Leaving Neverland

[Irlandesa]

1 hour ago, Drogo said:

You know what I find annoying.. that we don't hear the interviewer's questions or tone/approach. 

Yeah.  That was one of the criticisms I read.  Only once in a while do you hear him asking clarifying questions.

[Simon Boccanegra]

Today I was talking to someone I know who was part of a suit against the Catholic church. He said everything about Safechuck and Robson rings true for him, and he can't imagine how hard it has been for them. He said as difficult as it was for him not to be believed, and to have people taking the side of his abuser, no priest has a worldwide cult of fans to go on the attack (unless, theoretically, someone was accusing a pope). No priest is described as a once-in-a-lifetime talent. No priest's voice is inescapable decades later on the airwaves and in public places. No priest danced on a television special that millions saw when they were children. Etc.  

Second point; Maureen Orth's "10 undeniable facts" piece for Vanity Fair has been updated with a correction re: which fathers have committed suicide. I regret passing on bad info last night, and of course am glad that the elder Mr. Safechuck has not died.  

Edited March 5, 2019 by Simon Boccanegra

[kathe5133]

I'm a half hour in so they've not even touched on the abuse.  I've said "what?"  so many times that's my cat left the room in fear.  What in the name of God I see wrong with these parents?  "Michael has no friends". WHAT?  "I washed Micheal's clothes, he was like another son to me"  WHAT?  I could go on, but you've got the drift.

The parents are as much at fault, maybe even more at fault than Micheal.  This is your son.  This is you under 10 year old son "playing" with a grown assed man.  Grooming shmooming.  This grown ass man who's had so much plastic surgery his nose is starting to fall off, wants to "play" with your son and YOU LET HIM!!!??  What?

There are those that ask if the boys are making it up for the money.  I don't know as I haven't watched that far, but aren't the lovely mommies enjoying their camera time?  

Wierdos!  Wierdos every one.  (and I mean the parents, not the boys). Those poor boys never had a chance!

[Scarlett45]

3 minutes ago, kathe5133 said:

What in the name of God I see wrong with these parents?  "Michael has no friends".

I could understand Michael having no friends. But if he wasn’t trying to groom the kids he would try to hang out with other adults!!!!!! If he was interested in the well being of children, why did this man never open up a camp or throw money into a performing arts school or something where children could hang out with each other??? Given his celebrity and money he could’ve helped hundreds if not thousands of kids who wanted to perform.

Why was he trying to keep all the kids to himself? Ummmhmmmm

Has anyone seen the movie “I Think I Love My Wife”?(Chris Rock and Kerry Washington are in it) MJ is a topic they make light of but keep it real (basically he was creepy). 

[ruby24]

38 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

That’s possible, but MJ may have been attracted to boys that were “attractive” by social standards. The boys all grew up to be attractive men- could just be that they came from attractive people (good genes and all). 

I am not a psychiatrist (I’m a lawyer), but I don’t think most people who abuse children are actually pedophiles (meaning a primary or exclusive sexual attraction to prepubescent children)- the numbers don’t make sense. I think most of these abusers are just sadistic people who like power and control and will go after an easy target (like the people who abuse mentally disabled adults- they do it because it’s easy to get away with it, not because they have no other sexual options). However I think Michael was actually a pedophile, which he is why he was so invested in his illusions. He had every resource to get himself help and keep himself away from children

Definitely. He seemed to have absolutely ZERO romantic interest in adult men or women. I mean seriously, did he ever even attempt an adult relationship with anyone, ever? Or did he just go straight into molesting kids at some point in his twenties? Lisa Marie Presley is the only woman who ever claimed to be intimate with him, but that was so obviously engineered on his part to distract people in the wake of the first allegation that it clearly meant nothing on his end (and by that point he'd been molesting kids for at least a decade).

I think that's a little more unusual, because a lot of pedophiles hide in long-lasting marriages or don't necessarily start abusing kids as young as Michael was when he started. I'm thinking he must have been in his early, maybe mid-twenties when he started, based on how far back you start to find pictures of him with these constant young male companions (of a certain age). 

Edited March 5, 2019 by ruby24

[Scarlett45]

1 minute ago, ruby24 said:

Definitely. He seemed to have absolutely ZERO romantic interest in adult men or women. I mean seriously, did he ever even attempt an adult relationship with anyone, ever? Or did he just go straight into molesting kids at some point in his twenties? Lisa Marie Presley is the only woman who ever claimed to be intimate with him, but that was so obviously engineered on his part to distract people in the wake of the first allegation that it clearly meant nothing on his end (and by that point he'd been molesting kids for at least a decade).

