Leaving Neverland

[sistermagpie]

15 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Not one person from his "estate" disputes that fact.  He's slept with hundreds of little boys since he moved out of his mother's house.

I heard a clip where Joy Robson was explaining how they just "played and played" and then "fell asleep" as if she was trying to suggest he wasn't sleeping with them by accident. When we know that he very specifically wanted a boy in his bed alone every night. He himself even had his own claims about how it was an expression of love. But it seems like even JR had to make up a different story to really defend it by acting like it was just something that happened once in a while by accident, with everyone collapsing where they were sitting. (Not that this would have made any sense or be something a mother should be condoning either. Makes the place sound like a drug den!)

Edited March 20, 2019 by sistermagpie

[Kostgard]

2 hours ago, Robert Lynch said:

Another former MJ bodyguard claims Leaving Neverland left key details

Okay, first the other bodyguard who worked for him just only 2 years claiming he liked women and this other one claiming the documentary left key details? How about.....$$$$$ from the estate to hire these clowns to lie? It makes sense.

And this dude worked for MJ for the last 10 years of his life. After both Wade and James said that the sexual abuse had stopped for them (They both said it stopped at age 14, which would be around 1992 for James, around 96 or 97 for Wade). So, yeah - his testimony totally changes everything!

[DangerousMinds]

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

It really comes down to one thing.

What adult man sleeps with little boys every single night?

Not one person from his "estate" disputes that fact.  He's slept with hundreds of little boys since he moved out of his mother's house.

It's ridiculous and frankly scary that so many of his "fans" are twisting themselves into knots to defend him.  I get the "family" doing that, they are still sucking on MJ's money, included in the will or not, there is money to be made there, simply by using the *unblemished* name.

As for Paris?  It's very sad, but she's been trying to commit suicide and to become famous for years.  If "the family" really cares about WHY she's doing that, then help her.  Don't blame it on a documentary that just came out.  That girl has had problems from the beginning, perhaps start with her mother selling her (or at the very least, abandoning her to the tender mercies of MJ) and her biological father spouting off about being her sperm donor, but as far as he's said, never even contacting her.  Think about being raised with disguises or blankets over her head, or huge screaming crowds (thanks MJ and fans, I'm sure that was just wonderful for a tiny child.)

No, I don't believe anyone hands over 20 million dollars if they are innocent, and there is a preponderance of evidence that MJ probably handed over even more hush money to other boys' families.  He also bought many parents expensive and extravagant gifts WHILE their child was 'sleeping' with MJ.  Cars, houses, jewelry, trips all over the world, and cash.

Come on now. 

Who is her biological father? Debbie Rowe basically serves as a surrogate, then gave her up for adoption. That in itself is not so terrible, IMo.

[Umbelina]

11 minutes ago, DangerousMinds said:

Who is her biological father? Debbie Rowe basically serves as a surrogate, then gave her up for adoption. That in itself is not so terrible, IMo.

Edited March 20, 2019 by Umbelina
There is another video somewhere where he says he was the donor.

[Simon Boccanegra]

Think piece from The Atlantic.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/03/listening-michael-jackson-after-leaving-neverland/585295/

In an incidental way, that answers a question I raised last week. The Chris Rock stand-up special that is quoted aired on HBO. Obviously, no one on the Jackson side was raising HBO's 1992 no-disparagement agreement then.   

On 3/19/2019 at 12:39 PM, Atlanta said:

Agree with you about Woody and Polanski. Woody plays the same person (himself) in all of his films. Never understood why he was considered a film genius.

I have to provide the other side on this one. I grew up on his films in their best period. When I started to take movies seriously as "art," things to think about and appreciate as writing, direction, and acting (beyond the earlier phase of "I want to see that Disney movie/Superman sequel/etc."), I was always eager to see his annual movie as soon as I could. They're more varied in subject matter than they're sometimes credited for now. He doesn't even appear in some of his very good to great ones, such as The Purple Rose of Cairo, Radio Days (he does narrate), Another Woman, Bullets over Broadway, Sweet and Lowdown, etc.   

