Reem was an exception to this and stronger than any of her tribemates.  

I didn't say that. This is getting tiring. Reread my post.

[Nashville]

2 hours ago, mikewho said:

Karma can be a bitch.

So can Reem, it would appear. 😉

[green]

9 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Were any of the older women voted out first challenge beasts?  I suspect that most actually were the weakest or among the weakest in their tribes.

Even if a one or two might have been voted off based upon assumptions, rather than actually being the weakest, that is not "misogny", it is playing the percentages.

If you had to choose a team, for an athletic contest, for a lot of money, and all you had to go on was their age, gender and appearance, would you choose all the older women first?  I think most people would pick the younger, most fit looking males first, then the younger more fit looking women or average looking males, then the older males and finally the older women.

There is a chance they could end up passing on a couple of middle aged women who are Olympic champions.  But, the odds are, the older women will be the weakest physically.  

Also, older women are not targeted first as often as people probably think.  Roughly 10 have been voted out first, which is about the same number of "pretty girls" voted out first.

Reem did fine at the challenge.  And she sure as hell can swim well. 

Each person is an individual.  Viewing them as a group identity is stereotyping an already wrong stereotype. 

I feel like with attitudes like this we are back in the 1800's.  This post makes me sad big time.

[violet and green]

3 minutes ago, green said:

I feel like with attitudes like this we are back in the 1800's.  This post makes me sad big time.

I'm imagining Survivor season 41: Survivor Crinolines! Jif: "And the rules of this obstacle challenge are, no woman may remove her hooped skirt, or her corset. Survivors, ready!"

[Bryce Lynch]

23 minutes ago, green said:

Reem did fine at the challenge.  And she sure as hell can swim well. 

Each person is an individual.  Viewing them as a group identity is stereotyping an already wrong stereotype. 

I feel like with attitudes like this we are back in the 1800's.  This post makes me sad big time.

Because of the nature of the challenge, everyone appeared to do fine and no better than fine, except for Joe and the guy on the other tribe who climbed the ropes, and the ones who made it across the narrow beam (Reem did not) before the ropes were untied and the the beam was widened making it easy.

The rest of it was the group puzzle and the large groups of people going through the same obstacles at the same time.  FWIW, Reem did get helped over the climbing obstacle, though it is possible that if she had gone first she would have been helping others.   

They didn't show most of the castaways (including Reem I think) going across the rope bridge one by one, but that seemed pretty easy.   

I judge each person as an individual.  There have been some great older women, like 56 year old Jane in Nicaragua, who was a challenge beast and one of my favorite survivors ever.   

But, it really is not some radical or old fashioned idea to say that as a general rule, older women tend to be physically weaker than young men, older men and younger women.   That doesn't mean you vote the old woman out, just because she is old. 

But, it shouldn't be shocking if the oldest woman is the weakest physically in the tribe.   Men are, in general, larger and stronger than women and both men and women tend to get weaker as they grow older, after a certain age (probably in the 30s)

.      

[NutMeg]

Quote

Men are, in general, larger and stronger than women

And when circumstances are not optimal for them, they fall like flies. See for instance Guatemala, where the larger, stronger men were in real physical trouble after a hike with no water.

The women were all fine, by the way. Even the not so young, or fit, or strong ones. Weaker sex, some still say, but they're using a flawed measuring stick. 🤬

[violet and green]

2 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

But, it really is not some radical or old fashioned idea to say that as a general rule, older women tend to be physically weaker than young men, older men and younger women.   That doesn't mean you vote the old woman out, just because she is old. 

I am guessing you must be young. The repeated use of 'old' for a woman in her midforties is therefore unintentionally offensive.

If it was a pure weightlifting contest for 'strength' then men are in general terms often stronger. (Keith doesn't look as if he would be, however, and has already proven himself to be an unsteady swimmer, having required rescuing in the opening scenes.)

2 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

But, it shouldn't be shocking if the oldest woman is the weakest physically in the tribe.   Men are, in general, larger and stronger than women and both men and women tend to get weaker as they grow older, after a certain age (probably in the 30s)

It is not a given that a person gets weaker and weaker, but more a case of use it or lose it.  