I think that's a little more unusual, because a lot of pedophiles hide in long-lasting marriages or don't necessarily start abusing kids as young as Michael was when he started. 

I don’t think Michael had any interest in adult sexuality or relationships at all. Or even adult friendships. He was always with small children or parental figures (like Elizabeth Taylor)- no peer relationships. I don’t think an adult relationship would’ve stopped his abusive tendencies though, he didn’t hurt kids due to his lack of partnered sex with adults. He probably started abusing kids when his celebrity got to a point where he had opportunities. 

What is wrong with Wade’s mother? Why is she laughing?!!(I’m on part 1)

[chuckity]

Just a thought ... isn't MJ's son Prince the one who had his hair dyed that horrible shade of blonde as a kid?

That blonde actually resembles the color the Wade Robson's hair was at a similar age.

Could MJ have created his own kids as permanent stand ins for the ones he originally molested?

I'm sick.

[Swartz]

So MJ married Lisa Marie to put on this charade that he liked women.  What was Lisa's motivation in marrying him?  I remember one interview with her when she claimed they were intimate and really in love.    I guess she did it for PR but I'll never understand it 

[formerlyfreedom]

Shane Robson speaks truth.

[Growsonwalls]

A few thoughts: Wade seems MUCH more damaged than James, even though their experiences were very similar, and I have to think that part of it is that James' mom did come to her senses. Too late of course, but she did become completely disillusioned with Michael by the time he died. When she said she danced with happiness upon hearing about his death. So it sounds like she had more of a head on her shoulders.

Wade's family, however, seemed completely invested in Michael. His mom saying that she slept WITH MICHAEL'S COAT ON for a week just creeps me out beyond words. Even today the relationship between Wade and his family seems so strained and it's tragic. My heart hurts for him, for his beautiful wife, for his sister, for his brother, for his child, even for his mother, as stupid as she was/is.

[ruby24]

18 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

5 minutes ago, SnK said:

So MJ married Lisa Marie to put on this charade that he liked women.  What was Lisa's motivation in marrying him?  I remember one interview with her when she claimed they were intimate and really in love.    I guess she did it for PR but I'll never understand it 

I think she may have some issues of her own in being starstruck by his image in her own way, seeing something of the kind of superstar her dad was. Also, her most recent husband was arrested for child pornography too, so it may be an unfortunate pattern with her (and wasn't Elvis himself accused of dating underage girls? They say we're often drawn to our parents- I kinda think that was a lifelong issue she had)

Edited March 5, 2019 by ruby24

[Guest]

41 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

2 hours ago, Drogo said:

You know what I find annoying.. that we don't hear the interviewer's questions or tone/approach. 

Yeah.  That was one of the criticisms I read.  Only once in a while do you hear him asking clarifying questions.

It might be a criticism (and it may have validity) but unless Dan Reed was asking them, "So, can you make another more outrageous claim against Michael Jackson, please?" I'm not particularly interested on how he conducted the interviews or what questions he asked. I'm interested in the substance that's on the screen. I've seen many documentaries where the director's questions to the subjects aren't shown. It's not always needed.

[BitterApple]

1 hour ago, Drogo said:

No one would say this precise disgusting shit happened if it didn't happen.  Both of these guys look like they were hit by a steam engine. 

I agree. My husband hasn't seen the documentary yet, but he was a huge Michael Jackson fan growing up. He's always been on the fence as to whether the accusations were true or not, but after watching last night, I 100% believe it. Unless these two men are the most convincing sociopaths on the planet, there's no way they're lying. 

1 hour ago, Growsonwalls said:

Something I noticed: the moms of all the boys to this day are extremely attractive women. They were even more so when MJ was with their sons. But I'm wondering if many of them were wannabe starlets who not only wanted their sons to be in the business, but wanted to be actresses themselves. 

It wouldn't surprise me. Many stage mothers live out unfulfilled dreams through their children. Similar to how wannabe-jocks push their sons in sports. I did notice that both boys grew up to be very handsome men. I thought they could pass for brothers.

[Scarlett45]

9 minutes ago, SnK said:

So MJ married Lisa Marie to put on this charade that he liked women.  What was Lisa's motivation in marrying him?  I remember one interview with her when she claimed they were intimate and really in love.    I guess she did it for PR but I'll never understand it 

Well Lisa was young and a lonely person who was the child of a huge celebrity. Also before Michael started fucking up his face he was kind of attractive. He WAS probably fun and light hearted, and unlike a lot of guys he wasn’t after her money. I could see her falling under a spell for a little bit. (Not knowing who he was) Who ended that relationship?