I never thought he was a great actor, and I agree with a critic who wrote that it always looked as though the director/auteur were showing the real actor how he wanted something done. But Annie Hall, Zelig, Hannah and Her Sisters, Crimes and Misdemeanors, Husbands and Wives, etc., were strong enough to survive that, and he certainly directed a lot of great performances. So many actors I love really were never better than they were for him. Who could ever forget Martin Landau in Crimes and Misdemeanors, Gena Rowlands in Another Woman, Judy Davis in Husbands and Wives...or Mia Farrow in Purple Rose of Cairo? (Poor Cecilia! That last scene kills me. The life that awaits her when she has to leave the theater is so grim, but just for a couple hours, she has Ginger and Fred in Top Hat. )  

So I will always value his contributions as a filmmaker. I have my opinions on the personal matters, but I stopped going to see his movies automatically for another reason. A few years into the new millennium, it became apparent he was past his prime and working compulsively, not from inspiration. He had a routine, and the movies became routine. 

Edited March 21, 2019 by Simon Boccanegra
Astigmatism!

[Catgyrl]

Possible? Or has this been disproven. I think MJ got lots of sperm donations...

Edited March 20, 2019 by Catgyrl

[biakbiak]

16 minutes ago, Simon Boccanegra said:

in an incidental way, that answers a question I raised last week. The Chris Rock stand-up special that is quoted aired on HBO. Obviously, no one on the Jackson side was raising HBO's 1992 no-disparagement agreement then.   

Wasn’t 1992 the year of the contract? It’s possible it was the reason for it or that because it was already in the can excluded.

[Simon Boccanegra]

Yes, 1992 was the year of the contract, but Chris Rock's Never Scared was from 2004, the time of the Arvizo case.  (“What the hell is wrong with Michael? Another kid? We love Michael so much, we let the first kid slide.”)

Edited March 20, 2019 by Simon Boccanegra

[TigerLynx]

I have to side eye some of these people coming forward now, or coming forward once they were fired or no longer working with Michael Jackson to say they saw things at Neverland and other places with MJ and young boys.  Why couldn't they be bothered to tell the truth years or decades ago?  Was getting a paycheck more important than stopping children from being abused?  I know the answer.  Money and fame seem to trump everything else.  Which is so sad and despicable.

Oddly, this kind of reminds me of all the people who were, "I knew OJ was beating up on Nicole before he was ever charged with her murder.  Nicole and I were great friends."  Where were these people when Nicole was alive?  With friends like this. . . . .

[Melina22]

34 minutes ago, Simon Boccanegra said:

But Annie Hall, Zelig, Hannah and Her Sisters, Crimes and Misdemeanors, Husbands and Wives, etc., were strong enough to survive that, and he certainly directed a lot of great performa

I totally agree. Stardust Memories, Love and Death, Sleeper. There were so many movies that I loved. Then eventually I saw one, possibly Deconstructing Harry, that I found sort of creepy and amoral. I'll still watch his old movies occasionally, but rarely his later ones. 

As for MJ's music, I won't be putting it on on purpose, but if I hear it, I think I'll be able to separate the music from the musician, like I do with other artists I feel sure I'd never want to know IRL. 

[Razzberry]

Another Woody Allen fan here.  I even loved Interiors, and Vicky Christina Barcelona.   I would never defend or deny what he's done, and totally understand being turned off.  This is why I don't even like knowing about an artist's personal life, but I tend to compartmentalize that information.  For all I know, Mia Farrow could be nuts like her sister Prudence who tried to break up Robert Durst's marriage.  

Jackson has never been in my rotation so it's not a problem. 

[Robert Lynch]

If you thought the Zale clip was just equally suspect of MJ's pedo behavior, look at this 1995 clip of Wade at Tower Records  awaiting MJ's History CD with his mother, Joy. A letter with hearts addressed to Michael? Come on, people! 

Edited March 21, 2019 by Robert Lynch

[DuckyinKy]

3 hours ago, Catgyrl said:

Possible? Or has this been disproven. I think MJ got lots of sperm donations...

I have always thought he was their father. Debbie Rowe was Klein's assistant so they knew each other. 