Both men and women begin to gradually lose muscle mass with age, usually from their early 40s onwards - but not if they exercise; ie, it is not inevitable or unpreventable.

Studies have shown by MRI that the thigh muscles of male athletes aged in their 70s are on a par with those in their 40s, and also that one can build muscle mass in one's 90s.

It is also not a given that a fit and athletic woman of whatever age is automatically physically weaker in balance, stamina, and agility than a man of similar or younger age.

[ICantDoThatDave]

8 minutes ago, violet and green said:

I am guessing you must be young. The repeated use of 'old' for a woman in her midforties is therefore unintentionally offensive.

In real life, sure.  On Survivor it's simply accurate.  I'm no spring chicken but if I were out there & had a couple days to evaluate my tribe, I'd do exactly what most of these people are doing.

"Hey, see those 3 going off by themselves? The rest of us should totally vote one them out!"

"Hey, that person messing with our stuff? Let's totally vote them out!!" 

"Hey, that person who's older than me? Let's totally vote them out!"

Bonus points to me if someone else suggests any of those & I just have to agree.  First 3 days, *especially if your tribe loses Immunity*, Sandra's "Anybody But Me" is the way to play.

[himela]

4 hours ago, ICantDoThatDave said:

In real life, sure.  On Survivor it's simply accurate.  I'm no spring chicken but if I were out there & had a couple days to evaluate my tribe, I'd do exactly what most of these people are doing.

"Hey, see those 3 going off by themselves? The rest of us should totally vote one them out!"

"Hey, that person messing with our stuff? Let's totally vote them out!!" 

"Hey, that person who's older than me? Let's totally vote them out!"

Bonus points to me if someone else suggests any of those & I just have to agree.  First 3 days, *especially if your tribe loses Immunity*, Sandra's "Anybody But Me" is the way to play.

Unless there are returning players. Then you vote THEM out first.

[amazingracefan]

I don't like Wardog, it was like he was trying to make it into Big Brother where even a pointless single vote has to be controlled to make him happy.

[Bryce Lynch]

10 hours ago, violet and green said:

I am guessing you must be young. The repeated use of 'old' for a woman in her midforties is therefore unintentionally offensive.

If it was a pure weightlifting contest for 'strength' then men are in general terms often stronger. (Keith doesn't look as if he would be, however, and has already proven himself to be an unsteady swimmer, having required rescuing in the opening scenes.)

It is not a given that a person gets weaker and weaker, but more a case of use it or lose it.  

Both men and women begin to gradually lose muscle mass with age, usually from their early 40s onwards - but not if they exercise; ie, it is not inevitable or unpreventable.

Studies have shown by MRI that the thigh muscles of male athletes aged in their 70s are on a par with those in their 40s, and also that one can build muscle mass in one's 90s.

It is also not a given that a fit and athletic woman of whatever age is automatically physically weaker in balance, stamina, and agility than a man of similar or younger age.

There you go with assumptions. 🙂 I am older than Reem, and I am not as strong or fast or fit as I was 10 years ago or 20 years ago.

There are exceptions, but generally people begin to decline athletically around their early to mid 30s.

Maybe Reem is one of those exceptions, but I saw no evidence that she is.  

Reem may well have been the weakest tribe member.  Maybe she wasn't, but never got a chance to prove it.  We are often forced to make decisions based upon incomplete information.  Based upon the incomplete information that we an the tribe have, I don't think it was unreasonable to guess that Reem w the weakest or among the weakest.

At any rate, I think perceived weakness was only a secondary or tertiary factor.

The main factors were:

1) She messed with people's stuff.

2) She annoyed people.

3) She was tight with 2 other players.

4) All these factors gave the others a good target they could easily agree upon to make sure it was "anyone but me."

[blackwing]

Caught up on the episode last night.  So many people that I just don’t like.  There’s still plenty of people that are nameless faces but a few stuck out as especially disagreeable:

”Wardog”.  In addition to giving himself a stupid arrogant nickname (he might as well label himself “He-Man Master of the Universe”), he’s bossy and thinks everyone should do what he says.  And he has particularly crazy serial killer looking eyes.