 

3 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

I think she may have some issues of her own in being starstruck by his image in her own way, seeing something of the kind of superstar her dad was. Also, her most recent husband was arrested for child pornography too, so it may be an unfortunate pattern with her (and wasn't Elvis himself accused of dating underage girls?)

Oh my that’s awful! Poor woman. Yes, Elvis was very much an R. Kelly type (liking girls in mid adolescence). He didn’t want women to get old, fat, and once they were mothers he was not attracted to them any more. ISSUES.......

[Growsonwalls]

12 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Oh my that’s awful! Poor woman. Yes, Elvis was very much an R. Kelly type (liking girls in mid adolescence). He didn’t want women to get old, fat, and once they were mothers he was not attracted to them any more. ISSUES.......

BUT I also think that Lisa Marie might have been easily "groomed" to believe that Michael might have had some "issues" but was innocent because AFAIK Elvis liked girls ... young. However, the girls were pretty consistent that at least towards the end of his life he was actually impotent and the "parties" were more him eating ice cream in pajamas and popping pills. MJ had substance abuse issues as well. So i think Lisa Marie was the perfect person to believe that MJ could have had some weird tendencies but didn't/wouldn't cross that sexual line. 

[Scarlett45]

1 minute ago, Growsonwalls said:

BUT I also think that Lisa Marie might have been easily "groomed" to believe that Michael might have had some "issues" but was innocent because AFAIK Elvis liked girls ... young. However, the girls were pretty consistent that at least towards the end of his life he was actually impotent and the "parties" were more him eating ice cream in pajamas and popping pills. MJ had substance abuse issues as well. So i think Lisa Marie was the perfect person to believe that MJ could have had some weird tendencies but didn't/wouldn't cross that sexual line. 

Yup I agree. 

[Irlandesa]

29 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

A few thoughts: Wade seems MUCH more damaged than James, even though their experiences were very similar, and I have to think that part of it is that James' mom did come to her senses. Too late of course, but she did become completely disillusioned with Michael by the time he died. When she said she danced with happiness upon hearing about his death. So it sounds like she had more of a head on her shoulders.

Wade's family, however, seemed completely invested in Michael. His mom saying that she slept WITH MICHAEL'S COAT ON for a week just creeps me out beyond words. Even today the relationship between Wade and his family seems so strained and it's tragic. My heart hurts for him, for his beautiful wife, for his sister, for his brother, for his child, even for his mother, as stupid as she was/is.

By the time Michael died, James had already confessed to his mom that he had been abused by Michael so it makes sense that her opinion had shifted. Wade was still denying it to his family.

[Simon Boccanegra]

I don't discount the Scientology angle in accounting for what was in it for Lisa Marie Presley, especially given that she hastily dissolved a marriage to a prominent Scientologist in order to marry Jackson. It's possible she is being completely honest when she says she went from childhood fan (she was said to have been seven when she saw her first Jacksons concert) to friend/emotional support to "falling for him." She claimed she was a believer in his innocence during the Jordan Chandler legal episode, and it led to them getting closer.   

But Michael was very high on the Church of Scientology's wish list, and they aggressively (if unsuccessfully) courted him during the short marriage. LMP herself, who had originally been brought into the fold by her mother, eventually defected in 2016. There were reports she had been disillusioned for years, though.  

Something interesting from the WaPo archives:  

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/1994/08/04/harmonic-conversion-ex-scientologists-speculate-on-why-michael-and-lisa-wed/bcabcdcf-1866-456d-b7dd-758f3268bc2d/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.476f34735c5e

Edited March 5, 2019 by Simon Boccanegra

[biakbiak]

2 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

By the time Michael died, James had already confessed to his mom that he had been abused by Michael so it makes sense that her opinion had shifted. Wade was still denying it to his family.

Also, for a variety of reasons Wade has gotten more of the vitriol and attacks of the MJ stans which I imagine has contributed to his processing the situation.

[Growsonwalls]

9 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

By the time Michael died, James had already confessed to his mom that he had been abused by Michael so it makes sense that her opinion had shifted. Wade was still denying it to his family.

Hmm I also get the feeling James' mom was more mercenary in her views on Michael, which ironically made James stronger inside. She seemed to know even in the 90's that him buying her a house was him paying her off. So as morally repulsive as it is, James' mom seemed like she was using Michael and therefore she could more easily believe that MJ was abusing her son. She probably knew underneath all along. 