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

I have to side eye some of these people coming forward now, or coming forward once they were fired or no longer working with Michael Jackson to say they saw things at Neverland and other places with MJ and young boys.  Why couldn't they be bothered to tell the truth years or decades ago?  Was getting a paycheck more important than stopping children from being abused?  I know the answer.  Money and fame seem to trump everything else.  Which is so sad and despicable.

Oddly, this kind of reminds me of all the people who were, "I knew OJ was beating up on Nicole before he was ever charged with her murder.  Nicole and I were great friends."  Where were these people when Nicole was alive?  With friends like this. . . . .

Who came forward recently?

[Razzberry]

32 minutes ago, DuckyinKy said:

I think MJ got lots of sperm donations...

🤐

[Robert Lynch]

Fascinating article about superfans of R. Kelly and Michael Jackson

[Catgyrl]

11 hours ago, Razzberry said:

🤐

It just occurred to me what that sounded like... LOL!

[SiobhanJW]

Billboard Interview with Wade, James & Dan

The last part of this interview gave me the chills. 

[Melina22]

That was an amazing article! 

[Robert Lynch]

Read the whole thing. Very informative. I wish the hardcore fans could read what went on, but I am afraid they continue to wear rose-colored tinted glasses still. Keep on the good fight, Wade and James.

Edited March 21, 2019 by Robert Lynch

[sistermagpie]

That's a great article. Just as it seemed, directing really wasn't a thing for either boy. It was just "the prophecy" and they didn't realize he was selling the same dream to everybody. I was really glad to learn WR was dancing again, just starting out playing with it. I could easily see this turning him into a much better choreographer, but just him seeing that the dance was never MJ's was great.

And it was really nice that James found something totally outside of Michael that he loved so he didn't have to go through that. Also it turns out his father died too, before the documentary, so he missed that kind of reckoning and didn't just choose not to do it.

[ruby24]

Really good interview.

[Guest]

I read an article yesterday that Madame Tussaud's has no plans to scrap the Jackson wax figure and it seems that Cirque du Soleil has no plans on scrapping the One show at Mandalay Bay in Las Vegas. So, it seems the general public is still at ease with scuttling Jackson's monstrous behavior in its never-ending quest for entertainment. It's just sad. I mean, in England, do they still revere Jimmy Saville? Do they still play Gary Glitter songs? 

I guess all I should be grateful for at this point is that Jimmy and Wade had their stories told and I hope they can heal and move on and live their best lives. 

[kathe5133]

Love, love, love! that Jackson told them both they would change the world with a film......................

[methodwriter85]

On 3/20/2019 at 10:15 AM, ari333 said:

(snipped)

I wondered why they unmasked the kids. I know it was weird, but it was MJ's wish and it kind of outed the kids .

The really cynical part of me thinks that they unmasked the kids because they knew that one way to keep the MJ cash train flowing was to encourage public fascination with MJ's kids. I remember they started showing up in costume at MJ tributes and such.

God, no wonder Paris is so fucked up. Being a pretty girl from a well-known family is one thing. Being a pretty girl from an extremely messed up famous family that needs you to be a figurehead, having an air of tragedy, trying to forge some kind of mother/daughter relationship with a woman who basically saw you as a commodity, constant speculation about your dead superstar father's predatory behavior, dealing with the cultish fans of said father, and all in the era of social media is just another thing entirely.

Quote

He faked that voice much like Elizabeth Holmes fakes her low voice. It's what sociopaths do it seems. 

Lisa Marie pretty much confirmed that. She said something along of the lines of that he thought he had to sound like that because of his childlike image.

Quote

Definitely not when James peaked in his 20s, but I was shocked that he was briefly an assistant to MJ in the mid 1990s during his marriage to Lisa Marie Presley. I thought his time with MJ was during the Bad era. I know Wade was much longer than James due to the MJ connection and the choreography he did for most of his videos, but always thought it was a neat contrast  to Wade's VS Jame's lives. I never knew James was in a punk band at all. 

Again, I cannot fault James's wife for falling for him. My god, I would've been at his shows every week, too.