Kelley.  I hate that Jeffy keeps calling her “Wentworth” when there is no other Kelley, because she is a “legend”.   I love that many of the players kept calling her “Kelley”.  I’m waiting for her to say “my name is Wentworth” because she too seems to have bought in to the fact that she is a legend.  I find her incredibly overrated.  

Joe.  Says he wants to sit back and then proceeds to do everything.  Jeff loves him, the show loves him.  I don’t love him.

I find the anchorman annoying too and I’m not really sure why.  He seems like the classic nerd who now thinks he is cool because he is somehow hanging out with the cool kids.  And I laughed when he said he has a “dad bod”.  A dad bod is someone who was once fit, but now doesn’t have as much time to get to the gym and has let himself go a little bit.   It’s a line between being fit and having a big beer belly.  Like Jon Hamm.  That’s not this guy.  This guy is just overweight, he’s got moobs.

Is this season missing the typical “hot babe” and “brohunk” archetypes.  Didn’t seem like there were many of the usual “young attractive female with long hair” types.  Or the usual brohunks in the vein of Dan and John from last season.  Not sure if the young good looking guy on the losing tribe that crossed the plank first is supposed to be that role.  The cynic in me says it’s to shine the spotlight even more on Jeffy’s faves Joe and Kelley.

[Nashville]

Quote

”Wardog”.  In addition to giving himself a stupid arrogant nickname (he might as well label himself “He-Man Master of the Universe”), he’s bossy and thinks everyone should do what he says.  And he has particularly crazy serial killer looking eyes.

I’m still stuck between Warthog and Battlepup.

Quote

Kelley.  I hate that Jeffy keeps calling her “Wentworth” when there is no other Kelley, because she is a “legend”.   I love that many of the players kept calling her “Kelley”.  I’m waiting for her to say “my name is Wentworth” because she too seems to have bought in to the fact that she is a legend.  I find her incredibly overrated.  

For me, Kelley is the living embodiment of the law of diminishing returns; I liked her a fair bit her first season, not quite as much her next, and she’s leaving me pretty flat this season so far.  The eye-rolling at TC?  Please do me the favor of giving me a fucking break.  I get *why* Kelley was making with the ocular gymnastics; at the time, Reem was going on and on and on - and on - and ON - about the ultimate discriminatory affront represented by Reem’s name actually getting thrown out at TC!!! - but I hated that OMG eyerolling shit back when Eliza was doing it every TC in the Jury box, even.  And to me Kelley’s “returnee” status doesn’t confer upon her the title of Master of All Things Survivor; it just means she has more experience than most on how to lose this game.

Quote

Joe.  Says he wants to sit back and then proceeds to do everything.  Jeff loves him, the show loves him.  I don’t love him.

IMHO I don’t think Joe can help himself; he’s a “people pleaser” personality by nature, which means helpfulness is his default.  Joe will automatically help out folks, even when it’s not in his best interests to do so.  

This is also the same reason I never expect to see Joe holding the $1M check at a season finale - but Joe’s always been a good sport about it, so I don’t mind him having fun living the Survivor experience until his inevitable TC blindside.  🙂

Quote

I find the anchorman annoying too and I’m not really sure why.  He seems like the classic nerd who now thinks he is cool because he is somehow hanging out with the cool kids.  And I laughed when he said he has a “dad bod”.  A dad bod is someone who was once fit, but now doesn’t have as much time to get to the gym and has let himself go a little bit.   It’s a line between being fit and having a big beer belly.  Like Jon Hamm.  That’s not this guy.  This guy is just overweight, he’s got moobs.

I’m surprised I haven’t seen more commentary on the fact that (according to the edit, anyway) Anchorman Ron DadBody was the one who initially pointed out the Keith/Reem/Wendy swim lesson and framed it as a budding alliance.  I think ARDB is the stereotypical playing-too-hard-too-fast-straight-outta-the-gate contestant, so I don’t expect him to be obstructing my view of camp for too long.

Edited February 27, 2019 by Nashville
Like, omigawd

[Bryce Lynch]

2 hours ago, blackwing said:

Caught up on the episode last night.  So many people that I just don’t like.  There’s still plenty of people that are nameless faces but a few stuck out as especially disagreeable:

”Wardog”.  In addition to giving himself a stupid arrogant nickname (he might as well label himself “He-Man Master of the Universe”), he’s bossy and thinks everyone should do what he says.  And he has particularly crazy serial killer looking eyes.