But Wade's mom to this day seems so far gone in her love/worship for him that she can barely articulate her feelings. She didn't get close to MJ for the fame, or the money, or the houses, she seemed bound to MJ by love. I hope that family can heal but honestly, I'm not hopeful.

This is a weird analogy but it's sort of like the Manson girls. To this day Squeaky and Sandy worship him, while ironically the people who murdered for him (Leslie, Patricia, and the late Susan Atkins) became completely disillusioned with him, because they were more like him. They had something savage within them that made them murder, so of course once they were separated from him their heads cleared. But Squeaky and Sandy were both girls from very damaged families and by all accounts were the sweet, kind, nurturing Family members. So to this day they can't process the fact that the man they worshipped so was a monster.

Edited March 5, 2019 by Growsonwalls

[SimonSeymour]

11 hours ago, Lady Iris said:

Had he lived and these victims came forth with a change in their stories, would it have been enough to press charges again?

I don’t know what the statute of limitations is in California, but in my state, it’s 20 years STARTING from the time the child turns 18. 

[formerlyfreedom]

"Forgiveness is not a line you cross, it's a road you take."

Wow. Listening to Robson and Safechuck talk with Oprah is amazing. If you didn't watch it, it's worth viewing. I am blown away by these two men.

[Growsonwalls]

I actually had to turn the Oprah interview off. Simply because after watching these men for four hours relive their pain I couldn't watch them talk about it again. I do think it's amazing how ahead of the curve Oprah was in addressing issues like sexual abuse on her show. The things she was saying 25, 30 years ago are things people in 2019 still have a hard time processing.

[Guest]

The editing on the Oprah interview was terrible. She asked the boys if they would have come forward had Jackson still been alive. Instead of getting their answers—which I would have loved to have heard—it was just Dan Reed answering. 

[ellenr33]

I could barely get through part 2. These poor guys! I don’t care if he “didn’t get to be a kid himself” that doesn’t mean it’s okay for him to molest these kids. He groomed these kids and had plenty of money to do it. I’m glad these guys decided to do this so hopefully the public can quit idolizing this monster. 

[SimonSeymour]

I didn’t realize just how much I miss Oprah. 

[Quilt Fairy]

10 hours ago, BitterApple said:

qtpye, I agree wholeheartedly about the mothers. I don't think they consciously traded their sons for money and fame, but they absolutely overlooked a lot of behavior that would've never been tolerated in real life. Imagine if it was these kids' soccer coaches or math teachers who wanted to have sleepovers and hold hands and play Nintendo in their childrens' bedrooms. They would've reported it in a heartbeat. 

Looking back at all the footage, it's really amazing how Michael's starpower eclipsed the red flags. This guy was the biggest icon on the planet and instead of having girlfriends he was always in the company of pre-pubescent boys? Just the optics of that alone should've had the world going, wtf?

Catholic priests got away with it for decades.  (And some probably still are, somewhere.)

This documentary should be called The Tale of Two Clueless Mothers.

[biakbiak]

Why can’t people either not say anything or leave it simply at this was not my experience and than shut it.

https://www.thewrap.com/corey-feldman-defends-michael-jackson-says-leaving-neverland-is-1-sided/

37 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

This documentary should be called The Tale of Two Clueless Mothers.

I am not saying they were great but such a title would put more of the blame on them than the actual sexual predator.

[Simon Boccanegra]

RIGHT UP 2 THE SEX PART! THAT IS WHERE IT BECOMES LALA LAND, INSTEAD OF NEVERLAND

"No, Corey. You be trippin'."  

What's with the all-caps, by the way? I hope he doesn't do that in all of his tweets. 

I agree with biakbiak. I'm willing to take Feldman at his word that Jackson never molested him, but it's quite possible Jackson behaved differently with celebrity kids versus unknowns. Maybe his friendships with the famous children acted as a kind of lure. "It's fine for us to let our children spend unsupervised time with Michael, because he just loves children. We've seen all those photos of him with Webster and the Home Alone boy." Just like Harvey Weinstein showed one face to Meryl Streep and another to an aspiring young actress. 

[wendyg]

I would not discount the Scientology theory.

Slate has an interesting piece on the reaction of Seth Stevenson, who covered the Jackson trial at the time and treated it as entertainment, to seeing LEAVING NEVERLAND: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/03/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-2005-trial-changing-mind.html

Edited March 5, 2019 by wendyg

[Robert Lynch]

3 hours ago, Simon Boccanegra said:

"No, Corey. You be trippin'."  