[doodlebug]

4 hours ago, Giant Misfit said:

I read an article yesterday that Madame Tussaud's has no plans to scrap the Jackson wax figure and it seems that Cirque du Soleil has no plans on scrapping the One show at Mandalay Bay in Las Vegas. So, it seems the general public is still at ease with scuttling Jackson's monstrous behavior in its never-ending quest for entertainment. It's just sad. I mean, in England, do they still revere Jimmy Saville? Do they still play Gary Glitter songs? 

I guess all I should be grateful for at this point is that Jimmy and Wade had their stories told and I hope they can heal and move on and live their best lives. 

I have a British friend who, while visiting here a couple years back, was absolutely appalled to hear Gary Glitter's 'Rock 'n Roll, Part 2' when we went to a pro baseball game.  She said it would never be played anywhere at anytime in Great Britain after his pedophilia was exposed.  Of course, Gary Glitter didn't have the talent or longevity that MJ had and it is going to be a lot tougher to remove him from the culture.

 

3 hours ago, kathe5133 said:

Love, love, love! that Jackson told them both they would change the world with a film......................

And..... so they have!  I guess MJ saw the future even if many of his fans have been blinded to it.

[RealHousewife]

I didn’t believe Michael was guilty due to a variety of reasons (so much investigation, possibly shady money hungry parents, possibly misunderstood although inappropriate behavior, etc), but sadly I believe he was guilty after watching the documentary. 

My heart goes out to all the kids he hurt. I feel bad I initially didn’t believe Wade. I didn’t understand why he lied as an adult, but I get it now. Poor James seems so fragile. 

I absolutely loved Michael’s music and wanted to believe he was just eccentric and like a big kid. I felt so bad for him due to his abusive childhood and what I once thought were ugly false accusations and being the butt of so many jokes. While there is no denying his behavior was bizarre, he still seemed so gentle-not someone who’d traumatize these young boys. It’s all so sad. 

[Razzberry]

1 hour ago, Giant Misfit said:

I read an article yesterday that Madame Tussaud's has no plans to scrap the Jackson wax figure and it seems that Cirque du Soleil has no plans on scrapping the One show at Mandalay Bay in Las Vegas. So, it seems the general public is still at ease with scuttling Jackson's monstrous behavior in its never-ending quest for entertainment. It's just sad. I mean, in England, do they still revere Jimmy Saville? Do they still play Gary Glitter songs? 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Savile_sexual_abuse_scandal

This guy was so disgusting that his own family had his elaborate headstone destroyed and used for landfill. Allegations went back 50 years, yet he was "knighted"?  They must be handing those out like Halloween candy.

[Umbelina]

4 hours ago, SiobhanJW said:

Billboard Interview with Wade, James & Dan

The last part of this interview gave me the chills. 

Quote

Safechuck: I had the sense people were going to be looking to blame someone. [Jackson] wasn’t around to take any blame. So it’s going to fall on her. And my dad had just passed not that long before [the interview], so my mom was alone -- I’m not going to serve up my mom. So I tried to be as neutral as I could. Like, “You don’t have to do it. I don’t know what you’re going to get out of it. Really, nothing. Like, you’re going to get a lot of hate. So -- it’s your choice.”
But I also didn’t want her to do it and put up a strength that wasn’t there. Because the camera’s going to see through that. You have to be OK with not being liked or understood. You can’t try to convince them. So, [you have to ask], is she willing to be weak?
Reed: Does she have the strength to be weak?
Safechuck: Dan was like, “Let me just talk with her.” And then she really connected with him. Like, “OK, yeah, I get it. I like him.” Then she opened up to it.
Robson: I was nervous about having my mother be involved. One, I had a similar feeling that it wasn’t going to look good for her. Also due to my own set of confused feelings toward her, at that time. And also a concern of not knowing where she was in her own processing and understanding and healing. I didn’t feel confident that she was going to be in a place to be extremely raw and vulnerable. I thought maybe she was going to be a bit protective. But I couldn’t control that, and I understood that wherever she was at was where she was at. And that’s part of the story.
Reed: It was quite a long time with Joy [Robson’s mother]. The most important thing for me was never to push. Because then she would be recalcitrant. She would be recoiling. And I didn’t want that. And I think it was the #MeToo movement, and the rise of that, that finally convinced your mum to hit the green button.

Italics and underline mine.