Kelley.  I hate that Jeffy keeps calling her “Wentworth” when there is no other Kelley, because she is a “legend”.   I love that many of the players kept calling her “Kelley”.  I’m waiting for her to say “my name is Wentworth” because she too seems to have bought in to the fact that she is a legend.  I find her incredibly overrated.  

Joe.  Says he wants to sit back and then proceeds to do everything.  Jeff loves him, the show loves him.  I don’t love him.

I find the anchorman annoying too and I’m not really sure why.  He seems like the classic nerd who now thinks he is cool because he is somehow hanging out with the cool kids.  And I laughed when he said he has a “dad bod”.  A dad bod is someone who was once fit, but now doesn’t have as much time to get to the gym and has let himself go a little bit.   It’s a line between being fit and having a big beer belly.  Like Jon Hamm.  That’s not this guy.  This guy is just overweight, he’s got moobs.

Is this season missing the typical “hot babe” and “brohunk” archetypes.  Didn’t seem like there were many of the usual “young attractive female with long hair” types.  Or the usual brohunks in the vein of Dan and John from last season.  Not sure if the young good looking guy on the losing tribe that crossed the plank first is supposed to be that role.  The cynic in me says it’s to shine the spotlight even more on Jeffy’s faves Joe and Kelley.

While Joe said he was gong to put "Joe Amazing" aside, I don't really see much benefit to him not being a huge asset around camp and in challenges.  Everyone already knows how "Amazing" he is, so if he tried to sandbag, he would probably be voted out more quickly.  By building fires with his laser eyes (or was it a big piece of bamboo) and dominating team challenges, he a) Helps keep himself from gong to TC b) Bring value to the tribe, which will make them more reluctant to vote him off early.

I don't think Wentworth is any great legend, but she doesn't bother me either.  

I don't have a big problem with Ron Burgundy, so far.  I thought his spotting and pointing out the Reem, Keith, Wendy alliance was a very good move, and perfect first TC, anybody but me, game play.  

[BonnieD]

Quote

Ozzy's my favourite in the Ozzy-Malcolm-Joe sweepstakes,

It might be interesting to see a show that featured only those three men running around and being amazing at challenges. Maybe a Mini-Survivor handful of episodes. Of course now the age differences between them would factor into how well each could do in competition against the others.  I doubt Ozzy could clamber monkey-like up a tree these days.

ETA. I found this fun link: 

Ahem, not that this has anything to do with the current season. On that topic, I'm not in love with it yet and I'm in the group of people who almost missed that it was back on, if not for DVR automatic recordiing.  The Extinction Island thing could be interesting or just a retread of Redemption. Depends on whether they make them do something REALLY daring like swim shark infested waters or walk on flaming coals to get back into the game.

Edited February 27, 2019 by BonnieD

[violet and green]

23 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

That doesn't mean you vote the old woman out, just because she is old. 

Oh, pardon me. I assumed by the way you called her an old woman and had odd notions regarding the weakness of the 'old' that you must have been a much younger person.

9 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

There are exceptions, but generally people begin to decline athletically around their early to mid 30s.

In terms of professional and elite athletes, performance does start to reduce at a competitive level as time goes on, and also injuries accrue - but there is now good evidence that muscle wastage and weakness, and the lack of strength and balance that follows, is not an essential part of aging, at all.

9 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Based upon the incomplete information that we an the tribe have, I don't think it was unreasonable to guess that Reem w the weakest or among the weakest.

At any rate, I think perceived weakness was only a secondary or tertiary factor.

The main factors were:

1) She messed with people's stuff.

2) She annoyed people.

3) She was tight with 2 other players.

4) All these factors gave the others a good target they could easily agree upon to make sure it was "anyone but me."

I agree with all your points. But you were making another point, over and over, and that was that older woman are inherently always weaker than any other player. Which is not so.

[Wandering Snark]

Okay, this has been bugging me... was 'Wentworth' also 'Purple Kelly' or was that the 'other' Kelly in that season?