What's with the all-caps, by the way? I hope he doesn't do that in all of his tweets. 

I agree with biakbiak. I'm willing to take Feldman at his word that Jackson never molested him, but it's quite possible Jackson behaved differently with celebrity kids versus unknowns. Maybe his friendships with the famous children acted as a kind of lure. "It's fine for us to let our children spend unsupervised time with Michael, because he just loves children. We've seen all those photos of him with Webster and the Home Alone boy." Just like Harvey Weinstein showed one face to Meryl Streep and another to an aspiring young actress. 

Hey, Feldman, what about the so called Angels you treated back there? Your ex-Angel took you to the curve. Pot calling the kettle black. He has no right to call out on James and Wade because Michael didn't do anything to him.

[Drogo]

14 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

All women were meant to be married and the king’s mistress was a guaranteed better life even after he was done with you (making a good marriage for you as a thank you) never mind being the mother to a Royal bastard and the perks of that. I don’t think you’re suggesting people pimping their minor children out is the same @Drogo; people making the best out of a bad situation when they had no social or legal recourse is different than the pure greed of selling your child. 

That's actually what I was trying (and failing) to say... that the way these Neverland mothers felt like they were in competition for their children to be The Chosen One was similar to how parents in the olden days would compete to get their most beautiful daughter to court to become the King's mistress for all the reasons you've stated.  Some of their families may have gone hungry without a leg up on the King (pun intended.) 

It's more disgusting here for so many reasons: the ages of the children, mostly... and these tiny boys' mothers sought MJ out and hard.  "I went to give him a thank you note among thousands of screaming fans", "we were going to be in the U.S. and Michael had said I should look him up so I called 10,000 places to find him", etc.  Neither the Safechucks nor the Robsons would've starved without becoming MJ beneficiaries. 

Neither mother seems particularly bright, and both were attention-hungry, and he preyed on that.  These mothers would've had the good sense to not leave a brand new car unlocked in a desolate parking lot all night, but not the sense to keep their beloved children from spending weeks at a time with a self-proclaimed lonely man with no friends. 

 

6 hours ago, biakbiak said:

https://www.thewrap.com/corey-feldman-defends-michael-jackson-says-leaving-neverland-is-1-sided/

Let's get Michael's side on this:

[hoodooznoodooz]

18 hours ago, cpcathy said:

I'm curious as to what part two will give us.

I believe the two men 100%. The entire ordeal is terribly sad, but it seems it had to be said to start a larger conversation.

And, as usual, I'm so grateful I don't have children. It seems they are either abused or they become the abuser.

Do we know if someone molested MJ when he was Robson’s age? 

[kelslamu]

Ok that was an intense couple of hours.  I remember him coming on tv and making his denial.  I also remember being a young mom at the time and wondering how the hell anyone would let their kid spend the night with a grown man.  I kept wondering if Michael seriously thought he wasn't doing any actual harm to these kids.  Then again, I think he had to know.  Allegations aside, the dude always came off as weird as hell to me.  You know helping kids is one thing, but the whole sleep in my bed stuff is just freakin out there.  If the two were making it up, then I thought they pulled off a hell of an acting job.    Did anyone think it totally weird AF that he would go spend the night at the one kid's house and play with him in the bedroom all the time?  I know he missed out on childhood, but damn.   Again, these parents were so sucked into it all I don't think they wanted to know.  The one mom saying she's so upset that her son feels no emotion towards her needs smacked a bit.  She didn't want the details as that would give her nightmares.  WTH?  What about his nightmares?   Side note:  watching people online curse at anyone who says something negative about a celebrity is the stupidest thing I've witnessed.   

Whether or not these two are truthful, I can see a kid denying everything and then not understanding what the hell's bothering them as they get older.  I just don't know and never will.  I still thought their stories were compelling though.     Thanks for letting me rant right after finishing watching. :)  

Where were all of his family members when he was so lonely all the time?  If they weren't around, I'm assuming from show, how the heck do they know what he did or did not do?

[msrachelj]

19 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

Something I noticed: the moms of all the boys to this day are extremely attractive women. They were even more so when MJ was with their sons. But I'm wondering if many of them were wannabe starlets who not only wanted their sons to be in the business, but wanted to be actresses themselves. 

clown hair is not attractive at all. karma that her son has no use for her though.