That certainly did happen, maybe deserved in many ways obviously, but still...

It still bothers me that the mothers (probably because they were around to be filmed though) got the lions' share of the blame, with the fathers barely even mentioned in that context.

[TexasGal]

2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

It still bothers me that the mothers (probably because they were around to be filmed though) got the lions' share of the blame, with the fathers barely even mentioned in that context.

It really struck me in the Oprah interview how clearly uncomfortable James was with discussing anything about his mother.  You could tell they have issues but he didn't want to air them.   He seemed so protective of her. Wade I guess has had longer to come to terms with his mother's behavior and that she needs to be responsible for what she did.

I finally figured out who I think James looks like - David Tennant.

[Fallacy]

I’ve watched the film and the Oprah follow up twice now. As a fellow victim (not or Jackson of course, but of child sexual abuse), I want everyone I love to see both so they can truly understand what happened to me. Watch the faces of the people in the audience as they listen to the men. They know exactly what these men are talking about; they’ve been there too. 

And I adore Oprah for really getting at why victims keep the secret for so long even when directly asked on multiple occasions. That was me until I had my first child. And when Oprah mentioned the sons as being the major trigger for these men to speak out, I noticed several people in the audience nod along because they too shared that experience. 

The one point that really struck me too is that all of it is just magnified so much because of the superstar/celebrity factor. People find accusations hard to believe when they’re made against just some person they know at work, and now we are asking die hard fans who have loved Jackson for decades to believe he did the worst thing imaginable. I think they know the truth too, but it will take them time to admit it. 

I will never listen to Jackson’s music again. Because of my own history, it’s too triggering. But I also struggle to understand those who can still enjoy his music even though they believe he is a pedophile. I’m trying to be like Oprah and see the idea that Jackson can be a musical genius worthy of our appreciation for his music and a pedophile, but to me, the fact that he abused these children wipes out any good he ever produced in this world entirely. 

[Razzberry]

I think perhaps these mothers took the more active role in raising the kids, as is often the case, especially in the entertainment industry, but yeah, the fathers were around as well.   Pop star or not, I can't imagine MJ passing the smell test with any parent. 

[Blakeston]

I didn't realize, prior to reading that Billboard interview, that James Safechuck's father was dead. No wonder he didn't appear in Leaving Neverland.

The photos in that Billboard article really drive home Jackson's physical "type." Robson and Safechuck look pretty damn similar there, and in that photo of Safechuck as a little boy, he looks just like a young Jonathan Spence.

I suspect Michael had two types - the "all American boy" look exemplified by Safechuck and Spence, and the black-haired, dark-eyed, olive-skinned Mediterranean-looking type exemplified by Brett Barnes and Omer Bhatti. The boys in the latter category tended to look like mini-Michaels.

::shudder::

3 hours ago, Giant Misfit said:

I read an article yesterday that Madame Tussaud's has no plans to scrap the Jackson wax figure and it seems that Cirque du Soleil has no plans on scrapping the One show at Mandalay Bay in Las Vegas.

If I was looking for a fun, enjoyable tourist attraction, one of the last things I'd want to do is watch a show about Michael Jackson at Mandalay Bay, of all places. They might as well just throw in a root canal, and some footage of those schoolchildren watching the Challenger explosion.

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

It still bothers me that the mothers (probably because they were around to be filmed though) got the lions' share of the blame, with the fathers barely even mentioned in that context.

1 hour ago, Razzberry said:

I think perhaps these mothers took the more active role in raising the kids, as is often the case, especially in the entertainment industry, but yeah, the fathers were around as well.   Pop star or not, I can't imagine MJ passing the smell test with any parent.  

I think in Safechuck's case his father absolutely deserves exactly the same amount of blame. Even if Mom was spending more time with the kid at home, this isn't a situation where that was required. All the rules of "traditional" fatherhood (that is, the idea that dad's the provider) it's dad's job to keep random men from sleeping with and molesting their sons. Plus from what was said, James' father was absolutely right there enjoying the perks and noticing that his presidential suite was getting farther and farther away from his son's bed. It seems like he got to enjoy the ride and avoid all the pain--James didn't even talk about telling the truth to his father. He told his mother and she kept it secret because he asked for that. Then he died. So Mom definitely deserves more credit, imo.