---

RetroEdit: Thanks Hanahope

Edited February 27, 2019 by Wandering Snark

[Hanahope]

2 minutes ago, Wandering Snark said:

Okay, this has been bugging me... was 'Wentworth' also 'Purple Kelly' or was that the 'other' Kelly in that season?

No, Purple Kelly was not Kelly Wentworth.

[blackwing]

38 minutes ago, Wandering Snark said:

Okay, this has been bugging me... was 'Wentworth' also 'Purple Kelly' or was that the 'other' Kelly in that season?

---

RetroEdit: Thanks Hanahope

She was neither.  That was a different season that had two Kellys so one of them became known as Purple Kelly.  Kelley Wentworth's first appearance was on San Juan Del Sur which was the second iteration of Blood vs. Water.  She appeared with her father and she was simply known as "Kelley".  Her second appearance was on Cambodia which was the Second Chances returning players season.  Kelly Wigglesworth was also on that season so the two women became known by their last names.  And I guess Jeff thinks she is the second coming so now pretty much exclusively calls her by her last name, like his tongue bath objects Culpepper, Skupin, Varner, etc.

There was a season where there were two Johns (John Rocker and Jon Misch) and Jon Misch was always "Jon" whereas I think John Rocker was always "John Rocker".  There was a season where there were two Sierras (Sierra Dawn Thomas and Ciera Easton) and they didn't get lastnamed.  I guess the two Kellys both had last names starting with W so maybe last name was easier?  But doesn't make as much sense in this current season.

[Bryce Lynch]

18 minutes ago, blackwing said:

She was neither.  That was a different season that had two Kellys so one of them became known as Purple Kelly.  Kelley Wentworth's first appearance was on San Juan Del Sur which was the second iteration of Blood vs. Water.  She appeared with her father and she was simply known as "Kelley".  Her second appearance was on Cambodia which was the Second Chances returning players season.  Kelly Wigglesworth was also on that season so the two women became known by their last names.  And I guess Jeff thinks she is the second coming so now pretty much exclusively calls her by her last name, like his tongue bath objects Culpepper, Skupin, Varner, etc.

There was a season where there were two Johns (John Rocker and Jon Misch) and Jon Misch was always "Jon" whereas I think John Rocker was always "John Rocker".  There was a season where there were two Sierras (Sierra Dawn Thomas and Ciera Easton) and they didn't get lastnamed.  I guess the two Kellys both had last names starting with W so maybe last name was easier?  But doesn't make as much sense in this current season.

I give Probst a pass on calling her "Wentworth".  She was called that by necessity on her 2nd season because of Wigglesworth.  After calling her that for a whole season, including her "Wentworth, will not count X9", the name has stuck.   

[Bryce Lynch]

1 hour ago, Wandering Snark said:

Okay, this has been bugging me... was 'Wentworth' also 'Purple Kelly' or was that the 'other' Kelly in that season?

---

RetroEdit: Thanks Hanahope

Kelly "The Quitter" Shinn was Purple Kelly.  Kelly Bruno, the one with the "fake leg" as Na'onka (The Other Quitter) Mixon, so elegantly put it, was the other Kelly.   

[jumper sage]

On 2/26/2019 at 5:11 PM, Nashville said:

So can Reem, it would appear. 😉

I almost wonder if they pay attention to the show at all.  Getting a long with people is rule #1.

I never saw what the advantage was.  The guy found it when they were emptying the boat.

[Lamb18]

11 hours ago, jumper sage said:

I almost wonder if they pay attention to the show at all.  Getting a long with people is rule #1.

I never saw what the advantage was.  The guy found it when they were emptying the boat.

It was an advantage menu. One choice was an extra vote, another was immunity, but I forgot what the third choice was. It could not be used past the third tribal council.

[ProfCrash]

15 minutes ago, Lamb18 said:

It was an advantage menu. One choice was an extra vote, another was immunity, but I forgot what the third choice was. It could not be used past the third tribal council.

Third was to steal a reward from the other tribe.

[azshadowwalker]

Just got a chance to watch this episode, because I keep forgetting about the show. (Tells you something, I guess.) 

Anyway, after seeing how these assholes on Manu behaved, nothing made me happier than them not knowing Reem was going to get a chance to come back. I intensely dislike that group of people.