 

18 hours ago, ruby24 said:

Definitely. He seemed to have absolutely ZERO romantic interest in adult men or women. I mean seriously, did he ever even attempt an adult relationship with anyone, ever? Or did he just go straight into molesting kids at some point in his twenties? Lisa Marie Presley is the only woman who ever claimed to be intimate with him, but that was so obviously engineered on his part to distract people in the wake of the first allegation that it clearly meant nothing on his end (and by that point he'd been molesting kids for at least a decade).

I think that's a little more unusual, because a lot of pedophiles hide in long-lasting marriages or don't necessarily start abusing kids as young as Michael was when he started. I'm thinking he must have been in his early, maybe mid-twenties when he started, based on how far back you start to find pictures of him with these constant young male companions (of a certain age). 

lisa marie presley is a scientologist weirdo herself.  wonder how she feels about this doc. does anyone know if she has commented?

[druzy]

17 hours ago, maggiegil said:

This was suggested to me on youtube probably as I watched the trailer on there. I don't understand the cognitive dissonance of acknowledging that he had inappropriate relationships with boys, sleeping, showering with them etc. but refusing point blank to entertain the idea that he could have molested them. It really shows the power of celebrity.

Any other man who did what he admitted he did with young boys just even sleeping in the same bed as them would in no way get any kind of benefit of the doubt. If you watch the Bashir documentary, hes grooming his victim and I believe it happened to the men in the doc too.

How come the victims motivation can be called into question but the familys motivation to protect their cash cow isn't being questioned.

Wendy Williams vehemently defended R. Kelly until her sponsors threatened to pull their ads. Pay her no mind.

[msrachelj]

10 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

I actually had to turn the Oprah interview off. Simply because after watching these men for four hours relive their pain I couldn't watch them talk about it again. I do think it's amazing how ahead of the curve Oprah was in addressing issues like sexual abuse on her show. The things she was saying 25, 30 years ago are things people in 2019 still have a hard time processing.

oprah interview was riveting. i wish oprah still had her talk show and could discuss current, interesting and educational issues instead of the shit own channel which is totally crap. totally disappointed she dropped the show for crap programing. 

[Straycat80]

This documentary blew me away. Those poor boys. I was never a fan of Michael Jackson. I thought he was talented but weird. I was horrified after watching the Martin Bashir documentary, how could these mothers think it was ok to let their sons sleep in the same bed as a grown man? I think they were drew in by the fame and money. Especially The Australian mom. This was the 80’s, were people still that naive back then? 

I don’t buy the child-like, I had no childhood act. And I believe it was an act. I remember after the Martin Bashir doc someone who knew MJ well said how smart he was, he knew exactly what he was doing in his career and finances, so I believe he orchestrated the abuse and buying of these boys and their families.

RE: Lisa Marie Presley, I remember seeing an interview on TV (maybe on Oprah) after their divorce. She said she married MJ because she thought she could ‘save him’. From what I don’t remember, maybe because he reminded her of her Dad? They got divorced because he wanted kids and she wasn’t ready and he told her Debbie Rowe was all ready to go with the plan to give him the children he wanted. She was asked if MJ was ever alone with her two kids and she very quickly replied ‘NO’! Wonder what else she knew that she never admitted. 

[kelslamu]

On 3/3/2019 at 10:17 PM, Giant Misfit said:

I don't know if anyone else watched Abducted in Plain Sight on Netflix, so I'm going to put this comment in tags:

  Hide contents

Michael's behavior reminded me exactly of B's behavior with Jan and, more specifically, her parents as he groomed all of them. Michael groomed both Wade and Jimmy's mothers, got them under his thrall and truly had them believing he was just some benign man-child. The same shit happened with B and Jan's parents—he knew exactly how he could manipulate them so he could continue raping Jan. 

Sickening. That's really just the word that went through my mind through those two painful hours of TV. Sickening. Michael Jackson was an evil human being. He ruined Wade's family and never gave a shit once the new boys came along—in this case, Macauley Culkin and Brett Barnes (who can continue to issue their denials but I'll never not believe they wasn't treated the same way as Gavin, Jordan, Jimmy, and Wade). Jackson was a serial pedophile who had us all groomed back in the 80s and early 90s with his "I never had a childhood" spiel and his constant stream of "he's just eccentric" PR stunts (Elephant Man bones/hyperbaric chamber nonsense). He laid that groundwork specifically so that anyone automatically just poo-poo'd his "love of children" as him just being a lovable icon with a "terrible childhood" who was just having the "childhood he never had" as an adult. I know I fell for it. Until Jordan Chandler came forward and that was the end of any misgivings I ever had about him. 