In Wade's case, of course, his dad can't be completely absolved since he agreed to leave Wade at Neverland during their trip to the US, but his illness did also seem to incapacitate him. And he certainly didn't seem to get anything out of the family's ties to Jackson. Seems like it brought nothing but pain and suffering to him even at the time.

[Razzberry]

Very good points, Sistermagpie.  The doc focused so little on the fathers that perhaps I unfairly discounted their culpability.

[Umbelina]

When both families met MJ, both mother and father were working parents.  I can't link to that, but read it or maybe it was even in the documentary, neither mother was a stay at home mom at that time.  Just FYI.

The Australian dad did try to stop them from returning to the USA, was obviously a mess, he's the one who took his own life, right?  Sorry, I still get the moms and dads confused.

[sistermagpie]

24 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

The Australian dad did try to stop them from returning to the USA, was obviously a mess, he's the one who took his own life, right?  Sorry, I still get the moms and dads confused.

Yes, that was him. He was devastated when the family left Australia and later killed himself. I think in that interview Wade even links the two, saying that his becoming what Michael said he would be etc. was the reason for leaving Australia, the reason his father killed himself etc. Like he felt as if he had to be what Michael said he would be because this is what everyone had been sacrificed for. The guy sounded like he was often just running himself ragged knowing that.

It was amazing how both men talked about how stuff they were doing was just a step along the path of fulfilling Michael's empty prophecy--like being in the band, for James, was a way to direct music videos and then movies. Wade's work as a choreographer was just a way to get to direct movies. Until eventually James, especially, was like...wait, did I even want that ever? Because it honestly never sounded like he did. (He was so young he probably hadn't even thought about it.)

[Robert Lynch]

That mock interview with James solidified that MJ was a master manipulator. James sounded so confused doing it. I know that recording was years ago, but it was so much wrong there. He even left a telephone recording to Wade with a faux Aussie accent. Sick and manipulative.

[Kostgard]

5 hours ago, Fallacy said:

I’ve watched the film and the Oprah follow up twice now. As a fellow victim (not or Jackson of course, but of child sexual abuse), I want everyone I love to see both so they can truly understand what happened to me. Watch the faces of the people in the audience as they listen to the men. They know exactly what these men are talking about; they’ve been there too. 

And I adore Oprah for really getting at why victims keep the secret for so long even when directly asked on multiple occasions. That was me until I had my first child. And when Oprah mentioned the sons as being the major trigger for these men to speak out, I noticed several people in the audience nod along because they too shared that experience. 

I do wish both were required viewing. I was lucky enough to not suffer the same kind of abuse, so this has been a huge education for me on how it happens (grooming, etc) and how survivors behave in the aftermath. I don’t think I’ve ever seen it spelled out quite the way it is in this film. And I’m sure for survivors it is something of a relief to see a story similar to their own, and know that there’s nothing “wrong” with them for how they feel (it’s common) and they aren’t alone.

That Billboard interview was good, especially since everyone seemed a lot more comfortable. The Oprah interview is so important, but it was hard to watch them both seemingly on the verge of tears, with Wade staring at his shoes a good chunk of the time and James literally flinching in response to some questions (seriously - watch his reaction when Oprah first asks him about the “wedding”. And he actually does flinch when they talked about the “interview” on the way back from Hawaii). In the Billboard interview they get to talk about some “good” stuff a bit more.

As for MJ, if you stop to think about it, it is clear he was a master manipulator. His career is a reflection of that. Even the best artist in the world needs good marketing, and that usually comes from the artist themselves (Madonna had a gift for it) or they are surrounded by managers who are masters of marketing (I think this is the case with, say,  Britney). I don’t recall MJ ever having some sort of Svengali type manager,  and it appears most of it came from him. No man-child could have crafted that career. He knew what he was doing.

And I’m sure that rolls into the guilt and shame his victims feel. Even though they were kids, they probably feel like chumps for being duped. MJ told them he loved them and they were special and oh-so-talented and totally going to be the next Spielberg! Then they discover that he was saying the exact same thing to another kid. And who knows how many others. That’s gotta hurt like hell and you probably can’t help but feel dumb for believing him.

Edited March 22, 2019 by Kostgard

[Baby Button Eyes]

It disturbs me that MJ’s own sons fit the “type” he liked his boys to be. Prince was light skinned and has his hair dyed platinum as a youngster and the youngest, Blanket, has the darker olive complexion, Mediterranean look with dark hair. 

[methodwriter85]

Quote

I suspect Michael had two types - the "all American boy" look exemplified by Safechuck and Spence, and the black-haired, dark-eyed, olive-skinned Mediterranean-looking type exemplified by Brett Barnes and Omer Bhatti. The boys in the latter category tended to look like mini-Michaels.

::shudder::

Robson seemed to fall into the latter category despite having had light hair as a little kid. He and his sister both inherited the olive skin and big dark eyes with thick eyelashes from their dad.

It does kind of make me wonder if anything did happen with Emmanuel Lewis, just because he really wasn't Michael's type. It also made me wonder why nobody seemed to notice that for someone who claimed to love kids so much, why were his constant "pals" all boys and why were none of them fat, disabled, disfigured, etc etc etc?

3 hours ago, Baby Button Eyes said:

It disturbs me that MJ’s own sons fit the “type” he liked his boys to be. Prince was light skinned and has his hair dyed platinum as a youngster and the youngest, Blanket, has the darker olive complexion, Mediterranean look with dark hair. 

I mean, if you think about it, Debbie Rowe is a blue-eyed blonde and the possible donor looks pale. (And Prince in my opinion looks very similar to Terry George, who is the first of MJ's documented young friends.) And Blanket had different donors which means he probably going for the second type of look he liked. Ugh, ugh, and ugh.

There's been speculation in this thread that Jackson deteriorated so fast in his last years because he started feeling attracted to his sons (who were 7 and 12) and it served as a mirror for what he had chosen to do with his life.

[DuckyinKy]

9 hours ago, Baby Button Eyes said:

It disturbs me that MJ’s own sons fit the “type” he liked his boys to be. Prince was light skinned and has his hair dyed platinum as a youngster and the youngest, Blanket, has the darker olive complexion, Mediterranean look with dark hair. 

I think it is clear to anyone who has a set of eyeballs (and my husband just has one and he can see it) MJ did not father his children. And for the life of me I can't figure out why? He could have easily, unless there was a medical condition getting in the way. That doesn't at all mean they are not his children, and they seem to have adored him. So many mysteries. Anyone remember him talking about when Blanket was born? MJ said he picked him up after birth and walked out of the hospital with him as soon as he was born. Clearly he only had concerns for himself. 

[qtpye]

26 minutes ago, DuckyinKy said:

I think it is clear to anyone who has a set of eyeballs (and my husband just has one and he can see it) MJ did not father his children. And for the life of me I can't figure out why? He could have easily, unless there was a medical condition getting in the way. That doesn't at all mean they are not his children, and they seem to have adored him. So many mysteries. Anyone remember him talking about when Blanket was born? MJ said he picked him up after birth and walked out of the hospital with him as soon as he was born. Clearly he only had concerns for himself. 

As a woman of color, I always felt that MJ did not want black children due to issues with his father and other types of self hate. I think the skin disease was a convenient excuse. The man could literally buy children and he wanted to buy children who had white privilege.

[doodlebug]

47 minutes ago, DuckyinKy said:

I think it is clear to anyone who has a set of eyeballs (and my husband just has one and he can see it) MJ did not father his children. And for the life of me I can't figure out why? He could have easily, unless there was a medical condition getting in the way. That doesn't at all mean they are not his children, and they seem to have adored him. So many mysteries. Anyone remember him talking about when Blanket was born? MJ said he picked him up after birth and walked out of the hospital with him as soon as he was born. Clearly he only had concerns for himself. 

I think it is quite possible that he did use donor sperm for all of them.  Prince Michael appears to have vitiligo just like Michael did, but, of course, with MJ's money, finding a donor with that specific problem could be done.  If, in fact, Michael was placed on female hormones to help him to sing in the higher registers, it could have affected his sperm count and the sperm he did produce would have decreased motility.  He could've donated sperm for the insemination procedure but it just didn't work because he was subfertile or infertile.  It's also possible that MJ wasn't fertile for a mundane reason, about 20% of men have some sort of issue that decreases their fertility.