Fuck him. I hope he's rotting in hell.

I kept thinking of Abducted movie as well.  

[Lady Iris]

I watched the movie Spotlight this weekend, it was the movie that won an academy award a few years back about the Boston Globe investigative team that busted open the child abuse within the Catholic Church. Now there's been this MJ documentary and follow up. R. Kelly's in the news as of late. Hell even Robert Kraft of the New England Patriots has been all over my region's news because of his sex scandal.

Its all too much. The Church abuse is a whole other monstrous ball of fuckery that I wont touch here. My stomach is churning and there's no escaping this ugliness. I need to watch Great British Baking Show or something cleansing.

[Drogo]

Can't understand that WW video.  It's hard to follow people who make no fucking sense and only want to believe words coming out of their own mouths.

Also, fuck that entertainment journalist for coming out sympathetic on the side of the accusers and flipping his script when Wendy nope's him.  Suddenly he's torn, right.  Nodding and agreeing with every excuse flying out of her mouth.

[maggiegil]

Just watched part 2 and the Oprah special. It was a good documentary and I think for a viewer familiar with patterns of child sexual abuse it was clear from the documentary that what he did was a masterclass in grooming.

The Oprah special really hammered it home and spelled out for people unfamiliar with grooming what it looks like and how insidious it was in this case.

I thought Wade Robson saying that before they met MJ his parents knew the story that MJ hadn't had a childhood and thats why he liked to be around kids to get to experience childhood through their eyes, blah, blah. Its true he was grooming before he met them with this narrative. Everyone worldwide knew that story in order to normalize this weird behavior, it was gaslighting on a global scale.

There are plenty of people who don't get childhoods, I have never heard anyone, (even wealthy people) who as adults have relationships where they sleep in bed with unrelated young children . None of the Jackson kids had a traditional childhood yet we never heard of the others having these kind of relationships because its not normal.

I hope Oprah does more of these kind of specials, she has a level of trust and gravitas that I don't think any other presenter has.

[kelslamu]

I recall hearing that when the Jackson 5 were touring that their dad would sometimes bring a woman into the hotel room and have sex with her while the boys slept or pretended to sleep.  Anyone else recall hearing that over the years?  I don't know if it was a talk show a long time ago or what.  

[maggiegil]

3 minutes ago, kelslamu said:

I recall hearing that when the Jackson 5 were touring that their dad would sometimes bring a woman into the hotel room and have sex with her while the boys slept or pretended to sleep.  Anyone else recall hearing that over the years?  I don't know if it was a talk show a long time ago or what.  

Don't know if Joe did it in the same room (wouldn't surprise me if he did too) but Jermaine and Jackie definitely did

"One girl, who had sexual relations with Jermaine, recalled such an experience:

"I jumped into bed with him and he climbed on top of me. As he climaxed, he shuddered so loudly I was afraid he would wake up Michael and Marlon, who were sleeping three feet away in the next bed. Or at least I thought they were sleeping. As I was slipping out of the room, I heard Michael say to Jermaine, 'Nice job. Now, can we please get some sleep?'"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_relationships_of_Michael_Jackson

[kelslamu]

23 hours ago, Blakeston said:

I'm not sure how musicians having gay experiences with other adults relates to Michael Jackson. But I would definitely agree that Joe's upbringing is what caused MJ to turn out the way he did. Joe denied his son a childhood, and that stopped him from ever mentally maturing beyond childhood.

At the end of the day, even if Michael was so warped that he truly believed that his sexual relationships with these boys were healthy and normal, he's still a vicious person for casually disposing of the boys the way that he did once they reached a certain age. The love and kindness and caring was all an act.

I absolutely agree with you about the caring being an act.  He treated them like a flavor of the month or year or whatever.  He sure got back in touch quickly when it was trial time though.

He stole their childhoods just as his was stolen from him.  

I wonder if Culkin was a ploy.  Maybe he did not abuse him because he knew having a famous kid deny it would help at some point.  

Edited March 5, 2019 by kelslamu

[Irlandesa]

7 hours ago, biakbiak said:

I am not saying they were great but such a title would put more of the blame on them than the actual sexual predator.

Yep.  It also ignores the fathers in the situations. 