And, of course, if one thinks that he truly was the worst of the worst; if one of the reasons he had children was so that he would have young boys available to him 24/7, perhaps he didn't want them to be genetically his.  He was a sick puppy, after all.

We're probably never going to know, though, I doubt the kids will be DNA tested, let alone that the results would be made public.

I also agree with the poster upthread that Michael had some major psychologic issues with race and he might've just wanted kids who weren't African American.  We know that he at the very least, wanted biracial kids with his first two.  Otherwise, he could've found a woman other than a fair skinned, fair haired Caucasian to donate an egg to him and even carry a baby if those traits weren't important..  Getting a donor egg from someone from whom he could remain anonymous and then using a surrogate. also anonymously, could've been done and probably would've been a better fit for someone like him.

Edited March 22, 2019 by doodlebug

[ari333]

Was  Gavin dark haired and olive skin? 

[Razzberry]

re: the mothers

I've been reading dozens of articles trying to sort this out with no luck. Historically mothers are too often blamed whenever something bad happens, but I'm not convinced that's the case here.  The fathers just didn't have the time or the relationship with Jackson that the mothers did. 

From Slate:

"The mothers of Safechuck and Robson, both of whom gave extensive interviews for the film, come across as pushy managers eager to compromise their family relationships and their children’s safety for access to stardom and a life of luxury. Both took their kids out of school for weeks at a time to follow Jackson around. Both accepted lavish trips and gifts from Jackson—including, in the case of Safechuck’s mother, an entire house. And both ended up basically transferring parental duties to Jackson for prolonged periods of time."  

Rolling Stone asks: How Culpable are the Parents?
 

[izabella]

1 hour ago, doodlebug said:

I think it is quite possible that he did use donor sperm for all of them.  Prince Michael appears to have vitiligo just like Michael did, but, of course, with MJ's money, finding a donor with that specific problem could be done. 

I don't see that at all.  Do you have pictures or something that leads you to believe that?

Edited March 22, 2019 by izabella

[Razzberry]

11 hours ago, DuckyinKy said:

Anyone remember him talking about when Blanket was born? MJ said he picked him up after birth and walked out of the hospital with him as soon as he was born. Clearly he only had concerns for himself. 

Yes!  I can't believe the hospital allowed him to do that.   And for such a good dancer he came across as incredibly clumsy when handling his children.

 

I'm skeptical about his "vitiligo". Has it ever been confirmed by credible medical sources?  It usually leaves very patchy skin and I don't recall ever seeing this on him. Over the years he just got gradually whiter, but that's not how it works. 

[sistermagpie]

26 minutes ago, Razzberry said:

I've been reading dozens of articles trying to sort this out with no luck. Historically mothers are too often blamed whenever something bad happens, but I'm not convinced that's the case here.  The fathers just didn't have the time or the relationship with Jackson that the mothers did. 

But would that make the fathers less culpable? To me it just makes them culpable in a different way. 

Sure it was the mothers who were interested in knowing Michael themselves and who were pushier about their kid's career. It was entirely Joy Robson's idea to split up her family and use Jackson and Wade as her ticket to LA--nobody seems to have been under any illusion then that she wanted a new life for herself and not making some big sacrifice for Wade. The distance was the one thing protecting him for a while. Wade's father was taken out of the picture against his will and then really didn't have a way of knowing what was going on, so he's a special case.

But if Safechuck just left it up to his wife to take responsibility for anything that might be going on between his kid and Michael Jackson then he gave up his parenting duties just as much as she did. It's not like he didn't know his kid was on tour with Jackson or sleeping with him in a different hotel suite. One could just as easily say that it reflects better on the mothers that Jackson put a lot of effort into convincing them he was harmless and that he cared about them and their family rather than just assuming they'd give him the same access as a stranger, like Dad. 

[Kostgard]

1 hour ago, ari333 said:

Was  Gavin dark haired and olive skin? 

Yes. Both he and Jordy Chandler fall into that category.