[funky-rat]

My multi-quote isn't working.  🤔

re: religions hating women/where did Michael learn to groom? - Michael was raised Jehovah's Witness (an extremely Patriarchal denomination), who are now coming under fire for extensive molestation issues.  They refuse to believe the abused unless there were witnesses who will corroborate their story.  Yeah.  Michael himself talked about how when he was in the Jackson 5, he would be sharing a hotel bed with one of his brothers, who would be getting it on with a groupie.  He said he wrote Billie Jean because of the constant barrage of groupies who would show up with a baby, claiming one of his brothers to be the father.

re: Michael intimate with women - Michael claimed that Tatum O'Neal tried to "seduce" him but he was "terrified".  That really irritated her and she fought back against his comments.  I swore I remembered reading an article where he talked about swiping his V-Card with a famous actress, but I can't find it.  I don't believe he was ever intimate with the mother of his two oldest kids.  I believe that was just some weird arrangement.

re: Lisa Marie - she was a heavy-duty Scientologist (not sure if she still is), and when they really want someone in their stable, they will stop at nothing to get it, and I've always wondered if that was the case.

re: Corey Feldman - I read an interview on the MSN homepage before the doc was released where he said he wasn't molested by Michael, and he'd "like to think" no one else was, but "man, I don't know".  Now he's changing his tune?  Corey claims to have been molested as a child/teen but refuses to say who, and that's fine, but I would have hoped he'd have more sympathy.

[Rickster]

3 hours ago, wendyg said:

I would not discount the Scientology theory.

Slate has an interesting piece on the reaction of Seth Stevenson, who covered the Jackson trial at the time and treated it as entertainment, to seeing LEAVING NEVERLAND: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/03/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-2005-trial-changing-mind.html

Thanks, this is an interesting perspective, especially Robson at the second trial, which puts a different spin on part of the documentary. While on one level I can understand why Robson lied, at the same time I have had trouble understanding why a married 22 year old adult who suffered abuse from this guy, could not support a teenager who had the guts to go to the police. I wish this had been explored in the documentary or by Oprah more.

I also found the information about Robson’s mother delivering him at 1:30 in the morning to Jackson especially chilling.

[lovinbob]

On 3/4/2019 at 9:06 AM, jenrising said:

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to vilify the mothers. They were seduced as well. Manipulated so well that to this day they can't help but remember him fondly in part. That's what abusers do. You can still love someone who hurts you terribly. 

I get this, but as a mother, it is very hard to buy into this completely. All I can say is that at least these stories remind me of what to know to protect my kids. Under no circumstances should my child sleep over with an adult. If a powerful person takes an unusual interest in my kids, there is no innocent reason for it. Too good to be true is just that. There's no such thing as magic.

15 hours ago, sadie said:

i just keep wondering how no one in his circle did anything. Can anyone imagine Bradley Cooper or Ben Affleck hanging out with 7 years old, sleeping in bed with them, asking their parents to leave them? people would show up on their doorstep with pitchforks. 

Lots of people are giving Drake the side eye for his behavior with Millie Bobbie Brown and others. 

12 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

A few thoughts: Wade seems MUCH more damaged than James, even though their experiences were very similar

Interesting. I had the opposite reaction. James seems so fragile to me. I am actively worried about him.

12 hours ago, ruby24 said:

 (and wasn't Elvis himself accused of dating underage girls? 

He met Priscilla when she was 14 and I believe he was a decade older

49 minutes ago, msrachelj said:

lisa marie presley is a scientologist weirdo herself.  wonder how she feels about this doc. does anyone know if she has commented?

She left the cult a while back.

[zenme]

My suspicion is that someone touched MJ sexually as a boy. It’s like many have said, a lot of people have had shitty childhoods and don’t wind up pedophiles. A lot of thoughts are going through my head. Before the fame, the boys all shared small confined sleep spaces...An older and curious boy could try to explore sexually with a sibling. It’s happened. Also, MJ was supposedly a devout Jehovah’s Witness. Have you ever seen those little booklets they hand out? They’re all about molestation. My former brother-in-law grew up JW and he said that those little books that put ideas in an innocent kid’s mind. He said it never even crossed his mind until his mother joined the organization, and he was given the books. He said they would take him into a room and ask/accuse him of touching himself or masturbating. Obviously, this is not to say this JW religion is filled with pedophiles, but I can’t help but think this focus on the masturbation and pedophilia has to affect someone sometime. Especially someone who is physically and mentally abused  already. (I write this as a person who grew up catholic and did not allow my son to be an altar boy. There are some sick predators out there.)

My heart goes out to those boys—now men. That had to have been a major mindfuck to them. Confusing. And I’m sorry, but shame on their parents! I have a hard time believing they could be that naive.